Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Firstly; I would like to thank all those who replied to the previous Androgyne: Frame of Reference (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,19108.0.html) thread.

Secondly I shall reveal the actual intention of that topic and it's outcome:
I have resembled everyone's frame of reference and looked for similarities in order to establish a Common (yet fluctuating) Androgyne Frame of Reference that is as following:

Androgyne Common Frame of Reference: Solitary, Invisible, Both, Neither, Misunderstood, Free, [Gender dysphoric], Spiritual, Balanced, Not socially constructed; unbound, Divine, Other, Non-Binary, Transcendent, Confused, Naïve, Childlike, Failing to conform, Unique.


Now the question, of course, is; to what extend everyone can relate to this Common Frame of Reference concerning Androgyny[...] You could see it as a somewhat established group identity that would give the large sphere a more identified existence/section.

Naturally I don't expect everyone to be capable of relating to it completely, but it is interesting nonetheless. Again; thank you for your cooperation. 8)

I am very suprised.  Reading that list, I can relate to all of the points to a large degree (though some more than others).  Maybe we have more in common than we realise :)

I can mostly relate to the compilation. "Gender dysphoric" is the sticking point. I am gender euphoric. I have NEVER felt my absence of a Male or Female Gender Identity was "wrong" or that I was "missing" something mentally or physically desirable that others possess. I am whole and complete, the best of both binary genders combined in a way that creates a state of being genderless. Gender-blessed because I'm neither a Man nor a Woman, and yet both...Both and Neither simultaneously. Androgynes have the potential to possess the excellence of each binary gender without the weaknesses of one gender or the coarseness of the other, a synergy of the binary genders which results in something unique and wonderful, something entirely different from the Gender Identities of a Man and/or a Woman.

I feel no gender dysphoria, or any other internal conflicts, due to possessing an Androgyne Identity - or a natal female body.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

   I think it's the body that does it for you, Emerald.  I don't think I would have dysphoria if I had a female body unless certain attributes were oversized.  I guess I'll never know.
   I think it is important to note that a person can be gender variant as Emerald is, but not have body issues.

   I think the common Frame of Reference bags what I feel but couldn't say.

Quote from: Rebis on September 15, 2007, 02:25:11 PM
   I think it is important to note that a person can be gender variant as Emerald is, but not have body issues.

Definitely, it's the main reason I'm tempted to put it between brackets.
We'll see depending how others feel about that suggestion. 8)

I answered mostly. Although I've had issues of discomfort regarding my body, it doesn't seem to be consistent with everyone who identifies as androgyne. I think you really captured the essence no_id, thanks for doing this.

Zythyra

This set of frames doesn't really fit for me.

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 16, 2007, 11:00:35 AM
This set of frames doesn't really fit for me.

are you going to vote, Kaimialana?

Quote from: y2gender on September 16, 2007, 10:56:38 AM
I answered mostly. Although I've had issues of discomfort regarding my body, it doesn't seem to be consistent with everyone who identifies as androgyne. I think you really captured the essence no_id, thanks for doing this.

Zythyra

Putting dysphoria between brackets (by common fluctuation).

And hey, it's my pleasure: I just follow my brain when it goes odd. ;)

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 16, 2007, 11:00:35 AM
This set of frames doesn't really fit for me.

A very interesting statement that I can't help but reply to with further elaboration that I decided to keep behind the scenes due to the somewhat complicated nature.

There is quite a trick to these two threads that aren't very apparent on the surface:

Part I [Androgyne treated as an Individual (introspection)]: "What does Androgyne mean to you"
Part II [Androgyne treated as Subject (common perception)] "What does Androgyne mean"

In essence it's slightly bending the symbol-signify Communication Theory:
Part I [Symbol: Androgyne, Signify: Individual Frame of Reference]
Part II [Symbol: Frame of Reference, Signify: Androgyne]

Formula wise: AG = CFoR (AG + IFoR)

Divine !!! heh!!!

Yessss, that's me...

Can't see any other connection (just joking).


Anyway: I can relate to it little

I picked "I can relate to it" because at some point in time, I related to all of those.  I don't feel gender dysphoric now, but as a child I certainly knew that I wasn't the same as everyone else.  I relate to most of them now, but transcendent and childlike are the closest for me.  :)

This is a really interesting topic!  Thanks, no_id!!!

Quote from: no_id on September 16, 2007, 11:30:07 AM

Quote from: y2gender on September 16, 2007, 10:56:38 AM
I answered mostly. Although I've had issues of discomfort regarding my body, it doesn't seem to be consistent with everyone who identifies as androgyne. I think you really captured the essence no_id, thanks for doing this.

Zythyra

Putting dysphoria between brackets (by common fluctuation).

And hey, it's my pleasure: I just follow my brain when it goes odd. ;)

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 16, 2007, 11:00:35 AM
This set of frames doesn't really fit for me.

A very interesting statement that I can't help but reply to with further elaboration that I decided to keep behind the scenes due to the somewhat complicated nature.

There is quite a trick to these two threads that aren't very apparent on the surface:

Part I [Androgyne treated as an Individual (introspection)]: "What does Androgyne mean to you"
Part II [Androgyne treated as Subject (common perception)] "What does Androgyne mean"

In essence it's slightly bending the symbol-signify Communication Theory:
Part I [Symbol: Androgyne, Signify: Individual Frame of Reference]
Part II [Symbol: Frame of Reference, Signify: Androgyne]

Formula wise: AG = CFoR (AG + IFoR)

So, for those of us that aren't communicative theorists, sociologists or linguistic anthropologists, does this mean that while some things can be agreed upon, the diverse array of identifications makes it difficult to pin a definition down? Or is my understanding of symbolic maths completely lacking?

Glad I'm not alone...I didn't understand the formula exactly.  Is it AndrogyneGender=CulturalFrameofReference(AndrogyneGender+IndividualFrameofReference)?  Also, can we have an explanation of the symbol-signify Communication Theory?

It would be interesting to break the characteristics down between subgroups of androgyne people.  For example, androgyne-nongendered versus androgyne-bigendered, etc., since we are such a diverse group of people.

Just a heads up: I am working on an understandable elaboration, but with work I (unfortunately) don't have a lot of time on my hands. Nevertheless, I'll try to post before work tomorrow morning, and else a.s.a.p.

Yes, I do think it's important to let people know you're not ignoring their replies/questions ;)

Again I'm having my doubts that androgyne applies to bigender/two-spirited but its nice to belong somewhere. Marq by purposes of association with Mia is gender variant and Mia may not even fall in the transexual category, so by default....


Marq and Mia

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 17, 2007, 12:43:49 PM
So, for those of us that aren't communicative theorists, sociologists or linguistic anthropologists, does this mean that while some things can be agreed upon, the diverse array of identifications makes it difficult to pin a definition down?

Something like that. I don't know too much about communication theory, but I'll try to explain my view, which is basically a linguistic one.

For background, we need the concept of a 'linguistic sign'. As proposed in the 1910's or so, a sign is a pair of form (that is, a series of sounds or letters) and meaning. In everyday terms, a word is a sign, but so is a sentence; modern cognitive linguistics claims that there is no sharp division between words and idiomatic expressions (or even things like sentence schemata, but let's not go there). In that sense, red, good-bye, and I'll be back are fundamentally pretty similar.

In order to learn a new sign, one has to see or hear it used. That is the main process for learning new language: not from reading a dictionary and a grammar, but from hearing, speaking and getting feedback. Kids obviously do a lot of that, but adults do it as well. Now, since the sign is a pairing of form and meaning, 'learning it' includes both its syntactic properties (e.g. whether one can say 'I'm an androgyne', or 'I androgyned last night') and its semantic properties (i.e. the meaning). On a different axis, 'learning it' involves integrating observed language use (that is, how others use androgyne) into one's own linguistic and cognitive system. In this process, the frame of reference (or conceptual domain, whatever one's pet theory calls it) is important, and so are the neighbouring concepts in the same frame of reference (in the case of androgyne, stuff like gender, male, female and what not).

What makes it interesting is that there is an interplay between the community and the individual: language is at the same time something defined by the collective speakers of the language and by each individual personally. A word does not have exactly the same meaning for two people, but the meanings are similar enough that communication is possible. Also, human conceptualisation is to some extent influenced by biology: for instance, the primary colours have a basis in how human vision works, and likewise it seems obvious that the gender terms are to some extent grounded in anatomy.

So, all in all, the formula says essentially that how I interpret androgyne in the discussions over here is derived from what I mean by the word, in the context of my internal frame of reference, all filtered through my idea of the common frame of reference that this community has.

Or that's how I understood it.  :)

  Nfr

Quote from: Marq and Mia on September 18, 2007, 01:59:15 AM
Again I'm having my doubts that androgyne applies to bigender/two-spirited but its nice to belong somewhere. Marq by purposes of association with Mia is gender variant and Mia may not even fall in the transexual category, so by default....


Marq and Mia

You know, Marq and Mia, I personally believe that bi-gender is a separate identification. Whereas androgyne describes a person with a mixed and unseparated gender identitiy, yeilding someone that displays characteristics of both gender (or not, depending on you define the word, I guess), a bi-gender separates the two, as you do, living as two people. Or am I wrong about that? There seems to be a distinctness between the two identifications, and I would never call myself bi-gender, understanding this.

Posted on: September 18, 2007, 07:12:41 AM

---

Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 18, 2007, 03:30:52 AM

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 17, 2007, 12:43:49 PM
So, for those of us that aren't communicative theorists, sociologists or linguistic anthropologists, does this mean that while some things can be agreed upon, the diverse array of identifications makes it difficult to pin a definition down?

Something like that. I don't know too much about communication theory, but I'll try to explain my view, which is basically a linguistic one.

For background, we need the concept of a 'linguistic sign'. As proposed in the 1910's or so, a sign is a pair of form (that is, a series of sounds or letters) and meaning. In everyday terms, a word is a sign, but so is a sentence; modern cognitive linguistics claims that there is no sharp division between words and idiomatic expressions (or even things like sentence schemata, but let's not go there). In that sense, red, good-bye, and I'll be back are fundamentally pretty similar.

In order to learn a new sign, one has to see or hear it used. That is the main process for learning new language: not from reading a dictionary and a grammar, but from hearing, speaking and getting feedback. Kids obviously do a lot of that, but adults do it as well. Now, since the sign is a pairing of form and meaning, 'learning it' includes both its syntactic properties (e.g. whether one can say 'I'm an androgyne', or 'I androgyned last night') and its semantic properties (i.e. the meaning). On a different axis, 'learning it' involves integrating observed language use (that is, how others use androgyne) into one's own linguistic and cognitive system. In this process, the frame of reference (or conceptual domain, whatever one's pet theory calls it) is important, and so are the neighbouring concepts in the same frame of reference (in the case of androgyne, stuff like gender, male, female and what not).

What makes it interesting is that there is an interplay between the community and the individual: language is at the same time something defined by the collective speakers of the language and by each individual personally. A word does not have exactly the same meaning for two people, but the meanings are similar enough that communication is possible. Also, human conceptualisation is to some extent influenced by biology: for instance, the primary colours have a basis in how human vision works, and likewise it seems obvious that the gender terms are to some extent grounded in anatomy.

So, all in all, the formula says essentially that how I interpret androgyne in the discussions over here is derived from what I mean by the word, in the context of my internal frame of reference, all filtered through my idea of the common frame of reference that this community has.

Or that's how I understood it.  :)

  Nfr

Ahh, THATS the stuff. Yes, I definetly understood that. Comunnication isn't my branch of study, but I sure find it interesting.  :D

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 18, 2007, 07:16:05 AM
You know, Marq and Mia, I personally believe that bi-gender is a separate identification. Whereas androgyne describes a person with a mixed and unseparated gender identitiy, yeilding someone that displays characteristics of both gender (or not, depending on you define the word, I guess), a bi-gender separates the two, as you do, living as two people.

Here the question again is what we mean by androgyne -- or gender identity, for that matter. In itself, androgyne is merely a label used to describe gender (identity); for quite a few here it's more or less an overall term for anything that is not clearly male or clearly female. Used like that, bigender is one of the subcategories, just like neutrois (no gender at all) or ambi- or intergender (an unseparable mix of gender traits).

None of these is really anyone's gender identity, though. The identity is one's view of their place on the gender continuum, but saying one is bigender, or androgyne, is just an attempt to describe that location. It's quite a bit like colour, overused as that metaphor may be: even though my favourite colour is green, there are lots of shades that fall into that category that I can't stand. Similarly, it's quite correct to state that my gender identity is androgyne -- but even so, there are lots of gender variations within the androgyne spectrum that I really don't identify with, even though they are obviously valid for someone else.

If you can figure out whether this 'gender' thing is something to laugh at or cry over, please let me know.  :)

  Nfr

Nfr-
I live in the Dark Ages... so I just simply use a dictionary as needed. :icon_wink:

Kaimialana, Marq and Mia-
I also agree this is true and correct!
Bigender and Androgyne are not the same... just as Man and Woman are not the same.
True also, Bigender is not a subclass of Androgyne. Bigender is within the binary genders, a dual membership in both genders. Androgyne is outside of the binary genders.

'Bigender' is a newly coined word literally meaning "two gender' or 'twice gendered'. Two separate genders within one individual. Dual-gendered, alternately a man and a woman. A person who feels distinctly like a man, and a woman, over time.

'Androgyne' is an ancient word literally meaning "manwoman" which refers a blend or a mixture of what is male and female within one individual without a separation into what is male and what is female. Androgyne refers to a person who is both a man and woman simultaneously, to the point of being neither one nor the other... neither of the binary genders/sexes.

We already know about Male gender identity and Female gender identity. Both and Neither are a bit more difficult to understand
Here's one way to begin sorting it all out...

Bigender Identity - Both a Man and a Woman. A dual gender identity wherein one binary gender eclipses the other repeatedly over time.
Androgyne Identity - Neither a Man nor a Woman. An independent gender identity beyond the binary genders and and outside of the male/female gender continuum.

I suspect there is yet another gender identity classification... five different gender identities in all, no more no less.

Neuter/Neutrois Identity - Null-gendered. Completely devoid of gender, gender vacant, or gender deprived.

  1. Man
  2. Woman
  3. Both  (Bigender)
  4. Neither  (Androgyne)
  5. None of the above  (Neuter-Null-Neutrois, etc.)

Ah, but we shall soon see if this reflects the reality of gender and gender identity or if it's just my vivid Androgyne imagination. My opinions and observation are offered merely as a matter of satisfaction for my own curiosity and the common interest.
:icon_bunch:
One last thing...
I have used a descriptive term for each gender classification, but I believe it is important for those who are actually in a particular gender group to choose their own descriptive term(s) as they see fit.

-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:

Quote from: Emerald on September 18, 2007, 08:56:44 AM

We already know about Male gender identity and Female gender identity. Both and Neither are a bit more difficult to understand
Here's one way to begin sorting it all out...

Bigender Identity - Both a Man and a Woman. A dual gender identity wherein one binary gender eclipses the other repeatedly over time.
Androgyne Identity - Neither a Man nor a Woman. An independent gender identity beyond the binary genders and and outside of the male/female gender continuum.

I suspect there is yet another gender identity classification... five different gender identities in all, no more no less.

Neuter/Neutrois Identity - Null-gendered. Completely devoid of gender, gender vacant, or gender deprived.

Thanks for these Emerald. Funny, I sometimes describe myself as neither, sometimes as none of the above, occasionally as both... guess I have to make up my mind  ;D

Really though, the term androgyne works best for me, both for describing the way I feel, and also at least partially because of it being an ancient and beautiful sounding word.

zythyra

Thank you for the elaboration Nfr! :)
You must have noticed that to be understandable isn't one of my primary skills ne?...

Nevertheless, to induce (even more) clarity I'll give the following example:

                                         (symbol)
                                         FLOWER

Person A                                                         Person B
Frame of reference                                            Frame of reference
(Associates flower with)                                     (Associates flower with)
GIFT                                                               TEARS

GIFT is a more common signify (assciated meaning) for FLOWER than TEARS just as a common signify for ANDROGYNE are BOTH, NEITHER, OTHER. Therefore, in order for Person A to understand Person B a Communication process has to take place.


                  "Why do you associate FLOWER with TEARS?"

Person A <------------communication process----------------> Person B
               
                         "Because I am Allergic to flowers"

By this Communication Process the Common (Shared) Frame of Reference becomes:
FLOWER = GIFT, TEARS
Although Person A may not have allergies, by elaboration they can understand how TEARS can be associated with FLOWER and accept it as part of the frame.

Thus as to explain the formula:

QuoteFormula wise: AG = CFoR (AG + IFoR)

FLOWER =  Common Frame of Reference: TEARS+GIFT (FLOWER Indivdual Frame of Reference (GIFT) (TEARS) [= Common Frame of Reference])


Hence, what I would like to see in this thread is that those who cannot associate with the common frame completely to point out which words(signify) they cannot relate to Androgyne, and for those who can to explain their reasoning.

Quote from: Emerald on September 18, 2007, 08:56:44 AM

Nfr-
I live in the Dark Ages... so I just simply use a dictionary as needed. :icon_wink:

Kaimialana, Marq and Mia-
I also agree this is true and correct!
Bigender and Androgyne are not the same... just as Man and Woman are not the same.
True also, Bigender is not a subclass of Androgyne. Bigender is within the binary genders, a dual membership in both genders. Androgyne is outside of the binary genders.

'Bigender' is a newly coined word literally meaning "two gender' or 'twice gendered'. Two separate genders within one individual. Dual-gendered, alternately a man and a woman. A person who feels distinctly like a man, and a woman, over time.

'Androgyne' is an ancient word literally meaning "manwoman" which refers a blend or a mixture of what is male and female within one individual without a separation into what is male and what is female. Androgyne refers to a person who is both a man and woman simultaneously, to the point of being neither one nor the other... neither of the binary genders/sexes.

We already know about Male gender identity and Female gender identity. Both and Neither are a bit more difficult to understand
Here's one way to begin sorting it all out...

Bigender Identity - Both a Man and a Woman. A dual gender identity wherein one binary gender eclipses the other repeatedly over time.
Androgyne Identity - Neither a Man nor a Woman. An independent gender identity beyond the binary genders and and outside of the male/female gender continuum.

I suspect there is yet another gender identity classification... five different gender identities in all, no more no less.

Neuter/Neutrois Identity - Null-gendered. Completely devoid of gender, gender vacant, or gender deprived.

  1. Man
  2. Woman
  3. Both  (Bigender)
  4. Neither  (Androgyne)
  5. None of the above  (Neuter-Null-Neutrois, etc.)

Ah, but we shall soon see if this reflects the reality of gender and gender identity or if it's just my vivid Androgyne imagination. My opinions and observation are offered merely as a matter of satisfaction for my own curiosity and the common interest.
:icon_bunch:
One last thing...
I have used a descriptive term for each gender classification, but I believe it is important for those who are actually in a particular gender group to choose their own descriptive term(s) as they see fit.

-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:

I disagree, Emerald. Androgyne doesn't mean neither, it is both as bigender, but rather than it being a thing of dualities, it is a mixed mush of identification. Theres really no separation or distinctness as in bigender, but that doesn't mean that both are there. Its a different kind of both, if that makes sense, but it is not an negative (lack) like "neither" or "none". those things to me seem to be more associated with netrois. I also don't think that Androgyne is outside the male/female spectrum.

Perhaps thinking of the particle-wave properties of quantum matter in comparison helps with these ideas. A quantum is both a particle and a wave, but not in some separate disinct parts that consist of particle and of wave. They are both simultaniously particle and wave, and depending upon how you observe a quantum unit, it may look like a particle or a wave but it is both at the same time.

Does using that metaphor help?

Quote from: no_id on September 18, 2007, 12:25:25 PM
Hence, what I would like to see in this thread is that those who cannot associate with the common frame completely to point out which words(signify) they cannot relate to Androgyne, and for those who can to explain their reasoning.

For you to assume that we're capable of reasoning reveals you to be the greatest fool to ever walk the planet.      >:D



I'm only joking.  Please don't hurt me.  :'(

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 18, 2007, 06:24:50 PM
I disagree, Emerald. Androgyne doesn't mean neither, it is both as bigender, but rather than it being a thing of dualities, it is a mixed mush of identification. Theres really no separation or distinctness as in bigender, but that doesn't mean that both are there. Its a different kind of both, if that makes sense, but it is not an negative (lack) like "neither" or "none". those things to me seem to be more associated with netrois. I also don't think that Androgyne is outside the male/female spectrum.

Perhaps thinking of the particle-wave properties of quantum matter in comparison helps with these ideas. A quantum is both a particle and a wave, but not in some separate disinct parts that consist of particle and of wave. They are both simultaniously particle and wave, and depending upon how you observe a quantum unit, it may look like a particle or a wave but it is both at the same time.

Does using that metaphor help?

In other words, you do not consider those who identify as neutrois, neither or other without any relation to the binary sexes to be Androgyne?... Careful with wording, some may take offense: there's a large difference between "Neutrois are not Androgyne" and "In my opinion neutrois are not Androgyne because..."

Quote from: Rebis on September 18, 2007, 08:10:20 PM
For you to assume that we're capable of reasoning reveals you to be the greatest fool to ever walk the planet.      >:D

I'm only joking.  Please don't hurt me.  :'(

Doesn't that statement say more about you than it does about me?....

:P........... Na, I trust you guys to be capable of... God-knows-what... <.< ;)

Quote from: no_id on September 18, 2007, 11:25:27 PM

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 18, 2007, 06:24:50 PM
I disagree, Emerald. Androgyne doesn't mean neither, it is both as bigender, but rather than it being a thing of dualities, it is a mixed mush of identification. Theres really no separation or distinctness as in bigender, but that doesn't mean that both are there. Its a different kind of both, if that makes sense, but it is not an negative (lack) like "neither" or "none". those things to me seem to be more associated with netrois. I also don't think that Androgyne is outside the male/female spectrum.

Perhaps thinking of the particle-wave properties of quantum matter in comparison helps with these ideas. A quantum is both a particle and a wave, but not in some separate disinct parts that consist of particle and of wave. They are both simultaniously particle and wave, and depending upon how you observe a quantum unit, it may look like a particle or a wave but it is both at the same time.

Does using that metaphor help?

In other words, you do not consider those who identify as neutrois, neither or other without any relation to the binary sexes to be Androgyne?... Careful with wording, some may take offense: there's a large difference between "Neutrois are not Androgyne" and "In my opinion neutrois are not Androgyne because..."

Okay, so, now that I'm confused further, let me put this in perspective. If Androgyne has presence of gender, and netrois has absense of gender, then how can netrois be androgyne? Thats my question. Not that it matters anyway, since, as it was already stated, every person is a new gender identification, so really these common frames of reference that you seem to want to find will never be truly common.

If I AM insulting anyone, I would be happy to delete my earlier comments because its not worth a fight over terms that everyone uses differently.

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 18, 2007, 11:42:32 PM

Quote from: no_id on September 18, 2007, 11:25:27 PM

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 18, 2007, 06:24:50 PM
I disagree, Emerald. Androgyne doesn't mean neither, it is both as bigender, but rather than it being a thing of dualities, it is a mixed mush of identification. Theres really no separation or distinctness as in bigender, but that doesn't mean that both are there. Its a different kind of both, if that makes sense, but it is not an negative (lack) like "neither" or "none". those things to me seem to be more associated with netrois. I also don't think that Androgyne is outside the male/female spectrum.

Perhaps thinking of the particle-wave properties of quantum matter in comparison helps with these ideas. A quantum is both a particle and a wave, but not in some separate disinct parts that consist of particle and of wave. They are both simultaniously particle and wave, and depending upon how you observe a quantum unit, it may look like a particle or a wave but it is both at the same time.

Does using that metaphor help?

In other words, you do not consider those who identify as neutrois, neither or other without any relation to the binary sexes to be Androgyne?... Careful with wording, some may take offense: there's a large difference between "Neutrois are not Androgyne" and "In my opinion neutrois are not Androgyne because..."

Okay, so, now that I'm confused further, let me put this in perspective. If Androgyne has presence of gender, and netrois has absense of gender, then how can netrois be androgyne? Thats my question. Not that it matters anyway, since, as it was already stated, every person is a new gender identification, so really these common frames of reference that you seem to want to find will never be truly common.

Atheism indicates a lack of belief; not believing is also a belief. I believe that is one of the primary reasons why several non-believers refuse to call themselves Atheist.

Nevertheless, as pointed out in an earlier thread; Androgyny is more apparent as an umbrella term with many variations. In your statement you assume that Androgyne always has presence of gender which describes gender fluctuating spectrum as a whole. The question is: do you believe Androgyny to be located on the binary gendered fluctuating line?

Additionally, neutrois suffer from gender dysphoria; a target-'gender' is null-gender which correspond with the gender identity of being non-female and non-male alias: non-binary -- neither.

Common frames of reference can only be established through communication processes, mutual understanding and acceptance. It requires a thinking 'outside-of-the-box', or perhaps more accurate: that there is no box. Common frames of reference are a tool, a medium in order to create understanding, association and elaboration. They are fluctuating.


Gahhhhhhhhh it's 7AM............... z.z

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 18, 2007, 06:24:50 PM
I disagree, Emerald. Androgyne doesn't mean neither, it is both as bigender, but rather than it being a thing of dualities, it is a mixed mush of identification. Theres really no separation or distinctness as in bigender, but that doesn't mean that both are there. Its a different kind of both, if that makes sense, but it is not an negative (lack) like "neither" or "none". those things to me seem to be more associated with netrois.

You and I are in agreement, Kaimialana!
An Androgyne is both genders, but an Androgyne is neither a Man, nor a Woman, nor crossgender, nor Bigender also.

I usually describe myself as neither a man nor a woman to others to get my initial point across. Yes, I'm both. And yes, most people totally misunderstand the word 'both' in the Androgyne use of the term. It's like trying to describe water to someone who has only experienced hydrogen and oxygen as gases... to someone who has never seen the rain. or misty fog, or a mighty ocean, or morning dew, or sparkling freshly fallen snow.  Often it's easier to begin by explaining what an Androgyne is not than to try to explain all that an Androgyne is.

Androgynes are both genderless and gender-full at the same time. Androgynes are genderless because 'gender' is more than what is to be a man or a woman, gender is the DIVISION of humanity into men and women. Androgynes were never cleaved by the gender knife! Androgynes are gender-full because they are whole, the 'all' from which male and female gender is derived.

Androgynes are Neither men nor women, Both men and women, and More than men and women.
'Androgyne' is the synergy of male and female gender.

-------------------
Gendered Balloons - An simple illustration of gender identity:

Humans are represented by balloons.
There are only two things which may be put into a balloon, hydrogen and/or oxygen.
Hydrogen and oxygen are representative of female gender and male gender respectively.

Men are balloons of oxygen gas.
Women are balloons of hydrogen gas.
Bigenders are balloons with a mix of hydrogen and oxygen gases.
Androgynes are water balloons. (Water is hydrogen and oxygen)
Null-gendered are empty non-inflated balloons.

-------------------
Neutrois:
A Neutrois is a person who desires to medically eliminate their body's sexual markers. 'Neutrois' is not a gender identity in the same way 'Transsexual' is not a gender identity. A Neutrois may be of ANY psychological gender identity. Gender identification is but one of many reasons a Neutrois individual may desire nullification of their body's sexual characteristics in the same way individuals who seek SRS do not necessarily possess the gender identity of the opposite sex. A Neutrois' reasons for nullification may stem from gender identification, a fear of rape or committing rape, fear of conceiving a child, aversion to ejaculation or menstruation, etc. Neutrois often experience the most severe gender dysphoria imaginable.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote
Gendered Balloons - An simple illustration of gender identity:

Humans are represented by balloons.
There are only two things which may be put into a balloon, hydrogen and/or oxygen.
Hydrogen and oxygen are representative of female gender and male gender respectively.

Men are balloons of oxygen gas.
Women are balloons of hydrogen gas.
Bigenders are balloons with a mix of hydrogen and oxygen gases.
Androgynes are water balloons. (Water is hydrogen and oxygen)
Null-gendered are empty non-inflated balloons.

I can agree with that model for the most part. I think what is maybe happening here, again, is that people want to include the Null-gendered and Bi-gendered folk under androgyne umbrella because those folks don't want to find themselves not having somewhere to belong. Let me give you an example if we (M&M) were not allowed to post under the androgyne section because of maybe some sort of strict enforcement, where would we post. Theres not a bigender section. Then do I consider Mia a transexual and Marq a significant other. Things are starting to unravel at that point. So under a consistant definition of Androgyne, bigender and null-gender probably shouldn't belong but no one wants to be left out and androgyne folk generally don't want to turn anyone away either.

We can mostly related to the same concerns and that binds us together if even if not under the androgyne term.

Marq and Mia

Quote from: Emerald on September 18, 2007, 08:56:44 AM

I live in the Dark Ages... so I just simply use a dictionary as needed. :icon_wink:

Nah, it's not a dark ages thing. Just face it, you are normal.  ;)

Slightly more seriously, though, I haven't yet seen a dictionary which discusses gender identity in sufficient detail to really make the distinctions on the androgyne/bi-gender/ambi-gender/null-gender scale that we do. We simply know more about this thing than the average lexicographer.

Quote from: Emerald on September 19, 2007, 02:10:01 AM

Men are balloons of oxygen gas.
Women are balloons of hydrogen gas.
Bigenders are balloons with a mix of hydrogen and oxygen gases.
Androgynes are water balloons. (Water is hydrogen and oxygen)
Null-gendered are empty non-inflated balloons.

That's a nice one. Just remember folks, whatever you do, do not flame the bi-genders. :D

Quote from: Marq and Mia on September 19, 2007, 02:24:34 AM
I can agree with that model for the most part. I think what is maybe happening here, again, is that people want to include the Null-gendered and Bi-gendered folk under androgyne umbrella because those folks don't want to find themselves not having somewhere to belong.

Yes. Also, it is useful to have an umbrella term for the various non-binary types; androgyne is occasionally used for that purpose outside the T community (at a guess, mainly because most people don't see a more fine-grained gender system). It's easy to continue that usage and find another term (like ambigender or intergender) for those of us who would fit in the narrower definition of androgyne. Another option would be to lump bi-gender, null-gender and androgyne (in the narrow sense) under an umbrella term of, say, genderqueer. I don't see why that would be better, though.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 19, 2007, 02:53:06 AM
Another option would be to lump bi-gender, null-gender and androgyne (in the narrow sense) under an umbrella term of, say, genderqueer. I don't see why that would be better, though.

  Nfr

Odd that you would mention that Nfr.
This forum was named "Genderqueer" at one time, a childboard of "Transgender Talk".
Over a year ago, when I was an Admin on Chat, I suggested that an "Androgyne Talk" forum be created. There were but a handful of posts in the Genderqueer childboard, so it was decided that "Genderqueer" would became "Androgyne Talk" and moved to a top level forum to stand beside Transgender Talk, Transsexual Talk, Crossdresser Talk, Intersex Talk, and SO Talk.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?&topic=5730.0
Had I been aware that Bigender also existed as an independent gender identity I would have proposed a "Bigender Talk" forum too, but at that time Bigenders were largely assumed to be either Transgenderists, no-op Transsexuals, or Crossdressers who had developed a separate crossgender persona over the years. Perhaps the newly coined word, "Bigender", had not yet come into common use before then.

Moral of the story:
One only knows their own gender identity. To know and understand the gender identity of someone else, it is unnecessary for them to tell you about it!

As our knowledge of gender grows, our understanding improves and changes to become enlightenment. :angel:

BTW, I don't think of myself as being anything close to genderqueer. I think of myself as being normal!

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

To be honest though, what would we talk about in a Bigender forum. We're pretty mellow as a group when it comes to physical changes because we know anywhere we go, there we are. Changing ourselves physically in any significant way we either trade one incorrect body for another incorrect body or blur everything so that neither of two inside match the body.

I've been meaning for weeks now to start a nice solid topic on what it really means to be bigendered, I just don't know what section to put it under. Maybe a bigender section would be the only appropriate place to fit it but then no one will read it because we're "abnormal". Any suggestions on that though, which board? Androgyne, Transgender, General?

And speaking of which where are the other bigender folk? I know we're around. Well I'm around and I'm real.

Marq and Mia
The infamous M&M

Answering the question that the post is asking, (not divert it from one of the tangents already travelled):

I answered mostly.

The points that I dont agree with are the spiritual, religious, metaphysist stuff. To me those points are too much, and are more subjective. Also the words that are more children oriented.

Spiritual- I am not spiritual or religious or anything like that. To me this is a point of religion not of gender identity. My religion is a hybrid of zen/psychology, with not beliefs in god(s). More humanistic.

Divine- This was almost laughable. I assume this is following the standard definition of "of or pertaining to a god". Also a religious definition that would depend on one's view of god, in comparison to one's gender identity. Also denoting some sort of superhuman, god given powers or something like that.

Transcendent- Maybe if used in the proper context, but I think easily used with mysticism and new age context. Also much religious connotation. I hate words that try to show some sort of superior understanding or sage-ness.

Childlike- Maybe if used more metaphorically rather than literal. I am involved in a adult type relationship, and dont consider me anything near child-whatever. If used more in the sense of prior gender divide. But gender divide is a whole issue in itself. That would assume the existence of a real permanent gender divide, something which I am against. Although I have used in my own experience that I was divided, I think using such words have more connotation to pedophilia, middle age conflicts, and immaturity. I would rather at this point in my life, recognize the lack of division and fluidity of gender rather than boxes, divisions, and separation.

Naïve- If used in a wrong manner would assume lack of cognitive understanding. Also might mean that there is a truth outside that one does not yet realize. In other words might mean androgyne being more fantasy than reality.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 19, 2007, 02:53:06 AM

Quote from: Emerald on September 18, 2007, 08:56:44 AM

I live in the Dark Ages... so I just simply use a dictionary as needed. :icon_wink:

Nah, it's not a dark ages thing. Just face it, you are normal.  ;)

Slightly more seriously, though, I haven't yet seen a dictionary which discusses gender identity in sufficient detail to really make the distinctions on the androgyne/bi-gender/ambi-gender/null-gender scale that we do. We simply know more about this thing than the average lexicographer.

Quote from: Emerald on September 19, 2007, 02:10:01 AM

Men are balloons of oxygen gas.
Women are balloons of hydrogen gas.
Bigenders are balloons with a mix of hydrogen and oxygen gases.
Androgynes are water balloons. (Water is hydrogen and oxygen)
Null-gendered are empty non-inflated balloons.

That's a nice one. Just remember folks, whatever you do, do not flame the bi-genders. :D

Yes, I also like that one. And I also agree, does this mean that bi-genders are highly explosive? Of course, the mixture would have to be two parts female to one part male to make the best explosion.  :D

I guess I fall into the group (which may or may not consist of a single person, me) of people who see androgyne as on the binary spectrum, but located centrally, in such a way that it is of both but in a non-separated, non-binary way.

And thank you Emerald, that definition of netrois cleared up alot of questions I had about it, especially in it being similar to transsexual as it is not a gender identity but a gender dysphoria category. Non-gendered would be a "gender" identity then?

Not that everyone agrees with this, of course.

Posted on: September 19, 2007, 10:31:08 AM

---

Quote from: Marq and Mia on September 19, 2007, 05:25:27 AM
To be honest though, what would we talk about in a Bigender forum. We're pretty mellow as a group when it comes to physical changes because we know anywhere we go, there we are. Changing ourselves physically in any significant way we either trade one incorrect body for another incorrect body or blur everything so that neither of two inside match the body.

I've been meaning for weeks now to start a nice solid topic on what it really means to be bigendered, I just don't know what section to put it under. Maybe a bigender section would be the only appropriate place to fit it but then no one will read it because we're "abnormal". Any suggestions on that though, which board? Androgyne, Transgender, General?

And speaking of which where are the other bigender folk? I know we're around. Well I'm around and I'm real.

Marq and Mia
The infamous M&M

I would be interested to learn more about bigenders, M&M. It seems so interesting to me, the separation and distinctness, and difficult too, like living as two different people.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on September 19, 2007, 07:05:33 AM
Answering the question that the post is asking, (not divert it from one of the tangents already travelled):

I answered mostly.

The points that I dont agree with are the spiritual, religious, metaphysist stuff. To me those points are too much, and are more subjective. Also the words that are more children oriented.

Spiritual- I am not spiritual or religious or anything like that. To me this is a point of religion not of gender identity. My religion is a hybrid of zen/psychology, with not beliefs in god(s). More humanistic.

Divine- This was almost laughable. I assume this is following the standard definition of "of or pertaining to a god". Also a religious definition that would depend on one's view of god, in comparison to one's gender identity. Also denoting some sort of superhuman, god given powers or something like that.

Transcendent- Maybe if used in the proper context, but I think easily used with mysticism and new age context. Also much religious connotation. I hate words that try to show some sort of superior understanding or sage-ness.

Childlike- Maybe if used more metaphorically rather than literal. I am involved in a adult type relationship, and dont consider me anything near child-whatever. If used more in the sense of prior gender divide. But gender divide is a whole issue in itself. That would assume the existence of a real permanent gender divide, something which I am against. Although I have used in my own experience that I was divided, I think using such words have more connotation to pedophilia, middle age conflicts, and immaturity. I would rather at this point in my life, recognize the lack of division and fluidity of gender rather than boxes, divisions, and separation.

Naïve- If used in a wrong manner would assume lack of cognitive understanding. Also might mean that there is a truth outside that one does not yet realize. In other words might mean androgyne being more fantasy than reality.

I wonder if it is all in our understanding of those words.  Despite having grown up in the Bible Belt, I was pretty lucky in the church that I went to as a child (no hellfire and brimstone for me, thankfully) and church was not a bad place for me.  On the first "androgyne frame of reference" thread, I put that I felt evolved and elaborated that as a child, I actually thought that I might have been an angel or something else not human.  Of course, I don't really feel that way now because I am not a religious person, but as a child, I knew of human existence and divine existence.  Those were the things I knew and understood and that was my frame of reference as a child...I knew nothing of gender identity.  I just knew I was different and I suppose the angel thing was my justification.  We all need something to cling to, from time to time.

I do relate more to transcendent and childlike.  Transcendent, according to dictionary.com (my best friend at times  ;)) defines transcendent as, "going beyond ordinary limits; surpassing; exceeding."  That's the first definition and it's the one that I identify with.  I feel like I am beyond the normal binary.  In a way, I almost feel superior to the binaries.  Of course, that may just be my justification.  I need to feel superior in order to not feel inferior.  I don't dislike people who fit into the binaries.  I'm just beyond the binaries.

Childlike is defined as "like a child, as in innocence, frankness, etc.; befitting a child: childlike trust."  It is important to note that 'childlike' and 'childish' are different.  To me, 'childlike' refers to innocence, but that's not to say I am innocent as far as adult issues are concerned.  It's more of an approach really.  I tend to take things at face value, I'm very direct and frank, I am trusting.  I am a mature adult and I do mature adult things.  But my approach to life is often similar to a child's.  That's how I identify as childlike.  There is something interesting that the professor of the gender studies class I took said about children.  He said that small children are unaware that they cannot choose to be a boy or a girl whenever they feel like.  He was refering to very young children, around 3 or so.  A child that young is still going to be unaware of the binary social constructs.  Yes, they know that there are boys and girls, but they aren't really old enough to understand gender identity.  A child of that age, be it boy or girl, can at one moment be playing with costume jewelry and feather boas and the next want to play in the mud.  I think that is part of the childlike frame of reference.  For me, it might just be the inability to differentiate between the two. 

It does get pretty confusing when we try to define "androgyne".  I'm not big on labels or being labeled, though it is nice to fit into a group.  At any rate, we can all relate to one another because we are non-binary, and really, being able to relate to each other is all that matters.

*laughing* Yeah, how can we agree on a common frame of reference for androgyne when we don't have a truly common frame of reference for the words that we use to describe the common frame of reference with.  :D

Indeed -- everyone does define words slightly differently...

Thats why the communication process must take place for clarity :)

Quote from: no_id on September 18, 2007, 12:25:25 PM


                                         (symbol)
                                         FLOWER

Person A                                                         Person B
Frame of reference                                            Frame of reference
(Associates flower with)                                     (Associates flower with)
GIFT                                                               TEARS

GIFT is a more common signify (assciated meaning) for FLOWER than TEARS just as a common signify for ANDROGYNE are BOTH, NEITHER, OTHER. Therefore, in order for Person A to understand Person B a Communication process has to take place.


                  "Why do you associate FLOWER with TEARS?"

Person A <------------communication process----------------> Person B
               
                         "Because I am Allergic to flowers"

By this Communication Process the Common (Shared) Frame of Reference becomes:
FLOWER = GIFT, TEARS
Although Person A may not have allergies, by elaboration they can understand how TEARS can be associated with FLOWER and accept it as part of the frame.

But that doesn't mean the items become common (shared) frames of reference, but rather that the items consisting of the individual frames of reference are understood. Just because I understand why someone else associates flowers with tears, doesn't mean I will begin to share that same association of flowers with tears.

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 19, 2007, 10:38:05 AM
I would be interested to learn more about bigenders, M&M. It seems so interesting to me, the separation and distinctness, and difficult too, like living as two different people.

Well we've certainly made our fair share of posts on the topic to help others understand what we're going through. I think the index post that Ken/Kendra has been maintaining at the top of the Androgyne section has links to many of the bigender posts. Of course you can also check out my blog on here: Harmony: Balance of Opposites, which is for the most part perspectives from us individually and comparisons. Of course any questions you don't get answered through those means I'm perfectly happy to address in PM or some topic.

As far as like living as two different people goes, two different people living together is closer. Our life experiences are shared for the most part, supporting each other every step of the way. Being bigendered is more appropriately called two-spirited in the literal sense, and first and foremost is not based entirely on gender. It is more of a spiritual state first and foremost. Much like achieving zen or something, extra perspective is higher then physical concerns. We look foward to your questions.

Marq and Mia

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 19, 2007, 11:42:42 PM
But that doesn't mean the items become common (shared) frames of reference, but rather that the items consisting of the individual frames of reference are understood. Just because I understand why someone else associates flowers with tears, doesn't mean I will begin to share that same association of flowers with tears.

they are shared in that its a collaborative effort... you don't personally have to agree with all the shared frames of reference, you submit yours, A submits theirs, B submits theirs, and we take all three and combine them into a shared FoR.... Through the communication process you understand why A and B feel the way they do, even if you do not personally agree.

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 19, 2007, 11:42:42 PM
But that doesn't mean the items become common (shared) frames of reference, but rather that the items consisting of the individual frames of reference are understood. Just because I understand why someone else associates flowers with tears, doesn't mean I will begin to share that same association of flowers with tears.

Quote from: Alison on September 19, 2007, 11:59:40 PM
they are shared in that its a collaborative effort... you don't personally have to agree with all the shared frames of reference, you submit yours, A submits theirs, B submits theirs, and we take all three and combine them into a shared FoR.... Through the communication process you understand why A and B feel the way they do, even if you do not personally agree.

This thread isn't about Communication Theories. If you want to know more about Communication try finding the book called Theories of Human Communication (unfortunately not too sure about the author). It's used in University courses.

Can we please get back on topic without snip-snapping?

you've unleashed quite a beast with this topic, no_id.   :D  it is pretty interesting to see how different our individual interpretations are.

An in-between Evaluation

When I started the first thread of the Androgyne Frame of Reference I did not know, did not have the slightest clue of what it was I exactly wanted to achieve -- I was unaware of my motivation[...] Nevertheless, after reading, re-reading and observing the dots located in my brain (that connect rather sporadically) I realised my objective, and due to the current outcome I can nearly bapthisize it as an utopic objective...

To establish a group identity, to expand a group identity, to create understanding, acceptance, to expand views -- to reply to the oral misunderstanding (that has roamed these forums recently) -- with not discussion, with not conflict, but with answers -- elaboration; common understanding; language, words, symbols and emotion/passion that is human, not spurious.

An utopic objective I wrote; a fantastical goal which process, once put into effect, only seems to achieve the opposite; segregation, misunderstanding, hither and thither even some bitterness, differentiation, variation, alienation -- disassciation, detatchment. A glass ball shattered -- shards spread around the floor and retrieved by different individuals -- while I cannot help but wonder if it will be put back together again[...]

Did I find my answer?... Maybe I found more than I desired. Then again, wouldn't that be a Utopia just as well?... Perhaps that is my place.

I think you have done something really good with this thread no_id. Despite the differences of opinion you can feel everyone getting together to try and come to some common understanding. I would not be too worried about the fragmented nature of our frames of reference. This is a start and I think in time our frame of reference will change to include themes like belonging, acceptance, value, talent etc..

I think the big issue in this thread has been the question about what does androgyne actually include? Does androgyne include the bigenders and the null-gendered (and other?) ? I think it should. For starters there are few enough of us as there is and there is strength in numbers. Also I think we do share a lot in terms of our frames of reference and face many of the same issues.  Perhaps a good definition for androgyne as a group might be anyone that does not have a gender identity that is only male or only female?

I appologize for making a mess of everything No_ID.

   I forgot what we were doing.  But then I realized that this thread is more about the votes.  As long as people vote honestly, we should be okay.

   What do the votes say? or, is it too early to process them?

Quote from: NickSister on September 20, 2007, 03:48:01 PM
I think you have done something really good with this thread no_id.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Cheers for no_id! :icon_dance:

Quote
Perhaps a good definition for androgyne as a group might be anyone that does not have a gender identity that is only male or only female?

Again, yes. I don't really care what word we use for it, but it seems clear that we need some sort of an inclusive group identity for people who don't fit in the binary gender system. Androgyne is as good a name as any, so we might as well go with it -- especially since that's the way it is described in Susan's list of standard terms (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.msg112044.html#msg112044) for these forums.

That said, it's also pretty clear that we need a more detailed terminology of the various identities lumped under 'androgyne'. I'm not sure we need all that much discussion to refine that terminology, but if we do, that discussion might be split into a new thread.

Quote from: Kaimialana on September 20, 2007, 07:30:05 PM
I appologize for making a mess of everything No_ID.

No and no. First, you didn't make a mess but rather a couple of important contributions to the discussion -- thank you for doing so. Second, if you feel it was a mess, the rest of us (up to and including any deities around, since you say 'everything'  :) ) should share the blame. Third, if you really want to feel bad, the rest of us could jump on you for misspelling apologise.  >:D

  Nfr

Quote from: Rebis on September 20, 2007, 08:49:39 PM
   I forgot what we were doing.  But then I realized that this thread is more about the votes.  As long as people vote honestly, we should be okay.

   What do the votes say? or, is it too early to process them?

I'll work on an overview. Meanwhile, I would still like to see everyone's list of words mentioned in the FoR that they feel alienated to. (Yes, I do have some ideas, but need to expand them; Nfr's request to refine terminology plays a good role in it).

No worries Kaimialana; chaos is a rather natural process when dealing with unknown factors -- all the more why it is sometimes important to attempt to get everything back on track. However, that is something we'll need to achieve altogether, and I believe that this is a good start. Hence; cheers to you all. 8)

take off the hippy ->-bleeped-<- like divine and transcendent, and i'm there.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 21, 2007, 01:25:24 AM

No and no. First, you didn't make a mess but rather a couple of important contributions to the discussion -- thank you for doing so. Second, if you feel it was a mess, the rest of us (up to and including any deities around, since you say 'everything'  :) ) should share the blame. Third, if you really want to feel bad, the rest of us could jump on you for misspelling apologise.  >:D

  Nfr

:D That figures. I suck at spelling.

Let's take a look at the following:

Divine, Spiritual, Transcendent, Childlike, Naïve

Why do you feel these are fit or unfit (KK already elaborated - thank you for that) ?

Let's see.

Divine? There's nothing divine in being androgyne, although the reverse can be argued -- a God who's supposed to have created the whole humankind as His image cannot very well be only male or only female. That isn't nearly enough for including 'divine' in the frame, though.

Spiritual? Well, if you interpret that very boradly, I guess this could be applicable, in a 'know thyself' kind of sense. Still, not really.

Transcendent? This is getting closer, and to some extent I can agree with it, in the sense of transcending the traditional gender system.

Childlike? Maybe. I recognise some such traits in myself, including a certain reluctance or refusal to grow up. I've never associated it with my gender issues, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that they are related somehow.

Naïve? I'm not so sure I qualify any more. Moreover, in gender issues my remaining naivete is balanced by a by now well developed cynicism. :)

Other than these, the only one I'm not sure about is Not socially constructed. That's mainly because I didn't quite understand what that was intended to mean; certainly, I don't identify with the normal socially constructed genders, but on the other hand the social aspect of gender is just where my androgyne identity is strongest.

  Nfr

   I'm fine with things the way they are, but then, I tend to settle easily.

Divine
For me, Divine has meaning beyond the deity related ones.
   Divine as in supremely good or superb. Exquisite.
   it can be a verb like to divine, to sort out, figure, or to glean in a way which may appear mysterious or supernatural, but is not supernatural of course.

Spiritual
    In a Jungian sense.  To be complete.

Transcendent
    Beyond convention.

Childlike
    Able to believe what I feel.

Naïve
    I base this word on how I feel when I see others interacting in ways that I know of but cannot really grasp. I tend to be taken by surprise a lot by other people's actions.
      Maybe this is just a personal trait.

    I guess Childlike, Transcendent, Spiritual, and Divine are qualities that I associate with my femininity along with being intuitive.  And so, I don't know if it's a valid thing to do, but I guess I'm trying to squeeze aspects of my feminine nature into some of the words I like for the FoR.
   I don't associate religion or mysticism with any of the words. I have a theory that much of the language used for spiritual matters exists because the words weren't available for psychological terms until the past hundred or so years. I tend to forget words with more than four letters in them and so I revert to the words of the ancients.
   Maybe we can find alternate modern words or something.

My point of view.

Childlike, Naive, Spiritual, Transcendent, Divine - It looks a progressive scale!
Is that the reason that all Androgynes do not relate to each word on this list?  :eusa_think:

Perhaps this may help us to understand and discover the answers....
The one thing all Androgynes share in common is a lack of gender identification or a gender bias for one binary gender in preference to other binary gender. Androgynes feel an equal amount of internal 'maleness' and 'femaleness' which can range from 'nothing/nothing', to 'half and half', and beyond to 'all and all'.

A quick illustration:
Male and Female gender is often depicted on a continuum. Androgyne is a middle point on the Male-Female continuum, bisecting the Male/Female line in the center.

Ah, but Androgyne is on another continuum also... it's OWN continuum.


The Androgyne continuum ranges from a 'nothing/nothing' Null-Gender Androgyne experience at one end of the continuum, a 'half and half' or '50/50' Intergender(?) Androgyne experience in the middle, to an 'all and all' Transcendent/Divine Androgyne experience on the opposite end of the continuum.

Likewise, gender dysphoria may range from agonizing body dysmorphic symptoms of Null-gendered/Neutrois Androgynes to gender euphoric for Transcendent Androgynes.

Childlike, Naive, Spiritual, Transcendent, Divine...
Perhaps these words are part of an Androgyne Continuum also?

-----------------------------
Per request:

Each of these words fits my own gender experience and is most strongly felt in the words Spiritual, Transcendent, and Divine... Transcendent in particular.

Childlike - of or befitting a child as in innocence, honesty, guilelessness, simplicity or candor.
Naive - willingness to trust, freedom from self-consciousness, natural, childlike, simple goodness, simplicity of nature, absence of artificiality.
Spiritual - of or pertaining to the spirit, soul, mind or intellect, as distinguished from the body or physical nature, lacking material body form or substance.
Transcendent - free from constraints of the physical, beyond or outside the ordinary range of human experience or understanding, exceeding or surpassing usual limits especially in excellence, divine.
Divine - Supremely good, pleasant, beautiful or magnificent, surpassing excellence, characteristic of or befitting a deity, angelic.

Male-gendered or Female-gendered individuals would not likely associate any of these terms on this list with their own experience because all these words are non-gender specific. All the words are generally considered to be positive traits and virtues in any human.... or earthly angel.  :angel:

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote from: Rebis on September 21, 2007, 08:42:41 PM
   I'm fine with things the way they are, but then, I tend to settle easily.

Divine
For me, Divine has meaning beyond the deity related ones.
   Divine as in supremely good or superb. Exquisite.
   it can be a verb like to divine, to sort out, figure, or to glean in a way which may appear mysterious or supernatural, but is not supernatural of course.

Spiritual
    In a Jungian sense.  To be complete.

Transcendent
    Beyond convention.

Childlike
    Able to believe what I feel.

Naïve
    I base this word on how I feel when I see others interacting in ways that I know of but cannot really grasp. I tend to be taken by surprise a lot by other people's actions.
      Maybe this is just a personal trait.

    I guess Childlike, Transcendent, Spiritual, and Divine are qualities that I associate with my femininity along with being intuitive.  And so, I don't know if it's a valid thing to do, but I guess I'm trying to squeeze aspects of my feminine nature into some of the words I like for the FoR.
   I don't associate religion or mysticism with any of the words. I have a theory that much of the language used for spiritual matters exists because the words weren't available for psychological terms until the past hundred or so years. I tend to forget words with more than four letters in them and so I revert to the words of the ancients.
   Maybe we can find alternate modern words or something.

My point of view.

I agree.  That's how I feel about those words.  They aren't religious or metaphysical to me. 

Analysing poll results

Quote
To what extend can you relate to the common frame of reference:

Solitary, Invisible, Both, Neither, Misunderstood, Free, [Gender dysphoric], Spiritual, Balanced, Not socially constructed; unbound, Divine, Other, Non-Binary, Transcendent, Confused, Naïve, Childlike, Failing to conform, Unique.

Quote
I can relate to it.                    5 (27.8%)
I can mostly relate to it.          8 (44.4%)
I can somewhat relate to it.    2 (11.1%)
I can relate to it little.             2 (11.1%)
I cannot relate to it.               1 (5.6%)
                                                   
Total voters: 18

In retrospect that means:
13 (72.2%): could largely or completely relate to the common FoR.
6 (27.8%): could largely not or completely not relate to the common FoR.

What were the most prominent factors for individuals to vote 'Yes' or 'No'
    One of the first encountered differentiations, and also common was gender dysphoric; body dysmorphic; not every Androgyne experiences this factor. However, this doesn't insinuate a clash of interest, yet does shine light on the most dominant segregation in the Androgyne community: those who do not wish to modify their physical, sexual appearance and those who do.

To further analyse this; within the group who do experience gender dysphoria there are also two different interests; those who wish to masculinise/feminise their physical, sexual appearance and those who wish to nullify their physical, sexual appearance -- Other/Intergender and Neutrois/Nullgender.

    However, when stripping physical concerns and shifting the focus on introspection there seems to be another differenatiation that is not linked to gender dysphoria, and ignores the differentiating groups on that principle.

Childlike, Naive, Spiritual, Transcendent, Divine are poignant terms associated with a more enlightened principle of being -- a spiritual minset in the more ethereal, blissful sense of definition rather than religious. This witness of being is not associated to (carried by) all seperate individuals and promotes the segregation of groups who do and those who do not

    Therefore, when analysing the poll results and varying reasons for voting in can be concluded that motivations are attached seperately to physical and non-physical argumentations. Moreover, this shows that (focus: Emerald's Andorgyne Continuüm) within the Androgyne continuüm physical and non-physical positions are occupied seperately: they are fluctuating, and that in retrospect the most correct Common Frame of Reference for Androgyne is in fact the most simplistic one:

An identification of non/not-one binary... that lays on par with the definition of Gender Variation. Hence the question is; is Androgyne an Umbrella-term or truly a gender identification, and if the latter; what is the 'true' definition of Androgyne if placed under the Gender Variant umbrella?


Brought to you by no_id now they finally have a day off....   

Quote from: no_id on September 28, 2007, 06:38:01 AM
Hence the question is; is Androgyne an Umbrella-term or truly a gender identification, and if the latter; what is the 'true' definition of Androgyne if placed under the Gender Variant umbrella?

''Androgyne' is not an umbrella term. 'Androgynous' and 'Androgyny' are umbrella terms. These two words refer to outward, observable traits and behaviours that are a blend of what is masculine and feminine, an absence of what is masculine and feminine, or a reversal of what is masculine and feminine.

An 'Androgyne' is a person, an individual with an Androgyne Identity. The word 'Androgyne' is used in the same way a cisgendered biological male is a 'Man' because he has a Male Gender Identity and a biological male who is transsexual is a 'Woman' because nhe has a Female Gender Identity.

The term 'Androgyne Identity' refers to a specific gender identity, an internal psychological state of being.
Androgyne Identity is purely a matter of the mind, unobservable by others... as are all gender identities.
Androgyne Identity stands in sharp contrast to Male Gender Identity, Female Gender Identity, and a Bigender Identity (a binary gender variant).
Androgyne Identity is distinctive due to the absence of self-identification with the gender identities of Men and Women.

Individuals with an Androgyne Identity do not feel as they are Men or Women beyond the physical sex of their body. It is a constant mental state. Like all gender identities, it is not believed to be subject to change. Any Transsexual will bear witness to the statement "Male Gender Identity and Female Gender Identity are lifelong mindsets". In contrast, Bigender Identity is a changeable psychological state that shifts and alternates between Male and Female gender. In further contrast, Androgyne Identity is unchanging, stable, a gender type that is neither Male nor Female gender which is described as feeling as if it encompass both the binary genders... or neither of the binary genders.

Male Gender Identity = a Man.
Female Gender Identity = a Woman
Bigender Identity = a Man and a Woman, alternating.
Androgyne Identity = not a Man, not a Woman, nor alternating between a Man and a Woman.

This forum is named "Androgyne Talk - A place for those who identify as Androgyne."
Androgynes are known as the silent majority of the Transgender world.
This forum was created to give a voice to the most unnoticed, unseen, and often marginalized people in the Transgender Community.
The creation and existence of this forum on a Transgender Support website is important because there is so little information available about people who do not have a Male and/or a Female Gender Identity. Too many Androgynes have made the mistake of assuming if they are not Cisgender their only other option is to be or become, the 'opposite' sex, the 'other' binary gender. Many Androgynes have spent years, even decades, switching from male to female trying to find which of the binary genders they belong to... but neither of the binary genders is the right gender for an Androgyne. Some Androgynes have tragically transitioned to the opposite sex with HRT and SRS only to discover they were on the opposite side of a fence that never applied to them to begin with.

Binary gender system-
'Man' and 'Woman' are the binary genders.
Bigender is a gender variant within the binary genders, alternating between the two binary genders.
Androgyne is not of the binary genders.
Androgynes aren't a part the binary game, it as a flawed counting system.
While the rest of the world counts to two, we count to three...
Androgynes break the gender binary.

Does one not see something remarkable here? 'Androgyne' is a gender variant only if 'Man' and 'Woman' are are considered to be gender variants also!

Androgyne Identity and  body modification-
For an Androgyne Identity, nothing is gained from transitioning from one sex to the other... nothing to be gained from adding the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex either. If anything, Androgynes seek to downplay or eliminate the sex markers of their natal body to a null-sexed body or a prepubescent body. Most Androgynes do not seek body modification. In contrast, Bigenders tend to prefer the addition of the secondary sexual characteristic of the opposite sex without losing the sex markers of their natal sex, a dual-sexed body.

Androgyne Identity and Clothing-
Crossdressing to express one's 'femininity' or 'masculinity' is not an Androgyne Identity trait. The 'gender value' of clothing is of little or no relevance to an Androgyne. Generally, Androgynes prefer gender-neutral clothing if available. Most Androgynes wear the casual and comfortable attire of their natal sex often along with garments casually worn by the opposite sex. Realizing they are not Cisgender, and before discovering that there is third gender identity classification beyond the binary genders of Man and Woman, an Androgyne may experiment with intentional crossdressing in the quest to discover if they are crossgendered (MtF or FtM). Crossdressers (cisgendered) and  Bigender individuals (dual-gendered) possess a lifelong need or desire to crossdress, perceiving their 'other clothing' as having a very powerful gender value. Transsexuals (crossgendered) also place a high gender value on clothing, strongly preferring garments that are culturally associated with their core gender identity. Intentional crossdressing, in this sense, is not an Androgyne Identity trait. Androgyne tend to wear what they please with little to no regard for which sex or gender would usually wear it.

Bottom line-
If we desire to understand the nature of gender and gender identity, we must be willing and able to understand the difference between a binary  gender identification (man and/or woman) and a gender identification that is outside and beyond the binary genders. Androgyne is a unique gender entirely different and separate from the traditional binary genders or variations within the binary genders.

Repeated for emphasis- Androgyne is not a gender variant within the binary genders. Androgyne is a third gender, a gender classification of equal standing and value as the genders of Man and Woman.

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Emerald.. Where's the "In my opinion" part?...  ;)

Looking in the major English language Dictionaries for both words.
Here are definitions of Androgyne. Most definitions refer to androgyne as an "androgynous person".

There are no definitions for bigender in the dictionaries yet. Though one would assume that eventually all common used words make it to the dictionary.

Androgyne Dictionary Definitions:

MSN Encarta 1. androgynous person: somebody who seems to have both male and female sexual characteristics
2. biology  Same as  hermaphrodite (sense 1)
[Mid-16th century. Via French and Latin< Greek androgunos< andro- "man" + gunē "woman"]

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861585521


Oxford Dictionary /andrjin/
• noun 1 an androgynous individual. 2 a hermaphrodite

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/androgyne?view=uk

Marriam-Webster Etymology: Middle English androgine, from Latin androgynus
: one that is androgynous
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=androgyne

American Heritage NOUN: An androgynous individual
http://www.bartleby.com/61/26/A0292600.html

Rather the term seems more prevalent used since Androgyne Online's creation, and their addition of the information to the Wikipedia.

Which defines it as such Definition which has its origin as far as I can tell in the Androgyne Essay which was revised earlier this year and switched from including bigender, to suddenly excluding.

Androgyne Online Essay Current Version [Which Excludes Bigender][Which only recently this year removed the prior version's inclusion of bigendered as a synonym or included, was revised.]

Quote
Androgyne (pronounced AN-dra-jine) is the term used to describe persons who are androgynous. Androgyny, first and foremost, is a state of mind, not just an attitude or fashion statement. The notion that only androgynous-looking people can be or are androgynous is a misconception. Androgynes can be said to have the gender identity of both a man and a woman -- or neither. Some identify with both traditional genders, while others see their identity as more of a synthesis and consider themselves to be agendered, as in "other" or "none of the above." Some androgynes go as far as to call themselves "gender outlaw" (a term popularized by Kate Bornstein).

Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are agendered, ambigendered, epicene, gender gifted, gender outlaw, intergendered (a term coined by intersex people), non-binary gender variant, nongendered, the third gender, and the fourth gender. Related but non-synonymous terms would be eunuch, bigendered (which applies mostly to crossdressers), gender bender, genderqueer, gender variant, hijra, neutrois, the third sex (which is usually a misnomer), transgenderist, and two-spirit.

Androgyne Online Essay Original Version [Which includes bigender as a synonym] Which has been posted for the last 6 years, prior to the revision]

QuoteAndrogyne (pronounced ANDRAjine) is the term used to describe persons who are androgynous. Androgyny, first and foremost, is a state of mind, not just an attitude or fashion statement. The notion that only androgynous-looking people can be or are androgynous is a misconception. Androgynes can be said to have the gender identity of both a man and a woman -- or neither. That is to say, some androgynes consider themselves to be bigendered in that they identify with both traditional genders, while others see their identity as more of a synthesis and consider themselves to be "other" -- hence, agendered.

Other names for androgyne (Greek for man/woman) are hijra, Two Spirit, the third sex, gender gifted, bigendered, intergendered, ambigendered, nongendered, and agendered.

You can read the evolution of the change in the page http://androgyne.0catch.com/old.htm

Is there any other source of dictionary that I am missing? Last year Stephe Feldman's definition included bigender, and this year sie changed it to exclude. After reading Stephe's own story of hir own confusion, opinion of hir own essay, disclaimer of it's absolute validity, and rocky experiences, even up to recent, such source isn't a good concrete source.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on September 29, 2007, 09:07:02 AM
Is there any other source of dictionary that I am missing?

The examples you dug up are, I think, enough to show that general dictionaries are not particularly useful here: their emphasis is on everyday speech, not specialised jargon, and frankly neither the general public nor the average lexicographer has reason to seriously question the traditional two-gender system.

Quote from: no_id on September 28, 2007, 06:38:01 AM
is Androgyne an Umbrella-term or truly a gender identification

Yes. ;)

That is, it is entirely reasonable to divide the gender landscape to two, three, four, five or even more regions. Androgyne is somewhere between male and female; in a three-way split, these are all, so the identities that are not at either of the absolute ends have to be considered as some variants of one of the three. Mostly they fall under androgyne, but in a trinary gender system it's also reasonable to consider some of us as shades of male or female. For instance, depending on just how one understands gender, I could see my own identity labelled as either androgyne or trinary female.

The point here is that the androgyne of a three-gender system is not just a superset of the bigender, ambigender and null-gender of a five-gender system. This is not a strict hierarchy: when adding genders, the borders of the old ones change as well. Still, it's a reasonably close approximation to use the trinary androgyne as an umbrella term for the genders that contrast with male] and female in any non-binary system. We might as well do that, but with the realisation that we want to include people who may not feel very close to the 'core' of androgyny.

Quote
what is the 'true' definition of Androgyne if placed under the Gender Variant umbrella?

Trying to express Emerald's definition in the terms I used above, androgyne can be seen as one of the genders in a four-way system, contrasting with male, female and bigender. I, personally, would restrict its use to the three-gender system and use the five-gender system outlined above when appropriate.

  Nfr

You folks knocked my socks off.  I don't suppose you can get them and bring them back to me, huh?   :)


   I agree with the idea that we can't rely on traditional dictionary definitions.  The people who wrote that stuff were using the same faulty references and information that has been passed down for years.
   It's up to us to take some of these words and to give them a true meaning.  A meaning that informs the uninformed, but also is true to our own experience.  I have no idea about how we can change the official use of terms, however, except by contacting dictionary people and asking them to look at what we have to offer in terms of definitions and explanations.

Quote from: Rebis on September 29, 2007, 02:49:55 PM
You folks knocked my socks off.  I don't suppose you can get them and bring them back to me, huh?   :)

Oh. Sorry, we got carried away a bit. I can't find your socks, though, so here's a new pair. One ankle-high cotton sock and one fishnet stocking. Is black all right? :D

Quote
I have no idea about how we can change the official use of terms, however, except by contacting dictionary people and asking them to look at what we have to offer in terms of definitions and explanations.

Won't work, really -- for the most part, dictionaries are written to reflect current usage, not influence it. The way to change things is basically to be loud enough. Just how we can do that on a scale larger than these forums is an interesting question. ;)

  Nfr

Stephe Fieldman's Conflict

QuoteI burned out sometime in 2004, frustrated that I was not able to convey my androgyne nature in everyday life without appearing gay instead of androgyne. On page 342 of the 2007 book, The Fenway Guide to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Health, I am the "client" referred to. See below:

  Depression can also arise in persons who do not necessarily qualify for the diagnosis of GID, but do experience a certain amount of gender dysphoria.  Such people may not identify as either male or female, and therefore do not gain outside validation of a gender identity different from the male/female binary.  For example, one client who was born biologically male and identified as androgyne sought to present her gender as androgynous, as this felt most genuine to her (the client is comfortable using both male and female pronouns).  However, she found that although she could convincingly present as either male or female, she was not able to find a way to appear androgynous.  Eventually she came to accept her gender identity as separate from her gender presentation.  However, the client continues to experience depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation due to the inability of others to recognize her as androgyne.  [. . .]

     The writer of the above incorrectly ascribed my depression, low self-esteem, and feelings of rejection and isolation specifically to being androgyne, while the truth is that is both because of my androgyneity and because of my Asperger's Syndrome, with perhaps more emphasis on the latter.

This is Tehenu's view, one early writer of one large Androgyne group

Tahenu's Conflict

QuoteI seem to have evoked quite deep philosophical ponderings with my
series of essays. That is good in itself as it helps us understand
what the world is like. However, philosophy often stays outside the
person pondering it. Meeting one's own self requires something in
addition to that.

What I did find was not a perfect philosophical structure into which
I would be a perfect fit. No - far from it! In fact, I have
formulated no comprehensive philosophy of androgyny. Even though
many of you say being a non-conformant, there is always a danger that
you still define yourself through androgyny. Non-conforming
androgyny, for sure, but androgyny all the same.

Instead of searching for your idea of androgyny and then trying to
model it in your life, how about searching for the real you. That
real self is partly made of androgyny, but it is not all there
is. Instead of thinking how a non-conforming androgyne would handle
a specific situation that I encounter, I try to learn to listen to my
Inner Being.

In order to meet people as individuals, it is important for me to be
an individual as well. Any philosophical construct - be it
cisgendered, transgendered or nongendered - is an impediment to
living as me. When I can break all those shells and live here and
now all the time, have I become myself. That is not something you
can ever become completely, but it is a goal to reach for.

I was able to connect to those women exactly because I stopped
emulating. Emulating a man, a woman, an androgyne, a scholar, a
philosoph, a shaman, a spiritual being, whatever. And stopping the
emulation is one of the hardest things you can do, because then you
are alone. Alone. Really Alone.

However, the good thing is that being alone in that sense is the most
important prerequisite for really connecting to others. You just
need to dare to jump over the dark pit of loneliness.

Tehanu

Tehanu's 2005 Confusion and Disconnect from others.

QuoteIn December 2005 I also resigned from the moderator and owner roles
of this group. After all, I felt having failed androgyny as well. I
needed to take a fresh look at myself, including androgyny, and in
order to do that, I needed to resign from the role that had so far
defined my essence very strongly.

QuoteMy key to success was to be myself. Last time I needed to connect so
badly that I was ready to do just anything. Which is what I
did. And failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.

I have to say KK, I am somewhat humoured by this last post of yours.

     For a long time I've gone around trying to define Androgyny, Androgyne; attempting to attach a signify to its assumed symbolism. Sometimes succesful, at times the oppposite, but it was a journey on its own that I enjoyed in all possible aspects.

    Those who have read my latest blog entry or viewed my profile recently, may have noticed that I no longer define as Androgyne since my search for those answers (and gaining them occasionally) only prospered detatchment from its concept.

Therefore, KK, your last post... is almost ironic...  8)

Quote from: no_id on September 29, 2007, 07:21:20 AM
Emerald.. Where's the "In my opinion" part?...  ;)

no_id-
My intent is to share accumulated knowledge. Knowledge is infinitely more valuable than my personal opinion. (Personal experience does have a measure of merit though.)  ;)

Rebis-
Yes, my ancient Philosopher's Stone', O Double-thing, Pandora's box of gender has been opened and it won't be shut again. There are strange and beautiful things inside. You shall see! We endeavor to do what has not done before, to discover what 'is' and not just what we desire to be... Find the true nature of gender, Androgynes, and gender identity - to pass these words beyond this speck on the www and enhance the dictionary.

Ken/Kendra-
In the past, 'Androgyne' was used as a synonym for 'hermaphrodite', but both terms fell out of favor and were replaced by the word 'Intersex'. However, you will continue to find this older definition in every dictionary.

Concerning your last post:  'Androgyny' can be physical, socio-political, or psychological. Take care to not confuse an hermaphroditic body with an androgynous mind, nor a philosophy of androgyny with an intrinsic gender identity. This isn't about hermaphrodites, social androgyny, or androgynous lifestyles. Our concerns and the subject of this thread lay solely with the gender identity within the mind. Intrinsic gender, not extrinsic.

Perhaps you missed this website while seeking online reference sources for Androgyne Gender Identity, K/K?
http://www.androgyny.org.uk/ (http://www.androgyny.org.uk/)

Quote"Welcome to Androgyny Scotland. For those who wish to know more about Androgyny I hope this site will be of interest. What is Androgyny? Many people will be familiar with the androgynous fashions and celebrities of the 70's and 80's. Though this is often the route people have taken in the past in discovering their androgyny, this is not what this site's about. It's also not just about those people who look androgynous, although they are certainly included in what I'm talking about here.

This site is about Androgyny as a gender identity, and hence is about Androgynes. Whilst the English language is inaccurate when talking about gender identities other than man or woman, it is possible to clumsily and incorrectly describe an androgyne as someone whose gender identity is a combination of or absence of masculine and feminine, that is, they are an amalgamation of the two. I say this is a clumsy and incorrect explanation for the same reason that describing the colour yellow as a combination of black and white is clumsy and incorrect. Androgyny cannot be truly described by invoking Man and Woman. Androgyny is a distinct gender identity and should never be confused as a mixture or combination of anything else."

Also, Wikipedia has an entry for "Bigender":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender)

Quote
Bigender (bi+gender) is a tendency to move between masculine and feminine gender-typed behaviour depending on context, expressing a distinctly "en femme" persona and a distinctly "en homme" persona, feminine and masculine respectively. It is a subset of transgender.

While an androgynous person retains the same gender-typed behaviour across situations, the bigendered person consciously or unconsciously changes their gender-role behaviour from primarily masculine to primarily feminine, or vice versa. It is worth noting that this concept emerged from within the transgender community itself, rather than being adopted after it was created by another sub-culture (for example, transsexual was defined first by the mental health community).

Expression
Some express their bigender identity through crossdressing or performing as a drag king/drag queen; others may adopt a strictly masculine, feminine, or androgynous appearance and experience the shift between genders on a purely mental, or only subtly physical, level.

I hope this is helpful!  :icon_biggrin:

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on September 30, 2007, 12:35:02 PM
Going through the posts about Stephe Feldman [The person that wrote Androgyne Online Essay and owner of Androgyne Online and several other sites/boards/etc...], I suppose I should quote the things I referred to. These are hir words.

This is just to show you a little info from the source of most androgyne definitions.

Stephe Feldman is a 48 year old,  Cashier from Boston Massachusetts.

Concerning the Androgyne Essay

QuoteMy key to success was to be myself. Last time I needed to connect so
badly that I was ready to do just anything. Which is what I
did. And failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.

I've come to a similar conclusion.  Must be the air here by the cape. (I mean Batman's cape. I don't want anyone to think I'm a snotty cape codder).  :)

all my recent energies just to discover that I am myself.  my own brand of androgyne.  Imagine how much searching we each would have to do to truly find just one other person like ourselves?  It's like having your own T in the souper group GLBTtTtTTTttTTTtttTttttttttttTttttttttttT and so on and so on until a T appears that represents you.

QuoteMy intent is to share accumulated knowledge. Knowledge is infinitely more valuable than my personal opinion. (Personal experience does have a measure of merit though.)

Personal knowledge that is of your own opinion.. that is derived from the opinions of others... None of it is fact.

Quote from: Emerald on September 30, 2007, 03:56:55 PM
Concerning your last post:  'Androgyny' can be physical, socio-political, or psychological.
Perhaps you missed this website while seeking online reference sources for Androgyne Gender Identity, K/K?

The last post was Stephe Feldman's quotes, the website owner of Androgyne Online and writer of that info. I think Stephe posted the Wikipedia, or someone from circle of friends. I dont know who wrote the scottland info on the link you posted, since they dont state their name looking over the site.

The definition reply was in regards to whoever mentioned that the definitions came from a common dictionary, which was maybe you who mentioned this. I was just showing the common english language definitions found in the regular dictionaries.

Quote from: Emerald on September 30, 2007, 03:56:55 PM
Take care to not confuse an hermaphroditic body with an androgynous mind, nor a philosophy of androgyny with an intrinsic gender identity.

I dont recall anyone saying anything about hermaphroditic bodies are androgynous minds. There are male bodied, female bodied, and a few transitioning bodied members at this site. Dont know of any hermaphoroditic bodied androgynes. My body that I have now, feels comfortable to me, though I wish I had longer legs, lol.

Quote from: Emerald on September 30, 2007, 03:56:55 PMThis isn't about hermaphrodites, social androgyny, or androgynous lifestyles. Our concerns and the subject of this thread lay solely with the gender identity within the mind. Intrinsic gender, not extrinsic.

[whistles...]

Quote from: Emerald on September 30, 2007, 03:56:55 PM
Androgynes are known as the silent majority of the Transgender world.

I laugh every time I read that quote, then see androgynes that immediately trying to exclude as many people as they can from the group. Not just on this site, but on various message boards. Its sorta like the your not ->-bleeped-<- enough version. How many transgendered person's are androgyne? Silent majority is how many? Shouldn't it read "silent minority"?

And apparently must limit their conversations also.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on September 30, 2007, 12:35:02 PM

QuoteAnd failed. Which made me think I am not an
androgyne. However, in retrospect I see it only proved that I am not
any of them. I am me, instead.

Wow, that'll teach me to go away for a weekend without internet access.  :o

Even though I've been hanging around the androgyne part of this site for a year or so, and feel comfortable here, I also sometimes don't feel like I really "fit" as an androgyne either. It's yet another label. I'm really just me.

Zythyra