Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Good afternoon guys and dolls.

The subject was brought up in my 'Do you find it difficult to treat the unpassables as female?' thread here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18805.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18805.0.html)

Do you treat men and women differently?
If so, how?
In what ways?
In what ways do you treat those of your own gender differently?
In what ways do you treat those of your opposite gender differently?

Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?
Or members of the opposite gender?
Are there things you won't say around members of a certain gender?
Subjects you avoid?
Behaviours you avoid?
Are there certain activities (other than the obvious ::)) you would rather engage in with members of a certain gender?
If so, why?

If you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this?
Are there any exceptions?

I realize these things are instinctual and not things most ponder at all, but let's think about them and explore them.
Please state your gender - male, female, or androgyne. That will bring a better perspective on where you're coming from.



^{This thought provoking topic was brought to you by 107.6 N.E.R.O. Bringing you the best in inspired rants and thought provoking topics non-stop, every hour on the hour with no commercial breaks.}

Very much so..
When I`m around guys they think I`m the crazyest and toughest one.
When I`m around all girls I be more myself and relaxed. This gets me asked if I`m gay. When the answer is no they say , " there is somthing about you, I just can`t put my finger on it".
  I have a good act around guys. It is getting really tiring though.
The diffrance to me is I am tired and try to be myself as much as possible. I don`t mind being ask if I`m gay, I just hate being called a ->-bleeped-<- out of a point of disrespect.

QuoteIf you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this?
Are there any exceptions?

Are we talking male and female privilege?

Working as a manager/engineer I had more female engineers working with me than males. I would treat both the same. I would think only if there was a special reason to treat someone different, as everyone has individual qualities that you would address differently only to them as the situation might call for.

If you are talking about a sexual motive then that is a different dance.

Having emotional as well as social intelligence helps in dealing with anyone. Remember everyone looks at the moment a little different and it usually does not have to do with gender.  Lisa  ( you should understand my gender from my name and the little symbol) 

Do you treat men and women differently?
No not really.

Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?
No more no less.

Or members of the opposite gender?
See above.

Are there things you won't say around members of a certain gender?
No not really.

Subjects you avoid?
Well I tailor my discussion towards the person not the gender.

Behaviours you avoid?
no.

Are there certain activities (other than the obvious ::)) you would rather engage in with members of a certain gender?
If so, why?

not really.

If you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this?
Are there any exceptions?

I think it's because I've lived my life on diffrent parts of the gender line so I can see the merits of everyone.  My gender doesn't make me blind to other gender expressions.

And I'm female.

Ya.  I'm cautious around men.  Women are safer.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 09, 2007, 04:20:51 PM

QuoteIf you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this?
Are there any exceptions?

Are we talking male and female privilege?

No. Just if you treat someone differently or behave in a different manner when around a certain gender.

This is a good thread idea, because so many people were saying in the other thread that they treat women diffrently from men, and then trans diffrent from that.

Probably to expand the question, we could also ask how you respond to various people in the trans community, and how does that differ from people who aren't a part of that community.

Quote from: Nero on September 09, 2007, 03:16:16 PM
Do you treat men and women differently?
Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?

This implies there are only two genders? And this assumes all transpeople fit into the same binary genders? If so, short answers? No and women. Longer answers? I treat people individually as the quote goes, "by the content of their character...", irrespective of their gender, race, ethnicity, etc., and by how they treat others. I've always been far more comfortable in the company of women, but I also recognize my experience by birth and socialization is different and I can't fully share the same life experiences.

--Susan--

I'm going to give a vague response here, but in short I don't think anyone treats men and women equally.  No matter what one or the other will always be treated in a different way.  Not always bad, but just saying that it's different for both genders I believe.

gender roles are expressed differently.  society has conditioned us to regard people based on this difference.

lisagurl, you said you treat people individually, but also said you feel more comfortable with women. That mean you as a whole treat women differently than men.

I don't know why anyone would say they treat everyone exactly the same way. And I also don't know why treating people differently is seen as bad for some?

Do you react the same way with a 90 year old woman than a 17 year old teen, if not, does that make you an age bigot, or simply someone who adapts to your assumed audience. You could be wrong and the teen is an avid watcher of the antique roadshow and the older women likes to watch x-treme sports on TV, but you surely start from an initial assumption about both.

We respond to people's individuality, that's just a superset of this same individuality. Many of our reactions have so long been imbred into us by genetics and social conditioning, that a different reaction is a given.

Quote from: Nero on September 09, 2007, 03:16:16 PM
Do you treat men and women differently?
If so, how?
In what ways?

I relate to people as individuals. But stating that, there are very big differences between the way I talk to women and men, the style of how I relate to women and men, and even the physical way I relate to women and men. Apart from one male friend who I'm very close to, I'm far more emotionally intimate with women. I will talk about far more personal aspects of my life with women than with men. I feel I'm much more comfortable being vulnerable around women on average. The things I joke about with men and women are different. I would joke about certain physical things around women which I wouldn't joke about with men. However, I might joke about a guy's body in a way that I wouldn't joke about a woman's body... or, at least, I'd do it very differently. On average, I'm more intimidated by men, although I've been intimidated by certain women in extreme positions of power, but not in the same way as a powerful man. I'm more impatient with men concerning emotionally-charged subjects. I assume women will intuit more from what I'm saying than men. I'm therefore, more literal when I communicate with men. Even though I know it's sexist, I do assume certain different knowledge sets from men and women, and I expect they'll be communicated in very different ways. Men, for me, tend to be very pedantic and lecturing. Women tend to take things way more personally. I gossip more with women. I'm sexually attracted to men in a way I'm not attracted towards women. A man can potentially have more power over me than a woman can. I think a man can hurt me more than a woman can. But I tend to feel more resentful towards men than I do towards women. It goes on and on...

Quote
Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?

I am way more comfortable around women. But that said, I would be very sad if I were ONLY around women. Men have such a different view of the world, a different sense of humor, different sense of intelligence and sensitivity, that the world would be a flat place without them. They're more capable of being silly and less self-conscious, which is so important. But I have extreme discomfort about the male style of aggression and competitiveness whereas I feel I have a pretty firm perspective about female aggression and competitiveness. On average, women are more communally-based, and that's what I'm most comfortable in. I prefer working in groups. In general, I feel way more vulnerable around men even though I feel more comfortable being vulnerable around most women.

QuoteAre there things you won't say around members of a certain gender?
Subjects you avoid?

Men are slower. When I speak with women we can go very fast, we flit around subjects or go back and forth on something so quickly. Men seem more ponderous. Sometimes it feels like pulling teeth to get them to just come out with what they're saying. That doesn't mean what they ultimately say is of less value, it's just not at the same speed. On average, women take things very personally but men feel more wounded when you disagree with them. They view differences of opinion as more of a put-down whereas I think women view another woman's difference of opinion as some form of competition.

I will be more critical or appreciative in a deeply personal way with women. I feel I have to tiptoe around men's egos more. The exception is talking about bodies or certain 'issues of bad taste' where I feel men don't take things as personally.

QuoteBehaviours you avoid?

I don't touch men as much unless it's someone I'm really interested in. I touch women way more than men, hold hands, link arms, am sillier with women. Unless it's a guy I'm really attracted to.

QuoteAre there certain activities (other than the obvious ::)) you would rather engage in with members of a certain gender?

Sometimes, I feel as if men can be more objective about certain things. Women do, on average, seem more self-critical and pick everything apart (I definitely do this). There are times when you need to get things done in a straightforward, gung-ho, uncomplicated way and I think men tend to do this better. I think men are less whiny than women. Way less whiny.

My identity is straight, female.

This is a wonderful thread, Nero. You totally deserve a 'plus' for proposing it.

ciao bambino,
Gina M.

Quote from: Nero on September 09, 2007, 06:06:40 PM

Quote from: lisagurl on September 09, 2007, 04:20:51 PM

QuoteIf you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this?
Are there any exceptions?

Are we talking male and female privilege?

No. Just if you treat someone differently or behave in a different manner when around a certain gender.

It is not the gender but a host of evaluations that make up an individual such as authority, age, education, dress, even things like smell and smoking, posture, choose of words,  face expressions, history, etc. I would hesitate to lump people into a general gender type cast. I have met ruthless women and sensitive men. Intelligent young people and immature old people. women into sports and men who sew. If anything I pretty much find stereo types have very few interesting qualities. I treat people the way they treat me plus a little touch of spice. My behavior is not controlled by anyone but myself. I also lack many manners but I am full of the unexpected. I couldn't care less about sex so that takes a lot of pressure off the game play or learning the art of dating.

Ok I will have to be honest here
I like to be around men much more than females. I like the attention I get from a man. I don't demand anything, but they will open doors for you, bend over backwards to help you with things. In return for this attention I do things with them that they like to do. I like to fish, work on my car, and I am a good listener of bull sh_ _. Most have a very good line.

Women on the other hand are great to go shoping with, because men hate going into womens stores to shop. Now if you go to Victorias Secrets  >:Dyour man may want to tag along.

To answer the direct question yes I do treat men different from women

Deb

Of course I don't treat them the same.  I would also scratch anyone if he/she treats me like I man.  I relate much better to females.  Almost all my friends are women, except for two cutie pies that are male!  >:D  ;)

Men? I do like them very much too.  I couldn't live without them (romantically speaking); besides, a girl has to have some eye candy all the time... :P

tink :icon_chick:

When you say that you treat men and women the same, it doesn't mean that you treat men like women, and women like men.  It just means in the way you treat them, gender is not a defining charastetic in terms of how you will interact with them.

I discriminate more in terms of sense of humor, political leanings, religious beliefs, and those sorts of things.  I probably have close to a 50/50 split in terms of male friends to female friends, and I can't really think of much in the way of how I treat them. 

Women are still often paid less. We are generally not considered as much as men for higher positions and those of authority. There has always been that "glass ceiling" for many women with careers that they have a hard time getting through. If a woman is unmarried people seem to feel that it isn't OK, and that she needs to find a man... If she doesn't want kids, people wonder why. But few people question men who are the same. Heck, they finally have the first woman "speaker of the house" in the U.S. government...the highest position a woman has held, and only now does it happen. And they have to go on about it like it's so out of the norm of how something normally is...for cripe sake, she's a human being, no big deal.

Whatever women were (are) about is generally viewed as lower than that of men...that one probably bothers me most. Even we do it ourselves. Like with children still today, a girl can play fine with "boy toys" and there is no issue, but girl toys are considered way too low and inferior for any boy to play with.

Not to say men don't have negative sides to deal with too...I just can't speak much for men. Although I feel the guys have been treated too much like drones to be worked to death and are to have no inner anything, to suppress things that are normal to any human. And now that some men are considering being to stay at home dads...and society takes issue with this new concept and the men that would do it... (because it's a "woman thing" and too low for a man to do...)

All in all, I do treat men and women differently too.  We still live in a sexist world.

Do I treat men and women differently?

Yes, doesn't everyone? As soon ask do I treat people of color differently, being causcasoid.

Of course I do. I may not mean to do so. I may not treat people of color differently in regard to how I listen to them, how I judge or do not judge them. But, I may be more watchful: at least in regard to how I might step on a toe unintended, say some rather gauche thing without meaning to be hurtful or rude.

I am that way with my Albanian next door neighbors as well. I do not understand their culture. I tread carefully when I approach them, or they me. Not because I am afraid or hateful, just because of what I do not know.

To some extent the same is true for men. I do not trust men. I feel I have good reason not to do so. Is that a sort of prejudice against all men because of the actions of a few?

Why, yes it is. That is exactly what it is. Is it fair? Probably not. But, I do so anyway, because the distrust runs very deeply. It has been a source of abiding pain for me. I do not forget and forgive it easily and matter-of-factly.

It is all well and good to think that I should always be fair in my judgements. But, who among us can wipe away his or her past, his or her responses to what we feel comfortable, familiar and safe with or toward? Those are very difficult things to change, to ameliorate. Over time it is possible with a consciousness of one's deeply-seated prejudice to recognize that prejudice, that comfort and familiarity and make allowances for those who do not receive it from me.

But, again, to make such an accomodation and to have such a recognition is to make an allowance I do not have to make for many others. In making that accomodation I am treating that person, that group, differently than I treat those I am more familiar, comfortable and safe with.

Yes, Nero, I treat men differently. I treat all sorts of people differently. I expect we all do, whether we realize that or not.

Nichole W.

Quote from: regina on September 10, 2007, 10:18:36 AM
However... it  amazes how often most people are pretty predictable in terms of their gender behaviors. I have two male friends (not my best male friend who lives far away from me, but still long-standing friends I care about) who sometimes invite me to go to movies with them. They are always 'guy' movies and can pretty much guarantee they aren't going to be movies I'm even vaguely interested in seeing. I will also say I have one woman friend (a dyke) who always wants to see really trashy, blockbuster commercial films and is really into horror movies which are also totally not my thing either.

ciao,
Gina M.

So what kind of films are your thing? :)

Quote from: Nero on September 09, 2007, 03:16:16 PM
If you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this?
Are there any exceptions?

I realize these things are instinctual and not things most ponder at all, but let's think about them and explore them.
Please state your gender - male, female, or androgyne. That will bring a better perspective on where you're coming from.

I treat everyone the same, as a fellow human being first, be they male, female, or other. I don't identify as either gender. I truly dislike when people make assumptions about who they might think I might be because of my perceived gender, and automatically treat me a certain way based on their preconceived ideas. I endeavor to not treat anyone in a way that I don't wish to be treated. I'm not perfect, and I likely don't always succeed, but that's what I aspire to.

I was born and raised in a northern state, and lived in the rural south for many years. During my time there I got to know various people and realized that my preconceived notions about southerners were wrong. I have friends of many walks of life; straight, gay, trans, male, female, some with whom I share religious or political beliefs, and some with whom we both just "agree to disagree". My world is much richer because of my diverse friends.

Zythyra

Well, men usually treat me differently from how women do. Am I supposed to pretend that doesn't happen?

Quote from: Hypatia on September 11, 2007, 06:56:32 AM
Well, men usually treat me differently from how women do. Am I supposed to pretend that doesn't happen?

Thank you so much for writing this. How we treat the world is only half the equation, it's also how the world treats us. Goes both ways.

ciao,
Gina M.

Quote from: regina on September 10, 2007, 10:18:36 AM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 10, 2007, 12:14:32 AM
When you say that you treat men and women the same, it doesn't mean that you treat men like women, and women like men.  It just means in the way you treat them, gender is not a defining charastetic in terms of how you will interact with them.

I discriminate more in terms of sense of humor, political leanings, religious beliefs, and those sorts of things.  I probably have close to a 50/50 split in terms of male friends to female friends, and I can't really think of much in the way of how I treat them. 

If you identify yourself as a lesbian (which you do in your profile), then it would seem you're already dealing with genders differently. If you're more sexually interested in one gender than another, how can you not treat that gender differently? The mere fact that one gender provides you with a pool of people you could be attracted to and the other gender doesn't is a big difference right there.

Well I don't know if I'm a lesbian or not.  I think I may be pansexual, because I can see the beauty and be attracted to anyone regardless of gender expression.  Though I mean, I don't have the biggest sex drive anyways, so it's usually not a factor in my dealings with people.  But certainly if I'm romantically attracted to someone, vs. not, I'm going to act differently.  But that's not a gendered thing.  That's to do with attraction.

Quote
Yes, I filter friends by their sense of humor, politics, spiritual views, taste and style, whether they have kids or not, depth of understanding and certain common interests. But I also totally filter them by gender.  I do allow a lot of leeway for that individual and what our relationship is. Sometimes we have certain things in common (kids) and other things not in common.

I mean, I definitely like, will note gender expression at times, but gender is not a primary thing for setting how i deal with people.  There are other aspects that influence me to a much greater degree in determining how I treat others.  To the extent that I can't really think of many ways in which I treat either gender.

Do you treat men and women differently?
No..

Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?
Which is?

Or members of the opposite gender?
I get on with both genders.....but mostly better with women...

Are there things you won't say around members of a certain gender?
No.

Subjects you avoid?
Talking about myself...

Behaviours you avoid?
Agressive people.....


Are there certain activities (other than the obvious ::)) you would rather engage in with members of a certain gender? If so, why?
What is the obvious? you don't know me so I might not have an obvious activity...


If you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this? Are there any exceptions?
I don't treat everyone the same and too much enphasis is put on gender....some men are different to other men....some women are different to other women..

Everyone is equal in my life no matter of sex,colour, sexualtiy, whatever! everyone is welcome and treated the same!

Do you treat men and women differently?
I treat women with respect like women should be treated by a man.

If so, how?
Holding doors, etc. Just be courteous.

In what ways do you treat those of your own gender differently?
Since I transitioned and I'm seen as male all the time I treat other guys more like pals now. I always longed to roughhouse and talk about guy stuff with other guys and now I can.

In what ways do you treat those of your opposite gender differently?
I'm more like a typical guy around ladies now, not like a 'lesbian'.

Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?
Since transitioning, yes.

Or members of the opposite gender?
I don't like being around women as much.

Are there things you won't say around members of a certain gender?
No.

Subjects you avoid?
Sex, because I don't have the right plumbing yet.

Behaviours you avoid?
Nope.

Are there certain activities (other than the obvious ) you would rather engage in with members of a certain gender?
I wish I could play football like a normal guy...which is something I Never got to do.

If so, why?
I always wanted to do normal guy stuff as a child, and longed to play football.

I'm male.

Do you treat men and women differently?
If so, how?
Well, i'm more cautious around guys, but other then that not really. But I suppose given a choice between a guy and gilr to hang out with i'd choose the girl.

In what ways do you treat those of your own gender differently?
Since I assume the gender I dentify as, I guess I treat women with more trust.

In what ways do you treat those of your opposite gender differently?
I'm just more cautious around guys and don't open up as freely as I do with women.

Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?
Very.

Are there things you won't say around members of a certain gender?
Boys shouldn't hear about girl talk. ;)

Subjects you avoid?
I really try and avoid talking about the darker parts of my life and myself.

Behaviors you avoid?
Dancing, I don't dance and it would take someone very patient to ever convince me to.

Are there certain activities (other than the obvious Roll Eyes) you would rather engage in with members of a certain gender?
If so, why?
Not sure, I will hang out and do pretty much anything the group wants to do, within reason.

A very good question - it made me think. It opens a dozen other questions about what is exactly in the heads of the questioners? ;) How do women feel when they are asked questions like this - because women are better at open-ended questions but are regularly shot down if they don't follow the obvious line.

How long have women experienced the differences, and when did the dual standard first appear? It's clearly sexist in origin and partially patronising because it harks back to days when women were not educated. When was it first recorded and by whom?

Some of men's behaviour grew out being raised to respect women and in spite of women not appearing as equals, women were accomplished musicians and were expert needlewomen and pastrycooks. They were superb at 'their' work that men admired , Very few women had idle hands - many trained horses, milked 50 cows and raised 15 children.

Now, when we are used to working women, divorce and abortion, we forget it's only recently that all ladies were secretive about their ages, and a glimpse of stocking was shocking. The trolls pick up an ancient fragrance from the past and are still running with it. Like the men troubled by feminism, it's they have lost the the previous status of being special because they were male.

What I'm interested in, is the direct influence that has caused the present sexist, ageist and racist society and how we all contributed to it because time has passed too quickly for us to identify our part in the international problem. We have forgotten that women were called 'girls' out of respect when they reached 'a certain age'.

What I'd like for the future is recognition of the psychological differences bewteen the sexes, and respect given to each of them. It is happening at the top end of society, but there are too many grandchildren of the Second Wave feminists still floundering about wondering where they belong.  Okay, I've said too much but you asked ;)

H Kiera, Anti social? Nah, not hardly hon. I don't go out much where there are a lot of people but I don't believe that I am anti social, I am just a mostly at home body of my choosing. My soul mate does most of the running around doing business or shopping. I don't have any friends except for those on the web. This is again of my choosing. I certainly will not complain if a gentleman holds the door open for me or offer to help me Carry my bags to the car. Or being called Dear, Hon, Miss, Mam, sweets, or sweetheart. I think those are courtesies I believe I will always cherish, and I believe I have worked hard to deserve these terms of endearment.

As for preference of association well since I worked the better part of twenty years as a Social Worker with women I find it more comfortable talking with a woman especially about such things as feelings and emotions, men, and having babies..

Cindy

     

QuoteDo you treat men and women differently?
If so, how?
In what ways?
In what ways do you treat those of your own gender differently?
In what ways do you treat those of your opposite gender differently?

Are you more comfortable around members of your own gender?
Or members of the opposite gender?
Are there things you won't say around members of a certain gender?
Subjects you avoid?
Behaviours you avoid?
Are there certain activities (other than the obvious Roll Eyes) you would rather engage in with members of a certain gender?
If so, why?

If you feel you treat members of both genders the same, why do you think you do this?
Are there any exceptions?

I realize these things are instinctual and not things most ponder at all, but let's think about them and explore them.
Please state your gender - male, female, or androgyne. That will bring a better perspective on where you're coming from.



This thought provoking topic was brought to you by 107.6 N.E.R.O. Bringing you the best in inspired rants and thought provoking topics non-stop, every hour on the hour with no commercial breaks.

Thank you for this thought-provoking topic.

Yes, I treat men and women differently.  Men and women are different so I can see no reason to treat them alike.

HRT has changed my life in ways profound that include many subtleties and shades within them.  I do not see the world as I did in my birth gender.  Grandmother Estrogen has done me wonderful favors, not among the least of which is reconnecting me with all of the generations of women who who have gone before me.  It is their collective knowledge and behaviours that I allow me to circulate in the world at-large. 

We often communicate with one another in ways too subtle for a man to detect but another woman would rarely miss, like with smiles, nods, words that have been "lipped" but remain unspoken. 

I use whatever I find appropriate for communicating with another woman.  Biological functions become a shared experience among us so we govern ourselves accordingly.  Same with child-rearing.  I've never had any children yet I feel comfortable around the children of a woman I never met and I watch out for their children in public places.

The only thing that puts me ill-at-ease is the rules for passing a handshake.  Does anyone have any ideas about that?