Susan's Place Transgender Resources

...and it was really weird.

Earlier last week I had arrived at a bus station and was waiting for my friend to get me. So as I stood outside the station, this guy was sitting next to me and just looks me up and down and asks something like 'Do you find it hard being trans?' ... I was just stunned, because that's the first time anyone's even noticed I was trans without my pointing it out. In fact, there have been times I've come out to people and they thought I wanted to become a guy... So for this guy to just instantly clock me like that, and then have the audacity to just say that right off like he was absolutely certain, just had me floored. He was nice enough, says he supports trans people, and didn't want to offend. Said it was my chest that gave me away? Like it wasn't quite proportional to the rest of me? Ugh... seemed way too flimsy an excuse to call me out like he did. And then he asked if I was going to have 'the surgery'.. I'm like 'Welll my genitals aren't any of your business. It's not like I'd come up to you and ask you how big your dick was..' and he said I was right and apologized, saying 'Well now I know that's offensive to trans people'. ::) Then he asked a bunch more questions over the next 10 minutes.. I tried being educational, even though he was a bit annoying, and kept apologizing for it. It also made me uncomfortable that he was going on about this stuff with people walking by, and not even trying to keep it down. And then there were times where I was veering away from his line of questioning because it felt like he was still trying to figure out what was going on in my pants.. Some people can be so inconsiderate, and just goes to show how freakin' alien we can be to cis folks. But yeah, the whole situation really bothered me. :/

I find that it's inevitable that I'm clocked now and then. I usually how they knew, and the answer tends to be something like "I just knew. I'm good at spotting it." I think there may be things about my body shape that are atypical enough for a female that people pick up on it.

Alas, sensitivity has not been doled out evenly. Some people have a generous share but it seems that this gentleman is a bit deficient. It's not much of a consolation, but hopefully you set him straight, so the next trans person he clocks doesn't have it quite as bad.

Hugs.

This person said he support trans people.. he could be one in the closet too. I've read  about trans stuff online for about 10 year before deciding to do my transition . I am just pointing that he must have read a lot about the thing to be able to "clock" you like that.  Remember that even cis are getting read wrong sometimes you are pretty i am envious of you and you have nothing to be concerned of .  ;)

The best people at picking trans people from a crowd are those who are trans themselves or those who work with trans people (therapists, etc)/have a lot of connection (friends, family, colleagues). But it has limits. I consider myself pretty good at trans spotting (see what I did there?) but even I can be really, really wrong...either not picking someone who is trans or thinking someone who is cis is trans. Regardless I never ask them. That guy just sounds like a rude jerk, it was none of his business and if he was really supportive of trans people he'd know that making that kind of assumption or comment in public to a person is simply wrong.

Yeah, I notice that too, most people are kind of oblivious to someone being trans either because they have no experience with trans people or what the word even means, or because some people don't really "people-watch" or look closely at others in public, but there's always some people who do look close and then there's the ones who can't help but open their mouth about it. I think maybe because the ones who do stare or examine other people are generally not bothered if they are doing it, not bothered about being vocal in public and asking personal questions too... maybe oblivious to their own forwardness or forcefulness.   

There's probably gonna be that 1 in 100 people who do this and give you a surprise even if you pass well. I'm expecting it to happen a lot more often to me.

I got clocked by 6 guys the other night at a bar n they all asked if I had the surgery n I said no n they all said dam n I said why u ask n they said cause we wanted to hav sex with u. Some people just know Wat to look for.... Dosnt mean u look less of a woman cause these guys told me I looked complete woman and a hot one at that, but my shoulders Made them wonder n my Adam's apple confirmed it.. Needless to say they Gave me acid later that night n tried to take me home.

Sorry you had to endure all of that, sounds super crappy :(

I always wonder how I would react if I found myself in a similar situation. I think I'd just ignore the person honestly.

First of all Ashey, hugs.

In my opinion, even the most passable girl can be clocked because there's always that one person that can just see right through us.

I think you handled yourself pretty well and I think it's none of his business asking those questions. I admire your class and grace handling that situation.

Be well and chin up lady, you are beautiful.

April xo

Quote from: archlord on December 27, 2015, 03:35:13 PM
This person said he support trans people.. he could be one in the closet too. I've read  about trans stuff online for about 10 year before deciding to do my transition . I am just pointing that he must have read a lot about the thing to be able to "clock" you like that.  Remember that even cis are getting read wrong sometimes you are pretty i am envious of you and you have nothing to be concerned of .  ;)

There was something off about him.. but I don't think it was that. I'd be more inclined to say he was gay. But then, he could also be umm 'inclined' towards our kind, and maybe that's how he noticed.

Quote from: Angélique LaCava on December 27, 2015, 04:32:04 PM
I got clocked by 6 guys the other night at a bar n they all asked if I had the surgery n I said no n they all said dam n I said why u ask n they said cause we wanted to hav sex with u. Some people just know Wat to look for.... Dosnt mean u look less of a woman cause these guys told me I looked complete woman and a hot one at that, but my shoulders Made them wonder n my Adam's apple confirmed it.. Needless to say they Gave me acid later that night n tried to take me home.

Yeah, I mean, if you're pretty you're pretty, and that seems to win out. I've had guys disappointed that I'm pre-op but they keep talking to me and their desire overrides that initial disappointment or discomfort. And of course sometimes just being 'exotic' or 'unique' makes them super interested, even without specifically fetishizing. Oh and he did comment on my adam's apple a few times though, noting it was hardly there. He was pretty amazed by that... I felt like I was being examined when he kept looking at my neck. >_>

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on December 27, 2015, 05:35:27 PM
Sorry you had to endure all of that, sounds super crappy :(

I always wonder how I would react if I found myself in a similar situation. I think I'd just ignore the person honestly.

I was trying to keep my composure, and I do try to educate in situations like this, but this is usually online or to someone I purposefully told, not someone who approached me, so it was rather unsettling which is what made me uncomfortable the most.

Anyway, it's just a bit disheartening that it happened. I know I'm pretty and passable, heck he even said all that.. I guess after two years I've let my guard down and become complacent, so this really blindsided me. I didn't expect it to happen. Just makes me a bit more paranoid now, and makes me wonder how many others 'know' but haven't approached me. But then I think about the people who I've told and couldn't believe it. Idk, maybe that still puts me in the cis range since even some cis women occasionally get 'clocked' too, only difference being his assumption happened to be right. Ehh, just one incident though. I will try to calm down and forget about it, lol.

Quote from: Ashey on December 27, 2015, 06:45:11 PM
There was something off about him.. but I don't think it was that. I'd be more inclined to say he was gay. But then, he could also be umm 'inclined' towards our kind, and maybe that's how he noticed.

Yeah, I mean, if you're pretty you're pretty, and that seems to win out. I've had guys disappointed that I'm pre-op but they keep talking to me and their desire overrides that initial disappointment or discomfort. And of course sometimes just being 'exotic' or 'unique' makes them super interested, even without specifically fetishizing. Oh and he did comment on my adam's apple a few times though, noting it was hardly there. He was pretty amazed by that... I felt like I was being examined when he kept looking at my neck. >_>

I was trying to keep my composure, and I do try to educate in situations like this, but this is usually online or to someone I purposefully told, not someone who approached me, so it was rather unsettling which is what made me uncomfortable the most.

Anyway, it's just a bit disheartening that it happened. I know I'm pretty and passable, heck he even said all that.. I guess after two years I've let my guard down and become complacent, so this really blindsided me. I didn't expect it to happen. Just makes me a bit more paranoid now, and makes me wonder how many others 'know' but haven't approached me. But then I think about the people who I've told and couldn't believe it. Idk, maybe that still puts me in the cis range since even some cis women occasionally get 'clocked' too, only difference being his assumption happened to be right. Ehh, just one incident though. I will try to calm down and forget about it, lol.

I'm still talkin to 1 of the 6 guys n I told him I didn't think I was so obvious and he said your not obvious but u would be surprised at what people notice when they look you over 100 times. It was the first time someone actually said they knew without someone telling them and honestly don't care anymore cause even if I get clocked atleast guys find me pretty/hot. I've seen many hot transgenders who r obvious transgenders.

Quote from: Ashey on December 27, 2015, 06:45:11 PM
There was something off about him.. but I don't think it was that. I'd be more inclined to say he was gay. But then, he could also be umm 'inclined' towards our kind, and maybe that's how he noticed.

Yeah, I mean, if you're pretty you're pretty, and that seems to win out. I've had guys disappointed that I'm pre-op but they keep talking to me and their desire overrides that initial disappointment or discomfort. And of course sometimes just being 'exotic' or 'unique' makes them super interested, even without specifically fetishizing. Oh and he did comment on my adam's apple a few times though, noting it was hardly there. He was pretty amazed by that... I felt like I was being examined when he kept looking at my neck. >_>

I was trying to keep my composure, and I do try to educate in situations like this, but this is usually online or to someone I purposefully told, not someone who approached me, so it was rather unsettling which is what made me uncomfortable the most.

Anyway, it's just a bit disheartening that it happened. I know I'm pretty and passable, heck he even said all that.. I guess after two years I've let my guard down and become complacent, so this really blindsided me. I didn't expect it to happen. Just makes me a bit more paranoid now, and makes me wonder how many others 'know' but haven't approached me. But then I think about the people who I've told and couldn't believe it. Idk, maybe that still puts me in the cis range since even some cis women occasionally get 'clocked' too, only difference being his assumption happened to be right. Ehh, just one incident though. I will try to calm down and forget about it, lol.

I would of been uncomfy too. I don't handle confrontration well at all, triggers anxiety ;_;

I think the same thing "pretty and passable" but I always wonder who can tell? I get a lot of the same omg no way thing too, my new psych did it to me, that was weird. In public walking around, I sometimes hear convos about trans people. I'm just like did they clock me :o  lololol

Quote from: Ashey on December 27, 2015, 06:45:11 PM
Ehh, just one incident though. I will try to calm down and forget about it, lol.

That's all you can do really, otherwise it will eat you up. Just the other day at a local taco bar I had a young woman (presumably from India*) call me sir when she served me. I glared at her and said "Excuse me? What did you say?" she stammered and corrected herself calling me "madam", but I was pretty annoyed - in part because I felt there was nothing I was wearing that didn't identify me as female (plus, y'know, boobs!!) and because I had been feeling pretty good with myself right up until that very moment. I then asked "what is wrong with you?" - like I said, I was really annoyed, angry even. She was very flustered. I knew I was being a bit unfair on her but my brain had snapped.

I don't know if it was a language thing (I hear migrant people from India referring to doors as "gates" sometimes so I can only guess they get their "similar" words mixed up if they're not great at English. I also notice that if I am going to be misgendered it is almost always by migrant Asian or Indian people... is it a language thing? Is it a cultural thing (a tall person "must be masculine" so call them "sir" or "he" regardless of how they look). Anyway, sorry, rant over. It took me a day or so to calm down after that - it really bruises the ego and confidence when it happens. Like you, it really blindsided me. But yeah, just need to move on and chalk it up to "experience".

Quote...since even some cis women occasionally get 'clocked' too...

And it's often even more unsettling for them too.

*Yes, in Australia we often have people from India, Asia, Africa, wherever, working in all sorts of international cuisine outlets that you would never expect... even taco bars! It's rather awesome really.

Quote from: Ashey on December 27, 2015, 03:24:09 PM
And then he asked if I was going to have 'the surgery'.. I'm like 'Welll my genitals aren't any of your business. It's not like I'd come up to you and ask you how big your dick was..' and he said I was right and apologized, saying 'Well now I know that's offensive to trans people'. ::)

Yes. A few of my close friends also say like that. I educate them that it is a very rude question, and they immediately apologize and understand it. Yes. Education is important, but here in my country, no such thing exists.

barbie~~

Hi Girls

I'm lucky so far as I haven't had that, That I know of being clocked. But seriously I really think a lot of it is state of mind. I would have not told that guy I was a Trans it is none of his business. and he could take a hike. I would have ask him to mind his own business and walked away. I wouldn't talk to anyone like that, what a Pervert.

Just my opinion
Hugs
Lyndsey

Honestly I don't know what I'd do if I was clocked hard like that at this stage of my transition. I'd probably cry.

Or I'd just brush it off and move on.

Hope it never happens to me and I hope it doesn't happen to you again.

At least you're OK and he wasn't violent.

Quote from: Ms Grace on December 27, 2015, 07:08:42 PM
That's all you can do really, otherwise it will eat you up. Just the other day at a local taco bar I had a young woman (presumably from India*) call me sir when she served me. I glared at her and said "Excuse me? What did you say?" she stammered and corrected herself calling me "madam", but I was pretty annoyed - in part because I felt there was nothing I was wearing that didn't identify me as female (plus, y'know, boobs!!) and because I had been feeling pretty good with myself right up until that very moment. I then asked "what is wrong with you?" - like I said, I was really annoyed, angry even. She was very flustered. I knew I was being a bit unfair on her but my brain had snapped.

I don't know if it was a language thing (I hear migrant people from India referring to doors as "gates" sometimes so I can only guess they get their "similar" words mixed up if they're not great at English. I also notice that if I am going to be misgendered it is almost always by migrant Asian or Indian people... is it a language thing? Is it a cultural thing (a tall person "must be masculine" so call them "sir" or "he" regardless of how they look). Anyway, sorry, rant over. It took me a day or so to calm down after that - it really bruises the ego and confidence when it happens. Like you, it really blindsided me. But yeah, just need to move on and chalk it up to "experience".

And it's often even more unsettling for them too.

*Yes, in Australia we often have people from India, Asia, Africa, wherever, working in all sorts of international cuisine outlets that you would never expect... even taco bars! It's rather awesome really.

They definitely should know the difference between sir and miss/ma'am. She probably slipped or was slightly unsure and testing the waters.

How you dealt with it is 100% perfect.

Oh, and we have people from all over the world too here, even some from Australia. :)

A note about boobs: I dunno about them being a strong gender marker. I mean they kind of are, but for some people they really don't take them into account.

It's an inquisition! Trans people are in a lot of people's views right now, and I think that some people are just looking really hard, and often questioning whether or not a lot of women they see are trans, for the slightest reason.

Recently I was visiting my mother when her and her husband said that they thought that Michelle Obama was trans, and that the president was actually gay. I at first tried to tell them how crazy that was, but after them naming masculine features, and saying obnoxious things, and continually calling her a "man" (which 1, even if she was trans, would be inappriopriate, and untrue, and 2, was indicative of a witch hunt in which to delegitimize and slander Obama, with trans people as the vehicle), so I told them that they were beginning to piss me off, and I'd prefer to change the subject. I later found out that this is nonsense they probably heard from that little fearmongering lunatic Alex Jones.

Point being, that people may be hyper aware, or looking, and getting "clocked" may have simply been completely chance, and nothing at all to actually do with any of your features or presentation, but just a hyper awareness, or paranoia.

One of the reasons I've read for why a lot of stealth trans people are not in favor of a lot of trans publicity and education is because they feared just this, a hyper awareness, or witch hunt. Whereas, without much visibility, people tend to take presentation for granted without much scrutiny, unless of course one is highly obvious.

Quote from: Elsa Delyth on December 27, 2015, 10:21:44 PM
It's an inquisition! Trans people are in a lot of people's views right now, and I think that some people are just looking really hard, and often questioning whether or not a lot of women they see are trans, for the slightest reason.

Recently I was visiting my mother when her and her husband said that they thought that Michelle Obama was trans, and that the president was actually gay. I at first tried to tell them how crazy that was, but after them naming masculine features, and saying obnoxious things, and continually calling her a "man" (which 1, even if she was trans, would be inappriopriate, and untrue, and 2, was indicative of a witch hunt in which to delegitimize and slander Obama, with trans people as the vehicle), so I told them that they were beginning to piss me off, and I'd prefer to change the subject. I later found out that this is nonsense they probably heard from that little fearmongering lunatic Alex Jones.

Point being, that people may be hyper aware, or looking, and getting "clocked" may have simply been completely chance, and nothing at all to actually do with any of your features or presentation, but just a hyper awareness, or paranoia.

One of the reasons I've read for why a lot of stealth trans people are not in favor of a lot of trans publicity and education is because they feared just this, a hyper awareness, or witch hunt. Whereas, without much visibility, people tend to take presentation for granted without much scrutiny, unless of course one is highly obvious.

Hi Elsa
I have to say that your post had me on the floor laughing OMG too funny! but in fact so true. I wish that all the trans people would just remember state of mind if you are a women than you are and if you are a man then you are no questions about it have no fear and don't be paranoid you will sail threw like the wind and know one will clock you.

Hugs Lyndsey

Quote from: Elsa Delyth on December 27, 2015, 10:21:44 PM

Recently I was visiting my mother when her and her husband said that they thought that Michelle Obama was trans, and that the president was actually gay. I at first tried to tell them how crazy that was, but after them naming masculine features, and saying obnoxious things, and continually calling her a "man" (which 1, even if she was trans, would be inappriopriate, and untrue, and 2, was indicative of a witch hunt in which to delegitimize and slander Obama, with trans people as the vehicle), so I told them that they were beginning to piss me off, and I'd prefer to change the subject. I later found out that this is nonsense they probably heard from that little fearmongering lunatic Alex Jones.

That has been around since forever and it has nothing to do with recent trans visibility or even Alex Jones. If anything it's thinly veiled racism and body shaming since African Americans in general are slightly more athletic naturally and Michelle Obama has a lean athletic build because she keeps fit. Serena Williams gets body shamed all the time too as she is a muscular athlete. I have my reasons for not liking the FLOTUS but I have no reason to believe she isn't who she says she is. Not that it would matter if she was trans anyway.

Quote
One of the reasons I've read for why a lot of stealth trans people are not in favor of a lot of trans publicity and education is because they feared just this, a hyper awareness, or witch hunt. Whereas, without much visibility, people tend to take presentation for granted without much scrutiny, unless of course one is highly obvious.

I must admit I'm not really happy about how it all blew up with Caitlyn Jenner in particular being very open. Now everyone compares every trans person to her. I've been compared a few times. Thankfully in my situation things settled down and nobody brings up me being trans anymore.

Well, I said that this is where I thought that my mom heard it, I know that he didn't come up with it himself, and I didn't realize that Michelle Obama had been famous forever.

It is untrue, and racist itself to suggest that African Americans are more athletic generally than other races, and ironically enough, those that identify as African American are the demographic least likely to believe this myth, according to polls. I say "self-identified", because "race" isn't actually a scientific classification, based on genetics, or relatedness, but it a superficial, archaic prejudice infused cultural artifact. There are some populations in African more closely genetically related to Europeans than they are to other groups in African, yet they'd all be considered "African", and if living in American "black", or "African American". There are a number of reasons why "races" are vague, unscientific classification, more reducible to culture and geography than genes, but I think that's sufficient.

I don't deny that it has something to do with racism as well, it almost certainly was. I was more just focusing on my own experiences, and people around me, and why I thought that they would find this attention grabbing, and relevant at this time, rather than forever ago.

I don't like how my family tends to be all respectful, and seemingly supportive to my face and about me, but then when talking about someone like Jenner, they are quite the opposite, refusing to acknowledge her identity, criticizing her looks, and bringing up this Michelle Obama thing... the passive aggression I deal with... lol.

I just saw something of a silver lining to the topic of Michelle, in that they were basically point blank telling me that they can't clock trans people, and are perhaps just as likely to accuse a cis-person as a trans person, though, at the same time, feel like it's my fault that they're even looking, regardless of a lack of actual discernment.

Gosh, I would have been floored by that. I had something like that happen two years ago when I was just misgendered by someone constantly. It was dark and probably he did not see me properly and my voice gave this impression. Afterwards people tried to be nice - tell me that I am still a woman and that they congratulate me for being true to myself and such stuff, but I was totally floored. This was what eventually lead me to go for voice surgery actually.
But I guess this can always happen :'( - Some things about our bodies are not in the norm - ever, and some people have an eye for this, just like some people have that "gaydar" and can spot gay people right away... I just would wish they would not wave this around like they have done something great. For many of those it seems however that this is so obvious (because it is to them), that everyone else must see that too and automatically assume that everyone else knows this as well, so they just think its an open topic. I had this happen with a friend of mine who "knew" according to his words right away when we met. And basically he just assumed that everyone else knows this as well. So he just talked to people who did not know yet about this and they were surprised, and so the "news" spread into my circle of friends, involuntarily making me sort of an "out as trans" person there, which I certainly did not intend.

I personally wouldn't peg them as trans simply because they brought it up. I've spotted a few people that I knew were trans over the years, but I've never actually said anything to them about it. I mean, how would I feel if some random person came up to me and told me I didn't pass? Would I have any idea that they were trans too? I doubt it, because I'd be so focused on where I went wrong.

Quote from: Elsa Delyth on December 28, 2015, 05:47:27 AM
It is untrue, and racist itself to suggest that African Americans are more athletic generally than other races,

I'm not going to get into the weeds about the race issue. Suffice to say, we agree to disagree.

QuoteI don't like how my family tends to be all respectful, and seemingly supportive to my face and about me, but then when talking about someone like Jenner, they are quite the opposite, refusing to acknowledge her identity, criticizing her looks, and bringing up this Michelle Obama thing... the passive aggression I deal with... lol.

I have a different problem. Many of my more recent friends (in real life, not online, so they see me and interact with me) simply do not know I am trans. As a result they say nasty things about Caitlyn Jenner and transgender people to me or in a group and I basically have to bite my tongue. But otherwise they are nice people and I am hoping I can convince them that trans people really aren't as bad as they think, because one of their best friends is trans and the stereotype is just that, a stereotype.

Ugh as someone who's mostly stealth, I'd freak out about that so I don't blame you. You handled it well but ugh.

I may have stood up and walked away or something if it were me but I'm kinda done being 'educational' at this point....esp if he couldn't even keep his voice down.

I've gotten asked if I was a man or woman when I've been dressed up in costume at comicons.....that's been frustrating. Like why would you ever ask someone that??? I've basically answered "woman" and left it at that when asked. (as I run off and cry lol)

I attribute it to the many 'crossplays' that happen when it comes to that kind of thing and I'm putting myself out there by wearing any wigs frankly. But it's just how it goes I guess.

Quote from: iKate on December 28, 2015, 10:02:04 AM
I have a different problem. Many of my more recent friends (in real life, not online, so they see me and interact with me) simply do not know I am trans. As a result they say nasty things about Caitlyn Jenner and transgender people to me or in a group and I basically have to bite my tongue. But otherwise they are nice people and I am hoping I can convince them that trans people really aren't as bad as they think, because one of their best friends is trans and the stereotype is just that, a stereotype.

I get some of that as well and I do correct people when I can (if I feel like I can do so w/o outing myself anyway). Thankfully most of my friend circles are pretty liberal.

Quote from: Emileeeee on December 28, 2015, 09:23:24 AM
I personally wouldn't peg them as trans simply because they brought it up. I've spotted a few people that I knew were trans over the years, but I've never actually said anything to them about it. I mean, how would I feel if some random person came up to me and told me I didn't pass? Would I have any idea that they were trans too? I doubt it, because I'd be so focused on where I went wrong.

I agree with this 100%. I've seen some girls I thought could be (or probably are) trans and I would never in my life walk up to them and start talking to them about it.....because i wouldn't want that done to me.

I wouldn't let it bother you. Besides being trans myself , I worked in Boys Town in Chicago for a long time and consider myself pretty good at clocking even though I've made mistakes. I know for my face there are certain angles that give me away. My left side is my mothers and my  right side is my fathers.

Quote from: Debra on December 28, 2015, 11:49:17 AM
I get some of that as well and I do correct people when I can (if I feel like I can do so w/o outing myself anyway). Thankfully most of my friend circles are pretty liberal.

Hi All
As Debra has said I myself hang around with a lot of my friends and work friends that have no idea that I'm trans. It can be very tough when you hear them start talking about that subject and bashing us who are trans. I would love to at time stand up in front of them and say, me one of your best friend I'm trans. I think knowing them that they would think I am just joking around with them. I can't do that as my job is working for the DA's office as a prosecutor. Even one of the judges has asked me out to dinner. I know all about him from my friends as he is married and a player.
I would never want to be outed in my job as it would make my job very difficult. But it is very interesting to find out how many funny things go on with your friend when they think that you are cis like them. WOW the conversations can get crazy. I will never ever let anyone in on my situation that absolutely does not have to know. Bottom line.

Hug's Lyndsey

Quote from: Debra on December 28, 2015, 11:49:17 AM
I get some of that as well and I do correct people when I can (if I feel like I can do so w/o outing myself anyway). Thankfully most of my friend circles are pretty liberal.

Thankfully most of mine are libertarian/conservative. :)

You all are lucky.  Most of mine at work are hard right wing Christians.


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I don't know if it was a language thing (I hear migrant people from India referring to doors as "gates" sometimes so I can only guess they get their "similar" words mixed up if they're not great at English.

Hi Grace,It often is a language thing where English is a second language.I have a close Turkish friend who just misgenders everyone.She is a professional with an MBA!! This sort of applies to using he or she where their native tongue just uses the equivalent of they(Bengali definitely and Hindi maybe).However Sir is a bit more of a certain use and my partner(who is Bengali) thinks that the young lady may well have misgendered you.It's one of those things about being trans.It may not happen very often but when it does it can be quite upsetting.

Quote from: vickym on December 28, 2015, 01:38:29 PM

I don't know if it was a language thing (I hear migrant people from India referring to doors as "gates" sometimes so I can only guess they get their "similar" words mixed up if they're not great at English.

Hi Grace,It often is a language thing where English is a second language.I have a close Turkish friend who just misgenders everyone.She is a professional with an MBA!! This sort of applies to using he or she where their native tongue just uses the equivalent of they(Bengali definitely and Hindi maybe).However Sir is a bit more of a certain use and my partner(who is Bengali) thinks that the young lady may well have misgendered you.It's one of those things about being trans.It may not happen very often but when it does it can be quite upsetting.

Indians do know English though, and quite well. It's almost like an official language there. That's what British occupation will do.

I got asked by kids at times if I was a man or a woman. Kids are rather open about this and where adults bite their tongues, kids don't. I usually tell that I am a woman there (feeling all awkward about the situation though of course). Whats most frustrating is if kids then ask again or insist on the other pronoun. Argh - especially if adults are around who then start to stare at me to find out if there may be some truth to the kids words...
Usually I tried to get at least the most information out of the situation about what is still off about me. And since 90% of the answers were that is my voice, I had VFS now and hope those incidents now will be less - and hopefully more manageable if they occur...

Quote from: Ashey on December 27, 2015, 03:24:09 PM
...and it was really weird.

Earlier last week I had arrived at a bus station and was waiting for my friend to get me. So as I stood outside the station, this guy was sitting next to me and just looks me up and down and asks something like 'Do you find it hard being trans?' ... I was just stunned, because that's the first time anyone's even noticed I was trans without my pointing it out. In fact, there have been times I've come out to people and they thought I wanted to become a guy... So for this guy to just instantly clock me like that, and then have the audacity to just say that right off like he was absolutely certain, just had me floored. He was nice enough, says he supports trans people, and didn't want to offend. Said it was my chest that gave me away? Like it wasn't quite proportional to the rest of me? Ugh... seemed way too flimsy an excuse to call me out like he did. And then he asked if I was going to have 'the surgery'.. I'm like 'Welll my genitals aren't any of your business. It's not like I'd come up to you and ask you how big your dick was..' and he said I was right and apologized, saying 'Well now I know that's offensive to trans people'. ::) Then he asked a bunch more questions over the next 10 minutes.. I tried being educational, even though he was a bit annoying, and kept apologizing for it. It also made me uncomfortable that he was going on about this stuff with people walking by, and not even trying to keep it down. And then there were times where I was veering away from his line of questioning because it felt like he was still trying to figure out what was going on in my pants.. Some people can be so inconsiderate, and just goes to show how freakin' alien we can be to cis folks. But yeah, the whole situation really bothered me. :/

And rightfully so. Wow, what a piece of some word I can't type out, but WOW. Rude beyond words -- DISGUSTING. Does he find it difficult coping with his obvious over-infatuation with attractive trans women?? Like, what the bleep, dude.

Anyway, I have some words that may help you a bit. First of all, I think that passing trans women (like yourself) even have certain features about them that might be specific to the trans-woman community, but that aren't necessarily even masculine. Sort of like an ethnicity or a culture, i suppose. For example, I am tall (5 ft. 9 or 10), and am very lithe (35-27-38), and this is common among trans women who have not had surgeries to augment their curvatures. Is this masculine, however? No, not at all, but that didn't stop some obnoxious people several months ago from inquiring whether I'm secretly a man (pretty much to my face). It seems counterintuitive on their part given that cis women would die to have my build, but it stems from people being intrusive and needing someone to talk about, as was the case with this waste who pried at your way of life incessantly.

Moreover, it seems like so many of us have defined (not sharp, but defined) faces, like what is seen in high fashion, and so, I can almost promise that someone who is obnoxious enough could ask me as well if I'm trans simply because I'm slender and have a defined face. In fact, I've gotten looks before that remind me that I look kind of different for a woman, such as from little kids, etc.

But, I'm undeniably gorgeous, and no one can even call me "he" (even whenever they want to); this is what I've learned to embrace. It speaks to how feminine I am despite bearing features stereotypical to a passing trans woman. Sounds like I have the edge, in fact, since men always have their eyes on me, as opposed to mainstream women (who notoriously give me death-glares haha).

Also -- and this is quite pertinent -- how far have you developed your voice into the feminine range? When I worked among a bunch of obnoxious blue collar people (something I'm far removed from) several months ago, I passed as female,  but I hadn't developed my voice. Occasionally, I'd get bullied or targeted by intrusive people, and there was NOTHING I could do to defend myself through use of words. I just had to stand there and take it. Yet, now, I have developed my voice so that it's higher than that of the average cis woman (and on command), and as such, I can totally just shut some rude person down without a problem. Like, that one time I was ordering food from a restaurant, and the cashier -- who I used to date -- called me "he" to be rude, and I verbally annihilated her, prompting people to laugh at her.

I guess it's just one of many avenues through which I've learned to embrace my appearance.

Lastly, I'm regarded as being pretty attractive for being trans (or even for being cis), and I have even experienced some of the rudest nonsense conceivable. One time, I was on a dating site, and normally I'd only date men located in my big city because I've dealt with enough country folk to scream. However, there was this small-town guy who found me on there, and he was struck beyond words by my beauty, not knowing that I'm trans (no one did, in fact). He begged me to come down to where he lives over and over so that he could say he scored a 10 (sadly), and he just wouldn't leave me alone.

Finally, knowing that I once worked at the factory he was then working at, I told him about this. He asked what my job was, and I told him -- shedding light on nothing else about myself. Because he's insecure, he just blatantly asked me, "Are you secretly a man?" I laughed it off and told him that that woman he must be referring to from the factory wasn't me. So, he kept hitting on me, and I got screenshots of it because I knew who he was. Finally, I told him that that was me several months ago, and he blocked me in every way possible, pretty much with his tail between his legs.

So, yeah, people like that probably just have an unhealthy infatuation with trans women. You can always message me, and I'll be here to listen.

Sincerely,
Ally

Quote from: stephaniec on December 28, 2015, 12:04:40 PM
. . . I wouldn't let it bother you. Besides being trans myself , I worked in Boys Town in Chicago for a long time and consider myself pretty good at clocking even though I've made mistakes. . . .

I've always maintained a distinction in the wording I use.  If I perceive someone to be transgendered, I consider that I have "read" them.  "Reading" is purely internal on my part.  To me, "clocking" someone as transgendered means making some remark or indicating overtly that I have read her/him.  I try very hard never to "clock" anybody.

I think I'm pretty good at "reading" gender.  But I don't want to "clock" anybody.  That's the language distinction I have.  Do others agree?  Or is this just my own idiosyncrasy?

Quote from: itsApril on January 01, 2016, 05:29:03 PM
I've always maintained a distinction in the wording I use.  If I perceive someone to be transgendered, I consider that I have "read" them.  "Reading" is purely internal on my part.  To me, "clocking" someone as transgendered means making some remark or indicating overtly that I have read her/him.  I try very hard never to "clock" anybody.

I think I'm pretty good at "reading" gender.  But I don't want to "clock" anybody.  That's the language distinction I have.  Do others agree?  Or is this just my own idiosyncrasy?

I use clocking and reading interchangeably but I see what you mean.

Quote from: anjaq on January 01, 2016, 04:49:16 PM
I got asked by kids at times if I was a man or a woman. Kids are rather open about this and where adults bite their tongues, kids don't. I usually tell that I am a woman there (feeling all awkward about the situation though of course). Whats most frustrating is if kids then ask again or insist on the other pronoun. Argh - especially if adults are around who then start to stare at me to find out if there may be some truth to the kids words...
Usually I tried to get at least the most information out of the situation about what is still off about me. And since 90% of the answers were that is my voice, I had VFS now and hope those incidents now will be less - and hopefully more manageable if they occur...

I've only had one single incident of a kid clocking me and that was a friend's kid and they told the kid. Otherwise kids like to smile at me or sometimes I say hi and they say hi back. Moms would sometimes talk with me about parenting, kids in tow and all. The kids seem to be in their own world.

Hi All

Remember getting clocked is a state if mind If your are a women act like it As you will not get clocked.
If you are looking to get clocked by being paranoids you will!zA cis women dose not think of it why should you.

Lyndsey

Quote from: Lyndsey on January 01, 2016, 07:20:50 PM
Hi All

Remember getting clocked is a state if mind If your are a women act like it As you will not get clocked.
If you are looking to get clocked by being paranoids you will!zA cis women dose not think of it why should you.

Lyndsey

Yep, this. Be confident, make jokes, laugh with people. You will generally avoid being clocked.

Quote from: iKate on January 01, 2016, 07:24:56 PM
Yep, this. Be confident, make jokes, laugh with people. You will generally avoid being clocked.

Hi Katie

You are right that is why I never get clocked and if you need to play dumb even if you know. LOL

Lyndsey

I'm convinced that we have some trains equivalent to gaydar, and it goes both ways, ie to the transitioned and non-transitioned.

Years ago, on New Year's Eve, we met a woman who was speaking to my wife and I. She stated that she was trans and, despite my being entirely pre transition and us not mentioning anything, that I was too and that the sooner that I transitioned the better!

For somebody to clock you (who screams female from every pore) and then ask such questions (rude as they were) suggests to me somebody who is coming to terms with their own trans status

Interestingly, I think I "passed" better when I first transitioned in the 1990ies than I did in the 2010's - I am still not sure if in the long run the hormones did just not keep up with me ageing or if it is simply the greater awareness of people about trans issues.

Quote from: anjaq on January 02, 2016, 10:12:31 AM
Interestingly, I think I "passed" better when I first transitioned in the 1990ies than I did in the 2010's - I am still not sure if in the long run the hormones did just not keep up with me ageing or if it is simply the greater awareness of people about trans issues.

Hi Anjaq

It is a lot easier I think when you get older as not so many people are out to fine a older women that looks like she is 20. Also how you dress has a lot to do with how people will react. If you dress like a teen and you are 40 it won't be Pretty you will be way out of play and people will know. If you dress your age group you will win right away. Also My self I do not wear much for makeup. Just a little eyeliner and mascara. Try to look like all the cis women as they don't wear dress's every day ether. I wear a lot of skorts and shots in the summer and lots of jeans and dress pants in the winter. Also I'm proud of my age and do not think I look to bad. I'm 58 years young.

Hug's
Lyndsey

I think its so funny that people instantly judge someone based on their physical appearance. Without cosmetics how many trans persons would actually pass? Maybe a handful out of thousands. And guess what? Every woman I come across I think, "Hm, they could be trans."

I saw a beautiful young adult woman in the grocery store the other day and I swear we could have literally been identical twins when I was in my teens. Same frizzy and wavy hair, same color and all, same facial features and height. It was crazy. First thing I thought? She's trans. Then I just shook my head and meandered off. Right before that I was looking another gorgeous woman up and down thinking to myself that we had almost identical body types. Could she be trans? Nah.

There are all sorts of interesting variations and outliers amongst both genders. What I believe is defining and beautiful in one gender could be the opposite of what another would think. Its good to have confidence and to believe you're the cats meow, but don't think you're the end all, be all of what's representative of either gender. Simply love yourself and know that's all that matters.

Hi All

I think that like I said dress your age not in young teenage stuff. And I do not wear hardly any makeup if I wear it at all. I never get called out. Like I said it is mostly a state of mind. I do know that Kate agrees with me on that, and if you try to hard to look like a premadonna You will be called out. To much makeup is a big no in my book. Natural look is what works. Most women do not wear makeup all the time. I have three sisters that help me and make sure it is right.

Hug's
Lyndsey

Quote from: Mallory on January 02, 2016, 12:19:01 PM
I think its so funny that people instantly judge someone based on their physical appearance. Without cosmetics how many trans persons would actually pass? Maybe a handful out of thousands. And guess what? Every woman I come across I think, "Hm, they could be trans."

I think the makeup thing is overblown. I wear makeup for special occasions and when I feel like it. I don't really wear everyday but that is changing a bit. I pretty much consistently "pass" and I know it is a "pass" for sure based on various things, how people act and the things they say etc and sometimes just who they are.

I also had the same feeling about many cis women but over time I just don't care anymore.

Honestly gender is the last thing on my mind these days. Reaching that point will help you "pass" more than anything.

Quote from: iKate on January 02, 2016, 02:50:39 PM
I think the makeup thing is overblown. I wear makeup for special occasions and when I feel like it. I don't really wear everyday but that is changing a bit. I pretty much consistently "pass" and I know it is a "pass" for sure based on various things, how people act and the things they say etc and sometimes just who they are.

I also had the same feeling about many cis women but over time I just don't care anymore.

Honestly gender is the last thing on my mind these days. Reaching that point will help you "pass" more than anything.

Yes Kate
I agree with you completely. I don' even think about it at all anymore. I just do my thing and never get called out.

Lyndsey

Quote from: Lyndsey on January 02, 2016, 10:30:01 AM
It is a lot easier I think when you get older as not so many people are out to fine a older women that looks like she is 20. Also how you dress has a lot to do with how people will react. If you dress like a teen and you are 40 it won't be Pretty you will be way out of play and people will know. If you dress your age group you will win right away. Also My self I do not wear much for makeup. Just a little eyeliner and mascara. Try to look like all the cis women as they don't wear dress's very day ether.

Well, my experience was the opposite, that I passed better at a younger age then in the past years. I never really dressed up much or used makeup much. Not even back when I was younger, although I guess I did use more makeup then and had a bit more feminine clothes in my 20ies than later. Maybe that was part of the issue... I still passed 99% of the time even without all of this , but maybe it helps sometimes to dress up a bit. Funnily now, since I had the voice surgery and then lost a lot of weight, I am more confident ad for the first time in my life I do actually dress up a bit and wear skirts and dresses - I even had whole weeks now just wearing dresses and skirts and using some makeup - lol - not sure why now after all these years...

But i think increased trans awareness was biting me. Especially because of the voice...

Quote from: anjaq on January 02, 2016, 05:24:13 PM
Well, my experience was the opposite, that I passed better at a younger age then in the past years. I never really dressed up much or used makeup much. Not even back when I was younger, although I guess I did use more makeup then and had a bit more feminine clothes in my 20ies than later. Maybe that was part of the issue... I still passed 99% of the time even without all of this , but maybe it helps sometimes to dress up a bit. Funnily now, since I had the voice surgery and then lost a lot of weight, I am more confident ad for the first time in my life I do actually dress up a bit and wear skirts and dresses - I even had whole weeks now just wearing dresses and skirts and using some makeup - lol - not sure why now after all these years...

But i think increased trans awareness was biting me. Especially because of the voice...

Hi Anjaq

Yes I had voice surgery two time and I think It is over rated. You are far better off to just practice with your voice till you can get it right. But yes I wear dress and skirts a lot but mostly in the summer as I get cold very easy and I hate that. When I work at the court house. I have to get dressed up but I also have pants suits that I like very much. But if you think about it they do not make women's clothe very warm. even the winter stuff is fitted and not very warm.

Hug's
Lyndsey

Quote from: Lyndsey on January 02, 2016, 05:54:54 PM
Yes I had voice surgery two time and I think It is over rated. You are far better off to just practice with your voice till you can get it right.

For me personally, I cannot agree. Of course I did  both - training and surgery... but both together helped me to feel much more at ease with my voice and with myself overall. I think I actually held back when it comes to be more feminine in appearance and also behaviours because I thought people would judge me because of my voice. So I am quite happy that this changed now and I feel more able to allow myself more femininity :D

Quote
But yes I wear dress and skirts a lot but mostly in the summer as I get cold very easy and I hate that. When I work at the court house. I have to get dressed up but I also have pants suits that I like very much. But if you think about it they do not make women's clothe very warm. even the winter stuff is fitted and not very warm.

Thats because those evil patriarchic fashion overlords want us to feel cold and feeble and inferior  >:-)
lol - I think there are quite warm clothes to wear actually, but often they are not as good looking ;) - Or one has to resolve to such things as wearing leggins and a pair of jeans on top of that. But they make really nice warm winter jackets for women, thats nice.
I am beginning to find my style now and see how much more femininity I feel is good for me. Its kind of funny to be 41 now and starting to like these things - and not because I lived as a guy before - I did not do that for almost 2 decades - but just because I did not feel like it and most women in my age group and peer group did not do much in that respect either. Pants, Sneakers and various T-Shirts were the "uniform" for most ;)

Quote from: Lyndsey on January 02, 2016, 05:54:54 PM
Hi Anjaq

Yes I had voice surgery two time and I think It is over rated. You are far better off to just practice with your voice till you can get it right.

Maybe for you but for me it has made all the difference in the world. Being able to talk without thinking and laugh is invaluable.

But everyone has their own path.

Quote from: iKate on January 03, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
Maybe for you but for me it has made all the difference in the world. Being able to talk without thinking and laugh is invaluable.

But everyone has their own path.

I guess it often depends on the luck with the surgery. Some had bigger changes than others, so the effect it has varies as well. iKate had great changes in the voice, mine are more in the average, maybe and others report little or no change - so naturally the difference it makes in ones life depends on that...

Quote from: archlord on December 27, 2015, 03:35:13 PM
This person said he support trans people.. he could be one in the closet too. I've read  about trans stuff online for about 10 year before deciding to do my transition . I am just pointing that he must have read a lot about the thing to be able to "clock" you like that.

After seeing so many before and after pictures and videos I feel like I unintentionally clock some people that most wouldn't notice. I always keep it to myself though. No need to be rude.

I sometimes see people in the subway that I am sure are trans. I try to make eye contact sometimes - somehow I just want to be reassuring and smile to them, but I often wonder if they take this as a bad or good thing - I guess it depends if they recognize me as someone with a similar background or not...

Quote from: anjaq on January 04, 2016, 03:26:52 AM
I sometimes see people in the subway that I am sure are trans. I try to make eye contact sometimes - somehow I just want to be reassuring and smile to them, but I often wonder if they take this as a bad or good thing - I guess it depends if they recognize me as someone with a similar background or not...

Hi Anjaq

I have to say you are right with that. I not sure If I would even let them have a clue that I knew as I would not want them to feel uncomfortable.

Lyndsey

Quote from: Lyndsey on January 04, 2016, 02:42:40 PM
Hi Anjaq

I have to say you are right with that. I not sure If I would even let them have a clue that I knew as I would not want them to feel uncomfortable.

Lyndsey

I also agree. I think it's ok to make eye contact and express in an indirect way you feel connected, but of course never spontaneously bring up such thoughts of wondering if they are trans. I've had gay people ask me if I am gay before (not often, but it's happened), sort of interesting the different dynamic that goes on in the gay community.

I've been trying recently for the first time to figure out what my place on the trans spectrum and starting to thinking about transitioning or at the very least express my true self more.  There's something very interesting that has started to happen - I find myself in this new state (to me) with some people where we are (I think) subliminally relating as woman or androgynous to woman (or even woman to man) even though I'm certainly not otherwise presenting as anything other than a man.  I can't prove that I am right (unless I were to get up the nerve to ask someone whether they thought that was the case! ) but it sort of aligns with what you and anjaq are saying about a 6th sense.

Denali