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Caitlyn Jenner Says Looking Like A Man In A Dress Makes People Uncomfortable

http://www.inquisitr.com/2627089/caitlyn-jenner-says-looking-like-a-man-in-a-dress-makes-people-uncomfortable/#utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+google%2FyDYq+%28The+Inquisitr+-+News%29

Inquisitr/By Niki Cruz     12/11/2015

Reading the article I come away with the impression that she has no idea at all what this is like for the majority of us.  She's worried about looking good for the paparazzi while many others are worried about being killed.


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We should invite Caitlyn to this forum and have a real discussion with her.

I mean really bring the real issues out there. That's what she needs to be putting on her show. Helping the T community rather than her own image.

Doubt she would even reply. Maybe we ought to give it a shot though... anyone know how to go about that respectfully??

Audree

How do you know that she isn't already here?

Indeed!

Well if she is I apologize if I was offensive but I just can't relate at all to the comments in that article.


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I think the vitriol is misplaced. My reading of Jenner's interview is that this is her experience. She has observed that people feel uncomfortable when around non-passing trans women and it's important to her that people don't see her that way.

She is entitled to that opinion and that viewpoint.

The fact that she does and that she expresses it doesn't make her transphobic. She has just as much a right to speak her mind as any of us.

Yes, I criticized the decision of the U.N. to choose her as a spokesperson, but when she's talking to the media, she has a perfect right to present her point of view. It don't agree with everything she (or anyone else) says, but it's a valid point of view and I'm happy to listen to it.

Well, seeing "a man in a dress" does make a lot of people uncomfortable, that's a simple and obvious truth.

The way to fix that is to acknowledge it and approach those people with that in mind. Why are they uncomfortable? Because gender standards are seen as inviolate..."men should be men, and wear manly clothes. To do otherwise is to invite the idea that less manly men are ok...and if I tolerate that, then maybe I am a less-manly man."

Hmm...put that way, it sounds a lot like what I heard as a kid: if one was for civil rights of blacks, then s/he must be a "n***** lover", and very few whites wanted that reputation.

Over time it was accepted that civil rights are inherent in being American; it is what an individual does with them that determines if someone is good or bad ("...judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin...")

We could paraphrase that with, "...judged by the content of their character, not the clothes they wear."

What she's tapping into is not just transphobia, it's misogyny.  Maybe this is her first true feeling as a woman, and I do feel for her.  If you look at the people that she's surrounded herself with, it shouldn't be too surprising what her perspective is.  I hope that with time she discovers that there's more to being a woman than looking good for men. 

I kind of find this whole experience as similar to the Trump circus in some ways.  It seemed to come out of nowhere, and lots of people got on the bandwagon, hoping that she'd be a visible champion that would raise the level of public perceptions in ways that non-celebrities can't always reach.  But now in the light of day, we find that she's not really a spokesperson, a role model, just someone trying to make a buck by being known, and finding that even the most outrageous statements, eliciting the most negative responses, still serve to keep the spotlight on.  There's no such thing as bad publicity, they say. 

In honor of Ms. Jenner's statement.  Apparently I will be going out today looking like a man dressed as a woman.  A nice fitted Ann Taylor piece in burgundy.  Hopefully I get sired so I can lift my dress and show them what this woman looks like.  And no, I won't be wearing panties, as usual. Hope that brings them some comfort.

Anne

Quote from: audreelyn on December 11, 2015, 10:44:00 PM
We should invite Caitlyn to this forum and have a real discussion with her.

I mean really bring the real issues out there. That's what she needs to be putting on her show. Helping the T community rather than her own image.

Doubt she would even reply. Maybe we ought to give it a shot though... anyone know how to go about that respectfully??

Audree

Hi Audree

I completely agree with you. I don't think she would ever reply but it is a great Idea. I have talked to Candice Caine and she is a sweet heart but she is a busy lady too.

Hugs
Lyndsey

Quote from: Dee Marshall on December 12, 2015, 04:39:41 AM
How do you know that she isn't already here?

Best...post...ever!  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Although I still stand by my first comment (that the only people with a problem are those with gender issues themselves), after having read the article, I've gotta say...

Caitlin is an elitest, "upper crust" ignorant...woman.

The "miad" statements are directed at US, not those with the actual problem...not all of us can afford SRS, let alone FFS and dedicated staff to help us with wardrobe and makeup...are we the ones contributing to the discomfort of others, or is it THEIR fault for having misguided ideas about gender?

Then she talks about "getting an entry level job" rather than being on welfare! LOL! She's over 60 and looks reasonably good...but has she tried to get an entry-level job? It's not that easy once one is over about 30...nevermind that many employers, entry level or not, won't hire an trans*person, whether or not they "pass"! Again, the opinion that we are all likely sex workers or welfare recipients is based on a false idea--that we don't want to work...when the truth is that employers won't hire us because we don't fit their ideas or their customers ideas of gender!

THAT is where the problem lies, not in the snooty "I'm better than you, and you should try to be more like me" nonsense of the rich.

/rant over

Quote from: Deborah on December 11, 2015, 10:32:35 PM
Caitlyn Jenner Says Looking Like A Man In A Dress Makes People Uncomfortable

http://www.inquisitr.com/2627089/caitlyn-jenner-says-looking-like-a-man-in-a-dress-makes-people-uncomfortable/#utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+google%2FyDYq+%28The+Inquisitr+-+News%29

Inquisitr/By Niki Cruz     12/11/2015

Reading the article I come away with the impression that she has no idea at all what this is like for the majority of us.  She's worried about looking good for the paparazzi while many others are worried about being killed.


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I'm not worried about being killed, but passing would be nice.

I think a lot of it is attitude. While I am very early in this, I've always had the attitude that if someone laid a hand on me, god help them. I won't be a victim. Again.


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Quote from: audreelyn on December 11, 2015, 10:44:00 PM
We should invite Caitlyn to this forum and have a real discussion with her.

I mean really bring the real issues out there. That's what she needs to be putting on her show. Helping the T community rather than her own image.

Doubt she would even reply. Maybe we ought to give it a shot though... anyone know how to go about that respectfully??

Audree

Go to Jennifer Finney Boylan's website and use the contact e-mail address there.  Someone who is more literate than I could e-mail Jenny since she's one of Caitlyn's mentors and invite Caitlyn here.  Who knows if it would do any good but might be worth a try. 

I've defended her in the past but I'm going to have trouble doing that in the future if she keeps making stupid comments. 

That is a great Idea

Quote from: Dayta on December 12, 2015, 08:46:31 AM
What she's tapping into is not just transphobia, it's misogyny. 

I don't get how her comments were transphobic. She is probably right when she says most people would be uncomfortable dealing with someone who looks like "a man in a dress".  It's not a judgement, it's an empirical observation. I don't see it as misogynistic, either.  Everyone gets judged by their appearance, including men.  That's just the way the world works.   

Quote from: Beth Andrea on December 12, 2015, 12:55:55 PM
...are we the ones contributing to the discomfort of others, or is it THEIR fault for having misguided ideas about gender?

Yes, transgender people make some people uncomfortable.  That's just a fact. As far as attributing "fault" to anyone who doesn't see things your/our way, that's a bit arrogant, and very self-defeating when you are asking for understanding and accommodation.  Much like the civil rights movement in the 1960s over race, it was not all that obvious to everyone then that racial equality was not only morally right, but benefitted everyone.  It's not obvious to everyone even now.

So if you think you can tell people, "You're wrong about gender, and it's your own damn fault for not agreeing with me", be my guest, but I don't think it will get you, or the transgender community very far.

With kindness,

Terri
 

In some ways this is no different that politics and in some ways worse. If someone doesn't read from the prescribed talking points and use the right doxology, they are condemned. It's bad enough that we're not accepted and have shame because of that, do we need to shame people that don't talk and act in a way that conforms to a de facto set of rules? I hope not.

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on December 12, 2015, 02:11:36 PM
Go to Jennifer Finney Boylan's website and use the contact e-mail address there.  Someone who is more literate than I could e-mail Jenny since she's one of Caitlyn's mentors and invite Caitlyn here.  Who knows if it would do any good but might be worth a try. 

I've defended her in the past but I'm going to have trouble doing that in the future if she keeps making stupid comments.

I've emailed Jenny and she responded to me. She's a very sincere person and makes the effort to connect. It's worth a try.

I would have preferred if Ms. Jenner's comments had been followed by her saying "but people have to do what they have to, and unfortunately not everyone has the resources to have all of the plastic surgery, fashion advice, counseling, voice lessons and other benefits that one gets by being the star on several pseudo-reality TV shows." Frankly, I liked Caitlyn better when she was on a Wheaties box. And whatever that most courageous award was all about, she should have had to come down to where we all live - in the real world - and she would have seen what courage is really all about.

Mod Edit: Corrected misgendering.

Quote from: OOAnne on December 12, 2015, 08:50:53 AM
In honor of Ms. Jenner's statement.  Apparently I will be going out today looking like a man dressed as a woman.  A nice fitted Ann Taylor piece in burgundy.  Hopefully I get sired so I can lift my dress and show them what this woman looks like.  And no, I won't be wearing panties, as usual. Hope that brings them some comfort.

Anne

Hi Anne you are too funny
Lyndsey

Thanks Lyndsey!!

Lol Dee, oh wow, you could be right.

Okay, I think I am so down with taking on this task of emailing Jenny.

I mean, not one girl has all the answers... or all the right questions for one. Regardless of her current rhetoric, not all of us see Cait as the best rolemodel or the spokesperson for the T girls, but I think bc of her positioning we can at least help her do a better job.

So let me open it up to all of you, what do YOU think Cait should be talking about and addressing? How and why??

And I can use your suggestions and ideas to provide a good platform and reason for Jenny to pass this on, and maybe convince Cait to revamp her game, if you will.

Yay go team<3

Audree

Quote from: audreelyn on December 12, 2015, 05:18:37 PM
Thanks Lyndsey!!

Lol Dee, oh wow, you could be right.

Okay, I think I am so down with taking on this task of emailing Jenny.

I mean, not one girl has all the answers... or all the right questions for one. Regardless of her current rhetoric, not all of us see Cait as the best rolemodel or the spokesperson for the T girls, but I think bc of her positioning we can at least help her do a better job.

So let me open it up to all of you, what do YOU think Cait should be talking about and addressing? How and why??

And I can use your suggestions and ideas to provide a good platform and reason for Jenny to pass this on, and maybe convince Cait to revamp her game, if you will.

Yay go team<3

Audree

I think that she need to come down here to were 99.9% of us are and talk and help people at this level and then she will learn a lot about how hard it can be when you are a nobody. also I think on this site she should change her name here so as not to attract attention to her self as Catlynn. It would be better for her and us both as we all talk normal to each other. Just a thought

Lyndsey

Caitlyn has become one of the Kardashian-Jenner divas, hasn't she.    But just look at the pictures of her since she was an Olympic star.   She has been concerned with her image, hasn't she.    Even when she was living butch, she just had to be the cutest stud in town.    I guess once a diva, always a diva.    Will she be the next Mrs.  Donald Trump?   What Republican stud is going to court her? When she becomes the bell of the ball at all the Republican shindigs, you will see a changed Republican party.   I am not  going to say that it wouldn't be great for us trans women or men either if that actually happened.   But, I am not holding my breath and I am going to check and see if hell has frozen over and to see if pigs fly.

It does make people uncomfortable, and it does put the wearer in potential danger. I think this is something that needs to change, there should be nothing wrong with a man in a dress, make up, whatever.

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The fact that it's true isn't really the issue.  It's the fact that she seems to think that it is a perfectly reasonable attitude that everyone should adopt that grates on me.


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Exactly. She seems to think that it's on us to do whatever we have to to ensure other people's "comfort" with us, no matter the cost, financial, emotional, or physical.

It's on everyone to help others feel comfortable, and the number one tool for that is -- ta-da... courtesy. Showing respect to others, being polite, helping them when they need it, etc., are all basic to a civil society.

There are times when being courteous does require conforming to social norms, including taking care about one's appearance: if I'm going to a funeral, for example, I dress pretty formally -- whatever is appropriate to the standards of the bereaved. If I'm going to the supermarket, not so much. I treat others courteously and I expect the same from them.

But courtesy doesn't require us to try to change what we can't. If a trans person isn't "passable" because of physical characteristics they can't change, it is not on them if they make people uncomfortable. They deserve courteous treatment no matter what, and it's dead wrong to criticize them because they're "not making an effort."

Physical limitations are no excuse for disrespect: people are often uncomfortable with those who use a wheelchair, and they can be very rude: ignoring them, treating them like children, talking over their heads, asking them intrusive questions about their disability -- just to name a few examples.

But damn me if I can imagine a disabled person who has learned to walk with crutches saying that someone who uses a wheelchair should just get up and walk so that able-bodied people can feel more comfortable.

This ain't no different.

Being out of touch with reality, carrying around a heavy feeling of entitlement, constantly projecting your own issues on others, and being trans at the same time sometimes just occurs coincidentally all at once.

Locking this thread due to bashing. It's run its course.