Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Yes, I am  pre-transition transwoman. Despite being over 30 years old I still live at home with my dad and I do appreciate that unlike so many other trans people I have not been kicked out and disowned. But here's the "however":

These are actual quotes from my father

~You were not born trans, it only came about because of external factors.

~You have the "heart, spirit and 'hardware" of man. You were born a man and you are a man.

~People are not born gay. God made man and woman.

~Transition does not make people happy and does not help people to live fulfilling lives.

~Transexualism is a modern day thing. "People in the rainforest" never ran around "wanting to be women." When I explained to him the concept of "Two Spirit" we read about in Native American history, he said they were just really gay men.

~Most gay men want to be women. If most gay men could get SRS they would.

~(On telling him how many gay men in Iran are forced to undergo SRS or die and how many don't want surgery)  They are just like that because the care is bad and if they really didn't want SRS they would defect to another country.

~You are a man, transitioning into a woman is wrong.

~Faith drives all my decisions

~Wanting to transition into a woman is like a black person wanting to be white. It's the same thing.



And on and on....

And people wonder why I am so sad. They wonder why our lot is killed and kills themselves at frightening rates. How do I even begin to argue against the stupid crap like I have written above? Scary thing is people like him are a dime-a-dozen, they are in power making laws.

We have a LOOOOOOONG way to go.

I suggest you show him the research that proves that the transgender mind is physically different from a normal genetic male or female mind.  There are a few aspects that are different and that is before any hormones are taken. There are numerous articles out there on the research but here is one just to make it easy to find, https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/  (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/)

The write up here on development causes is good and might be helpful too http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/ (http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/)

It would be a lot easier if it was a choice.  The only consolation is that the peace and happiness I feel after accepting it and not fighting it is awesome. 

QuoteFaith drives all my decisions

This is the clincher. "Faith" may drive his decisions, but his decisions are not binding on you.

Mature minds (even religious ones) use reason, evidence, and logic in their decision-making process, and *always* allow for possible new information.

First off... your dad isn't being reasonable.  He's reacting to something he doesn't understand -- it seems wrong to him, so he's casting about for any old argument.  Reasoning with somebody who isn't being reasonable is a bit of a fool's errand, but we've gotta do it.

For that matter... transness isn't exactly reasonable -- it's just the way we are, and there's no real "explanation."  But it is "normal," in that it's fairly prevalent in all societies world 'round.  It seems to be more prevalent in societies with stricter gender boundaries... so transphobes may be to blame for our "condition."

I'm going to respond to his arguments point-by-point.  In part hoping to help you, in part for practice when I face the same crap from people.

~Whether or not you were born trans, or if it came about because of external factors, it's a reality of your life now.  Slamming yourself in the closet will probably result in suicide.  God says that you deserve your father's love.  God says your father shouldn't judge you, because he is also a sinner.

~You have the hardware of a man, your dad isn't qualified to determine what is in your heart or spirit.  You were born with the body of a man, and you are a woman.

~Gender and sexuality are different.  Born gay or not, trans is the question.  God made the first woman out of a man's body.

~Transition helps people live fulfilling lives.  Your dad's just making crap up.

~The notion that transness is a first world problem is just some colonial bull->-bleeped-<-.  Again, trans is not gay, except when a transdude likes dudes.

~So much is wrong with the Iran thing... does he have any idea of how hard it is to leave Iran?  Any idea of how much higher that barrier is for oppressed minorities?

~You are who you say you are, not who your dad says you are.  Transitioning is the right thing to do, if you will live a higher quality of life.  Your dad is currently a giant negative on your quality of life.  He has the power to transition his mind.

~Fear and hatred drives his actions, not faith.  Blaming God for his hatred is the opposite of faith -- it's blindly ignoring God's plea that he love you.

~Race is a matter of heritage... I'm not really sure how to address this one.

Wow, I honestly can't tell you anything about the rest of it...

The "black turning white" is an interesting one. There is a concept in many pre-Christian Nordic cultures of "ergi", wherein males who saw themselves as women were treated as women, and allowed to do "women-only" magic.

I can go into it more if you'd like, but Many pre-Christian Northern European societies had similar cultural phenomena.

 "Faith is somewhat like.......alcohol. Small amounts can make you feel better, large amounts can make you hurt others. And one should not be introduced to it too early."

This is just one of the many things my spiritual mentor told me before he left this world. I thought it would fit in here.

Quote from: Petti on July 27, 2015, 11:21:35 PM
We have a LOOOOOOONG way to go.

This is our fault. We have abdicated the responsibility of educating the world about us to the media and TV/Movie producers who have gotten it wrong for decades. We still let celebrities like Caitlyn Jenner and Laverne Cox who have TV shows to promote speak for us. This will continue until we, as a community, put a high priority on making sure everyone in the world understands why we do what we do. At that point there will still be people who refuse to learn, but there will be a lot fewer of them.

While I agree with you Suzi, I'd like to note that despite the large number of gay people involved in the entertainment industry at all levels it's only been in the last 15 years that depictions of gay people in movies and TV haven't revolved around massive stereotypes (and still do from time to time). So with the bulk of trans people only starting to emerge in self-awareness let alone in society I think it would have been hard for us to have had a louder voice before now.

As to the OP's dilemma... Petti, if you can put up with it then all well and good. Otherwise I'd be getting out of that unsupportive, potentially toxic environment.

It's so frustrating because I cannot reason with him. Every time I back him into  corner (which is often) he falls back on this "faith" stuff. I asked him has he even tried to learn about this stuff and he said he has a "good idea" based on life experience and this recent Jenner stuff. He has never read research that was linked earlier in this thread, never actually sat down and talked to a real transwoman or transman, but then latches on to these beliefs.

In a way Jenner is harmful because now that people have read a few articles here and thee they think they are experts or that Jenner is representative of us all.


I thought my dad was cool for not outright hating me for this stuff, but honestly the more I talk to him, the more I hate him. I dont mean that in a passive "I hate you" way. I mean I really am starting to not like him to the point where if anyone disowns anyone over this trans stuff it will be me disowning him.

I am going against someone who has learned about trans from what he calls "Drag Queens" who were in the streets as he grew up in Wash DC and from TMZ talking about Jenner. Do he knows it all. So frustrating.

Some people are truly so far gone and stupid/brainwashed they cannot be reasoned with or debated. It's like if I told you all 5X5=18 and the capital of Texas is Seattle. Then when you go on to explain I say "But god says it's wrong to see 5x5 as 25 and the capital of Texas as Austin"

This sounds like my father, I could've sworn you had been taking notes on our conversations, not your own!

You can't reason with people like that.  Offering scientific data is just adding fuel to the fire because they see science as without God and therefore unreliable.  I swear to you, that is almost the exact feelings that my dad presents with.  It's the best example of circular reasoning I've ever heard of.  They justify their position based on faith alone, which by its very definition requires no proof or evidence!

I have stopped talking to my dad.  I am sorry that you have to live with yours.  I fortunately didn't have much of a relationship with my father in the first place.  I will not even acknowledge his existence (except to exclude him from things like the birth of his grandchild) until he apologizes for the hateful things he has said to me.  My mother will come around somewhat, eventually (I hope), just no idea how long that will take.

So, I'm sorry that I don't have any advice to offer except to leave him behind.  He is negative and cancerous on your life.  There is no way to reason with him.  He just needs to decide if his love for you can outweigh his prejudices or not, and that takes time.

If you want to match him faith to faith then there is only one line in the Bible that speaks about "men dressing as women" and it's Deuteronomy 22:5  There is also Deuteronomy 23:1 that says if you lose your man bits you can't go to heaven or some such thing. 
But, that's the awesome book in the Bible that also tells you if you just happen to rape a virgin that you should pay her father 50 sheckles then marry her.  There are other wonderful (sarcasm) passages in Deuteronomy too (28:30) such as how you need to wear tassels, cannot make clothes that combine linen and wool and need to put battlements on the top of your house. 
Point being, being trans is not called out as bad in the Bible or at least nowhere somebody sane would reference.

If he's so religious then hit back with if he thinks it's okay to kill somebody while defending your house or country.  The Bible is far more expressive that you should not kill and even pray for those that persecute you.  This is called out in multiple places as well as the 10 commandments. 

In short, your father is choosing to ignore the Bible, is acting as a hypocrite and is creating his own religion.  He can't hide from this with logic, he can't hide from this with facts, and he can't even hide from it with religion.  He can only hide from it with ignorance.

I'm not religious at all but was raised in a religious household and am used to fighting these battles. 
Good luck Patti.  He's just having a hard time handling the change and is trying to hide behind religion. 

Here is a link to an emotional description of an accepting dad:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,192499.msg1716659.html#msg1716659

Well its up to you what you say...
you might think about showing...
and some people write a letter or email...

sometimes Cis people cannot relate, and imo its written in a way that people might get some restraints many people might have explained...


hugs

Sorry for my unsupportive post before. I somehow missed that all the quotes were from your father.

I feel sorry for the man. He has a wonderful daughter whom he seems incapable of understanding. It must be awful to go through life unable to face the truth and have to rely on falsehoods and misconceptions to make his world bearable.

I hope you can fill your life with things that help you feel true to yourself so that you're not dwelling on ignorance that you face so frequently.

Hugs.

Petti, Had to throw in my 2 cent's f.w.i.w. You didn't state why your still living at home ( could be a lot of reasons why )
Advice from someone who grew up with a very abusive father, if at all possible you need to distance yourself from him for YOUR mental well being. My opinion, he will never change. Distanced myself as much as possible from my father, it didn't repair the damage already done but it prevented increased damage. It's unfortunate but sometimes the only thing to do for YOU. Must say this is my view point based on my experience with my father who was pretty much a nutcase.

Hi,

Ask your dad, if he belives god wants us to be happy. (And work from ther)
Exspalin that it is impossible for you to be happy if you dont do this. (if it is the case)
Thats how I came out to my dad. I wrote about it here somwere. (a few times actually)

I asked my dad if he believed god wanted us to be happy.
I exsplained that I was misserable all my life, living for the purpose of making my father happy.
I exsplained that this missery was no longer bearable.
And that I could not be happy unless I choose to be happy, and that a life without happyness isnt worth living.

I also asked my dad if, he belived that god could understand woman? He said YES.
I then said, time and time again you have said to me, that any man claiming to understand women is a liar, was that false? He said no.
I then said to him, DID god creat man in his image? He said yes.
I then said, is god a man or a woman? he said god was a man.
I then said, how is it then that god can understand woman, if god is a man? I dont know he said.

I said, I think god is both, a man and a woman, aswell as both and neither. And that god created not our bodies in gods image but instead our souls. And that our souls are male and female, and our bodies mearly a vessal to reside within during life.

Im sorry if you dont understand, i know very little, but what little i do know is as follows,

Since I Was born I will die.
A life without happyness isnt worth living.
In order to live I need to be happy.
I love you dad, and want you to be happy too.

-------------------------------------

Im very lucky, to have a dad like mine. I know that how things whet with me wont be the same for everybody, but my dad was strict religious and still is to a great degree. I like to tell my story from time to time in hopes it ight give some people a way of aproaching a religios parent.

My dad freely admits he doesnt understand, but he accepts that I DO.
(on a side note one of my fathers religious commands is to obey the law of the land, meaning his religion tells him to use my LEGAL name)

Sorry if this doesnt help.

all fetuses start in the womb as female

I searched the internet finding some studies that point to a genetic component of transsexualism, and I found a some stuff. E.G.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

....And what CrysC linked for me in the first reply of this thread.


I wrote what amounted to a term paper and in it I went on to explain what the studies meant, cited them, etc. It was all for nothing and I have concluded that he cannot be reasoned with at all. Imagine, please, someone standing on the corner wrapped in sheets talking about how they were sent from 200 BCE to our time to educate the masses on how Mars is actually the Sun -- you have about a good a chance as reasoning with that person as my dad, and I give up! Look:

Here's what's frustrating. Faced with that science, he actually changed his stance that I was not born trans, but he went on -- like you guys won't believe this - he went on to say that If I pray and trust in god I can actually change the wiring of my brain. He went on about faith healers who have healed the blind and people who are cripple and therefore I can fix this problem by faith. He went on about people who were "delivered" from homosexuality and transsexualism. FML!

I asked him straight up "How do I fix myself?" and his response was simply by "trusting in god" and god can make me a regular man.

So sorry that I essentially use these forums as a blog, but it's somewhat of an outlet that relieves a bit of stress. I have no facebook, no real friends only a "buddy" (who doesnt understand trans either), no one to really listen... this is all I have and if anything let it serve as a record for anyone who goes through my stuff if I am never not around.


This ->-bleeped-<- hurts so much I just wanna go to a dark corner curl up and cry and disappear. I am so trapped. I need to get out of this place, but I am stuck.

As always I thank you girls for you help and being literally the only people I can talk to about this stuff.

I was somewhat reluctant to do this, but for funsies I will copypaste the letter I wrote to him. Sorry, I had to edit out some very personal/embarrassing stuff and just copypasting from word failed to get the footnotes, but you get the gist:

~~~~~~~

LETTER BEGINS


ON the Condition I Face:


PERHAPS THIS will take a bit of time to read, but I ask that you take about 20 or 30 minutes out your day to get a better understanding of this condition I face. It is a very real and serious condition and the Bible is about as equipped to deal with it as it is germ theory (in other words, not at all). And below I will prove it with sound science.  Please, humbly I ask, never laugh at me for this stuff or accuse me of putting on an act or of "wanting to be a woman." I am not joking, the Bible and some blathering moron talk show host like those parasites on TMZ know next to nothing of this and anyone supporting their thoughts on my condition based on faith/2,000 year old allegory and tabloid TV  is straight up dangerous. Please share this with [sister], but I ask that after you two read this, like any other thing I write, you destroy it in the shredder. Show this to no one, please destroy.

The condition I suffer from, that is being a transsexual, is not the result of some conscious decision or the result of external factors like being sexually abused or bullied as a child. At about 1% of the total human population, my transsexual lot clearly represents only a tiny fraction of the souls on this planet and as such we are understandably misunderstood. Adding to that, in the West, among other places, gender norms are fiercely and rigidly defended and enforced, so a general ignorance of the tiny 1% transsexual population coupled with what many if not most people believe and think they know about gender results in ideas that are often so wrong and so obtuse they literally hurt. This is undoubtedly one reason why our suicide rate is staggeringly high. 

It seems to me some of the science out there that addresses issues related to transsexuals is in the embryonic stages, but much of what I have learned points to a genetic component leading to transsexualism. Please read the following study:

Transsexuals have the strong feeling, often from childhood onwards, of having been born the wrong sex. The possible psycho-genie or biological aetiology of transsexuality has been the subject of debate for many years. Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals (which is what I am). The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

Here are the words of yet another study:

From an early age, people develop an inner sense of being male or female. Transsexuals however, identify with a physical sex opposite to their biological sex. Such individuals might seek to alleviate their distress by altering their bodies through hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery. The prevalence of transsexualism ranges from 1:2,900 to 1:100,000; and little is known about the etiology of this condition. Some theories have suggested that psychosocial factors - including dysfunctional family dynamics and traumatic childhood experiences - lead to the development of a transsexual identity.

Increasingly, biomedical research is implicating biological factors. Co-occurrence among twin pairs, father-son pairs, and brother-sister pairs raises the question of whether gender dysphoria is heritable. Anatomical studies show that certain brain structures in male-to-female transsexuals are more "female-like" in volume and neuronal density. Furthermore, the response to the odor of male and female steroids in male-to-female transsexuals was more similar to that of control women than control men. Other studies suggest that sex steroids influence gender identity. Female-to-male transsexuality has been associated with polycystic ovary syndrome and hyperandrogenemia. Moreover, female subjects with the disorder of sex development called congenital adrenal hyperplasia are exposed to high levels of androgens prenatally and seem to be at much higher risk of gender identity disorder than the general population. A significant association was identified between female-to-male transsexualism and the CYP17 gene (which encodes 17α-hydroxylase, the enzyme deficient in some virilized congenital adrenal hyperplasia patients). Aromatase (CYP19), the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen, has also been implicated in female gender identity. A 46, XX woman with congenital adrenal hyperplasia carried a null CYP19 mutation, was born with phallic enlargement, a uterus, and ovaries, and exhibited a persistent male gender identity and male gender role behavior.
There are few genetic association studies of male-to-female transsexualism. A study of 29 Swedish male-to-female transsexuals identified a significant association with a dinucleotide CA polymorphism in the estrogen receptor β (ERβ) gene (p = .03). It has been suggested that ERβ has a defeminization role in male brain and behavior, on the basis of knockout mouse studies. Altogether, genetic studies on transsexuals suggest that both androgen and estrogen might play a role in gender identity.

We sought to investigate whether sex steroidogenesis genes are associated with male-to-female transsexualism in the largest cohort collected to date. We analyzed the variable polymorphism lengths of three genes—androgen receptor (AR), ERβ, and CYP19—in Caucasian transsexuals and compared these with non-transsexual male control subjects.


Their results:

A significant association was identified between transsexualism and the AR allele, with transsexuals having longer AR repeat lengths than non-transsexual male control subjects (p = .04). No associations for transsexualism were evident in repeat lengths for CYP19 or ERβ genes. Individuals were then classified as short or long for each gene polymorphism on the basis of control median polymorphism lengths in order to further elucidate possible combined effects. No interaction associations between the three genes and transsexualism were identified.
Their conclusion:

This study provides evidence that male gender identity might be partly mediated through the androgen receptor. Here is a link to it all 

Okay that's the studies, this is me writing again. Now what all this means is pretty much I have no control over being trans, and TRUST ME if I had control over it I would not be trans as I wouldn't wish this on anyone. You know how much I fear surgery, etc. Do you actually think I want to have to get a major surgery, eternally dilate (use a dildo) on my so-called neo-vagina and pop hormones my entire life? No, I don't, but it sure beats this alternative which is misery so deep and dark I cannot even begin to put it in words. Please know I am not twirling around longing to fulfill some fantasy of "being a woman." I am a woman, I am one who cannot express herself as such and it's destroying my life. Now one of two things could happen here – we can find someone who knows how to rewire the human brain and give me the "heart, soul and spirit" of a man, or we can find someone who knows how to bring my body in line with my rather feminine mind. I assure you as it stands the latter is much easier to accomplish with hormones.

You seem to believe I am like this because of the abuse in [our old house], but the complete opposite is true. I didn't become trans because I was abused, I was abused because I was trans. Those dudes ate my ass alive, bro. Not so easy for them to get a regular girl, so I was the next best thing. I was called bitch, girl, ho, laughed at and teased more times than I even dare to count. I failed at football, karate, the USMC, because I was trying too hard to be something I wasn't and I just couldn't keep up.  You will NEVER truly learn about my condition from sexist, racist TMZ and quips about Caitlyn Jenner or Leverne Cox. You will never learn about my condition from your experience in the streets with the "Drag Queens" everyone there laughed at and hated (and probably secretly admired). Transsexualism is very, very deep and complex indeed.

You told me the other night I was "Full of it." You told me other times I was "Putting on an act"! I AM NOT JOKING!!! This is not game, this is not fun time, I am suffering from very real problems and I do not know how much longer I can continue in this state. I cannot rewire receptors or whatever in my brain, Dad. I was born trans, I will live trans, I will die trans. That's how your god made me. It's the hand I was dealt and it hurts to have some religion spread hate and intolerance about people like me. And when I do die, if I die before you of course, as I have done with [sister] you have it here in writing: I would much rather not have any reference to God, Jesus or the Bible to be written on my obituary or mentioned at my funeral or whatever fanfare is in store to celebrate my past "life." Why? The reason is because that religion, along with Islam and other such offenders, spreads intolerance and disdain for people like me merely because of our gender and/or sexuality. Right now transwomen suffer so much, and much of the thought that leads to that suffering is grounded in religion. I have demonstrated how I have no control over my transsexualism and the fact I am "condemned" for it is LAUGHABLE and sad at the same time. I cannot learn of these high assault, murder and suicide numbers of women like me, these crimes brought on by intolerance, and submit myself to a religion that has a lot to with the promulgation of  those very beliefs. Even if the people who assault and kill us are not Christian, this society was formed in a matrix of Christianity, the child of Christendom, it is --- it's ALL history and I can so easily link it all together and have done so many times with professors being unable to strike red marks through my airtight writing.

Almost done here, but you and others believe that transwomen (and men) is something that is relatively new. Nope. It's older than recorded history itself.  Please read:

Archaeologists have discovered a 5,000-year-old skeleton which they believe may be the remains of a transgender person.

The male skeleton was found in a suburb of Prague and is buried in a manner previously only seen for female burials.  The body is believed to date from between 2900 and 2500BC and is from the Corded Ware culture of the Copper Age. Men's bodies from that age and culture are usually found buried with their heads towards the west and with weapons. But this skeleton was found with its head towards the east and was surrounded by domestic jugs – as women's bodies from the time are usually found.

At a press conference in Prague yesterday, archaeologists theorised that the person may have been transgender or 'third sex'. Kamila Remišová, the head of the research team, said: "From history and ethnology, we know that when a culture had strict burial rules they never made mistakes with these sort of things."
Archaeologist Kateřina Semrádová told Czech Position: "We believe this is one of the earliest cases of what could be described as a 'transsexual' or 'third gender grave' in the Czech Republic." This is not the first time a skeleton has been found buried as a member of the opposite sex. One woman from the Mesolithic period, who was assumed to be a warrior, was found buried with weapons.

Now you know history is my thing, and I assure you I can link more and more.  From East Indians, to West Africans, to Native Americans, to Ancient Romans, in the annals of human history from all over the world there have been trans and gender non-conforming people. Shame, even in some of those societies people like us were actually revered yet here I am in 2015 in some supposedly enlightened, civilized society writing what seems like a term paper to my own father and sister so I can be fully accepted and understood. How did we get to this?

So there, I have absolutely no control over being trans, I can go on as I have been doing for the past 30 odd years a clumsy "man" and continue to suffer and screw up as I have been doing since literally my first day of school or I can finally shed this thin little shell and be the woman I always was and live my life with some sense of dignity, finish school, get a job and LIVE. But it's hard. Society hates us, we are freaks and weirdos. They hate us so much some insurance companies would rather pay $1,000 a month for anti-psychotics than a mere fraction of that for hormones which for many stand to improve our lives more while helping to make us productive citizens. Just like you said the other night "Well they just don't cover it" and it seems they may, but I ain't holding my breath. See why I am so hopeless. I know what will fix me, I am crying for help, but because transwomen are so hated and misunderstood many of us get none! 


LETTER ENDS

~~~~~

The answer to all that was god can deliver me. Tell me, girls, have you ever wanted to rip your hair out by the roots? I know I do!

Well... your essence is female so changing that would not be welcome . You would no longer be you.

Its adapting what you are to what they would like. And its not divine.
You are who you are.

This is one task of parents which is difficult and which quite a few do not get.
It is not their task to make children in their image. It is their task to find out what the children are and help them live it.


Imo its sometimes difficult to expect something from others. They feel it and it becomes a tug of war.
Sometimes it can be freeing not to have too high expectations.
And simply stating ones needs and emotions. This might set the other one free to come to their senses.


Parts of this might help, some restraints described are present in quite a few parents imo:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,190486.msg1697083.html#msg1697083 

What you have written is very emotional...
blathering moron talk show host like those parasites on TMZ
well its understandable but this way people might shut down...

one way would be to show easy understandable arguments...
like being transgender is a condition developed before birth...
there are studies showing that...
and you feel that way... you feel its who you are...
and you would appreciate help...

its not making too many reproaches but stating facts and needs...
so people can realize their position is not coming from a point of love... this is what their religion should be about...


if you feel like it call one of the helplines... they also have a chat...
for example
http://glnh.org/hotline/
http://translifeline.org


hugs

Well, there is always the tough love option of just saying I'm an adult with my own life choices. I need to and have a right to live my life the way I need to. I love you and pray for your love in your in return.

That's a beautifully written letter, Petti.  I'm going to crib some of that when I come out to my mom.  :)

Yes, an outstanding letter, +1, with research, explanations and appeals for understanding.  I hope your family appreciates your intelligence and efforts to just be yourself.

it is up to you to decide if fighting them is worth the sense of conflict when your energy might be better utilized to become independent of external controls and their ignorance?? ???  I don't know what other challenges you face but that sounds like a terribly hostile environment?  You are a smart person and alternatives are out there.

I agree with Tessa... that sounds like a terribly hostile environment...You are a smart person and alternatives are out there. 

My daughter and I love to fish.  One adage we have found to be true is that fishing success is all about location, location, location.  If the fishing in one spot is not making you happy, then move.  I feel like your happiness may be about location. 

And I have parents in their 70's that are like your father and faith in god is all you need according to them.  I stopped trying to use logic with them and adapted one of their favorite adages:  "Do not cast your pearls among swine".  I no longer try to educate them and that frustration has left me.

"...Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  -John 8:7 (paraphrased)

What religion is your FATHER? if you dont mind me asking.

Id like to research that religion. If found the best way to educate members of a religion is to use ther very religion.

What i mean is, i wish for a chance to look for trans supporting texts, and passages that suggest your fathers behaviour isnt in line with his reigion.

This is not so I can say your father is being mean, but so I have a chance at finding a way you could aproah your father with the possibility that he maybe misinterpretting or overlooking a vital ellement of his religion.

This is because religios people are more open to the idea that they are wrong, then to the idea that their faith and/or religion is wrong.

In other words I want to see if in your fathers religion ther is evidence to sugest that comforting you and accepting you if not assisting you is not condembed by his faith.

further more, i am sorry about you father being the way he is.

also...

Quote from: Laura_7 on July 29, 2015, 05:19:14 PM
What you have written is very emotional...
blathering moron talk show host like those parasites on TMZ
well its understandable but this way people might shut down...

This is very true.
When we as people hear phrases like this, it makes us now want to listen anymore, or we focus more on how we felt when we hear words and/or phrases like this, and we somtimes hear the other person out just to respond to these kind of remarks. And this can do a great deal to take focus away what is realy important.

From what I've read of your words and your fathers responces this is a never ending battle.

Because its comming across as, dad stop being religius, no child you stop being transgender.

Your dad is a religius person, and his religion is very much a part of him, in the same way, being transgender is a part or you. He cant stop being religius anymore then you can sop being transgender.

It might be an idea, to look at Mathew, 19: 12. (if your dad is christian, and hopeing their bible has not been changed to suit the will of man for men, that is a rewording to "choosing not to marry")

This is just one of the things i spoke to my dad about.

Hey you all, thanks a ton for the replies.

My dad is Christian, a Baptist. Yes, some language in that letter was quite strong, but that's just how we communicate sometimes. To put it bluntly my father is a 1970s Wash DC street thug that survived and made a good life for himself. Sometimes I have to "talk street" to him.  When we argue I am free to say things like (and I recently told him this about his beliefs) "Your beliefs are so stupid I literally don't believe you" ... he just laughs and says "That's just what I believe." But those things I mentioned in the OP, he really believes it. It's like he's a real life troll. I told him to go troll the internet and he could have people breaking keyboards lol.

I love my dad, I do. When I came out with all this trans stuff he told me he loves me anyway and when I asked how would he feel when others laugh at him after seeing his "son" in a dress he said "f**k 'em, I don't care what they think" but when getting down to nitty-gritty beliefs and him thinking I can actually pray being trans away I just stand back in awe of the stupidity. So on one hand he supports me, but on another hurts me when he just trivializes my condition thinking if I friggin' pray it'll all go away, or that I am just a really gay man and that most gays would get SRS if they could. To put it clearly he thinks I am joking and that this is all a game, and that I and other trans folk are an "abomination" and that HURTS. He thinks transition is useless and a "fool's errand" and he continues to refer to people like Jenner as "he" and tells me how no matter what I'll be his son.


+_+_+_+_+_+

Just a little something that I thought about.  Just for the sake of convo let's say what science we do have on the genetic component of transsexualism is wrong. Let's just say, again for the sake of conversation, we are ALL guys who just upped and decided we wanted to be girls. What the heck is the crime in that? Even then why would we be deserving of such hate to the point where "it" is a slur for us, one that unlike so many other slurs takes away our very humanity? "I said I wanted to be a woman, not a baby eating cannibal who wants to start a tannery run by child labor that uses the skin of teenage virgins to make erotic wear." My, my - hyperbole can be fun sometimes... but yeah, point stands :D

So, I don't mean to be nosey , but why do you stay in that environment . I know everyone has a unique life and do things for all sorts of reasons. I left home when I was eighteen. My father was a good father and when he became ill I came back and took care of him until he passed, Just curious why put up with the abuse. If my father treated me with the disrespect that yours does I would of stayed in New Mexico where I was living at the time,

You're not being nosy, Stephanie. Because as it stands it's as if I have to. I wish I could leave, but it's very hard for me due to psych problems. I have worked over 30 jobs in my life... almost 1 job for every year I have been alive. At work I'll panic, cry, just not go because leaving the house was hard. See I mentioned the USMC in that letter to my father? When I was at Parris Island it was just a bunch of crying about how I made a mistake and just wanted to go home and how they were "stupid men." May have been blessing in disguise because this was in 2000 and I surely would have went to Iraq seeing as how I aced ASVAB but still wanted to be infantry (so tryhard) with 9/11 about a year off. Yeah, I am about as fit for combat as Sponge Bob Squarepants.

And if that's not enough I had a girlfriend a while back and we though it would be awesome to try and be criminals. Yup, failed at that as well and we both ended up with felony convictions for theft, which, might I add, is considered a crime of "moral turpitude" and not looked highly upon by anyone, especially employers. As the old saying goes "no one likes a thief."

Girl, I wanna work soooooo bad, I would love nothing but a job that afforded me even a basic place to live, but I stand back and see that that is a possibility equal to me diffusing into pure energy, traveling through these wires to your location and conjuring a ton of  gold for you since you're always so nice in my threads.

This is all is so embarrassing and I only admit it due to the relative anonymity of the internet.

Well, you definitely have a pickle of a situation

Quote from: stephaniec on July 30, 2015, 10:00:20 PM
Well, you definitely have a pickle of a situation

I'll make it... hopefully  ;)

Thank you for helping us understand more depth about your dad and your situation.  We have all had plenty of opportunities to fail and get back up with a new lesson learned.