Susan's Place Transgender Resources

A controversial and possibly triggering topic, I know, but please know that I'm not here to play devil's advocate or to start a fight. I'm just having a hard time, and so I'm reaching out for advice from you all.

Body integrity identity disorder is also known as amputee identity disorder. Some of you guys have probably heard of it because it's often compared to gender identity disorder. People who struggle with this issue are often completely normal except for one thing: they feel a distressing disconnect with their body because to their mind, they're supposed to be an amputee. Many of them feel ashamed of this condition and only discuss it online. Some seek surgical removal of an otherwise healthy leg, and those that can't find a legal and safe way to do so often resort to self-amputation.

The vast majority of people out there feel that treating transsexuality is different from elective limb amputation. While I agree, I'm also sympathetic to the plight of those with BIID. I certainly see the parallels and I'm not sure what the best treatment option for these people is.

So, what's my problem? After spending the last few hours reading about BIID, I find myself completely, utterly, embarrassingly unable to argue why "my thing" is legitimate and not, you know, completely bonkers. Aren't I cutting off my perfectly healthy, normal breasts just because I feel that they're "not supposed to" be there? I can't stop thinking about how ludicrous I must seem from the outside. My classmates were shocked and horrified after hearing about healthy people cutting off their limbs, and suddenly, I can't help but see myself and my gender the same way.

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has these worries. How do you rationalise them away? Or can you all see the differences clearly? If so, please share.

I don't think it's the same at all.  It is perfectly normal to be born with a male or female body.  Assuming that the highly probable theories on pre natal brain development are correct then any action  done later to bring mind and body into alignment are done to make normal what was before not normal.

It is not however normal to be born with missing limbs.  So any BID surgeries are done to make not normal what was originally normal.


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Quote from: captains on November 11, 2015, 09:37:18 AM
I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has these worries. How do you rationalise them away? Or can you all see the differences clearly? If so, please share.

Everyone is born wired to be a particular gender. For most people, that gender matches their body sex. For some of us our gender doesn't match our body sex. This has nothing to do with BIID. This is a mismatch between the way our brain is wired and our body's sex.

There are only two ways to fix that mismatch, change the brain or change the body. The first appears to be impossible (or at least no one has ever managed to do it), so the only remaining option is to change the body so that it matches the gender in the brain.

This makes it very clear in my head. Does this help?

I can answer the specific example you mentioned about 'healthy breasts' Captain because I was also asked this question many times from family members when I was suffering having to carry those burdens. My situation was beyond 'gender dysphoria' because when they started forming, I didn't even think of gender, I was consumed by the utmost disgust because it wasn't right.  It was metamorphosis for me and I was literally punching them (like I would a punching bag)  almost every single day although I would feel the pain badly afterwards but I knew they shouldn't belong to me.  I hated them so much that I even wrathfully wished for the surgeon to save them so we could see "eye to eye" and spit on the damn things after being post op.

Not to mention, those healthy functioning extra bits were USELESS for me, more like EXTRA WEIGHTS I didn't want to carry, to look at and ultimately messed up my back from binding so extremely.  I took my showers without light  because of those things.

to the o.p. , comparing the two disorders is an apple and oranges kind of thing. comparing to totally different things, just will make your brain hurt and not really accomplish anything...........

Fixing the brain raises an ethical issue anyway depending on your metaphysical view of where "the self" or "identity" is located.  If it is in the brain and by extension the mind, which seems obvious to me, then rewiring the brain would effectively destroy the old person and create a new one in its place.  In effect it would be suicide. 

Who wants to volunteer?


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Thanks for the replies, everyone.  :)

Quote from: makipu on November 11, 2015, 11:15:13 AM
I can answer the specific example you mentioned about 'healthy breasts' Captain because I was also asked this question many times from family members when I was suffering having to carry those burdens. My situation was beyond 'gender dysphoria' because when they started forming, I didn't even think of gender, I was consumed by the utmost disgust because it wasn't right.  It was metamorphosis for me and I was literally punching them (like I would a punching bag)  almost every single day although I would feel the pain badly afterwards but I knew they shouldn't belong to me.  I hated them so much that I even wrathfully wished for the surgeon to save them so we could see "eye to eye" and spit on the damn things after being post op.

Not to mention, those healthy functioning extra bits were USELESS for me, more like EXTRA WEIGHTS I didn't want to carry, to look at and ultimately messed up my back from binding so extremely.  I took my showers without light  because of those things.

Oh, I absolutely understand, makipu. I would never ever question the legitimacy of top surgery (especially when I'm scheduling it myself). Honestly, I think 9/10ths of why I feel so awful about gender stuff today is because I'm not binding due to back pain. It's not even about my breasts specifically; more like there's something about the entire picture that makes me feel sickweirduglywrong. Like when I'm not binding, everything is off.

I guess my issue is that despite my discomfort, I have to acknowledge that there's nothing physiologically "wrong" with my breasts. Hell, I used to wish that there was, that I would be diagnosed with cancer and be "forced" into a double mastectomy. And I can see the parallels between that and a person with BIID hoping they'll be hit by a train so that doctors will have to amputate a leg they feel isn't supposed to belong to them. I read a study that said that all of the people with BIID who had an amputation done had happier, healthier lives than they did before. They were functionally less disabled afterwards.

It'd be fine if I had read all this and realised that BIID is "just as real" as gender dysphoria, but for some unholy reason my brain seems to have decided to re-categorise my dysphoria as "just as disordered/unhealthy/wrong" as BIID. Ugh. Shame is a weird thing.

Quote from: Deborah on November 11, 2015, 10:55:10 AM
I don't think it's the same at all.  It is perfectly normal to be born with a male or female body.  Assuming that the highly probable theories on pre natal brain development are correct then any action  done later to bring mind and body into alignment are done to make normal what was before not normal.

It is not however normal to be born with missing limbs.  So any BID surgeries are done to make not normal what was originally normal.

This is true. I think I'm just having a hard time untangling "normalcy." After all, the hypermasculinisation of female brains/the hypomasculinisation of male brains isn't really normal either. A wild type person is cis, not intersex, and has all their limbs. I mean, we talk about our "brain maps" in the trans community all the time -- that is to say, that an MTF brain maps to a female body, while an FTM brain maps to a male body. If a person feels their brain maps to a body without a left calf, is that not sort of similar to me saying that my brain maps to a body without tits?

Just ruminating. I hear what you're saying, Deborah, and your reply helped a lot.

Oops, lots of replies between the time I started writing this post and the time I hit send. Pre-emptive thank you to everyone. I really appreciate it.

I've been thinking about this lately myself, especially with the story about the lady who intentionally blinded herself with drain cleaner because she felt like she should have been born blind.  I don't have some deep explanation, but I just would like the say the difference between us and others is that you don't see many people who have BID, etc. killing themselves over this.  Also, limbs have more practical uses than genitalia or breasts.  I mean, as long as there's a hole to pee through, that's the main thing.  Breasts?  Well for me, I don't ever plan to breastfeed, and no one is deriving sexual pleasure from them, so they are just there.  My eyes?  My hands and legs?  I'd much rather have them.

I totally relate.

I am here now. I feel like I am a girl. I hide dress in my closet. Gender identity disorder. Fine.

The "wrong body" theory came out. I tell my girlfriend and family about that. I see my psychologist and all the stuff.
now I have been asked if I may suggest the best course of action. I can decide to go on HRT as little as I want, if I need to take it slowly.

I definitely need to go slowly. On one hand, I wish I had different genitals.
On the other, this body is healthy and make it easier to have children with my girlfriend.
Plus. Women come in lot of different shapes. If I am a girl, my healthy body is already a girl's one.
Why do I need to picture myself in a different shape to gain some libido ?

I end up with my gender disphoria all questioned.
What does it mean to be a "girl" ? And what is this gender binary thing anyway ? Let's not question that anymore. I am on the purple side. And then ?

I still picture myself in a different shape under the shower to feel comfortable.
In this case, is it due to some genetic defects, to be fixed with HRT ? Side effect, no fatherhood.
Or, is it due to the social binary prison we are living in ? If I accept that chemically I am working well and that doesn't affect the fact I am a girl. Why should I change my body ?

I cannot distinguish if it's me being close minded,not accepting that I have a women body already, or a real chemical defect that need to be cured.

Social dictatorship or gender disphoria, I don't know who is guilty. but I may have a body integrity disorder.
???

So any input is welcome =)

Another key difference: People who cut of limbs or blind themselves are actually taking away their physical capabilities.

When we get GCS, we are actually GIVING ourselves abilities we didn't have before. E.g. FtM top surgery allows you to go without a shirt. MtF bottom surgery allows penetrative sexual activity vaginally.

Its actually really simple - people with BIID are looking to amputate limbs and enter a "non standard" state of existence.

Transpeople would actually like their organs transmuted into fully functional opposite forms and only undergo "amputation" on the reluctant basis that a more medically satisfactory solution is unavailable. So we are not seeking a non standard configuration - merely the opposite to that which we already have. I would have give everything I own and more to have a functional uterus and be fertile.

I did not want to be RID of my reproductive organs at all - I wanted them changed into ovaries uterus and vagina which is absolutely NOT under any stretch of the imagination anything to do with amputation - indeed I only underwent surgery because medical manipulation was unable to effect the metamorphosis - this I feel is a key difference in motiavtion - at very least in a qualitative way.

 :police:
Okay folks let's please keep TOS 9 & 15 in my mind. I can understand and appreciate that your trying explain why things are a certain way, but many have difficulty with certain ideas that have proven wrong. As such, the idea question was removed. Also lets not take responses personally. Thank you
Mariah

I only have a couple things to add here.

1. Some folks are born with missing or incomplete limbs etc.

2.My main point though is from my own experience. Among my self harming and self nullifying behavior pre transition was a desire to have both of my legs broken or removed, to find myself paralyzed etc. I wanted desperately to be recognized as not belonging to the able and healthy bodied world so I could get sympathy for my pain without having to explain or reveal it. Sympathy by proxy. I hoped in some way that facing those kinds of obstacles would repress the gender issues. I also tried to get arrested hoping that prison would either distract me sufficiently or more likely, kill me. I did super risky things in traffic on a bicycle and on foot trying to make the first things happen. I think this disorder we are talking about is more likely a symptom of other issues for these folks. Some people externalize self hate by assaulting others. Some folks deeply internalize self hate and get stress related diseases (I am on that list too). Others seem to internalize with an external expression. These folks have a very real struggle and should be given all of our sympathy. I had some of their behavior but those behaviors were symptoms of my dysphoria.

3.For others it is a fetish or extension of a s&m midnset. No judgment here.

from my perspective I don't want to get rid of my breasts I'm enhancing them. I'm not really getting rid of my genitals just enhancing the ability to functionally use them properly. As I view it an FTM isn't removing the breast just reducing it, which is done by a lot of people whose breasts are to big , both men and woman. The genitals aren't removed just modified for enhancement for functionality. Just my 3,14159 cents worth. I think it's quite different to view a body part as not supposed to be there and like was said losing the functionality. I don't know though , I guess if you saw a better fit in being Robo Cop , but then your replacing it not removing it per se.

Thanks for your insight, everyone. These are all really good points (and I feel much better). I appreciate everyone taking the time to puzzle this out with me.

my therapist charges $299 a session

I'm saving a bundle getting help secondhand.

I don't think there's an answer to the question and its not useful to consider it.

I don't believe there's any clear understanding of why people are transgender, and BIID is probably much the same. At best we can come up with an answer that makes us feel good. Personally I'm fine just accepting the way I am, with HRT/SRS/etc of course.

To ask the question also leads to the idea that there's something wrong with BIID. There's something wrong with them, but we're ok. Only its not at all clear what the difference is, and even less so for non-trans people. That's a hole I don't want to go down.

i saw some writing recently on how they are associated with different areas of the brain and have different root causes.

I would liken top surgery more to a man with gynacomastia than biid; would they have biid for wanting to remove breasts? my nephew was born with a lump on his ear, it was fine, his ear even, but the drs just operated to remove it to bring him into line with society, right or wrong, so that he lookedlike 'any other boy' - whatever that is. adults do that too, and its no way considered biid, its just considered to be 'correcting a birth defect. other 'natural bodies' are 'corrected in the same way, like harelip. they are corrections which help you look and feel right as well as function better.

To me, the difference seems clear enough.

Both GD and BIID sufferers want to resolve a mismatch between their self-image and their actual physical body, but for GD it improves our quality of life and lets us be fully functional. For BIID sufferers it may ease the mental strain but it often reduces their physical abilities.

I do not like having GD but I would rather have it than BIID.

I actually think it is a compelling analogy. Here's some points of comparison:

-Long-standing intense desire often stemming from childhood
-Mismatch between brain's representation of the body and the actual body
-Intense suffering that interferes with daily life
-Desires are precise. It's not just "i dont want my leg" but "I dont want my leg 2 centimeters below the knee)
-Amputation relieves the suffering (from what little evidence we have)

People have mentioned that it's not "normal" to want to be disabled. But how do we define what's normal? Who gets to define that? I think that there are no absolute objective one-size-fits-all normative definitions of what is normal and what is not normal or what is healthy and what is non healthy. Who are we to judge what is normal or healthy? For me the important part is about relieving suffering. Amputating BIID patients seems to make them happier. Also, amputating BIID patients is a way to respect their autonomy. It's not obvious that BIID patients are "irrational" or "incompetent" in any way - they seem capable of making autonomous choices and deciding for themselves how they want their bodies to look. I say we respect that no matter how difficult it seems from society.

If you think about all the things people are saying NOW about BIID - these things were once also said about transgender people. Think about that. Do you really want to contribute to the oppression of more people? Haven't we learned our lesson from the past about labeling people as "mentally ill" and "pathological"? They used to say that about us. They used to say that about gender confirming surgeries. I think we need perspective on this issue.

The only major disanalogy I can see from transgender and BIID is that BIID seems to be super duper rare (thousands of people) whereas being trans is more common (hundreds of thousands/millions of people).

I can see the comparison, the mismatch of how the brain perceives the body and the actual physical body causing mental distress much like how the immune system reacts to a foreign body. Both sometimes result in physical harm to unwanted parts (BIID sometimes try to self-amputate, some with gender dysphoria try to cause genital harm).

I don't like using the word "normal" but neither one is a typical thing because obviously it would be much easier for the body and brain to match up but I guess the big difference between BIID and trans as people said it's much easier to live in a body that is corrected to match your gender than it is without a leg. But I'm sure those with BIID are much happier mentally once they loose that part of their body just like we are happier when we transition.

Normal doesn't indicate a value judgement.  It's simply a statement of fact from nature that male bodies possess a specific configuration and female bodies a different configuration.  These configurations include matching minds.  If the minds don't match then it's not normal so transition occurs to bring things back into normalcy as much as is possible today.

Yes, many would disagree that transition moves one towards normalcy because they reject the fact that male and female minds exist independent of other body parts.  They simply think we are insane.

With BID it's different because we know what a normal/healthy body consists of.  Removing body parts moves away from the normal ideal unlike transition which is moving towards a normal ideal.  Again, it's not a value judgement but simply a statement of what is physically happening.


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Quote from: makipu on November 11, 2015, 11:15:13 AM
I can answer the specific example you mentioned about 'healthy breasts' Captain because I was also asked this question many times from family members when I was suffering having to carry those burdens. My situation was beyond 'gender dysphoria' because when they started forming, I didn't even think of gender, I was consumed by the utmost disgust because it wasn't right.  It was metamorphosis for me and I was literally punching them (like I would a punching bag)  almost every single day although I would feel the pain badly afterwards but I knew they shouldn't belong to me.  I hated them so much that I even wrathfully wished for the surgeon to save them so we could see "eye to eye" and spit on the damn things after being post op.

Not to mention, those healthy functioning extra bits were USELESS for me, more like EXTRA WEIGHTS I didn't want to carry, to look at and ultimately messed up my back from binding so extremely.  I took my showers without light  because of those things.

I feel just like this! Like the way you describe this breast dysphoria so perfectly matches exactly how I felt during puberty and how I feel every single day afterwards.

I once told a "pen pal" from Sweden how I see my breasts as being tumors and he just called me a weirdo. And well, they still feel that way. :-\...

~Nixy~