Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey everyone! I have a question and I'm having trouble getting it answered... Do most people on HRT eventually lose some of that chest and back mass? I've heard that soft tissue often shrinks greatly, especially after SRS/orchi.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.exrx.net%2FImages%2FMechanics%2FSidePelvisMaleFemale.gif&hash=0df846ee2e8e1eb9e8f26ed41489e4f2ccf7e201)

Yes it does, but it takes a lot of time - well, that depends on what is Your starting point anyway. Back (especially muscles) seem to be the most problematic area :).

Yes.  But it does take a while depending on how much muscle mass you have.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on March 17, 2016, 04:24:26 AM
Yes.  But it does take a while depending on how much muscle mass you have.
Sapere Aude

Not much tbh. I'm actually between those 2 pictures. I've read that the less masculinized that you are, the less you can get out of HRT. I guess that makes sense. I'm curious though, what's the ballpark? Months, years, decades? Thanks!

My experience is that it's a year + before you start seeing a significant difference in muscle mass.  It could be longer depending on how much there is, diet, and exercise. 

It's worth remembering too that CIS women who exercise are not exactly scrawny.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Jean24 on March 17, 2016, 05:08:26 AM
Not much tbh. I'm actually between those 2 pictures. I've read that the less masculinized that you are, the less you can get out of HRT. I guess that makes sense. I'm curious though, what's the ballpark? Months, years, decades? Thanks!

It took 2 years, maybe a bit more for what little muscle mass I had to fully go away. It made a dramatic difference with how tops and bras fit. As the saying goes YMMV

Quote from: Deborah on March 17, 2016, 05:17:35 AM
My experience is that it's a year + before you start seeing a significant difference in muscle mass.

Yeah, I'm having a similar experience.
It's been about 13 months and the revolving door to my office is getting harder to push.

So, my $0.02 on this, from the POV of "I'll never pass" + not currently on hormones.
First, over at t-nation.com, there's an article that states, "Jogging is the best form of non-surgical gender transition..." Think of what runners look like, especially marathoners. I'd say LSD (Long, slow, Distance) is the way to go for our purposes there.
Second, lots of people have transitioned, and T-Nation has a GREAT interview with Janae Kroc - Male (now female) bodybuilder. 
https://www.t-nation.com/living/kroc-from-matt-to-janae

Last, I'd think the best option is what everyone has to do in life: Set your goals, find out how to reach them, execute; then, re-evaluate along the way.
Using myself as an example, finances suck - so HRT isn't really an option (nor even herbs or such, and an unsupportive "female" in the mix who is more "butch" than a male Marine Drill Instructor; so, everything is a fight.)
So how do I manage, being 235 and in a high-stress job and a second job at night (her)?

Working out helps. If nothing else, make the body and mind too tired to exert the energy. I make it fit by doing corrective therapies right now (Neanderthal no more program on t-Nation again.) The goals are: Lose weight; Get posture correct; avoid building big muscles that I need to lose later.
So far, the lifting program is working GREAT. I'm an IT guy - I didn't realize how bad my posture had become. It's waking up a LOT of tired, weak, inflexible muscles. So I'll walk and move more efficiently, and I'm not building mass.
Second, I'm losing weight. Ketogenic diet helps, but only because my FIRST objective is to to retain muscle mass until I'm about 20% body fat (high normal for a woman; currently at 34%).
Last, I'm learning what will work, and why. I doubt people here want to get into it, but men and women are VERY different, no matter what the Lib/Equalists want to say. I mean, if men and women were the same, why would WE exist, right? Beyond that, though, I mean: Men and women process energy differently, lift differently, move differently, think differently, etc. So I need to build what I can ASAP, because otherwise, I WILL get to HRT, and I won't have the muscle - and I'll still have the (male pattern deposited) fat. PLUS, I'll have issues building the body I want. So the more compensatory movement I deal with now, the better. For example: Instead of normal back squats, I'm doing Front Squats and Split Squats and Walking Lunges. I can rear-squat 240 + my 240# body weight as of that time. I'm now doing walking lunges with 20# dumbbells, and it (CENSORED) HURTS! But my legs look MUCH better! I look human instead of like a Bodybuilder Reject. Weight is WAY down, but making the body work better and grow a more flexible, yet strong set of muscles? Priceless, regardless of anything else.  And in the mean time, I'm adding to my butt, too, which affects how I walk (making it more feminine). The tightened muscles make a pull across the butt - makes the hips roll a bit.

As a last add-on to that, I'd suggest including the Agile 8 warmup. Most importantly the foam rolling and piriformis release on a tennis ball. It remodeled my quads into something resembling muscle; they'd pass for stone a few weeks back!

And using similar techniques, you can remodel the arms (roll a barbell down those muscles), the back (foam roll or tennis ball roll on the back), shoulders (tennis ball), quads and calves (can roll with a rolling pin, too!) Plus, while rolling around, you're building smaller muscles in the shoulders.

Once I can get in HIIT (mobilize fat) and process the means to burn it (LSD cardio) or re-store it (Fat is preferentially stored in hips and butt and breasts for women, so with estrogen...) Soften the muscles, improve the tendons (heavy lifting now and then, lots of time between; I have a theory that women use more tendon strength in their lifting than men do. fits with estrogen's effects on tendons and joints, BTW.), loosen the tight soft tissues, let time do the rest, by controlling how you work out....   Best of both worlds, maybe?

Meantime, it's keeping me semi-sane, and building towards the smaller body form I wanted all along. (I'm one of those who got fat eating good foods. Half-pound of meat, or half a chicken per meal, is WAY too much, especially with carby veggies and then add in some goodies like alcohol...? The extra is bad, the sugars are worse, the result is a mess. My target is 155, if I JUST lose fat. When I get the BF% down, I can lose muscle, too, and then I can start to be happy with the body...  MAYBE!  ;))

-Dianna

My personal experience...

On the one hand, Yes, HRT can help with losing some chest/back muscle mass...however, on the other hand, for most XY individuals who went through a typical male/testosterone puberty, we will typically have a wider upper body skeletal structure (bigger rib cage, broader set shoulder blades, etc) [and a narrower pelvis] than most XX females.

I'm a former bodybuilder.  My friends can definitely tell that I've lost alot of upper body/chest/back musculature, and compared to my former self, I'm much "smaller."  That being said, I'm still dysphoric about my actual ribcage diameter and my shoulder blades are obviously still prominent...can't do anything about the bone structure - the muscle loss, yes, but not the bones. 

My personal experience...

On the one hand, Yes, HRT can help with losing some chest/back muscle mass...however, on the other hand, for most XY individuals who went through a typical male/testosterone puberty, we will typically have a wider upper body skeletal structure (bigger rib cage, broader set shoulder blades, etc) [and a narrower pelvis] than most XX females.

I'm a former bodybuilder.  My friends can definitely tell that I've lost alot of upper body/chest/back musculature, and compared to my former self, I'm much "smaller."  That being said, I'm still dysphoric about my actual ribcage diameter and my shoulder blades are obviously still prominent...can't do anything about the bone structure - the muscle loss, yes, but not the bones.

how long have you been on HRT?

I used to worry about ribcage, chest and upper body form...until I realized it just does not matter.  I was a very fit and active during my military career (5' 10", 215#, 7.25% body fat).  I could swim forever, do pushups and situps until everyone around me grew bored...and now it barely shows at all.  We have what we have and working with it is all there is.  Big bones, dense muscle, body hair...whatever it is, we must weigh what we want and go after it with all that we are, because in truth it is!  Most people do not pay that close attention and with proper attire, A LOT can be hidden.  HRT will shift and shrink stuff.   Yoga/Pilates works well for keeping strength up without any bulking.

One thing I've discovered, stupid and simple...  :-P
FOAM ROLLER!!!!

I like lifting, and I've been in and out of the game for years - about 20 years, more in than out. I never lifted with size as my objective, but I'm the type that responds well to sets of 10, using lower weights, and by "well" I mean, grow size as well as strength.
Tried 5 X 5, got an even firmer (harder) body - more manly.

Falling apart here, basically, though - rigid, inflexible, muscles like stones, knots all over, even massage wouldn't help....

BUT, need to lose weight, so back in the game we go. Lifting is great for burning body fat...
But at 40, I'm not a "young man" any more. So the muscles argue, and I'm finding it doesn't feel right, and I try yoga, and [blah blah blah, long story.]

But I stumble on the Agile 8 as a warmup, and the first few steps are foam rolling the legs. 10 times per leg, hip to knee, to hit the IT Band, I think it is. Then the inner thigh adductors. Then roll the piriformis (butt muscle) with a tennis ball or lacrosse ball...

I'm now flexible again, been about a month. I'm doing a lighter program sure, to repair posture issues from being in IT and sitting all day.
I've also added foam rolling to my entire body. My legs look more human, less Body Builder. And the worst parts are still being repaired - hamstrings and back.

But it's coming! The soft tissue work is what's making it come about!
so shortcut is - more foam rolling on everything that sticks out too much, EXCEPT breasts and (ahem). I'm rolling my butt, legs, back, belly, forearms, shoulders, and what I can of the chest, 4 times a week for about a total of 10 minutes. For one month, no hormones, still working out - I'm making a good start.
Try it.
After you're done cursing me out the first time or three, you'll notice the muscles are more flexible, more feminine, softer - and smaller. :-)

Just be warned, it IS torture at first.

I've moved up to PVC pipe, BTW - more pressure, deeper rebuilding, better healing, and more feminization.

-Dianna

Yes, but it will take a long time.

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is it possible to lose muscle mass from beneath the ribs on hrt? so that the rib cage could shrink slightly?

Quote from: joanie on March 29, 2016, 11:51:09 PM
is it possible to lose muscle mass from beneath the ribs on hrt? so that the rib cage could shrink slightly?

Joanie,
I have limited experience there, but - it sounds like your best bet for that is corsetry. Tight lacing, over time, will alter the rib shape. No guarantees on what you can accomplish, but the younger you start, the better the results.

Same as HRT or athletic endeavors.

For me, I'm going to have to take what I can get. My rib cage has filled out a LOT in the last 10 years, even though I used to sleep in a longline bra. That wasn't constrictive enough, especially once I stopped wearing it (my body outgrew the constraint, so I tossed it. Corsets wear differently, though, so you might be able to make things work. But you need to be dedicated and wear it like 23/7/365. I wore the longline about 8 hours a day, often less. )

-Dianna

Quote from: steyraug96 on March 29, 2016, 01:14:13 PM
One thing I've discovered, stupid and simple...  :-P
FOAM ROLLER!!!!

I like lifting, and I've been in and out of the game for years - about 20 years, more in than out. I never lifted with size as my objective, but I'm the type that responds well to sets of 10, using lower weights, and by "well" I mean, grow size as well as strength.
Tried 5 X 5, got an even firmer (harder) body - more manly.

Falling apart here, basically, though - rigid, inflexible, muscles like stones, knots all over, even massage wouldn't help....

BUT, need to lose weight, so back in the game we go. Lifting is great for burning body fat...
But at 40, I'm not a "young man" any more. So the muscles argue, and I'm finding it doesn't feel right, and I try yoga, and [blah blah blah, long story.]

But I stumble on the Agile 8 as a warmup, and the first few steps are foam rolling the legs. 10 times per leg, hip to knee, to hit the IT Band, I think it is. Then the inner thigh adductors. Then roll the piriformis (butt muscle) with a tennis ball or lacrosse ball...

I'm now flexible again, been about a month. I'm doing a lighter program sure, to repair posture issues from being in IT and sitting all day.
I've also added foam rolling to my entire body. My legs look more human, less Body Builder. And the worst parts are still being repaired - hamstrings and back.

But it's coming! The soft tissue work is what's making it come about!
so shortcut is - more foam rolling on everything that sticks out too much, EXCEPT breasts and (ahem). I'm rolling my butt, legs, back, belly, forearms, shoulders, and what I can of the chest, 4 times a week for about a total of 10 minutes. For one month, no hormones, still working out - I'm making a good start.
Try it.
After you're done cursing me out the first time or three, you'll notice the muscles are more flexible, more feminine, softer - and smaller. :-)

Just be warned, it IS torture at first.

I've moved up to PVC pipe, BTW - more pressure, deeper rebuilding, better healing, and more feminization.

-Dianna

So have you already noticed any difference? I am about to follow your tip! I do wanna soften My musculature, or even reduce it, specially upper chest, arms, back and shoulders. I am a former bodybuilder and have undergone HTR for over a year, but from the forth month on, it seems that muscle bulkyness quit decreasing.

Quote from: Duudafischer on March 30, 2016, 06:08:54 PM
So have you already noticed any difference? I am about to follow your tip! I do wanna soften My musculature, or even reduce it, specially upper chest, arms, back and shoulders. I am a former bodybuilder and have undergone HTR for over a year, but from the forth month on, it seems that muscle bulkyness quit decreasing.

Hi, Duda,
Yes! I'm AMAZED, even beyond amazed, at the difference.
Between foam roller (4X / week, whole body) and yoga (1X in four weeks, so minor contribution - loosened hamstrings), it's... Well, muscles turned from stones to rubber bands, "overnight."  ;-)

The yoga, BTW, is more for weight loss. I wasn't able to complete it, whereas a few months back I did it daily in the morning. But current situation, trying a 5 X 5 program, I was getting WAY too hard to the touch. The foam roller was working, slowly, but the hamstrings had knots like gravel. Yoga the one day seemed to stop that. I'd already gone to a PVC pipe instead of regular foam roller, and the next time at the gym, the next day? No more gravel.  :o

Wouldn't suggest PVC on the spine or back, though.  ;)

This is week 5, basically. Calves are flexible again, I can BREATHE - never even noticed how TIGHT that had gotten (supine leg raises, I guess, plus deadlift and squats; right under the ribs, you know? Tight before, now I have ribs again.) 
My legs are flexible, though the hamstrings need constant attention, since I sit all day, every day.  :( 

Forearms are next on the "hit 'em hard" list. Foam roller isn't enough, but I can't put the pressure on them like the legs. :P

-Dianna

Quote from: steyraug96 on March 31, 2016, 07:04:33 AM
Hi, Duda,
Yes! I'm AMAZED, even beyond amazed, at the difference.
Between foam roller (4X / week, whole body) and yoga (1X in four weeks, so minor contribution - loosened hamstrings), it's... Well, muscles turned from stones to rubber bands, "overnight."  ;-)

The yoga, BTW, is more for weight loss. I wasn't able to complete it, whereas a few months back I did it daily in the morning. But current situation, trying a 5 X 5 program, I was getting WAY too hard to the touch. The foam roller was working, slowly, but the hamstrings had knots like gravel. Yoga the one day seemed to stop that. I'd already gone to a PVC pipe instead of regular foam roller, and the next time at the gym, the next day? No more gravel.  :o

Wouldn't suggest PVC on the spine or back, though.  ;)

This is week 5, basically. Calves are flexible again, I can BREATHE - never even noticed how TIGHT that had gotten (supine leg raises, I guess, plus deadlift and squats; right under the ribs, you know? Tight before, now I have ribs again.) 
My legs are flexible, though the hamstrings need constant attention, since I sit all day, every day.  :( 

Forearms are next on the "hit 'em hard" list. Foam roller isn't enough, but I can't put the pressure on them like the legs. :P

-Dianna

Dear Dianna, so happy with your discovery!! I searched hard for a method besides dieting to loose my muscle stuff!! I am going to buy a foam roller right now!! hahahahh... thank you so much!

my arms are big, but the frame and shape os muscle makes if seem quite bigger! think it is gonna help!!

oxoxo