Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Transgender woman refused from a women's festival in Australia

http://mashable.com/2015/12/14/transgender-woman-festival-australia/#M0XPIbuYGZqU

Mashable/By Johnny Lieu   12/14/2015

"A preoperative transgender woman has been told she can't attend a women's festival in the Australian state of Victoria — because she isn't physically a woman.

The Seven Sisters Festival in March 2016 is a three-day women's only event in Mount Martha, 60 kilometres (37 miles) south-east of Melbourne. The festival's website said it aims to provide a space that is empowering, connective and will inspire women — but not for some transgender women, it seems."

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwittybitches.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F03%2Ftransphobic-meme.jpeg&hash=a0733de959bba1283813a082895ad5d68cad6ae0)

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I actively supported the Equal Rights Amendment here at the USA during the 1970s and 1980s.

While I was still presenting as male, I was an active member of both National Organization for Women and Equal Rights Coalition for several years.  While I resided at Utah, I participated conducting our semi-annual joint protests of the LDS church during their semi-annual conferences.  We would hold licenced, public pickets and rallies on the sidewalks and streets surrounding Temple Square.  We had more than enough people at one event (1982?) that we literally encircled the entire Temple Square city block and held hands - letting public passersby use the sidewalk of course, we weren't 'criminals'.

Anyway, there was one time when NOW announced a big after-event party and declared it 'for women only'.  I quietly groused about their bigoted move for several days in advance of the party and I questioned the local personnel how that did not violate the spirit and letter of Equal Rights and Feminism.  They never quite provided an answer to me.

As women entered the closed-door location the night of the celebration, I approached the woman in charge and asked, 'Do you really think you can go through with this by excluding the men who worked hard on this campaign?' and again the NOW officer failed to answer my question.

For a slight moment I had these two thoughts:

   -  I considered taking out my driver's licence and showing my nice big 'F' and telling the woman at the door whether she would deny entrance to me.  Nah.

   -  As I walked away, I then thought 'Why not go home, dress in Sharon mode, and return demanding entrance to the party?'  They would not have recognised me so they would have demanded ID.  Well, my licence is in my name of Sharon / female, not my male predecessor Nick.  That would certainly surprise a few of the members to say the least.  Nah.

The third thought was better.  I went home and decided that I would devote all my efforts with ERC.  That was a great move.  Turns out, many men and women of the Utah groups of NOW abandoned them because of their discriminatory act holding their women-only gathering.  Those disgruntled members also devoted their time primarily with ERC such that Utah's NOW chapters faded.

I have not been a member of NOW since then so I have no idea if NOW recovered from that blow or learned their lesson that discrimination is wrong.

The Utah State Historical Society has a 'permanent collection' established which archives ERC activities and is available for public perusal through their web-site.

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What gets me is the pre - post op.

Genital check?

Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2015, 02:34:58 AM
What gets me is the pre - post op.

Genital check?

body scan cops

The media has had a poke at them over it.. Most social media is not a friendly place for the organisers right now either.

In the beginning I was always barred from entering night clubs for being so clockable, now these same bouncers are all at my feet and they don't even realize I was the same person lol.

Quote from: Cindy on December 14, 2015, 02:34:58 AM
What gets me is the pre - post op.

Genital check?

To a degree I can understand what they're on about. And yes, genitalia may be an issue. Some women's groups that focus on connectivity of the commune often allow participants the right of dressing or not dressing as a means of self expression.

If I was an event organiser of such an event, I too, would be very concerned that non conforming genitalia could be conceived as very confronting under such highly emotional / spiritual moments. I think they have ever right to be very dogmatic on this point.

Speak to you as soon as I make a cuppa.

Huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on December 14, 2015, 05:58:02 AM
If I was an event organiser of such an event, I too, would be very concerned that non conforming genitalia could be conceived as very confronting under such highly emotional / spiritual moments. I think they have ever right to be very dogmatic on this point.

I can understand that too, some women in attendance will have been sexually assaulted/raped...if they're there for some rainbow healing time then the random sight of a penis could be highly triggering and traumatic. Even so, there needs to be a way to accomodate trans women, with or without peen. As with most cases like this I think it probably boils down to the fact that they have zero idea about the transition process and believe that the operation is the only actual step involved.

You indeed are quite right, Grace. In my early days of transition, I was invited to an introduction meeting to a similar group. At that meeting I quickly understood the profound and devastating effects domestic violence, both physical and more so psychological violence can have on women. It was extremely confronting for me.

Although I was encouraged to participate in a healing weekend, with the understanding, there would be a variety of expression through dress, or not, I felt I had to be extremely respectful of that healing process and not cause any undue or unexpected confrontations is such a highly emotional process.

The profound disfigurement and debilitating effects of violence on women is utterly devastating when seen in its raw, vunerable state. You've really got to respect it.

And if that's what the Seven Sister are on about, I'd say, give them their space. No one else is prepared to do what they're doing.

Speak to you as soon as I dry my eyes.

Huggs
Catherine

"...undertaken all operative procedures to become a woman."

And who decides what "all" these "procedures" amounts to?

Still............."with love"........so really, I mean.........

??? >:(

Yeah, they're clearly clueless.

Quote from: rosinstraya on December 14, 2015, 06:34:36 AM
"...undertaken all operative procedures to become a woman."

And who decides what "all" these "procedures" amounts to?

Still............."with love"........so really, I mean.........

??? >:(

My guess would be the management committee of the Seven Sisters organisation who are duly charged with administering and enacting the authority of exercising the various covenants of their constitution and articles of association.

I too, with love and respect, wish and grant them every exclusion and right, under the sun, they need, should they be providing this much needed healing opportunity. You've got to see it, to believe it. Then you'll more than respect it.

With love and respect

Catherine

Women-only festival implements 'no transgender' policy... and then bans discussion of it

Nick Duffy 
Pink News
14th December 2015, 11:16 AM

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/12/14/women-only-festival-implements-no-transgender-policy-and-then-bans-discussion-of-it/?utm_source=PNFB&utm_medium=socialFB&utm_campaign=PNFacebook (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/12/14/women-only-festival-implements-no-transgender-policy-and-then-bans-discussion-of-it/?utm_source=PNFB&utm_medium=socialFB&utm_campaign=PNFacebook)

"A women's festival in Australia will not allow trans women to take part – and has banned discussion of the issue."

so , sorry for my possible misguided interpretation of events , but the validity of their argument for exclusion is violence against women by men , which can be said that fundamentally  that Ms. Greer is correct in that Transgender women are not  women.

Hi Stephanie,

Thank you for your clarification on the matter. The reference to Germaine Geer; is that part of the Seven Sisters mandate? Is that their philosophy? I may have missed it when I read their article, and as yet I haven't visited their FB page.

Speak to you as soon as I have put the dinner things away.

Huggs
Catherine

no , as far as I know her name isn't mentioned , but the implications for her philosophy being the fundamental principle of exclusion seem to be obvious.  We all know the brutality and violence of men against woman and how severely wrong that is. I also know that the freedom to freely associate with others in an atmosphere of total and uninhibited safety is of the utmost importance in healing. The Michigan Woman's Festival here in the states that was held every year was shut down for the same reason this festival is being protested.  I just mentioned Greer because she is basically the foremost guiding light of the feminist movement and her views are quite regarded as the cornerstone of feminism and the woman's movement. To me even if not explicitly stated , when the pivotal philosophy  is exclusion of men her philosophy must be considered part of the rationale. Although in this instance those who have had the surgery are accepted whereas she wouldn't allow for that. I guess I shouldn't of bought up her name , but the festival drawing the hard line of what is acceptable as representing being a woman brought her rationale  immediately to mind and given the major  brew ha ha that's been going on lately about her in the media. It is troubling that these festivals are having this problem. It is also such that this problem is so deeply entwined in the philosophy for having these festivals.

This Year's Michigan Womyn's Music Festival Will Be the Last

http://www.advocate.com/michfest/2015/04/21/years-michigan-womyns-music-festival-will-be-last

The Advocate/By Trudy Ring April 21 2015 9:17 PM EDT

I can see where you're coming from, Stephanie.

It's not until you become involved in organisation like this that you understand and appreciate what the art of healing is all about  The devastating debilitating effect violence has on women is soooo profound and gut wrenching that it defies description. You actually have to experience someone going through it to appreciate the wanton debilitating and devastating effects it has on people. It's something you can't read about. It doesn't adequately convey the depths of the abys some women experience. Some even take it to an early grave, it's that incideous.

You quickly appreciate too, the secular constructs of feminism, Geer and Genner are just soooo alien and juxtaposed, they bear no resemblance whatsoever to what these organisations are trying to achieve. It's when you know the team leaders you understand how insultive it is to them to have any association to these constructs in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence.

This person who is creating the fracus, just wanting "in" for "ins" sake; they need to take a breath, step back and attempt to respect something they may not, or never understand. There are some situations in all stratum of society we need to mind our own bloody business and let those producing the results, produce the results.

The typical alpha type personality, burn the bra, shoot the bloody Aussie type will not understand, less appreciate what organisations like this are doing.

With love and respect.
Catherine

I understand where your coming from, the problem is in the larger scheme of things your justify the use of abuse because of abuse . To extrapolate the logic of using an abuse as a valid answer to rectify another abuse  doesn't seem to be the most beneficial approach.  I personally have no interest in  needing to be involved in a designated totally absolute woman's space. I'm totally content living my life without infringing on anyone]s space , but my own. The problem is these organizations are creating standards that other organizations use for their own models of governance. I really have no intention of arguing this point . I'm just trying to say there should be a solution that everyone can live with without doing to others what you don't want done to you.

Yeah, more discrimination, ignorance, and exclusion, hurray! There ought to be laws against this.

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on December 14, 2015, 09:38:01 AM
The devastating debilitating effect violence has on women is soooo profound and gut wrenching that it defies description.

The thing is, AFAIK, most Women's Festivals are not abuse support groups.

A year or so ago, someone I know went to the Michigan Women's Music Festival, which is sort of the poster child for trans-exclusive women's events.  The way she described it, it was not exactly focussed on being a "safe space" for abused women.  Sleeping in a tent in the middle of a cow pasture, mud, port-a-potties, mob scenes.  It didn't sound like it was all that different from a concert in Central Park (except that Central Park is more civilized.)  It was, if anything, more like "N days not surrounded by dude-bros."  If there was any display of genitalia, she didn't mention it.

I can see having "safe spaces" for abused women, but it seems to me that you'd need to do more than just exclude men (however defined) to make them safe.  Not to mention that plenty of women are abused by other women.  (E.g., abuse in lesbian relationships, abuse by female relatives, etc.)

As a person who serves on the board of directors of a sexual violence non-profit serving some 3,000,000 people, I'm not buying the violence argument as a basis for descrimination against a pre-op transgendered woman. 

Last year in our area, about 20% of the incidents were against men.  About another 15% was against transgendered individuals.  Sexual violence knows no bounds.

It was a conference for women.  It was descrimination.

Unfortunately, descrimination knows no bounds either.

Jen

I find myself asking the question why would any transgender person wish to attend such a festival?

Is the billing of women's festival, the main draw?
Does attending such an event serve as a form of social validation?
Or would my presence increase social awareness?
Or does the prospect of being denied entry offer an opportunity to draw media attention to the "transgender cause"?

I fear all these arguments tread on thin ice. In a practical sense, how does one allow transgender inclusivity without also destroying gender exclusivity?

If you view the world as a series of gates all you end up doing is gatecrashing. This is a festival not a battleground. To declare victory through gaining access brings to mind the old adage:- choose your battles wisely (because you might win!)

Or perhaps we all secretly crave social membership which offers "just enough exclusivity" to validate our identities but not others?

In any case, this is the sort of event I would choose to leave well alone.

Quote from: cathyrains on December 15, 2015, 01:35:50 PM
I find myself asking the question why would any transgender person wish to attend such a festival?

Wouldn't it be for the same reasons a cisgender person would?

Quote from: suzifrommd on December 15, 2015, 01:48:46 PM
Wouldn't it be for the same reasons a cisgender person would?

Ergo the second line of my post. Please do try to read all the words.

"A women's festival in Australia will not allow trans women to take part – and has banned discussion of the issue."
[/quote]

Well, that is certainly democracy in action. More like a dictatorship.

Love,
Clare

7 Sisters seems to have back tracked, this is on their web page


"Seven Sisters Festival


4 hrs ·
.

Seven Sisters Festival has never had an official policy regarding the participation of transgender and intersex women. However, it has been the philosophy and intent of the festival, since its first year, to welcome all women. Transgender and intersex women have attended past festivals.

Official policy is not represented in the published reply to Kylee which is cited by the media. Recent events have highlighted the significance of this omission and the necessity to address it.

Therefore, the Seven Sisters team wish to issue its official policy regarding the participation of transgender and intersex women in the festival as follows:

Seven Sisters Festival welcomes all women, including: women of culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds (CALD), women of transgender, intersex and diverse sexualities, women of diverse abilities, and women of diverse religious backgrounds and belief. Our position is one of full participation in what is a large, public event. We recognise the diversity of our community and will be working within a framework of affirmative action and self-determination.

We have employed a cultural, sexuality and gender advisor and we are consulting with various advocacy groups to ensure the festival is inclusive, welcoming, and safe for all. Your assistance is also welcome in this important journey. Suggestions can be forwarded to our 'Cultural, sexuality and gender advisor': katie@sevensistersfestival.com

Our team, have contacted Kylee and her partner, seeking to apologise and we also wish to extend an apology to the transgender, intersex and seven sisters community for any duress and confusion we may have caused.

You can now find this statement officially on our website "

Well, at least they had the decency to eat some crow and publically apologize. Still, what of the trans women who pass really well? They probably wouldn't of had any problems so in a way it was also a beauty contest. Look good and you're in? Not all of us can look like a Miss Universe!

Love,
Clare

Quote from: TG CLare on December 18, 2015, 12:17:47 PM
They probably wouldn't of had any problems so in a way it was also a beauty contest. Look good and you're in? Not all of us can look like a Miss Universe!

This remind me of Caitlyn's words "trans women shouldn't look like men in dresses", I guess a lot of people think the same way ....

Quote from: mzaomz on December 18, 2015, 12:25:49 PM


This remind me of Caitlyn's words "trans women shouldn't look like men in dresses", I guess a lot of people think the same way ....

To be fair, that was the editors choice for a headline. What Caitlyn said was:

"If you're out there and, to be honest with you, if you look like a man in a dress, it makes people uncomfortable"

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 18, 2015, 02:41:34 PM
To be fair, that was the editors choice for a headline. What Caitlyn said was:

"If you're out there and, to be honest with you, if you look like a man in a dress, it makes people uncomfortable"

...and she did later apologize for saying that too.

Yes, thanks for adding that.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn