Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Absolutely Disgusting Transphobic Article from CWA


Naed Irega Live Journal (http://naedlrega.livejournal.com/3993.html)
9/14/2007


'This incredibly insulting, hateful, wildly ill-informed article appeared today on the Concerned Women for America website. It is anti-LGBT in general but focuses the majority of its venom on trans people-- specifically, on trans women. The language is very inflammatory. The avowed purpose of the piece is to motivate conservatives to lobby their congresspeople to oppose ENDA. The real purpose seems to be to incite hatred towards trans women by misrepresenting them and playing on ignorant people's fears'.

Yeah, well, I've been warning people in this community for years that they were going to come after you all soon. Now you will see what it is like to have to live with the bullseye on your back for once. I'm not talking about the passive discrimination you have to deal with daily. I'm talking about well-financed organizations that exist strictly to harrass you and deny you any solace. They are coming after you and they are going to make you a major point of contention in the election year upcoming. Don't expect too much support from the Dems either. You'll be lucky to get ENDA passed.

Quote from: Thundra on September 15, 2007, 11:11:53 PM
Now you will see what it is like to have to live with the bullseye on your back for once. I'm not talking about the passive discrimination you have to deal with daily. I'm talking about well-financed organizations that exist strictly to harrass you and deny you any solace. They are coming after you and they are going to make you a major point of contention in the election year upcoming. Don't expect too much support from the Dems either. You'll be lucky to get ENDA passed.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be enjoying this, Thundra.  Your comments seem full of resentment & anger, which is all right if it is directed to the opposers of ENDA, not us. ???

Miss Fly,

QuoteForgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be enjoying this, Thundra.  Your comments seem full of resentment & anger, which is all right if it is directed to the opposers of ENDA, not us.

You are completely mistaken. I am NOT enjoying this at all. I hate it when I'm right. But, if you people thought you had it tough before, you are about to see it go up another notch. Everything is relative. I hear people that transition cry about how tough it is for them. Granted, it is tough. But now you will get to walk a mile in the queer communities shoes. They have been targeting us for abuse for decades. With the inclusion of gender identity in ENDA protections, it was bound to happen.

There is reason to be concerned - I amazed how the writer confuses CD's with transwomen, especially an attorney who should know the difference - but I wouldn't be too concerned. I noticed they opposed the rule in Washington (state) requiring pharmicists to fill Plan-B prescriptions if they feel it violates their personal views. Right now they can refuse only if another pharmacists is on duty in the same pharmacy to fill the order.

This group is not concerned about women, but by their own admission, wanting to exert biblical views in public policy. Curious they support freedom of religion, but I wonder how far that goes when someone else's religion conflicts with their Christian views. Mostly they're simply against human rights and liberties. They're against "judicial activism" except when it promotes religious rights and views - strange how that's not judicial activitism.

It's ironic their own national attorney, shown here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/08/AR2006010801256.html), has been there done that (violated every one of their principles) and became an evangelical Christian to support her new views. I'm sorry, someone with her experience doesn't have the right to disapprove of others doing the same thing simply because she's changed.

--Susan--

Yoy!  Now she is a piece of work, that LaRue.

First of all, married to the author LaRue that writes the books about the end of the world from their conservative christian POV. They all get saved, we all get killed and rot in hell. They are right, we are wrong.

Then, after all of that abuse she reveals in the article, she makes the statement that she did not need therapy, because the day she became a christian, all of those "feelings" went away.
OK, yeah sure, if you say so lady.

And she regrets having an abortion, so no one else should have that option either.

QuoteThis group is not concerned about women, but by their own admission, wanting to exert biblical views in public policy. Curious they support freedom of religion, but I wonder how far that goes when someone else's religion conflicts with their Christian views.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I can tell you that women to them means born with a uterus, and man means born with a penis. And to them, if you transition, you are still how you were born, regardless of what you do to change your appearance. You are still shamefull in their eyes. If these people had their way, they would compile a list of people that transition, the same way they make lists of people that abuse children. To them, you are the same - sick and twisted. It is their way, or the highway for your kind.

Still, it raises an interesting point: does ENDA protect someone who doesn't identify as female, yet who wants to come to work wearing sexy women's clothes simply for the turn-on factor? There ARE people who are happy looking and being male, yet who find wearing a skirt or whatever highly erotic... and find that doing so in public only heightens the thrill. Which is fine and all, but in a workplace?

~Kate~

Careful Kate, careful....

Don't go there. We have plenty of people on this list ready and willing to provide us with that service. Capiche?

I personally would love to live in a world where anybody can wear anything they want, whenever they want. Or appear femme one day, butch the next day, and androgynous the day after that. By anything they want, I don't mean nekid, OK?

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if cross-dressers came to work en femme, or drag queens showed up in drag? Who gives a flying %&*$? As long as they can do the work, what does it matter to me? If all businesses were not allowed to force workers to dress "appropriately," than businesses could not play one against another to argue for dress decorum.

In other words, presently, one business can claim that they will lose business to the people down the street if they their employee to dress in woman's clothes or vice versa, whereas the guy down the block doesn't have that policy. If all businesses were not allowed to discriminate against employees not dressing according to current gender norms, than the guy down the street would have to follow the same rules. That is what they are really afraid of. The fact that if these rules become law, than they cannot pick over a qualified candidate, or simply dismiss an employee based on how they present according to their interpretation of gender norms.

If there were no norms, there would be no problems.

Hundreds of children are hurt by poor housing, malnutrition and absent parents because there are those who will not suffer even a few so-called Welfare Queens to slip through and take advantage of the system and who also say when around like-minded company, "Starvation is a GREAT motivator."

There are those who will take advantage of the system for the ends you state, Kate. (alliteration unintended  :D )   But, there have been those who take advantage of the system for such purposes for years.

Where do we set the bounds?

BTW, I, too, have had trouble with that article.  It does point up an increase in the furor of the fundamentalist right to do battle against godless deviant abominations.  And to them, all's fair in this war.

Karen

Quote from: Thundra on September 16, 2007, 11:50:35 PM
I personally would love to live in a world where anybody can wear anything they want, whenever they want. Or appear femme one day, butch the next day, and androgynous the day after that. By anything they want, I don't mean nekid, OK?

I don't mind anyone wearing anything they want, be they cross-dressers, drag queens, or whatever. Gender or simple clothing preference expression is fine.

But I'll admit I DO get uncomfy if someone is wearing something *solely* to get off on it all day, doing it purely for erotic exhibitionism... basically a virtual way to masturbate in public. Imagine someone coming to work every day in a nice shiny PVC bondage outfit, hood, gag and all? An extreme example, but it's the same motivation I'm talking about.

~Kate~

It seems to me that in the end they will not only discredit conservatism further but religion as well. I think that meddling in politics and going up against non-discrimination is ultimately going to hurt the religious right.

Quote from: Thundra on September 16, 2007, 07:34:41 AM
Miss Fly,

QuoteForgive me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to be enjoying this, Thundra.  Your comments seem full of resentment & anger, which is all right if it is directed to the opposers of ENDA, not us.

You are completely mistaken. I am NOT enjoying this at all. I hate it when I'm right. But, if you people thought you had it tough before, you are about to see it go up another notch.
Everything is relative. I hear people that transition cry about how tough it is for them. Granted, it is tough. But now you will get to walk a mile in the queer communities shoes. They have been targeting us for abuse for decades. With the inclusion of gender identity in ENDA protections, it was bound to happen.

Thundra, I'm really quite astonished that you would think that the TG community hasn't already been "walking a mile" in the "queer community's shoes." The reality is that to the ignorant right, transpeople and crossdressers have long been viewed as "perverted" people who just "want to change their sex." Those of us who are gay need to understand that we ARE all in the same community. Your posts imply that the "T" is just a recent afterthought in GLBT. It's not so.

When will we realize that we ARE in the same boat together and we need to work together to bring out real change? Posts like those from Thundra in this thread clearly show that we have a long way to go. That's tragic.

There is no "us and them" versus "them." When the GLBT community (and allies) realize that we're all a part of the human community, maybe we'll be able to lead by example.

Quote from: Kate on September 16, 2007, 06:54:02 PM
Still, it raises an interesting point: does ENDA protect someone who doesn't identify as female, yet who wants to come to work wearing sexy women's clothes simply for the turn-on factor? There ARE people who are happy looking and being male, yet who find wearing a skirt or whatever highly erotic... and find that doing so in public only heightens the thrill. Which is fine and all, but in a workplace?

Kate,

I would hope that ENDA will protect any and all gender expressions. Where is the line drawn about what is or isn't appropriate, and who is drawing that line? Even if ENDA passes, an employer who wishes to get rid of a trans employee can come up with some lame excuse about their job performance if they want to fire them.

As someone who identifies as neither gender, without the protections that ENDA offers, I'm currently only able to present as my legal birth gender, if I want to make a living that is, and that really hurts sometimes.

zythyra

    My church and a lot of other churches support GLBT people.  Nobody can claim that their Christianity religion prohibits the expression or existence of any person or groups because there is always a congregation up the way that will dispute those claims.
    My Minister wants me to put the GLBT flag as a banner on our website.  I think that is putting our money where our mouth is.  We also have straight members who public support GLBT issues.

   It would be nice if these articles would balance their reports by explaining that not everyone is like whoever the article is about.  I guess we need more press.


By the way, I've been trying to figure out where to get the official banner for GLBT people.  I assume it's a live banner that changes and links to GLBT headquarters, where that is.  I'm not trying to be an idiot, I just haven't found it.  Maybe I should quit writing this post and actually get to it.

Well unfortunately they get FREE press every time a GLBT related story comes up; the news media tries to balance GLBT articles with a counter-point. Guess who it usually comes from?

So, I agree there are good organizations out there but they aren't the ones that are heard.

Quote from: Rebis on September 17, 2007, 08:20:26 PM
   It would be nice if these articles would balance their reports by explaining that not everyone is like whoever the article is about.  I guess we need more press.

I have been active in trying to get my County Commissioners to add "gender identity and expression" as well as "sexual oreintation" to the HRO. I am working with a group of gays, lesbians, and straight people. the movement was started by 2 churches. This nasty article is exactly what we (the trans people working on it) feared that the opposition would say. Many times across the country the trans people have been "thrown under the bus", used as a trump card by the gay/lesbian community for a bargaining chip, i.e.: "If you strike gender identity from this, we will likely pass it". This time, there are 4 trans women working on it, and the others swear that they aren't going to accept a compromise excluding us this time. We are sort of in limbo right now, unsure which way to go, because the Commission is involved in an unrelated scandal, and likely "don't have time for us". We shall see.

Quote from: Kate on September 17, 2007, 08:30:56 AM

Quote from: Thundra on September 16, 2007, 11:50:35 PM
I personally would love to live in a world where anybody can wear anything they want, whenever they want. Or appear femme one day, butch the next day, and androgynous the day after that. By anything they want, I don't mean nekid, OK?

I don't mind anyone wearing anything they want, be they cross-dressers, drag queens, or whatever. Gender or simple clothing preference expression is fine.

But I'll admit I DO get uncomfy if someone is wearing something *solely* to get off on it all day, doing it purely for erotic exhibitionism... basically a virtual way to masturbate in public. Imagine someone coming to work every day in a nice shiny PVC bondage outfit, hood, gag and all? An extreme example, but it's the same motivation I'm talking about.

~Kate~

i concord with kate on this one.  one thing is to wear the clothes of your target gender and another thing is to wear silky panties or a mini skirt because they turn you on or whatever.  yea, people can wear whatever they want, not in the workplace though.  i support enda, yet i don't support the idea of people coming to work with clothing that is inappropriate for the workplace.  capiche?

Quote from: Katia on September 23, 2007, 04:00:50 AM

Quote from: Kate on September 17, 2007, 08:30:56 AM

Quote from: Thundra on September 16, 2007, 11:50:35 PM
I personally would love to live in a world where anybody can wear anything they want, whenever they want. Or appear femme one day, butch the next day, and androgynous the day after that. By anything they want, I don't mean nekid, OK?

I don't mind anyone wearing anything they want, be they cross-dressers, drag queens, or whatever. Gender or simple clothing preference expression is fine.

But I'll admit I DO get uncomfy if someone is wearing something *solely* to get off on it all day, doing it purely for erotic exhibitionism... basically a virtual way to masturbate in public. Imagine someone coming to work every day in a nice shiny PVC bondage outfit, hood, gag and all? An extreme example, but it's the same motivation I'm talking about.

~Kate~

i concord with kate on this one.  one thing is to wear the clothes of your target gender and another thing is to wear silky panties or a mini skirt because they turn you on or whatever.  yea, people can wear whatever they want, not in the workplace though.  i support enda, yet i don't support the idea of people coming to work with clothing that is inappropriate for the workplace.  capiche?

Ironically, I find much of the clothing worn by professional women to be objectionable.  It's like, I'm working, I don't want to see your knees or your breasts.  But it's okay for them.  So, if a guy wants to show off his knees or chest hair, I just don't care anymore.

People can wear potato sacks for all I care.  (as long as they show their knees, breasts, or chest hair)

If people could wear what they want, then there'd be no thrill for the thrill seekers.  You probably wouldn't see a lot of that anymore.

QuoteThundra, I'm really quite astonished that you would think that the TG community hasn't already been "walking a mile" in the "queer community's shoes." The reality is that to the ignorant right, transpeople and crossdressers have long been viewed as "perverted" people who just "want to change their sex." Those of us who are gay need to understand that we ARE all in the same community. Your posts imply that the "T" is just a recent afterthought in GLBT. It's not so.

DWS, I respectfully disagree with you on one point of your POV. While it is true that trans-folk have a long history of being involved in the queer community, that statement is not true of all trans-folk. As is oft rubbed in my face here, those that purport "to pass" claim to not suffer from the same level of distress as many others in the community. And so, in fact, many DO NOT SUPPORT queer folks or our agenda of change. They do not owe anyone anything. They have nothing in common with queers, or the queer agenda. Because they are str8 men and women, for whom the rules against queers do not apply. Simply put, it is not their fight.

Rather, their agenda is one where they find a way to change the current laws and policies so that they can legally slip under the radar as it were. It is their right to do so, but that POV does nothing to help many others that come from the same background that either do not wish to slip under the radar in stealth mode, or that cannot "pass" in their estimation.

If you read the postings here, they draw a very strong line in the sand, as to the distinctions between themselves and those other people. They believe that transgendered people, transsexual people, and people that have completed transition ARE NOT the same, and so their issues are not the same. Why don't you ask THEM when we are all going to get along and fight for a single agenda? There are plenty of them here.

There are two distinct strategies being deployed to battle for the rights of the gender-variant. The mainstream queer formula is to gradually remove the barriers between what is considered "normal" and aberrant, so that without distinctions, all people live their life as they see fit without suffering from discriminatory practices now enshrined in public policy. The second strategy is used by many from the same background, whose aim is strictly to find a way that they themself, and they alone can live that same type of life by finding a way to tweak and circumvent the current rules. And if they can do so without having a to lift a finger themselves, mores the better.

Most queers are moving to the POV that we need a new paradigm for everyone to achieve equality. Whereas, many people here have reminded me that they don't need a new paradigm, they get along just fine the way things are because they "pass," and they don't owe anyone anything. Which, let me state again, is their right. Str8 people are already protected under the current laws, so this battle does not concern them. They can already marry the partner of their choice, as long as no one outs them for instance.

My posting was referring to the fact that as the conservative right becomes more desperate to seek out wedge issues to facilitate finding fears to motivate amerikans to vote against Dems, one of the things they will go after is gender-variant people. And in their POV, there is no difference between someone that "passes," and someone that does not. In fact, to them, those that "pass" are more dangerous and insidious to their belief system.

If the right decides trans-folk are worth going after as a wedge issue, and I think they will, these people with their "heterosexist POV" might be surprised to find out that the nice quiet life of stealth they have been enjoying might come to a sudden grinding halt. DWS, you know as well as I do that even if the conservatives are defeated in this election this is so not over ~ by any means. There will be a backlash. And it will be ugly. The difference is that this time trans-folk will not be considered fringe players, especially if ENDA passes. They will be a target just like queer folks.

And one last thing. Why don't you ask trans-folk whether they want a "T" in GLBT, because from what I've been hearing, most do not. They are not queer. They are just ordinary men and women, and our fight is not their fight.

Posted on: September 23, 2007, 01:16:41 PM

---

QuoteIf people could wear what they want, then there'd be no thrill for the thrill seekers.  You probably wouldn't see a lot of that anymore.

Exactly. If there is no "normal," and no weird, than what exactly is the issue? It's just people making choices for themselves. All the barriers are artificially derived anyway. What is most perturbing to me personally, is when the very people that expected other people to allow them to transition without having barriers placed in their way, then turn around and obfuscate other people on the same path, and even denigrate them in many cases if they are a little different than themselves. It is not very mature or supportive, or attractive.

Quote from: ThundraAnd in their POV, there is no difference between someone that "passes," and someone that does not. In fact, to them, those that "pass" are more dangerous and insidious to their belief system.

Exactly.

That's why I went to the Real ID town hall.  Because I was afraid that if the fundies hijacked the system, our IDs would reflect our birth sex, and it would be tantamount to wearing one of these on all my clothes:



Now, I don't out myself every time I go and buy a pack of gum.  It appears that I pass well -- no eyebrows shooting up or giggles once my back is turned, etc.  But I'm not going to fool myself into thinking I pass 100% in all situations.  However, most people are dull that way, and I pass just fine.

There are other situations where I'm more likely to be read.  Last night I went to an event with two other trans-women.  One was rather unpassable, and I'm sure that she got the other two of us read.  It did not diminish my enjoyment of the evening and the film and the company I was with one whit.  And now when I go out to the store in about an hour, I'm sure that I'll pass just fine in that situation.

But what if the fundies get us ALL marked, somehow?  What if I have to show my ID to buy a pack of gum, and the ID says, in big, fat letters, "MALE"?

Even if you pass perfectly, you'll be outed every time you buy something, or go through a security checkpoint, or try to take care of something legal...  And then you'll be depending on those strangers to be kind to you even though they KNOW your birth-sex now...

I believe we need the hate crimes bill and ENDA passed.  And I feel that in order to convince those who would be on our side the extent and magnitude of the issue, we need a good census of transgendered persons.  Not names and addresses, but hard, verifiable numbers.  Most people are startled by the statistic that 1 in 2500 males between the ages of 18 and 65 have HAD GRS.

But we're almost invisible, and thus unworthy of much attention, except that attention of the fundies who perceive us to be a vanishingly-small, weak group that they can make sport of.   Besides, messing with the unpassable will just keep the passables in line, fearful of receiving the same treatment if ever they are outed...

Of course, the fight for equality of trans rights is only a piece of the fight for equality of rights for the LGBT community.  And that is only a piece of the fight for equality for all -- witness the recent events in Jena, Louisiana.  We're a small piece.  Perhaps we should also consider working on the larger issues as well~

Karen

Quote from: Rebis on September 23, 2007, 12:25:28 PM
People can wear potato sacks for all I care.  (as long as they show their knees, breasts, or chest hair)

If people could wear what they want, then there'd be no thrill for the thrill seekers.  You probably wouldn't see a lot of that anymore.

I meant to say "as long as they don't show their knees, breasts, or chest hair"

Posted on: September 23, 2007, 03:19:21 PM

---

     I agree with Thundra's response to D (though I believe he should sue his parents for possession of the remaining letters of his name) and I agree with Karen's response to Thundra.

     I've begun to dwell deliberately in a more focussed section of this sight because I've been turned off by remarks that I believe are non-inclusive towards anyone who differs from a certain paradigm. I believe in unity. Some people believe in themselves. I believe that if one of us is not doing well then none of us are doing well. Some others believe that if they are doing well then it doesn't matter how others fare.
     I understand that everyone is different and has different beliefs and world views, however, if an individual is not interested in taking social action, they should not demean those who do take action and who desire to achieve certain goals.

Well, I believe that if ENDA is passed, the guidelines would be similar to those found in states like California.  I have no issues whatsoever as long as everyone shows respect and their attire remains professionally appropriate to the office in which we work or the job we hold.
Just to give you an idea of what California law says about this, here is a quote from a previous thread:

Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 09:37:22 PM

Quote from: State of California AB 196 lawDefinitions: Gender Identity applies only to those individuals who, with the
documented support of medical or psychological professionals
and in accordance with the recognized Informed Consent Model of
Care or the Harry S. Benjamin Standards of Care, are changing or
have changed their physical characteristics to facilitate personal
and public redefinition of their sex as opposite that which they
were assigned at birth.

Sexual orientation means having or being perceived as having
an emotional, physical or sexual attachment to another person
without regard to the sex of that person, or having or being
perceived as having an orientation for such an attachment, or
being perceived as having a self-image or identity not traditionally
associated with one's biological maleness or femaleness.

Transitioning
Employees: The process for transitioning employees is extensive. It is
accomplished with the help of medical professionals in
accordance with recognized standards of care. In general, the
process will involve psychological testing, monitoring, and
counseling, hormone therapy and a trial living period of at least
one-year to ascertain the level of comfort in the reassigned
gender. It is usually at this stage that the employer is given notice
of the employee's diagnosis and intentions.


Restroom Access
Issues: Restroom access issues need to be handled with sensitivity not
only to our obligation to provide transitioning employees with the
same level of restroom access available to non-transgendered
employees, but also to the emotional responses to co-workers to
the idea of sharing facilities with a transgendered co-worker. Our
restroom access policy is clear. An employee should use the
facility based on his/her current gender. However, once transition
is complete, a transgendered employee has the right to the same
access as a non-transgendered employee of the same gender.

Appearance
Standards: Employees who are transitioning are required, prior to surgery, to
assume the role for their reassigned gender. This process is
known as the Real Life Experience. Although professionals may
recommend living in the desired gender as a step to surgery, the
decision as to when and how to begin the real-life experience
remains the employee's responsibility. Part of that experience is
dressing in the reassigned gender role.
A transitioning employee's attire should remain professionally
appropriate to the office in which they work and the job they hold.
The same dress codes and rules for behavior apply to
transgendered as to other employees. If, as a manager, you are
concerned about the appearance your transgendered employee
will present when she or he starts coming to work in the other
gender role, ask for a picture of her or him in professional attire. If
you still have concerns, these should be addressed with your
employee. If she or he dresses or behaves inappropriately, this
issue should be dealt with the same way it would with any other
employee.


*Employees may use any restroom that corresponds with their full-time gender presentation. Management requires only that, after notifying HR of a decision to transition, a transitioning employee present according to his or her gender identity consistently thereafter.
*A transitioning employee may agree to use a unisex restroom, if one is available and reasonably accessible, for some period during the process of transition.
Employees may use a restroom that corresponds with their biological sex; employees who have completed sex reassignment surgery may use restrooms that correspond with the biological sex to which they transitioned.
*Employers should also note that new Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act regulations reinforce the confidentiality of employee medical information. As a result, unless an employee tells management directly, management may not know whether or when an employee has had sex-reassignment surgery, and therefore may have difficulty implementing a policy based on this standard.

Quote extracted from this link.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 01:33:56 PM
And so, in fact, many DO NOT SUPPORT queer folks or our agenda of change. They do not owe anyone anything. They have nothing in common with queers, or the queer agenda. Because they are str8 men and women, for whom the rules against queers do not apply. Simply put, it is not their fight.

It's not. Not really.

See, thing is, all the "variant" people, such as gender queers, gays, lesbians, crossdressers, drag queens, androgynes, gender-benders, she-males... are all fighting for the right to be DIFFERENT.

But me... I'm fighting for the right to be NORMAL, to assimilate. I've always felt a bit hypocritical to be telling everyone, "really, I'm just an ordinary woman!" followed by "but I want to have laws passed to protect me as a special type of woman!"

I mean heck, it IS ironic, but I'm trying to join the same group that the variant people are seeking tolerance from. But because of that, I don't want to be part of this GLBT thing. I'm not part of a "community." In fact, whenever talking to people, I NEVER refer to "my community" or even "other transsexuals." I just say "other people who have done what I've done." The idea of "pride days" and "out and proud" doesn't mean anything to me.

And I'm not trying to be conceited or arrogant about it, it's just that there's that fundamental difference between my goals and needs and that of the GLBT "community." While they all want protection as a special class of people, I want the right to NOT be a special class of people. But every time I raise my hand to fight "for my rights as a transsexual," I suddenly feel that much less of a normal woman, ya know?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on September 23, 2007, 04:54:07 PM

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 01:33:56 PM
And so, in fact, many DO NOT SUPPORT queer folks or our agenda of change. They do not owe anyone anything. They have nothing in common with queers, or the queer agenda. Because they are str8 men and women, for whom the rules against queers do not apply. Simply put, it is not their fight.

It's not. Not really.

See, thing is, all the "variant" people, such as gender queers, gays, lesbians, crossdressers, drag queens, androgynes, gender-benders, she-males... are all fighting for the right to be DIFFERENT.

But me... I'm fighting for the right to be NORMAL, to assimilate. I've always felt a bit hypocritical to be telling everyone, "really, I'm just an ordinary woman!" followed by "but I want to have laws passed to protect me as a special type of woman!"

I mean heck, it IS ironic, but I'm trying to join the same group that the variant people are seeking tolerance from. But because of that, I don't want to be part of this GLBT thing. I'm not part of a "community." In fact, whenever talking to people, I NEVER refer to "my community" or even "other transsexuals." I just say "other people who have done what I've done." The idea of "pride days" and "out and proud" doesn't mean anything to me.

And I'm not trying to be conceited or arrogant about it, it's just that there's that fundamental difference between my goals and needs and that of the GLBT "community." While they all want protection as a special class of people, I want the right to NOT be a special class of people. But every time I raise my hand to fight "for my rights as a transsexual," I suddenly feel that much less of a normal woman, ya know?

~Kate~

Seconded!

tink :icon_chick:

Understood ladies.

Then, why exactly should the GLB community be doing anything to aid your position?

Kate, you hit the nail on the head when you drew the distinction between queers and transitioning folks.

Queers are fighting for independence, and expanding rights.

Transitioning folks are fighting for the right to assimilate into the heterosexist culture that dominates everything. Truth be told, none of you would be here if you had not been forced to seek out like-minded people, because transitioning is NOT your identity, it is a phase.

In no small way, that actually makes you all my enemy instead of my ally. Any person that works to keep the status quo is working against me. Yet, I am called upon to be supportive and understanding. It's wonderfully ironic.

Tink spells that out very clearly when she quotes the rules, which apply to allowing transitioning folks to dress and behave as they like, as long it falls within the assimilationist goals. But it prevents anyone from doing anything that falls outside of those gender norms for men and women. So anyone not like her and Kate, i.e. transitioning, is screwed, and they are OK with that fact.

So, should transitioning folk be removed from the GLBT umbrella? I would state emphatically yes, if T stands for anything other than trans-identified folks. GLBT should not include trasitioning folks that intend to assimilate, or transsexuals that plan to do the same. Otherwise, we queers are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Posted on: September 23, 2007, 08:38:41 PM

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QuoteI've begun to dwell deliberately in a more focussed section of this sight because I've been turned off by remarks that I believe are non-inclusive towards anyone who differs from a certain paradigm. I believe in unity. Some people believe in themselves. I believe that if one of us is not doing well then none of us are doing well. Some others believe that if they are doing well then it doesn't matter how others fare.

They don't want unity m'friend, they want the status quo. The only difference between them and the gender police is that the police want no one to transition, while they want to control who transitions, the extent of said transition, and the exact parameters of that transition.
They are the champions of conformity and assimilation.

But when I point that obvious difference out, I am labelled as being divisive. I don't think so.
Let me state for the record, as clearly as possible, that anyone ought to be able to dress as they like as they feel like it ~ as long as they are not getting nekid in public. I agree that women ought not be flashing their breasts or their camel toe, in public. I don't want to see a guy's chest or his stuff in public either.

I find it especially ironic that it is OK for people to be out in public flashing flesh and leaving absolutely nothing to the imagination, but when two consenting adults decide to get busy in the privacy of a toilet stall, that is wrong? That is very twisted to me. I don't care what people do as long as it does not affect me. People smoking in my presence is more afflicting to me than two people having sex in a bathroom that I cannot see. [sorry DE] I could care less.

Quote from: Kate on September 23, 2007, 04:54:07 PM

It's not. Not really.

See, thing is, all the "variant" people, such as gender queers, gays, lesbians, crossdressers, drag queens, androgynes, gender-benders, she-males... are all fighting for the right to be DIFFERENT.

But me... I'm fighting for the right to be NORMAL, to assimilate. I've always felt a bit hypocritical to be telling everyone, "really, I'm just an ordinary woman!" followed by "but I want to have laws passed to protect me as a special type of woman!"

I do not like this. Gays and Lesbians fighting to be different. Not really. They are fighting to be recognised as human beings - not someone who people are ashamed of.

CDs, Drag Queens - Are they figting at all. They just want to be left alone to get on with their lives and to be treated normaly. When I CD is in female mode they expect to be treat like any other female - they want to feel normal.

I can not speak for gender-benders and she-males. The androgynes can speak for themselves.

But everyone in general wants to be treated as normal people - not people who everyone else loosk down on.


Alice

When in Rome, do what Romans do.  Unfortunately strict laws have to be enforced because there will be always be peeps that abuse the system.  There will always be someone that wants to go to work naked or have sex in an employer toilet and demand that other peeps have to be alright with it.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  A law is supposed to put an end to a "problem" not produce more problems.

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 09:08:35 PM
So anyone not like her and Kate, i.e. transitioning, is screwed, and they are OK with that fact.

Nah, not even close. Come on, you know me better than that by now. I believe in freedom and fairness. No one has a right to impose their worldview upon everyone else. But for TSs, there has to be a better way than creating laws to protect "us" as a special group when most of us are doing everything in our power to NOT be thought of as a special group.

It just seems like we're constantly addressing endless symptoms, and never the root causes. Why can't we just make a law saying, "No one has a right to justify business or legal decisions using religious bigotry?" Tada! What a great world that would create, ya know? Now you don't have to run around putting out the endless fires of where bigotry pops up.

QuoteI would state emphatically yes, if T stands for anything other than trans-identified folks. GLBT should not include trasitioning folks that intend to assimilate, or transsexuals that plan to do the same. Otherwise, we queers are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Well no, I mean it's not like ALL non-TS people are trying to "maintain the status quo." I'm not your enemy just because I personally want to assimilate. I'm still quite capable and willing to fight for fairness and equality for variant people, just not AS a variant person.

~Kate~

Quote from: Jeannette on September 23, 2007, 11:21:43 PM
When in Rome, do what Romans do.  Unfortunately strict laws have to be enforced because there will be always be peeps that abuse the system.  There will always be someone that wants to go to work naked or have sex in an employer toilet and demand that other peeps have to be alright with it.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  A law is supposed to put an end to a "problem" not produce more problems.

Well the standard laws create problems like depression for me. I hate being put in a box.

Alice

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 09:08:35 PM
Transitioning folks are fighting for the right to assimilate into the heterosexist culture that dominates everything.

While there's some truth in what you say, this is something of an oversimplification. Yes, in general the personal goal of a transsexual is to assimilate into mainstream culture in a gender role that already exists. However, just focussing on this ignores a couple of points that are relevant.

First, even those of us who transition will have a non-passing phase. Even if it's just a phase, during that phase they are seen as queer by the general population. I for one wouldn't dare to claim that someone who went through such a phase has become an enemy just because they don't want to stay there. Second, quite a few of those who transition end up in one of the GLB categories.

Yes, I agree that someone who has transitioned fully has far less motivation to be active in the GLBT movement than someone who hasn't yet completed their transition or who has no intention to transition fully. Nevertheless, I don't see why that would automatically make them any more attached to the heteronormative gender-binary culture than the cisgendered majority. There is variation of course (as seen from the discussions here), but in my (admittedly limited) experience the disassociation from queer culture is more a matter of survival tactics than overall goals.

Come to think of it, to some extent it's also a right vs. left thing: the right-wing ideology has a strong emphasis on 'what's good for the individual is good for the community', while the left-wing one has it the other way, 'what's good for the community is good for the individual'.

  Nfr

   Romans were slave rapers.

The root article that led to the rebuttal article this topic is about has made another appearance -- this time in a Texas newspaper.

Katia posted the news link here. (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,19895.msg150670.html#msg150670)

Karen

OK, look. For me, here is the bottom line.

Everyone has the right to be treated with respect, to dress as they wish, and behave as they see fit ~ as long as it is not harmfull to someone else ~ NOT because they can fit into any category based on whatever variables you'd care to list. They deserve those rights and freedoms simply because they are a human being, and all human beings are worthy of love, tolerance and understanding.

Now, having said that, IMO, a person that squires themself away into the ruling majority with smoke and mirrors, and who had to have tolerance and acceptance in order to reach the point they are presently at in life, are rather hypocritical when they choose to enforce those same rules on other people. If you desire to assimilate into the heterosexist culture, that is your right. But don't expect me or other queers to give you support to reach a point so that you can then heap discriminatory behavior upon those unlike you, or behind you on the same path.

If I get the feeling that someone is attempting to go from  point of weakness [transitioning] to a point of strength, [stealth] in order to heap abuse on other people ~ to go from oppressed to oppressor ~ I will cut them off at the knees in a heartbeat. When you support the status quo that oppresses anyone, than you are my enemy. I have no problem with people moving through the queer community during their transition. I have a rather large problem with people that do so, and then support the very rules that you were hiding from in the queer community during your transition. That makes you a hypocrite in my eyes, and I don't like hypocrites. At all.

It would be stupid of queers to suppoort people to reach a point where they can work against us. It would be self-defeating. At this point, I am so p.o. by this whole thing, that I hope ENDA fails. Then we can re-write it to exclude those that would be discriminatory. It would be rather simple to do so if the rules only protected those that were out. Anyone living in stealth would have no protections. If they wanted protections, they could form their own organization to fight for them. But then they would have to be out and not stealth?  Quite the conundrum that.

I wonder what post-op people will do when and if the conservatives decide to challenge their status in law? Then maybe they would "get it?"

Quote from: Thundra on September 24, 2007, 02:26:32 PM
If you desire to assimilate into the heterosexist culture, that is your right. But don't expect me or other queers to give you support to reach a point so that you can then heap discriminatory behavior upon those unlike you, or behind you on the same path.

I'm just not sure why you're equating "desire to assimilate into the heterosexist culture" with "heap discriminatory behavior upon those unlike you?"

Sure, I want to blend back in and never be seen as a "transsexual" ever again. But that doesn't mean I'm automatically a bigot, does it? The heterosexist culture isn't the enemy of variant people... the religious right is, IMHO.

~Kate~

Thundra has probably run into the same types I have in the past. That is those who have gone so far into stealth that they will speak poorly about T people in general and lash out viciously to those who they deem are too unpassable and giving everyone else who can a bad image. I have also known a few to slink into the LGB community and bad mouth the T community. I would like to say it is rare but I have seen it way too often.

Those who benefit from those of us who put ourselves on the front line should be those willing to work for the freedoms and support people in general. It is not too much to ask that everyone give a hand in lifting the weight that has been dropped across our shoulders. By ours, I mean everyone. Rich, poor, straight, LGBT, black, white, what the frack ever. There are those who do not want to be bothered for whatever reason and it is those that many have a beef with and will confront where ever they may be.

QuoteThundra has probably run into the same types I have in the past. That is those who have gone so far into stealth that they will speak poorly about T people in general and lash out viciously to those who they deem are too unpassable and giving everyone else who can a bad image. I have also known a few to slink into the LGB community and bad mouth the T community. I would like to say it is rare but I have seen it way too often.

B-I-N-G-O!

If "passing" means badmouthing queers to fit in, that is what they will do.

If "passing" means holding everyone's feet to the fire regarding "the rules for gender," that is what they will do.

If someone wants to walk away and disappear into the mists forever and ever, that is fine.
But someone that wants to be "deep stealth" and get to put their two censt in?  Nuh-uh ba-by! You wanna hide, go and hide - but keep your trap shut and your opinion to yourself. You can't have it both ways.

   I'm still disturbed by the attitudes of those who show no respect or support for off-brand peoples like myself.  I am unable to express my anger or frustration the way Thundra does, so I'm just going to say, "This discussion is not finished".

I feel very strange reading the sharply dichotomous transsexual vs. queer divide here. This doesn't describe me at all.

* I'm a gender-conforming woman currently transitioning who personally aspires to nothing more than being just another woman. I wear dresses, heels, pearls, makeup--like many of my female co-workers. I have a focus on women's issues and belong to women's organizations. In my gender presentation and personal behavior I'm about as ordinary and conservative a woman as can be (except for not menstruating).

* I also identify as a queer woman, belong to several LGBT organizations, take part in the Dyke March, Pride March, and other Pride events every year, and volunteer as an activist in those organizations. Currently working on passing ENDA and the Matthew Shepard hate crimes bill. I bond closely with lesbians and like to be friends with gay men. I identify as queer because I'm either bisexual or lesbian or somewhere in between, anyway I'm a woman who loves women, and whatever you call it, I'm definitely queer. And even if I didn't identify as queer, I would still be an activist for LGBT equality because it's the right thing to do.

Frankly, I'm baffled why anyone would see a dichotomy between the two as necessary. There is no such dichotomy for me. Assimilation into my gender role does not necessarily mean heterosexism.

You realize that you are rarity however, do you not? There are a hundred of them, for every one of you dear. Leigh was a queer too, and she was the only one I'd ever known that had transitioned. Which is why she was beloved by the queer community here. She was as real as it gets.

Nobody is saying that someone should not be str8-identified either. Half of my GF's are str8 women in relationships or not. But, none of them opt for the status quo, which I guess also makes them queer-identified in no small way.

Their attitude is the same as mine. Who cares what someone else does as long as it is not hurting me or someone else in the process? Male-identified people that like to dress feminine and be addressed as such? Whatever?  Same is true for the opposite. People that live in between gender roles ~ or gender F*** practitioners. Whatever makes you happy.

People ought not be penalized from having a place to live, or from holding a job because someone else dislikes the way they dress. That is just stupid IMO. The world would be a much better place if everyone would mind their own GD business.

Posted on: September 25, 2007, 06:24:46 PM

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QuoteWhen in Rome, do what Romans do.  Unfortunately strict laws have to be enforced because there will be always be peeps that abuse the system.  There will always be someone that wants to go to work naked or have sex in an employer toilet and demand that other peeps have to be alright with it.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  A law is supposed to put an end to a "problem" not produce more problems.

Whatev. People always advocate for laws when it benefits them, whether it is bad for other people or not. People that transition have been whining forever that the rules are against them. Now the rules are possibly being changed, and the first thing transitioning people want to do is try and enforce those laws on "other" people.

This disgusts me. A law is supposed to prevent someone from doing something harmful to themselves or other people. Just as it was wrong for the conformist rules of gender to be codified into law in a way that discriminated against people that transition and assimilate into this heterosexist society, it is just as wrong for those rules to be changed to discriminate against people that transition [or not], and DO NOT wish to assimilate into heterosexism.

Quote from: Thundra on September 25, 2007, 06:43:17 PM
You realize that you are rarity however, do you not?

No, I do not realize it. I personally know lots of others like me. That's why this discussion came as a surprise.

Who is Leigh?

Leigh was a dear friend and a former moderator here.

Let me guess?  You are a twenty-something?

Quote from: Thundra on September 25, 2007, 06:43:17 PM
People ought not be penalized from having a place to live, or from holding a job because someone else dislikes the way they dress. That is just stupid IMO. The world would be a much better place if everyone would mind their own GD business.

Damn hell straight!

There's a reason a wiser man than I once proposed "Mind Your Business" as the national motto of the United States.  That's the American way in three words.

Now here's my view.  You have the right to be what you want to be.  And for some people here, that means transitioning and disappearing into the world, and looking for everyone's eyes like a completely unremarkable member of the gender binary, and never speaking up about queer anything.  And that's their right.  No one is compelled to fight for any cause.  But what's not their right is to escape the effects of their choices if they should get outed in a world that sees them as culture-destroying perverts -- which they did nothing to stop, and thereby enabled -- or, worse, acted to support, in an attempt to blend in.  You have the right to make choices.  You don't have the right to escape the consequences of those choices -- freedom means obedience to the laws of nature, not being pardoned from them when they inconvenience you.

So, sure, you can say, "Nuh-uh, I'm a straight woman and always was, I was just born with a birth defect, and it's gone now."  That won't change the fact that if your stealth breaks, you're just as much a target of the anti-queer army as all of us androgynes, genderqueers, crossdressers, gays, bisexuals, and all the rest.

But you don't have to be an out-and-proud activist, either.  Just speaking up when someone disparages gays, transgender people, or whoever (hey, this applies just as well to black people, white people, Arab people, Jews, or any other group that someone might call "a threat to our society," or whatever they call people they don't like) and saying "Hey, that's not right.  They just want to live their lives, like all people, like you and me," and elaborating as necessary and as appropriate, is a very good thing, and if done by enough people, is worth a whole lot of activism.  It is a vote in favor of treating people like people.

(If you don't believe that last part -- that "Hey, that's not right.  They just want to live their lives, like all people, like you and me," -- then do what you want.  I don't care about you.)

I am not going to join in the debate I do however have one question how does someone go about becomming more active in this particular fight (sorry if the answer to this question should be obvious but I have never been active in much of anything so it isn't obvious to me.) I was talking to my wife a couple of weeks ago about feeling the need to speak out about all the injustices surronding these issues but I realized I had no idea how to do it! I know it may sound stupid but I really have no clue even where to start!

Quote from: Jessie_Heart on September 26, 2007, 02:20:17 AM
I am not going to join in the debate I do however have one question how does someone go about becomming more active in this particular fight (sorry if the answer to this question should be obvious but I have never been active in much of anything so it isn't obvious to me.) I was talking to my wife a couple of weeks ago about feeling the need to speak out about all the injustices surronding these issues but I realized I had no idea how to do it! I know it may sound stupid but I really have no clue even where to start!

I wanna know to.  Karen wrote this for me.  but I got no clue how to start.

Quote from: Karen on September 15, 2007, 01:13:04 PM
Hi, Chris;

For people who have finally accepted themselves as trans, it's a very scary road.  Many have been emotionally injured because their search for what's normal for them is discouraged by society.

My first stepfather was from Georgia and would physically and emotionally abuse me for showing the least hint of femininity, fearing that if he didn't act to 'make a man out of me', I would turn into a ->-bleeped-<-got.  He wanted me to play football and other rough ultra-male sports, and tried relentlessly to push me into activities I didn't care for.  Others have had similar experiences of varying intensity.

For the trans guys, it's generally a wee bit easier (notice I said 'generally', individual cases can vary widely.)  Sadly, most societies code maleness as being preferable to femaleness.  But it's still a difficult path for one to take who feels 'the calling', and well-meaning people will make it difficult for the trans-guy to break out of the societal cage.

So, many of us, while we are driven to transition, never learn to accept that we deserve to be our true selves.  It always feels as if we're sneaking into a place we don't belong, or stealing an essence that doesn't belong to us.  And if we can just somehow keep that part of us hidden, we won't get kicked out of the tent.

It's very hard for some of us to accept for themselves that our trans-selves DO belong -- DO have as much right as anybody else to be wherever it is we wish to be.

You don't even need to fight in public.  You can contact elected representatives by e-mail or phone.  You can donate to organizations such as Transgender Law Center or Human Rights Campaign (I've met the San Francisco coordinator.)  There are many things you can do without exposing yourself and being a lightning-rod.

('Auntie') Karen

I don't care about being a lightning rod. I don't want this to be something that I do passively I want to be involved!

Quote from: Katia on September 23, 2007, 04:00:50 AM

one thing is to wear the clothes of your target gender and another thing is to wear silky panties or a mini skirt because they turn you on or whatever.  yea, people can wear whatever they want, not in the workplace though.  i support enda, yet i dont support the idea of people coming to work with clothing that is inappropriate for the workplace.  capiche?

The world is an amusing place, innit, Katia darling?  Bloody hell.  I thought we were pals.  You are my enemy ;) & you owe me, you owe lots ;) :D when are you going to reimburse me?  Greedy girl.  You want it all for yourself. ;) I cant conceive the idea youre happy.  I cant accept it.  I dont want it to be true. Im bursting with envy. Thus I reveal against you & demoralize you in front of everybody even more so that my anger and envy can be veiled behind my supportive post.  ::)
When are you going to pay  me what you owe me?

Lol.  You know that Im joking Katia darling >:D  I had too much coffee this morning.  Forgive my silliness.

Quote from: Thundra on September 25, 2007, 09:11:42 PM
Let me guess?  You are a twenty-something?

What? Oh wouldn't that be nice! LOL I just turned 48.

Posted on: September 26, 2007, 05:09:35 AM

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Quote from: Jessie_Heart on September 26, 2007, 02:20:17 AMhow does someone go about becomming more active in this particular fight

Start here:
Human Rights Campaign
http://www.hrc.org/

National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Foundation (NGLTF)
http://www.thetaskforce.org/

The National Center For Lesbian Rights (NCLR)
http://www.nclrights.org/

Jessie, since you're Ohioan, you really need to get acquainted with Equality Ohio
http://www.equalityohio.org/

In general, search for "Equality [state]" to find the activist group working on your state laws.

From a transgender site - "Queer Activism - Why Bother?" (http://thequality.com/tstar/weblog/archives/002010.html) Here's why.

Quote from: Hypatia on September 26, 2007, 05:26:50 AM

Quote from: Jessie_Heart on September 26, 2007, 02:20:17 AMhow does someone go about becomming more active in this particular fight

Start here:
Human Rights Campaign
http://www.hrc.org/

National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Foundation (NGLTF)
http://www.thetaskforce.org/

The National Center For Lesbian Rights (NCLR)
http://www.nclrights.org/

Jessie, since you're Ohioan, you really need to get acquainted with Equality Ohio
http://www.equalityohio.org/

In general, search for "Equality [state]" to find the activist group working on your state laws.

From a transgender site - "Queer Activism - Why Bother?" (http://thequality.com/tstar/weblog/archives/002010.html) Here's why.

And don't forget the ever popular 'find out who your local state and federal representatives are and be sure to write them concerning topics that matter to you'.

   I need to work on these things myself.  Thanks for the pro responses people, now I can rest [in peace]  :)

thank you for answering my questions :)

I forgot to say to write to local publications also.  Karen told me about that.

QuoteThe world is an amusing place, innit, Katia darling?  Bloody hell.  I thought we were pals.  You are my enemy  & you owe me, you owe lots   when are you going to reimburse me?  Greedy girl.  You want it all for yourself.  I cant conceive the idea youre happy.  I cant accept it.  I dont want it to be true. Im bursting with envy. Thus I reveal against you & demoralize you in front of everybody even more so that my anger and envy can be veiled behind my supportive post. 
When are you going to pay  me what you owe me?

Lol.  You know that Im joking Katia darling   I had too much coffee this morning.  Forgive my silliness.

I salute you for finding a way to be passive-aggressively confrontational while following rules against such. Nice job.  :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:  I haven't seen an act that good since......hmmmmmm?  What?  Oh yeah!  High School!  Now you can relax back in your perfect little world where nothing ever effects you because you are a str8 woman. Salute!

Quote from: Fer on September 26, 2007, 05:09:32 AM

The world is an amusing place, innit, Katia darling?  Bloody hell.  I thought we were pals.  You are my enemy ;)

ha ha ha ha ha.  ask me if i care ;)

Quote from: Fer on September 26, 2007, 05:09:32 AM

you owe me, you owe lots ;) :D

i know i do.  wait.  you're not on my list. ???  my therapist, my family & selegne are but you aren't.  nice try.

Quote from: Fer on September 26, 2007, 05:09:32 AM

When are you going to pay  me what you owe me?

when i get pregnant.  deal? ;)