Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Do you think that we will ever develop successful technology to change one's gender identity?

Basically, the reason that I am asking this question is this: While I certainly want to become an extremely feminine eunuch and would certainly be extremely pleased if I will be successful in regards to this, I sometimes yearn for more. To elaborate on this, I frequently cross-dream about the idea of myself be(com)ing a lesbian or strongly lesbian-leaning trans-woman. Indeed, while I am certainly not a woman and generally prefer male pronouns, I nevertheless often want to become a trans-woman (with a female brain/mind and everything). I don't know what the reason for this is; indeed, I simply like trans-women so much that I want to become one. Anyway, while I have certainly made peace with who I actually am (specifically a genderqueer person/demi-guy), my cross-dreaming certainly hasn't gone away and hasn't even become any less frequent than it was before. Thus, I am certainly extremely curious about people's thoughts and responses to this question of mine. :)

I'm confused and not sure you are asking the right question - if I changed my gender identity it would mean that I identified as male, and I don't like the idea of that at all.

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 30, 2016, 02:56:54 AM
I'm confused and not sure you are asking the right question - if I changed my gender identity it would mean that I identified as male, and I don't like the idea of that at all.

Hang on--why exactly am I not asking the right question here? After all, while most people, including yourself, would probably disagree with me in regards to this, I myself would certainly enjoy changing my gender identity if my current sexuality will be completely unchanged. :)

Indeed, why exactly shouldn't I be able to wish that I was a trans-woman?

I seriously have no idea what you mean - of course you can identify as a trans woman if you want to. Personally I identify as a woman, but because I'm genetically male that makes me a trans woman. I'm not sure why you need technology to change how you identify if you already want to identify that way just identify as it.

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 30, 2016, 03:05:29 AM
I seriously have no idea what you mean - of course you can identify as a trans woman if you want to. Personally I identify as a woman, but because I'm genetically male that makes me a trans woman. I'm not sure why you need technology to change how you identify if you already want to identify that way just identify as it.

That's the thing, though--I don't currently identify as a trans-woman. Rather, I identify as an aspiring feminine eunuch/genderqueer person/demi-guy. However, I would certainly eventually like to become a trans-woman--if not now, then eventually! :)

Indeed, think of it as me having such a strong emotional and romantic attraction to trans-women than I myself want to become a trans-woman) in spite of the fact that I am certainly not a trans-woman (right now)). :)

Frankly, let me try explaining it to you another way--I can imagine what my dream woman looks like, correct? Well, I am simply taking it one step further and imposing my dream woman onto myself. Indeed, think of my cross-dreaming as an autoromantic inclination on my own part. :)

I think this question is impossible to answer right now because beyond a person's intrinsic knowledge of who they are, the meaning of gender identity is not known. Is it simply a set of instincts?  Does it include brain mapping to body parts?  Are there aspects to it we haven't determined yet? 

Secondly, the relation of the brain and its structure to gender identity remains unknown beyond general terms.

And thirdly, there is no scientific and metaphysical consensus on the relationship between the brain and the mind.

Maybe one day the answers to these questions will be discovered.  Then we can know whether or not this thing called identity can be switched back and forth with some procedure or drug.

One important issue though is the ethics of such a thing.  Identity would seem to be a key component of self.  If identity were to change then a new self is created.  But if a new self takes the place of the old then what happens to the old self?  Is that self annihilated?  I have thought a lot on this in the past and I have always felt that if I had the power to make this change of identity it would in effect kill the self that I am now.  "I" as a self-conscious being would simply cease to exist.  While the body remains animate the self is gone.  To me this idea is as instinctually repulsive as is the idea of becoming a zombie.

So maybe this question is too complex to be thought of simply in terms of a switch.  If it were to suddenly become possible though I'm pretty sure that I would not want to do it.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on January 30, 2016, 03:15:55 AM
I think this question is impossible to answer right now because beyond a person's intrinsic knowledge of who they are, the meaning of gender identity is not known. Is it simply a set of instincts?  Does it include brain mapping to body parts?  Are there aspects to it we haven't determined yet? 

Secondly, the relation of the brain and its structure to gender identity remains unknown beyond general terms.

And thirdly, there is no scientific and metaphysical consensus on the relationship between the brain and the mind.

Maybe one day the answers to these questions will be discovered.  Then we can know whether or not this thing called identity can be switched back and forth with some procedure or drug.

OK.

QuoteOne important issue though is the ethics of such a thing.  Identity would seem to be a key component of self.  If identity were to change then a new self is created.  But if a new self takes the place of the old then what happens to the old self?  Is that self annihilated?  I have thought a lot on this in the past and I have always felt that if I had the power to make this change of identity it would in effect kill the self that I am now.  "I" as a self-conscious being would simply cease to exist.  While the body remains animate the self is gone.  To me this idea is as instinctually repulsive as is the idea of becoming a zombie.

So maybe this question is too complex to be thought of simply in terms of a switch.  If it were to suddenly become possible though I'm pretty sure that I would not want to do it.


Sapere Aude

Yeah, I certainly understand why exactly many people, including yourself, wouldn't want to do this. However, I myself certainly appear to be an exception to the rule in regards to this. :) Indeed, it's not so much that I hate my current self; rather, I simply view my current self as being inferior to the self that I want and desire. :)

No one has ever found a way to change anyone's gender identity. Since it would involve rewiring your brain, I think it unlikely.

Quote from: Futurist on January 30, 2016, 03:08:49 AM
That's the thing, though--I don't currently identify as a trans-woman. Rather, I identify as an aspiring feminine eunuch/genderqueer person/demi-guy. However, I would certainly eventually like to become a trans-woman--if not now, then eventually! :)

Indeed, think of it as me having such a strong emotional and romantic attraction to trans-women than I myself want to become a trans-woman) in spite of the fact that I am certainly not a trans-woman (right now)). :)

Is it possible that your strong desire to become a trans woman is an indication that you are one? That you experience being a trans woman by feeling like a feminine eunuch/genderqueer person/demi-guy?

I'm definitely a trans woman, but I feel like part-male/part-female/part-agender genderfluid.

Quote from: Futurist on January 30, 2016, 03:14:31 AM
I can imagine what my dream woman looks like... I am simply taking it one step further and imposing my dream woman onto myself.

So you're someone who was male assigned at birth and who desires to become the woman of your dreams?

Welcome to the club.

Quote from: suzifrommd on January 30, 2016, 05:16:33 AM
No one has ever found a way to change anyone's gender identity. Since it would involve rewiring your brain, I think it unlikely.

Can't rewiring one's brain eventually become possible, though?

QuoteIs it possible that your strong desire to become a trans woman is an indication that you are one? That you experience being a trans woman by feeling like a feminine eunuch/genderqueer person/demi-guy?

Frankly, this is probably very unlikely. After all, I really do enjoy living as a male; indeed, I simply strongly dislike and strongly detest certain aspects of my body. :(

QuoteI'm definitely a trans woman, but I feel like part-male/part-female/part-agender genderfluid.

OK.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 30, 2016, 06:59:19 AM

So you're someone who was male assigned at birth and who desires to become the woman of your dreams?

Welcome to the club.

Except I also generally prefer male pronouns. In turn, this appears to make me very different from trans-women.

I am confused by the question of this thread, also, Grace.

At first, I thought the creator of this thread meant would it ever be possible to change our biological/chromosomal sex. The very thing that is "wrong" with our bodies for many of us. To change our gender identity sounds like brainwashing. That sounds like what my family already tries or would like to do on a daily basis if I ever let them get close enough...and that ain't gonna happen, ever.... ;D

Honestly, I don't like having a gender identity that is not the one I was assigned to because its hard to be different.......and people around me, no matter how much I try to trans 101 them to death, still think I am "daring to be different" when I am really just being who I am to feel like a real human being instead of a mechanical doll. :(

Quote from: FuturistCan't rewiring one's brain eventually become possible, though?

Our brains are "rewired," in a sense, every time we learn something or have a new experience. But tinkering directly with a brain and achieving anything useful, much less deliberately altering something as complex as gender identity, is about as likely as faster-than-light interstellar travel. Make of that what you will.

Thank the cosmos for human social propensities and our natal communicative abilities for this fantastic website because it is beyond merely helpful to those of us born with mis-matched physically and psychologically apparent identities. I was born with a boy's body but I know I am the woman trapped inside this and RIGHT NOW I am in the process of sorting it out to the best of western humanities' popularly available technology. However while none of us on this forum are thick heads I think it perhaps most helpful to address your  question to a consulting psyche in collaboration with various emails aimed at the forefront of medical science.

Sorry Futurist, forgive me, but I am unsure what it is that you REALLY wish to ask. Am I (or our other sisters and brothers here) missing something?

Anyways, bye bye and I hope I'm not being a silly airheaded girl,
hoping you find your answer,
ciao bella,
Roxanne.

Quote from: Ms Grace on January 30, 2016, 03:05:29 AM
I seriously have no idea what you mean - of course you can identify as a trans woman if you want to. Personally I identify as a woman, but because I'm genetically male that makes me a trans woman. I'm not sure why you need technology to change how you identify if you already want to identify that way just identify as it.

I'm actually more confused by what you are saying.  Are you saying you chose to identify as a woman?

Personally, as a transwoman, I would have loved to have changed my gender identity to that of a man when growing up.  It's not like I am transitioning because I don't want to identify as a male.

Does that make more sense?

Quote from: Futurist on January 30, 2016, 02:53:03 AM
Do you think that we will ever develop successful technology to change one's gender identity?

Basically, the reason that I am asking this question is this: While I certainly want to become an extremely feminine eunuch and would certainly be extremely pleased if I will be successful in regards to this, I sometimes yearn for more. To elaborate on this, I frequently cross-dream about the idea of myself be(com)ing a lesbian or strongly lesbian-leaning trans-woman. Indeed, while I am certainly not a woman and generally prefer male pronouns, I nevertheless often want to become a trans-woman (with a female brain/mind and everything). I don't know what the reason for this is; indeed, I simply like trans-women so much that I want to become one. Anyway, while I have certainly made peace with who I actually am (specifically a genderqueer person/demi-guy), my cross-dreaming certainly hasn't gone away and hasn't even become any less frequent than it was before. Thus, I am certainly extremely curious about people's thoughts and responses to this question of mine. :)

I totally get what you are asking.  I don't relate to your reasons for asking it but I get the question.  The answer is "no". 

If they could, there would be anybody transitioning (or at least gender dysphoria).

Quote from: Abysha on January 30, 2016, 04:37:44 PM
I totally get what you are asking.  I don't relate to your reasons for asking it but I get the question.  The answer is "no". 

If they could, there would be anybody transitioning (or at least gender dysphoria).

Think you could explain what Futurist means, then, as I have no idea.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 30, 2016, 05:39:32 PM
Think you could explain what Futurist means, then, as I have no idea.

I'm not exactly sure what he is talking about as far as his reason for asking but his question makes sense.  He is asking if there will ever be a way to essentially change your brain's gender.

Gender dysphoria is caused, for the most part, by your brain expecting to have a body that doesn't match what you are assigned to at birth.  Everybody has gender identity, it's just that cisgender folk don't ever have to think about it.

What he is asking is if there is a way to change that.  I wish they could since that would give people who suffer from gender dysphoria another option for treatment.  The goal for treatment is to have your brain align with your body and physically transitioning is the only option for that.  If there were some neurological procedure that would make your brain "transition" instead of your body, I think many people would go for it.  I probably would have.

Quote from: Abysha on January 30, 2016, 06:04:16 PM
I wish they could since that would give people who suffer from gender dysphoria another option for treatment.  The goal for treatment is to have your brain align with your body and physically transitioning is the only option for that.  If there were some neurological procedure that would make your brain "transition" instead of your body, I think many people would go for it.  I probably would have.

Out of curiosity--do you believe that such technology should also be available to cross-dreamers such as myself?

Quote from: Abysha on January 30, 2016, 06:04:16 PM
I'm not exactly sure what he is talking about as far as his reason for asking but his question makes sense.  He is asking if there will ever be a way to essentially change your brain's gender.

Seems to me he's trying to put himself in the shoes of a transgendered person, or more accurately become a trans person. That is, he wants to induce the incongruous experience of identifying as female while being gendered male by others. Of course, the intent may not be to experience gender dysphoria, since it's a condition not all trans people suffer from, but there's no guarantee as to whether he would or would not experience dysphoria.

QuoteGender dysphoria is caused, for the most part, by your brain expecting to have a body that doesn't match what you are assigned to at birth.  Everybody has gender identity, it's just that cisgender folk don't ever have to think about it.

Oddly enough, I'm quite familiar with gender dysphoria ;)

QuoteWhat he is asking is if there is a way to change that.  I wish they could since that would give people who suffer from gender dysphoria another option for treatment.  The goal for treatment is to have your brain align with your body and physically transitioning is the only option for that.  If there were some neurological procedure that would make your brain "transition" instead of your body, I think many people would go for it.  I probably would have.

As badly as I've suffered dysphoria, I don't think I'd go for it. Messing with my body to match my gender is one thing, but messing with my mind to match my body is a totally different story. Even if it were guaranteed that I could have my gender changed, that would in effect be altering a whole lifetime of gender and gender-related experiences that have made me who I am. Our personal identity is the one constant in life, which is why diseases that afflict memory and disrupt this continuity cause so much distress.

Quote from: Futurist on January 30, 2016, 06:47:48 PM
Out of curiosity--do you believe that such technology should also be available to cross-dreamers such as myself?

If a procedure like that were ever to be developed, it would be a medical treatment, to treat a medical condition.  I imagine it would be treated as such.  But who knows? 

I think the ethical concern would be the whole "do no harm" thing.  If you were to change the gender identity of a cisgender person, you would basically be causing a gender dysphoric condition in them which most medical professionals would probably be against.

None of this exists yet, though.  Either way, it is an interesting thread and an interesting question.  Almost like a philosophical exercise like those "morality" questions.

Quote from: Serverlan on January 30, 2016, 06:52:39 PM
Seems to me he's trying to put himself in the shoes of a transgendered person, or more accurately become a trans person. That is, he wants to induce the incongruous experience of identifying as female while being gendered male by others. Of course, the intent may not be to experience gender dysphoria, since it's a condition not all trans people suffer from, but there's no guarantee as to whether he would or would not experience dysphoria.

Yeah, that's sort of what I want.

Anyway, let me try explaining it this way (in third person form):

Daniel: My current self.
Danielle: The (trans-)woman that I would like to become.

Daniel would like to become an extremely feminine eunuch and would be extremely pleased if he were to indeed become an extremely feminine eunuch. :) However, Daniel is also extremely curious as to what it is like to be a (trans-)woman to the point of wanting to become a (trans-)woman himself. Thus, he alters his brain/mind and becomes Danielle. Now, is Danielle dysphoric? Yes, to some extent. However, due to Daniel's previous extreme feminization of his body, Danielle certainly isn't as dysphoric as she would have otherwise been. Indeed, the main things for Danielle to do would probably be to get FFS and maybe to get FFS and/or to get a vaginoplasty as well. :)

There--does that make sense?

Quote from: Futurist on January 30, 2016, 07:00:58 PM
Yeah, that's sort of what I want.

Anyway, let me try explaining it this way (in third person form):

Daniel: My current self.
Danielle: The (trans-)woman that I would like to become.

Daniel would like to become an extremely feminine eunuch and would be extremely pleased if he were to indeed become an extremely feminine eunuch. :) However, Daniel is also extremely curious as to what it is like to be a (trans-)woman to the point of wanting to become a (trans-)woman himself. Thus, he alters his brain/mind and becomes Danielle. Now, is Danielle dysphoric? Yes, to some extent. However, due to Daniel's previous extreme feminization of his body, Danielle certainly isn't as dysphoric as she would have otherwise been. Indeed, the main things for Danielle to do would probably be to get FFS and maybe to get FFS and/or to get a vaginoplasty as well. :)

There--does that make sense?

Pretty sure that's what I said previously. That is, you want to be trans, which would in turn create a drive to undergo sex affirmation surgery.

Quote from: Abysha on January 30, 2016, 06:58:23 PMIf a procedure like that were ever to be developed, it would be a medical treatment, to treat a medical condition.  I imagine it would be treated as such.  But who knows?

Can't some treatments for medical conditions also be used for recreational purposes, though? For instance, isn't <not allowed> one such treatment?

QuoteI think the ethical concern would be the whole "do no harm" thing.  If you were to change the gender identity of a cisgender person, you would basically be causing a gender dysphoric condition in them which most medical professionals would probably be against.

Three things:

1. This appears to be a case of the is-ought fallacy.
2. This gender dysphoria can be successfully treated afterwards.
3. Refusing to provide such treatment to a person such as myself might very well result in greater harm than good. After all, I like feminine eunuchs, I view them as the best kind of men, and I would certainly be overjoyed to live the rest of my natural life as a feminine eunuch. However, if we will develop a cure to aging during my lifetime (or if I will get cryogenically preserved and then successfully revived), then being a feminine eunuch certainly wouldn't be good enough for me in the long(er)-run. Rather, if I were to live indefinitely, then I would strongly prefer to live indefinitely as a lesbian or strongly lesbian-leaning trans-woman. :) Indeed, if I will be denied such treatment, then I will probably either descend into alcoholism or torture myself by living non-stop as a woman for several years or more (with all of the gender dysphoria and everything) in order to get these "gate-keeping" doctors to change their minds about this and to allow me to get and to utilize this treatment. Thus, if "gate-keeping" doctors will deny me this treatment, then they will probably be causing me more harm than good. Indeed, this certainly (and unfortunately) isn't the first time that "gate-keeping" doctors' actions might have resulted in more harm than good; heck, take a look at this article from a medical journal about "back-alley" surgical castrations for aspiring eunuchs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4184492/

"According to American criminal law, the consent to bodily harm is not a valid defense against a charge of battery; however, this legal principle has sparked controversy [17]. The "mainstreaming" of body piercing indicates a relaxation of cultural attitudes toward consent to body harm, although the legal system does not appear to be changing to reflect current practice. The question of consent becomes more complicated in the context of our research because human castration is drastic, irreversible and, when performed by nonmedical professionals, carries a high risk of pain, infection, and even death by exsanguination. As such, to remove the risk associated with nonmedical surgeries, some have argued for the medical community to provide amputations of healthy limbs for individuals experiencing extreme xenomelia or body integrity identity disorder (see discussion in 18–20). We would extend this argument to genitals to encompass those individuals who seek a eunuch or "third gender" identity. It might be argued that the great difficulty in finding effective psychiatric counseling and medically qualified surgeons for this population may result in greater harm than an absolute adherence to the Hippocratic creed of "do no harm." Within the community of eunuchs and those wishing to be castrated, who frequent the Eunuch Archive website, there is strong opposition both to self-castration and to the use of cutters. However, there are many discussions of "safer" ways to obtain castrations from surgeons. Some now inject toxins directly into the testicles in order to produce sufficient damage that a surgeon will perform an orchiectomy for damage control [21].

As with castrations for sexual reassignment, we favor standards of care for males with extreme castration ideations (i.e., the potential clients of the cutters) that would provide safe options beyond self-castration or seeking the service of cutters [2,10,14]. However, we do stress that the treatment of these individuals and the decision whether to perform the procedure should lie with the discretion and clinical judgment of treating physicians. Healthcare professionals must take individuals who disclose castration fantasies seriously, particularly if risk factors (e.g., history of sexual abuse, having been threatened with genital mutilation, and having witnessing animal castrations) are identified."

Plus, in any case, the "Do no harm" principle was already thrown out of the window when doctors agreed to perform many/most/all elective cosmetic surgeries.

QuoteNone of this exists yet, though.  Either way, it is an interesting thread and an interesting question.  Almost like a philosophical exercise like those "morality" questions.

Agreed; also, though, it is probably possible that such successful technology/treatment will eventually be created. :)

Mod Edit- It's marijuana illegal federally in the United States and as such  forbidden topic. TOS 5

Quote from: Serverlan on January 30, 2016, 07:06:08 PM
Pretty sure that's what I said previously. That is, you want to be trans, which would in turn create a drive to undergo sex affirmation surgery.

Not all trans-women actually get SRS, though.

Deliberately inducing dysphoria in one's self is a very bad idea.  It is a prison.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on January 30, 2016, 07:17:49 PM
Deliberately inducing dysphoria in one's self is a very bad idea.  It is a prison.


Sapere Aude

Two points:

1. The amount of dysphoria that I want to induce will actually be rather limited. After all, my current self (Daniel) already wants to get surgically castrated and to strongly feminize both his body and his face. :)
2. By the time that such technology will be developed (if ever), we would presumably live in a society which is much more tolerant of transgender people. Thus, in such a scenario, the (trans-)female version of me (Danielle) will be able to get treatment for her gender dysphoria immediately (as opposed to waiting years or decades to get such treatment). :)

Quote from: Futurist on January 30, 2016, 07:21:39 PM
Two points:

1. The amount of dysphoria that I want to induce will actually be rather limited. After all, my current self (Daniel) already wants to get surgically castrated and to strongly feminize both his body and his face. :)
2. By the time that such technology will be developed (if ever), we would presumably live in a society which is much more tolerant of transgender people. Thus, in such a scenario, the (trans-)female version of me (Danielle) will be able to get treatment for her gender dysphoria immediately (as opposed to waiting years or decades to get such treatment). :)

Frankly, Daniel and Danielle certainly have a lot of desires in common. :) Indeed, Danielle simply wants to take this feminization a little bit farther than Daniel wants to take it. :)

Also, believe me--I am certainly not trying to anger anyone here and I certainly know that my own views in regards to this are unconventional and unorthodox. However, my own cross-dreaming simply won't and can't go away, which in turn will mean that I will continue having these thoughts and desires for the rest of my life. :)

Quote from: Futurist on January 30, 2016, 07:16:40 PM
Can't some treatments for medical conditions also be used for recreational purposes, though? For instance, isn't marijuana one such treatment?

Three things:

1. This appears to be a case of the is-ought fallacy.
2. This gender dysphoria can be successfully treated afterwards.
3. Refusing to provide such treatment to a person such as myself might very well result in greater harm than good. After all, I like feminine eunuchs, I view them as the best kind of men, and I would certainly be overjoyed to live the rest of my natural life as a feminine eunuch...

...Plus, in any case, the "Do no harm" principle was already thrown out of the window when doctors agreed to perform many/most/all elective cosmetic surgeries.

Agreed; also, though, it is probably possible that such successful technology/treatment will eventually be created. :)

It's not difficult to get surgery these days for most things, there will always be willing surgeons if you look hard enough.

But the question of harm isn't related, though it can be, to appearance altering surgery. The inherent harm involved in the procedure that you're suggesting, gender change, risks the onset of dysphoria and all of its associated pathologies. For this reason I think you'd have a tougher time trying to find a health professional willing to offer such a procedure.

And it's still not clear why you would need a gender change in the first instance. If, as you say, you are already committed to the idea of living like a "female eunuch," then there's nothing preventing you from following that dream now.

 :police: Okay folks. This thread is already going downhill and I can't see it going anywhere good. TOS 15 and TOS 5 are already broken. Thread Locked.