Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Caitlyn Jenner's Conservative Views Worry Her New Transgender Friends

http://www.people.com/article/caitlyn-jenner-conservative-views-i-am-cait-transgender

People/By K.C. Blumm 07/31/2015 AT 11:25 PM EDT

"Caitlyn Jenner told Diane Sawyer in her April interview that she was a Republican and "more on the conservative side," but in a new clip from I Am Cait the former Olympian's views appear to be worrying to her new transgender friends.

Jenner, 65, who is using her recognition to help the trans community, is shown discussing some of the challenges trans people face.

"What's the big issue," Jenner asks her new girlfriends as they take a road trip."

I'm not surprised. Making more on social programs? HA hardly. When i was on them in between jobs we could barely afford the essentials WITH rent being only $400. My share was $200.

  I had to wait to let my retirement savings deplete to poverty levels, get on medicaid to get the proper medical treatment for my neuropathy. The treatment I am getting is costly otherwise and the 1 month on this treatment shows a vast improvement over my 30+ year old onset of this condition. I was forced to go on minimum social security. I did put a lot in when I was working which helps. I had too much in the retirement savings to qualify before and the health insurance I had was worthless. I paid out of pocket for my medical for most of the interim 13 years unemployed and being lamed by this condition. It is from month to month here. Any catastrophic problem could put me out into the street with the other veterans of my era.
  The younger entry level set going on welfare do not get as much as one on a full-time job. It is tough on everybody working these days. 2 of my sisters are overworked so much that there is very little vacation time and family events are scheduled on Sundays so they can rest on the Saturdays. The pay they're getting is not that great either.
  It is especially hard for the TG M-Fs to even apply for a job due to the residual mores from the past. I am a middle conservative Republican but not as conservative as Caitlyn. She's is in my age group, but from different backgrounds. Me and my siblings were called trash when we were growing up and we had to work on getting to where we are.

Joelene

I've always sort of considered myself a conservative in that I'm cautious about social change, I'm very protective of individual freedom, and would like to see government solutions as a last resort rather than a default. It troubles me that in the U.S. conservative has developed an intolerant, anti-intellectual, power-hungry connotation where personal destruction and win-at-all-cost ethics have become moral. But I respect the basic principles of conservatism and don't think it's at all inconsistent with advancing transgender rights. I'm as troubled by the "conservative bad liberal good" mindset as I am with the opposite mindset that seems to pervade certain media outlets.

I'm actually relieved that Jenner is a conservative. It helps show the world that we are not all iconoclasts that want to tear down the social order. We're people like everyone else with the same diversity of lifestyle and opinion.

^This!^ ALL of this. I've been libertarian most of my life, but the hijacking of "libertarian" and "conservative" in this country lately is pushing me right into the arms of the Democrats. In any case, we are not a movement, we're a condition. The only thing we can be expected to have in common is being transgender. Nevertheless, enlightened self interest requires a certain degree of consideration for the needs of others. Self interest requires a degree of consideration for our own needs. Our form of government requires a "loyal opposition". The "loyal" part seems to get forgotten a lot lately.

Where'd this soapbox come from?

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 01, 2015, 05:16:45 AM
I'm as troubled by the "conservative bad liberal good" mindset as I am with the opposite mindset that seems to pervade certain media outlets.

Hi Suzi,

I think the problem is that in the U.S., liberal and conservative don't really exist in the political sphere anymore.  I think Jimmy Carter hit the nail on the head this week when he said "The U.S. Is an "Oligarchy With Unlimited Political Bribery".

Anyway just a thought, take care,
Paige :)

Quote from: Dee Marshall on August 01, 2015, 04:27:32 PM
In any case, we are not a movement, we're a condition.

Yes.

It should more accurately be called a "transgender rights movement" or a "transgender acceptance movement".

Quote from: Paige on August 01, 2015, 04:36:05 PM
I think the problem is that in the U.S., liberal and conservative don't really exist in the political sphere anymore.

I'm not sure they ever did. You can't really boil anyone's views into a single word. But lately it seems they've become an instrument of division. E.g. "Liberal" is what a conservative calls you if they want people to disagree with you.

I just watched the second episode of "I am Cait" where she encounters some real trans people outside of her privileged bubble of Malibu. I cringed as she put her foot in her mouth again and again, not realizing what she is saying.

She genuinely doesn't realize that her transition experience is far, far outside of other people's experiences. She just has no frame of reference, no clue. She is obviously still experiencing gender euphoria and is having fun being herself, and the reality of who she is hasn't hit yet.

I believe that in becoming her authentic self Cait has latched onto a monster that will eventually force her to face and reexamine her conservative views - after all, it is her conservative buddies that are putting the screws to us, and she is being hit square in the face with that knowledge. I hope it eventually pisses her off.

It will be interesting to see how she reacts to this - whether she jettisons her previous beliefs or doubles down on them. If she doubles down then I look for the trans community to walk away from her.

It was nice to hear that she was also getting good feedback from some more diverse sources.  We all have a learning curve to consider.

Ehhh, I don't get why we would need her to be perfect in her understanding trans issues. Yes she's a spokeswoman for trans people. She can still be ignorant about money issues without it hurting visibility and empathy. If anything I think it's emblematic of the fact that trans people have crazy Republicans just like cis people. We're really not that different.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from Katie's iPad using Tapatalk

I agree with Obfuskatie, Caitlin's experience is her experience, as is each our own. I'm in the DC area, and many of the trans women around here are conservative, and many of those have military backgrounds.

The show is interesting to watch, and I try to keep in mind that it is not spontaneous, but carefully edited and scripted.

Sure, she's naive about a lot of things, but it really doesn't matter. Look, it's been apparent for decades that she who can get the best surgery and the good job wins at this life.

She seems to be willing to use her position and resources to be supportive. Just her being out as trans is the tide that lifts all our boats, as she is not easily dismissed as some "fringe" persona as others have been in the past.

So what if she is not exposed to the sex worker side of things? Im not either and I know there are a lot in this area, and it's a shame, but I can't save them. But the exposure of Caitlin will eventually help them to get a foothold in the job market, etc.

While watching this second episode I felt some jealousy over the concept of her get-together with friends from the media area of the U.S. trans scene.

This is because I've been out since 2006, and quite frankly, I have yet to meet anyone from the trans world who was worth knowing, or was more than a temporary fair-weather friend, or who pretended to be friends with me to advance their own agenda, or who simply didn't want to be friends with me. 

And everyone else I met turned out to be a trainwreck to stay away from. The local support group had a lot of deeply disturbed, disruptive people in it when I passed through, and it caused me to avoid it after a few visits.

I don't feel any sense of "community" at all. I don't like being in that situation, but there it is. If it weren't for my straight friends, I'd be friendless.

Oh yeah, and Jenny Boylan goes Hollywood! I don't blame her. I wish that I could monetize this. My ex is actually talking to some people about getting me on a list of hired speakers, which I'd love to do, we'll see.

I kinda like that Caitlin is open about her naivety and how she has her family to set her straight when she thinks she's 'got it'.  It's kind of goofy charming to me :)

As far as her political views, I think those will change as she learns more and faces more adversity.  Money and fame will help her stay insulated for only so long.

Quote from: NikkiJ on August 04, 2015, 12:04:29 PM
...I try to keep in mind that it is not spontaneous, but carefully edited and scripted.

...Oh yeah, and Jenny Boylan goes Hollywood! ...

Ding ding ding!  We have a winner.

Jenny's "outrage" was so obviously "not spontaneous", "edited" and "scripted".  Sorry, JFB, you're so in over your head here.  LOL

I saw the first two episodes last night over a nice bottle of wine (and part of a crappy one).   

The first half of the first episode seemed like I was just keeping up with Kardashians, and I wondered if the sudden dip in my IQ was due to the sheer vapidness of it all or just the wine. 

The second act with her mom and sisters showed off what I thought was a glimpse of the real Caitlyn.  A lot of what she said mirrored exactly what I went through.  I also noticed that she signed the birthday card with her left hand (yay, another lefty!) and her pen(wo)manship was gorgeous (so jealous!).  Her therapist was right on the money about trans issues.  Apparently Cait's mom has a way to go with pronouns, realizing her "son" was really her daughter the whole time and is not actually "Bruce dressed like a woman".  The part of the episode that I found truly worthwhile was the end, where the subject of trans youth suicide was addressed.  (Could we please have more of this instead of anyone's name that starts with "K"?)  Like Caitlyn, I would like to live in a world where transfolk are no longer 10X more likely to kill themselves.  Perhaps as Executive Producer, Cait could steer it more in that direction?

The second episode should have been called, "Cait Gets a Reality Check, Part 1". 

"Gee, my voice still sounds like Bruce's.  Should I try to do something about that?"  Trans*lation: "Yes, I know damned well I have lots of work to do in that department.  Thanks for noticing."  I think the producers (Caitlyn!?) should have been forthcoming about how some of us actually need surgery to get it where we want it and for others, how long it can take to train a voice.  Outside the MTF community nobody gives this a second thought.  No thanks to this episode, they still don't.  I mean seriously, it took me two years to get it from "Movie Trailer Voiceover Guy" to "Bea Arthur".  I'm guessing it might take two more to get it up to "Allison Janney". *le sigh*  Please address this in a future episode.

The second act with the hand-picked group of transwomen got my eyes rolling a bit.  "Hey, let's get Cait some new BFFs and send them on a road trip together.  Oh, yeah, and then there's this serious part about how most transpeople actually have it.  It'll all look totally organic.  I swear."  The only parts I believed (other than the transpeople at the LGBT center that looked like a sample somewhat better representative of the trans community) was the fact that Cait is a bit naive, she actually does care to make a difference and that she isn't comfortable in a swimsuit, even with other transwomen.  I sort of wanted to give her a reassuring hug about that. 

The whole part about the "conservative views worrying her friends" was part of the script.  I didn't buy a second of it.  I guarantee that Cait will be apparently better informed with each successive episode and the plight of the average transperson will become more evident to her as far as her screen persona is concerned.

Remember "The Osbournes"?  Methinks this is as much the "Real Caitlyn" as that was the "Real Ozzy".  It's all a calculated act at the end of the day. 

I just hope that the cause of helping the trans community does not become overshadowed by the usual Hollywood money-grab formula here.   We won't get a do-over for all of the first impressions this show will make, so Cait, please, please, please don't screw this up.  Oh, and for the love of Pete, EAT SOMETHING!  You're way too skinny.

Frankly, I rank as "very conservative" along with my friends and family, and I've yet to have a terrible reaction from any of them. In fact the first question one of them asked was "when Obama finishes destroying the country and we're in the wastelands getting into running gunfights with biker gangs, will you have to carry a lighter pack?". That person also happened to be Federal law enforcement. The worst reaction I've gotten was "well, I don't understand or necessarily approve, but I'm not going to get in your way Erin." I can live with that.

The conservative opposition generally comes down to keeping the evangelical voting block satisfied, but the rest of them either don't care or are only marginally anti trans and can be convinced to change their mind with an honest discussion.  I've discussed bathroom usage with conservatives that weren't initially sympathetic, and had them end with "wow I didn't think of all that. I think I see your point."  It can be done, and there's enough of a libertarian streak in the republican party that many of them will be cool with you as long as you're not a clownshow.

I'm also a bit conflicted about Caitlyn. I'm sympathetic towards a trans person obviously, but I also want nothing to do with being linked to this Kardashian trainwreck and I'm not sure she's the best person to be our public face. Like it or not, her Olympic glory is gone and she's now known for being the befuddled and emasculated male figure in the middle of seedy reality show spectacle.

Quote from: ErinS on August 04, 2015, 11:35:58 PM

I'm also a bit conflicted about Caitlyn. I'm sympathetic towards a trans person obviously, but I also want nothing to do with being linked to this Kardashian trainwreck and I'm not sure she's the best person to be our public face. Like it or not, her Olympic glory is gone and she's now known for being the befuddled and emasculated male figure in the middle of seedy reality show spectacle.

I wish I could reach through the screen and kiss you. These are exactly my sentiments

As a libertarian who came from the (far) right, and one who has many, MANY 'macho alpha male' friends, acquaintances, and teammates, I have found that there is a separate 'analysis', even among the socially conservative types between trans* and gay folk. The gist, as I can glean from observation, is that they understand that we are 'wired differently' and they are ok with that, and I have heard that 'thank god there is technology to fix that'. It's surreal how even the most militant anti-gay person can understand trans* issues.

What I have noticed is that my friends of the more liberal (modern usage) persuasion either hate me for being "conservative" more than "trans", and automatically assume I'm a self-loather because of it. My being trans has nothing to do with my political ideals, yet I am more stereotyped by the left than the right. As a corollary to this, I'm also the 'Trans friend' to lefties more than conservatives and libertarians.

I feel I have to be more 'closeted' with those in the "queer community" about my political beliefs than I have to about my gender among those who are like minded, and this is sad.

Quote from: Jill F on August 04, 2015, 04:13:17 PM
Jenny's "outrage" was so obviously "not spontaneous", "edited" and "scripted".  Sorry, JFB, you're so in over your head here.  LOL

Jenny (as an east coast academic) looked very, very uncomfortable being grouped in with that bunch, who were a veritable who's who of the west coast social pages and entertainment industry - the choices reflect Caitlyn's connections and influence. As an example, Zachary Drucker (who I've personally met - shes very nice) is a producer of the Transparent show.

Caitlyn still has a long way to go in her learning about the trans struggles that happen down on the boulevard which she'll need to do if she wants to be a spokesperson for the communty. In episode 2 she brushed up against that with her visit to the HRC, and I hope she gets more of that and less of the frivolous things we saw in the first episode as the show progresses. Her audience dropped by 50% from show 1 to show 2, so maybe people are wanting to see more engagement in the issues and less of her personal lifestyle.

Well. if she doesn't engage in the issues all we'll see is how comfortable her lifestyle is. I saw her bedroom , wow , that would be cool to have a bedroom like that, but it definitely wouldn't be a reason to  be interested in what she had to say. She very wealthy and I like to be able to live like that, but its not going to happen.

Quote from: Sigyn on August 05, 2015, 07:50:40 AM
I wish I could reach through the screen and kiss you. These are exactly my sentiments

As a libertarian who came from the (far) right, and one who has many, MANY 'macho alpha male' friends, acquaintances, and teammates, I have found that there is a separate 'analysis', even among the socially conservative types between trans* and gay folk. The gist, as I can glean from observation, is that they understand that we are 'wired differently' and they are ok with that, and I have heard that 'thank god there is technology to fix that'. It's surreal how even the most militant anti-gay person can understand trans* issues.

What I have noticed is that my friends of the more liberal (modern usage) persuasion either hate me for being "conservative" more than "trans", and automatically assume I'm a self-loather because of it. My being trans has nothing to do with my political ideals, yet I am more stereotyped by the left than the right. As a corollary to this, I'm also the 'Trans friend' to lefties more than conservatives and libertarians.

I feel I have to be more 'closeted' with those in the "queer community" about my political beliefs than I have to about my gender among those who are like minded, and this is sad.

Exactly. I've also found conservatives tend to be more 'tolerant' than liberals in general. I've had multiple conservatives tell me they think it's weird as hell and they don't understand, but they hope I'm happy and are cool with it as long as I keep voting Republican and support gunrights. All the while using the proper name and pronouns. Sure the anti trans folk do seem to congregate on the right, but most Rs just don't seem to have strong feelings either way and have a basic "live and let live" approach in my experience. Now say something a liberal doesn't agree with and watch how fast they excommunicate you or try to have your career destroyed. I think we have a right to demand people 'tolerate' us, but we have no right to demand people accept or celebrate us. That sort of thing has to be earned by being open, and showing the world we're decent people.


Yes I'm trans. But at the end of the day that's only one small aspect of who I am, and I certainly don't care for the insults and snide remarks when some people find out I haven't scurried onto the Democratic vote plantation.

As for Caitlyn, I really really wish she wasn't involved in trans topics the way she is. Yes she can be open and get involved in outreach, but the ESPY award and the reality show are complete nonsense and give ammo to the people claiming she's only transitioning to make more money and attention whore. I mean we all know how ridiculous that sounds, but a lot of people don't and to be fair it seems like a reasonable argument when you take in her recent actions and activities.

Quote from: ErinS on August 06, 2015, 02:19:58 AM

Exactly. I've also found conservatives tend to be more 'tolerant' than liberals in general. I've had multiple conservatives tell me they think it's weird as hell and they don't understand, but they hope I'm happy and are cool with it as long as I keep voting Republican and support gunrights. All the while using the proper name and pronouns. Sure the anti trans folk do seem to congregate on the right, but most Rs just don't seem to have strong feelings either way and have a basic "live and let live" approach in my experience. Now say something a liberal doesn't agree with and watch how fast they excommunicate you or try to have your career destroyed. I think we have a right to demand people 'tolerate' us, but we have no right to demand people accept or celebrate us. That sort of thing has to be earned by being open, and showing the world we're decent people.

I guess it's how Republican leadership has approached the issue.  Maybe there's this great group of Conservatives that are "live and let live", not sure about that, but the leadership of the Republican party in the Senate, the house and in the states, seem to be very against "live and let live" for transgendered people.  There might be a few exceptions, but the vast majority don't seem to tolerate us at all.  So doesn't that reflect on the people who vote for them?

Just a thought,
Paige :)

As for the leadership, it comes down to electoral math. They have to keep the evangelical idiots satisfied, and any votes they would gain from us would be more than offset by votes lost from them.

As for people themselves on the right, most of them simply don't know any trans people at all and their exposure is things like the tumblr radicals, Caitlyn's attention whoring, and seeing Zoe Tur get called a man in a dress and then react exactly like a man in a dress would. So basically not very postive. And even then, the conservatives that are accepting are not going to toss voting R over one issue when they agree with 98% of everything else. I'm certainly not going to get into the identity politics trap and vote Democratic when I vehemently disagree with them on 95% of common topics. Like I said, being trans is not the end all be all of my identity.

I came out on the largest gun forum on the Internet with 400,000 members(most very conservative, as the site is dedicate to the AR15) and the reaction was overwhelming positive, and I had several other conservative trans women join in my thread, and hundreds of private messages from other trans people and friends and family and supporters of trans people.  I came out because I got sick of the trans bashing threads by certain people, and my thread ended up being over 4 times longer than the longest anti trans thread. So I'm going to stick to being conservative and work on reaching out to my fellow republicans.

Quote from: ErinS on August 06, 2015, 10:27:46 AMSo I'm going to stick to being conservative and work on reaching out to my fellow republicans.

While you are sticking to your guns I can only applaud your also reaching out and helping other people understand the wealth of diversity that is all around them.

Most of my family are pretty conservative. I've gotten overwhelmingly positive reactions from all the ones I've told in person and I'm crafting a Facebook coming out post (see other thread) to come out to the rest. I'll educate southeastern Michigan if some of you can take other parts of the country.

Quote from: ErinS on August 06, 2015, 10:27:46 AM

I came out on the largest gun forum on the Internet with 400,000 members(most very conservative, as the site is dedicate to the AR15) and the reaction was overwhelming positive, and I had several other conservative trans women join in my thread, and hundreds of private messages from other trans people and friends and family and supporters of trans people.  I came out because I got sick of the trans bashing threads by certain people, and my thread ended up being over 4 times longer than the longest anti trans thread. So I'm going to stick to being conservative and work on reaching out to my fellow republicans.

You know hearing that Erin made my day.  With all the negative out there, it's so nice to hear about the positive transgender examples.  Good luck with your efforts.  By the way your avatar picture is amazing.

Take care,
Paige :)

Quote from: Paige on August 06, 2015, 12:35:32 PM
You know hearing that Erin made my day.  With all the negative out there, it's so nice to hear about the positive transgender examples.  Good luck with your efforts.  By the way your avatar picture is amazing.

Take care,
Paige :)

Thank you; I actually had FFS with Dr. Mayer yesterday.  :)

But the thing with most conservatives is they simply don't like being lectured, guilt tripped, or threatened into doing or thinking anything, so quite a bit of the activist repertoire actually backfires. I've made a difference just by being open and showing I'm a decent and respectable person, and it's worked with the conservatives I've interacted with in a may other methods won't. It's one thing to sit in a cafe in Berkely with friends and discuss topics like intersectionalism, but going to flyover country and trying to talk to mr. And mrs. Middle America about self-fart-sniffing academic esoterica is only going to result in their eyes glazing over as they start to wonder if they've forgotten any dry cleaning. Know your audience.

 :police:

Let's please keep our discourse respectful. People are prone to take offense at stereotypical descriptions of the political positions.

This has been an enlightening thread.

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 07, 2015, 05:07:13 AM
:police:

Let's please keep our discourse respectful. People are prone to take offense at stereotypical descriptions of the political positions.

My posts are often best read wryly with tongue firmly in cheek.  ;)  nonetheless it's a serious discussion that needs to be held, so I'll ignore the pain pill fueled desire to make witty puns and rephrase slightly.  :P

Quote from: ErinS on August 07, 2015, 12:59:33 AM
Thank you; I actually had FFS with Dr. Mayer yesterday.  :)

But the thing with most conservatives is they simply don't like being lectured, guilt tripped, or threatened into doing or thinking anything, so quite a bit of the activist repertoire actually backfires. I've made a difference just by being open and showing I'm a decent and respectable person, and it's worked with the conservatives I've interacted with in a may other methods won't. It's one thing to sit in a cafe in Berkely with friends and discuss topics like intersectionalism, but going to flyover country and trying to talk to mr. And mrs. Middle America about self-fart-sniffing academic esoterica is only going to result in their eyes glazing over as they start to wonder if they've forgotten any dry cleaning. Know your audience.

Hi Erin,

You do realize the preaching comes from both sides?  People on the left are just as likely to turn away when someone preaches to them about freedom to bare arms, libertarianism, tea party politics, that global warming is a conspiracy, etc.  It goes both ways.

Take care,
Paige :)

Quote from: Paige on August 07, 2015, 09:57:43 AM
Hi Erin,

You do realize the preaching comes from both sides?  People on the left are just as likely to turn away when someone preaches to them about freedom to bare arms, libertarianism, tea party politics, that global warming is a conspiracy, etc.  It goes both ways.

Take care,
Paige :)

Sure; however that's only tangentially related to the specific topic I was discussing. I'm discussing more of the manner of engagement, and not the desirability of engagement in itself.  There's nothing wrong with advocating for something, but it is important to adjust to your audience and do it in such a fashion that the worst case is the person is simply unconvinced instead of driven firmer in their beliefs. This requires taking the high road at times, but that's always important any way because sometimes the person you're trying to convince is actually standing in the audience and not the person you're engagin with. 

That conservative forum I'm on? A couple years ago an openly trans member started advocating trans topics. Unfortunately she was extremely obnoxious, very dislikeable, and just plain rude, and she was dogpiled and ran off very quickly. Compared to my coming out thread, which was received positively to the point several senior site staff PM'd me to thank me for how I handled the thread, because they want to start moving towards being more receptive of lgbt people. I made every effort to turn the other cheek to the occasional rude comment, and very quickly other members started dogpiling those people on my behalf, simply because of the way I conducted myself when insulted. Those obnoxious people are always going to be out there, just don't let yourself get baited.

There are people of many political persuasions on this site.


:)

Quote from: ErinS on August 07, 2015, 02:05:58 PM
I'm discussing more of the manner of engagement...

I get the impression Paige is making the same point, that people of any political persuasion can be in your face about their particular ideology.

Quote from: Serverlan on August 07, 2015, 09:58:18 PM
I get the impression Paige is making the same point, that people of any political persuasion can be in your face about their particular ideology.

Oh absolutely. The narrowly specific topic I was discussing however, was "how to engage people on the Right in a way with the best chance of success" And observing that, ironically, they can also be more tolerant at times of ideological differences than those on the left(I've gotten more flack from liberals for being a gunowner than I've gotten from conservatives for being trans) It's possible to get conservatives to turn positive towards trans issues; I know because I've done it.

And as for the "in your face" style of advocacy, the behavior and incidents that I was more referring to are the Mozilla CEO being fired for once opposing gay marriage and the bakery in oregon getting sued over not baking a cake. Frankly, no one should be fired over their opinion opposing gay marriage any more than someone fired for being gay, and the bakery deal reflects horribly on the lgbt community and make us looks like the fascists some claim we are, not to mention trivializes the actual serious issues like access to housing employment and medical care.

Quote from: ErinS on August 07, 2015, 11:43:27 PM
the Mozilla CEO being fired for once opposing gay marriage... no one should be fired over their opinion opposing gay marriage any more than someone fired for being gay.

If it were only about Eich's personal opinion, I might agree. But in this case, Eich was pressured to step down as Mozilla CEO (a company that prides itself on its policy of inclusiveness and diversity) because he made a donation to a group that actively opposed the legalisation of gay marriage. So, yeah, I see a difference between a CEO of Mozilla funding opponents of gay marriage and that same CEO merely harbouring personal opinions on gay marriage (which I otherwise wouldn't give a damn about).

The same is true for the bakers, who are are of course entitled to be bigots if they choose to be. However, the moment their opinions dictated which customers they'd serve, they opened themselves up to trouble. I can't believe anyone thinks it's OK for a business to not serve a customer based on whatever weird prejudice the business owner holds.

Quote from: Serverlan on August 08, 2015, 12:35:47 AM
If it were only about Eich's personal opinion, I might agree. But in this case, Eich was pressured to step down as Mozilla CEO (a company that prides itself on its policy of inclusiveness and diversity) because he made a donation to a group that actively opposed the legalisation of gay marriage. So, yeah, I see a difference between a CEO of Mozilla funding opponents of gay marriage and that same CEO merely harbouring personal opinions on gay marriage (which I otherwise wouldn't give a damn about).

The same is true for the bakers, who are are of course entitled to be bigots if they choose to be. However, the moment their opinions dictated which customers they'd serve, they opened themselves up to trouble. I can't believe anyone thinks it's OK for a business to not serve a customer based on whatever weird prejudice the business owner holds.

My opinion includes political donations, and IMO it's totally disgusting he was fired over it. In fact CA law specifically protects from employer retaliation due to participation in political activities, and it's particularly dangerous in his case because the donation was made back when opposition to gay marriage was popular to the point the ban won. Do I have to explain the dangers of a state of affairs where you may receive future punishment for a mainstream opinion you hold today that eventually loses favor?

As for the bakers, it's stupid for them to turn away a paying customer but also not remotely as stupid as the gay couple that pushed the issue until the point they make lgbt people look like fascists and trivialize and distract from more important issues. That's a perfect example of a case where the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

There's also a growing movement in this country to not only win the argument, but destroy the lives and careers of anyone holding a non-approved political opinion, and it absolutely infuriates me to no end and is no way to protect and preserve a free Western society, and I'll fight and criticize it regardless of its political origins.

Quote from: ErinS on August 08, 2015, 12:59:11 AM
I'll fight and criticize it regardless of its political origins.

Everybody's fighting and criticizing.

Quote from: Serverlan on August 08, 2015, 01:31:39 AM
Everybody's fighting and criticizing.

Reasonable people can disagree reasonably, like we are.  :) See, no insults, doxing attempts, or attempts to ruin each others lives and careers; just like it should be.

If i remember right, it wasnt that the bakery refused service, it's that they posted personal information about the couple. Similar to the McDonald's coffee incident there's always more to the story.

Quote from: BenKenobi on August 08, 2015, 03:11:17 AM
If i remember right, it wasnt that the bakery refused service, it's that they posted personal information about the couple. Similar to the McDonald's coffee incident there's always more to the story.

That is correct, and the entire situation is actually rather convoluted. it started out a relatively minor thing, and spiraled into this enormous ball of idiocy that's very difficult to cover
with typical soundbite journalism without making the gay couple look like the bad guys, because all people hear is a 100k+ fine for not baking a cake. And if people get 100k fines for not baking us(lgbt people)cakes, how discriminated against can we really be? And does it mean all the serious problems with employment and medical care discrimination are now solved? I've tried walking people through it to understand all the issues, but I ultimately just keep throwing my hands up and wishing it never happened. 

At the end of the day there was dignity in blacks fighting and protesting for their right to vote; there's no dignity in gays complaining to mommy government to force someone to bake them sweets.

Quote from: ErinS on August 08, 2015, 03:31:53 AM


At the end of the day there was dignity in blacks fighting and protesting for their right to vote; there's no dignity in gays complaining to mommy government to force someone to bake them sweets.

Yes, it's all about dignity. Dignity to vote and dignity to expect not to be discriminated against just living your life. It's not an either or thing; both the big and the small issues are worth fighting for. It is really possible to walk and chew gum.

Quote from: ErinS on August 08, 2015, 03:31:53 AM
At the end of the day there was dignity in blacks fighting and protesting for their right to vote; there's no dignity in gays complaining to mommy government to force someone to bake them sweets.

I'm not sure I understand this. Someone out to denigrate the civil rights movement could describe it as "blacks complaining to mommy government to force someone to serve them lunch". Why is discriminating by refusing someone service in a bakery any less evil than discriminating by refusing someone service at a whites-only lunch counter?

Quote from: suzifrommd on August 08, 2015, 05:22:49 AM
I'm not sure I understand this. Someone out to denigrate the civil rights movement could describe it as "blacks complaining to mommy government to force someone to serve them lunch". Why is discriminating by refusing someone service in a bakery any less evil than discriminating by refusing someone service at a whites-only lunch counter?

The lunch counter protests were part of a multi-prong protest dealing ultimately with jim crow laws, because it was the law that required segregated establishments. Risking arrest and beating to oppose a discriminatory policy from the government is heroic; getting the government  involved over a dispute about a baked good looks like bullying.

One thing that some conservatives claim, is that we're(lgbt)a bunch of fascists not happy with just being tolerated but also demanding people be forced to accept and celebrate us, and the bakery case feeds right into that narrative and certainly looks like that unless you actually research it, which normal Americans never do lol.  That's why I keep harping on picking your battles and paying attention to the optics, because this case had more downsides than upsides from the beginning.

Quote from: Serverlan on August 08, 2015, 04:37:04 AM
Yes, it's all about dignity. Dignity to vote and dignity to expect not to be discriminated against just living your life. It's not an either or thing; both the big and the small issues are worth fighting for. It is really possible to walk and chew gum.

But they're not the same, and have to be fought differently, with the smaller ones chosen more wisely and best handled indirectly without beaucrats getting involved. It's about the optics and narrative, and doing things in a way where you unequivocally appear to be the morally superior party. This requires one to think strategically, and consider 2nd and 3rd order effects.

Also, this is what real discrimination looks like:

"the Citizens' Councils used economic tactics against African Americans whom they considered as supportive of desegregation and voting rights, or for belonging to the NAACP, or even suspected of being activists; the tactics included "calling in" the mortgages of blacks, denying loans and business credit, pressing employers to fire them, and boycotting black-owned businesses.[10] In some cities, the Councils published lists of names of NAACP supporters and signers of anti-segregation petitions in local newspapers in order to encourage economic retaliation.[11] For instance, in Yazoo City, Mississippi in 1955, the Citizens' Council published in the local paper the names of 53 signers of a petition for school integration. Soon afterward, the petitioners lost their jobs and had their credit cut off.[12] As Charles Payne puts it, the Councils operated by "unleashing a wave of economic reprisals against anyone, Black or white, seen as a threat to the status quo."[7] Their targets included black professionals such as teachers."

If trans people can hate other trans people simply because they are conservative, it seems plausible that conservatives could hate lgbt because they are overwhelmingly liberal. Just a thought.

This is getting way derailed here.  No mention of Caitlyn since page 1.  Can we get this back on track?

Caitlyn is history, Jazz is in.

Quote from: Jill F on August 08, 2015, 09:10:39 PM
This is getting way derailed here.  No mention of Caitlyn since page 1.  Can we get this back on track?

I think this is very much related because it's not about Caitlyn per se but about conflicting views between conservative and liberal transgender people. Caitlyn just happens to be the one that brought it in to light.