Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In some other threads some people have expressed the opinion that SRS should be strictly limited to TS and IS inviduals. However some (probably a small minority) of androgynes wish to have SRS as well. Do you think this should be allowed?

I'm especially interested on the negative views expressed in some threads and *why* it should not be allowed.

you gotta do with ur body what u wanna do.  if ppl wanna do with there bodies whatever they want, they should get it.  dont see a problem. :) :) :)

This should be fun ;-)

Can I request the thread gets moved to somewhere more widely travelled, maybe the transgender section?  In here it'll mainly only get seen by other androgynes.

GRS to reassign gender? (GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY)  I thought androgynes did not identify with any gender.  No gender, bi-gendered, null, what else is there?  All these labels do not point to any particular gender.  That's the idea of being an androgyne, innit?  Why then should they want GRS? 

Quote from: Butterfly on October 10, 2007, 04:25:43 AM
GRS to reassign gender? (GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY)  I thought androgynes did not identify with any gender.  No gender, bi-gendered, null, what else is there?  All these labels do not point to any particular gender.  That's the idea of being an androgyne, innit?  Why then should they want GRS? 

No gender and bi-gendered don't define the nature of a persons gender?!  I don't identify with either of the two generally accepted genders but I have a gender of my own and I know what it is and how my body should be to match that.  I want genital surgery for pretty much the same reason a m2f or f2m does, to make myself whole.

Gender Reassignment Surgery is a stupid term, are all m2fs men before they have genital surgery?  Would this not imply that pre-ops have no right to use the facilities of the gender they identify as?

Quote from: Butterfly on October 10, 2007, 04:25:43 AM
GRS to reassign gender?

No, SRS to reassign physical sex. Having dysphoria about one's physical sex is often tied with having dysphoria about one's gender role, but not necessarily. The common definition of transsexual implies both; those with only the latter are often called transgenderists or non-op transsexuals. Androgynes are a more varied group and can have different mixes of the two different (but related) dysphorias. It's certainly possible for someone to have a physical dysphoria severe enough to want SRS, without desiring a major change in their gender role.

  Nfr

Its been covered many times before but there is not a solid correlation between what someones gender is and what sex they are. Because you can find all genders and gender variants occuring with both sexs and IS, the two are seperate attributes about someone. Thus ones perception of how they want to look so that their physical body matches their gender/or lack there of, should really be up to the person.

To answer the question, if they feel SRS is what will allow them to achieve this goal, they should be allowed do receive SRS.

M&M

Yes. A person should have access to treatments to match their body with internal sense of gender. No different for androgyne, intersex, TS, etc.

y2g

14th Amendment - Citizenship Rights

Quote...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...

Liberty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty

It all depends on your view of liberty.
Personally I am a proponent of 'Negative Liberty' which is defined, essentially, as:

Quote...one is considered free to the extent to which no person interferes with his or her activity...

So, essentially, as long as what you do does not harm others.
You are legally sane.
You take responsibility for your own actions and decisions.

You should be free to do whatever you want with your own body and NO ONE should be able to take that right away. Ever. For Any Reason.

Jessica

Quote from: Butterfly on October 10, 2007, 04:25:43 AM
GRS to reassign gender? (GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY)  I thought androgynes did not identify with any gender.  No gender, bi-gendered, null, what else is there?  All these labels do not point to any particular gender.  That's the idea of being an androgyne, innit?  Why then should they want GRS? 

I imagine there are some who would like to be reassigned to be genderless.

Posted on: October 10, 2007, 11:30:08 AM

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Quote from: Andra on October 10, 2007, 04:53:07 AM
Gender Reassignment Surgery is a stupid term, are all m2fs men before they have genital surgery?  Would this not imply that pre-ops have no right to use the facilities of the gender they identify as?

I prefer the term "Genital Reconstruction Surgery."

Quote from: Butterfly on October 10, 2007, 04:25:43 AM
GRS to reassign gender? (GENDER REASSIGNMENT SURGERY)  I thought androgynes did not identify with any gender.  No gender, bi-gendered, null, what else is there?  All these labels do not point to any particular gender.  That's the idea of being an androgyne, innit?  Why then should they want GRS? 

The term Gender Reassignment Surgery is a misnomer.

Unless I am mistaken transsexuals are their 'chosen gender' (another misnomer) before their surgery, just as they are the same gender after.  Their gender was not reassigned.  Their genitals were changed to match their gender.

Really that argument can be dismantled with three words:

<b> Sex Reassignment Surgery </b>

As we all know:  your sex and your gender are completely separate things.  You are blessed when they match because (as most members on this forum understand) it is a painful and difficult experience when they don't.

I second Lisbeth's "Genital Reconstruction Surgery" term.

And I don't see any reason why Androgynes shouldn't have this surgery if thats what suits their interior expression of themselves.

without a doubt it should be allowed... a person has a right to feel comfortable in a body they will spend their entire life in.

I'm sure I'm opening myself up for a thumping, but I envision a gender spectrum, much as I envision an orientation spectrum.  So, of course anyone should have whatever genitals that match their minds view of who the person is.

Sheesh

Bev

I said yes.

If people are allowed to do this..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=487039&in_page_id=1965

And they are willing to take responsibility for their decisions I say why not??? They should not be allowed to sue though.

Quote from: Lori on October 11, 2007, 09:22:45 PM
If people are allowed to do this..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=487039&in_page_id=1965

And they are willing to take responsibility for their decisions I say why not??? They should not be allowed to sue though.

I'm going to be sick now...  :eusa_sick:

I have met a few guys who have a "third" leg though.  >:D (not an implant, just natural "growth"  LOL  ;D)

tink :icon_chick:

Re: Should androgynes be allowed SRS?

no they shouldn't.  grs is designed for severely gender dysphoric people. that's the reason they don't get it now, because they don't meet the diagnosis criteria.

Quote from: Katia on October 12, 2007, 01:56:07 AM
no they shouldn't.  grs is designed for severely gender dysphoric people. that's the reason they don't get it now, because they don't meet the diagnosis criteria.

There's something I don't quite understand here. It seems you are saying that anyone who has severe enough dysphoria about their genitals will always identify as the gender opposite to their birth sex -- that is, someone born male who is dysphoric enough to warrant SRS must identify as a woman, and vice versa. The diagnostic criteria seem to assume such a coupling between sex and gender, but is it really a reasonable assumption? There are, after all, people whose existence seems to challenge this; Kate Bornstein springs to mind as a pretty well-known example.

Then again, our society is rather deeply gender-binary, and someone who has SRS will be seen as swithching eir gender. In that sense it's not possible to be truly androgyne, but that's a slightly different issue.

  Nfr

Quote from: Katia on October 12, 2007, 01:56:07 AM
Re: Should androgynes be allowed SRS?

no they shouldn't.  grs is designed for severely gender dysphoric people. that's the reason they don't get it now, because they don't meet the diagnosis criteria.

Actually, some portions of the androgyne community (if we're using the wider definition that's usually used on this forum) ARE severely gender dysphoric, particularly a fair proportion of null-gender people.  The WPATH diagnostic criteria are not as restrictive as a lot of therapists interpret them, they talk a lot about gender identity in a non-binary way.  I am managing pretty well so far to be treated under a professional following the standards of care while *shock* *horror* being open about my gender variant status.

From something you yourself pasted (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14595.msg110969.html#msg110969) to the forums:

Quote
GENDER DYSPHORIA: Literally, it is being unhappy with the gender you are (physically anatomically, prior to changing anything). Full-blown gender dysphoria syndrome is the same as transsexualism.

Quote from: Andra on October 12, 2007, 02:34:48 AM

Quote from: Katia on October 12, 2007, 01:56:07 AM
Re: Should androgynes be allowed SRS?

no they shouldn't.  grs is designed for severely gender dysphoric people. that's the reason they don't get it now, because they don't meet the diagnosis criteria.

Actually, some portions of the androgyne community (if we're using the wider definition that's usually used on this forum) ARE severely gender dysphoric, particularly a fair proportion of null-gender people.  The WPATH diagnostic criteria are not as restrictive as a lot of therapists interpret them, they talk a lot about gender identity in a non-binary way.  I am managing pretty well so far to be treated under a professional following the standards of care while *shock* *horror* being open about my gender variant status.

From something you yourself pasted (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14595.msg110969.html#msg110969) to the forums:

Quote
GENDER DYSPHORIA: Literally, it is being unhappy with the gender you are (physically anatomically, prior to changing anything). Full-blown gender dysphoria syndrome is the same as transsexualism.

then you shouldn't expect any problems, should cha?  still i stand by what i said.  androgynes shouldn't get grs, yet if you can prove to a therapist (not to me) that you are severely dysphoric by following the standards and completing the rle, then it should be a piece of cake, shouldn't it?

Quote from: Katia on October 12, 2007, 02:48:08 AM
then you shouldn't expect any problems, should cha?  still i stand by what i said.  androgynes shouldn't get grs, yet if you can prove to a therapist (not to me) that you are severely dysphoric by following the standards and completing the rle, then it should be a piece of cake, shouldn't it?

It's proving a lot easier than I expected.  Wouldn't be the same for everybody everywhere as like I said a lot of therapists are still thinking in a rather binary fashion.  Only 4 1/2 months into my RLT but already spoken to a surgeon who's happy to do what I want when I have both psych letters. \o/

Quote from: Katia on October 12, 2007, 02:48:08 AM
then you shouldn't expect any problems, should cha?  still i stand by what i said.  androgynes shouldn't get grs, yet if you can prove to a therapist (not to me) that you are severely dysphoric by following the standards and completing the rle, then it should be a piece of cake, shouldn't it?

You contradicted yourself Katia...   you still think androgynes shouldn't get SRS...... but if Andra is dysphoric enough to qualify, thats ok with you? (not that it matters)  You're aware that Andra is androgyne? (used as the umbrella term)

And .. out of curiosity... GRS.  How did you reassign your gender? were you male before surgery?

Quote from: Alison on October 12, 2007, 03:14:38 AM
You contradicted yourself Katia...

i did? i don't think so

Quote from: Alison on October 12, 2007, 03:14:38 AM
 you still think androgynes shouldn't get SRS...... but if Andra is dysphoric enough to qualify, thats ok with you? (not that it matters)  You're aware that Andra is androgyne? (used as the umbrella term)

i dont think they should, yet a therapist may agree to put his signature on the grs consent.  i sure wouldn't. ha ha.  what i'm aware of isn't relevant but you know what is? the therapist's opinion.  consequently, a therapist might have a different diagnosis for andra.  dunno.

Quote from: Alison on October 12, 2007, 03:14:38 AM
And .. out of curiosity... GRS.  How did you reassign your gender? were you male before surgery?

ha ha ha ha , no, no, no, no, no, no! grs stands for genital reassignment surgery, capiche?   oh sweet naiveness!

What you're saying is that if enough Gender Dysphoria exists in an individual, they should be allowed to get SRS done? In cases where this occurs in an Androgyne, that should still be allowed?

If someone doesn't feel right enough in their body that they experience that much dysphoria, they're the ones that are going to get SRS done anyways. I believe you're just interested in SRS being reserved for people who need it enough so that the act itself doesn't become trivial and nonimportant.

I can certainly see where you're coming from on that as long as you're not excluding the androgynes just because they don't feel entirely one of the gender binaries. Supposedly gender and sex are still seperate and so you shouldn't consider the gender when determining what sex someone is supposed to look like.

Just some thoughts

M&M

Yes and No
It's depending of the individu.
For some people it's maybe okay, but their might be other people that it's not a good option.
Cause I believe that people that see themself as androgyne, sometimes change in their experiences.
example, maybe not the best but just try to explain my thoughts ; transgender or have phases

Quote from: Katia on October 12, 2007, 04:29:11 AM
ha ha ha ha , no, no, no, no, no, no! grs stands for genital reassignment surgery, capiche?   oh sweet naiveness!

Or genital reconstruction surgery. But don't be ashamed of you who are.  Admit it and be proud.  If you deny it, nothing will be gained.  Got that? ;) ~laugh~