Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Man in women's locker room cites gender rule

http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2016/02/16/man-womens-locker-room-cites-gender-rule/80478058/

KING 5/Alison Morrow, KING 5 News 5:25 p.m. PST February 16, 2016

"Seattle Parks and Recreation is facing a first-of-a-kind challenge to gender bathroom rules. A man undressed in a women's locker room, citing a new state rule that allows people to choose a bathroom based on gender identity."

Unfortunately there will always be somebody that will try ruin things for others There are 2 possible reasons for his actions that I can see .One is he opposes the bathroom laws and is trying to alienate Woman against it by saying look anybody can do the same and that is a very powerful argument against us .Or of course he could just be a Pervert trying to catch a peek at the woman .This does make things very difficult for us genuine transgender people in how to reassure other locker users of our good intentions .I would say that transgender or not a person should not get access to a gendered restroom or locker room if they are not looking dressed appropriately for the gender of the room .I am a full time MTF and if for some reason I was presenting as Male (god forbid LOL) I would not attempt to use the ladies restroom even though I feel that is the one appropriate for Me I would use the Gents but still sit .As I would not want to make my fellow women uncomfortable. As I hope all of You would act the same Way .So I think that appropriate clothing should be a big factor on allowing access to restrooms and myself I would have no objection to somebody keeping an eye out and asking inappropriately dressed persons why they want to use that Facility at least that way a CIS person that is for whatever reason looking Misgendered can explain and there is no problem for anybody

Toni

And the same would be true of these laws states are trying to get passed that say you have to use the bathroom of your birth sex. Any guy could walk into the women's room/lockerroom and just say they're post-op FTM. I remember hearing about some countries having a single full-sized public bathroom for both sexes (at the same time). Maybe that's the solution to this.

However, this incident points a to a grave miscalculation on the part of trans rights activists. We've been touting the fact that no one has ever done this, while we all know full well it was only a matter of time when someone did.

Recently in WA there was an attempt to overturn the "use the facilities you identify as" law.

The opponents brought up the usual "...but it's not safe!" arguments, so I think this guy was just trying to prove a point.

According to the article, he made no claim to be trans, and only took off his shirt. Very much a "hey look at me!" protest, certainly not the kind of surreptitious threat our opponents claim will happen.

The sad thing is, he probably only did this specifically because lawmakers have constantly been spouting "anyone can walk into a women's room and claim to be trans," where not a single person probably would have thought about it and it would never have been an issue had they not opened their big stupid mouths.

I guess the question remains, what do we need to do in order to have our rights? How can we draft legislation that allows trans and intersex people to use the bathroom that matches their identity rather than the gender marker on their birth certificates with full protections while also not letting non-trans people do stupid crap like this just because they can?

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 17, 2016, 08:56:13 AM
However, this incident points a to a grave miscalculation on the part of trans rights activists. We've been touting the fact that no one has ever done this, while we all know full well it was only a matter of time when someone did.

Suzi - there are always going to be perverts in the world, and the law should prosecute this guy as such since he is clearly breaking the law.

The unfortunate thing is that the people that are against us will use this as an example of what can happen when it clearly wasn't one of us that did it. We are presumed guilty without having done anything. We are the ones that will suffer because of this guy's misconduct.

We are still right in claiming that a transgender person has never done such a thing, but i'm not quite sure it matters to the opposition at this point - they now have the news story that they need to "prove their point".

The sad thing is that if the anti-transgender bathroom laws were in full effect as the anti-transgender people want the laws would not have stopped this guy from doing this if he chose to proceed with his plan.

Emotions are overruling common sense about this issue.

People really are petty, aren't they

If as many people that care about the bathroom myth cared about the street and domestic violence against women and children we'd be able to solve a lot of problems. They want cis-female only bathrooms, but if someone suggested female only taxi services or streets to prevent women being attacked - the exact same reason they want segregated bathrooms - then there'd be a not-all-men kind of outcry. Why are safe spaces scoffed at until it means they can persecute someone? 

Quote from: Carrie Liz on February 17, 2016, 09:11:05 AM
The sad thing is, he probably only did this specifically because lawmakers have constantly been spouting "anyone can walk into a women's room and claim to be trans," where not a single person probably would have thought about it and it would never have been an issue had they not opened their big stupid mouths.

I guess the question remains, what do we need to do in order to have our rights? How can we draft legislation that allows trans and intersex people to use the bathroom that matches their identity rather than the gender marker on their birth certificates with full protections while also not letting non-trans people do stupid crap like this just because they can?

I don't like it but..... i'm thinking that a possible solution is going to be that we have to carry a card issued from a medical professional or another authorized authority stating that we are transgender and we have to produce it on demand. Possessing such a card would give us full legal protection.

This "solution" would cause huge problems for those of us that are not full time, those of us who are not transitioning or are unable to transition, and those of us who are not currently under the care of a medical professional.

Quote from: Peep on February 17, 2016, 09:38:52 AM
People really are petty, aren't they

If as many people that care about the bathroom myth cared about the street and domestic violence against women and children we'd be able to solve a lot of problems. They want cis-female only bathrooms, but if someone suggested female only taxi services or streets to prevent women being attacked - the exact same reason they want segregated bathrooms - then there'd be a not-all-men kind of outcry. Why are safe spaces scoffed at until it means they can persecute someone?

Most (if not all) of the sensitivity to this is because of the literally naked feeling people have when using toilets or showers...to them, it invites rape.

Perhaps this is an angle we could work on to reduce their fear? At least the general public's fear?

Quote from: Eva Marie on February 17, 2016, 09:41:53 AM
I don't like it but..... i'm thinking that a possible solution is going to be that we have to carry a card issued from a medical professional or another authorized authority stating that we are transgender and we have to produce it on demand. Possessing such a card would give us full legal protection.

This "solution" would cause huge problems for those of us that are not full time, those of us who are not transitioning or are unable to transition, and those of us who are not currently under the care of a medical professional.

I have an "F" on my d/l...not everyone does, even many who pass better than me (and I don't).

Quote from: Eva Marie on February 17, 2016, 09:41:53 AM
I don't like it but..... i'm thinking that a possible solution is going to be that we have to carry a card issued from a medical professional or another authorized authority stating that we are transgender and we have to produce it on demand. Possessing such a card would give us full legal protection.

This "solution" would cause huge problems for those of us that are not full time, those of us who are not transitioning or are unable to transition, and those of us who are not currently under the care of a medical professional.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 17, 2016, 09:47:11 AM
I have an "F" on my d/l...not everyone does, even many who pass better than me (and I don't).

Yeah, therein lies the problem. Some states have regressive ID laws where you can't change the gender marker on your driver's license unless you've also changed the gender marker on your birth certificate, most states still require surgery for that, and heck, if you're born in Ohio but live in Michigan, you can't ever change either because since Michigan requires an amended birth certificate to change your ID and Ohio never lets you change your birth certificate even after surgery, tough luck, you're up the creek.

Unless EVERY single state adopts progressive legislation to allow trans people to change gender markers on IDs, this isn't a feasible solution. And even then, even if we were at that point, there are a LOT of people who can't even afford IDs, let alone afford the medical approval required to get the letters required to change the gender markers on those IDs. This would basically be setting up a classist system where only middle/upper-class trans people were allowed to use the right bathroom, and non-binary people or anyone who wants to present as various sexes without medically transitioning would be up the creek too.

I propose that anyone caught abusing this law be sentenced to immediate hormonal and surgical reassignment. 

If that penalty were given, guys like that wouldn't abuse the law.


Sapere Aude

Sadly, at some point once one of these laws is passed, some legislator will decide that breaking that law is a sex crime and put us on the sexual offenders list.

As citizens, we are capable of introducing bills to change bathroom usage laws, birth certificate rules, drivers license rules, etc. But we don't. Johnny Churchgoer gets off his butt to try to keep us out of restrooms, and our response is to complain rather than do something to help ourselves. Introduce a bill, people. No one is going to do it for you.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Carrie Liz on February 17, 2016, 10:13:29 AM


Yeah, therein lies the problem. Some states have regressive ID laws where you can't change the gender marker on your driver's license unless you've also changed the gender marker on your birth certificate, most states still require surgery for that, and heck, if you're born in Ohio but live in Michigan, you can't ever change either because since Michigan requires an amended birth certificate to change your ID and Ohio never lets you change your birth certificate even after surgery, tough luck, you're up the creek.

Unless EVERY single state adopts progressive legislation to allow trans people to change gender markers on IDs, this isn't a feasible solution. And even then, even if we were at that point, there are a LOT of people who can't even afford IDs, let alone afford the medical approval required to get the letters required to change the gender markers on those IDs. This would basically be setting up a classist system where only middle/upper-class trans people were allowed to use the right bathroom, and non-binary people or anyone who wants to present as various sexes without medically transitioning would be up the creek too.

I know all of that Carrie. As I said I don't like it for the reasons that I (and you) listed - It's too much like "papers please".  Still, a proposal like could eventually be proposed by a lawmaker at some point.

What would happen if a cis man went into the ladies' room claiming to be trans? I mean claiming that he was assigned female at birth and is on HRT etc.

This sounds like a person taking a good law and using it to further his own end. Just the thing the example bigoted people would use against transgender people.

Love,
Clare

Look in a sense, people need to get over bathrooms and locker rooms. Partial or whole nudity for whatever time is required does not equal danger. It is silly to equate it as such. People should choose the side that matches their identity without needing a note from home, explaining themselves, or meeting anyone's standard in my opinion. The second they abuse that right like sitting there staring at people, they find themselves out on the street and asked not to return. The police call follows that.

Clearly this guy was a jerk if i am reading the story right, there are jerks the world over.

i love Germany, in many public facilities some toilets and many locker rooms are only gender segregated as far as there are cubicles that can and are often not used for additional privacy. Everyone showers, everyone does their business and leaves. That is a better model. 

But you can bet a bunch of trans people unable to afford the cost of reassignment would "abuse" the law in order to be sentenced to the "punishment." 

Quote from: Deborah on February 17, 2016, 10:41:40 AM
I propose that anyone caught abusing this law be sentenced to immediate hormonal and surgical reassignment. 

If that penalty were given, guys like that wouldn't abuse the law.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: RobynD on February 17, 2016, 05:14:00 PM
i love Germany, in many public facilities some toilets and many locker rooms are only gender segregated as far as there are cubicles that can and are often not used for additional privacy. Everyone showers, everyone does their business and leaves. That is a better model.

That must be the place I was thinking of. It was years ago. I didn't know they did that with locker rooms though.

Quote from: Emileeeee on February 17, 2016, 05:32:17 PM
That must be the place I was thinking of. It was years ago. I didn't know they did that with locker rooms though.

Yes if you go to spas, health clubs, pools, hotel facilities etc. most are gender neutral. People see each other naked. It's no big deal. Those that are very modest use the cubicles.

So (a needle pulling tread), a person that expresses she's a transgender woman can't use the appropriate gender locker room because she looks like a man?  So what makes a woman, what does one look like?

Added: I did not use the women's locker room or go to a women spa until after SRS.

Anne

EOM

nice dress

Quote from: Eva Marie on February 17, 2016, 09:41:53 AM
I don't like it but..... i'm thinking that a possible solution is going to be that we have to carry a card issued from a medical professional or another authorized authority stating that we are transgender and we have to produce it on demand. Possessing such a card would give us full legal protection.

This "solution" would cause huge problems for those of us that are not full time, those of us who are not transitioning or are unable to transition, and those of us who are not currently under the care of a medical professional.

I don't totally agree with your solution since like others have said, some people can't easily get there gender marker changed but it may be the only choice we have in the end. Someone in Mississippi just introduced a bathroom bill that DOES allow for a transgender exception.

House Bill 1258 (http://billstatus.ls.state.ms.us/documents/2016/html/HB/1200-1299/HB1258IN.htm)

Quote(3)  Any person who has been consuming, for a period of not less than twelve (12) months, hormone pills or supplements prescribed by a licensed medical doctor for the purpose of transitioning to a gender other than the gender he or she was assigned at birth may use the restroom or bath facilities of the gender he or she is transitioning to provided that he or she can provide written proof from his or her doctor regarding the hormone pill or supplement transition plan.

Again though this causes issues with some transgender individuals and 12 months of HRT being a requirement is not realistic. Some people pass pre-HRT.

Papers to pee isn't the answer I want to see, but may be the only solution to this issue.

a million trans march to occupy all the toilets in the Capitol at the same time. Oh! wait there is only 700000 of us.

When a trans woman uses the lady's room there is no man in the lady's room.   When a trans male uses the lady's room there is a man in the lady's room.   Now you are saying a man used the lady's room then there was a man in the lady's room and he should have been dealt with as such.   I have been using the lady's room for 8 years and with most of them being one seaters or two stalls.   There is little differences from the men's room except for a place to put lady's hygienic pads for their periods.   There is no problem.

Now when it comes to dressing rooms for swimming pools, gyms, and PE classes in schools,  I have never dealt with that because at 69 these are not an issue for me because I never go to these places.   The ocean is a wide open place with no dressing rooms and I just wear a one-piece.   

Most trans women are not interested in having anyone seeing their private parts, especially when they have not had surgery in those spots yet.    I would have a bigger problem because my breasts are just wearing two padded bras and in the dressing rooms, it would be obvious that I do not have breasts yet.   If I need to, I would just use the ladies room to enter the gym or the pool and take care of showering and changing at home.

But since a trans woman who identifies as a woman would never be a man in the lady's restroom or dressing room.   Each person finds a way to keep their private parts private.   Go to a gym that protects your privacy.    Swimming pools you could just wear your swimming suit under a pool dress, then get out take your shower in your swimming suit and put on your pool dress and leave.   In the gym, just wear sweats and shower and dress at home.

Still events like this worry me. I'm concerned that some may take that and decide to change the rules again. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: Mariah2014 on February 17, 2016, 10:14:25 PM
Still events like this worry me. I'm concerned that some may take that and decide to change the rules again. Hugs
Mariah

Campaign launched to repeal bathroom rule

http://www.king5.com/story/news/politics/state/2016/02/18/campaign-launched-repeal-bathroom-rule/80542616/

(Sent from KING 5)

Since the bill to repeal our rights failed in Olympia, now someone is going the initiative route.

According to the "trending" link at the top of the page this was done as a publicity stunt. Male conservatives are being encouraged to do this to force a backlash and to cause anti-trans laws to be passed. The article said that female conservatives were also being encouraged to do the same in male spaces, but maybe if they do they'll encounter the same situations that we are afraid of if we are forced by law to do the same thing.

In other words they intend to artificially force situations to occur to get legislation passed to prevent a situation.... that isn't happening. The situations are not happening because this isn't something that we do. Their fears are completely unfounded, and it's resulting in hate & discrimination.

Hysteria & fear mongering at work to our detriment  :(

Quote from: RobynD on February 17, 2016, 05:14:00 PM
Look in a sense, people need to get over bathrooms and locker rooms. Partial or whole nudity for whatever time is required does not equal danger. It is silly to equate it as such. People should choose the side that matches their identity without needing a note from home, explaining themselves, or meeting anyone's standard in my opinion. The second they abuse that right like sitting there staring at people, they find themselves out on the street and asked not to return. The police call follows that.

Clearly this guy was a jerk if i am reading the story right, there are jerks the world over.

i love Germany, in many public facilities some toilets and many locker rooms are only gender segregated as far as there are cubicles that can and are often not used for additional privacy. Everyone showers, everyone does their business and leaves. That is a better model.

Actually, it very much does. The two most common things said after an attack are, "I didn't think it could happen here", and "It happened so fast!"

Of course, in a public toilet one has a simple latch to keep the door closed, but it would not keep a determined attacker out...and once inside, you couldn't pull up your pants nor fight back.

We need to address their fears--not dismiss them--in order to win public support.

Quote from: OCAnne on February 17, 2016, 06:42:05 PM
So (a needle pulling tread), a person that expresses she's a transgender woman can't use the appropriate gender locker room because she looks like a man?  So what makes a woman, what does one look like?

Added: I did not use the women's locker room or go to a women spa until after SRS.

Anne

EOM

The person in the first article apparently never identified himself as trans, simply took of his shirt and said he could because of the "use gender appropriate to one's identity" rule. Conservatives think that men would do that just to gain access to the women's room for prurient purposes, and that is what this person was demonstrating (hopefully not for real).

I started using the women's room after men started looking at me in ways that made me feel uncomfortable. Most were indifferent, but there were several times I saw angry and/or leering faces.

The comments on that article are frightening. I cannot believe that people really are that concerned with the genitals of another person that they do not know. Also "thanks" Johns Hopkins for giving these mouth breathers an excuse to claim that we are all "pretending". Ugh. There are so many commenters that claim we will be in there exposing ourselves and our genitals to young girls when I think, and maybe it's just me, that would be the absolute last thing a trans person would be doing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Argh

Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 18, 2016, 07:52:26 AM
Campaign launched to repeal bathroom rule

http://www.king5.com/story/news/politics/state/2016/02/18/campaign-launched-repeal-bathroom-rule/80542616/

(Sent from KING 5)

Since the bill to repeal our rights failed in Olympia, now someone is going the initiative route.

This article has been floating around on >-bleeped-< and it makes sense as to what this guy is probably doing

QuoteOver the last two months, Facebook users who support the anti-trans discrimination bills in the state legislature have been suggesting that men invade those spaces in order to drum up support for the legislation.

Unfortunately creating laws to prevent transgender discrimination has put us on the radar and this is the unfortunate result.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 18, 2016, 08:58:23 AM
Actually, it very much does. The two most common things said after an attack are, "I didn't think it could happen here", and "It happened so fast!"

Of course, in a public toilet one has a simple latch to keep the door closed, but it would not keep a determined attacker out...and once inside, you couldn't pull up your pants nor fight back.

We need to address their fears--not dismiss them--in order to win public support.

I disagree on some points, German society is a prime example of how it is done correctly. The amount of sexual assault, recording, even complaints of leering, that go on in bathrooms and locker areas worldwide is minuscule compared to the usage of these places.

Compare this to the amount of such assault that goes on at concerts, festivals or in bars where alcohol is freely flowing for instance.  82% of assaults are by a non-stranger. That doesn't mean the other 18% are to be written off, but again we have people focusing on a very small danger applied to a very large right - the right to pee or take a shower after a swim.

Gosh- I'm a statist and i am almost sounding like a libertarian - i scare myself.

I agree with you though that fears are real, whether they are statistical or not and they have to be addressed.

Transgender people should not have to carry "papers" or wear a symbol on their clothing or whatever to do what is a basic right of all people. Make no mistake about it, this is just another attempt by conservatives to keep fighting and unwinnable "culture war" and maintain some control over society.

Quote from: Jessie Ann on February 17, 2016, 05:17:10 PM
But you can bet a bunch of trans people unable to afford the cost of reassignment would "abuse" the law in order to be sentenced to the "punishment."

That's not a defect; it's a feature.  ;)

Folks really, if a person claims they are a woman regardless of how they look then they are a woman right?  Are we really going to start an ACLU issue because the 'person' does not look like a woman?  Was Caitlyn Jenner right when she famously stated she did not want to look like a guy in a dress?

Do we need to meet some passing standard to self identify as a woman?

In my mind only one thing makes me a woman and I don't need to show papers to prove it.

Like the person in the article your opinion might vary.

Thank you,
Anne

EOM

I started my transition under the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, and my therapist gave me a letter to carry with me that stated I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria and that I was transitioning and on HRT. My therapist advised me to carry the letter with me prior to my legal name and gender change, while I was out dressed and to show it to an officer if I was pulled over, or questioned about using the ladies room. Do therapists still issue these types of carry letters?

I've never showed my ID, nor asked permission to use the facilities. I do make eye contact with women in the common areas and just say, "Hi" if I sense a question. Otherwise, I just go about my business, without any sense of guilt, shame, or anger...you know, just like all other women do.

So we have the Evangelical Right who consider themselves paragons of virtue and protectors of truth creating an issue where none previously existed.  Or we could say that since they have no facts they engage in subterfuge.  All of that done simply to score a political victory.  I see.

Their religion is a joke.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: kittenpower on February 18, 2016, 11:40:55 AM
I started my transition under the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, and my therapist gave me a letter to carry with me that stated I was diagnosed with gender dysphoric and that I was transitioning and on HRT. My therapist advised me to carry the letter with me prior to my legal name and gender change, while I was out dressed and to show it to an officer if I was pulled over, or questioned about using the ladies room. Do therapists still issue these types of carry letters?

My therapist offered to give one but said in NJ its not really an issue with the anti-discrimination laws here and my HRT doctor did give me one and I never had to use it. I started using the women's bathroom at 3 1/2 months of HRT and at 6 1/2 months I had my ID changed with my female name and gender marker. NJ makes it fairly painless. The gender was easy to change compared to my name with the scare of identity theft and so forth. I've never been questions at all in the bathrooms or the locker room at the gym. (I only change down to panties and with my tuck no one can tell I'll pre-op or trans.) Even with the laws in NJ on my side, I would not want to take everything off being pre-op in the ladies locker room. It's uncomfortable to me and I know it would make other women uncomfortable. I think that's a common sense approach.

Won't the police pay him a visit and ask him to explain himself? I am pretty sure they would here and maybe prosecute if he is really is a guy deliberately invading the girls locker room to cause a disturbance.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on February 18, 2016, 03:05:54 PM
Won't the police pay him a visit and ask him to explain himself? I am pretty sure they would here and maybe prosecute if he is really is a guy deliberately invading the girls locker room to cause a disturbance.

No because technically he is within the law by being there, if he identifies as a woman. It is trolling activism by people who want to spend their energy hurting others.

Now if he is at all disruptive in said locker room, he loiters for too long, he stares or leers, harasses in any way, management can ask him to leave and not return.

If he then is disruptive in leaving or returns, the police can be involved, trespassing and disturbing the peace are two possible laws he would be breaking at that point.

But they say he didn't identify as a woman and the police would therefore check that right?

I imagine that it's hard to pin down specifically and legally whether one identifies one way or not.  The more I think about it the more I think that the whole bathroom fight is aiming to fight a battle that has already passed in a sense.  As more people begin to explore and identify with something other than binary, the notion of binary restrooms will eventually become passe.  By the time we get any substantial movement in expanding the definitions of who can be in a ladies' room, we going to have another big fight about what to do with those who identify as non-binary or other categories. 

When you go to an outdoor concert or event where there are banks of portable bathrooms, side by side, and sinks off to one side where men and women alike wash up afterwards, it seems that no one has a problem with who's bathroom is next to whom's.  How long before we start to reimagine infrastructure without the notion of separation of the whole room and default to separation of only the stalls or one-person rooms? 

Quote from: Dayta on February 19, 2016, 01:23:42 AM
As more people begin to explore and identify with something other than binary, the notion of binary restrooms will eventually become passe.

The vast majority of people still identify as one of the two binary genders. There are a lot of people who are very uncomfortable sharing a restroom with the opposite gender. (I am non-binary, and sharing a restroom with a man makes me uncomfortable).

I'm troubled by predictions like these for two reasons. First, I feel like we're telling people what they'll want, and second, it perpetuates the notion that we want to remake society (rather than just having a safe place to pee.)

Society 'remakes'  itself all the time.

Besides, gender neutral facilities doesn't have to require a shift in society, it just accommodates one that is already happening.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on February 19, 2016, 06:47:16 AM
Society 'remakes'  itself all the time.

Besides, gender neutral facilities doesn't have to require a shift in society, it just accommodates one that is already happening.

I agree.

On the first point, there is a difference between society remaking itself and society imposing changes on people who are not comfortable with them. I claim that the vast majority of people still favor restrooms that they do not share with the other binary gender.

On the second point, yes, gender neutral facilities are a great idea. But it's a long way from making gender neutral facilities available to getting rid of all gendered facilities.

I don't know. Its not like you actually mix the genders in gender neutral changing or restrooms.

I also don't see the problem in phasing gendered facilities out. In the UK we have a requirement for all facilities to support disabled people where at all possible (The only real exception is for listed, historic buildings). Almost everywhere has had disabled loos fitted. It didn't cause any real problems. What difference would changing gender specific facilities to single occupancy restrooms take? Sure a bit of expense, but tell businesses it will be a requirement in 5 years and then do it... No real problem.

Quote from: Deborah on February 17, 2016, 10:41:40 AM
I propose that anyone caught abusing this law be sentenced to immediate hormonal and surgical reassignment. 

If that penalty were given, guys like that wouldn't abuse the law.


Sapere Aude

I'm agree a person who abuse the law should get a punishment. Maybe a fine or some months prison would be a nice punishment for that person. If they aren't mature enough or have a mental illness, the government should considering to help them. But I'm very disagree with you forcing a person to undergo a 'gender change' surgery and opposite gender hormones if that's a cis person who's abusing the law. Because it's a line between punishment and breaking the humans rights. Making hormones would cost a bit. Not enough with that, surgery would cost a lot of times and moneys as well. The resource should we rather use at people who really need it, not criminals. They belongs to the prisons. It's unethical to experiment at people like that and it would cause a lot of gender dysphoria.

I don't wish gender dysphoria or doing someone else to transgender, even not my worst enemy. There are people who do harmful acts and crimes, but we have to prove them respect is a positive thing. Then we have to show them a bit respect and not put them in unethical experiments that may be permanent and damage them.

The only Papers I ever carried was my name change form for a short time after I changed it but before I got all my other paperwork fixed, I still keep a copy in my car with my registration, it has been changed but they never sent a new copy so the one in my car has my old name on it. Then again I live in massachusetts things are good here in regards to being trans.

I swear the US is going to be a painful holdout on mixed gender locker rooms and bathrooms. We are a culture where public Television is perfectly ok with a show that depicts in graphic detail a man gunning down a half dozen other people after assaulting a helpless prisoner to get information from him. But show just one bum, or a single female Nipple and someone is getting sued and fired.

we are a country that is so terrified of nudity that we arrest women breast feeding and TV is trying to convince me that after sex most women put there bra back on before going to sleep and that everyone shyly gets out of bed using the sheets to cover themselves so that there spouse of 10 years wont see them naked.

Serena, Sick of humanity

We have no problem watching videos of people getting killed or demanding to see a corpse after a raid, but not being able to sexualize the female body? Oh heck no! Allowing everybody to pee in peace? Why would you suggest such a thing?

The bathroom debate never really worried me until now. I'm wondering if I'm going to be allowed to pee on vacation this year.

I'd just like to point out something I'm surprised no one has yet. This happened in the US. And, let's face it, the United States, despite being the "land of the free," and boasting about how it protects people and allows freedoms and everything, does not.
Seriously. I think the only thing that is going on in the states is that we are making so many "protections" that we are actually starting to unprotect people. We have a right to bear arms. I don't own a gun. I have no criminal record whatsoever. So, I go out, buy an automatic rifle (which, apparently is required to take down a deer.... ??), and I could walk to my local mall and take out hundreds of people. Why? Because I have a right to carry a gun. Protected? I was. But not those people in the mall.
It's the same thing really. Let's "protect" cis people. We wouldn't want "creepy men" abusing the system. When really, the conservatives are worried about a non-passing trans woman coming in. But, let's face it (and I'm being truthfully honest without trying to hurt feelings), there are some cis women who might not pass as women.
At this point, with concern to protections and such, the United States was probably better off under English rule. Sure, there are conservatives all over the world. However, as far as laws and progress are concerned, the United States is far behind other countries. The fact that conservatives are encouraging such behavior as a man deliberately abusing the rule to make a point is sickening. It just proves how sick our government is. And that is not to say the liberals aren't that way too. They have their own faults as well. But, I must bring this whole thing to one point.
IT HAPPENED IN THE U.S. Point made.

Point not made.

In our case, we are harmless (non-aggressive), and we want the right to pee in piece. The general population (the conservatives) are the ones who are the aggressors in the bathroom.

To compare a rifleman in a mall to this case, the rifleman has to be non-aggressive (even though he is carrying a rifle), and the mall patrons, upon seeing him, feel threatened and beat him en masse.

Clearly the general population is in the wrong. One cannot defend while at the same time doing a pre-emptive strike.

Keep in mind that there are many rifles out there, and probably 100 times as many penises...the threat of a typical rifleman going berserk just because he has a rifle is about the same as a typical man who might rape, just because he has a penis. And both "going berserk" and "rape" are crimes, which can only be prosecuted after the fact.

That's what is so great about the US...we are innocent until proven guilty. The State must not be allowed to curtail our Liberties in the name of safety.

Imho

My point wasn't to imply that we're threatening, but that in the US, there is always someone who will abuse the freedoms we are given.

I am actually amazed at all the fuss unless You use open toilets over there .as I see it you are all in separate cubicles as far as I am aware nobody disrobes before entering their cubical You lower your clothing do your business and readjust Your clothing before leaving the cubical .So where is the threat to personal privacy You can not see anybody and nobody can see you whilst You are actually on the throne so what is the problem .I have yet to see another Woman in a state of undress in a restroom .what are they worried about

Quote from: ToniB on March 02, 2016, 10:05:39 AM
I am actually amazed at all the fuss unless You use open toilets over there .as I see it you are all in separate cubicles as far as I am aware nobody disrobes before entering their cubical You lower your clothing do your business and readjust Your clothing before leaving the cubical .So where is the threat to personal privacy You can not see anybody and nobody can see you whilst You are actually on the throne so what is the problem .I have yet to see another Woman in a state of undress in a restroom .what are they worried about

The only two things I can attribute this to, having started a sort of trans revolution over restroom use at my place of employment, is that some women here are squicked by the thought of a man hearing them pee or poop or that the thought of a naked penis hidden "only!" by a two inch thick piece of wood makes them nervous. Many Americans have always been especially touchy about anything even vaguely sexual and feel that women should be considered as like a Barbie doll between the legs. Our own odd little purdah, I fear.

By the way, we have won the battle at my store. Personnel has made it clear that we're within our rights.

Quote from: suzifrommd on February 17, 2016, 08:56:13 AM
However, this incident points a to a grave miscalculation on the part of trans rights activists. We've been touting the fact that no one has ever done this, while we all know full well it was only a matter of time when someone did.

Good point. And now it has happened once. Appropriate presentation is called for. I am a full-time female and I've used only women's public restrooms/toilets since going full-time and Ive never had any issues with restrooms use. Never asked for ID. Although my ID (passport) is female if I were ever to be asked.

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on February 18, 2016, 01:19:07 PM
My therapist offered to give one but said in NJ its not really an issue with the anti-discrimination laws here and my HRT doctor did give me one and I never had to use it. I started using the women's bathroom at 3 1/2 months of HRT and at 6 1/2 months I had my ID changed with my female name and gender marker. NJ makes it fairly painless. The gender was easy to change compared to my name with the scare of identity theft and so forth. I've never been questions at all in the bathrooms or the locker room at the gym. (I only change down to panties and with my tuck no one can tell I'll pre-op or trans.) Even with the laws in NJ on my side, I would not want to take everything off being pre-op in the ladies locker room. It's uncomfortable to me and I know it would make other women uncomfortable. I think that's a common sense approach.

Your approach is commendable.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 17, 2016, 11:12:11 AM
As citizens, we are capable of introducing bills to change bathroom usage laws, birth certificate rules, drivers license rules, etc. But we don't. Johnny Churchgoer gets off his butt to try to keep us out of restrooms, and our response is to complain rather than do something to help ourselves. Introduce a bill, people. No one is going to do it for you.

Hugs, Devlyn

This is a great idea. Anyone with law degrees want in?