Susan's Place Transgender Resources

 Just curious for most of us, can you really expect to be gendered  properly during transition. It hurts immensely  not to be gendered properly , but given what we are doing and the time it takes nature to do things on its own time scale, we really can't expect perfection in most cases. There are the few that do luck out with genetics which is great. Consider we start out with a male frame and years of testosterone building that male framework. what can we really expect in a short time.   I'm in a weird spot right now , I'm at the 22 month mark and I get gendered male a lot if I don't wear make up and sometimes I do get the female pronouns. Yesterday I was buying a pizza and a girl in line called me ma'am and the clerk looked puzzled when I used my male name , but I'll also get sired . It's frustrating and pierces like a hot poker , but I really can't expect anything different consider how nature and anatomy work. Are you able to form a Teflon coat or is it just too much sometimes because you have no control other than trying your best to look proper.

I learn to brush it off now.

I don't get misgendered to my face now but I've had a few incidents at work via e-mail from people who knew me, or who default to male pronouns. They didn't talk to me in person nor interact with me.

But yeah, I do brush it off. I think we should expect a little misgendering now and again unless you are like Jazz and transitioned as a child.

Oh, and I do not use my male name unless absolutely necessary now, such as with financial instruments and stuff tied to my SSN, homeland security and law enforcement. When the legal change is done, I will simply not use it ever again.

A former mentor of mine got misgendered.
My wife gets misgendered.
My mom gets misgendered.

They are all cisgender women.

Granted, we may get misgendered more often, but it's not unheard of for cisgender women to get misgendered.

Misgendered is not the same as read/clocked/etc. Misgendered means that someone else's brain made a decision about your gender based on something - it could be facial shape, hair, voice, clothes, how they're meeting you, or just what's running in their internal dialog that has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

I know it hurts - it can feel like a sock in the gut early on. 30 years after transition, I still fill the sting.

But it happens to people. You're a person, and it's going to happen to you.

What I do (your mileage may vary) is I gently correct people, just as if they had the wrong hair color, city, or vehicle.

If someone said "This is Cindi from Romeoville," I'd interject "Joliet" in a matter of fact tone. I do the same with pronouns. No big deal, just a minor correction.

But the short answer is: "expect to be misgendered."

Quote from: cindik on August 24, 2015, 10:38:23 AM
A former mentor of mine got misgendered.
My wife gets misgendered.
My mom gets misgendered.

They are all cisgender women.

Granted, we may get misgendered more often, but it's not unheard of for cisgender women to get misgendered.

Misgendered is not the same as read/clocked/etc. Misgendered means that someone else's brain made a decision about your gender based on something - it could be facial shape, hair, voice, clothes, how they're meeting you, or just what's running in their internal dialog that has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

I know it hurts - it can feel like a sock in the gut early on. 30 years after transition, I still fill the sting.

But it happens to people. You're a person, and it's going to happen to you.

What I do (your mileage may vary) is I gently correct people, just as if they had the wrong hair color, city, or vehicle.

If someone said "This is Cindi from Romeoville," I'd interject "Joliet" in a matter of fact tone. I do the same with pronouns. No big deal, just a minor correction.

But the short answer is: "expect to be misgendered."

^^This!^^

Couldnt agree more. 31 years post everything and it doesnt even hurt anymore because I've seen it happen to too many ordinary folk and i've even done it myself so if I can get it wrong so can anyone. It's even more embarassing in a medical situation - people look at you and think "fine doctor you'll make if you can't tell the difference. lol"  :laugh:

Quote from: iKate on August 24, 2015, 10:27:48 AM
Oh, and I do not use my male name unless absolutely necessary now, such as with financial instruments and stuff tied to my SSN, homeland security and law enforcement. When the legal change is done, I will simply not use it ever again.

Yea , Jazz is something is something else. One thing I really need to do is get y documents changed. It's really hard to get gendered properly when your ID has that other person on it.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 24, 2015, 10:46:01 AM
Yea , Jazz is something is something else. One thing I really need to do is get y documents changed. It's really hard to get gendered properly when your ID has that other person on it.

Even when ordering stuff or having it shipped to me, I use my new name, not my deadname. Most times the cashier just swipes and doesn't look at the name on the credit card, plus I use Apple Pay or cash which doesn't reveal your name.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 24, 2015, 09:18:01 AM
  There are the few that do luck out with genetics which is great.

It's simple: the ones that can truly expect not to be misgendered are those who look convincingly cis for ANY reason -- 1) great genes 2) GREAT estrogen assimilation (great "estrogen receptors," as the experts say) 3) starting HRT at the onset of puberty, and 4) being intersexed. --. Those who have all those things combined together, will look 100% cis easily, but they are a very small minority, I'd bet on that.

All other people who have even the slightest androgynous or manly trait in their physique, including voice, and mannerisms to a much lesser degree, will always be at risk of being misgendered. This includes women that wear very short hair no matter how pretty or feminine they actually are, or who have very deep, malish voices and use them on the phone. Or tall women with androgynous faces and slightly or very apple-shaped bodies who like wearing androgynous or malish outfits with little or no makeup. All these women could be either cis or trans and will still be at risk of being misgendered. Bottom line, even though I totally identify as female, not non-binary, I still totally hate how ridiculously binary our current society is, and how people have to forcibly fit into stereotypes to avoid the risk of being even remotely perceived as the opposite gender. So ridiculous. So, women HAVE TO wear dresses or skirts, long hair and makeup, as well as always smile and use an annoyingly high-pitched with  exaggerated inflections' kind of voice,  and men have to wear pants, short hair, show at least a bit of facial hair, speak as low, monotone and choppy as possible, with as little inflection as they can manage, so as to avoid sounding "feminine" or "gay", so both genders can never ever be mistaken for the other in public? That's so lame, yet sadly, that's mostly our current state of affairs in this world, with very few exceptions!

Cheers

Bibi B.

Realisticly? I accidentally misgender people from time to time.

I want to see people making an effort... but I do not expect perfection. Nothing in life is perfect.

Malice on the other hand, is not acceptable.

I think a lot of times it's just not knowing how to handle the situation from the stand point of the clerk or cashier. I mean first off we are a rare breed and people don't encounter us on a regular bases. Then early in transition  you cant tell which way a person is transitioning. People want to be nice , but it can be confusing. I've lived in my neighborhood for over 20 years. It's the downtown of a university town. People know me a male. I've change so much that they're confused on what to call me just out of not wanting to offend.

Quote from: iKate on August 24, 2015, 10:54:18 AM
Even when ordering stuff or having it shipped to me, I use my new name, not my deadname. Most times the cashier just swipes and doesn't look at the name on the credit card, plus I use Apple Pay or cash which doesn't reveal your name.

This reminds me of a few weeks ago when I was at the gas station and used my loyalty card (which is registered in my new name).  I had paid in cash and was getting the vibe from the cashier that she wasn't sure how to address me, she grabbed the receipt out of the printer so fast to see what name was on it I almost laughed out loud.

To answer the OP:  No, I don't expect to be gendered correctly 100% of the time right now, but I really do appreciate it!  Most of the time I'm not gendered at all and I'm weird enough about it that I pay attention to things like how other people are gendered in a group that I'm in....  For instance, if everyone in line in front of me gets a "sir" and I get nothing I consider it a win for me.  Even though it's not a ma'am, I'm doing something right.  Getting male gendered sucks, and it does hurt.....  But as long as it's not coming from a malicious intent I can forgive it.

that's happened to me getting the neutral and I appreciate getting that.

Quote from: stephaniec on August 24, 2015, 09:18:01 AM
Just curious for most of us, can you really expect to be gendered  properly during transition. It hurts immensely  not to be gendered properly , but given what we are doing and the time it takes nature to do things on its own time scale, we really can't expect perfection in most cases. There are the few that do luck out with genetics which is great. Consider we start out with a male frame and years of testosterone building that male framework. what can we really expect in a short time.   I'm in a weird spot right now , I'm at the 22 month mark and I get gendered male a lot if I don't wear make up and sometimes I do get the female pronouns. Yesterday I was buying a pizza and a girl in line called me ma'am and the clerk looked puzzled when I used my male name , but I'll also get sired . It's frustrating and pierces like a hot poker , but I really can't expect anything different consider how nature and anatomy work. Are you able to form a Teflon coat or is it just too much sometimes because you have no control other than trying your best to look proper.

I don't care but i'd like it to be adressed properly when another decade passes.

It looks like society heading that way for all of us.. Hopefully less then a decade. Some guy in front of me in line at a coffee shop told the cashier that he'd pay for her orange, I was the one with the orange, made my day. Estrogen pretty powerful stuff.

Genderig isnt an exact science, and more of an educated guess based upon various associations.

This is how we can have such terinology as "girly boys" and "tom boys"
I allways luagth at this, and think how can a boy be GIRLY, and how is a girl a tom BOY. This is the process of gendering, somthing that is not sex but is asociated with either. So these terminology reffer to exspressed behaviours/characteristics.

If we suddendly get a text from an unknown number and it read "I cut myself shaving again last night" we would assume the message came from a male. Because we asociate shaving with men firstly, and with nothing ells in the message to suggest otherwise that is our gender diagnosis.

And the opposit would happen if the message read "waxing is such a pain" This doesnt mean we think only men shave and only women wax, it justs means in the absence of information sugesting otherwise we automatically associat those two things with those two genders.

But gendering doesnt stop at activities, how one sounds and how one speaks are also gendered, aswell as what one wears and how they look in what they wear.

And believe it or not, I myself have been in the situation, whilst sat with a cupple other women, have had somebody say to sombody ells, while pointing directly at me, they used to be a man, and the other person has said "I know, Im not stupid, it obviouse, the're wearing make up, and those shoes dont go with that dress"

I was in jeans and a T-shirt, with knee hight boots. With one day stubble for a laser apoinment later that day. And I never were make up. I also have inherited my dads realy bushy brows and I refuse to spend ages grooming them despite how many people say, you need to do your eyebrows lol.

I also have exsperience with people mis-gendering on the phone to correcting themsleves in person, aswell as a phone pass, becoming a mis-gender in person.

So, what do I exspect?

I exspect people who know me, to gender me correctly, I exspect people working with or for me in a profesional setting to use my legal name and title. (gender not legaly changed yet, so I will make allowences in a profetional setting for the "wrong pronouns") And when this changes I will also exspect the "right pronouns" to be used.

As far as people that dont know me? I as a person make gender asociations all the time, and as a person I am free to get it wrong acationally. I would be a hypocrit to not allow these mistakes in others.

Now when mis-gendering is done on perpose exspecialy in argument with my right to self identify, then I have a problemb, but this is due to a person being hatefull when they dont know me, aswell as the hypocracy of a person who Identifies sugesting I cant Identify.

But this is the behavour of a hater, and haters hate. So I exspect to exsperience that too.

I think that you'll probably notice this less the further you get into your transition. As long as it's not malicious, I'd probably just politely correct them and continue to expect that it will happen.

Some people will misgender you out of habit like parents, siblings As long as its not malicious I don't think its a big deal. When its the general population, it comes down to whether you're visibly or audibly trans*.
Some people are douche's and will misgender you because they're jerks.
Some people will misgender you because they think its funny. They're also jerks
Some will misgender you by accident, if they've perceived your face or voice as male, they may automatically use a masculine pronoun because its an automatic brain response. They've spent their entire life associating types of words with types of faces, and you're asking them to change a life long learned habit, they will make mistakes. Its not malicious.

At a basic human cognition level its like holding up a red flag and saying to the visual centre of their brain "I know this flag looks red but, it's really blue, and it would mean a lot to me if you would call it blue please"

Humans learn to assign gender by facial anatomy and skin texture with incredibly high accuracy from a very young age. Females out perform males in perceiving gender.  If you're visibly trans*, and someone is gendering you correctly, they're actually going out of their way to make you comfortable and happy. That's a good, kind thing and incredibly polite but, if they slip up, you really cant blame them.

Quote from: Isabelle on August 24, 2015, 07:50:22 PMIf you're visibly trans*, and someone is gendering you correctly, they're actually going out of their way to make you comfortable and happy. That's a good, kind thing and incredibly polite but, if they slip up, you really cant blame them.

^ this  :)

Here's the thing ...

When I talk with people face-to-face, sure, they can see my body and my face, they can see I'm trans.

However, they see without question that my gender is (mostly) female. Its in the way I talk, the way I act, and the way I move.

Gender is a matter of who we are. So, it takes meeting somebody to get a true sense of their gender. When you take into account that many people haven't met a trans person before - sure, some people will miss the point.

outside of this site , I've only seen 1 trans (as far as I know) in the past 10  years. I use to work in Boys Town Chicago and I would see trans everyday, but once I stopped working in Boys Town I rarely see anyone. So to me its just mostly a question of being unfamiliar with the situation. People just unsure of how you want to be addressed.

Good question, stephaniec. In a word, no ! but it really hurts  :(

I've been Mis-Misgendered !A Girl friend and I were dancing at a local party ; music was really loud. She gets all loved up with an Italian ;) bloke ( guy ) and he asks her to ask me if I'll ask ( Still with me ? ) the band to play some blues. My friend shouts to him, I'll ask him !( Meaning the singer in the band ) and the Italian bloke thought she meant me ! He looks at me in that cute puzzled, disbelieving way. So cute  ;)

Paula, <3 X.

yea, its weird the longer I'm on estrogen the cuter the guys get.

I would expect to be gendered correctly even once I do start HRT and transitioning physically.

Quote from: TheKaiser on August 25, 2015, 10:25:21 AM
I would expect to be gendered correctly even once I do start HRT and transitioning physically.

It won't be automatic though. You have to expect that people won't see "woman" unless you present as one, and even so they may see "man in a dress." 

Correcting people is not bad in these instances but set your expectations realistically.

Quote from: iKate on August 25, 2015, 11:03:04 AM
It won't be automatic though. You have to expect that people won't see "woman" unless you present as one, and even so they may see "man in a dress." 

Correcting people is not bad in these instances but set your expectations realistically.

Thanks :) that moved something in me. It will be tough but if I hear you girls talk, it might get easier someday  :-*

I get properly gendered at work at least 3/4 of the time, unfortunately in half of those the people "correct" themselves and apologize afterward. This is with me in the same "uniform", khakis and a polo shirt, that most of my coworkers, male and female, wear. I'm sure I could up my numbers if I wore at least foundation to work. Even more so when I get my eyebrows professionally shaped.  Back to the point, it hurts to be misgendered. It hurts more to have someone properly gender me then go back on it. I can't blame them, though. It's just my point in transition.

QuoteI get properly gendered at work at least 3/4 of the time, unfortunately in half of those the people "correct" themselves and apologize afterward.

When do they change their mind? is it your voice perhaps? Why don't you wear foundation? I'm not saying you need to, its just interesting that you mention it.

Even though I'm pre everything, including of having to maintain my appearance to male as per military regulations (can't wait until May 27th 2016, when the ban lifts!)
I shouldn't get mad or upset when people gender me by male pronouns, but I do. I usually try and brush it off as much as possible, but when you get misgendered at a 99.5% of the time, as well as being in the span of a single minute by five others as well as management and co workers, that's when the straws break.
But as of every day of this week I have had a solid one person per day gender me correctly at work, being face to face. It's a small step forward. I wont get into the details (due to trying to copy and paste my original post to not mess up, but ending up messing everything up and accidentally wiping my whole post for the word "and") but Sunday and today (Tuesday) were huge and eventful as to be gendered properly.

Kate <3

Quote from: Isabelle on August 25, 2015, 09:06:13 PM
When do they change their mind? is it your voice perhaps? Why don't you wear foundation? I'm not saying you need to, its just interesting that you mention it.

Before I even speak they see my (faint) beard shadow and most likely my eyebrows. I don't wear foundation for two reasons, I was out of work from October until July and I can't yet afford it, and my work is active enough that I would tend to sweat it off. When I do get some I'll need an expensive one that can stand up to that. Money explains the eyebrows, too. I need to get a professional to do them the first time. I'm not concerned. I'll get there.

My best evidence that I'm right is that I'm more often correctly gendered NY elderly people whose vision might be a bit weak.

Katiepie, I'm sure AFAB soldiers get misgendered more than non-soldiers, too. I've seen pictures that took me a moment to interpret.

Work is kind of an issue of familiarity. I've had two coworkers deadname me and misgender me within the past week. It's not that they don't know, they definitely know. It's just that they got so accustomed with me that it's just automatic. It will take some time for them to unlearn. However, I will likely be long gone by then.

Well military is my kinda second job at the moment, reservist. But my main at being retail and such, its not so bad, just gotta realize that there will be times of good things happening, and times of bad things to happen. I know there will always be the watch guy who sticks with calling me Kate, regardless to what hr says and the official going by my last name in my retail job. It will be a process, and so then that is only time ticking by, before the day when I can full time and it will be glorious!

Kate <3

I don't when I'm wearing female clothing. When dressed up in boy's clothes I get called "he", as expected, most of the time. Which is sort of the point - if I wasn't then there'd be no point in wearing them. I do, oddly, get stared at quite openly and have been asked more than once if I was a female to male transgender!!! I can't blame people for that; my body language is all wrong for boy.

I suppose that's working for me at the moment, although misgendering is too easy. I did it myself last night!!!  :embarrassed:

Luckily nobody noticed. I was upstairs at a community centre with a few friends and the door was open on to the staircase. We heard someone come in and one of the group was like: "That will be .... I don't think you've met her yet."

And I said: "No, I'm pretty sure I haven't met her, but I would like to". At which point the person, still downstairs and unseen, spoke. I heard and, shamefully, blurted out my first thought: "Oh that's probably not her; it sounds like a boy has come in."

Bear with me, or try to, it was an open event so entirely possible that the new person coming in was male. But, as you may have worked out, I was the one who was wrong. It's not like my voice is fantastic either; it's only good enough to creep into 'woman who sounds like a man' - but nothing changes the fact that I misgendered.

Having said that, there were reasons for doing so?  :embarrassed: Almost everyone gets misgendered at times. Well everyone toward the middle of the gender poles I suppose, me included. By that I mean assuming me to be female when I'm attempting to dress male.

p.s. I know said person didn't hear me, which may be worse if anything, but I'm still so embarrassed about what I did. Which was nothing more onerous than making an assumption, it's hardly like I'm going to be prejudiced. I don't have any of those!! They didn't hear me, and I saw no need to tell them as that would just reinforce something potentially negative. What's a girl to do?  ??? Blerrrgh - I wanted to crawl into a hole at that point.

I've been finding that women that are around my age get my gender right. Women that are my grandparents' age card me, presumably to get it right and then they get it wrong because my ID isn't changed. I've only had one guy gender me correctly.

It really doesn't bother me too much though except for when I'm in public and need to pee. Because it's so back and forth, I've been sticking to the men's room so far, but the last time I did that in a restaurant, I got a really creepy look from someone in there. It was the first time I ever felt threatened by being in there. I dress androgynous, so it's not like I'm walking in there in a dress.

It depends on how much you look like a female. I get addressed "sir" most of the time. But I'm not presenting as female. Just kind of androgynous. A few times I've gotten called "miss" which amused me, since I wasn't wearing makeup or anything. I'm guessing it's the long hair, and that I'm small for a guy.

But really, we can't expect people are going to gender us the way we want if that's not what they see. They aren't being rude, they just can't tell. Every now and then I see someone and think "is that a girl or a guy?" I'm not sure! I'd avoid pronouns!

As an example I was with my 10 year old daughter (who only sees me as daddy) at a supermarket. The cashier was a cis woman who clearly had a hormone imbalance, as she had facial hair that she had shaved. It was quite a lot actually.

So my daughter asks me, "is that a lady or a man?" I said it's a lady and she said "but she has hair on her face." So I had to explain why.

So the point here is that people use visual cues to determine the sex of another person. These cues include the size, facial shape and features, hair length, the presence of breasts, voice, clothing, and so on.


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