Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Scans prove there's no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' brain

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

New Scientist/Daily news  30 November 2015

"To test the theory, Joel and her colleagues looked for differences in brain scans taken from 1400 people aged between 13 and 85. The team looked for variations in the size of brain regions as well as the connections between them. In total, the group identified 29 brain regions that generally seem to be different sizes in self-identified males and females. These include the hippocampus, which is involved in memory, and the inferior frontal gyrus, which is thought to play a role in risk aversion.

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had "all-male" or "all-female" brains, depending on the definition. "Most people are in the middle," says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. "There are not two types of brain," says Joel."

Quote from: stephaniec on December 01, 2015, 07:13:12 PM

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had "all-male" or "all-female" brains, depending on the definition. "Most people are in the middle," says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. "There are not two types of brain," says Joel."

Thanks for posting this Stephanie, though I think their conclusion is completely unwarranted. "There wasn't major differences in size and shape. Therefore they are the same." That's like saying everyone whose head, arms, legs, and midsection are the same size as mine must be the same person as me - we're not two different people. There may be other differences we don't see. I'm also troubled at the lack of data and p-values, which I would find much more convincing than the raw number of people for whom all of their brain characteristics matched their gender.

Agreed, Suzi.  This conclusion cannot be drawn from the evidence given.  If male and female brains are the same, how does one explain the case of David Raymer?

This also does not address the brain's androgen vs. estrogen receptors, which do not show up on these scans.

Why was I able to easily discontinue antidepressants, antianxiety meds and other things after I started HRT, and why did the sturm-und-drang in my head finally go away after all those years?  Why did I feel so happy suddenly, when I never knew what happy really was?

Mark my words, this study will be used as "evidence" against us.

Brain scans in order to establish some gender profile is inherently flawed in the first place. The standard is based on a prejudice. Natal women don't have to pass a brain scan in order to establish their brains to be like a woman's, and no matter how a woman's brain turns out to be, that always just further establishes the mean, or standard. It is only transwoman that have to pass a test, and have to have their brains pass a standard, which indicates how female they are.

So, it is no surprise to me that everyone's brain is different, and woman taken as individuals, and checked against the mean thus often wouldn't pass the test themselves.

No matter what kind of profiling standardization test that one wanted to run, and check trans people against, the fact would always remain that the mean, the standard by which they were checked were always taken to be women, or men without having to pass some test -- they would always be founded in prejudice.

I am okay with the idea that the brain, in general, is non-binary. That explains the diverse range of gender expression. But the proof is in the puding. My favorite real world test is the horror that homosexuals in Iran end up facing. Gender transition or death at the hands of the state. The folks who do not escape and chose gender transition end up with gender dysphoria and all the attendant misery. If these scientists really want to know, find more than this meager selection of 1400 cis people, too small a sample, and have them undergo hormonal and social transition. Their gender expression needs to be supressed as well. After the first few months the cis test subjects will find out what dysphoria is. The difference is not easily explained by social norms, but it is very real. They need to stop testing for expression. Look for identity. That may be a more centralized, and perhaps ineffable piece of the neurological map than they are assuming. Like the question of dark matter or what exists beteen particles.

Quote from: Jill F on December 01, 2015, 09:56:36 PM
Mark my words, this study will be used as "evidence" against us.

That was my first thought when I found out about this study Jill. For some reason the naysayers insist on scientific evidence to prove who we are; our own words and lived experiences aren't enough for them.

I'll bet that if the proverbial smoking gun was discovered it probably would be rejected by the naysayers. They have a need to believe that we don't exist.

The study and the researchers in question reason that there is more research to be done, while the journalist, in writing this article, has editorialized a lot more than she should have.

Neat read, but nothing more than that. ;)

Audree

All of the previous studies I've seen stated that the differences are too fine to show well on scans. They used post mortem dissection. They also noted an overlap in structures. This article will definitely be misused as a headline and a soundbite to "prove" that we're "simply emotionally disturbed" not physically different.

This article does seem to be arguing a non-binary point at the expense of a transgender one. The author loosely groups people into about 4% female, 92% non-gendered, 4% male. Anyone with any scientific training would immediately suspect a bell curve, a continuum rather than three distinct points. The terfs and the reactionaries will have a field day with this one.

Many, many, many years ago, I needed some sort of confirmation. I don't care any longer. It would be nice but it doesn't matter. It would be nice for those looking for answers.

I do agree that this is going to be used against us. That doesn't matter to me either.

Cindi

They can't make their minds up
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

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Quote from: AshleyBeech on December 02, 2015, 12:25:59 PM
They can't make their minds up
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

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That one ^ was posted on Jan 26th 2011

The one in the OP's post was posted on Nov 30th 2015. I'd say they "have" made up their "minds." I haven't read either one nor will I, thanks everyone for saving me some time.  ;D