Susan's Place Transgender Resources

1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?


(Based on the Terms of Service, in regards to this issue, I believe we can put forth our best argument, but we can not question any member's argument.)

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?

(1)  Nope.

(2)  The descriptions of God offered by all religions I have encountered are so improbable and/or self-contradictary and/or repellant as to be beyond rational belief.  Alternatively, definitions of God intended to avoid those objections (such as remote creator no longer involved with the universe, laws of nature, or cosmic being disconnected from material existence, etc.) end up being so vague or vaporous as to have no significance.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?


(Based on the Terms of Service, in regards to this issue, I believe we can put forth our best argument, but we can not question any member's argument.)

1) Does God exist?  Which one are you asking about.  If it's the one worshipped by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam then I don't know.  Even if he does though I don't care because he is personified evil proven by what he wrote in his book.  And his book does say that we as humans can judge good and evil.  It says that right up front.  Any being with as many genocides to his name as this one is evil.  We put them on trial for crimes against humanity and execute them.  And this so called God is worse because he killed his created children for what?  It was for disobedience.  What do we call parents who kill their children?  We call them criminals.  So, there you go.

But I do believe God exists, just not that imposter.

2) Why, or why not?  Because I believe I directly experienced the actual source, God, one time.  It felt otherworldly and unlike any other experience I have ever had.  But no, I can't prove it.



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1) I don't know

2) I try not to think about it too much, since it's something I cannot control one way or another. Although I try to have a scientific mind about life (even if I'm not quite smart enough to really participate there), I realize that faith is well outside of that. Faith is irrational, but not everything has to be rational. I can't prove or disprove the existence of a god and I don't need to. All I know is that if any god created this life for me, then it's not a god I want to believe in. Therefore it's not something I'm going to search for. I want nothing to do with it.

Quote from: Deborah on January 13, 2016, 06:47:21 PM
. . . I believe I directly experienced the actual source, God, one time.  It felt otherworldly and unlike any other experience I have ever had.  But no, I can't prove it.

Nobody can dispute the authenticity of what you really experienced.

 
3) It doesn't matter if god exists or not.

 

Whoo-boy, here I go again.

1) Maybe. I would accept the existence of a deity who was responsible for starting the Big Bang, except...

2) To my logic, and I've given this an awful lot of thought over the course of many decades, a deity who wanted to be worshipped would have defined who it is and its terms of devotion from the beginning of time, don't you think? That didn't happen, so we've had to suffer a bazillion different religions invented by men whose main purpose was social control.

Absolutely, without a doubt, there is a God. Look around. We are here. We are creations, and creations are created. I think the real question is: What is God? I personally don't think there is a man in the sky, or anything like that. I think God is a collective that cannot be contained into one description.

We are made in God's image. To me, this is absolutely true. God is creation, and we, as humans, have a natural desire to create (etc, etc)

I look at it this way: Either you exist, or you don't exist. Since I  exist, then something caused me to exist, otherwise I wouldn't exist. Very, very basically, to me, this means God could be a calculation, or any other variable or constant that could be imagined.

Ultimately, I don't think we will ever be able to understand the full extent of God.

yes, because for me having a consciousness only makes sense with an absolute consciousness .

1.  Yes.

2. The Bible tells me so, and His presence is manifested by the universe around us.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?

1) Yes God / God(s) exist.

2) I base this on my near death experiences. It was rather obvious even as a child. Later, when I was 31, I had a bad reaction to medicine and lay on the floor gasping for breath fighting to live and saw the same entity and was conforted. I will remember the words she said forever, "You will always be what you've always been."

Rather odd I think.

Ut oh! Now everyone is going to think that I am a nut job.

Quote from: ChasingAlice on January 14, 2016, 03:01:02 AM
Ut oh! Now everyone is going to think that I am a nut job.

I don't think so.  I once had a vivid dream of an old woman looking down at me.  She was the kind of woman that in popular culture might be described as a witch or an old hag.  But that's not the feeling I had.  I felt this was a woman (perhaps, my wife?) that I had known for many years, and that she was filled with sorrow.  As the dream went on, the scene hazed over and I lost sight of her.  The dream ended there.

If I believed in supernatural events, I might take this as a memory of an earlier lifetime - perhaps my own death, with my wife watching over my final moments.  But I don't believe in anything like that.  So I'm at a loss to explain the dream.  I've got to admit I can't account for it within my own frame of reference.

I don't think you're a nut job.  There's a lot we don't know.

Q1 - I don't believe there is any god/s

Q2 - I am the kind of person who believes in what she can see and touch and from what I have found, religion seems to be a man made thing anyway. As for if there is anything else out there... Then yes, because I have a big male ghost living in my unit. He does raise some questions.

Quote from: ChasingAlice on January 14, 2016, 03:01:02 AM
Ut oh! Now everyone is going to think that I am a nut job.

Nope.  My Mother had a near death experience that was similar.


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1)  Almost certainly not.  There is a faint possibility, but my odds of winning the lottery without buying a ticket are substantially better.  It's not likely enough to even pretend to worry about the possibility.   

2)  Putting aside the fact that a divine being actually complicates models of the universe, we can demonstrate how particular gods are plagiarized (Aten is very persistent in his later incarnations) while I think it's fair to say that if you have to steal huge chunks of somebody else's origins story (Adapa and Utnapishtim in particular get around) then you probably failed Godhood 101 and couldn't possibly have created a universe when you can't even manage an original story.  We can fairly easily prove most religions today are so derivative there is no realistic possibility of them being legitimate.  We can play whack-a-mole with other gods well beyond the point it's of any value, and I just don't have the patience to continue it indefinitely.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should also mention I have a problem with ritual cannibalism, so I'm actually quite relieved to know that the major religion in my area isn't real.   

 

Just for me the universe is an organized energy and that organization or fundamental law without which there would be only random particles chaotically bumping into each other with no other purpose than to bump into each other . That law that guides is my God.

Quote from: Colleen MIn the interest of full disclosure, I should also mention I have a problem with ritual cannibalism, so I'm actually quite relieved to know that the major religion in my area isn't real.   

Yes, I feel the same way about that, and about the fact that the religion in question has an instrument of torture as its main symbol. Ick!

1) Depends on the definition of God. Every specific God claim will have a specific answer. If we're talking about a tri-omni Judeo Christian style creator God... no, probably not.

2) Again, the answer turns on the specific God claim. For this tri-omni one, I say no because the God would be highly improbable given its complex nature. Also, the omni aspects are self contradictory and contradict the natural world.

From Shintoism (Japan) to Christianity (Middle East), all popular modern religions began in Asia. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam each trace their roots to the same nomad, Abraham. Yet sects of each are incapable of getting along within their own religion, much less with members of other religions. We live in a constant state of agitation over perceived wrongs that may have happened as much as 2,000 years ago.

For most, belief in a deity is a matter of choice. I would ask those who believe, in which specific religion and how did you chose it? I would argue that if one believes, that person's choice was likely made by parents, who used the threat of Hell (in whatever form your religion defines Hell) if you didn't do as you were told. As adults, adherents get the same message from religious Elders. That's the definition of social control.

"Marx viewed religion as a tool of social control used by the bourgeoisie to keep the proletariat content with an unequal status quo."(1) Can those of us who grew up with anti-communism ringing in our heads step back and analyze what Marx meant in light of modern times? Why do we let the "Elders" tell us, and those closest to us, what to think? How much pain and suffering have we as transpeople had to endure because of them?

I don't know if a Deity exists. I don't really care.



1) https://www.boundless.com/sociology/textbooks/boundless-sociology-textbook/religion-14/the-conflict-perspective-on-religion-107/religion-and-social-control-596-2095/ (https://www.boundless.com/sociology/textbooks/boundless-sociology-textbook/religion-14/the-conflict-perspective-on-religion-107/religion-and-social-control-596-2095/)

Quote from: diane 2606 on January 14, 2016, 08:30:44 PM
"Marx viewed religion as a tool of social control used by the bourgeoisie to keep the proletariat content with an unequal status quo."(1) Can those of us who grew up with anti-communism ringing in our heads step back and analyze what Marx meant in light of modern times? Why do we let the "Elders" tell us, and those closest to us, what to think? How much pain and suffering have we as transpeople had to endure because of them?

Marx made two interesting remarks about religion that are slightly different.

The better known one is that religion is the "opiate of the masses."  In other words, religion functions to cloud the thinking and dull the pain of the people caused by class oppression and injustice, and thereby prevent the people from mobilizing in their own interests.  Marx emphasized this particularly in regard to the bourgeoisie, the ruling class under capitalism, because that was what he was chiefly interested in during his historical era.  But his critique could certainly apply with equal force to other ruling classes of different times and different places (for instance, to slaveholders in the pre-Civil-War South, or to the aristocrats and bishops and absolute monarchs of old European society, or to the scribes and pharaohs of ancient Egypt.)  All of these ruling classes mobilized religion to deaden the thinking of the people and thereby maintain their dominance over society.

The other, lesser known, observation Marx made was that religion serves as the "heart of a heartless world."  In this aspect, religion serves to express the heartfelt aspirations of the people towards justice, charity, and kindness.  People living in a harsh and unjust world long for a system that promises order, meaning, and improvement in their conditions.  Lacking education and analytical tools to organize effective action towards these goals, people instead displace these goals into promises of peace, goodwill, and justice that will reign on earth at some remote time in the future, or in an imaginary afterlife.

What ties these two views together in Marx's thought is the fundamental proposition that religions are irrational, unscientific systems.  Religions are invented by people.  They are not revealed truths descending from gods.  To understand religions, Marx would say, you should study how they came to be, and also whose interests they serve in society.  Marx would say, don't look to irrational stories for guidance in improving your lives.  Instead, use logic, science, and reason to solve your problems, whether personal, or political, or social.

It's no accident that reactionary politicians make common cause with Bible-thumping religious bigots.  The bigots want to demonize unbelievers and "sinners," and the politicians want to divert the attention of the people from the real sources of their pain onto unpopular scapegoats, like Muslims, or immigrants, or racial minorities, or gays and lesbians, or (yes!) transgendered folks.  Marx would tell us, don't turn to religion.  Instead, turn to science, logic, reason, and organized action.

[April climbs down off her soapbox . . ]

Quote from: diane 2606 on January 14, 2016, 08:30:44 PM
That's the definition of social control.

Yeah, the social control aspects of religion are what drove me from it. I grew up in a religious family and I believed what they believed because that's what I was told to believe. Eventually I did figure out that I could think for myself as long as I didn't keep doing that. That's why, even if there is a slight possibility of a creator out there, I refuse to follow any organized religion. I am almost entirely sure that they are all just traditions passed down to control us and don't have the right idea of god, if there is one.

Quote from: itsApril on January 14, 2016, 11:31:38 PM
Marx made two interesting remarks about religion that are slightly different.

The better known one is that religion is the "opiate of the masses."  In other words, religion functions to cloud the thinking and dull the pain of the people caused by class oppression and injustice, and thereby prevent the people from mobilizing in their own interests.  Marx emphasized this particularly in regard to the bourgeoisie, the ruling class under capitalism, because that was what he was chiefly interested in during his historical era.  But his critique could certainly apply with equal force to other ruling classes of different times and different places (for instance, to slaveholders in the pre-Civil-War South, or to the aristocrats and bishops and absolute monarchs of old European society, or to the scribes and pharaohs of ancient Egypt.)  All of these ruling classes mobilized religion to deaden the thinking of the people and thereby maintain their dominance over society.

The other, lesser known, observation Marx made was that religion serves as the "heart of a heartless world."  In this aspect, religion serves to express the heartfelt aspirations of the people towards justice, charity, and kindness.  People living in a harsh and unjust world long for a system that promises order, meaning, and improvement in their conditions.  Lacking education and analytical tools to organize effective action towards these goals, people instead displace these goals into promises of peace, goodwill, and justice that will reign on earth at some remote time in the future, or in an imaginary afterlife.

What ties these two views together in Marx's thought is the fundamental proposition that religions are irrational, unscientific systems.  Religions are invented by people.  They are not revealed truths descending from gods.  To understand religions, Marx would say, you should study how they came to be, and also whose interests they serve in society.  Marx would say, don't look to irrational stories for guidance in improving your lives.  Instead, use logic, science, and reason to solve your problems, whether personal, or political, or social.

It's no accident that reactionary politicians make common cause with Bible-thumping religious bigots.  The bigots want to demonize unbelievers and "sinners," and the politicians want to divert the attention of the people from the real sources of their pain onto unpopular scapegoats, like Muslims, or immigrants, or racial minorities, or gays and lesbians, or (yes!) transgendered folks.  Marx would tell us, don't turn to religion.  Instead, turn to science, logic, reason, and organized action.

[April climbs down off her soapbox . . ]

Bravo!!!  :eusa_clap:

Quote from: Tamika Olivia on January 14, 2016, 07:48:35 PM
1) Depends on the definition of God. Every specific God claim will have a specific answer. If we're talking about a tri-omni Judeo Christian style creator God... no, probably not.

2) Again, the answer turns on the specific God claim. For this tri-omni one, I say no because the God would be highly improbable given its complex nature. Also, the omni aspects are self contradictory and contradict the natural world.

You could approach this subject from a deistic, and/or theistic position. However you'd like. 

Awesome, April. Can we make this required reading?

Quote from: autumn08 on January 15, 2016, 05:26:39 AM
You could approach this subject from a deistic, and/or theistic position. However you'd like.

Thing is, I don't really have a dog in the race. None of the god concepts I've met so far is something I believe in, or think any more likely than all the others. Picking one would feel arbitrary, and arguing against them all would take the rest of my life, because there are as many God concepts as there are people. Moreover, depending on how God is defined, the answer could be a resounding yes or no. If God is defined as Diet Coke, then yes God exists. If God is defined as a unicorn that lives in my basement, then he doesn't exist. About as far as I can get is "No God yet presented, that has the traditional 'personified' and 'all or near all powerful' elements of a classically defined God, is something I believe exists."

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?

What do you mean by "God," what are you referring to?

Quote from: Serverlan on January 15, 2016, 05:28:53 PM

What do you mean by "God," what are you referring to?

If you look at God from a deist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe. If you look at God from a theist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe, and God is an intervenor in the human world.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 15, 2016, 06:15:17 PM
If you look at God from a deist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe. If you look at God from a theist's perspective, God is the creator of the universe, and God is an intervenor in the human world.

But what is "God"?

God is the fundamental law governing existence.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 15, 2016, 07:00:45 PM

But what is "God"?

We can never know the objective basis of anything, only our subjective experience of it, which we then define using our culture. I do not know what causes my lack of experiencing God, but I know I am not experiencing God, because know the way my culture defines God.

To help you understand the question posed in my initial post though, try to approach it from the perspective of metaphysics, not epistemology.

God...the most powerful psychic in existence.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 15, 2016, 11:20:23 PM
We can never know the objective basis of anything, only our subjective experience of it, which we then define using our culture.

But what are the properties of "God" that we attempt have an objective experience of? That is, a referent, "God", has been proposed, yet no features or properties of this referent have been forwarded.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 15, 2016, 07:57:21 PM
God is the fundamental law governing existence.

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

Quote from: Serverlan on January 15, 2016, 11:48:49 PM

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

i don't know.
Why are there ghosts and poltergeists?
Why are some places haunted?
Why are there psychics? And why do police departments actually use them in the U.S. to help solve cases (yes this is real I worked in the department of corrections for awhile as a guard.) I have to mention that the anniversary days of executions can be very lively.

Does this prove that God exists? No. But life after death certainly exists. Hence my statement of God being the most powerful psychic in existence.

May the force be with you...and also with you. LOL

Quote from: ChasingAlice on January 16, 2016, 12:10:13 AM
i don't know.
Why are there ghosts and poltergeists?
Why are some places haunted?
Why are there psychics? And why do police departments actually use them in the U.S. to help solve cases (yes this is real I worked in the department of corrections for awhile as a guard.) I have to mention that the anniversary days of executions can be very lively.

Does this prove that God exists? No. But life after death certainly exists. Hence my statement of God being the most powerful psychic in existence.

I agree, your response doesn't prove that "God" exists (let alone what "God" is). Nor does it prove the existence of ghosts. I do agree that psychics exist, but they are less than useless for anything, unless it's performing their magic shows on television.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 15, 2016, 11:48:49 PM

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

standing on a planet in absolute nothingness enjoying delicious food and a warm sun instead of not having any existence except as as atom speeding along waiting to crash into another atom A law that gives us a platform to live on. You may not see that as God , but I do.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 15, 2016, 11:46:01 PM
But what are the properties of "God" that we attempt have an objective experience of? That is, a referent, "God", has been proposed, yet no features or properties of this referent have been forwarded.

The properties of God that a deist sees, are properties that are necessary for the universe to exist, such as the ones Stephanie and Nema proffer. The properties of God that a theist sees, are properties that are necessary to explain their experience, such as Deborah, King Malachite, and Alice proffer.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 15, 2016, 11:48:49 PM

What empirical observations are there of "God" that make it a "fundamental law"?

I think Stephanie was referring to the Fine Tuned Universe argument. This argument asserts the fact that life would be impossible if there was a slight alteration to the fundamental physical constants, is evidence that the universe was created.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 16, 2016, 02:51:50 AM

• The properties of God that a deist sees are properties that are necessary for the universe to exist.


• The properties of God that a theist sees are properties that are necessary to explain their experience.


• The Fine Tuned Universe argument asserts, as evidence that the universe was created, that life would be impossible if there was a slight alteration to the fundamental physical constants.

And what's your view on these three positions?

One of my favorites songs. Tools Opiate... Love the beginning, it sounds like my life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD-f3uBKreE

Had to add NIB - the entire album
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVGyychgAM&list=PLqb9qVV0iYuj3vE7FTW3wBvPeFceW77ZQ

Quote from: stephaniec on January 16, 2016, 01:35:02 AM
standing on a planet in absolute nothingness enjoying delicious food and a warm sun instead of not having any existence except as as atom speeding along waiting to crash into another atom A law that gives us a platform to live on. You may not see that as God , but I do.

What if ut's freezing and there's no hot food!?

Quote from: Ritana on January 16, 2016, 05:40:06 AM

What if ut's freezing and there's no hot food!?

I'm guessing that if you got yourself in that predicament you should of thought ahead of time.

You might be right, but that's not the point we are discussing. What I should or should not have done is irrelevant. You defined God as being something. I said what if that thing -that defines gid- DOES NOT exisit, it is NOT there. You turned around and said you should've... It's a definition we are talking about, NOT what one should or shouldn't have done.

SO what if I never got myself into that predicament; that -for the sake of example- I lived in a poor cold country with no social security or benefits. I get run over- in the middle of nowhere- by someone who runs away. I am alone, paralysed, it's freezing and your hot food is not here?

According to your above definition of God, God does not exit. To me, it does not sound like a good definition, love.

life and death have been played out on the planet for millions of years. Life is the way it is to me God exists to you God doesn't exist I suppose. I attribute my existence and all that encompasses to existence of God as a fundamental component of the reality of being and others don't, it's their choice. Existence has such an innate beauty that I can't comprehend that beauty coming from any other place other than God. Totally just my understanding of the universe and others can freely disagree,

Or to frame that argument in another way.  What if I had been born feeling that my mind didn't match my body.  This is highly distressing to me and all around is the message that Jesus is the answer.  So I pray and ask for my body to change and . . . Nothing.  Then, just in case he disapproves of that, I ask for my mind to be changed and . . . Nothing.  So, maybe I'm not praying hard enough so I repeat that nightly for 40 years.  I pray over 14,000 times for Jesus to save and . . . Nothing.

So, what am I to conclude about a theistic God then?

If he is in fact powerless to actually do anything then he is in fact NOT God.


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Quote from: stephaniec on January 16, 2016, 07:56:37 AM
life and death have been played out on the planet for millions of years. Life is the way it is to me God exists to you God doesn't exist I suppose. I attribute my existence and all that encompasses to existence of God as a fundamental component of the reality of being and others don't, it's their choice. Existence has such an innate beauty that I can't comprehend that beauty coming from any other place other than God. Totally just my understanding of the universe and others can freely disagree,

I am sorry, but it doesn't seem kike you read my reply properly.

so if one is born blind is that proof there must not be a God or if you died immediately after birth or in the womb and only had life for minutes or hours therefore God doesn't exist.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 16, 2016, 08:10:47 AM
so if one is born blind is that proof there must not be a God or if you died immediately after birth or in the womb and only had life for minutes or hours therefore God doesn't exist.

It's as true as the reciprocal argument. 

Does gender identity exist?

Why do we say this physical world and universe is beauty?  Is it really that?  How do we define this beauty that we attribute to existence.  Is it just the colors we see?  How do we know that's beauty when we are incapable of seeing anything else?

My experience informs me that this existence is not beauty at all.  It is rather cruel and unfeeling.  It is a reality where you kill to eat, where nature erases you without a second thought with lightening, tsunamis, fire, wind, etc.  it is a reality where people in the name of their religion, or nationality, or politics, or just for fun line other people up in ditches and shoot them in the head.

Why do we call this physical existence beauty?


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in my personal perception I see beauty all over. The concept of the atom and the electrons spinning them to me is incredibly beautiful. To me mathematics is intensely beautiful . This might not be true in others perception , but for me it is extremely true. The concept of the infinite void is mind  bogglingly   beautiful.

Quote from: Deborah on January 16, 2016, 09:05:01 AM
Why do we say this physical world and universe is beauty?  Is it really that?  How do we define this beauty that we attribute to existence.  Is it just the colors we see?  How do we know that's beauty when we are incapable of seeing anything else?

My experience informs me that this existence is not beauty at all.  It is rather cruel and unfeeling.  It is a reality where you kill to eat, where nature erases you without a second thought with lightening, tsunamis, fire, wind, etc.  it is a reality where people in the name of their religion, or nationality, or politics, or just for fun line other people up in ditches and shoot them in the head.

Why do we call this physical existence beauty?


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  We have freewill it is our choice to make a beautiful world or not. People can create things of great beauty and act in a benevolent compassionate way or they can commit great atrocity's and sow chaos it is our choice. 
   Myself I really don't care if there a is god, if he does exist they are not involved in the minutia of the human existence. I was raised Roman Catholic but I stopped believing in religion in the 2nd grade due to a member of the clergy's molestation. It was a man that did that to me and god did not intervene on my behalf no matter how much I prayed.
What I did take away from the bible was if Adam and Eve did exist and ate the apple they chose knowledge and freewill over being controlled by a god.  Religion is based on giving control of your life to something other than yourself, some people may find comfort in that I don't. If your life sucks god did not do that, you and possibly other people are responsible for that and no amount of groveling and praying is going to change it. It requires action from you to exercise your freewill and try to change the situation into something that you find more agreeable.

yes, God seems to get the blame for all of human trials and tribulations . God gave us a platform to exist and freedom to structure our lives. We have the ability  to fulfill the potential of human existence. We were given everything needed to survive in absolute nothingness, How much do you want. I believe we have the tools to go beyond our wildest dreams without any intervention because the intervention was given at the time of our beginning. You have the free will to believe or not to believe how beautiful is that.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?

1) I don't believe at any gods or any afterlife. I'm a atheist.

2) It sounds very supernatural and unrealistic. The idea doesn't match with the science. I rather being a atheist than a person who believe at a evil god. Gods are very unrealistic and it sounds like something from a fantasy book. There aren't any logic where a evil man-similar creature sitting in a cloud and created everything, a "person" who enjoy watching the humanity suffering.

3th point) I don't like any religion, even they have a few wise quotes and stories. Many things in religion are horrible and very gruesome. Especially when people use religion in war, abuse it and says how people should live. There are some terrifying rules in religion and it's very violence too. Islam, Judaism and Christianity are some religion that are against homosexual, women and transgender's rights. They do also discriminate against each other and other groups. Many of the religions values are so terrible and religion are so unrealistic with missing logic, therefor I have another reason why I'm atheist. After becoming a atheist, I lived a happier life.

A funny fact: According to a religious book God killed at least more than 2 476 633 people, but the devil killed only 10 people. God gave naughty people and non-believers punishments. He also made Satan and absolute everything in the whole world; whole universe, everything. In the story about Noah's ark, God killed many people or "sinners" that he called them, because he wasn't happy about their evilness. But in fact, he gave the humans the free will according to the books.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 13, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
1) Does God exist?

2) Why, or why not?

1. Can't really answer one way or another without a definition.  So, first, a definition: "God" refers to the putative creator of the universe.  Then, to answer the question, no, such an entity does not exist.

2. Anything that exists does so as a result of causes and conditions.  The concept of God is put forward as the ultimate cause for everything else.  But that implies that God exists without cause.  But nothing exists without cause, therefore God does not exist.

This implies that the universe has always existed since beginningless time.  As a Buddhist, I do not have a problem with that.  The Big Bang - the beginning of what scientists can observe - is, in this view, just the beginning of the lastest cycle in an unending series of cycles.

1 yes

2 because

Quote from: stephaniec on January 16, 2016, 10:24:18 AM
You have the free will to believe or not to believe how beautiful is that.

Except that we don't have free will.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 17, 2016, 10:20:26 PM
Except that we don't have free will.

Those with a Roman Catholic background, like me, throw that "free will" meme around. It's easy to blow it off as Papist propaganda, but actually you can choose whether to buy into the religions BS, or think it through and make your own decision, which could go either way.

Quote from: diane 2606 on January 17, 2016, 10:49:12 PM
Those with a Roman Catholic background, like me, throw that "free will" meme around. It's easy to blow it off as Papist propaganda, but actually you can choose whether to buy into the religions BS, or think it through and make your own decision, which could go either way.

Mm, it is easy to perceive such "choices" as free will.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 17, 2016, 10:20:26 PM
Except that we don't have free will.

Why is it you feel you do not have freewill? You can choose what actions to take in your life, you can not be certain of the outcome and there are finite amount of choices, but it is still your choice to make.  I do not buy into the idea of fate, some outcomes are inevitable for example we are all going to die at some point. That does not mean I am going give up on living.

Quote from: Stevie on January 17, 2016, 11:16:05 PM
Why is it you feel you do not have freewill? You can choose what actions to take in your life, you can not be certain of the outcome and there are finite amount of choices, but it is still your choice to make.  I do not buy into the idea of fate, some outcomes are inevitable for example we are all going to die at some point. That does not mean I am going give up on living.

I don't "feel" that I have a lack of free will, I feel that I do. Logically, however, I know that free will is an illusion.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 18, 2016, 12:20:07 AM
I don't "feel" that I have a lack of free will, I feel that I do. Logically, however, I know that free will is an illusion.

Can you expound on your assertion?

I kinda believe that we are getting off topic but in my opinion we always have free will. No matter what happens we can always make a decision to go one way or another. It is just that each decision can carry a different consequence and some decisions are easier to make than others.

This reply's for you, too, Stevie :)

Quote from: DanielleA on January 18, 2016, 12:37:37 AM
I kinda believe that we are getting off topic but in my opinion we always have free will.

Since free will is such a large component of religious dogma, and that the existence of "God" may dictate whether humans have free will, I don't think we're really off topic.

QuoteNo matter what happens we can always make a decision to go one way or another.

Every decision, or non-decision, has an antecedent or cause. To show otherwise, you'd have to demonstrate how causality doesn't apply to human thought and action.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 18, 2016, 03:45:59 AM
This reply's for you, too, Stevie :)

Since free will is such a large component of religious dogma, and that the existence of "God" may dictate whether humans have free will, I don't think we're really off topic.

Every decision, or non-decision, has an antecedent or cause. To show otherwise, you'd have to demonstrate how causality doesn't apply to human thought and action.

something might cause some other event , but as a human you can choose a different path or even create a different cause by choosing differently.

Quote from: cathyrains on January 16, 2016, 09:04:38 AM
Does gender identity exist?

Depends who you're asking, and you really should ask.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 18, 2016, 03:53:18 AM
something might cause some other event , but as a human you can choose a different path or even create a different cause by choosing differently.

And what is choosing, what is the brain's decision-making process, the mechanisms involved?

your conscious self enabled by a mechanism that allows to choose , rationality, the use of reason to objectively dissect an event and manipulate the cause and effect. The ability to view from the outside.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 18, 2016, 04:09:35 AM
your conscious self enabled by a mechanism that allows to choose , rationality, the use of reason to objectively dissect an event and manipulate the cause and effect. The ability to view from the outside.

What "mechanism" are you referring to?

The "outside" of what?

the mechanism of free will , the ability to reason. out side, to be objective to rationalize.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 18, 2016, 04:30:26 AM
the mechanism of free will , the ability to reason. out side, to be objective to rationalize.

So the mechanism behind free will is free will?

the mechanism behind the ability to be rational and objectively to perceive without subjective inclinations is free will.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 18, 2016, 04:50:00 AM
the mechanism behind the ability to be rational and objectively to perceive without subjective inclinations is free will.

Never mind.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 18, 2016, 04:51:46 AM

Never mind.

I think Kant can explain it better

https://philosophynow.org/issues/93/Free_Will_versus_Natural_Necessity

God may or may not exist, if any of you happen to make it back after you're dead and gone be sure to let us know

Quote from: stephaniec on January 14, 2016, 04:50:20 PM
Just for me the universe is an organized energy and that organization or fundamental law without which there would be only random particles chaotically bumping into each other with no other purpose than to bump into each other . That law that guides is my God.

Yes! Stephanie. For me god exists when the physics matches the spiritual, because they are the same thing. If they're not, we've either got our concept of the physics, or of god, wrong.

I don't like the term 'god' though because it has too much history. I refer to it as source; the fundament of reality; the intelligence behind everything; or as at 96 my Grandfather blew me away by calling it The Universal Information Matrix. (Gramp! Where did that come from!?! :) )

This is just what I believe. The universe - 'reality' - is an energetic substrate. This substrate bunches up and vibrates at different rates, to form the appearance of 'matter'. This matter then interacts with other 'matter' by displaying the properties of mass, electromagnetism, and gravity. Just a few fundamental particles following simple rules, manifests as the infinitely complex universe around us.

Yet all energy is all the same source. It bunches up into particles, so it can interact with itself. It is the infinite, apparently divided into the finite.

This fundamental energy is directly convertible to - and from - matter (Energy = mass * 299792458^2). They are the same.

The interaction of a few simple particles following a few simple rules, gives rise to elements, to planets, to solar systems, to galaxies, to universes. It also gives rise to life. In fact, following the simple rules, life is inevitable: It will always happen. Life leads to awareness, then consciousness, so that this energy experiences itself in deeper and more complex ways. It's a perfect system. It's not by accident. Yet it's just an idea in the mind of 'god' - and so are we.

We will go on to take control of our own evolution - and we already are. It's called biotechnology. We will connect our minds, and experience ourselves in ever increasingly complex ways.

xox Sami

Quote from: V M on January 18, 2016, 05:18:06 AM
God may or may not exist, if any of you happen to make it back after you're dead and gone be sure to let us know

I think I just did

Quote from: V M on January 18, 2016, 05:18:06 AM
God may or may not exist, if any of you happen to make it back after you're dead and gone be sure to let us know

Speaking of reincarnation, did I ever mention that I used to be a good friend of Cleopatra VII Philopator? Ah, you got me, we only shared a ship together once.

Here's the essence of free will, in a nutshell:

God's plan made a hopeful beginning,
But man spoiled its chances by sinning.
We trust that the story
Will end to God's glory,
But at present the other side's winning.

If you believe in the concept of sin (doing stuff that's contrary to God's will), then you're forced to believe in "free will." Otherwise, it's God who is making you sin, and that's just NO FAIR.

For those of us who believe that the universe is lawful and deterministic, and that the idea of a god or gods (and the whole notion of "sin") is something created by humans, the concept of free will isn't necessary. I'm fine with the idea that my actions have causes, and that I may not know what they are. Nevertheless, the belief that we have free will is a useful fiction if it pushes us in the direction of doing what's right. But that belief is just one among a whole slew of variables that determine our behavior.

1) No

2) why not? because if God truly cared about "HIS" children than clearly there wouldnt be hatred. Also the bible was written by man, changed so man can manipulated people with as well as the events of creation is so far misconstrued. science has already proven how existence came onto being and has debunked biblical ideology. however I myself don't have an issue with whether someone believes in GOD or not as long as my beliefs aren't challenged. I've already died plenty of times from near death experiences (drowning, overdoses and what have you) and I can clearly say there really isn't anything on the other side except darkness and void. the concept of heaven and hell to me is how one dies with either regret or a sense of fulfillment as they pass on from this world to the next

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Quote from: cathyrains on January 16, 2016, 09:04:38 AM
Does gender identity exist?

Off course the gender in our brain exist. I'm a proof and it's hard for other to deny it. If that didn't exist, I wouldn't exist as the person I'm today. I would probably not existing as me, but being a whole difference person. Either I would be me, just cis gender, guy all the ways. Or I would be what I would call "not existing as me", having both female brain and xx-chromosome body aka. female anatomy.

If I'm a guy with XX-chromosomes, how wouldn't gender identity exist then? What I am then??? Gender identity aka. gender brain structure are a biological part of the humans brain of which real gender we are. The body do often match, but a chromosome mistake may happening, so the brain and body doesn't match properly - so you can end up with gender (brain) and sex (between your legs) that are separate.

On the free will issue, I think the Libet series of experiments is fairly robust evidence against the classic notion of free will, i.e. will being exercised by the conscious brain. Not without faults, mind, but they show fairly conclusively that decisions are made by the unconscious parts of the brain prior to the conscious mind making the decision. If you want to squeeze free will into the unconscious, there may be room in there.

1. Does God exist?
-I believe it does, but human beings have anthropormorphise it.
2. Why or why not?
-God is nature, the cosmos, the creator of energy, energy itself, all that is around us, the sub atomic particles to the biggest natural phenomenon, like blackholes to supernovas to massive stars. Does God do our bidding? Nope, we do Nature's bidding. Can we manipulate nature or replicate it? Its possible, but we ourselves are part of the total natural/god experience/phenomenon, since we are life, and earth is life, other than inert gases and rocks.

My 2 cents.  8)

Quote from: Serverlan on January 16, 2016, 03:48:34 AM

And what's your view on these three positions?

What is my view on a deistic God, and the fine tuned universe argument?

The fine tuned universe argument states that because the universe appears designed for life, this is evidence of a designer. We can not prove or disprove this argument, but before Darwin we believed the Earth was designed for life, so a plausible theory is that our life sustaining universe emerged through random mutation, within a multiverse.

What is my view on a theistic God?

Belief in an established God causes both social cohesion and intolerance. Overall, we would be better off with more tolerance, but a diminishment in social cohesion can have devastating effects, if the level of opportunity is also low.

To tie the conversations on free will and God together, we do not a have a choice but to have free will, but the universe is deterministic, and thus I think the concept of divine punishment is wicked. I do not experience God, and I do not see any reason to follow any particular God's edicts, but the reason I am this way is a combination of my genetics and experiences. Thus, I do not think it would fair if a God that created the universe punished me for not following its edicts, when it did not provide the circumstances for me to believe in them.

1 yes

2 fundamental law without which there would be no need for conciousnes , everything would just exist with no need to question it.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 25, 2016, 12:56:14 PM
1 yes

2 fundamental law without which there would be no need for conciousnes , everything would just exist with no need to question it.

Do you think consciousness can arise from natural selection?

Quote from: autumn08 on January 25, 2016, 02:30:22 PM
Do you think consciousness can arise from natural selection?

The theory of natural selection, understood properly, and taken to its logical ends can explain consciousness easily.  That doesn't mean that it proves it came about through natural selection though.   It's simply a feasible explanation.

A few years ago I read On The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin from cover to cover just to see what all the fuss was about.  My primary conclusion is that most people that object to it vociferously on the internet don't have a clue what they're arguing about.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: autumn08 on January 25, 2016, 02:30:22 PM
Do you think consciousness can arise from natural selection?

To me consciousness and the attainment or pursuit  of it by an organism goes hand in hand with natural selection. The building of the platform of consciousness how does the organism achieve that goal. trail and error , like what form of bone structure allows an animal to succeed. It's just in my own personal belief is that consciousness and the consciousness of the creator are intertwined or as I believe is God's gift in order to contemplate the origin of that which is contemplating. Biology is the scaffolding  through which consciousness is  achieved.

Quote from: autumn08 on January 25, 2016, 12:12:48 PMThe fine tuned universe argument states that because the universe appears designed for life, this is evidence of a designer. We can not prove or disprove this argument, but before Darwin we believed the Earth was designed for life, so a plausible theory is that our life sustaining universe emerged through natural selection, within a multiverse.

It sounds like we may have reached similar conclusions autumn.

The fine tuned universe argument is beginning to be shown experimentally - the universe tends towards ever increasing entropy, and life (and even consciousness) is just the manifestation of that increasing entropy.

Jeremy England proposes "You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant".

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-new-physics-theory-of-life/

xx Sami

Quote from: SamKelley on January 25, 2016, 08:27:04 PM
It sounds like we may have reached similar conclusions autumn.

The fine tuned universe argument is beginning to be shown experimentally - the universe tends towards ever increasing entropy, and life (and even consciousness) is just the manifestation of that increasing entropy.

Jeremy England proposes "You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant".

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-new-physics-theory-of-life/

xx Sami

Thank you for the interesting article, Sami!  :)

As per request of Riley, who thinks i can contribute something to this conversation, i will reply.

Do I think God exist?
I cant really say for sure because i focus on whats real. Things I can taste, touch,feel, hear, and see. Because this celestial body known as God is comprised of spirit energy, I can neither feel touch taste see nor hear it. With thorough reading of the bible from front to cover and cover to front as well as comparing the events written to the events that have truly happen, I've deduced that not everything in the bible adds up which in turns makes me doubt its truly God's word and that God is just a concept created during the common era. Upon further reading, there are disturbing details written, I will not say them as this is my opinion and i do not want to disregard any person's belief for what they believe in or not is not any of my concern nor do i have the right to judge, anyways these details clearly show me that God is either evil or people have used this concept called "God" as a source to manipulate, but again this is all my opinion.

Why do I think this?
I can't ignore some of the things written as well as people using " because God said it in his word" as an excuse for there actions without justification. God does not guide our actions, we as beings with free will do. While we are on this mortal plan, it is our responsibility to take action for ourselves. I've seen to many people fall flat because they believe God will provide for them and it doesn't go well for them because they stop believing in their own success. I have on the other hand seen peace in people's eyes because believing in a higher being provides them with a sense of peace and assurance as well as motivation to become something greater or at least become better than they were the day before. I believe if believing in God or some form of higher power helps you through the day, you should keep at it and don't be afraid to show it to. People have different opinions so no matter what it is, just keep doing you and don't let anyone knock you down because of it

Quote from: Mew on January 28, 2016, 05:07:15 PM
As per request of Riley, who thinks i can contribute something to this conversation, i will reply.

Do I think God exist?
I cant really say for sure because i focus on whats real. Things I can taste, touch,feel, hear, and see. Because this celestial body known as God is comprised of spirit energy, I can neither feel touch taste see nor hear it. With thorough reading of the bible from front to cover and cover to front as well as comparing the events written to the events that have truly happen, I've deduced that not everything in the bible adds up which in turns makes me doubt its truly God's word and that God is just a concept created during the common era. Upon further reading, there are disturbing details written, I will not say them as this is my opinion and i do not want to disregard any person's belief for what they believe in or not is not any of my concern nor do i have the right to judge, anyways these details clearly show me that God is either evil or people have used this concept called "God" as a source to manipulate, but again this is all my opinion.

Why do I think this?
I can't ignore some of the things written as well as people using " because God said it in his word" as an excuse for there actions without justification. God does not guide our actions, we as beings with free will do. While we are on this mortal plan, it is our responsibility to take action for ourselves. I've seen to many people fall flat because they believe God will provide for them and it doesn't go well for them because they stop believing in their own success. I have on the other hand seen peace in people's eyes because believing in a higher being provides them with a sense of peace and assurance as well as motivation to become something greater or at least become better than they were the day before. I believe if believing in God or some form of higher power helps you through the day, you should keep at it and don't be afraid to show it to. People have different opinions so no matter what it is, just keep doing you and don't let anyone knock you down because of it

Hi Mew,


Thank you for sharing, and welcome to Susan's.  :)

If the christian god exists, why doesn't it protect those in the bible belt who believe, from tornadoes? If there's no benefit, why bother? The promise of eternal salvation is only to keep people from challenging the oligarchy.

The human race hasn't produced a single survivor yet. What do tornadoes have to do with it?

Hugs, Devlyn

When I was a Christian, God used to save me parking places at the store.  But he was totally unable to do anything about the gender dysphoria.

I just can't figure out why that is?


Sapere Aude

I also forgot to mention a crucial detail. In the bible it states "only by God's grace will one be saved." this statement is crucial because it doesn't matter whether your pure of heart, if you don't have God's grace, you would not be able to enter into heaven. If you read the bible thoroughly, gaining God's grace is no simple matter and very few people have managed this feat which leads me to believe God is unimaginably cruel and plays favorites

A widely held although not universal Christian belief is predestination.  That is God creates some to be born predestined for salvation and others for damnation.  Your free will is an illusion and your actions are irrelevant.  John Calvin as well as Thomas Aquinas, both extremely influential theologians, taught this doctrine and it is stated in Paul's letters.  So yes, if he exists he plays favorites.


Sapere Aude

1- Of course it does!

2- But it is not necessarily as described by religions, that is in many ways just a selling job by organized religions to guide the people into following whichever religion they are selling, not as much now, but hundred and thouthads of years ago, before we had chat groups, blogs and weekepedia where people can hear each other express their opinions and discuss pro/cons or why and why not of every subject there is.

First, With some minor scientific background and a lot of interest in the evolution of the Universe, I have read about the Big Bang and even allowing for dark matter, it cannot be fully explained where and how eveything started, it appears that it came from nothing and that it has been expanding ever since. A higher power called God , Buddha or whatever you like almost had to start the process.

Second,  How can anyone that has seen a baby born and understand how reproduction works can believe that we and all animals started from the provervial soup with some amino-acids and simple chemicals and that evolution have made us reach where we are today.  I do believe in evolution and not creation, BUT it is very very difficult to believe that we all started from the same and that we became what we are today without somebody or something guiding our path to become what we are.

Third:  In moments of desperation, I need to have some deity in which to believe that even if it cannot resolved my problems, at least will give me the understanding to overcome those problems and allow me to face reality without destroying myself.

I guess I need to believe in something!

Emily

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2016, 09:10:55 PM
The human race hasn't produced a single survivor yet. What do tornadoes have to do with it?

Hugs, Devlyn

Every spring, through Kansas and Oklahoma, tornadoes rip through villages and towns. Christians say if you believe and pray bad stuff won't happen to you. Doesn't work, does it?

 
  Just because something is beyond our understanding does not mean its cause is supernatural.

  Why would god send Moses to ask Pharaoh to let the slaves go free, and every time  Pharaoh agrees to let them leave "god hardens Pharaohs heart" and Pharaoh changes his mind about letting them leave. As a result of not letting them leave god sends plagues  to punish Pharaoh culminating in the genocide of all of Egypt's first born children. If the god of the bible does exist he is a psychopath.

People often ask the hypothetical question if you could go back in time and kill Hitler would you? It might be better to go back in time and kill Abraham for starting this mess.

Quote from: diane 2606 on January 28, 2016, 10:27:15 PM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2016, 09:10:55 PM
The human race hasn't produced a single survivor yet. What do tornadoes have to do with it?

Hugs, Devlyn

Every spring, through Kansas and Oklahoma, tornadoes rip through villages and towns. Christians say if you believe and pray bad stuff won't happen to you. Doesn't work, does it?

Tornadoes destroy one house and leave the one next door completely untouched, so maybe it does work.

Unfortunately, those who believe in a higher power and don't have some type of understanding how things came into being such has through science, the study of how the material world and its inhabitatants came into being, they are very easily manipulated by scriptures and their very own faith. I don't have an issue with the person's faith however I've met to many people this faith is all they need and fail to see the big picture of things. faith should serve as a factor to help one navigate through life, not explain it. In this harsh world, you need solid facts to survive. Also on the tornado thing, there are many people of faith that pray not to get hit but God bit yet they still get hit. so no, praying only plays a factor in giving comfort not protection

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It would be pretty funny if the New Testament was an absolute correct recording of the events of the period that Christ walked the earth. The problem people have is that those events never had happened before nor after and are so unbelievable according to common sense that it's far more easier to discount than to accept. And on top of the believability   is the fact  that the government that had supreme authority throughout  the land sure the heck would not want history to record that they were responsible for the execution of God's son .

Well to be fair another problem is that the only primary sources to those events are from anonymous authors and nobody knows whether  they were writing as witnesses or simply copying other sources.  Textual criticism suggests there was a lot of copying.

A second issue is a complete absence of anything written by the protagonist himself.

A third issue is that the majority of the New Testament was written by Paul or people claiming his name and he never actually met Jesus at all.  He simply proclaimed himself an apostle after the fact.

As you said, that does not prove the events didn't happen.  But it does point to a curious lack of evidence of happenings that would be extraordinary at any point in time.  A strong example is the dead rising from their graves and walking around Jerusalem.  Is it reasonable to believe that this happened and that nobody noticed or wrote home about it?


Sapere Aude

I think one of the problems is The Jewish community itself as regards the elders not wanting these facts published because of fear their religion would not continue to exist because Jesus himself being a Jew. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, by the Romans and all Jews were forbidden for living any where around there.  The recording of events was done through passing the stories down through word of mouth. Jesus was a criminal and his teaching were punishable by imprisonment and death. His followers were in hiding. I have a personal belief the  Book of Revelations holds a lot of historical fact , but is disguised under writing that seem fantastical in order for the facts described to avoid detection by Rome.  As far as things like the dead walking  one interpretation of the resurrection is that basically we all are the dead walking because God has the ability to raise the temple back up from destruction which you could say the earth is the temple. There is a lot of ways physically to explain all the miracles .
I'm not going into that because it's just conjecture on my part  and all one needs to say is that I've done too much LSD. Also if Jesus was truly the son of God healing would not be a problem even though its so hard to comprehend because no one before or after has that ability.

We can all stand here all day debating whats real and whats not. In the eyes of science and what has actually occurred throughout history, there is a huge rift between those that follow God and those that follow reality and what truly is. What can't be explained, God's follows say its because of God, however they become disappointed when science proves what happens in its almost exact order. Sure, no one can explain the big bang but its been proven that dinosaurs came before humans thus debunking the Adam and eve and the garden of Eden plot in the book of Genesis because there are no human remains before the time of the dinosaurs that scientist can carbon date. However there are good things about religion and having a belief in something higher than ourselves. Life is far to strange and not even science can explain everything but continues to make advance to try and understand our world and the worlds left undiscovered to give us some understanding. Religion and belief comes into play when your dealing with the dynamics of family structure, society and your own self. Life is far to difficult and unforgiving to go blind and without some direction. This is why i don't believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell. Your heaven is passing on without regret and with a smile on your face, your hell is passing on with unfinished business and worry that you'll care with you into your next life. The idea of becoming and angel and serving is like slavery to me and this kind of slavery in the afterlife is worse than death. You lose free will and only follow what your told to do and say. Religion was created to give us guidelines and rules to follow to become productive in our own growth and development. However, there are radicals who take it way to far. As i mentioned in a previous post, belief is good but there must be a balance and that's where the sciences come in, as well as its not a matter of people trying to change you and your prospective, its about how strongly you feel about something and how far your willing to go, but just remember the consequences and not everything is as black and white as you hope them to be. I gave up on believing because the human heart is to easily manipulated and the statement i said before " only by God's grace will you be saved," doesn't matter what i do, i wont be saved unless by God's grace and earning grace is next to impossible because even the believer's heart will easily succumb to sin

just for me personally I made a choice to believe in God and I have no regrets.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 29, 2016, 04:39:04 PM
just for me personally I made a choice to believe in God and I have no regrets.

Than continue with that belief. Do what makes you happy. With this said, I will now bow out of this

1. Yes

2. Too many unexplainable things have happened that could have only been him.

I have a girlfriend who has a son and a daughter and I consider them very much so my son and daughter. My daughter in April of 2015 had a hole in her heart and needed open heart surgery at 4, I prayed about it and my girlfriend calls me, mine you this was a few days before her surgery because her surgery was scheduled for June 22nd and she says she has great news and I said well what is it and she says the doctor did an X-Ray on Kaylee today and he couldn't find the hole in her heart.

My girlfriend had knee surgery back in June of 2015 sadly things went downhill because they screwed up on her knee and when she got home she was coughing up blood so she had to go back to the hospital, Once they put her back under the anestetia her heart rate started dropping and she then had no brain activity for a total of 2 days, her lungs then started to collapse because she had a seizure while they were working on her and they had to do emergency surgery on her, the doctors said she had a 50/50 chance of living and they didn't believe she was even gonna make it, I flipped out hearing that, all I could do was cry because I thought we were gonna loose her and because I just couldn't imagine my life without her so I prayed about it and I actually went outside for a walk to clear my head and I stopped and looked up in the sky and said God if you really exist let her live, after that I heard a voice say trust me. Once I prayed again its like I felt this weight lifted off me, I didn't cry anymore or worry because I trusted him and surely enough the next morning she was on her way home the next day.

Later on in July of 2015 she had in incident which put her into a coma for a few days, the doctors once again said she had a 50/50, I prayed once again that he would pull her through and the next day the doctors says that she will be released at night or in the morning and that she's doing fine.

And there was way more where that came from, you can't tell me there is not a higher being up there.

Quote from: Brandon on May 16, 2016, 11:39:30 PM
1. Yes

2. Too many unexplainable things have happened that could have only been him.

I prayed about it and my girlfriend calls me... she says the doctor did an X-Ray on Kaylee today and he couldn't find the hole in her heart.

I prayed again... and surely enough the next morning she was on her way home the next day.

I prayed once again... and the next day the doctors says that she will be released at night or in the morning and that she's doing fine.

And there was way more where that came from, you can't tell me there is not a higher being up there.

If god exists and can help people in the way that you think, then she sure is letting a lot of other people down.

Quote from: Serverlan on May 22, 2016, 09:36:12 AM


If god exists and can help people in the way that you think, then she sure is letting a lot of other people down.

I've always had another problem with the "god(s) did it" school of thought. 

Take Bubonic plague.  It hit Europe hard in the Sixth Century, and then absolutely rampaged in the Fourteenth.  Then there were some later outbreaks (really starting with India) which were actually managed increasingly well by a "how do we understand what's going on here?" school of thought.  But in the earlier outbreaks, the superstitious explanation for the  problem meant they tried to stop a blood-borne disease carried by fleas on rats through doing things like carrying around pockets full of posies, or posting crosses over their doors, or by killing all the cats in sight as familiars of the witches who had brought the plague about.  The last a particularly unhelpful action when rats are part of the problem.  But there was no point in worrying about an explanation because all that death and disfigurement was simply "god's will."     

Obviously, it takes time and resources to understand increasingly complicated problems, and there's always the "god of holes" problem as the god in question shrinks further with each explanation, but we've got deaths in the (tens of ?  hundreds of?) millions from centuries of people who simply made no effort to understand the problem because they were already satisfied that it was divine will.  Aside from the intellectual problems, I consider this a moral indictment in its own right.  How many people would have survived bubonic plague without "god(s) did it" having served as the explanation and treatment for centuries?  How many victims of internal and external disease processes would have survived if entire societies hadn't gotten complacent with divine intervention and actually started trying to figure out exactly how people were really living and dying? 

So, yes, I agree that god(s) are a poor mechanism for understanding the world, but the cost of that mechanism is simply horrifying.       

Quote from: Serverlan on May 22, 2016, 09:36:12 AM


If god exists and can help people in the way that you think, then she sure is letting a lot of other people down.

God doesn't work on our time either and that's he.

Quote from: Colleen M on May 22, 2016, 10:18:33 AM
I've always had another problem with the "god(s) did it" school of thought. 

Take Bubonic plague.  It hit Europe hard in the Sixth Century, and then absolutely rampaged in the Fourteenth.  Then there were some later outbreaks (really starting with India) which were actually managed increasingly well by a "how do we understand what's going on here?" school of thought.  But in the earlier outbreaks, the superstitious explanation for the  problem meant they tried to stop a blood-borne disease carried by fleas on rats through doing things like carrying around pockets full of posies, or posting crosses over their doors, or by killing all the cats in sight as familiars of the witches who had brought the plague about.  The last a particularly unhelpful action when rats are part of the problem.  But there was no point in worrying about an explanation because all that death and disfigurement was simply "god's will."     

Obviously, it takes time and resources to understand increasingly complicated problems, and there's always the "god of holes" problem as the god in question shrinks further with each explanation, but we've got deaths in the (tens of ?  hundreds of?) millions from centuries of people who simply made no effort to understand the problem because they were already satisfied that it was divine will.  Aside from the intellectual problems, I consider this a moral indictment in its own right.  How many people would have survived bubonic plague without "god(s) did it" having served as the explanation and treatment for centuries?  How many victims of internal and external disease processes would have survived if entire societies hadn't gotten complacent with divine intervention and actually started trying to figure out exactly how people were really living and dying? 

So, yes, I agree that god(s) are a poor mechanism for understanding the world, but the cost of that mechanism is simply horrifying.       

I mean its no different than getting a spanking from your parents God lets certain things happen as a wake up call just like our parents had to woop us God has to do the same thing which is why everything in the world is happening.

Parents don't kill their children except for the ones we call truly evil.  Nor do parents deliberately stand by and watch their children get hurt except for the negligent ones we charge with child abuse.  Nor does a parent torture their child in unending fiery pain unless they are a psychopath.


Sapere Aude

of course God exists , why else does orange juice go perfectly with tequila or a broiled rib eye with baked potato.

 :police: Remember this is a religious tread and TOS 16 states that you should not judge another's beliefs. The thread is unlocked.  :police:

Quote from: Deborah on May 24, 2016, 05:41:05 PM
Parents don't kill their children except for the ones we call truly evil.  Nor do parents deliberately stand by and watch their children get hurt except for the negligent ones we charge with child abuse.  Nor does a parent torture their child in unending fiery pain unless they are a psychopath.


Sapere Aude

Ill just say this, did you ever think that the bad stuff that goes on in the world is because of our own selves. Yes God lets certain things happen but we are doing this to ourselves everything starts with the man in the mirror as I said and as far as hell goes yeah I ask the same thing sometimes but I can't deny the facts and what I have seen because then il just get denied from heaven. Ill leave it at that.

I simply completed the syllogism.  Since I used to be very devout myself, attending seminary and teaching Bible classes in an extremely conservative and reactionary Anglican Church, my judging anybody in this forum for their religious belief would be more hypocrisy than I could swallow in one evening.

I no longer believe any of it and will be straightforward as to my reasoning why.  But having been there myself I understand why others do believe.

So, if my aim in that post was misdirected then I apologize for the misunderstanding.


Sapere Aude

How any of our actions bring on such things as tsunamis that kill 20,000 people or the tornadoes that kill people in my part of the country every spring and fall is beyond my capacity to understand.  We do not cause these things in any way whatsoever.  And yet they happen and people suffer and people die.

And there is one who is purported to possess the power to stop these things with no more than a word.  But they continue to happen as they have since the beginning.


Sapere Aude

1) Yes, Deity exists, I believe it is both feminine and masculine as in God and Goddess.

2) Look around you, there are so many miracles every day, and I don't talk about the sun coming up, either. So many unexplained things and things that are omens that turn out to be correct. Some can be brushed off to science or statistics of luck, but there is so much more that cannot be explained. There cannot only be a God because there is feminine energy and there cannot just be a Goddess as there is masculine energy.

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