Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I looked through some of your photos on the changes. Not to mention any names or hurt anyone's feelings but many of you DON'T look very feminime. Some ladies just have a very large frame and the HRT in my opinion and viewpoint it seemed to render little to no results on them. Maybe for them the results were substantial but I think it they were already very masculine, large frame, strong facial hair, big bone structure, lots of muscle mass, hieght etc- so the slightest changes seemed to be significant to them.

Anyway, I looked at some of the other pics and noticed a great change in their face- they looked much more female.

I'm 17 and I'm not very masculine. I have a small frame, bone structure is small, height is okay(5 6), I have some facial hair BUT it's not all on my face(it's under-developed). I have started HRT. I'm on estrogen and AAs. In ONLY 2 weeks I couldn't get ANY erection at all, if i look at porn i just look at it with boredom and don't seem to care. I lost much strenght, I'm suddenly getting emotional(caring, more kind, calm etc)- so far it seems to be working according to these very quick mental effects. my nipples today appeared a bit darker- I feel colder and my nipples are more responsive to temperature.


Now I have some q's

1)Some of you claim that you began hrt and the results were so significant. You said that many people noticed.- your body did change BUT I don't think it was very female looking. Considering that I'm young, not fully developed as a male and that for my age I'm not very manly looking. what changes are expected within 3 months? 6 months? 1yr?-

2) Now some of you claim that it will be "hard" to pass as a male.- is this really true?- because I looked at some of your pics that claimed this and honestly(not to hurt you) in my opinion I think you'd be better off passing as a male than female. now if you take into account that I'm much more shorter in height than most of you(lots of ppl here are 6 foot+), have a smaller frame, less masculine etc. do you think after 1 year of HRT- with AA's, estrogen(bio-ident) and progestorone(to maximise breasts and further feminize)  it will be "Hard" for me to pass as a male? and what I mean by that is- will i be mistaken for a female?, I don't mean whether or not I will have a people teasing me about having boobs, I mean- Will ppl think i'm female?

3) Some of you say that ppl will know "something is up". What will they mostly say or question? what will they comment on? Will it be postive or negative? i heard your scent will change(you will smell more like a female) how will men percieve this? women?

4) Now I don't care what some ppl say about facial changes. Hormones effect everything!- some ppl get facial changes others do not!- we are all diff. So since I read that facial changes take some more patience-after 1 yr of HRT, how significant will these changes be? Will people question or comment? negative or postive? If you take into consideration of my age, I don't have a thick Jawline and don't base your answers on your age & physical body, what can I expect it to do for me?- i have a problem with cheeks- I need more bubbly cheeks- my jawline is fine. Will women notice this? if so what will they comment or say?

5) Now some of you will say that HRT can't affect height- it most certianly can in my view. Some of you claim to have lost an inch or 2. I have a goal to lose 2 1/2 inch-( want to be 5 3 1/2- Some of you said that this is mostly due to muscle mass-correct BUT hrt effects the bones too in my opinion. Some of you may have not gotten any height decrease and I don't think you can base your results to what I will get. Considering that I'm young, and haven't fully developed- is 2 1/2 inch a  possible decrease?- if someone older than me got 1 1/2 inch, don't you think I could possible get more decrease since hormones will affect me more?

6)i want to decrease my shoe size to a women's 7 from a 9- is this possible?

7) what changes will happen on my legs?

thanks

PS. Try not to base your results on my questions- try to fit in my shoes.

-Tanya

I don't have a lot of time to answer this question right now, so I'll come back to it later, but I'm just going to say what most people will say.

Results are extremly varied, so you won't know about height or shoe size until / if it happens.  It's all about genetics and luck really.  With that being said I'll come back to this later to answer the rest. . . well, answer what I can.

Since your 17 you should get pretty good results.  The closer you are to puberty the better.  Try looking at pictures of people closer to your own age, and you may have a better idea of what to expect.

Oh you will pass just fine and be so hot given your age and size. You may look better than any GG that ever walked the earth. You should start HRT as soon as you can before you end up like everybody else...OMG!! Think about how horrible that would be  :o

I think you are the perfect candidate for transition. I know how you feel about porn!! I just sit and watch it with drool coming out of my mouth and it mixes with my beer and I have to get another one. God you would be so perfect...except shoe size which there is not much you can do about that..You may lose some size if you lose weight. But nobody is perfect....sadly not even you...poor widdle thing.

Okay Tanya, I'll try to answer the questions that I can.  Please note though, I've only been transitioning for like a month and a half, so I'm no where near any of these other fine ladies :D

I started hormones about 2 months after I turned 19, so were a little close in age, althogh, like you said, I'm one of those tall cases for girls sadly enough.  I'm 6' but only weigh 135 right now, as for shoe size, it hasn't changed.  I'm a 10 in womens, and have been, but of course, I've only been on hormones for 2 months.

As for facial results, I'll speculate here.  Actually I'll throw back information that everyone has said around here.  Normally facial changes, you can notice something within 3 months, but it might not be significant.  I hear about anywhere inbetween the 6 month mark to year mark is when changes occur during your face that are noticable, although it could takes years for it to fully change.  I'm pretty much just a normal looking guy, but with very little facial hair like yourself, but so far I haven't really noticed any facial changes either, but I know this is because I haven't been on HRT for long.

As for the body, I have gained a little bit of fat on my hips so far, and my skin has softened somewhat, but that's about it for now.  My breasts are still in a minimal stage of growing, you can notice them a little bit, but people wouldn't ever think about looking twice, but again, not looking to change fast since it won't happen either way hehe.  As for what I hear, it is normally hard for anyone to pass after a year of hormones as a male anymore.  Sure, you could always look adrogyne, but with breasts and hopefully female fat distribution, I think it's difficult most of the time to present as a male, unless you hide it extremely well.  (But why would you want to if you've been taking hormones for a year anyways?)

As for being mistaken for female, there's one small bit of advice everyone can give you.  Practice your voice :P  It's a pain in the a** to learn, and I can personally vouche for that.  Mine sucks and it's embarassing, so I know I have a lot of practice ahead of me in that aspect.

I can't really help you on the questions that people will ask or anything, since I haven't been there yet, and probably won't for a couple of months.  I can assume that most of the time people won't even bother asking you questions, well I could think, just because they really don't care for the most part.  Although, I'm not certain on that or anything, it just depends on who you run into really and their perspective.

In regards to the height and feet size, I have heard they can change, but there's no science that tells you if or how much you'll lose, even if you do lose anything at all.  I haven't lose any height so far, although it would be nice and ideal to lose anything in my case, I would be happy :D  Same with foot size.  But for the time being, I'm not going to keep my expectations high, and just expect the worse, no changes.  They can happen and have happened to numerous people, I just don't want to be let down though if it never happens.  I guess there's where you genetics and structure pays off, if you have anything to lose that is.

Hope this answered SOME of your questions, I know there's probably a lot of holes left unfilled, but I'm not too experienced at the whole thing so I tried :P

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 14, 2007, 12:04:41 PM
I looked through some of your photos on the changes. Not to mention any names or hurt anyone's feelings but many of you DON'T look very feminime. Some ladies just have a very large frame and the HRT in my opinion and viewpoint it seemed to render little to no results on them. Maybe for them the results were substantial but I think it they were already very masculine, large frame, strong facial hair, big bone structure, lots of muscle mass, hieght etc- so the slightest changes seemed to be significant to them.

Anyway, I looked at some of the other pics and noticed a great change in their face- they looked much more female.

I'm 17 and I'm not very masculine. I have a small frame, bone structure is small, height is okay(5 6), I have some facial hair BUT it's not all on my face(it's under-developed). I have started HRT. I'm on estrogen and AAs. In ONLY 2 weeks I couldn't get ANY erection at all, if i look at porn i just look at it with boredom and don't seem to care. I lost much strenght, I'm suddenly getting emotional(caring, more kind, calm etc)- so far it seems to be working according to these very quick mental effects. my nipples today appeared a bit darker- I feel colder and my nipples are more responsive to temperature.


Now I have some q's

1)Some of you claim that you began hrt and the results were so significant. You said that many people noticed.- your body did change BUT I don't think it was very female looking. Considering that I'm young, not fully developed as a male and that for my age I'm not very manly looking. what changes are expected within 3 months? 6 months? 1yr?-

You must remember that there is always a chance that folks, lets say, "inflate" their results.  That being said as you are young the changes to your body structure could be significant, however hormones can only do so much, being more effective on muscle and skin as opposed to changing bone structure.  Don't forget that everyones results are different.

Quote

2) Now some of you claim that it will be "hard" to pass as a male.- is this really true?- because I looked at some of your pics that claimed this and honestly(not to hurt you) in my opinion I think you'd be better off passing as a male than female. now if you take into account that I'm much more shorter in height than most of you(lots of ppl here are 6 foot+), have a smaller frame, less masculine etc. do you think after 1 year of HRT- with AA's, estrogen(bio-ident) and progestorone(to maximise breasts and further feminize)  it will be "Hard" for me to pass as a male? and what I mean by that is- will i be mistaken for a female?, I don't mean whether or not I will have a people teasing me about having boobs, I mean- Will ppl think i'm female?

Hormones have nothing to do with passing, they assist the person by bringing their body insync with their brain.  Passing is entirely an individual problem not really connected to HRT, you don't need to be on HRT in order to pass, and just because someone in on HRT doesn't mean they will eventually pass. or be unable to pass in the gender they are transitioning from.

Quote
3) Some of you say that ppl will know "something is up". What will they mostly say or question? what will they comment on? Will it be postive or negative? i heard your scent will change(you will smell more like a female) how will men percieve this? women?

Much of this is anecdotal and based on perception.  I myself didn't notice that my senses or my scent changed, it may have but I'm afraid that no one came up to and said "Hey how come you smell like a woman", or "Hey how come you smell different", and nothing came back to me that my co-workers were discussing this.

Quote

4) Now I don't care what some ppl say about facial changes. Hormones effect everything!- some ppl get facial changes others do not!- we are all diff. So since I read that facial changes take some more patience-after 1 yr of HRT, how significant will these changes be? Will people question or comment? negative or postive? If you take into consideration of my age, I don't have a thick Jawline and don't base your answers on your age & physical body, what can I expect it to do for me?- i have a problem with cheeks- I need more bubbly cheeks- my jawline is fine. Will women notice this? if so what will they comment or say?

I think that it's safe to say that other women won't comment on your physical appearance one way or the other except to say that "Are you loosing/gaining weight" as the case may be.  Any changes that may occur to your facial features will manifest themselves in the skin where by it softens and becomes more subtle.  The changes are not dramatic or immediate but will happen over time and will probably go unnoticed noticed

Quote

5) Now some of you will say that HRT can't affect height- it most certianly can in my view. Some of you claim to have lost an inch or 2. I have a goal to lose 2 1/2 inch-( want to be 5 3 1/2- Some of you said that this is mostly due to muscle mass-correct BUT hrt effects the bones too in my opinion. Some of you may have not gotten any height decrease and I don't think you can base your results to what I will get. Considering that I'm young, and haven't fully developed- is 2 1/2 inch a  possible decrease?- if someone older than me got 1 1/2 inch, don't you think I could possible get more decrease since hormones will affect me more?

I doubt very much that you will achieve such significant loss in height from HRT.  Everyone gets shorter as they get older, it's part of the aging process.  I personally have shrunk by 1/2 inch but I have no evidence that it was caused from HRT.

Quote
6)i want to decrease my shoe size to a women's 7 from a 9- is this possible?

Not from HRT

Quote
7) what changes will happen on my legs?

You will probably experience a loss of muscle mass, loss of strength, and your leg hair may start to grow in finer.  But again your mileage may vary.

Quote
thanks

PS. Try not to base your results on my questions- try to fit in my shoes.

-Tanya

The big thing to remember when reading through the various posts on this topic (and there are several) is that everyones experience is different, we each perceive ourselves through our own eye's and have our own ideas on passing.  Many feel that HRT affects us psychologically as well, however there is no medical proof that this occurs.  Just my humble opinion.

Steph

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 14, 2007, 12:04:41 PM
2) Now some of you claim that it will be "hard" to pass as a male.- is this really true?- because I looked at some of your pics that claimed this and honestly(not to hurt you) in my opinion I think you'd be better off passing as a male than female.

IMHO, GID isn't a matter of deciding whether we're "better off" living as a male or female; it's about realizing you ARE male or female, and thus *having* to do everything we possibly can to live that truth in every way we can, whether we pass or not. Many will tell you that they'd rather (must) live as an unpassable woman than as a man.

As Steph said, passing is much more than looks. Seeing static photographs of people doesn't tell the whole story. I wouldn't dismiss other's claims so easily. Instead, consider that it may indicate that there's more to this then looks alone.

Quote3) Some of you say that ppl will know "something is up". What will they mostly say or question?

"Are you losing weight?"

"Are you sick?"

Quote4) Now I don't care what some ppl say about facial changes. Hormones effect everything!- some ppl get facial changes others do not!- we are all diff. So since I read that facial changes take some more patience-after 1 yr of HRT, how significant will these changes be?

You said it yourself: everyone is different. Some here say they haven't experienced ANY changes, even after years of HRT. Others say they couldn't pass for a boy after a month.

But again, it's more than just looks. It might also be from people getting comfortable with just being themselves, and "vibing" more female to people.

Quote5) Now some of you will say that HRT can't affect height- it most certianly can in my view.

I lost about 1/2" in the first few months of HRT, but it stopped there. I'm also 43, so maybe it's just old age, lol.

Quote6)i want to decrease my shoe size to a women's 7 from a 9- is this possible?

Possibly from muscle loss. I dunno how much is possible though.

Quote7) what changes will happen on my legs?

Fatter upper thighs and rear. I'd imagine many also get fat on their calves, but I have yet to see it on myself.

~Kate~

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 14, 2007, 12:04:41 PM
I looked through some of your photos on the changes. Not to mention any names or hurt anyone's feelings but many of you DON'T look very feminime. Some ladies just have a very large frame and the HRT in my opinion and viewpoint it seemed to render little to no results on them. Maybe for them the results were substantial but I think it they were already very masculine, large frame, strong facial hair, big bone structure, lots of muscle mass, hieght etc- so the slightest changes seemed to be significant to them.

Anyway, I looked at some of the other pics and noticed a great change in their face- they looked much more female.

I'm 17 and I'm not very masculine. I have a small frame, bone structure is small, height is okay(5 6), I have some facial hair BUT it's not all on my face(it's under-developed). I have started HRT. I'm on estrogen and AAs. In ONLY 2 weeks I couldn't get ANY erection at all, if i look at porn i just look at it with boredom and don't seem to care. I lost much strenght, I'm suddenly getting emotional(caring, more kind, calm etc)- so far it seems to be working according to these very quick mental effects. my nipples today appeared a bit darker- I feel colder and my nipples are more responsive to temperature.


Now I have some q's

1)Some of you claim that you began hrt and the results were so significant. You said that many people noticed.- your body did change BUT I don't think it was very female looking. Considering that I'm young, not fully developed as a male and that for my age I'm not very manly looking. what changes are expected within 3 months? 6 months? 1yr?-

2) Now some of you claim that it will be "hard" to pass as a male.- is this really true?- because I looked at some of your pics that claimed this and honestly(not to hurt you) in my opinion I think you'd be better off passing as a male than female. now if you take into account that I'm much more shorter in height than most of you(lots of ppl here are 6 foot+), have a smaller frame, less masculine etc. do you think after 1 year of HRT- with AA's, estrogen(bio-ident) and progestorone(to maximise breasts and further feminize)  it will be "Hard" for me to pass as a male? and what I mean by that is- will i be mistaken for a female?, I don't mean whether or not I will have a people teasing me about having boobs, I mean- Will ppl think i'm female?

3) Some of you say that ppl will know "something is up". What will they mostly say or question? what will they comment on? Will it be postive or negative? i heard your scent will change(you will smell more like a female) how will men percieve this? women?

4) Now I don't care what some ppl say about facial changes. Hormones effect everything!- some ppl get facial changes others do not!- we are all diff. So since I read that facial changes take some more patience-after 1 yr of HRT, how significant will these changes be? Will people question or comment? negative or postive? If you take into consideration of my age, I don't have a thick Jawline and don't base your answers on your age & physical body, what can I expect it to do for me?- i have a problem with cheeks- I need more bubbly cheeks- my jawline is fine. Will women notice this? if so what will they comment or say?

5) Now some of you will say that HRT can't affect height- it most certianly can in my view. Some of you claim to have lost an inch or 2. I have a goal to lose 2 1/2 inch-( want to be 5 3 1/2- Some of you said that this is mostly due to muscle mass-correct BUT hrt effects the bones too in my opinion. Some of you may have not gotten any height decrease and I don't think you can base your results to what I will get. Considering that I'm young, and haven't fully developed- is 2 1/2 inch a  possible decrease?- if someone older than me got 1 1/2 inch, don't you think I could possible get more decrease since hormones will affect me more?

6)i want to decrease my shoe size to a women's 7 from a 9- is this possible?

7) what changes will happen on my legs?

thanks

PS. Try not to base your results on my questions- try to fit in my shoes.

-Tanya

Tanya, no offense, you really have a bit of arrogance, which I noticed is not uncommon with TS your age that you really need to drop.
I will be honest, you cannot judge how well somebody passes or does not pass based on a photograph, and your judgements are based on YOUR perceptions, not OUR experiences. 

With regards to shoe size.  It shrinks a size  at most, but that does not always happen.  Your bone structure determines your foot size to a large degree, and taking your size, the MOST you can expect is to drop to an 8.  I personally fall around a 9 1/2 or 10, depending on the shoe size.  As it stands any shoe size below 11 is pretty much average for a female.

With regards to height you lose an inch or maybe two at most.  But that does not happen to everybody, considering your age and your height it does not happen at all.


Lastly my personal experience.  I did not pass all the time as male, even before hormones I got nasty looks. Why? Personal behaviors and mannerisms.  I pass fine as female.  Why? Because passing goes beyond how one appears. 

I will be honest some people look more female than others.  I have met some TS which are indistinguishible, and transitioned in their early thirties.  I know one who is your age where HRT is not effective at all.

Your results may very.  I personally went from being flat to an a cup, and I began to have significant facial changes start to happen 2 1/2 months in, at age 28.  But as it stands I can pass pretty easy as both, that is if guys cloths FIT me.  Which they don't.  Again I am 5'9".  Tall for a woman, but still within the 99% grouping.

Also 5'6" is a great height to be female, it is literally, right around the US average.

Oh one more thing.  You are right height matters, as does subtle things like hand size and foot size (contrary to what some people say here, women actually do notice that).  I have met young transitioners that pass poorly and older ones who pass great. Age plays a part but if you are 6'2" and have a very male skull, a large frame, large hands, and large feet, passing is going to be more difficult.  Some people are more blessed than others.  You seem like you are probably quite blessed, but do not be so judgmental on those who are not. 

The thing is like many younger TS, you may have a very high standard of passing (in that you have to be pretty), and not quite the best understanding of the range of female faces out there. 

As somebody stated passing though is more than the face or the body.  It is the mannerisms, the voice, the who package.  The reality is you are more likely not to pass because of your voice than you face or your body. 

~laugh~ :laugh: Yes you are back. ;)
Oops sorry peeps.. just thinking outloud.  It's difficult to tell what the changes will be.  Even after many years of estrogen therapy, I was still horrid-looking so I had to have FFS and it's made all the difference.

Posted on: October 14, 2007, 03:32:53 PM

---

Quote from: Kate on October 14, 2007, 03:00:59 PM
GID isn't a matter of deciding whether we're "better off" living as a male or female; it's about realizing you ARE male or female, and thus *having* to do everything we possibly can to live that truth in every way we can, whether we pass or not. Many will tell you that they'd rather (must) live as an unpassable woman than as a man.

Ditto. :)

I'd trade being 17 for being arrogant anyday :)

Quote from: Amy T. on October 14, 2007, 03:02:31 PM

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 14, 2007, 12:04:41 PM
I looked through some of your photos on the changes. Not to mention any names or hurt anyone's feelings but many of you DON'T look very feminime. Some ladies just have a very large frame and the HRT in my opinion and viewpoint it seemed to render little to no results on them. Maybe for them the results were substantial but I think it they were already very masculine, large frame, strong facial hair, big bone structure, lots of muscle mass, hieght etc- so the slightest changes seemed to be significant to them.

Anyway, I looked at some of the other pics and noticed a great change in their face- they looked much more female.

I'm 17 and I'm not very masculine. I have a small frame, bone structure is small, height is okay(5 6), I have some facial hair BUT it's not all on my face(it's under-developed). I have started HRT. I'm on estrogen and AAs. In ONLY 2 weeks I couldn't get ANY erection at all, if i look at porn i just look at it with boredom and don't seem to care. I lost much strenght, I'm suddenly getting emotional(caring, more kind, calm etc)- so far it seems to be working according to these very quick mental effects. my nipples today appeared a bit darker- I feel colder and my nipples are more responsive to temperature.


Now I have some q's

1)Some of you claim that you began hrt and the results were so significant. You said that many people noticed.- your body did change BUT I don't think it was very female looking. Considering that I'm young, not fully developed as a male and that for my age I'm not very manly looking. what changes are expected within 3 months? 6 months? 1yr?-

2) Now some of you claim that it will be "hard" to pass as a male.- is this really true?- because I looked at some of your pics that claimed this and honestly(not to hurt you) in my opinion I think you'd be better off passing as a male than female. now if you take into account that I'm much more shorter in height than most of you(lots of ppl here are 6 foot+), have a smaller frame, less masculine etc. do you think after 1 year of HRT- with AA's, estrogen(bio-ident) and progestorone(to maximise breasts and further feminize)  it will be "Hard" for me to pass as a male? and what I mean by that is- will i be mistaken for a female?, I don't mean whether or not I will have a people teasing me about having boobs, I mean- Will ppl think i'm female?

3) Some of you say that ppl will know "something is up". What will they mostly say or question? what will they comment on? Will it be postive or negative? i heard your scent will change(you will smell more like a female) how will men percieve this? women?

4) Now I don't care what some ppl say about facial changes. Hormones effect everything!- some ppl get facial changes others do not!- we are all diff. So since I read that facial changes take some more patience-after 1 yr of HRT, how significant will these changes be? Will people question or comment? negative or postive? If you take into consideration of my age, I don't have a thick Jawline and don't base your answers on your age & physical body, what can I expect it to do for me?- i have a problem with cheeks- I need more bubbly cheeks- my jawline is fine. Will women notice this? if so what will they comment or say?

5) Now some of you will say that HRT can't affect height- it most certianly can in my view. Some of you claim to have lost an inch or 2. I have a goal to lose 2 1/2 inch-( want to be 5 3 1/2- Some of you said that this is mostly due to muscle mass-correct BUT hrt effects the bones too in my opinion. Some of you may have not gotten any height decrease and I don't think you can base your results to what I will get. Considering that I'm young, and haven't fully developed- is 2 1/2 inch a  possible decrease?- if someone older than me got 1 1/2 inch, don't you think I could possible get more decrease since hormones will affect me more?

6)i want to decrease my shoe size to a women's 7 from a 9- is this possible?

7) what changes will happen on my legs?

thanks

PS. Try not to base your results on my questions- try to fit in my shoes.

-Tanya

Tanya, no offense, you really have a bit of arrogance, which I noticed is not uncommon with TS your age that you really need to drop.
I will be honest, you cannot judge how well somebody passes or does not pass based on a photograph, and your judgements are based on YOUR perceptions, not OUR experiences. 

With regards to shoe size.  It shrinks a size  at most, but that does not always happen.  Your bone structure determines your foot size to a large degree, and taking your size, the MOST you can expect is to drop to an 8.  I personally fall around a 9 1/2 or 10, depending on the shoe size.  As it stands any shoe size below 11 is pretty much average for a female.

With regards to height you lose an inch or maybe two at most.  But that does not happen to everybody, considering your age and your height it does not happen at all.


Lastly my personal experience.  I did not pass all the time as male, even before hormones I got nasty looks. Why? Personal behaviors and mannerisms.  I pass fine as female.  Why? Because passing goes beyond how one appears. 

I will be honest some people look more female than others.  I have met some TS which are indistinguishible, and transitioned in their early thirties.  I know one who is your age where HRT is not effective at all.

Your results may very.  I personally went from being flat to an a cup, and I began to have significant facial changes start to happen 2 1/2 months in, at age 28.  But as it stands I can pass pretty easy as both, that is if guys cloths FIT me.  Which they don't.  Again I am 5'9".  Tall for a woman, but still within the 99% grouping.

Also 5'6" is a great height to be female, it is literally, right around the US average.

Oh one more thing.  You are right height matters, as does subtle things like hand size and foot size (contrary to what some people say here, women actually do notice that).  I have met young transitioners that pass poorly and older ones who pass great. Age plays a part but if you are 6'2" and have a very male skull, a large frame, large hands, and large feet, passing is going to be more difficult.  Some people are more blessed than others.  You seem like you are probably quite blessed, but do not be so judgmental on those who are not. 

The thing is like many younger TS, you may have a very high standard of passing (in that you have to be pretty), and not quite the best understanding of the range of female faces out there. 

As somebody stated passing though is more than the face or the body.  It is the mannerisms, the voice, the who package.  The reality is you are more likely not to pass because of your voice than you face or your body. 

No, I'm not offended, I happy that you pointed that out. I think my posts reflects my standards and judgements on what is acceptable stereotypically of a women. I have a standard of being pretty. I got  a clear picture of everything with your post. HRT can't be anymore effective in a 17 yr old than that of a 30yr old in some cases. I think genetics, how your body responds to the hormones, growth hormones and YOUR will to change is what matters the most. I believe that hormones are only effective if you have a will for them to work. I may not pass as a male soon after a few months and I need to be prepared for that- if I do then i need to work on not passing. I now understand that the voice, manners, behavior, personality are a bigger part than physical appearance. I now believe that it is a very crucial to first develop your voice, manners, personality and the way you interact with people then your appearance- because if you look like a female but have male attributes like voice and behavior you will have a tough time. Although hands, feet, height, skull design and some other cues play a huge factor in being a women but I now realize that their is more to it than just that. I just imagined what I would be like if I was Mariah Carey but had a very deep voice- I would probably be questioned about my voice and the first though that would hit people's mind is whether I'm really a woman.

Thanks for replying

I look the same facially as I did before I started HRT 6 years ago.....it may benefiit some people more than others.....

sometimes people say 'the HRT worked well on you' and I tell them I looked exactely the same before HRT which I did but I was lucky enough to look fairly androgenous to start with anyway.....

Quote from: Berliegh on October 14, 2007, 08:24:55 PM
I look the same facially as I did before I started HRT 6 years ago.....it may benefiit some people more than others.....

sometimes people say 'the HRT worked well on you' and I tell them I looked exactely the same before HRT which I did but I was lucky enough to look fairly androgenous to start with anyway.....

well you may not be able to tell much difference since you hoperfully look in the mirror everyday.

The criteria people use in deciding whether a person is male or female are entirely subjective, and two people may reach different answers.  And part of that is knowing or believing ahead of time what the person is.  Take a baby and dress it in pink, and people will say, "How sweet!  She looks so delicate!"  Take the same baby and dress it in blue, and people will say, "What a fine, strong looking young man!"  If you know someone is trans, they may never pass in your eyes.

as everyone said your mileage may be different.  there are so many variables, and HRT is only part of the issue.  How you talk, not just pitch is important, how you walk,  hand arm movements,  Ha How you look at and react to someone are just as important, if not more important then changes from HRT.  Also being only 17 you could still grow and inch or two too.  It happened to a GG friend of mine at 20.  There can also mental changes in how you think too, and not just basic things either. 

We are all TS here,  Some pass more then others, but we're all sisters for who we are is not who everyone saw before. 

All I can say is after one year, I look and act so very different, from who I use to be before, and I'm an old girl of 51.  I wish you  the best of luck with your transistion.

Beni

Tanya, you stated "HRT can't be anymore effective in a 17 yr old than that of a 30yr old in some cases."

I'm in agreement with everyone that said everyone is different. That's a very accurate statement.

To provide some medical statements from actual doctors specializing in HRT, MOST doctors agree that the younger a person transitions, the better the results. The physical effects of testosterone become permenant in most people around the age of 30. That's why, generally speaking, those that begin hormone therapy at a younger age have "better" results. At the average age of 40 (in the US), the effects that testosterone have on the body/face are harder to reverse.

There are a plethora of medical websites that exist that provide scientific proof and answers to some of the things that you're asking. I'm an advocate of reading actual medical reports as opposed to basing certian things on just what people say (that's not to discredit anything that anyone has posted here). My point is play it safe and do some research and see what science says.

Here's a snippet from http://secondtype.com/hormones.htm (the author is not a doctor, but reitterates the statements of those who have studied the subject in a very scientific manner)

The effects of female hormone treatment will vary considerably by individual, and can take 2 to 5 years to fully achieve.  In order to maximise the physical effects and benefits, hormone treatment should be begun as young as possible, before the body has completely matured and can no longer develop in response to stimuli.  The longer after male puberty (which typically ends by age 18) that female hormone therapy is started the less effective it will be - but not on a linear scale, the effects tail-off rapidly as time since puberty  increases.  For example, a woman starting hormones at age 20 may experience good breast development and a near cessation of facial hair growth, the same woman starting treatment at 30 will get considerably less breast development and only a slight reduction of facial hair growth, while if she started at 40 the effects will be less again, but not so significantly.

Best of luck to you!

Hi Tanya

Can you guess how old the person in this photo is?  This is the result of a combination of hormones and just a few Mary Kay products. And I have been 7 years full time and and I enjoy being feminine very much, being a a woman.

Smoky Mountains Tennessee 2 years ago

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2FF1000022.jpg&hash=6059a2135a9225cc4a040f7f890149429abdfb71)

Latest photo

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2FF1000021-2.jpg&hash=a5101a886c40f2ee4bfce91254cdb1c8ab9bf52d)


Cindy

QuoteI looked through some of your photos on the changes. Not to mention any names or hurt anyone's feelings but many of you DON'T look very feminime. Some ladies just have a very large frame and the HRT in my opinion and viewpoint it seemed to render little to no results on them. Maybe for them the results were substantial but I think it they were already very masculine, large frame, strong facial hair, big bone structure, lots of muscle mass, hieght etc- so the slightest changes seemed to be significant to them.

You have a wonderful way of starting a dialogue, Tanya, especially a dialogue in which you seek useful information.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2F014_13a-1.jpg&hash=f2cd956dec3a6e294f00389e2f841ea6cf11125e)

Good luck. 

Wing Walker
Flying From This Thread With a Tailwind

depends how young you are, how your built,and genetics to an extent,
i started hrt at 20, and ive been on 10 months so far, but this photo (left was taken after 8 months:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2Fwtf1.jpg&hash=552703dc847f07014db8913b815ad2b4ae4f126c)
enough difference for you?
R :police:

In the recent picture I am 61 years old and the prior one two years ago in Tennessee I was 58 years old.

Cindy

Not just when you are young.  Left: last January.  Right: 15 years ago.

(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/3186_17_10_07_8_24_43.jpg) (https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/3186_02_05_07_9_01_58.jpg)

It's odd. I can finally look at that old picture without feeling disgusted.  Now I can look at it and think, "I used to be a really handsome man."  And I can look at the other one and think, "I'm a really cute woman."  Weird.

Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:39:48 AM
depends how young you are, how your built,and genetics to an extent,
i started hrt at 20, and ive been on 10 months so far, but this photo (left was taken after 8 months:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2Fwtf1.jpg&hash=552703dc847f07014db8913b815ad2b4ae4f126c)
enough difference for you?
R :police:

that is more than enough. It looks like your bone structure got affected. It's a HUGE difference- you can barely recognize the person. did you have to change your driver's id?- i think you did!

Posted on: October 17, 2007, 02:23:46 PM

---

Quote from: Kelli on October 16, 2007, 11:40:15 PM
Tanya, you stated "HRT can't be anymore effective in a 17 yr old than that of a 30yr old in some cases."

I'm in agreement with everyone that said everyone is different. That's a very accurate statement.

To provide some medical statements from actual doctors specializing in HRT, MOST doctors agree that the younger a person transitions, the better the results. The physical effects of testosterone become permenant in most people around the age of 30. That's why, generally speaking, those that begin hormone therapy at a younger age have "better" results. At the average age of 40 (in the US), the effects that testosterone have on the body/face are harder to reverse.

There are a plethora of medical websites that exist that provide scientific proof and answers to some of the things that you're asking. I'm an advocate of reading actual medical reports as opposed to basing certian things on just what people say (that's not to discredit anything that anyone has posted here). My point is play it safe and do some research and see what science says.

Here's a snippet from http://secondtype.com/hormones.htm (the author is not a doctor, but reitterates the statements of those who have studied the subject in a very scientific manner)

The effects of female hormone treatment will vary considerably by individual, and can take 2 to 5 years to fully achieve.  In order to maximise the physical effects and benefits, hormone treatment should be begun as young as possible, before the body has completely matured and can no longer develop in response to stimuli.  The longer after male puberty (which typically ends by age 18) that female hormone therapy is started the less effective it will be - but not on a linear scale, the effects tail-off rapidly as time since puberty  increases.  For example, a woman starting hormones at age 20 may experience good breast development and a near cessation of facial hair growth, the same woman starting treatment at 30 will get considerably less breast development and only a slight reduction of facial hair growth, while if she started at 40 the effects will be less again, but not so significantly.

Best of luck to you!

great resource kelli!- It depends- I heard you should sleep good(for human growth hormones), getting circulation by cardio is important- it will absorb the hormones!- I heard that steriods are ineffective when guys don't workout because they need circulation- same thing with estro!


But I still agree that you should start young, it would be BEST to block testo at age 10 then take hormones(low dose) at 11, then increase it each year.

Posted on: October 17, 2007, 02:32:30 PM

---

Quote from: Wing Walker on October 17, 2007, 02:42:41 AM

QuoteI looked through some of your photos on the changes. Not to mention any names or hurt anyone's feelings but many of you DON'T look very feminime. Some ladies just have a very large frame and the HRT in my opinion and viewpoint it seemed to render little to no results on them. Maybe for them the results were substantial but I think it they were already very masculine, large frame, strong facial hair, big bone structure, lots of muscle mass, hieght etc- so the slightest changes seemed to be significant to them.

You have a wonderful way of starting a dialogue, Tanya, especially a dialogue in which you seek useful information.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2F014_13a-1.jpg&hash=f2cd956dec3a6e294f00389e2f841ea6cf11125e)

Good luck. 

Wing Walker
Flying From This Thread With a Tailwind

you pass for a lady. not for a teenager or someone in their 20's or some pop star hottie but you pass as female.

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 17, 2007, 02:36:13 PM

Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:39:48 AM
depends how young you are, how your built,and genetics to an extent,
i started hrt at 20, and ive been on 10 months so far, but this photo (left was taken after 8 months:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2Fwtf1.jpg&hash=552703dc847f07014db8913b815ad2b4ae4f126c)
enough difference for you?
R :police:

that is more than enough. It looks like your bone structure got affected. It's a HUGE difference- you can barely recognize the person. did you have to change your driver's id?- i think you did!

No, it's not.  It's the camera angle.

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 17, 2007, 02:36:13 PM

Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:39:48 AM
depends how young you are, how your built,and genetics to an extent,
i started hrt at 20, and ive been on 10 months so far, but this photo (left was taken after 8 months:
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n125/Belladonna_06/wtf1.jpg
enough difference for you?
R :police:

uh, duh?
had to change it with my name... i dont think i fancy haveing a male photo on my drivers id :P
Lisbeth:(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2Flawlfail.jpg&hash=80e2da89986b45120aede186320b2ea1161152fc)
yes, your right, its totally the angle, i look identical!

Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 06:01:45 PM
Lisbeth:(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi111.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn125%2FBelladonna_06%2Flawlfail.jpg&hash=80e2da89986b45120aede186320b2ea1161152fc)
yes, your right, its totally the angle, i look identical!

So do I.

Quoteyou pass for a lady. not for a teenager or someone in their 20's or some pop star hottie but you pass as female.

Thank you for your expert eye and determination that I pass for a lady and not a teenager.

I am blessed beyond what I understand because I do fine with my own affirmations.  I don't need anyone else to make me feel comfortable and happy with myself.  It's not in appearance alone that I live.  I am positive of who I am, self-confident, and, possibly the most important attribute I have, I never questioned who I am.

Were someone to stop me in a store or on the street and ask about my gender I am ready to handle that.  It has never happened in five years.  My hands and feet are the size that they are.  I stand almost six feet *tall.* 

When I buy clothing I try it on before I pay for it.  When I need a new brassiere I go to a store where I can be properly measured, with my top and bra off.

I have never found anything other than the respect due a customer.

Perhaps the most rewarding thing about my physical transition to a female body is that my face, breasts, hips, thighs and bum are those of a teenager on a platform well past its teens.  I hope that we all look great forty years from the time we see our new bodies.

Wing Walker
Grinning Like the Cheshire Cat

Hiya Tanya1.........

What's reasonable?....hmmmm....how many ways could I answer that? 
If you look at my avitar, the one on the left was me pre-hrt.  The one on the right is me post-hrt.  As you can see, I actually grew taller, got bigger feet, a better butt, and sprouted pigtails.  I also make good company for myself, as you can plainly see.  Oddly the one on the left looks older than the one on the right, and neither look my actual age!

Nods, "uh-huh"
Bev

Hi, Bev,

I *love* that avitar!  Pretty clever and most original, for shore!

Wing Walker

Well, i don't know how HRT will affect you. It affects people differently. There are no guarantees. Most people see some improvement in a year -- some lots, some not so much. Although age can help, I know people younger than me who've haven't had a lot of changes and I know people older than me that have looked pretty good. Genetics play a role. And so does the fairy god-mother.

Everyone is different, in other words. But, if you're trans than you'll take the risk that you might turn out wonderful or not so wonderful.

Maybe I'm on of those people that you don't think will pass. *shrugs* But, really, I don't care. I'll post a couple of pix for sh*ts and giggles, anyway. And, if you're really bored, you can check out my vlog by clicking on my profile. I don't really show my body in my vlogs. I think there is one where you get part of my body, which has changed since then. But really, I have nothing to prove to anyone (I'm just a camera whore. LOL)

I think that I look better in real life than through pictures. Pictures only say so much, since body language plays a role, so does voice, and so does seeing how many times you can spin around before you fall over. My vlog is as close as you'll get to seeing me in real life besides seeing me in real life.


Oh, and answers to your questions:

Quote1)Some of you claim that you began hrt and the results were so significant. You said that many people noticed.- your body did change BUT I don't think it was very female looking. Considering that I'm young, not fully developed as a male and that for my age I'm not very manly looking. what changes are expected within 3 months? 6 months? 1yr?-

Well, eventually you'll turn into a cat.  >:D

Anyway, the serious answer: no body knows. There is no guarantee with HRT.

Quote2) Now some of you claim that it will be "hard" to pass as a male.- is this really true?- because I looked at some of your pics that claimed this and honestly(not to hurt you) in my opinion I think you'd be better off passing as a male than female. now if you take into account that I'm much more shorter in height than most of you(lots of ppl here are 6 foot+), have a smaller frame, less masculine etc. do you think after 1 year of HRT- with AA's, estrogen(bio-ident) and progestorone(to maximise breasts and further feminize)  it will be "Hard" for me to pass as a male? and what I mean by that is- will i be mistaken for a female?, I don't mean whether or not I will have a people teasing me about having boobs, I mean- Will ppl think i'm female?

Oh yeah, I'm 8 feet tall *lol* I pass as a tree. You might pass as a bush if you try really, really hard. Will you look female? Maybe, maybe not.

Quote3) Some of you say that ppl will know "something is up". What will they mostly say or question? what will they comment on? Will it be postive or negative? i heard your scent will change(you will smell more like a female) how will men percieve this? women?

People usually can figure that something is up. I've seen it with so many people who've gone on HRT. What triggers people? I don't know. It could be a number of things or the fact your wearing a skirt and have a beard shadow. *shurgs*

Quote4) Now I don't care what some ppl say about facial changes. Hormones effect everything!- some ppl get facial changes others do not!- we are all diff. So since I read that facial changes take some more patience-after 1 yr of HRT, how significant will these changes be? Will people question or comment? negative or postive? If you take into consideration of my age, I don't have a thick Jawline and don't base your answers on your age & physical body, what can I expect it to do for me?- i have a problem with cheeks- I need more bubbly cheeks- my jawline is fine. Will women notice this? if so what will they comment or say?

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Find a psychic and ask.

Quote5) Now some of you will say that HRT can't affect height- it most certianly can in my view. Some of you claim to have lost an inch or 2. I have a goal to lose 2 1/2 inch-( want to be 5 3 1/2- Some of you said that this is mostly due to muscle mass-correct BUT hrt effects the bones too in my opinion. Some of you may have not gotten any height decrease and I don't think you can base your results to what I will get. Considering that I'm young, and haven't fully developed- is 2 1/2 inch a  possible decrease?- if someone older than me got 1 1/2 inch, don't you think I could possible get more decrease since hormones will affect me more?

You might lose hight, but you might not. Maybe you'll grow taller. You can also saw off your legs, that always is a sure way to lose height. Or, maybe, you just take things as they go rather than putting expectations on how things should be.

Quote6)i want to decrease my shoe size to a women's 7 from a 9- is this possible?

Sure, if you cut your toes off. It might happen, but what if it doesn't? What if nothing you want out of HRT works? What if you go bald? What if you end up wearing a wig for the rest of your life. What if you start looking more masculine? What if HRT doesn't even work. What if a year into this you have some kid look you down and say, "You look like a boy in a dress!"

What if, what if, I want, I want, I expect, I expect, I think I'm better some how cause blah, blah, blah, this should happen cause and blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, I know, I'm being a bit of a b*tch.  >:D  But there is a point to this (really!) The point is this: there are no guarantees, and were all in the same boat so a holier-than-thou attitude will get you nowhere. People are not going to respect you, and honestly, the people you need for support are right here.

So what if people aren't perfect or you don't think they look like "girls" -- I say Kudos to every person who's had the guts to transition, to live full time, to go out into public and be willing to be laughed at just to be who they are. These people deserve our respect and love. Each and every one of them! Sure, maybe not everyone looks perfect, or acts perfect, or even sounds perfect -- No one is perfect. But, if someone is willing to have the guts to be who they are no matter the costs, they are amazing people.

Quote7) what changes will happen on my legs?

My psychic powers say they will change to chicken legs and grow purple feathers. *grins*



And now ****drum roll!***** here's Natalie!


Before! (Yay, I look mean!)

________________________


Took picture out.

________________________

After! Told you that you can turn into a cat, just like me!

[________________________


Took picture out.

________________________
Okay, seriously, After! (Yay, I look nice, but I'm still a B*tch when people put down my friends and the wonderful people in Susans!)

________________________


Took picture out.

________________________


--natalie  >:D

Hi Natalie, can I be a camera whore to? I have a fairy godmother

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Fspacealiern.jpg&hash=15af7adf2d19b546183929bd0d90787085e22239)

Ooops wrong one.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Fmay_konica_minolta_zoom_and_wide-1.jpg&hash=71beb33c214fb03eaecc6adaabc95a3b0c0ee6a4)

Nope not that one either, that's my best friend from Long Island, next door to Montauk

Here she is,

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2Ffairy-butterflies-blue-2.jpg&hash=1709d25d301ea5cc5bbe72f003def6d2e11c31c2)

Cindy

example: i had to go to my grandmothers funeral: parents made me go as a boy dispite being ft at home (uni)
wearing a manish ponytail, and a suit and tie, guys stood back for me traveling there and back on the train etc. and at the funeral, the vicar asked my parents who thier other daughter was... yes, id say it CAN be hard to pass male for some.
although OP, you will notice its not everyone who says its hard to pass male, a lot of younger girls have the trouble, as there is greater change when young, its just fact... people like Debsl, Tink, Lynner, Redfish, Gothique, and i, for example, have trouble passing as male, but  then, what do we all have in common?
plus a lot of people on this site arnt over 6ft :)
i WAS 5'11, im now 5'9 (according to the nhs both times) which is hrts fault :)
R :police:

Hi, Natalie,

I love the way you cleared the air over what to expect from HRT.  Well-thought-out and funny as well.

Loyalty to one's friends is wonderful and I prize it highly.  As you continue on your journey please accept me to be with you in spirit or as a listening ear whenever you need one.  If I can't give you a good answer, I'll tell you so and not waste your time.

Respectfully,

Wing Walker

I was 5'10" and I'm now 5'8". I used to be taller than my brother, but now I'm shorter and much, much smaller. It's creepy! *makes legs grow so she is now 10 feet tall* Muhahaha, now I can take over the world!!!!!

I'm pretty average for around here, I have a lot of friends that are the same size as me and several girls that are taller and bigger than me (frame wise). Since HRT I lost 40 pounds... it's craziness, and My body keeps on changing. So many of my tops are big now, so I need to get some more. Arg! Being a girl is expensive -- anyone want to lend me their credit card, I'll love you for ever. :D (J/k)


--natalie (meow!)



***Fun Fact of the DAY!!!!

Natalie's dad finally visited her since over a year. She last saw her dad May '06. Her dad came to visit out of the blue (maybe he realized that I wasn't just going through a "phase"), two weeks ago. He went to my appartment, and didn't recognize me down in the lobby. I had to go up to him and tell him that it was me. He was shocked. My own dad didn't even recognize me. And I'm now shorter than him, and much smaller. Creepiness! He commented on how small I looked. He was trying to cope with things, and we went out to lunch, and he's still having problems. I'm way to much for him. He hasn't talked to me since. I'm mad he won't tell my 13 yr old half-sister, and I'm basically shut out of her life.

As for my brother, he's back to not talking to me again. Word is, his wife (who hates me with a passion) is preggo. So, yeah, the fear is the my trans powers will affect the baby and it might turn out trans, or a mutant freak of some sort that doesn't fit with their bubble world view and they'd have to throw the baby to the trash just like they did to me. Yaynesss! My brother even blocked me from his facebook! Double Yayness!

I was glad that my brother started talking to me after 10 months after I was full time (so, he last saw me in June '06, then it was May when he finally saw me again). He didn't recognize me either. I had to go up to him and he looked at me for a second and said, "whoa!" it was kind of nice to think that he might be actually coming around, but it wasn't so true.

Family is just wonderful, aren't they! *groans*

But, anyway, beside hijacking things -- there is a point. People change in a lot of ways. People still can't believe that I'm a cat (meow). A speaking cat at that, with wonderful fur and an awesome tail with spikes on it, and laser beam eyes. Oh, and I can fly, too. *wow am I ever a weird one!*

***end of fun fact, now back to our regular programming*

Hi, Natalie, hun,
I believe that we are going to be very good friends. I love your sense of humor, it doesn't differ much from mine. What's really ingenious is how to tell people the yin and yang of how things go without putting them down, but rather illustrating to them the possibility of the folly of their unrealistic aspirations, maybe ending up in left field at a different ballpark.

Some of the aspirations are just simply not realistic. Anyone with that kind of aspirations should start their transition by saying, "Our Father, who art in heaven..." as often as they can!

Cindy

its funny i get told im inventing my hrt effects often... its been 10 months on hrt for me, and low dose at that (ill mention i do have higher natural hormone production (girl ones <-- am is) but ive been on bellow post op maintenance dose, and yet, ive gone from fleshyish chest, to a full B cup, had massive facial hair reduction to barely none, my voice changed. and is unreadable as male now... ive lost 3 shoes sizes and 2 inches in hight... i can walk past people ive not seen in a year, and they dont recognise me... its odd, and silly fast, but true...
R :police:

Hi Natalie I am 5' 3" 125 lbs shorter the a lot of people both women and guys maybe Hobbit size sometimes, like I would need a step ladder to see the top of my soul mates head. Well I won't have to do that unless she pics up purple hematite flees from Mars.

But if you grow to ten feet high I'll have to hire a bush plane to see the top of your head. By the way, hows the weather up there? Still ain't no snow on the mountains in Vancouver. Mt. Baker has snow on top of it, did you know it's a dormant volcano?

Cindy

I don't see a lot of difference between the before and after pics  apart from hairstyles, hair colour and in some cases beard removal....

I personally think hormones do very little and cannot change bone structure but you can achieve quite a lot from just doing the above....

In Rachael's case she has definitely a little more fat in her face and is probably a lot happier within herself more these days..  Depression can affect someone's facial expression and the old pic looks like an old passport photo  pic......

Sure, okay, all I had to do was shave and grow my hair out to look like a woman! Why did I even go on these hormones? And, wow, so many people in the real world who see me day to day must be really nice and putting me on or something. Strangers must be getting nicer, cause they no longer keep looking and treating me like I'm a boy in a dress. Must me my laser cat vision -- they are scared that I'll use it on them. *zap* :P

oh, wait, I cut my hair, wore make up, and even shaved before I went on HRT. Lookies!

________________________


Took picture out.

________________________



Erm, that's not right. I kind of look male still. Strange?

Oh wait, a time when I was dressed as female pre-hrt. Okay, this is a cute picture, but you don't see my body and even though I could x-dress pretty well in order to "pass" I would still get clocked from time to time. My body was very male then, strange enough.
________________________


Took picture out.

________________________


But, still, arg! I don't get bothered these days like those days. This is so confusing. Why don't any of my old boy clothes fit? Why has my skin changed?

And I don't understand people still called me a guy pre-hrt, even with shaving and make up. This is weirdness!

So, if I haven't changed much at all, I must really look like a boy. It's got to be the smile that maybe tricks people. Oh, and don't forget the hair, it's all in the hair! I've got to pull more pictures out!

Okay, lets try this one!

________________________


Took picture out.

________________________

Okay, okay, that one isn't good. I'm smiling too much -- I'm trying to find a bad picture of myself, one where I'm not smiling (it's so hard not to smile these days!) Anyway, ah-ha! Here's a bad picture of me. Does that work?

________________________


Took picture out.

________________________

I give up! Yep, you are right HRT does very little, and there's no real use of it. All we have to do is shave and get a nice girly hair cut and wear a bit of make up (or not). Wow, HRT is such a waste of time! We just need to change our hair colour, get a hair cut, and get rid of these beards and we'd be set! How wunderbar! Think of the money savings!

There's just one thing: I just can't understand where these boobs come from? They are a mystery. It must be the boob fairy! And my waist, it wasn't like this before. And my hips. None of my both clothes fit, and these girl clothes seem to fit really well... but they didn't before when I x-dressed. Weirdness! Something freaky is going on for a little pit that does very little.


-- Natalie, who apparently still looks like a boy, cause HRT actually has no affect... it was really my hair cut all along! o_O




Posted on: October 18, 2007, 04:51:45 AM

---

To add to this:

I think that everyone looks wonderful, and I can see how the HRT has affected you and made your life better. Applaud yourselves, your a group of wonderful ladies with the courage to be who you are. And that is something that no one can take away from you. Never let anyone take a way your womanhood. Be proud of who you are and where you are going. Very few people in this world ever find themselves and then have the guts to be who they are.

No one is perfect. We all might have physical flaws, everyone in the world does. But what we do have is our spirits and our dignity, and that shines through beyond the physical.

(vise versa for our wonderful FtM group, too, you're just as amazing!)

--natalie :)

Posted on: October 18, 2007, 05:15:21 AM

---

And one more thing:

I know I probably sound bad and a bit sarcastic. I just don't like it when people are put down. I hope that I haven't hurt anyone's feelings (and I don't mean to). Everyone has the right to an opinion, even if they say that we don't look good or HRT doesn't really do much. Just like I have the opinion that we are all amazing in our own ways, and each of us bring our own point of view to the board which completes a mosaic.

I've been in a weird mood lately, and I've just been a bit more vocal about what I think and my take on things. If what I write does offend someone, I'm sorry about that. I love everyone here, even if they have a different view point. Even if they thought I was ugly, mean, and a horrible person, I'd still be there for them when it came down to it.

So, anyway, take my words with a grain of salt. I know that sometimes I can get carried away with being a bit sarcastic when I think people say stuff that I feel puts others down. But I still stand by what I think, and that is that we are all just amazing people and I'm so lucky to know all of you and to be in a message board where so many great people hang out. People who just want to be themselves, which is the most honorable thing that one can do.

Love and peace to all,


--Natalie, the flying cat with laser-beam eyes.  ;D

Im quite impressed by the changes.  Normally it takes around one year to notice the main changes & one more extra year for the changes to settle in.

Anyone who thinks that hormones don't work, perhaps they can tell me where I got 20 year old boobs on this 62 year old body. Well I got my dollar's worth from the hormones and certainly not disappointed with the results. I don't have any pics from when I was guy mode.

I can even wear knee-length sun dresses with spaghetti straps and guys are nearly driving off the road from craning their heads around as they drive by. Not bad, not bad at all, not bad for a 62 year old.  People have asked me how old I am and the surprised look on their faces when I tell them my age says it all. I have even been carded as only being in my mid thirties by some. It's just priceless to see them react the way they do. So maybe I am like my soul mate said, the type where all one needs to do is add estrogen to turn them into a woman.

So for anyone that doesn't believe the hormones don't do much, may the Bird of Paradise crap on their new hairdo   ;D 

You go girl! It's important to be yourself. Believe in yourself. People will say things, or they will say that things are just not possible -- but anything is possible. How HRT reacts on one person could be totally different than the next. Who knows where it goes? But never let the what if's and "that's not possible" stop you. Keep going, be proud of who you are and what you've accomplished and forget what others think.

Your personal experience is what's most valid in your life. I think that's great that at 62 guys are cranning their heads around. That's just awesome and it must be a great feeling. And to get carded, even! That's just awesome.

In my experience, pictures aren't worth much, really. They are just a picture, and a person is much more than that. I've seen people with bad or so-so pictures look stunning in real life. Even if those people aren't the media's "ideal" view of beautiful, they can still be beautiful when the walk in the room. Their confidence shines and so does their spirit. It's an amazing thing to see.

So many people try to live to the "ideal" while bringing themselves down unnecessarily. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't think SRS or FFS is worth it; it if helps you to be more confident, that is great. But if we are constantly comparing ourselves to the ideal, we are hanging on to something that will drag us down.  If you want to improve, that's great, and there is nothing wrong with that. But improving oneself and comparing oneself to an ideal is a different thing; one is being the best you can be, and the other is trying to live up to something intangible.

There is no ideal woman (or man). Everyone is different. We all have different body shapes and sizes. Some things can be fixed, and some things can't. And, of course, there will be similarities to our old selves and our new selves -- we're in the same body, even with changes, if one really looks they can find similarities. Just like I can look at non-identical twins and see similarities. I can look at my family, and I can see similarities. But just because there are similarities it doesn't mean we look the same or are the same. I'm a much different person now than I was back then. I might have similarities to the old me, but I'm not the old me.

Being a woman is much more than looks. Much more than the physical. Much more than the way you sound or move your body. It's much deeper than that. And when you have that deeper connection to your womanhood, even if you don't fit some ideal, your soul still shines to the world who you really are. People will pick up on that. People will see that and know that. I don't even know how to explain it. It's just there. And really, that's the most important thing. Above that, looking the part, acting the part and all that are complimentary. It's how you are inside that is the real foundation to who you are.


--natalie :)

I understand that appearance isn't everything. Their are so many other things that can make your or break you. But I believe that If I  honestly tell a trans about her flaws and that she still doesn't fit ideally in the female social life, I'm doing her a favor because then she will know that she needs improvement- in which I believe ANYTHING is possible. When I state about women having curvy bodies, shorter height, small hands & feet, round face, big eyes- I'm talking about the beauty of what is ussaully expected of a women. And if you want to live with these standards than great- if you don't then great.- BUT if you do really wish to live with these standards then I believe someone should give you a honest opinion so you know what needs improvement.

One of you posted  pics of yourself. At some pics you noted that you still looked male and you had some sarcasm with the posts.- if your happy with the body changes HRT has done for you and you could live without having some hottie's face- then that is totally acceptable.

For Example; You could be a millionare and decide that you have a enough money in your life so you don't want to invest in stocks anymore or try to become any richer than you already are.

Same with transitioning.

And yes again appearance isn't everything, you really need deep down be a female. thoughts, manners, they way you approach life, how you deal with problems, your social approach etc all more important than appearance- appearance is just to be in TUNE with who you are it DOESNT make you who you are.


Now someone just mentioned about losing 2 inches. I believe it's possible for me to lose that amount too. although I'm 5 6' which is a great height I desire to 2 inches off. Someone who I mentioned that their bone structure might have changed. Your face got rounder. Congrats.

I just need fat in my cheeks. my bone structure is fine.

I never said improvement wasn't a good thing. I think improvement is just fine. It says so in my last post. But putting someone down isn't a good method to encourage someone to improve (it's called negative reinforcement, and it doesn't work).

And I never said just thinking your female is the all-of-be-all, either. It's a major part, however. Everything is just built on top of that. Of course there is social things, and blah, blah, blah.

And, by the way, negative reinforcement never helps anyone. Being an a$$hole and pretending that you are the bag of chips and all that, come to save us poor souls that look just like men, isn't going to get you far. (There's a difference between being constructive and helpful, and being just an a$$hole about things, which you come across as).

And oh, boo-hoo, you called me a man. Oh no! I don't think I'll got to the club tonight, but instead I'll just stay at home and hide because someone called me a guy.

That's nice that just based on a stupid picture you know so much about me and everyone else in here. But honestly, I don't care. You're some person on the internet. You don't know me in real life. You don't see me day-to-day. So, who are you to judge?

Am I perfect? Hell no! Is anyone perfect? Hell no! And you want to know something: A lot of women don't conform to your little ideal. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I'm sorry, but just going up to a group of TS people and saying, "hey, you all look like men." Isn't going to get you much praise, and no one is going to think that you are their savior doing them a favor by telling them that. Don't you think that ppl have enough issues on their mind to worry about what some know it all kid thinks?

Why don't you try this: Try finding something nice to say for a change, find a good quality. Like, "Wow, I really like your makeup, tell me how you do it." Find a good quality in someone. If you see a so-called "flaw", why not add to it and say. "Wow, I really like your makeup, tell me how do you do your eyes. You know what would look good, if you arched your eye brows just a little bit. Here, let check this site out, it helped me a lot." That's called being constructive with constructive criticism. Just saying, "Wow, you look like a guy!" Does jack all, it just beats people down and makes them feel like nothing.

Everyone has good qualities. Everyone has bad qualities. The trick isn't to constantly cover up the bad qualities and get obsessed about them. The trick is to bring out the good qualities, and use them to your advantage. And when you get to that point, you start working on the other things. You can't work on the negatives if you have no positive ground. Start with finding something good about yourself, and go from there.

--natalie

BAH !! Based on all your pictures---- I am ready for HRT.   ( mock smile of jealous envy )

If all I received from HRT is less facial hair, more on top and smooth skin with a little softening of my male features -- I would be very happy.

Note: Racheal and Natalie,  and do not take this the wrong way -- but you are both HOT!!!  And Racheal how you went to a funeral and dress as a boy is beyond me.   Were there any pictures?   For both of you I can see where you came from from your older pictures in guy mode ( but that guy is gone ).   If either of you shave your head and did not wear makeup , bind your breasts, and wear male clothing, I think you would still be perceived as FEMALE.

Now I just need to see a gender therapist.   And lose some weight.

Daisy

Quote from: daisybelle on October 18, 2007, 04:23:54 PM
BAH !! Based on all your pictures---- I am ready for HRT.   ( mock smile of jealous envy )

If all I received from HRT is less facial hair, more on top and smooth skin with a little softening of my male features -- I would be very happy.

Note: Racheal and Natalie,  and do not take this the wrong way -- but you are both HOT!!!  And Racheal how you went to a funeral and dress as a boy is beyond me.   Were there any pictures?   For both of you I can see where you came from from your older pictures in guy mode ( but that guy is gone ).   If either of you shave your head and did not wear makeup , bind your breasts, and wear male clothing, I think you would still be perceived as FEMALE.

Now I just need to see a gender therapist.   And lose some weight.

Daisy

Awww, thnx.

And that's great! I hope that you can get on your HRT and look forward to the changes it brings.

Hi, Natalie,

Oh dear, why all the venom here today? Come on, gals, lets get along already. I know what it feels like to have someone blatantly tell you you don't pass. What good will that do except upset someone?

Do you remember when you started just how badly you wanted everything to happen yesterday?  Well, it takes time and the hormones have various results on different people. I didn't do a whole lot more than take hormones and use a few Mary Kay products. But I think what really helped me to pass was, since I was a social worker, I knew the first thing that needed some changing was my personality and attitude. Just those two qualities were the magic elixir.

I have been going to several groups in the past seven years, most of which were populated by 90% females. So needless to say in the past seven years I have spent most of my waking hours working with women who never even gave me a second look, not even when I had personal meetings with them, I was just another fellow worker.

Natalie, hon, about the energy you speak of that affects other people, like a kinetic energy that on occasion attracts other souls to you, it is a psychic energy. Some of us have that ability about us.  It can be a really useful wonderful gift.  "Hey you look like a man!" is certainly not the quality that the inner-self would even consider saying blatantly to another person. It is the hormones that facilitate waking up the inner-self, and the emotions a very close second. Emotions that were never so profoundly experienced before by our prior selves.

Has anyone here ever experienced the profound emotions and other sensitivities one will experience? It's like a rainbow with all the different colors in the spectrum of light. It is very much like an awakening and is truly part of such a change in one's perception, seeing reality around them in a different light. The depth of these very profound feelings are equal no matter the reasons that brought them out, whether it be positive and negative. They are equal in depth. This is what touching or synchronizing with the inner-self.

I am not the same person that started 7 years ago, same body but I see things from a different perspective, and an awakening that will continue to evolve each day until I depart from this world.     

But there are some persons on the internet that can actually sense anothers feelings. If people would only get smart and think how another may react to a certain not-so-positive coment. I have noticed one thing that a TS messge board has in common with an empaths or sensitives message board and that is the sensitiveties to positive and negative energy. The biggest problem in a TS message board is those that still react to things through their old selves.   

Cindy

While constructive constructive criticism is something.
If someone asks me for an honest opinion I won't
be blowing smoke up their ass. Doesn't mean I'll
destroy them either.

Honesty done in a respectful way is much better
than obvious lies.

Most time when I see a TS that looks appaling, I bite
my tongue.... But some are a sight to see, and I'm
not talking a good sight. The kind that renders you
blind almost instantly. That they expect anybody
to treat them as women defies all logic. The
best they can expect is being treeted as decently
as human until they pull themselves together
in some way (often that... Huh effect is multi-factorial,
not necessarily just because of the physical component).

makeup? what am makeup? i rarely if ever wear any! theres certainly none in my photos :) (too lazy) thanks daisybelle,
on hrt: depending on your age, hrt CAN recover hair loss to an extent, it sure as hells oftens skin, but facial hair loss is something ive heard is rare in the best of cases...
i dont think im hot by a long stretch, but thanks for your kind words, Nat however, is a sex bomb! :D
R :police:

Hi Keira

Right on woman! and that's the way it should be handled and I was to undertake trying to help someone I would first contact them on PM. first

Cindy

QuoteI understand that appearance isn't everything. Their are so many other things that can make your or break you. But I believe that If I  honestly tell a trans about her flaws and that she still doesn't fit ideally in the female social life, I'm doing her a favor because then she will know that she needs improvement- in which I believe ANYTHING is possible. When I state about women having curvy bodies, shorter height, small hands & feet, round face, big eyes- I'm talking about the beauty of what is usually expected of a women. And if you want to live with these standards than great- if you don't then great.- BUT if you do really wish to live with these standards then I believe someone should give you a honest opinion so you know what needs improvement.

I love arrogance!  When it falls, it falls hard and usually destroys itself.  'tis a shame when it shows itself in such callow youth, but with some hard work, a callow youth can become more humble.

Nero is the "Arbiter of Beauty" on these boards.  I believe that anyone aspiring to that position should ask Nero first.

QuoteI never said improvement wasn't a good thing. I think improvement is just fine. It says so in my last post. But putting someone down isn't a good method to encourage someone to improve (it's called negative reinforcement, and it doesn't work).

And I never said just thinking your female is the all-of-be-all, either. It's a major part, however. Everything is just built on top of that. Of course there is social things, and blah, blah, blah.

And, by the way, negative reinforcement never helps anyone. Being an a$$hole and pretending that you are the bag of chips and all that, come to save us poor souls that look just like men, isn't going to get you far. (There's a difference between being constructive and helpful, and being just an a$$hole about things, which you come across as).

And oh, boo-hoo, you called me a man. Oh no! I don't think I'll got to the club tonight, but instead I'll just stay at home and hide because someone called me a guy.

That's nice that just based on a stupid picture you know so much about me and everyone else in here. But honestly, I don't care. You're some person on the Internet. You don't know me in real life. You don't see me day-to-day. So, who are you to judge?

Well-spoken, Natalie!  I love your attitude!  I am *me* and pits on whoever doesn't like it.  Your postings make sense and sometimes I wish that I thought of them first.

It's wise for one to remember whose toes they stepped on today because they might meet them next week and be in no position for retaliation.

You are also a kind woman, especially for telling a newbie to stop the bad-mouthing and put the judge's robes away, especially for such a young newbie.  Life goes better for those who go with the flow, and who find out who they really are and be the best person they can be.  In our case we have found the woman we are and now we're being the best her that we can be.

For those who like limericks, I leave you with one that has been attributed to Abraham Lincoln:

As to looks, I know I'm no star.
There are others more pretty by far.
But my face, I don't mind it, because I'm behind it.
It's the people in front that I jar! 

LMAO!!!!!

QuoteI am not the same person that started 7 years ago, same body but I see things from a different perspective, and an awakening that will continue to evolve each day until I depart from this world.     

But there are some persons on the Internet that can actually sense another's feelings. If people would only get smart and think how another may react to a certain not-so-positive comment. I have noticed one thing that a TS message board has in common with an empaths or sensitives message board and that is the sensitivities to positive and negative energy. The biggest problem in a TS message board is those that still react to things through their old selves.   

Cindy

Enjoy yourself at the club, Natalie!

Wing Walker
Flying Level and Above this Weather

Racheal,  you disappoint me.  You are a girl  --- hrt has seen to that.   While I believe you see a girl when you look in the mirror....  I do not believe you see the girl you want or could be.  This might be due to funding...... but have patience you will get there. 

Trust me I would trade in a heartbeat to switch from my 42 years position.

Daisy

funding? try none...
this is the only girl i am for a long time...
R :police:

Quote from: Keira on October 18, 2007, 05:54:41 PM

While constructive constructive criticism is something. If someone asks me for an honest opinion I won't be blowing smoke up their ass. Doesn't mean I'll destroy them either. Honesty done in a respectful way is much better than obvious lies.

Most time when I see a TS that looks appaling, I bite my tongue.... But some are a sight to see, and I'm not talking a good sight. The kind that renders you blind almost instantly. That they expect anybody to treat them as women defies all logic. The best they can expect is being treated as decently as human until they pull themselves together in some way (often that... Huh effect is multi-factorial, not necessarily just because of the physical component).

That was put across very well Keira and it's the kind of thing I wanted to say...

Quote from: gothique11 on October 18, 2007, 03:02:58 PM
I never said improvement wasn't a good thing. I think improvement is just fine. It says so in my last post. But putting someone down isn't a good method to encourage someone to improve (it's called negative reinforcement, and it doesn't work).

And I never said just thinking your female is the all-of-be-all, either. It's a major part, however. Everything is just built on top of that. Of course there is social things, and blah, blah, blah.

And, by the way, negative reinforcement never helps anyone. Being an a$$hole and pretending that you are the bag of chips and all that, come to save us poor souls that look just like men, isn't going to get you far. (There's a difference between being constructive and helpful, and being just an a$$hole about things, which you come across as).

And oh, boo-hoo, you called me a man. Oh no! I don't think I'll got to the club tonight, but instead I'll just stay at home and hide because someone called me a guy.

That's nice that just based on a stupid picture you know so much about me and everyone else in here. But honestly, I don't care. You're some person on the internet. You don't know me in real life. You don't see me day-to-day. So, who are you to judge?

Am I perfect? Hell no! Is anyone perfect? Hell no! And you want to know something: A lot of women don't conform to your little ideal. Sorry to burst your bubble.

I'm sorry, but just going up to a group of TS people and saying, "hey, you all look like men." Isn't going to get you much praise, and no one is going to think that you are their savior doing them a favor by telling them that. Don't you think that ppl have enough issues on their mind to worry about what some know it all kid thinks?

Why don't you try this: Try finding something nice to say for a change, find a good quality. Like, "Wow, I really like your makeup, tell me how you do it." Find a good quality in someone. If you see a so-called "flaw", why not add to it and say. "Wow, I really like your makeup, tell me how do you do your eyes. You know what would look good, if you arched your eye brows just a little bit. Here, let check this site out, it helped me a lot." That's called being constructive with constructive criticism. Just saying, "Wow, you look like a guy!" Does jack all, it just beats people down and makes them feel like nothing.

Everyone has good qualities. Everyone has bad qualities. The trick isn't to constantly cover up the bad qualities and get obsessed about them. The trick is to bring out the good qualities, and use them to your advantage. And when you get to that point, you start working on the other things. You can't work on the negatives if you have no positive ground. Start with finding something good about yourself, and go from there.

--natalie

Listen, If I offended you in anyway, I'm sorry.

Your not going to agree with me BUT I never mentioned ANY names! But suddenly your saying that I called you a man, which I NEVER did. And then you start calling me an asswhole- which just shows you have some lack of esteem because I never pointed any fingers at anyone. I think you look pretty in your profile pic. I don't think you could judge me either, I may sound "negative"- but on top of that i'm very incouraging. This is human nature, whenever you point to someone's weakness(I meant to in polite manner) they suddenly try to cover it. We prefer illusions to reality.


And Yes your right, don't go up to T's and tell them you look like men. BUT if they do ask then you should tell them honestly. I didn't intend that i go up to ppl and start picking their flaws. I only intended that if they ask then you should tell them their strenghts and weaknesses. Sugar coating will not do them any good.

and yes your right, you shouldn't always concentrate on your bad traits. if you embrace the good traits more good traits will come out of you.


Anyway, I don't mean to do any harm. If someone wants to shutdown this thread they can do so.

Posted on: October 19, 2007, 05:25:24 PM

---

Quote from: Wing Walker on October 18, 2007, 09:21:02 PM

QuoteI understand that appearance isn't everything. Their are so many other things that can make your or break you. But I believe that If I  honestly tell a trans about her flaws and that she still doesn't fit ideally in the female social life, I'm doing her a favor because then she will know that she needs improvement- in which I believe ANYTHING is possible. When I state about women having curvy bodies, shorter height, small hands & feet, round face, big eyes- I'm talking about the beauty of what is usually expected of a women. And if you want to live with these standards than great- if you don't then great.- BUT if you do really wish to live with these standards then I believe someone should give you a honest opinion so you know what needs improvement.

I love arrogance!  When it falls, it falls hard and usually destroys itself.  'tis a shame when it shows itself in such callow youth, but with some hard work, a callow youth can become more humble.

Nero is the "Arbiter of Beauty" on these boards.  I believe that anyone aspiring to that position should ask Nero first.

QuoteI never said improvement wasn't a good thing. I think improvement is just fine. It says so in my last post. But putting someone down isn't a good method to encourage someone to improve (it's called negative reinforcement, and it doesn't work).

And I never said just thinking your female is the all-of-be-all, either. It's a major part, however. Everything is just built on top of that. Of course there is social things, and blah, blah, blah.

And, by the way, negative reinforcement never helps anyone. Being an a$$hole and pretending that you are the bag of chips and all that, come to save us poor souls that look just like men, isn't going to get you far. (There's a difference between being constructive and helpful, and being just an a$$hole about things, which you come across as).

And oh, boo-hoo, you called me a man. Oh no! I don't think I'll got to the club tonight, but instead I'll just stay at home and hide because someone called me a guy.

That's nice that just based on a stupid picture you know so much about me and everyone else in here. But honestly, I don't care. You're some person on the Internet. You don't know me in real life. You don't see me day-to-day. So, who are you to judge?

Well-spoken, Natalie!  I love your attitude!  I am *me* and pits on whoever doesn't like it.  Your postings make sense and sometimes I wish that I thought of them first.

It's wise for one to remember whose toes they stepped on today because they might meet them next week and be in no position for retaliation.

You are also a kind woman, especially for telling a newbie to stop the bad-mouthing and put the judge's robes away, especially for such a young newbie.  Life goes better for those who go with the flow, and who find out who they really are and be the best person they can be.  In our case we have found the woman we are and now we're being the best her that we can be.

For those who like limericks, I leave you with one that has been attributed to Abraham Lincoln:

As to looks, I know I'm no star.
There are others more pretty by far.
But my face, I don't mind it, because I'm behind it.
It's the people in front that I jar! 

LMAO!!!!!

QuoteI am not the same person that started 7 years ago, same body but I see things from a different perspective, and an awakening that will continue to evolve each day until I depart from this world.     

But there are some persons on the Internet that can actually sense another's feelings. If people would only get smart and think how another may react to a certain not-so-positive comment. I have noticed one thing that a TS message board has in common with an empaths or sensitives message board and that is the sensitivities to positive and negative energy. The biggest problem in a TS message board is those that still react to things through their old selves.   

Cindy

Enjoy yourself at the club, Natalie!

Wing Walker
Flying Level and Above this Weather

May I ask, what is "arrogance" as you define it? How am I arrogant?(according to you)

if their is arrogance in me I'd like to improve it.  I always try to look deep down into a person. I never try to judge based on stereotypes. I always try my best to treat ppl equally and gave them a chance- but I can't always promise this as I'm not a robot. By the way, i don't mean to be smart or anything but why are you connecting arrogance and youth? I think their are many narrow-minded elders, I don't think it's exactly youths.

[/quote]

May I ask, what is "arrogance" as you define it? How am I arrogant?(according to you)

if their is arrogance in me I'd like to improve it.  I always try to look deep down into a person. I never try to judge based on stereotypes. I always try my best to treat ppl equally and gave them a chance- but I can't always promise this as I'm not a robot. By the way, i don't mean to be smart or anything but why are you connecting arrogance and youth? I think their are many narrow-minded elders, I don't think it's exactly youths.
[/quote]

Younger people generally think they know everything.

And while you didn't single out one specific person, you essentially said that "a bunch of you still look like men." That's not a direct quote. I feel that it would be helpful to be aware of the sensitivities in the area you're venturing. You have to remember, we spend YEARS, tears, etc etc changing ourselves. THEN, to have someone come along and point out that "a bunch of you still look like men" is offensive. You don't understand that because you haven't spend any time or energy transitioning. Those of us who have are more sensative to things like that.

Arrogance can be looked at as a lack of humility or being humble. Would you walk into a room full of TS's and go "Some of you look really good, some of you look like sh*t." WITHOUT ANYONE ASKING. You came across as having an attitude of "eww, I hope I don't look like some of THOSE people."


I think your intentions were good, but the way you worded things and came across struck some nerves. Mine being one of them since I'm in your age bracket (I'm 22).

i dont htink her comments were meant to offend, im certainly not...
tho theres a big trend in the transcommunity to not accept unpassability exists... its 'offensive' to tell someone they look male when presenting female. sadly the applied hear no evil, see no evil method doesnt really work...
R :police:

Quote from Tanya1

QuoteMay I ask, what is "arrogance" as you define it? How am I arrogant?(according to you)

if their is arrogance in me I'd like to improve it.  I always try to look deep down into a person. I never try to judge based on stereotypes. I always try my best to treat ppl equally and gave them a chance- but I can't always promise this as I'm not a robot. By the way, i don't mean to be smart or anything but why are you connecting arrogance and youth? I think their are many narrow-minded elders, I don't think it's exactly youths.

Arrogance is readily detected in the way a person writes, especially if a person sets themselves above others and believes that others cannot live, or will live much better, after having that person's advice and comments, in this case about their appearance.

Arrogance is not for the young only, although that is frequently when it starts.  Someone in their callow, inexperienced youth decides that they will tell everyone the truth as *they* see it, without any regard for the feelings of the person for whom they feel the compulsion to give advice or make a comment.

It is best to catch arrogance in youth and stop it before it becomes an unremovable part of the maturing personality.

Sometimes a person will ask how they can improve their arrogance.  There is really no need to work to improve it.  It grows insidiously and does so without any conscious effort to be improved.

Arrogance is not the sole province of youth but that's most often where it starts.

Wing Walker

While I would never set myself to be an arbitrer of passability, since I don't really care either way since its not my life, I do think that there is a big taboo about at least stating our honest opinion about a person's passability (its arrogant if we state that this opinion is universal; it may well be if nobody ever tells a person the truth, or she's not ready to accept it).

One thing that's certain. What's seen as "looking like men" to us, may be perceived differently by non trans, especially in outside trans hotspots. There, it may simply be seen as being unattractive. Many women with "manly" traits exist and they are seen as not attractive, but still women.

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 19, 2007, 05:34:22 PM
...............if their is arrogance in me I'd like to improve it

Totally unnecessary, no improvement needed.

Isn't it time to shut this thread down??.........Anyone??



Bev

we cant do that... half the forum would be homeless till another  topic can be detailed into a slanging match  comes along... we cant have that...
R :police:

Well in order to put this thread back on track and to start a new discussion, Here is a  before and after photo of who I was  11 months ago and who I am now or rather last month

(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/2127_20_10_07_10_15_05.jpg)   

The old photo was taken about 1 week prior to HRT, which I started 11/25/06

And the latest photo taken after 10 months hrt and my current avatar
(https://www.susans.org/forums/gallery/2127_20_10_07_10_16_08.JPG)

I did lost a bit of weight too, But I'm well past a young age at 51 but it's what is possible, if you choose your parents right anyway.  As always your mileage will vary.

Take care

Beni

Hi Beni

"Wow!" You are certainly not the same person as your previous self. Boy, the hormones ever do a job on you, a good one of course. So this goes to show it is possible for us hmmmm, more mature folks, in getting good results.

See the mones are like the fountain of youth for some of us. I still feel like I'm just a teenager most of the time, like I like letting the Id  get out to play with my soul mate every now and again.

Cindy

Wow, Beni, you really have it going, Lady!  I should do so well!

I started my HRT at 51 also and I just turned 56.  I'm happy with the changes that have happened to me,  but you, I'm a wee tad jealous.

Cindy keeps me young, very young. :) :) :)

Stay well and, again, ya done good, Kid!

Wing Walker

Beni, I can defiently see some facial changes. You face is a bit more rounder, skin seems bit more smoother.

In the first picture you look pissed off- like most guys, agressive looking. The second pic you look more calm and relaxed. Hormones have a direct affect on emotions I guess.

Okay I have a question for some of you.

1)I don't know what it is but I'm getting some stares from women and some smiling. -Last night, I don't whether it was because I went to the movies in my pajamas or what but I'm getting some stares even without the pajamas. Like women being more polite. It's defiently not  because of physical changes- as that's a bit early. could it be from subconsious behavior or something?

2) do you ladies feel cold after starting HRT?- I'm more senstive to cold.

3) Also do men treat any of you like a little kid?

For me, and I'll admit that HRT has been very kind to me, The estrogen has affected the mental and emotional portions of my mind as much as they have effected my body.  From loss of muscle mass my shoulders got narrower,  lost a lot of muscle mass everywhere. increased fat ratio, Yes my face is rounder even though I've lost at least 50 pounds.  It also changed the eye lid shape, nose a bit and even lips.  But the results may not be typical, as we all respond to lesser or greater degrees. 

Emotionally I am just lots calmer,  Love who I am, had a loss of spacial awareness. pretty much everything has changed to some degree or another including sexual attraction in my case.  The first photo was about 2 weeks after I told the love of my life that I was female inside, with much loss / pain inside.  That pain is only now going away slowly.

So what can you expect after one year.  well anywhere from not much to just great gob's of changes to the point where who you were to who you are are two completely different people both inside and outside.

Just my two cents, and from my perspective. Your's in any case will be different as we are each different

  Best of luck to you

Beni

Hi Beni

I agree with what you said, from what I have gathered thus far the hormones developed at a different rate and time for some. There are those that get the max from the hormones and some not really that much.

The first two things it affected on me was the boobs and my personality. I mean I am really not certain which was growing the fastest. my boobs or my emotions. Now my face has improved quite a lot and I have some hips and I ain't complainin none.
   
Hi Tanya

Stares from people I have got use to, they use to stare at me even before I ever started transition. I even got tired of telling them to take a picture, it might last longer.

I feel and think that the only thing that changed since I have transitioned is that the stares are much more softened or more casual then they were before. I get stared at a lot by children and I I don't mind that either. I also attract animals, the little ones especially, even on a city street.   

About the feeling cold I for the past 10 years have become less and less tolerant of the cold. My Soul mate an I were thinking about moving to somewhere in the south US where the climate is more tolerable but some international regulations prevented that so we ended up moving to Vancouver BC. at least where it rarely gets down to freezing in the winter. I don't think my growing intolerance to the cold had anything to do with the hormones though, I believe this intolerance had been going on for some years before I started on the hormones.

Well I don't really about men treating me like a little kid but I do love being treated like a lady, and that is a wonderful difference.

Cindy 

Quote from: cindybc on October 21, 2007, 04:47:22 PM
Hi Beni

I agree with what you said, from what I have gathered thus far the hormones developed at a different rate and time for some. There are those that get the max from the hormones and some not really that much.

The first two things it affected on me was the boobs and my personality. I mean I am really not certain which was growing the fastest. my boobs or my emotions. Now my face has improved quite a lot and I have some hips and I ain't complainin none.
   
Hi Tanya

Stares from people I have got use to, they use to stare at me even before I ever started transition. I even got tired of telling them to take a picture, it might last longer.

I feel and think that the only thing that changed since I have transitioned is that the stares are much more softened or more casual then they were before. I get stared at a lot by children and I I don't mind that either. I also attract animals, the little ones especially, even on a city street.   

About the feeling cold I for the past 10 years have become less and less tolerant of the cold. My Soul mate an I were thinking about moving to somewhere in the south US where the climate is more tolerable but some international regulations prevented that so we ended up moving to Vancouver BC. at least where it rarely gets down to freezing in the winter. I don't think my growing intolerance to the cold had anything to do with the hormones though, I believe this intolerance had been going on for some years before I started on the hormones.

Well I don't really about men treating me like a little kid but I do love being treated like a lady, and that is a wonderful difference.

Cindy 

Thanks,

IDK, maybe it's just in my head.-But I 'm defiently getting stared down. I'll test this out for 2 more weeks to be more conculsive.

Well I like hot climate- my mood is generally much more vibrant in the summer.

Ohh Beni, thanks for the replying- it helped me understand a lot!

more questions though guys lol

1) if you date women will they notice something is up with your body? hugging you?

2) if they found out how will they react?

3) HRT after only a month has totally killed my sex drive, no joke, I hate sex for some reason. will women leave me if I tell them I don't like to have sex? or at least only once in a while? would they be able to put up only having a intimate relationship w/ just cuddling, kissing?

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 21, 2007, 05:43:14 PM

Thanks,

IDK, maybe it's just in my head.-But I 'm defiently getting stared down. I'll test this out for 2 more weeks to be more conculsive.

Well I like hot climate- my mood is generally much more vibrant in the summer.

Ohh Beni, thanks for the replying- it helped me understand a lot!

more questions though guys lol

1) if you date women will they notice something is up with your body? hugging you?

2) if they found out how will they react?

3) HRT after only a month has totally killed my sex drive, no joke, I hate sex for some reason. will women leave me if I tell them I don't like to have sex? or at least only once in a while? would they be able to put up only having a intimate relationship w/ just cuddling, kissing?

Hehe I don't date right now for that reason. . . as for friends hugging and stuff, eventually they'll notice, but you can get away with it for a couple months probably before they'll catch on.  I'm not too sure on the reaction yet, I'll let you know if anyone I'm not out to catches on here.  As for the sex drive, that's another reason for the not dating.  It all comes down to personality of the person your dating really, so if you find someone make sure to discuss it with them. 

what do you mean about hugging? whats to notice?
and in terms of sex drive, i went from none, to being quite interested in boys...
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 21, 2007, 06:11:53 PM
what do you mean about hugging? whats to notice?
R :police:

Those things on your chest :P

yah, breasts? so?
R :police:

you are probably more likely to notice it than them, as when you get hugged it can hurt  :-\

still hurts when people hug me actually lol.

Quote from: Rachael on October 21, 2007, 06:16:57 PM
yah, breasts? so?
R :police:

The people your not out to but still see once in a while. . . You know when you hug them bye and stuff like that.  At least that's what I got from Tanya's post.  Not to mention it hurts when people hug you for us "young one's" still.

Posted on: October 21, 2007, 06:20:16 PM

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Quote from: Kat on October 21, 2007, 06:19:40 PM
you are probably more likely to notice it than them, as when you get hugged it can hurt  :-\

still hurts when people hug me actually lol.

Haha and you typed that at the exact same time as me Kat. 

Quote
Haha and you typed that at the exact same time as me Kat. 

Soar boobies think alike

Kat your avatar is cute...

Daisy

Quote from: Rachael on October 19, 2007, 07:07:36 PM
i dont think her comments were meant to offend, im certainly not...
tho theres a big trend in the transcommunity to not accept unpassability exists... its 'offensive' to tell someone they look male when presenting female. sadly the applied hear no evil, see no evil method doesnt really work...
R :police:

I agree.....


Posted on: October 21, 2007, 07:33:03 PM

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Quote from: Keira on October 20, 2007, 12:19:32 AM
While I would never set myself to be an arbitrer of passability, since I don't really care either way since its not my life, I do think that there is a big taboo about at least stating our honest opinion about a person's passability (its arrogant if we state that this opinion is universal; it may well be if nobody ever tells a person the truth, or she's not ready to accept it).

One thing that's certain. What's seen as "looking like men" to us, may be perceived differently by non trans, especially in outside trans hotspots. There, it may simply be seen as being unattractive. Many women with "manly" traits exist and they are seen as not attractive, but still women.

...another very good post...

Hi, Shanetastic,

I never dated since transitioning, I just had my Soul Mate walk into my life and it just happens that neither of us were interested in physical sex with neither women or men. Intimacy yes, this was what I was most interested in, as well as she. Actually, all previous relationships didn't work out too well because to a greater extent they needed  and wanted more then just intimacy.

So I just never bothered trying to get involved in another relationship until some years later when I met my Soul Mate *in this group.* I also have another good friend on Long Island, a GG, we share what one could call a synergy. She was a great mentor I could go to when ever I was in need of one.

Even though I wish I would have started this journey sooner I am happy that at least I didn't' miss the bus. As for friends knowing something is different about you, I believe if they are in any way attuned at all, then it is quite possible they will know a difference. They could feel or notice a difference, maybe body language, maybe facial expressions, and other changes such as one's personality, also by how one expresses themselves. These are all characteristics that may be noticed however subtle the changes might be. All these changes are inevitable as you evolve further into being who you truly are, intentionally or not? I  believe there is only one choice if you are truly TS and that is inevitably it's do or die.

Cindy

oh right, not out, uh, well ones that knew me before, im out to, others, im just a girl... so i dont have that issue,
hey, trust me, when you crush em, they still scream in plain even when thier grown... ;)
R :police:

Quote from: cindybc on October 21, 2007, 07:35:54 PM

Hi, Shanetastic,

I never dated since transitioning, I just had my Soul Mate walk into my life and it just happens that neither of us were interested in physical sex with neither women or men. Intimacy yes, this was what I was most interested in, as well as she. Actually, all previous relationships didn't work out too well because to a greater extent they needed  and wanted more then just intimacy.

So I just never bothered trying to get involved in another relationship until some years later when I met my Soul Mate *in this group.* I also have another good friend on Long Island, a GG, we share what one could call a synergy. She was a great mentor I could go to when ever I was in need of one.

Even though I wish I would have started this journey sooner I am happy that at least I didn't' miss the bus. As for friends knowing something is different about you, I believe if they are in any way attuned at all, then it is quite possible they will know a difference. They could feel or notice a difference, maybe body language, maybe facial expressions, and other changes such as one's personality, also by how one expresses themselves. These are all characteristics that may be noticed however subtle the changes might be. All these changes are inevitable as you evolve further into being who you truly are, intentionally or not? I  believe there is only one choice if you are truly TS and that is inevitably it's do or die.

Cindy

Hey Cindy,

That post was really interesting, so thank you for sharing it.   For the time being for myself, I'm just not content with my body in order to start dating, so that's another reason why I wouldn't think of doing it right now.  I'm always open for someone new to be a friend, although right now it's my like right inbetween stages, so I have to be careful in new friends that I make.  Most people that I'm around have already noticed some subtle personality changes, but for the most part I don't think they'll pick up on it because my physical changes are still minimal. 

As for my friends, most of them are off in college, and the only one that is still living here has sort of noticed a shift in myself, somehow, so we are't talking too much right now because we don't have much in common.  I only have three friends to come out to, so right now I'm still stuck deciding on when and how to come out to them.  I have a couple months since I won't see them until December, but that doesn't mean I should procrastinate I know. 

Hi Shanetastic

Well only you will know when the time has come for you to introduce yourself to the rest of the world as yourself, but from what I gather you are already well on the way into transitioning. When I came out there was little options available, and if you are young don't get in to much of a rush. Let yourself grow into it spiritually and mentally as well as the physical progress.

For me an elder person it came to either go full time or end my life, no middle road in this game so I decided on the former decision which sounded much more appealing to me then a Manila Hemp tie.

I really don't know your age but when you are younger, coming out is still a choice of yes or no but  only temporarily. As for me in time it becomes more part of the survival instinct.

Cindy   

Quote from: Kat on October 21, 2007, 06:19:40 PM
you are probably more likely to notice it than them, as when you get hugged it can hurt  :-\

still hurts when people hug me actually lol.

Mine hurt all the time, but that is what I get for quick growth. 

Quote from: Berliegh on October 21, 2007, 07:34:08 PM



Posted on: October 21, 2007, 07:33:03 PM

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Quote from: Keira on October 20, 2007, 12:19:32 AM
While I would never set myself to be an arbitrer of passability, since I don't really care either way since its not my life, I do think that there is a big taboo about at least stating our honest opinion about a person's passability (its arrogant if we state that this opinion is universal; it may well be if nobody ever tells a person the truth, or she's not ready to accept it).

One thing that's certain. What's seen as "looking like men" to us, may be perceived differently by non trans, especially in outside trans hotspots. There, it may simply be seen as being unattractive. Many women with "manly" traits exist and they are seen as not attractive, but still women.

...another very good post...

Best post on passing ever. 
It speaks more to the reality of passing.  To tell you the truth I am passing rather well in DC.  Again, not a trans-aware city.
 

Quote from: cindybc on October 22, 2007, 02:18:00 AM


I really don't know your age but when you are younger, coming out is still a choice of yes or no but  only temporarily. As for me in time it becomes more part of the survival instinct.

Cindy   

I think i speak for every young trans person when i say your wrong. You might have been able to live through a longer part of your life without transition, but doesnt mean we can. Personally, i agree with you, it was transition or die. Dont try and tell us  because were young we have so much time on out hands and that our coming out is less important...
R :police:

That is not what I meant and I am sorry if I came off sounding like that.  What I meant is that being a younger person at least gives you time to work out any hang-ups and problems facing a transperson. 

As for the effects and the end product, we discussed that on many different occasions on this thread and other threads. An important subject of discussion, to be sure. The effects of the mones can vary greatly from one individual to another. The difference in age can also greatly influence the effectiveness of the hormones.  The type of hormones taken is another thing.

Basically what I am saying is that the younger TS at least have time on their side compared to an elder.  The results of HRT are individualized but those who transition at a younger age seem to have more pleasing results. 

If I am way off to left field, I will refrain from participating on this thread.

Cindy     

Quote from: Rachael on October 22, 2007, 03:06:07 AM

Quote from: cindybc on October 22, 2007, 02:18:00 AM


I really don't know your age but when you are younger, coming out is still a choice of yes or no but  only temporarily. As for me in time it becomes more part of the survival instinct.

Cindy   

I think i speak for every young trans person when i say your wrong. You might have been able to live through a longer part of your life without transition, but doesnt mean we can. Personally, i agree with you, it was transition or die. Dont try and tell us  because were young we have so much time on out hands and that our coming out is less important...
R :police:

I agree with you Rachael. But what happened to me was I started young but still ended up being older because of the U.K NHS system...a lot of time was lost and I don't want that to happen to younger transitioners in the U.K like yourself.

I have been working with various people and organisations to prevent the 'stalling' that some of the NHS GIC Clinics promote ...

It's good that you have managed to start on HRT as soon as you did..

well first through self medication out of desperation! now because of my genetic mess the doc thinks its wise...
im with you nicole... im having a hard job looking anything but female, and i know the soreness thing on the face! omg i do! i havent had any hair removal yet, but dont need much, hrt is clearing a lot, but i do intend to get some, cos my skin so sensative i cut and rash instantly, even at the slightest softest shave >< i dont have enough to shaddow, but i dont really want to let it grow for laser, is it that necesery to have stubble for that? EW, any road up, less that 1mm stubble takes nearly 2 weeks ><

R :police:

mines nearly gone from my toplip because of hrt... :D
i have less there than some natal girls :D
R :police:

The only place I grow facial hair is on my chin and right around my adams apple oddly enough.  I don't really understand why it was always impossible to grow hair, but I'll accept that as a blessing for the time being :D


Going back to Cindy now,

QuoteHi Shanetastic

Well only you will know when the time has come for you to introduce yourself to the rest of the world as yourself, but from what I gather you are already well on the way into transitioning. When I came out there was little options available, and if you are young don't get in to much of a rush. Let yourself grow into it spiritually and mentally as well as the physical progress.

For me an elder person it came to either go full time or end my life, no middle road in this game so I decided on the former decision which sounded much more appealing to me then a Manila Hemp tie.

I really don't know your age but when you are younger, coming out is still a choice of yes or no but  only temporarily. As for me in time it becomes more part of the survival instinct.

Cindy   

I'm really taking it slow for the time being, I'm 19 by the way, so yeah still a little young.  Just my parents and I decided to rather take it slow so that everyone has time to adjust and everything, which I agree with, I'm in no real hurry anyways.  Still have to finish up school until December, so I have some time for sure.

As for the problems we faced, for me it was a different one.  It wasn't so much as going full time or ending it, it was a matter of doing something and stop living a pointless life or ending it.  I know, a little different, but still somewhat similar problems in a sense I guess. 

As for the whole coming out part, my brother is next in line, then my one best friend that I think will be okay with it.  Really, the only person that matters to me for acceptance is my brother, and I think he is really open and accepting of people who are gay and stuff, so I can only hope he'll be accepting of me.  After all, he lives in San Fran, and they all think one of his roommates is gay and no one cares anyways haha.  In all honesty though, I lost most of my friends when I moved away a while ago to get rid of everyone, so even if no one decides to be my friend through this, I'll be okay with it.  I have a support group and people in there to be my friend gosh :P

QuoteWhat I meant is that being a younger person at least gives you time to work out any hang-ups and problems facing a transperson. 

This is true as well I think to some extent.  I know everyone's case is different, but really, the only hang up and problems that I've encountered so far was getting my therapist to agree with me lol .  She didn't have very much experience on this whole matter, so things got aggrivating at times, but that's been the only problem so far.  Now the next problem will come after Christmas, when that "slowly transitioning" thing starts to take place.  By then I should have like four months of HRT, so I figured I could start slowly adapting to this for both my sake and my parents.  But until then, no worries really!  Besides if this laser hair removal will work on my chin and neck :P

I've been on HRT (without the spiro) for, like, two months?  It's not magic, but the first thing I noticed was my arms slimming down and my hips shaping up a bit.  Both make me very happy, especially the arms as they were a big source of anxiety for me (I've never had any body fat to speak of.)  As my roommate said, who has noticed the differences also, a year ago I was "cut from wood" and now I'm just soft.

It's not going to be like someone plunking a magic wand on your head and making all the bad things go away, so just get over it.  It takes a lot of time, no matter who you are, and while I sometimes worry if the changes I see are imaginary, I know my own body well enough to realize they aren't.  It's subtle and it's gradual.  After all, once you get on HRT, does any amount of understanding the effects beforehand affect your results?  No, it doesn't.  This is something outside of your control.  So do what I do and be happy with what you get.

Sooo...  just go for it and see what happens?  There's no other way to find out, and I will say that no matter who you are, the mental effects are wonderful.  I feel like a toxin has been removed from my body, and I can think much more clearly.

Just take it all with a grain of salt.

~ BB

Shanetastic: your so lucky, when i told my parents, they threw me out... i didnt ask anything for them, but they claimed i was hurting them, and i should give up myself, my life, my hopes and dreams, and even my happyness, for them, for thier happyness and hopes and dreams...
what a crock o S***
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 22, 2007, 12:55:39 PM
Shanetastic: your so lucky, when i told my parents, they threw me out... i didnt ask anything for them, but they claimed i was hurting them, and i should give up myself, my life, my hopes and dreams, and even my happyness, for them, for thier happyness and hopes and dreams...
what a crock o S***
R :police:

Yeah I know I'm really lucky for just having parents that don't really care, "As long as I'm happy."  Heh, so I guess I got on the lucky side of that.  They even have paid for my therapy and doctor visits so far.  But from what it seems like Rachael, least everything has worked out for you as it seems from what I have read here and there.  I don't get how you could have taken that or made it through, but I'm sure it made you a better person, after all, I don't think anyone wants you to inherit those traits your parents have showed you :D

Anyways, I'm glad your doing fine now, and hopefully they'll come around soemtime in their lifetime.  Normally people tend to do that, from what I've seen.

what have you read here and there about me doing alright?[/shock]
R :police:

Haha oh gosh challenging my memory now!!!

Well lets see. . . you have a doctor (I think that's something to be happy about) :D  You took that photo and sent it in for that magazine right?  And what else, my memory isn't the best haha.  My lurking skills are too great!  But my memory isn't!

did a mag shoot once, yeah, i my general practiioner (physitian) prescribes me hrt from a IS specialist endos say so, after much fighting for even that, i wont get to see the nhs gender clinic therapists for another 5 years... i cant afford a private one, good thing: loosing weight bad reason: i cant afford to eat since my parents threw me out and i lost my part time job with staff cuts... its my 21st birthday tomorrow, and im wondering if anyone of my numerous fiends will find the time to remember. and i doubt my parents will aknowlage it, my grandmother, the only member of my family who loved me still (cos my parents wouldnt let me tell her ><) died last week.
my lifes pretty crumby right now...
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 22, 2007, 01:41:16 PM
did a mag shoot once, yeah, i my general practiioner (physitian) prescribes me hrt from a IS specialist endos say so, after much fighting for even that, i wont get to see the nhs gender clinic therapists for another 5 years... i cant afford a private one, good thing: loosing weight bad reason: i cant afford to eat since my parents threw me out and i lost my part time job with staff cuts... its my 21st birthday tomorrow, and im wondering if anyone of my numerous fiends will find the time to remember. and i doubt my parents will aknowlage it, my grandmother, the only member of my family who loved me still (cos my parents wouldnt let me tell her ><) died last week.
my lifes pretty crumby right now...
R :police:

Well first off,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! (tomorrow of course but if I forget :D)

As for the part time job and staff cuts, I can relate to you there.  My job just did the same thing, but I kept it but am hardly working there anymore so I'm looking for a new job as well.  As for your grandmother, I'm sorry about that :(  I can't relate much to that because none of our relatives in my family actually care to talk to us or send us happy birthday or christmas cards or anything.  By the way, you seem pretty social, don't you have like a support group of friends you can talk to about this to help?  I know I'm trying to keep the optimism high, when in reality it's not.

Hi shanetastic

Thank you for your response. That is what I meant by being younger at least one has time on their side, *not could put it off indefinitely,* sorry if that was the impression I gave.. I think it is wonderful to see young people have an early start at their new life.

When I was here 7 years ago there were not as many young folks, actually young members in their teens were near none existent back then. It is wonderful to see young people  begin a new life that will be an ongoing learning experience for a good many years ahead of them. So you see an older person may not have all the options that a younger person have the opportunity to accomplish, not just in the trade or work force but in their private lives as well.

I was lucky, maybe I had a guardian angel watching over me. I had my mate before I even started full time. In comparison to the first two relationships I had this one feels like in was made in paradise in comparison.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on October 22, 2007, 01:48:43 PM
Hi shanetastic

Thank you for your response. That is what I meant by being younger at least one has time on their side, *not could put it off indefinitely,* sorry if that was the impression I gave.. I think it is wonderful to see young people have an early start at their new life.

When I was here 7 years ago there were not as many young folks, actually young members in their teens were near none existent back then. It is wonderful to see young people  begin a new life that will be an ongoing learning experience for a good many years ahead of them. So you see an older person may not have all the options that a younger person have the opportunity to accomplish, not just in the trade or work force but in their private lives as well.

I was lucky, maybe I had a guardian angel watching over me. I had my mate before I even started full time. In comparison to the first two relationships I had this one feels like in was made in paradise in comparison.

Cindy

Cindy   

I didn't think that you meant to put it off indefinitely, so no worries.  I've already tried that and thought I could success :P  (yes bad mistake).  I understand what you are trying to say, being young you still have that will and anxious to get started, but ultimately, you have more time to do it right in a sense I think is what you were trying to say.  I have to agree with you in the sense that the young people of today are really blesses indeed.  It's not to have a world that's a little bit more understanding of this.  Of course, the medical field has progressed severly within those years as well.

I still think we still share some of the same problems as well though, but for the most part, the new generation (Y I think it is?) is much more understanding and accepting for the most part.  The one thing my parents are always concerned about, which I'm trying to break them away from, is the fact that they think that everyone is a horrible person and lives to discriminate.  I'm pretty realistic in the sense that some people are horrible indeed, but that doesn't mean everyone is.

As for options for younger people, I believe that compared to the older transitioners, we do have more options as well.  Sure, we'll miss out on some things too, such as a family and kids, but I never wanted a family and kids as living as a male either way.  Yes, I'm still like the 4812043 others people out there who wish they would have started earlier, because I hit an intense growth spirt and grew way too tall!!!  But still regardless, just something that happened and nothing to worry about in the long run I don't think.  No use in trying to change the past when it's already over :P

When people normally see younger people transitioning, this is what I've heard from them, "Unlike me, when your done with this process, you'll have a lot greater of a chance that this whole TS past thing can be put behind for the most part" (from a couple older TS people who said they didn't pass so well).  Sure, I don't agree with that in some ways, but still, I can always hope that it won't be that thing at the surface always bothering me.  Either way, thanks for the reply cindy, and hopefully that's sums up a little bit about the different perspectives of what at least I think of younger and older people.


I forgot to add, really in some extent, I don't know who has it easier, the older people or younger.  I have to tell the school in which I decide to go about this and change all my transcripts and stuff when I finally get to that stage.  But compare that to coming out to work and stuff, either one is hard.  For the time being, I still don't know what I'm going to do about my living situation when I move or anything, and if I do that through the school it's going to be really challenging to say the least I think.  So that's another major concern right now.  I know this can be considered that ongoing learning experience I guess, but it's going to be an awkward stage if I can't find an apartment and have to live on campus or something like that.  I guess that's part of the beginning a new life?  And the complications that come with it. 

Quote from: shanetastic on October 22, 2007, 01:46:55 PM

Quote from: Rachael on October 22, 2007, 01:41:16 PM
did a mag shoot once, yeah, i my general practiioner (physitian) prescribes me hrt from a IS specialist endos say so, after much fighting for even that, i wont get to see the nhs gender clinic therapists for another 5 years... i cant afford a private one, good thing: loosing weight bad reason: i cant afford to eat since my parents threw me out and i lost my part time job with staff cuts... its my 21st birthday tomorrow, and im wondering if anyone of my numerous fiends will find the time to remember. and i doubt my parents will aknowlage it, my grandmother, the only member of my family who loved me still (cos my parents wouldnt let me tell her ><) died last week.
my lifes pretty crumby right now...
R :police:

Well first off,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! (tomorrow of course but if I forget :D)

As for the part time job and staff cuts, I can relate to you there.  My job just did the same thing, but I kept it but am hardly working there anymore so I'm looking for a new job as well.  As for your grandmother, I'm sorry about that :(  I can't relate much to that because none of our relatives in my family actually care to talk to us or send us happy birthday or christmas cards or anything.  By the way, you seem pretty social, don't you have like a support group of friends you can talk to about this to help?  I know I'm trying to keep the optimism high, when in reality it's not.

friends? yes, ones i could talk to about this? no, not really, one, but shes got the hump with me atm over a guy ><, but i dont feel like i have the right to burden my friends with this, id rather they forget it tbh...
R :police:

wow nice post guys.

That's what friends are there for though.  If they have any problems they can openly talk to me, and vise versa.  Of course, it's hard to find a friend like that because being open with people is really difficult and you have to have a lot of trust in that person I understand.

Quotewow nice post guys.

Sorry for the sorta thread jacking Tanya, but I think this somewhat has to deal with transitioning :P

Quote from: shanetastic on October 22, 2007, 01:58:06 PM
The one thing my parents are always concerned about, which I'm trying to break them away from, is the fact that they think that everyone is a horrible person and lives to discriminate.

My parents are the same way, as are a few older people I know. Every time I TRY to tell them I get along just fine, that no one cares (who knows about my past), I always get this "Really? Well, I bet they DO care but just won't say anything" cynicism. It drives me crazy, I just can't convince them that 1) No one cared about me transitioning, and 2) I'm just an ordinary, kinda ugly middle-aged woman now, not "him" crossdressing in public.

Quotebecause I hit an intense growth spirt and grew way too tall!!!

I'm 6'2".... and it hasn't been a problem (which really surprised me), except that guys seem to find it... interesting, lol.

~Kate~

Hi shanetastic

Thanks again for your response. Since this is the first time I have come across young transpeople then of course it has got my attention and inquisitiveness.  I am interested in learning about how the younger folks feel and think and what patterns and options they take to adapting to this never before explored territory. It was scary enough for me and because I felt I had no time to loose I felt I needed to speed up the process by outing myself before I even began the hormones. It certainly has been an interesting experience to actually watch and feel all the changes. What I had dreamed of for so long was finally happening. I was lucky I was also was able to keep my job as Social Worker.

As for the family scene, yes I always dreamed of having a family more from a mothers perspective then I did as a fathers. Well I got married and had three children but it was a very unhappy circumstances, a horrid experience with my ex to tell the truth. Circumstances just kept deteriorating to the point that I feared it could end up costing someone's life so we went our own way. After that I partnered with another girl from the res and between the two of us we had 9 foster children go under our roof through the years. I still love kids and there isn't more I would love then to have foster children again. 

Well on Wednesday I am going for an interview as a volunteer support worker for Trans people. I have worked with recovering alcoholics, addicts, street people, abused moms and children, and mental health consumers but this is something i had always hoped to do some day to show my  gratitude for what I received from the very same people all those years ago. I am extremely sensitive to other people which can be an asset but also can leave me quite vulnerable to being hurt.  I imagine there will be some of the younger people there as well so, I Truly thank you all for all of the younger people here for being my teacher.

Cindy     

Quote from: cindybc on October 22, 2007, 03:07:34 PM
Hi shanetastic

Thanks again for your response. Since this is the first time I have come across young transpeople then of course it has got my attention and inquisitiveness.  I am interested in learning about how the younger folks feel and think and what patterns and options they take to adapting to this never before explored territory. It was scary enough for me and because I felt I had no time to loose I felt I needed to speed up the process by outing myself before I even began the hormones. It certainly has been an interesting experience to actually watch and feel all the changes. What I had dreamed of for so long was finally happening. I was lucky I was also was able to keep my job as Social Worker.

As for the family scene, yes I always dreamed of having a family more from a mothers perspective then I did as a fathers. Well I got married and had three children but it was a very unhappy circumstances, a horrid experience with my ex to tell the truth. Circumstances just kept deteriorating to the point that I feared it could end up costing someone's life so we went our own way. After that I partnered with another girl from the res and between the two of us we had 9 foster children go under our roof through the years. I still love kids and there isn't more I would love then to have foster children again. 

Well on Wednesday I am going for an interview as a volunteer support worker for Trans people. I have worked with recovering alcoholics, addicts, street people, abused moms and children, and mental health consumers but this is something i had always hoped to do some day to show my  gratitude for what I received from the very same people all those years ago. I am extremely sensitive to other people which can be an asset but also can leave me quite vulnerable to being hurt.  I imagine there will be some of the younger people there as well so, I Truly thank you all for all of the younger people here for being my teacher.

Cindy     

Hey again Cindy,

Yes my procrastination of homework is going excellent today because of the super interesting posts on here :)  But on any note, I think I can spot the big difference here from at least my perspective.  From what it seems like older people are more into the instant change and speeding of the process to some extent.  I can understand how not everyone would be the same here, but from what it seems like, once the whole ordeal with the family is sorted out, people are excited and especially ready to change after waiting so long as it seems. 

First off though, I don't have any specific way of defining an older person as to a younger person, it's all person in a sense. Also though, it seems to me as if older people can get away with the faster change because over the years they have accumulated more self acceptance and self esteem as it is.  This again is totally my perception and could be way way different from others.  The reason I say that, although; is because the very few limited people I have met who are young to an extent have wanted to wait until they have gotten some use out of the hormones before experimenting outside of their normal selves in a way.  I believe we are more critical of ourself and our flaws at a younger age because of the media, television, and so on as well.  The same can be said about older people too though I presume, just I don't think it bothers them as much.

That's all I can muster up about that for now from what I have noticed.  Also Cindy, I'm a sociology major and am going to try to go into social work if my grades and test scores don't get me into med school, that's my backup plan :)  So looks like we have something in common there.  I also volunteer at a homeless shelter a couple times a week and help the kids there on some free spare time I have.

i dont quite know how you older people managed to wait, for me, it was as life and death as you described, i simply couldnt stay this pretend person anymore. my act was failing and hurting me. and i simply couldnt continue it.  It seems the attitudes of older transitioners and younger differs, to be expected id say. Older folk, and young folk dont EVER have the same views of things! this is just life, we deal with family in a much more dependent way, you deal from a different side. you can be atleast financially able! i didnt eat last week so i could pay for my medication and get a book for class... it sucks haveing to do this, not having any parents makes it worse, i stay in, while my classmates party, i stay at uni during birthdays (tomorrow) and probably christmas to come. i only have me in the world now. and its scary. I just knew i couldnt playact anymore. for better and for worse, i had to do this. Some of the comments on the forums are sickening, 'unpassable/older (not necesrily linked) people need grs BEFORE the younger and more passable types, SIMPLY because apparnetly, being younger, or more passable, means your dysphoria is much less, and you dont need the validation of having a correct body...
I burst into tears when i see my body i the shower, i avoid getting serious with boys, i cry myself to sleep most nights. its a disgusting thing and because i pass so well, and because im younger and possibly 'prettyer' to these people, its not an issue? whatever... imo its worse... it certainly looks more out of place...
and my fav comment ever:Younger transitioners have it easier.... BULL FRACKING *excrament* its just as hard, but attitudes make it 10 times worse...
R :police:

Hi Shantastic

QuoteI'm a sociology major and am going to try to go into social work

That's great, I pray it all works out for you, if it goes that you become a social worker please stay in touch I think we could probably have allot in common to talk about. If you are one that really cares for those who are less fortunate then you will find your work as social worker very fruitful.

I just decided to either go back working part time of volunteer because there just simply to much time of doing nothin, it's driving me nuts.  As for being youthful in nature "hee, hee" there have been a lot of people on Yahoo groups I go to who think I'm a big kid.  ;D

Thanks for sharing

Cindy

Rachael I couldn't agree with you more oh my.

Also you have to be one of the younger ones who have it hard as he**.  I'm not dependent on my parents and never have been always incase they decided to disown me or kick me out or something, so I've always been prepared for that.  As for the whole waiting until older to transition, I couldn't agree with your statement more:

Quotei dont quite know how you older people managed to wait, for me, it was as life and death as you described, i simply couldnt stay this pretend person anymore. my act was failing and hurting me. and i simply couldnt continue it.

That pretty much sums it up as well for me too.  Sure, I'm still living as a male, but I'm slowly changing into who I want and not pretending to be some lie and live this fake crappy life anymore.  Now I'm doing something about it to make myself happier for the rest of my life. 

As for the passing and being linked to the dysphoria is much less, I'm not exactly there, but I understand you though as well.  The problem is though, when we're young we can't offord like anything besides HRT, school, therapy, and a place to live.  Right now if my parents disowned me, that's all I would be able to offord, and even then that would be really hard when were young and have the crappy jobs that no one else wants for minimum wage. 

As for the everyone else having fun, and staying in while everyone is out enjoying themselves, this is another thing I can relate to.  For the time being I just have a difficult time relating to people, and whenever they're getting drunk or partying, I'm off working trying to earn money to support myself and pay for everything that is soon to come.  I'm here trying hard in school to get good grades so I can hopefully support myself fully sometime, while everyone else is just off not caring for the most part.

Younger transitioners don't exactly have it easier I know.  Therapy is ridiculously expensive, especially when they won't write you the letter for a freaking year, as is going to the doctor when it's not covered by insurance.  Weeks worth of pay just dissapear for the most part when I have to pay for this stuff.  Throw in car insurance, food, gas, school, books, and then it gets really difficult.  If my parents didn't pay for my tuition I would probably not be in school right now.

Posted on: October 22, 2007, 03:41:29 PM

---

Quote from: cindybc on October 22, 2007, 03:35:18 PM
Hi Shantastic

QuoteI'm a sociology major and am going to try to go into social work

That's great, I pray it all works out for you, if it goes that you become a social worker please stay in touch I think we could probably have allot in common to talk about. If you are one that really cares for those who are less fortunate then you will find your work as social worker very fruitful.

I just decided to either go back working part time of volunteer because there just simply to much time of doing nothin, it's driving me nuts.  As for being youthful in nature "hee, hee" there have been a lot of people on Yahoo groups I go to who think I'm a big kid.  ;D

Thanks for sharing

Cindy

Hehe yeah, there's just one problem with sociology so far!  It hasn't said anything about TS people and their relation to society :P  I'm doing my sociol problems class this semester and when we got around to sexual orientation, it was all about the gay, lesbian, and bi groups.  Totally left us out!

Hi Rachael

I understand what you mean by just no longer wanting to be a pretend person. To me in the end it was the male persona of my self that was fake. As to why we older folks waited so long is because there was little choice back just twenty years ago. There were very few therapists that dealt with   GID. There was little in the way of information to research the subject except at the library. Many had families they just couldn't leave, and sometimes it takes time for the trans person to make a break.

I know all about being homeless hon, I been there and done that. Actually it was from my being on the streets that encouraged me to become a Social Worker. I wanted to help others that I had once lived with. Crack addicts prostitutes and alcoholics, someone getting stabbed in the dark in some ally just for the bottle and the few goods the transient person had in his or her possession. Occurances like this were just the norm of things. See these are the type of set backs that may keep someone from transitioning. When you are fighting to survive you don't have a whole lot of time to think about the other.

I can't really tell you what the answer to your problem is except I would say getting employment somewhere should be first priority.

Cindy   

Posted on: October 22, 2007, 04:04:56 PM

---

Hi Shanetastic

Ya I know what you mean, the only time you hear about a trans person is on the news on TV when one of us gets the business end of a gun or knife. I really don't understand why those who have had successes are not spoken about more, except maybe that once they have graduated TS school they don't even want this part of their lives to resurface to the general public again.

I did quite fine working as a Social Worker while living seven years as Cindy but then I never broadcast the fact I was a trans person. 

Cindy 

job isnt as necesry, my studdies are :(
R :police:

Quote from: shanetastic on October 22, 2007, 03:04:35 PM
That's what friends are there for though.  If they have any problems they can openly talk to me, and vise versa.  Of course, it's hard to find a friend like that because being open with people is really difficult and you have to have a lot of trust in that person I understand.

Quotewow nice post guys.

Sorry for the sorta thread jacking Tanya, but I think this somewhat has to deal with transitioning :P

No!... KEEP GOING!- I like reading it- I'm going to post q's about your guys experiences- very interesting. Some of you have tough lifes. one of you is very emotional.

Haha I think were all done now sadly enough :P

Quote from: Tanya1 on October 22, 2007, 05:59:28 PM

Quote from: shanetastic on October 22, 2007, 03:04:35 PM
That's what friends are there for though.  If they have any problems they can openly talk to me, and vise versa.  Of course, it's hard to find a friend like that because being open with people is really difficult and you have to have a lot of trust in that person I understand.

Quotewow nice post guys.

Sorry for the sorta thread jacking Tanya, but I think this somewhat has to deal with transitioning :P

No!... KEEP GOING!- I like reading it- I'm going to post q's about your guys experiences- very interesting. Some of you have tough lifes. one of you is very emotional.

shotgun not me!
R :police:

Emotional? me? never

Hi Kat, maybe we can cry on each others shoulders.  ;D

Cynthia

Well from this old one, I think everone of us goes thru four different hells just being us, weather young or old.  If there had been the information available back in the 70's and some means for a 16-17 year old to get treatment I would have transistion then.  I grew up in Savannah Ga, which to this day is less then friendly to the GLBT folks.  But I had no resources then and I mean none.

Yes there is more information now, but I think for a younger TS it's probably harder to transistion due to parents, school and the lack of money.  That can be rough as rough as loosing a wife, family and job that happens so some of the older types. 

In some ways I'm sad I did not do this far sooner, but in other ways, I agree that it can be easier to tansistion later in life.  In any event, I'm glad I'm me now.

Beni

Hi, Beni,
You are quite correct, I learned that from the young folks on this group, the money situations and being rejected by family and school.

Actually those children have more integrity and responsibility then many number of regular student out there, not just in the tenacity of transitioning, but also to become who they believe or know they are.

About family, I believe they are the hardest to convince and accept who you are. They avoided me like the plague. Family for me turned out to be the most useless when it came for support. I had strangers come to support me when I first started out. A few strangers and a few friends that remained being supportive of me turned out to be the only support I had in the beginning and my manager at work was a sweetheart. But, family! nah! They disowned me.

Cindy

Hi, Rachael,

This is a quote from your posting:

QuoteI burst into tears when i see my body i the shower, i avoid getting serious with boys, i cry myself to sleep most nights. its a disgusting thing and because i pass so well, and because im younger and possibly 'prettyer' to these people, its not an issue? whatever... imo its worse... it certainly looks more out of place...
and my fav comment ever:Younger transitioners have it easier.... BULL FRACKING *excrament* its just as hard, but attitudes make it 10 times worse...

I don't know that anyone really has it easier transitioning than anyone else.  It's all personal and relative.

When I was 51 I began transitioning because by that time I had confronted myself and everyone else I believed to be in the way of my transition to the real me.  I had a solid career, bills paid, education done, and I had married three times and divorced three times.  I served in the military and I was too old to be pressed into service except in the gravest of national emergencies (like having Bush in office isn't its own emergency), and I was supremely self-confident. 

I am not boasting, Rachael.  I am providing personal, anecdotal evidence that I believe that younger people don't have it easier when transitioning.  At your age there are many more variables for you to consider.  I have already considered a lot of mine so they were not at-issue.

The *only* thing that youth *might have over maturity in transitioning* is that the earlier one starts HRT, the more profound the effects are.  Me, at 56, I'm happy with who I am and what I look like.  Not bad for an old duck.

In my own way I am rooting for you, cheering you on.  If you ever need to collect on a cheer or need a listening ear, please post or write to me.  No one has it perfect or so easy that it's a snap.  When I look back on what I did I describe it as having flown through the sound barrier without benefit of an aircraft.

Please do stay steady.

Wing Walker