Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This state just clarified something pretty obvious about men in women's bathrooms

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/03/03/this-state-just-clarified-something-pretty-obvious-about-men-in-womens-bathrooms/

Pink News
Joseph Patrick McCormick
3rd March 2016, 1:07 AM

The state of Washington has responded to a man who undressed in a women's locker room with a pretty simple explanation.

The state's Human rights Commission issued a release in response to an incident which saw a man undress himself in protest against a new law to allow transgender people use gender-appropriate restrooms.

Seattle Parks and Recreation department last week said they were trying to figure out how to proceed after the man used the rules to walk into the woman's locker room and began to strip.

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One way to get around that is to.

One should be dressed to ones gender identity and they should include this in the law.

That way a male who identifies as a man cannot walk into the women's restroom and wearing men's clothes saying he is TG

Or vice versa.

As the saying goes "dress to impress"... Er... I mean "dress according to what is necessary at least for what you are trying to do."
I mean in the case of that man, simply in male attire and obviously not transgender. Should not have been acceptable in the first place.
What people like this is trying to defend a fear. This fear in itself, in the eyes of people who just simply do not understand us if at all. A fear of public liability, in which they just see us as an excuse to be driven in fear to make irrational decisions.

For one, most if not all of us is modest, especially pre SRS/GRS. We don't really want to be visible to a public enemy, in which causes us the conflict of the masses.

In any case, I do agree that anyone who is anyone be dressed to fit the desired location to fit in. The only note I see an issue with is the fact of standardized androgynous clothing that could just be classified neither by male nor female standards. As well as it doesn't need to be dressed to the extreme as an elegant dress and heels, or suit and tie, etc...

Kate <3

He should be quietly escorted out and not make a big deal of it. He wants media attention. Don't give it to him. Make it a non issue.

Quote from: janetcgtv on March 03, 2016, 01:44:54 PM
One way to get around that is to.

One should be dressed to ones gender identity and they should include this in the law.

That way a male who identifies as a man cannot walk into the women's restroom and wearing men's clothes saying he is TG

Or vice versa.

But then you have the government deciding what are legally 'women's clothes' and what are legally 'men's clothes' and that doesn't sound like a great idea

If you identify as a woman, you are a woman. If your're just a jerk trying to make a political score in order to restrict women's rights, then you should be asked to leave. A guy standing there explaining his right to be there was clearly not using the facility for its intended purpose The problem with any expectations of paper work (yuck) or clothes is that it is either not tenable or arbitrary.

If a trans man just happens to be in a skirt and heels that day, he should feel free to use the men's facilities. Genderfluid and agender people? whichever they feel most comfortable with. Go in, get it done and gone.

If anyone lingers too long in such places management can call it loitering or trespassing and kick them out.

Quote from: Peep on March 03, 2016, 03:50:06 PM

Quote from: janetcgtv on March 03, 2016, 01:44:54 PM
One way to get around that is to.

One should be dressed to ones gender identity and they should include this in the law.

That way a male who identifies as a man cannot walk into the women's restroom and wearing men's clothes saying he is TG

Or vice versa.

But then you have the government deciding what are legally 'women's clothes' and what are legally 'men's clothes' and that doesn't sound like a great idea

Amen. Thanks for saying it.

Hugs, Devlyn

Gees don't you people understand it?
Haven't you heard the expression give a inch then give a mile.

NO minority in the entire history of the world has ever been given freedom and be able to have it the next day.

For example: Gays
they did not fight for marriage equality first as they did the following things.
1. First get it decriminalized
2. Then fight discrimination
3. Then go for marriage equality

Take us: one of the arguments is society is worried about rape and the privacy of their females and want to prevent it from happening.
A law preventing a non-TG male from going to the women's restroom would eliminate their argument. And vice versa for non- TG females How would a non-TG male be defined? How can one decide what a persons intentions are?

Have a nice day?

Janet

I think the courts are used to dealing with shades of gray, and there's not many trans people that are going to risk being in that gray area.

There are Family Changing rooms in places like Germany at the Swim Bath's (Indoor/outdoors swimming pools).  But US is obviously not ready for that. 
What i see the trans community is really dealing with is a gradual acceptance into mainstream society and many who oppose it in their phobias of change, as they opposed racial integration, gay rights and now see trans as a growing threat.
I read a post that recommended being dressed to appropriated gender, a lot of cis women wear clothing that is pretty much indistinguishable from men's wear so that would be hard to enforce as well.  Most trans avoid awkward situations and we know we are not the true problem, we use the bathroom we are comfortable with and are there to do our business and go. 
I think a simple letter from a Therapist would offer protection in situations where alarms are raised for trans people.  Lewd and or criminal behavior be dealt with as it always has been.  And a better solution would be perhaps inclusion of Gender neutral/family changing rooms in larger facilities and more gender neutral bathrooms for the rest.  Birth Markers from Birth certificates are not a solution.  And people who say their are so few tran-sexuals who care's if we hurt them. Haven't stopped to think that rational can be applied to any minority situation.  More public education is the biggest key to finding a workable solution. 

Quote from: RobynD on March 03, 2016, 04:11:38 PM
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If a trans man just happens to be in a skirt and heels that day, he should feel free to use the men's facilities. Genderfluid and agender people? whichever they feel most comfortable with. Go in, get it done and gone.

If anyone lingers too long in such places management can call it loitering or trespassing and kick them out.

I have been in men's restrooms on various occasions when cis-women have entered and used the facilities without incident or recourse.  Do you support the same behavior for men in the women's restrooms?  Why can't we all share the same facilities while respecting one another?  The only necessary facility requirement would have to be private stalls.  The same requirement could also apply to changing rooms.

Sadly some cis gender hetro men do not respect the privacy of women, cis or trans. It would be nice to think humans were mature enough to all share the same facilities regardless of sex or gender identity, maybe one day.

That day of mature people sharing space can start now.  It already happens many places around the globe and where the bathrooms are the bushes or roadside ditch.  There are family restrooms in the US btw, I used one on the interstate highway last week.

The devil is in the details and trying to craft an inclusive law for restroom use is fraught with opportunities for abuse and even further segregation.  I like the idea of all restrooms being multi use.  Put those gross urinals in a stall too!  People get paranoid enough about someone looking.  If the stall is locked use the next one.  Parts of Asia feature shared baths and people have managed that forever.  Genitals and breasts,  big deal, get over it kids!

We don't need to go far, we just need to look around at the reality of diverse people sharing space all the time.  I have a cisgender friend who gets challenged likely because she is tall with a short haircut.  No one needs to look in our pants, panties or restroom stall.

Sure do wish people could get over their regressive fears and infantile obsessions with sexuality sooner than later.

Many states allow a man to take his wife into the ladies room if she is disabled. This whole bathroom issue is a fabricated piece of nonsense about bodily functions. I can not fathom why it is such a big deal. Womens rooms usually all have stalls which provide plenty of privacy. I have used the mens room at crowded concerts and the guys don't mind the steady stream of women to the mostly empty stalls.

Schools are a much more difficult issue for many people. I can empathize with many parents. But really... everyone has to void. It is a normal thing that all mammals do. What sort of pervert wants to watch that? We need to do something to get past this. Visibility is key. We'll need a few court cases. And while that is all going on, we should all be on our best behavior.... like we always are.

Cis girls at my school used to beat up other cis girls in the toilets. I don't know why they think that cis girls are safe with other cis girls. In changing rooms none of us would shower, cause if you did your underwear would get stolen. Girls are just as mean as boys!

Quote from: Peep on April 08, 2016, 11:07:29 AM
Cis girls at my school used to beat up other cis girls in the toilets. I don't know why they think that cis girls are safe with other cis girls. In changing rooms none of us would shower, cause if you did your underwear would get stolen. Girls are just as mean as boys!

Something I wondered about for along time as it appeared from a distance that girls were sooo much nicer on their playground.  :D ;D We live the real life and learn along the way ;D

I never went into a girls' room in high school. Not even once. Between the smoke and the hostility and taunting...  I just held it all day.  Made walking home pretty interesting sometimes.

Quote from: Tysilio on April 08, 2016, 03:27:49 PM
I never went into a girls' room in high school. Not even once. Between the smoke and the hostility and taunting...  I just held it all day.  Made walking home pretty interesting sometimes.

Dang, there are just no sacred cows or places around here ;)  You are crushing my past "girls are nicer" theory of envy. ;D  Guess I will have to assume once again that gender identity or expression is no guarantee of anything?? ;D

Big bladders anyone?

Oh, Tessa, if you think teenage girls are nice, you've led a very sheltered life.  They're vicious, I tell, you, vicious!  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefiringline.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Feek.gif&hash=669241757cc6b77b28c325f022e1bf7b2454d127)

Quote from: Tysilio on April 08, 2016, 03:27:49 PM
I never went into a girls' room in high school. Not even once. Between the smoke and the hostility and taunting...  I just held it all day.  Made walking home pretty interesting sometimes.

I tried to avoid them unless it was truly desperate. No smoking in my time but the constant harassment was a problem. I faced it everywhere in the school and from most students (male and female) but the females were worst and usually the instigators...
Very tough being an intellectual, science nerd, fashion despising, socially awkward teen who argued against gender normative stereotyping in a small town in the early 1990s... everyone thought I was a lesbians because that was the only explanation that made sense to them... meanwhile I was thinking, "no, I like guys... just not the guys here... it's girls I don't understand or particularly like..."

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Clothing styles for women have been expanded to include most traditional men's styles making almost anything acceptable for women. However, the same is not true for men's styles. Clothing alone can't be the defining characteristic.

Quote from: janetcgtv on March 03, 2016, 01:44:54 PM
One way to get around that is to.

One should be dressed to ones gender identity and they should include this in the law.

That way a male who identifies as a man cannot walk into the women's restroom and wearing men's clothes saying he is TG

Or vice versa.

Honestly, I think people should be able to use the bathroom they wish (unisex bathrooms make the most sense to me)... if they are going to enforce anything, it should be based on behaviour in the washroom. Using the toilet/urinal/sinks is ok by anyone... assaulting/harassing anyone is not ok by anyone.
I couldn't care less who is using the next stall as long as they are using it for its intended purpose...

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Arice,

I totally agree. Sexual separation in common areas (sinks, etc.) is not necessary.  A restroom area with several private stalls and one common area for sinks, mirrors, etc. would be the most efficient and practical.

I also agree with unisex toilets, since I'm not really sure what anyone would want to do in there that involves anyone else.

But the issue here seems to be that this man undressed.

Now I appreciate that the laws in the US often tend to be literal to the point of silliness, but here in the UK, someone undressing in any place at all for any provocative reason would be guilty of sexual misconduct.

A male, for example, can stand infront of a urinal and use it appropriately. But failing to re-dress himself even with the confines of the enclosed area could be seen as indecent exposure.

That could land him a prison sentence and an almost automatic listing on the sex offender's register.

To take the matter one step further. A woman who breast feeds her baby in any public place would be protected, if not by law, but by the public.

A woman who flashes her breasts in public for provocative reasons, would be guilty of an offence.

Just making those points.

Quote from: spacial on April 10, 2016, 05:05:53 AM

To take the matter one step further. A woman who breast feeds her baby in any public place would be protected, if not by law, but by the public.

Is it not the other way around - it's legal to breastfeed in public but people want women to cover up or hide anyway? Not that I disagree with your post tho

eta: I looked it up, it's protected under the Equality Act 2010, so women are legally allowed to expose breasts to feed babies, but if they were idk drunk and flashing people they'd probably still get arrested

Obviously his behavior was not normative in the dressing room, in a way we're fumbling to define.

But if a woman were sexually harassing other women in the same space, they wouldn't hesitate to escort her out of there.

Men in our society can take ambiguous actions knowing they're loaded, because everyone knows they have the means to carry them out and quite possibly get away with it to boot. A woman has to be explicit when she is threatening somebody.

Quote from: Peep on April 10, 2016, 01:30:40 PM
Is it not the other way around - it's legal to breastfeed in public but people want women to cover up or hide anyway? Not that I disagree with your post tho

eta: I looked it up, it's protected under the Equality Act 2010, so women are legally allowed to expose breasts to feed babies, but if they were idk drunk and flashing people they'd probably still get arrested

I honestly don't know. It's never bothered me on the few occasions I've even noticed. As for the law itself, I erred on the side of caution, but I have heard of the Equality Act.

But the issue is surely intent. This man was exposing himself with the intent of causing offence and alarm, (to make his point).

Intent is a big part of English law, especially in recent years. I don't know if it is the same or even applies in the US.

He should be introduced to Loraina Bobbitt.

A reminder that TOS #9 specifically forbids:

QuoteSuggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others

Topic locked.