Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Can we stop this once and for all? (I'm well aware that the answer is "no.") The idea of "passing" establishes impossible cis-normative beauty standards, which inevitably leads most trans folks, and ESPECIALLY most trans women, to "fail." And how is a stranger on the internet able to tell you whether or not you get clocked or misgendered in public? Being recognized as female involves more than looks. Your walk, your mannerisms, your voice, and your overall energy all have way more to do with being read as your true gender.

Are you curious whether or not you pass? Get off the computer for a few days. Go around town. Talk to people. And if you must, come back here and report the results.

Edit: Think about how awful and invalidating this is for the folks who don't "pass" and never will. They are just as wonderful, and beautiful, and authentic as anyone else. Why should we, other trans people at that, be such a reminder that they don't "look the right way?"

Yes, passing privilege is nice. I have it much of the time. But instead of asking, "Do I pass?" Try instead to ask yourself, "Am I a good person?" (By the way, the answer is "yes!")

While I do understand the negative impacts of being obsessed with passing within the gender spectrum, I do think it holds practical value to understand how others might see you in the world before actually taking that step in going out as your true gender identity. It can be a safety concern, especially if someone just starting on their journey is worried about whether going to the bathroom or locker room of their choosing will result in a potentially dangerous situation, which becomes increasingly more important, I think, if their home town is very intolerant of non heteronormative individuals. In some instances, RLE could be a gamble of life and death.

Quote from: AndrewB on August 13, 2015, 09:06:01 AM
While I do understand the negative impacts of being obsessed with passing within the gender spectrum, I do think it holds practical value to understand how others might see you in the world before actually taking that step in going out as your true gender identity. It can be a safety concern, especially if someone just starting on their journey is worried about whether going to the bathroom or locker room of their choosing will result in a potentially dangerous situation, which becomes increasingly more important, I think, if their home town is very intolerant of non heteronormative individuals. In some instances, RLE could be a gamble of life and death.

I agree, but most of the time people are not being given honest critiques in these "passing threads" and they are filled with false confidence, only to be let down in real life.

I totally agree that the idea of passing needs to enter the list of extinct species ( no offense to extinct species, I'd personally would love to see the first air breathing tetrapod to walk out of the ocean and make land its home) I do think it's important for people to get objective views. I know things sometimes don't seem objective because people want to be nice and not hurt someone going through this dilemma . I think most reply's are in the realm of honest and helpful. Obviously sometimes the word gorgeous is thrown about , but its just used in a helpful way. Honest good criticism and helpful suggestion are the best way to go. Using a site like this is just a small fraction of your decision process in terms of whether or not transitioning is right for you. I think if you got on a site and put your picture up and 100% of the people said you were incredibly beautiful when in fact you look like average Jane Doe  I'd be more concerned because that wouldn't help you work things out. Only speaking for this site even though I've never gone to other sites, I'd say we have a wonderful group of people who here and are sincere in helping. I think when you say something of someone's picture you need to be honest within the confines of diplomacy . Give helpful hints at looking better. My main concern is that people are transitioning because they're tying to correct a gender situation which personally I believe is genetic and there need to transition is not done to be Miss World , but to relieve the pain they are in and correct a medical imbalance. Objectivity sprinkled with compassion is for me the best approach. I think having a place to get opinions on your looks is good because on average your going to get a descent idea of how others see you which I know personally is why I post because you need that objective view, You really cant get that view on the street, unless of course you get stuff thrown at you for walking around. In one sense I think this is a practical  way for getting an idea of your appearance because it is the internet and you get feedback from people you really don't interact with other than on an impersonal basis. Just take it all with the proverbial grain of salt and you'll find at least a grain of truth.

I try to pass for myself, not for anyone. 

As much as it seemingly removes "pride" in being trans, I would rather people treat me as just a woman rather than a trans person.

And I'm committed to this, because I will not be happy otherwise.

I hate having to correct people.
I hate people viewing me as a man in a dress.
I hate people calling me "him" when talking to third parties even though they refer to you by your preferred pronouns because you know they are just putting up an act.
I hate my trans-ness being the center of my life.

That's basically it, I'm doing this for ME and no one else. Live your life as you please.

QuoteAre you curious whether or not you pass? Get off the computer for a few days. Go around town. Talk to people. And if you must, come back here and report the results.

I did that, and I am never gendered as a male now. Not even in the third person. Mission accomplished, I suppose. But there are still things I am doing for me and no one else.

I don't post pictures here anymore for privacy reasons but some of mine are unflattering. Regardless, in person I have nobody who brings up the topic of transgender spontaneously and I don't even mention it to them. Do I pass? Or are they being nice? I probably do pass but the end result is the same.

Nobody passes.

Generally, I avoid those topics, because I know at least facial hair shadow makes me 100% unpassable. I'm dependent on wigs, I'm dependent on heavy make up.

With those two things well done I recently wouldn't be clocked in broad daylight. Rarely someone would even have a look at me. Supposedly that means 'passing'. With pretty face, even bad voice can be forgiven -- tested!

But I see those topics as people asking for objective advice what's next thing to address in terms of their looks, or just wishing they heard a nice word. I understand both completely.

Can someone tell if you pass just from pics? Hell no. Can they tell from a video? Again, hell no. And the 'cheerleader crowd' around here is not always honest.

I'll use myself as an example. I've been told that I'd need extensive FFS in order to pass - on this very site. I've been told my pics do not pass, also on this site. Here's the funny thing, I do - OK, it's about 90% of the time, but I don't ever get chased out of the women's restroom.

It's all fine. You are all more gorgeous than I am, but seeing others' progress is an inspiration for me.

Quote from: kelly_aus on August 13, 2015, 06:30:38 PM
Can someone tell if you pass just from pics? Hell no. Can they tell from a video? Again, hell no. And the 'cheerleader crowd' around here is not always honest.

I'll use myself as an example. I've been told that I'd need extensive FFS in order to pass - on this very site. I've been told my pics do not pass, also on this site. Here's the funny thing, I do - OK, it's about 90% of the time, but I don't ever get chased out of the women's restroom.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that is certainly not a measure of "passing." It's just that people don't really have the energy to argue with someone in a restroom. I went in looking like a total boy (according to my mom) a good few times  and nobody cared. I don't think you need FFS to pass but you're right, pictures and videos can only do so much. The real test is real life and if you rock it then you rock it. If you're happy does anything else matter?

That said do I used to care a lot about passing. Now I care less but the funny thing is that it just happens. And even if people know I'm trans so what. As long as they don't ask me about it I'm cool. Tha doesn't mean there is no effort to pass. It just means that I don't care if people know I'm trans. As long as I get treated like the woman I am I'm fine.

I do understand the OP's point, I however think these threads are rather important to people that lack the self confidence to go out. Some people have the confidence to carry what ever they look like and do not give a crap.

Not everyone has someone there to help them gain that confidence boost to do it.
For me I had someone who helped me build it by giving me a very small outfit and a wig. Going to a forest (had a nice bridge there, and people there) and having pictures taken. She showed people the pictures and asked them in person about what they thought, she also did put them on the internet with my then PHONE NUMBER, to try to boost my confidence (I don't recommend this part though).

Facts are people do not always have people they confide in about issues, so if this is the only way to boost confidence for them to take the steps to progress on their pathway. I will admit that if you are not prepared to get outed by some jerk in public however you should not do it.

Confidence goes a long way to passing.

Quote from: iKate on August 13, 2015, 08:21:17 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, but that is certainly not a measure of "passing." It's just that people don't really have the energy to argue with someone in a restroom. I went in looking like a total boy (according to my mom) a good few times  and nobody cared. I don't think you need FFS to pass but you're right, pictures and videos can only do so much. The real test is real life and if you rock it then you rock it. If you're happy does anything else matter?

That said do I used to care a lot about passing. Now I care less but the funny thing is that it just happens. And even if people know I'm trans so what. As long as they don't ask me about it I'm cool. Tha doesn't mean there is no effort to pass. It just means that I don't care if people know I'm trans. As long as I get treated like the woman I am I'm fine.

OK, is it passing when you out yourself to the woman you are about to be intimate with and her reaction is to look you in the eyes and declare 'Bull->-bleeped-<-!'?

Quote from: Kayla88 on August 13, 2015, 09:03:46 PM
I do understand the OP's point, I however think these threads are rather important to people that lack the self confidence to go out. Some people have the confidence to carry what ever they look like and do not give a crap.

Not everyone has someone there to help them gain that confidence boost to do it.
For me I had someone who helped me build it by giving me a very small outfit and a wig. Going to a forest (had a nice bridge there, and people there) and having pictures taken. She showed people the pictures and asked them in person about what they thought, she also did put them on the internet with my then PHONE NUMBER, to try to boost my confidence (I don't recommend this part though).

Facts are people do not always have people they confide in about issues, so if this is the only way to boost confidence for them to take the steps to progress on their pathway. I will admit that if you are not prepared to get outed by some jerk in public however you should not do it.

Confidence goes a long way to passing.

And if I'd listened to what I was told, I'd have just stayed in the closet..

Quote from: kelly_aus on August 13, 2015, 09:17:00 PM
And if I'd listened to what I was told, I'd have just stayed in the closet..

As I stated some people have the confidence to not care about what other people thinks and it ways heavy on passing.
When you first went out into public dressed was you scared that someone might out you in public and ridicule you?

If you wasn't scared about it then I would understand your dislike of can you pass topics and of course your past experience with them by the sounds of it was not great.

You managed to come out of your closet by yourself, I did not, nor do many others who need a bit of a boost.

The only reason to "pass" for me is so I can get hit on by guys and then tell them my dick is bigger than theirs for giggles. I think everyone should be comfortable with themselves above and beyond anything else. If you can't accept yourself then who else is going to?

I still irrefutably see this whole argument  revolve around the need to heal vs. what anyone else  thinks about me.

I am with you, Mugwort.

It is a waste of time to agonise over whether or not one 'passes' - and it is also a waste of time to infer that 'I must pass, since people treat me a certain way'.

Totally the wrong end of the stick. Transition is about being an authentic self. Not being an image of oneself.

Furthermore, we have no control over what other people think. Trying to force or fool other people into not seeing things we don't want them to see, is sheer folly.

Quote from: iKate on August 13, 2015, 11:36:55 AM
I try to pass for myself, not for anyone. 

As much as it seemingly removes "pride" in being trans, I would rather people treat me as just a woman rather than a trans person.

And I'm committed to this, because I will not be happy otherwise.

I hate having to correct people.
I hate people viewing me as a man in a dress.
I hate people calling me "him" when talking to third parties even though they refer to you by your preferred pronouns because you know they are just putting up an act.
I hate my trans-ness being the center of my life.

That's basically it, I'm doing this for ME and no one else. Live your life as you please.

I did that, and I am never gendered as a male now. Not even in the third person. Mission accomplished, I suppose. But there are still things I am doing for me and no one else.

I don't post pictures here anymore for privacy reasons but some of mine are unflattering. Regardless, in person I have nobody who brings up the topic of transgender spontaneously and I don't even mention it to them. Do I pass? Or are they being nice? I probably do pass but the end result is the same.

I am with Kate on this. As a corollary, I also view "passing" personally as a measure of performance. Allow me to explain.

I'm fairly conservative morally and socially. As a result, I understand that society requires me to look and act in a certain way. I want to be viewed by the world as a woman, as I view myself. As a result, in order to do these things, I need to look, comport myself, and act a certain way. Passing to me is a measure of that performance.

I think what also makes me personally happy is that the things that cis women complain about, i.e. shaving legs, pits, makeup etc., I finally >get< to do. Therefore, looking my best (and this means getting as close to 'passing' as possible) is a privilege that I have been denied for so so long, and I'm excited that I >get< to do it.

I think there are more plans involved , like in most things , gender itself , there is not only a  criteria and  a category .  More perspectives and points of view make a clearer image , reach and exploit it better .

I see it this way , there is the biological dysphoria , interpreted by the mind with other factors involved , like how we perceive the human being , bond with the gender concept  , biological sexual role  bond with the gender too , normality , standards , interests , also how good we can feel the inner desire and the image we wish .

Then there is the perspective about gender and transition often brought to the rank of doctrine , in which people try to find some peace . I mean for sure it give us peace to transition and be ourselves physically and in behavior and social role , but this doesn't make the looks' importance fade . We get the peace from the looks and the freedom and awareness to behave naturally themselves . Transition is not a purpose , it's a tool . The inner awareness is on us as human beings , regardless the gender  . Also we are not punished to settle with less ,  we could have both too . There is no exclusion between them .  We can find pleasure in life , experiences , not in concepts and cresting frames and ' superior ' quests .
After a while we understand and settle for a thinking and self , the mental transitions slows down , close to a stable point . But then we need to live , and live like any others , happy on as many plans not resigned on sophisms about focusing on other things and ignoring the looks - we want to look ok , we need it as animals , for self esteem and mate . Also we want to enjoy the life , and many being binary are interested in looking like a biological and beautiful female . I guess this is what people name passing in many cases , or at least a first step , a checkpoint in the journey to get there .

Then there is the social pressure , opportunities or just abuse , so one wants to look normal.
Also there  is the inner need of being good in our role , to look ok and all . And passing is not about gender normative , clothes expression , behavior ,  but not to have the traits of the opposite biological sex . There is some feeling less in that. We are in a competition , and after you don't think through the gender filter , the competition is clearly with the biological girls .

Passing is a level not a situation . It's the level of physical traits that allows to look good enough .

Myself , i don't seek passing anymore , or even more , living stealth , because they are kinda lies . I don't pass and never will . Yes , people are calling me miss , but it is just blending , they don't see my masculine traits because they don't look enough or maybe they are polite. I didn't reach the level of resembling a bio female to call it ' pass . What bothers me more is that i have those traits , not that sometimes i get clocked .I just focus on seeing and feeling my inner needs ,. The way i want to look , to behave , the instinct i have , the needs and limits , the ability to open to the things that i need but were forbidden .
For me the non passing things hurts , in the way that i am not what i wanted since childhood , i wanted to be 'one of them' , normal . But i am not , i have to deal with it , i have to think the whole gender or even better , the superior perspective .
I have to have this maab burden forever . Everytime one clocks me or i see it myself , many things become alive :the broken dreams  , the traumas , the transition , it s like a wound that never closes and also it s never reaching the dream and the fluid life , without this things coming along .
But it hurts more that i am not there in the biologic way , maybe there are some inner complexes involved , like not being as meant a girl like others are , idk

Maybe we should just ask here ? Am i pretty ?  Or if one wants , am i pretty by the female standards ?

Anyway , it's just overthink and also like most antropic things it's part of a system , you either  believe it and fulfill it- you have some pleasure , or you can reject it and nothing changes , you live with other principles . Even the discussion itself it's a source of entertainment only , there is no correct ..

I'm still hoping for the day when society can uninhabitably give everyone a passing grade. I really never liked the institutional grading system which would be derailing this topic If I got started.

If you read everyone's replies clearly some people want information on if they pass or advice on how they can improve their beauty. Other people just want to go out in the world and rock their own look and be themselves and are comfortable in their presentation. So for some "Do I pass?" is necessary and others it is not. Everyone should be themselves and find what makes them comfortable and happy in their body so they can enjoy their life imo.

Having worked as a social worker in the areas of disability and adult mental health the whole notion of 'passing'  some kind of standard of appearance in order to safely blend in irritates me.  For a while I worked with some Muslim refugee families too so the whole question of looking 'normal' enough to blend in so the dangerous bigots and haters that are running about loose on the streets don't beat you up or kill you makes me wonder if the human race becoming extinct might be a good thing.

We are all beautiful and unique end of story.

There is really no changing nature though. People are trained to recognize gender. It is automatic and often, instant. And it is also hard wired. I really don't believe that it is learned behavior.

I tried a little experiment. My kids don't know one of my cousins. They (my cousin) identifies as a lesbian but I think is really FTM (but I go by what they say). However when I talk with their girlfriend they often excludes themself because it's two women talking.

The way they present is that they cut their hair short and dresses extremely masculine. They even asked for and wears the male uniforms at work (they work at an airport doing baggage handling). She is not

I asked them who is this? Boy or girl? They (kids) instantly said, "girl." I was astounded that they could pick it out so easily. But their (cousin's) facial features are slightly feminine as they are not on T.

So yes, it is ingrained. This is a real problem if you go out into the world as a woman (or a man in the case of FTM) and people don't recognize you as one. To me it feels like I'm being de-legitimized. Sure, I get to wear dresses, skirts and whatever but being viewed as a man in the dress is simply not the same as being viewed as a woman.

This is why there is such an obsession with passing and why there is also some obsession with stealth. Sure, you can be happy with yourself in your presentation even if you don't pass. But when people constantly throw into your face the fact that you are AMAB then how does that really help alleviate your dysphoria? Remember that a lot of transition is social, and yes, how others perceive us is very important. This is why we change our identity documents, and it is why we dress how we dress. This is even why we take hormones. Otherwise we could just dress how we were before, say we are a woman, and no one would believe us. There is a certain component of being yourself on the outside but this really only matters because of how others view us.

I do really feel for people who are constantly misgendered. I used to be misgendered a lot. I still get a few eyes turned in my direction. But that doesn't mean that passing in itself is evil or wrong and that we should throw away the concept of passing.

I feel some of us might have a hard time with getting what the deal with passing is. I do try to understand it, however since really early on whenever I went out people simply called me miss or ma'am. I never really got concerned with passing after that and at this point I go 3 days without shaving and just walk out the door in what I slept in with my hair how I woke up to get my wife from work in the morning and still get gendered female so I just don't think about passing anymore. I guess that's why some of us can't get the concept because we put so little thought into it on a daily basis.

No, passing is not important.

But, comfort and SAFETY are. Somtimes passing is made a fuss of for these two rrasons. I think, that it might be better, if we ask ourselves, do I feel comfatable going out yet? Do I feel safe.

And then adress what makes us feel uncomfatable, Instead of asking if we pass. Exspecialy since those brutaly honest answers can do a lot to make us feel more uncomfatable.

I think we need to be ready to face to worst of what society can throw at us, but this takes a period of preperation. I think its important for us to have as good of an understanding of what our local areas are like. Because it is those reactions that we WILL be gambeling with every time we leave the house. (no matter how passable we are)

We need to be able to cope with the, eww, the yuck and the descusting comments. I also think that as much as reducing how often we are clocked, It might also be better for ourselves to look for ways to cope with the times we are clocked better.

Because that way, we wont need as much clock reduction aplications to feel comfatable. Dont get me wrong, I understand that comfort is not safety, and that safty brings a security that offers a considerable amoout of comfort.

But the truth is, being tras is not the only reason we as humans are killed. I personally would hate to think that I spent years? decades? of my life with a passing focus, to end up being killed by somebody that didnt give a single thought to my being trans, and that allthough I didnt pass to them I was killed because I had somthing they wanted and they killed me for it?

As it stands, there are ares that offer a trans person the privalige of being out and open even when they dont pass, but in contrast there are areas that present a need for stealth a need to pass as much as possible.

Asking if you pass in areas that offer the privalige of being out without passing, Is not necessary.
But in an area that doent offer that privalige to the un-passing it is almost certianly as must.

I see it as the duty of those that can be openly trans, whether they pass or not, to be out and open and help the mentality of acceptig areas to spread. Besides, if no one ever knows your trans, how can people say I met a (incert area of spectrum here) and they were realy nice. Or things such as they are not all like that, when faced with negative portrayal?

I understand, that for some of us, there is a need for stealth, And would never ask those individuals whatever that reason is not to be :).

I just hope that, in time progress by the privaliged will help exstend that privalige to wider areas, and removing some of that NEED some of us have.

To me the concept of passing isn't about meeting some kind of "appearance standard", it's about the world seeing me the way I see myself on the inside; it is validation of my true self. 

Quote from: iKate on August 14, 2015, 09:04:36 AM
There is really no changing nature though. People are trained to recognize gender. It is automatic and often, instant. And it is also hard wired. I really don't believe that it is learned behavior.

I tried a little experiment. My kids don't know one of my cousins. They (my cousin) identifies as a lesbian but I think is really FTM (but I go by what they say). However when I talk with their girlfriend they often excludes themself because it's two women talking.

The way they present is that they cut their hair short and dresses extremely masculine. They even asked for and wears the male uniforms at work (they work at an airport doing baggage handling). She is not

I asked them who is this? Boy or girl? They (kids) instantly said, "girl." I was astounded that they could pick it out so easily. But their (cousin's) facial features are slightly feminine as they are not on T.

So yes, it is ingrained. This is a real problem if you go out into the world as a woman (or a man in the case of FTM) and people don't recognize you as one. To me it feels like I'm being de-legitimized. Sure, I get to wear dresses, skirts and whatever but being viewed as a man in the dress is simply not the same as being viewed as a woman.

This is why there is such an obsession with passing and why there is also some obsession with stealth. Sure, you can be happy with yourself in your presentation even if you don't pass. But when people constantly throw into your face the fact that you are AMAB then how does that really help alleviate your dysphoria? Remember that a lot of transition is social, and yes, how others perceive us is very important. This is why we change our identity documents, and it is why we dress how we dress. This is even why we take hormones. Otherwise we could just dress how we were before, say we are a woman, and no one would believe us. There is a certain component of being yourself on the outside but this really only matters because of how others view us.

I do really feel for people who are constantly misgendered. I used to be misgendered a lot. I still get a few eyes turned in my direction. But that doesn't mean that passing in itself is evil or wrong and that we should throw away the concept of passing.

Kate Im with you on this.

However when the focus on passing becomes a dominant driving force in one's life I think that it can become unhealthy and obsessive.

I think it's natural for most transwomen to want to achieve most of the common cues that make up your gender to assist with passing. For females it's typically no facial hair, longer hair, softer voice and feminine clothing and accessories etc.i hate to stereotype woman, but let's face it if a trans-woman wants to strive for a butch look it sort of defeats the purpose of transition.

Once those basic ques have been adopted plus you have some time on HRT i think most trans women get to a point where they feel good about themselves. Spending time and energy working on those aspects to pass is normal I feel.

I think spending time and energy at attempting to pass on those most basic levels is important to a trans women's mental health in early parts of transiton and social acceptance.

It's all about enhancing parts that work well, and deemphasizing parts that don't. And that is the female mantra. If you really drew the short straw In the genetic lottery, then do what you can to have corrective surgeries. Just calling the need to pass "evil" is immature and shortsighted. People do this because they have a problem in front of them and either won't or don't know how to solve it. They have to put on their big girl/boy pants and do something about it. Otherwise just deal with what you have and learn to be happy with it.

I locked the topic and requested an Admin to review. The topic, in my opinion, has run it's coarse.