Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I hope no one minds that I created a standalone thread.  It's just easier to keep it all together in my own thread and I can subscribe to it and monitor questions easier. :)

First, a bit of background can be found here - https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,200722.0.html. And I'd like to thank Jenny for her original experience that was posted in 2013.  I'd been monitoring that for almost three years before puling the trigger.

I had surgery with Dr. Kim at the end of March this year, and there were no complications.  He did say I had shorter than average vocal cords and that I also had a tremor, which would require botox.  The barrage of tests that were carried out had my fundamental frequency for my 'untrained' voice as quite high and I believe it is in reality 20-30Hz lower, but it's hard to know now. The botox injection was performed just after the post-operative exam seven days later, which showed that it was all healing nicely. In total I think it came out to around £7,000.  If you're worried about having such a procedure done outside of your home country - don't be.  It was a very modern facility with caring and knowledgeable staff (well, the X-ray across the road seemed archaic, but the radiologist was nice).  You'll also be given a number of medications to take for seven days post surgery to help with inflammation, potential infections keeping your stomach sane, and to help prevent you from coughing (which is bad).

Korea was a lovely country and everyone was very nice and helpful throughout my stay.  Personally, I stayed at Phil House (http://philhouse.co.kr/index.php?lengs=en, although I reserved through Agoda) which was cheap, clean, and also had a stove, fridge, and washing machine.  However, I didn't use most of those things, aside from the fridge, so the main benefit was clean and cheap. :)  If you are someone who wants a more 'full service' experience, this isn't the place for you, though. The trip from Phil House to the the clinic was probably 35-40 minutes and only involved one change on the subway. I found Korea to be quite cheap in most respects (seriously, take the subway, which works out to like £1 each way!), and the most I ever spent came out to around £15 for a huge box of Korean fried chicken that gave me two meals.

The following links were very helpful:
Great Site to see how to get from A to B using the subway - http://seoul.exploremetro.com/en/#
Has lots of info about visiting Korea - http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/index.kto
Got a 4G wifi device to carry around - https://roaming.kt.com/rental/eng/product/wibro.asp

I've been able to speak since yesterday, but my voice is very weak and it resonates in my head (to me), like I have a terrible cold. It's coming out in a frequency similar to my trained voice, at least, with no effort.  Later on I'll post some photos of lots of 'things' they gave me in my post-surgery pack; just need to take a few more photos.  Will also do a very short recording with my super weak voice!

Denjin,

Thank you for sharing your voice surgery experience and it is surely a great idea to create your own thread.

I heard your pre-op voice and I must say you sounded heavenly feminine. Wish I had the same and you could only sound better than that post-op. The worst would be the same without making any effort.

Way to go girl!  :icon_chick:

Thanks for the kind comment, Brenda. :)  I sort of liked my trained voice when I was able to keep the pitch higher, it's just that as I got older it was harder to do that. :(

OK, as promised here are some results from the various tests Yeson performed.  In case people are curious what tests they carry out. (If you only care about hearing the four week voice, that's at the bottom!)

Vocal Cords Top left is before surgery.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEknyvCh.jpg&hash=0daca3c7c308c8b89af2c42cbc4749bb21b80f0a)

CAPE-V
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fy0TfPPX.jpg&hash=f7e36cf044b67eaed48e27729a076e2c11f0b50a)

Stroboscopic assessment
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FTMmBrl5.jpg&hash=38dde2010c1ea2ad7d34de26c18124d3ad281706)

'Normal' voice Neither this or the next one are accurate I think, I had problems lowering my voice and also was starting with a head cold.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5o7WOek.jpg&hash=af802a5c09931e51b1c098bf2e94fcf7337a9e30)

'Higher' voice
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEmpGmsC.jpg&hash=59611a740bd34e7796b67e62e29283d3fb5c5b96)

And, here is a few sentences from 'Comma gets a Cure', which seems to be a bit more preferred as opposed to the overused rainbow passage.  My voice is very weak and I'm not really trying or using any resonance control that I'm aware of.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Uw9ojQZcK2

Quote from: Denjin on April 28, 2016, 04:57:18 AM
Thanks for the kind comment, Brenda. :)  I sort of liked my trained voice when I was able to keep the pitch higher, it's just that as I got older it was harder to do that. :(

You're quite welcome sweety and I am just being honest  :)

Looks like Dr Kim shortened 1/3 of your vocal folds.

Prof. Remacle shortened mine a bit more because I used to be a smoker.

Quote from: DenjinAnd, here is a few sentences from 'Comma gets a Cure', which seems to be a bit more preferred as opposed to the overused rainbow passage.  My voice is very weak and I'm not really trying or using any resonance control that I'm aware of.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Uw9ojQZcK2

WOW! You sound really good and I am very impressed!

Congrats!  :)

Yeah it looks like 1/3 to me, too.  Mine were shorter than average to begin with, plus I'd never smoked. :)  Given that my voice now is a little bit higher than my pre-op trained voice without using any effort, I think 1/3 was enough in my case. :D

I can't wait until I can vary my pitch a bit more - I'm basically forced to be almost monotone now.  I also get a foreign body sensation sometimes after I speak, so I'm trying to keep talking to a minimum.  Luckily I'm not back at work until next week!

Quote from: Denjin on April 28, 2016, 02:14:39 PM
Yeah it looks like 1/3 to me, too.  Mine were shorter than average to begin with, plus I'd never smoked. :)

I was really a bad girl  >:-) I loved drinking, partying and playing with boys :embarrassed: until I found my future husband 5 years ago. He rocked my world  :angel:

Quote from: DenjinI can't wait until I can vary my pitch a bit more - I'm basically forced to be almost monotone now.  I also get a foreign body sensation sometimes after I speak, so I'm trying to keep talking to a minimum.

It sounds exactly the same for me.

Quote from: DenjinLuckily I'm not back at work until next week!

Lucky girl! I had to go back to work 2 weeks after my surgery or else I would be jobless ;D

Quote from: bmiranda on April 29, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
I was really a bad girl  >:-) I loved drinking, partying and playing with boys :embarrassed: until I found my future husband 5 years ago. He rocked my world  :angel:

It sounds exactly the same for me.

Lucky girl! I had to go back to work 2 weeks after my surgery or else I would be jobless ;D

Oh you are lucky - I have not partied enough I guess because I have not met any future husband after over a decade...

For me what was really weird at first was, when I was able to vary pitch again, about 1-2 weeks after the 4 week mark, my voice was overreacting - what I used to have to do to get some pitch variation now brought me all the way into head voice and it was sounding exaggerated - lol - I actually had to learn how to use the pitches properly. A voice surgeon here now was surprised at my upper pitch range and called it "extraordinary" :)

Luckily my work is awesome, Brenda.  I could take off more I think, but honestly I'd like to go back next week and just keep speaking to a minimum!

I sent a rainbow passage sample to Yeson and they said I'm coming along fine.  They also said the breathiness and quiet voice are due to the botox.  I can't wait for it to reduce, since it's so weird.

When can people typically laugh?  It doesn't really work yet for me, I also notice if I try to use any prosody, my voice easily goes way way up into what used to be falsetto.  Quite strange!  Still, my average pitch at the moment is from 0-15 Hz higher than my old trained voice.

Quote from: Denjin on April 29, 2016, 06:56:41 AM
I also notice if I try to use any prosody, my voice easily goes way way up into what used to be falsetto.  Quite strange! 

Thats what I meant - your voice is not monotonous restricted, but actually it is very sensitive. Like if you set the mouse pointer on your computer to the most sensitive option, you are not able to hit a button anymore because the pointer is already at the other end of the screen - lol...

Quote from: anjaq on April 29, 2016, 08:02:08 AM
Thats what I meant - your voice is not monotonous restricted, but actually it is very sensitive. Like if you set the mouse pointer on your computer to the most sensitive option, you are not able to hit a button anymore because the pointer is already at the other end of the screen - lol...

Ahh, yes! :)  Will take some time to get used to, although it's still hard to use it much at all with the botox. meh. Aside from giving you a weak voice and making you breathy, it is SO easy to swallow something and have it go down the wrong way, resulting in a coughing fit (which I'm pretty good at avoiding now).

How long did it take others who had botox to be able to speak even remotely usable?  It's five weeks for me and I can only really speak for a little bit in the morning and my voice is useless the rest of the day.  Looking through the old Yeson thread it doesn't seem like others used to have this problem so I wonder if he's increased the botox dosage?

At 6 weeks, I had a conversation in a restaurant with someone from the chat here for about 2 hours and while I had to rest my voice a lot after that, like the whole next day, it was possible to speak with her even though it was evening. But I think it makes sense to better not do that and just speak very little until week 8 to allow it to heal more

I guess it's just that it will get a bit better every day, then.  I have noticed if I speak very much I end up having some foreign body sensation in my throat for a bit afterwards.  Guess the means it was definitely too much speaking.  I also sound very weird and fake at the end of the day.  My mum spoke with me and after like one sentence she said 'we'll talk again in a week'.

Lol, yes, it is difficult at first, which is why I tell people not to count on having a voice back at 4 weeks - it takes longer. And Yesons official recommendation is, if you feel strain, foreign body sensation or hoarseness - rest the voice until it is gone. This menas a LOT of resting the voice even after the 4 weeks. It really gets better at week 8 though and especially when the voice exercises can be done to strengthen the new voice. Hang in there.

Thanks, Anja. 

Yeah every time I get a sore throat or foreign body sensation I then stop talking until it goes away.  Also, my voice gets so strange and hoarse after literally a few sentences over many hours.

For example, I've attached a short bit from comma gets a cure and the rainbow passage below (37 days post).  You'll also notice how I don't use much prosody yet since when I do it is hard to control.  Resonance also at the moment, but I know it will improve.

Comma gets a cure (37 days post)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jUyd2vnAAW

Rainbow passage (37 days post)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Oy3cnGnTj3

BTW, the pitch is lower earlier in the day before my voice goes weird (205 average instead of 220).

For those who are curious, here are two pre-surgery readings.

Rainbow passage (My lazy voice pre surgery)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1RYLZFrINWx

Free speaking as low as possible (obviously pre surgery)
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1krkMh0CZeX

To me, rainbow passage sounded better pre-op vs. post-op.

Quote from: KayXo on May 08, 2016, 03:15:44 PM
To me, rainbow passage sounded better pre-op vs. post-op.

Oh yeah it totally does, even though the pitch is lower pre-op.  I passed 100% in the voice department, but I was obviously trying harder on the phone, to the point where my co-workers would giggle at my 'phone voice'.

I don't have the strength to do any real prosody or resonance at the moment. I'm assuming this is something that will improve over time. Hell, I don't even understand how to use my voice, really.  Today I was trying and it seems easier if I go higher, so it will take a while to sort it all out.

Did anyone have to retrain themselves to use proper resonance?  I swear my resonance is off now.  Is it just the botox making EVERYTHING more difficult? 

Yes absolutely. Post OP the voice is not the same as before and it behaves differently, too. It does not work the same way - also in respect to "resonance control"... This is why it takes so long to recover from this surgery - in some ways you have to retrain yourself to use the new voice properly, including resonance and power and volume...

Thanks, Anja.  I honestly just don't know how my voice works at all now, it's so strange. it also seems to up in pitch as my voice gets horse during the day, and I thought the opposite should happen.  Dr. Kim said to 'just speak' but if I do that I think it goes lower than is comfortable and I need to speak higher to make it easier...  I trained myself so long ago it was all just ingrained for me so no idea what I was doing, really.

Yes, I know. I had the same problems and it took many months to get the hang of it. Really - unlearning what I learned before about my voice, dealing with that subconscious drop in pitch that brings me into an uncomfortable range but my brain thinks it should be comfortable - I think the exercises, the Botox and the Clonazepam are what Dr Kim puts his hopes on for us to unlearn and relearn how to use our voices.

Thanks, Anja. :)  Oh well, at least I was warned this surgery took a long time to recover from.  Although, some people do seem to have a much easier time.  Those with deeper and/or not very trained voices pre-op seem to have an easier time since perhaps their brain is forced into a reset.

Will do my six week recording tomorrow.

My voice is getting a bit stronger this week, finally.  Still have a hard time with resonance and other things, but it's getting better. I'm not really trying, but I at least have the strength for some amount of prosody now. Also, my voice gives out quite easily, but then again I'm not supposed to do 'normal conversations' for another two weeks. These recordings are lower pitch than a week ago since they are before my voice starts getting really weird and higher...

Week 6-
Comma gets a cure
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1RKu1QPqKaL

Rainbow passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1W0VCjldTdS

Sounds great for only 6 weeks! At 6 weeks, my voice at the time sounded quite off.

Quote from: Denjin on May 11, 2016, 08:05:42 AM
My voice is getting a bit stronger this week, finally.  Still have a hard time with resonance and other things, but it's getting better. I'm not really trying, but I at least have the strength for some amount of prosody now. Also, my voice gives out quite easily, but then again I'm not supposed to do 'normal conversations' for another two weeks. These recordings are lower pitch than a week ago since they are before my voice starts getting really weird and higher...

Week 6-
Comma gets a cure
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1RKu1QPqKaL

Rainbow passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1W0VCjldTdS

Quote from: Denjin on May 10, 2016, 04:47:39 PM
Thanks, Anja. :)  Oh well, at least I was warned this surgery took a long time to recover from.  Although, some people do seem to have a much easier time.  Those with deeper and/or not very trained voices pre-op seem to have an easier time since perhaps their brain is forced into a reset.

Yes, I believe that it can be beneficial to not have trained your voice too much and for too long before the surgery - although some voice training seems beneficial.

And I also think that if the pitch change is very significant, it is easier to not try and fall back into old habits and pitches. Like me - I had originally about 110-120 Hz voice, trained the voice for almost 2 decades and had initially probably about 170 Hz, which degraded over time to become more like 150 Hz when I elevated pitch a bit and to about 135 Hz when I relaxed. Now Post OP, my new pitch seems to be about 180-190 Hz, which makes sense to me (110+75=185), but looks not that great when taking the pre OP pitch as a start (135 Hz+ 75 = 210). In any case, my voice is easily capable of still doing the 150 Hz and even the 135 Hz , but its in a way lower than the optimum - still my brain tries to get there because its used that this is a pitch that is comfortable and not straining my voice. Now if I did not have the training and would have started at 110 Hz, going to 185 Hz directly, there is barely a chance I can get to 110 Hz now - its really the lower end of my range - so I would not be able to subconsciously match my old pitch anymore, which would probably make my brain realize faster that something is very different now ;)

Quote from: jollyjoy on May 11, 2016, 11:31:52 AM
Sounds great for only 6 weeks! At 6 weeks, my voice at the time sounded quite off.

Thanks, Joy! It only sounds like that for like 30 minutes per day now I think.  Did you have the triple?  That definitely seems to make things take longer... But, the healing process does seem to take a long time!

Quote from: anjaq
Yes, I believe that it can be beneficial to not have trained your voice too much and for too long before the surgery - although some voice training seems beneficial.

And I also think that if the pitch change is very significant, it is easier to not try and fall back into old habits and pitches. Like me - I had originally about 110-120 Hz voice, trained the voice for almost 2 decades and had initially probably about 170 Hz, which degraded over time to become more like 150 Hz when I elevated pitch a bit and to about 135 Hz when I relaxed. Now Post OP, my new pitch seems to be about 180-190 Hz, which makes sense to me (110+75=185), but looks not that great when taking the pre OP pitch as a start (135 Hz+ 75 = 210). In any case, my voice is easily capable of still doing the 150 Hz and even the 135 Hz , but its in a way lower than the optimum - still my brain tries to get there because its used that this is a pitch that is comfortable and not straining my voice. Now if I did not have the training and would have started at 110 Hz, going to 185 Hz directly, there is barely a chance I can get to 110 Hz now - its really the lower end of my range - so I would not be able to subconsciously match my old pitch anymore, which would probably make my brain realize faster that something is very different now ;)

That sounds similar to me - my brain wants to go lower.  My current pitch (which, based on what I have seen in other threads) probably won't go up much more if at all?  I really don't know what my pre-op pitch was, but I really don't think it was as low as 135Hz, since I  did a fake 'as low as possible' recording (a few posts up) before surgery and it was only a little bit lower than that. But, if my fundamental was like 150 (seems about right for me), then I should be higher than I am now. I've not really done a similar recording post op yet as I think lower pitches are harder on the vocal cords?  Something for 8 weeks...

Well, my pitch range did not change that massively with surgery. It was 85-880 Hz before an is 100-760 Hz now. So I cannot go all the way low anymore, but still pretty low and at the upper end I am having issues that I can probably train out and on better days I already reach 880 again, I believe.
So the pitch potential is the same, but the comfortable pitch the voice wants to be at is different and its just really hard to find that spot and to convince your brain that this is right now. So the combination to look for is a higher pitch that feels omfortable and in which you can speak naturally in - even if your brain still partly thinks its too high to be healthy. Its a tough job that will take its time and your dedication.

Thanks, Anja. 

What I don't understand is that Dr. Kim said to 'just speak' and not try and change the voice at all. However, if that results in a voice that somehow feels slightly uncomfortable or is more difficult than one that is a tiny bit higher, than surely the latter is better?  He thought that years of clenching the muscles in that area is what caused my tremor in the first place.  Maybe I should email Jessie...

Quote from: Denjin on May 14, 2016, 02:59:35 AM
What I don't understand is that Dr. Kim said to 'just speak' and not try and change the voice at all. However, if that results in a voice that somehow feels slightly uncomfortable or is more difficult than one that is a tiny bit higher, than surely the latter is better?

Yes - he says different things. One one hand he says to just speak and be relaxed about it - but then he also said at times to use a higher pitch... I think what he tries to say is that one should use a pitch that is higher than before the surgery, but to use it comfortably and not by pressing the voice or pushing it into that pitch. Thats a bit tricky - since at least my brain often tried to increase pitch with the means it used before the surgery - which did of course not work and only hurt my voice. So its hard to find a way to increase pitch in a very relaxed way - I think the voice exercises help - they teach you to relax and still vary pitch - and then you need to find a pitch that you can "just speak" in , without pushing it, but still that pitch is higher than pre OP.

What I did was to try one exercises from my SLT. I just lay down or sit upright and breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth using abdominal breathing. Then I try to relax my throat and everything else. Then I make an "fff" sound and very silently add a sound to it like "ffffoooo" or "fffffuuuu". Very softly and without controlling the pitch. Often I managed to get a pitch then that was relaxed but higher than it would have been before the surgery. It was about 190 Hz. And this seems to be about where my preferred pitch now is.

Thanks for the explanations, Anja. I also emailed Jessie to ask her if I'm doing something wrong.  If I am indeed supposed to try to raise pitch but just use little effort I guess I'm just not used to my shorter vocal cords yet. :) I did a test again today and my pitch first thing in the morning was like 190Hz or so, but when I got back from work it was closer to 225 and I think that's with the same effort, although it has a sort of laryngitis quality to it in the evening. So, I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

Using your last example, I have a similar occurrence between morning and evening.

Well - 190 Hz as well as 225 Hz are both absolutely in the female range, so clearly they are changed, right? I mean if you have been in the male range before but now its 190-225 Hz, thats pretty ok, it seems to me? I went from 110-135 to now about 170-200 Hz and that seems ok too, although I believe that occasionally I drop below 170 Hz and thats not a good range to stay in. Also 170 Hz is actually too low, but it happens to me often. But 190-200 is perfect

Well, it's hardly changed from before.  190 was my good trained voice...but my lazy one was closer to 160. A few posts up (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,208499.msg1851536.html#msg1851536) I have a sort of fake deep recording that shows the lowest I could possibly go before it all.  This means I'm basically up about 30Hz instead of 75. Hell, I did a rainbow passage recording now and it was only 210, so it's closer to a 20Hz improvement. But, I still don't use as much prosody as I used to before all of this since the voice still feels weak and hard to control, so who knows.

Quote from: Denjin on May 16, 2016, 12:39:58 PM
but my lazy one was closer to 160. .....
I did a rainbow passage recording now and it was only 210, so it's closer to a 20Hz improvement. But, I still don't use as much prosody as I used to before all of this since the voice still feels weak and hard to control, so who knows.

Well first of all, you should take the "lazy one" as your starting point (actually you should take your pre transition voice as a reference, but you probably have no record of that either). From 160 to 210 is a 50 Hz gain and that is pretty ok - considering 160 Hz is gender neutral and 210 Hz is female. The 75 Hz are an average. I think some get the 75 Hz, some get 50 and some get 100. If you had a good trained voice before, often what you get after the surgery is to have that same voice but effortless and to me it seems that this is the case with you, except you gained a bit in pitch compared to your trained voice as well. In any case - 210 Hz is perfectly female - so I think that is the goal of the surgery, right?

Here are my 8 week recordings.  I do have a lisp naturally and have to focus to enunciate properly, but I really didn't for these so it's more natural.  Still have some issues with pitch control and my old resonance technique seems to work differently now, and my voice also has a 'laryngitis' quality to it.  However, I'm not trying to raise pitch or anything, it's just speaking.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s09a2MTz0WIu

Comma Gets a Cure
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1z5KuLPyKKq

Quote from: Denjin on May 24, 2016, 03:04:55 PM
Here are my 8 week recordings.  I do have a lisp naturally and have to focus to enunciate properly, but I really didn't for these so it's more natural.  Still have some issues with pitch control and my old resonance technique seems to work differently now, and my voice also has a 'laryngitis' quality to it.  However, I'm not trying to raise pitch or anything, it's just speaking.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s09a2MTz0WIu

Comma Gets a Cure
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1z5KuLPyKKq

WOW! You really sound good and better than before!

Congrats!!!  ;) :)

Thanks, Brenda.  I can't wait for the healing to finish, though.  I always sound like a have a head cold or something, but it's getting better. :)

Quote from: Denjin on May 26, 2016, 03:18:32 PM
Thanks, Brenda.  I can't wait for the healing to finish, though.  I always sound like a have a head cold or something, but it's getting better. :)

You're welcome sweety! Ditto! I just started my speech therapy as recommended by Professor Remacle and I hope it will help me to gain more volume which I desperately need when I speak in public.

Take care,
Brenda :-*

Quote from: bmiranda on June 01, 2016, 10:14:43 AM
You're welcome sweety! Ditto! I just started my speech therapy as recommended by Professor Remacle and I hope it will help me to gain more volume which I desperately need when I speak in public.

Take care,
Brenda :-*

I start my sessions next week - can't wait.  I have problem speaking loudly (well, speaking loudly and having it sound ok), but I can do some of my Yeson voice exercises very loudly and clearly.  Not sure why voice doesn't work as well but singing and making tones seems ok. Hopefully the speech therapist will know!

Quote from: Denjin on June 01, 2016, 11:48:25 AM
I start my sessions next week - can't wait.  I have problem speaking loudly (well, speaking loudly and having it sound ok), but I can do some of my Yeson voice exercises very loudly and clearly.  Not sure why voice doesn't work as well but singing and making tones seems ok. Hopefully the speech therapist will know!

Well, I am okay when I speak privately or over the phone and happy with it. But once outside, I feel like I have the need to put a lot of effort to make me hear and when I try to speak higher or with more volume, I just don't like the way I sound :( I am hoping too that my speech therapist will know how to solve this :)

That sounds very familiar, Brenda.  I also seem fine on the phone... I think my brain is trying to keep some old speech pattern when I go loudly in public, which is causing problems.  At least we'll both get some help from speech therapists soon.

Speaking loudly should be done without force - especially not tightening up the throat muscles. Your power of the voice should come from the lung - that is why abdominal breathing - which is part of the Yeson exercises - is so important. Also the Yeson exercises should be done with a relaxed throat, even opening the jaw should only involve the jaw muscles and not cause tension in the troat anywhere... I think if one manages to master that, the voice can be louder. I also still fall into old speech patterns that involve tightening up the throat muscles which causes the voice to be strained, reach less volume and so on... Its a long process to really learn how to use this new voice properly...

Good information, Anja - thanks.  That explains why I can do the ing-ah one very loudly I think?  The sounds just sort of come out normally and you don't have to do anything with your throat, etc.

Went out to lunch today and my louder voice there was just odd... somehow lower too so it's my brain getting in the way.  I swear before surgery my loud voice was higher pitch, but now I'm doing the inverse somehow.

Sounds great, it will get even better in a few months!

Quote from: Denjin on May 24, 2016, 03:04:55 PM
Here are my 8 week recordings.  I do have a lisp naturally and have to focus to enunciate properly, but I really didn't for these so it's more natural.  Still have some issues with pitch control and my old resonance technique seems to work differently now, and my voice also has a 'laryngitis' quality to it.  However, I'm not trying to raise pitch or anything, it's just speaking.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s09a2MTz0WIu

Comma Gets a Cure
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1z5KuLPyKKq

Quote from: jollyjoy on June 06, 2016, 11:14:04 AM
Sounds great, it will get even better in a few months!

Thanks, Joy - I hope so.  It's gone up about only about 40Hz from where it was before, but at least it wasn't that low before. :)

Yes - 40 Hz seems to not be uncommon. I think I gained about the same. 135 Hz gone up to 170-190 Hz usually. But thats ok, its in the low female range and people seem to like it because it sounds natural. One woman called me the other day and asked me right away if I had voice surgery since my voice to her was "perfect" - lol - I disagree a bit on that, but glad that others find it good ;).

That's good!  Natural is what you want, regardless of the pitch.  I know we (as in transwomen) seem to hyperfocus on pitch...

I have pitch instability, still, too.  Today I was only up about 20Hz from before. I'm mostly worried about my resonance as I thought it was perfect before but I am having problems now.  I start seeing a speech pathologist from Thursday and hope she can help.

Quote from: Denjin on June 07, 2016, 02:19:50 PM
That's good!  Natural is what you want, regardless of the pitch.  I know we (as in transwomen) seem to hyperfocus on pitch...

I have pitch instability, still, too.  Today I was only up about 20Hz from before. I'm mostly worried about my resonance as I thought it was perfect before but I am having problems now.  I start seeing a speech pathologist from Thursday and hope she can help.

I have noticed from my personal experience is that after a month or the very first time you can actually say a word post surgery because people heal up differently, that pitch is what you are likely to end up and will just get better in time ie;  gain of volume and clearliness.

You had the resonance before (which I didn't have before surgery but actually learning) and I don't think you're gonna lose it sweety. You sounded really good to me before and I am so sure you will only end up better :)

Speech therapy will certainly help you get there  :)

Brenda :icon_hug: :-*

Oops! I wanna say something about that pitch issue.

It really depends on which continent you are living. In some continents, low female pitch is regarded as normal and sexy.

In Asia where I'm coming from, high female pitch is regarded as attractive and sexy. I live in Europe and my old low pitch was passing  all the time and 50% on the phone but when I go to Asia, no matter how sexy and beautiful I look, I get clocked straight away with that low pitch...just sharing my personal opinion  ;)

Yes definitely there are cultural pitch differences.
For example: https://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~trouvain/Andreeva_et_al_2014.pdf and references therein about Japanese versus English.

So I guess while Asian trans women have it easier because of the body and facial features often being less masculine, the voice issue is a bigger problem there. Maybe that is why one of the best voice surgeons is in Asia ;)

So I just checked and apparently I am now really more in the 190 Hz range which means I have gotten a 55 Hz pitch change after all - which is cool. However the pitch change between week 5 or 6 and now is rather minimal. I had 170-180 Hz at week 6 and have 180-190 now, on a bad day or when I lack prosody and pitch variations it is even lower again. So I am not sure if there is that much real pitch change in that timeframe, I think however one learns a lot about how to use the new voice properly and thus also find a new sweet spot, so it is more a thing of getting used to the voice and breaking old habits. When I fall into old habits , my voice gets strained and I reach only 170 Hz, I need to use a different way of speaking which does not strain the voice and then it comes out at 190 Hz.

This goes along with another thing I want to say about resonance and prosody - thise have to be partially re-learned or modified. If I use the old resonance technique I used before, it puts tension on the vocal folds and actually lowers pitch and volume. I actually need to speak with much less resonance control and sort of control myself to not use that much control in order to speak free and without strain.

In any case - its a bit of a struggle and one has to listen to the feedback the voice and body and ear gives . If it hurts or you get a sore or tight throat, you are doing it wrong. When you get a clean note that is also loud, you are doing something right (for example in the exercises)

Quote from: bmiranda on June 07, 2016, 03:40:51 PM
Oops! I wanna say something about that pitch issue.

It really depends on which continent you are living. In some continents, low female pitch is regarded as normal and sexy.

In Asia where I'm coming from, high female pitch is regarded as attractive and sexy. I live in Europe and my old low pitch was passing  all the time and 50% on the phone but when I go to Asia, no matter how sexy and beautiful I look, I get clocked straight away with that low pitch...just sharing my personal opinion  ;)

Totally! I'm tall and of northern European descent (ignore my username - lol) , so my new pitch is totally within the norm from what I've seen. :)  I do like how it sounds at like 225 Hz, but will have to live with less.

Quote from: anja
This goes along with another thing I want to say about resonance and prosody - thise have to be partially re-learned or modified. If I use the old resonance technique I used before, it puts tension on the vocal folds and actually lowers pitch and volume. I actually need to speak with much less resonance control and sort of control myself to not use that much control in order to speak free and without strain.

That sounds the same as me!  My old resonance technique creates too much tension, and worked great with my old cords but not these.

Yes i would like to have 220 Hz as well, but its not really comfortable for me. I even can do 250 Hz but its not really relaxed, its more like doing what I did before surgery to raise pitch ina ddition to the surgery...

By the way, there is a scientific paper coming up from Dr Kim titled "A New Conceptual Approach for Voice Feminization: 12 Years of Experience" which will show the results of "A retrospective study was performed on 362 patients who underwent VFSRAC."

It was accepted for publication and soon will be available in a scientific journal - I will post a link once it is out.

Saw a speech pathologist today and she said my resonance is wrong because I'm speaking wrong.  I still don't understand, though.  I need to speak from the front of my mouth and it sounds like it's in the back with too much nasal resonance at the moment.

Interested in that study!

Quote from: Denjin on June 09, 2016, 01:35:07 PM
Saw a speech pathologist today and she said my resonance is wrong because I'm speaking wrong. I still don't understand, though.

I don't understand either because you obviously had it before ???

Quote from: DenjinI need to speak from the front of my mouth and it sounds like it's in the back with too much nasal resonance at the moment.

This is a bit confusing to me...can you elaborate this please?

Yeah, I don't understand why it's different now, the resonance.  I think it's because my old technique also increased pitch, but that's not a good idea to do so now and it just makes a weird nasal resonance.

I could post a sample, but I might as well just wait until the three month mark now, since that is like 1.5 weeks away?

I really didn't understand, the speaking comment either, Brenda.  She said it sounds like my voice is coming from the back of my mouth?!? and I can feel a strong vibration near my nose.  But, my resonance and vocal quality will be better if the voice sounds like it's coming out of the front.  So hard to explain.  Kind of like when you say 'Two', sort of throwing your voice.  I do know if I try and speak this way I can get louder, too?  Meh, it's all confusing.  Even at Dr. Kim they tried to explain this to me.


Interesting, though, no matter how low I push my voice I just can't get any chest resonance now.  Not that I ever USED that in a long long time, but it's not even possible at all now.

Chest resonance is hard or impossible ideed after the vFS, which is cool.

I think you should get a face to face therapy for a coule of sessions with the SLT. They have exercises to train projection (which is probably what is meant by speaking from the front of the mouth).

the resonance works differently post VFS - I imagine it like when you take a wine glass and put in some water and then slide your finger around it to make a sound. Now if you use a differnt size glass or different amount of water, the rsonance changes and you need to move your finger differently to hit the right resonance. The new voice has different resonance and a different "sweet spot", and this has to be re-learned.

Thanks, Anja.  I have limited options for speech therapy and the like where I live, unfortunately.  However, the speech therapist is the one who was showing me how to speak differently.  This session was covering a lot of items, though, so not as focused.  I'll go again once botox is totally worn off I think.  It does sound like it was projection, yes, which was from the front of the mouth (but not into the nasal area in terms of resonance).

It seems this is all easier for people who had much lower voices before the surgery.

Quote from: Denjin on June 09, 2016, 03:47:43 PM
Yeah, I don't understand why it's different now, the resonance.  I think it's because my old technique also increased pitch, but that's not a good idea to do so now and it just makes a weird nasal resonance.

I could post a sample, but I might as well just wait until the three month mark now, since that is like 1.5 weeks away?

I really didn't understand, the speaking comment either, Brenda.  She said it sounds like my voice is coming from the back of my mouth?!? and I can feel a strong vibration near my nose.  But, my resonance and vocal quality will be better if the voice sounds like it's coming out of the front.  So hard to explain.  Kind of like when you say 'Two', sort of throwing your voice.  I do know if I try and speak this way I can get louder, too?  Meh, it's all confusing.  Even at Dr. Kim they tried to explain this to me.

I now understand thank you but I heard that resonace is found at he back of the mouth and it obviously makes vibration inside the nose. And she is saying the other way around  ??? me really lost ??? I tried that too making the sound out from the mouth but my voice was hurrendously low and hoarsed :embarrassed:

Quote from: Denjin
Interesting, though, no matter how low I push my voice I just can't get any chest resonance now.  Not that I ever USED that in a long long time, but it's not even possible at all now.

I used that chest resonance a lot before and I am just so glad that it has been completely eliminated which is a good thing with this voice surgery :)

Just a question though. How about coughing and laughing? Did you see any difference post surgery? Sorry for being curious  ;D

It's hard to tell about coughing and laughing.  For me, both are quite feminine.  However, I had that part nailed before surgery...I think I don't have to try to do it now, though.

Quote from: Denjin on June 09, 2016, 04:36:38 PM
It seems this is all easier for people who had much lower voices before the surgery.

I am not sure - I think it has more to do with unaltered voices. If the voice was already altered for a long time it is harder to break the habits. Also dysphonia and muscle tension  seem to occur then, which may persist post-OP. Dr Kim writes a bit abouot that too in the paper. The DOI probably is going to be: DOI: 10.1002/lary.26127

Thanks for the DOI, Anja.  Do agree about habits.

Here's my voice in the morning - not used it much today but it does feel dry and was abused yesterday!
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1F9U5cx3ngJ

I think your voice sounds good - maybe a little bit restricted, which can come from the voice abuse - and you seem to have held the microphone a bit close to the mouth, but I so not think this is a bad voice , really. Not sure what you are worried about so much :)

Oh, I just learned how to speak the 'correct' way yesterday so that recording was my first real attempt at using it.  Before that, it was some weird, nasally-resonant one from the back of my throat.  Glad it seems to be sounding ok.  I can  speak a lot louder now and people never ask me to repeat myself, finally.  Even had a phone call today and never was asked to repeat myself at all.

Our brains get in the way, since when I speak like this I don't like how it sounds.  But, if I record and listen it seems better. Weird, eh.

I have real interviews in a week so am working to make my voice stronger.  Are there any good exercises?  I think I'm doing ok at making it louder provided I do the forward placement, but it takes some conscious effort to do so.

Seems like my botox might be wearing off already, too, as it's easier to speak lately.

There are of course plenty of excuses. A cold, overuse of the voice, ...
I think you are doing the right thing to make the effort to speak forwardly and this is what works. I have two ways of using my voice as well - one is lower, more breathy and less powerful, the other is the opposite, and I am a bit unsure what I do to switch and which way I use when I start to talk. I tend to use the bad voice when I am feeling insecure, I think.

It's  just very frustrating.  I was trying a loud voice today and the resonance is just terrible - it was fine before surgery.  Now when I am loud the pitch is a lot higher (like 225-260 average!), but it does not sound like a woman speaking loudly at all. I know we're our own worst critics, but it sounds more like a guy putting on a voice. Why would it be harder now??!? Is this something that is just going to take ages to sort out?

Quote from: Denjin on June 15, 2016, 12:29:47 PM
It's  just very frustrating.  I was trying a loud voice today and the resonance is just terrible - it was fine before surgery.  Now when I am loud the pitch is a lot higher (like 225-260 average!), but it does not sound like a woman speaking loudly at all. I know we're our own worst critics, but it sounds more like a guy putting on a voice. Why would it be harder now??!? Is this something that is just going to take ages to sort out?

Sorry to hear that sweetie! As long as I remember (I tried to find your pre-op voice via voocaroo and listen to it again but it's apparently no longer available) you had the resonance...what happened? Maybe you need some more time for botox to wear off completely...Hang in there!

Well, I can do my resonance again, mostly, at a normal or quiet voice I think.  It's just failing when I try to be a lot louder.  Perhaps it is botox or something, but that wears off within the next six weeks so we shall see.

Yeah some of the old recordings are gone (which is why I put them on vocaroo, since it expires), but I do have local copies if anyone is curious.  I never made any with a loud voice, though.  The feeling when I speak is still very odd, like I get too much vibration in my throat, if that makes sense.

Thats weird but maybe it makes sense. In a way, I am not "doing anything" now when I speak loud. Actually doing less works better than trying to do my old resonance stuff - which now only makes my voice sound bad and maybe even more masculine. I lust have to remind myself to relax and let my voice do its job without "doing resonance" consciously. It may not be a perfect feminine voice, but its female, that I am pretty sure of. Maybe you are actually doing too much?

Quote from: anjaq on June 15, 2016, 04:25:33 PM
Thats weird but maybe it makes sense. In a way, I am not "doing anything" now when I speak loud. Actually doing less works better than trying to do my old resonance stuff - which now only makes my voice sound bad and maybe even more masculine. I lust have to remind myself to relax and let my voice do its job without "doing resonance" consciously. It may not be a perfect feminine voice, but its female, that I am pretty sure of. Maybe you are actually doing too much?

Perhaps it is just a couple decades of habit, then.  I just know my resonance is driving me mad the way it feels (the vibration feeling in my throat and head).  I swear the feeling of vibration in my throat is much much stronger than it was before surgery (obviously has to vibrate, given the cords are there) - wonder if that means I'm speaking too low or something.

Next week I'll just mention the laryngitis and hope to not have to speak overly loud.

As i said - I had 18 years of habit of speaking in a feminized voice and I believe I often get it right now but all too often I still do it wrong. Thats 16 months post OP now. I guess it will have to weed itself out with time...

Quote from: Denjin on June 15, 2016, 03:51:49 PM
Well, I can do my resonance again, mostly, at a normal or quiet voice I think.  It's just failing when I try to be a lot louder.  Perhaps it is botox or something, but that wears off within the next six weeks so we shall see.

Yeah some of the old recordings are gone (which is why I put them on vocaroo, since it expires), but I do have local copies if anyone is curious.  I never made any with a loud voice, though.  The feeling when I speak is still very odd, like I get too much vibration in my throat, if that makes sense.

I agree that you still have the resonance and you definitely gained pitch. Yeah! It must be the botox IMO...

I remember that you already sounded good before the surgery but do you mind me sending a copy of your pre-op voice please?

I also have that vocal folds vibration from time to time when I speak and I echo you that it doesn't feel right...

All part of the healing process I guess, Brenda. :)  I have PM'd you some voice clips that show how my voice maybe used to sound.  Those are not my good trained version, but lower ones, so maybe more like what my voice was like way back in the day!

Quote from: Denjin on June 19, 2016, 11:37:33 AM
All part of the healing process I guess, Brenda. :)  I have PM'd you some voice clips that show how my voice maybe used to sound.  Those are not my good trained version, but lower ones, so maybe more like what my voice was like way back in the day!

I just listened to your old voice clips and thank you so so much for taking the time for sending them :)

OMG! You did really work bloody hard to get that trained voice and I honestly admire girls like you!

Yes! Your new pitch has put a very nice coat on your trained voice ;)

After listening to them, I felt a sudden guilt because I must admit that I did NOT really work hard enough my voice and chose voice surgery instead...very well done sweetie! :)

Thanks :)  Although using that voice for many years did some damage I think...

One thing is crazy is how messed up the brain is. :p  When I speak, I still think it sounds like the old voice or maybe low.  However, I'll record it and then play it back and it's a lot higher and sounds ok to me.  Something else that will take a while to get used to!

Quote from: Denjin on June 20, 2016, 05:09:14 AM
Thanks :)  Although using that voice for many years did some damage I think...

You're quite welcome! :) I think so but try to look at the good side of it because you are now using that trained voice + the pitch increase from surgery without effort...

Quote from: Denjin
One thing is crazy is how messed up the brain is. :p  When I speak, I still think it sounds like the old voice or maybe low.  However, I'll record it and then play it back and it's a lot higher and sounds ok to me.  Something else that will take a while to get used to!

That's exactly I was telling to Carmen (she had the voice surgery too) that our brain is a bit lost and messed up after the surgery! ;D

No matter what, there will always be unfortunately a subtle sound of our old trained voice even after surgery...this surgery just won't let you go from "Cher" to "Madonna"...

Quote from: bmiranda on June 19, 2016, 03:35:55 PM
After listening to them, I felt a sudden guilt because I must admit that I did NOT really work hard enough my voice and chose voice surgery instead...very well done sweetie! :)

In some ways it may be better. Some of the things learned to make a good trained voice have to be unlearned again after surgery and for some, using the trained voice for years does some damage - I think in most cases it definitely changes the voice away from a normal function

Quote from: anjaq on June 20, 2016, 08:49:57 AM
In some ways it may be better. Some of the things learned to make a good trained voice have to be unlearned again after surgery and for some, using the trained voice for years does some damage - I think in most cases it definitely changes the voice away from a normal function

Really? I always got jealous of girls who have a good trained voice but I think I was just too lazy because I am passing anyway (w/o bragging) on a daily life even with that low old voice anyway...

I don't know what would be if one has a professionally trained voice, maybe that works. For me it was like that - I did some things to make my voice pass as long as I was present (it failed 50% on the phone) that worked ok, but those things in the long run, after 15 years, did some damage to my voice and I have bad voice habits that put too much force or tension on my voice and vocal muscles, that cause vocal fry or breathy voice - and after surgery it was and still is a struggle to get rid of these old habits. Of course some are ok - pronounciation, voice melody, some parts of resonance,... its a bit selective. I guess ideally one would train the voice only using those parts that are still good after a surgery

;)

Quote from: anjaq on June 21, 2016, 04:27:48 AM
I don't know what would be if one has a professionally trained voice, maybe that works. For me it was like that - I did some things to make my voice pass as long as I was present (it failed 50% on the phone) that worked ok, but those things in the long run, after 15 years, did some damage to my voice and I have bad voice habits that put too much force or tension on my voice and vocal muscles, that cause vocal fry or breathy voice - and after surgery it was and still is a struggle to get rid of these old habits. Of course some are ok - pronounciation, voice melody, some parts of resonance,... its a bit selective. I guess ideally one would train the voice only using those parts that are still good after a surgery

;)

I personally think that it will work for a professionally trained voice...I heard your post op voice and you sound really good to me. You and Denjin both worked really hard on your voices before which I would have probably done and this surgery just gave you a higher pitch and put a nice coat on it...

Quote from: Denjin on April 27, 2016, 10:18:32 AM
The following links were very helpful:
Great Site to see how to get from A to B using the subway - http://seoul.exploremetro.com/en/#
Has lots of info about visiting Korea - http://english.visitkorea.or.kr/enu/index.kto
Got a 4G wifi device to carry around - https://roaming.kt.com/rental/eng/product/wibro.asp

Dear Denjin

Thank you very much for all these informations. I also rented one of the portable 4G WiFi routers to have no roaming costs then my wife and I are in Seoul...

Perfect money saver!

Take care
Danielle

I'm glad the information is useful. :)  You must be getting excited!

On another note, I'll do my three month update tomorrow, or perhaps Thursday.  It depends how much I abuse my voice - insane amounts of talking today and also tomorrow I think.

Hi :)  Here is my 12 week post-op reading of the rainbow passage.  Not too bad considering how much I've had to use my voice the last two days. I have a slight speech impediment and since i'm tired you'll notice it slightly more than usual.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1w2u1Y2qnWp (different mic from recording below).

Oh, here is free speaking
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0PbCdjcyQ5K

Shared the last clips with Yeson and Dr. Kim thinks my progress is 'very positive'.  At this point they don't want me to start the clonazepam yet but wait another month and see.

My voice is a lot better, most of the time. It still takes a bit more effort to speak loudly, but I can totally do it now and people tell me my voice is clearer than it was before surgery.  I have the cutest giggle, too.  Before surgery I could make sure my laughs, giggles, sneezes, etc., were feminine but I don't need to try now and they sound better.

So, I'm now in the 'happy' camp in terms of results. :D

Quote from: Denjin on June 22, 2016, 04:48:45 PM
Hi :)  Here is my 12 week post-op reading of the rainbow passage.  Not too bad considering how much I've had to use my voice the last two days. I have a slight speech impediment and since i'm tired you'll notice it slightly more than usual.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1w2u1Y2qnWp (different mic from recording below).

Oh, here is free speaking
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0PbCdjcyQ5K

I hate repeating myself but you sound always good to me and it sounds clearer and better now :)

Quote from: Denjin on June 27, 2016, 01:33:46 AM
Shared the last clips with Yeson and Dr. Kim thinks my progress is 'very positive'.  At this point they don't want me to start the clonazepam yet but wait another month and see.

My voice is a lot better, most of the time. It still takes a bit more effort to speak loudly, but I can totally do it now and people tell me my voice is clearer than it was before surgery.  I have the cutest giggle, too.  Before surgery I could make sure my laughs, giggles, sneezes, etc., were feminine but I don't need to try now and they sound better.

So, I'm now in the 'happy' camp in terms of results. :D

Youpi! Congrats!!!

I agree that you sound clearer and better! (Oops! Sorry I've just repeated myself again :embarrassed:)

What is Clonazepam by the way?

Brenda :-*

Thanks, Brenda. :)  It does sound a tiny bit better each week. Which is good since I've been having interviews lately!  I think I finally have my old resonance control mostly back, although the feeling in my face is different. Perhaps that's just due to the higher pitch resonating differently, though.

Clonazepam is a type of anxiolytic medicine I think (anti anxiety), but much more mild than diazepam/valium.  In this case he prescribes it for its muscle relaxing characteristics, which can help with a vocal tremor and other issues.

Quote from: Denjin on June 28, 2016, 02:59:42 AM
Thanks, Brenda. :)  It does sound a tiny bit better each week. Which is good since I've been having interviews lately!  I think I finally have my old resonance control mostly back, although the feeling in my face is different. Perhaps that's just due to the higher pitch resonating differently, though.

You're always welcome sweetie and nice to hear that you are getting your old resonance back! :) Perhaps it's the botox wearing off slowly which is good.

Quote from: Denjin
Clonazepam is a type of anxiolytic medicine I think (anti anxiety), but much more mild than diazepam/valium.  In this case he prescribes it for its muscle relaxing characteristics, which can help with a vocal tremor and other issues.

Oh! Ok! Thanks for the info :)

I hope it is the botox, Brenda. :)  Will know within a month, though, I guess.

Tomorrow I'm seeing a ENT who will take a look at my vocal cords.  Doctors seem terrible in the UK, but maybe I'll get lucky and they'll have some useful comment or let me take a picture (or provide one).

As expected, the ENT was totally useless.  I have no granulation, and it looked 'ok' but she didn't even know what glottoplasty was!!?!?!?  All she could say is that when I phonate (iiiiii sound) the folds aren't closing completely.  Not a tremor (I asked), just that they don't close all the way.  I guess this could explain the volume issues.

Got a referral to yet another doctor...lol

So, anything that can be done or is this just a healing/time thing?  Perhaps it is muscle tension dysphonia or something.  She also said one side is still thicker than the other (was before surgery,too). Passed the information on to Dr. Kim.

Can you get a copy of the video they did or screenshots? Dr Kim can look at those.
Incomplete closure is very common at this stage and makes the breathiness and lower volume int he first months. It usually passes - more healing, but also adaptation to the new vocal chords are needed. Tremor can cause incomplete closure in that Dr Kim regards it as tremor when muscles tense up and "pull apart" the vocal chords instead of letting them close completely. Botox and Clonazepam are supposed to help relax those muscles. But more importantly are voice exercises and speech therapy. Many women have some incomplete closure at the "back end", its not uncommon, so that would not be to worry about , if it is only that.

Quote from: anjaq on June 30, 2016, 05:58:14 AM
Can you get a copy of the video they did or screenshots? Dr Kim can look at those.
Incomplete closure is very common at this stage and makes the breathiness and lower volume int he first months. It usually passes - more healing, but also adaptation to the new vocal chords are needed. Tremor can cause incomplete closure in that Dr Kim regards it as tremor when muscles tense up and "pull apart" the vocal chords instead of letting them close completely. Botox and Clonazepam are supposed to help relax those muscles. But more importantly are voice exercises and speech therapy. Many women have some incomplete closure at the "back end", its not uncommon, so that would not be to worry about , if it is only that.

Thanks, Anja.  No idea, unfortunately.  The ENT was absolute pants - I've pretty much had it with the NHS.  At least she is referring me to a 'speech clinic' that can do videos.  She did say they won't provide copies, though, so I'll go to go by what they say.

I need a real speech therapist, too, as mine has no clue.  There are just no options up here. :(

Sounds even worse than here - at least in Munich and Berlin and some other big cities there seem to be proper speech doctors, although the one I go to has also just an office the size of my bedroom including her examination room. Sigh. But at least she is helpful and gives me copies of the videos. Maybe you can take someone with you who can make a video of what is seen on the screen during the examination?

Quote from: Denjin on June 30, 2016, 05:31:56 AM
As expected, the ENT was totally useless.  I have no granulation, and it looked 'ok' but she didn't even know what glottoplasty was!!?!?!?  All she could say is that when I phonate (iiiiii sound) the folds aren't closing completely.  Not a tremor (I asked), just that they don't close all the way.  I guess this could explain the volume issues.

Got a referral to yet another doctor...lol

So, anything that can be done or is this just a healing/time thing?  Perhaps it is muscle tension dysphonia or something.  She also said one side is still thicker than the other (was before surgery,too). Passed the information on to Dr. Kim.

The problems you describe are usual. I was told by the surgeon that most ENTs would not really know that much about the glottoplasty procedure. The closure problem you describe will effect volume etc, but it can be mostly fixed by exercises. Get a video done and post it off to the surgeon and follow whatever advice they give. Patience is needed, but it will get better.

Thanks for both of those replies.  It totally explains why it takes more effort to speak loudly. :)  It is also one of those things that gets a TINY bit better each week, so if that continues, I'll be happy!  On the up side, at least I can speak loudly or even yell if I need to, and it never hurts afterwards.

It will be literally months before I get someone to take a proper examination, though, with video (if I get that at all).

Sorry for all the 'bumping' of my own thread lately. :)  I'm just winding back my posting so thought I'd have a few more voice clips due to this.  However, going forward there won't be more until after my botox has completely worn off (in another 3 weeks?) and then the updates will be sparse.  I do monitor the thread via email notifications, though, so just reply if you ever have questions or anything.  Since my voice files do expire eventually, just PM me and I'll share privately. :)

As we were talking about speaking loudly, here are two clips speaking what seems loud now (but probably just barely above normal those I interact with).  Praat is showing just a bit over 225 average, but that's because when I go above a quieter volume the pitch goes up 10-15 Hz on average. I'm at about 13.5 weeks now.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s04fNeKInF4J

The Caterpillar
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1FvvNruJzPC

And I don't remember 100% what my voice was like before training or anything, but I tried to do the old voice whilst reading the Rainbow Passage, before surgery (just under 160hz):
Old voice?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JT9xexzlK7

Quote from: Denjin on July 01, 2016, 08:46:17 AM
Sorry for all the 'bumping' of my own thread lately. :)  I'm just winding back my posting so thought I'd have a few more voice clips due to this.  However, going forward there won't be more until after my botox has completely worn off (in another 3 weeks?) and then the updates will be sparse.  I do monitor the thread via email notifications, though, so just reply if you ever have questions or anything.  Since my voice files do expire eventually, just PM me and I'll share privately. :)

As we were talking about speaking loudly, here are two clips speaking what seems loud now (but probably just barely above normal those I interact with).  Praat is showing just a bit over 225 average, but that's because when I go above a quieter volume the pitch goes up 10-15 Hz on average. I'm at about 13.5 weeks now.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s04fNeKInF4J

The Caterpillar
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1FvvNruJzPC

And I don't remember 100% what my voice was like before training or anything, but I tried to do the old voice whilst reading the Rainbow Passage, before surgery (just under 160hz):
Old voice?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JT9xexzlK7

Sounding clearer and better Denjin!

Quote from: Denjin on June 30, 2016, 05:31:56 AM
As expected, the ENT was totally useless.  I have no granulation, and it looked 'ok' but she didn't even know what glottoplasty was!!?!?!?  All she could say is that when I phonate (iiiiii sound) the folds aren't closing completely.  Not a tremor (I asked), just that they don't close all the way.  I guess this could explain the volume issues.

Got a referral to yet another doctor...lol

So, anything that can be done or is this just a healing/time thing?  Perhaps it is muscle tension dysphonia or something.  She also said one side is still thicker than the other (was before surgery,too). Passed the information on to Dr. Kim.

LOL! This is why I chose the option to see Professor Remacle for follow-ups :D

Try to have an appt with Remacle if you can afford it. He is very good, although a little pricey.

Denjin, your voice sounds good to me, what I notice is problems with your entonation that can be addressed with speech therapy. You actually have the right idea of the entonation it just seems you go up sometimes in an odd part of a word or sentence rather than where it naturally leads you to go up or down, so a few tiny parts seem forced you could say. But overall I think you are on the right track and addressing those small issues you should be fine in no time. You'll see :)

I am having to go to an ENT myself, I'm making an apt with the GP tomorrow to get referred for the endoscopy. I'm gonna take my bf with me and have him take the pics . Sadly I developed a strep throat type infection a couple of days ago and it's such early days after my surgery I am very worried about it affecting the correct healing of my vocal folds...  Now I read your experience with nhs ENTs I'm not gonna expect a whole lot ... But I'll try and get those pics for Remacle. Did they allow you to take the pics?? How did you ask for the referral? X

I'm glad I read your thread this is my first time checking it out .

Hugs

Quote from: calicarly on July 05, 2016, 12:03:10 PM
Denjin, your voice sounds good to me, what I notice is problems with your entonation that can be addressed with speech therapy. You actually have the right idea of the entonation it just seems you go up sometimes in an odd part of a word or sentence rather than where it naturally leads you to go up or down, so a few tiny parts seem forced you could say. But overall I think you are on the right track and addressing those small issues you should be fine in no time. You'll see :)

I am having to go to an ENT myself, I'm making an apt with the GP tomorrow to get referred for the endoscopy. I'm gonna take my bf with me and have him take the pics . Sadly I developed a strep throat type infection a couple of days ago and it's such early days after my surgery I am very worried about it affecting the correct healing of my vocal folds...  Now I read your experience with nhs ENTs I'm not gonna expect a whole lot ... But I'll try and get those pics for Remacle. Did they allow you to take the pics?? How did you ask for the referral? X

I'm glad I read your thread this is my first time checking it out .

Hugs

Thanks, Cali.  I had the intonation fine before surgery, so most of it is due to pitch control still being harder for me at the moment....or at least different.  Also, performance anxiety due to recording perhaps. lol :)

I imagine strep shouldn't be too much of a problem, just painful of course. :( 

For the referral, just tell your GP you had some micro laryngeal surgery privately and want to have an examination by a ENT to make sure it's healing fine.  Unfortunately, the ENT I went to was terrible so they are referring me to a voice clinic!?! I think.  I'll know 100% when the referral letter arrives in the post (and will update this thread).  The ENT I saw said she's not sure if a video or photo will be allowed...  Not impressed with the NHS.

And, Ritana - thanks!  I might as well see if the next referral comes through, but if not I'll go see Remacle.  At least it was confirmed that I don't have any granulation or anything, which is a plus.

I think the pricy part about getting a checkup with Remarcle is the travelling. The examination itself is not that epensive - at least not if you compare it to Yeson. They charge several hundred Dollars for that full voice examination they do before surgery if you opt to only get that done and no surgery...

Hi Denjin,

Thanks Hun I got the referral with no problem. I printed out Remacle's email and the GP seemed to be pretty agreeable to it and said just snap a pic while the endoscopy is happening and took a copy of the email so just so they know to expect me to want the image.

I hope you're right that the strep won't affect things. Sure makes me feel better to read that.. I got some antibiotics in the meantime... I'm only a week and a day into recovery. When did you start talking? I know yeson has different post op directions...

Quote from: calicarly on July 06, 2016, 12:09:55 PM
Hi Denjin,

Thanks Hun I got the referral with no problem. I printed out Remacle's email and the GP seemed to be pretty agreeable to it and said just snap a pic while the endoscopy is happening and took a copy of the email so just so they know to expect me to want the image.

I hope you're right that the strep won't affect things. Sure makes me feel better to read that.. I got some antibiotics in the meantime... I'm only a week and a day into recovery. When did you start talking? I know yeson has different post op directions...

I'd imagine, worst case, that the strep would just interfere with the healing and make it take a bit longer, dunno.  It affects higher up in the throat than the actual vocal cord area I think?

No speaking for a month with Yeson although I started doing a little bit at three weeks.  You'd need to ask Brenda in her thread about the differences as she's more familiar with the Remacle side of things.  No idea why everyone has different recommendations..

So is the incomplete glottal closure (whatever you want to call it) just a normal thing that takes time?  Yeson won't reply to my emails now... reminds me of how Suporn quit speaking to me when I had complications.

I always had replies from Yeson when I was worried. Its just that they seem to get a lot of requests and sometimes they do not know what to say, also Jessie always has to ask Dr Kim if it is more complicated and that depends on him having the time. I would not worry and if there is no reply in 1-2 weeks, maybe send another short email. Always keep emails short, Jessie does not like pages long emails ;)

The incomplete closure is AFAIK rather common. I think it gets better with healing, but mostly it gets better with training. Basically it probably means that some muscles are pulling the vocal folds apart while you are trying to speak. This is in part realted to the "vocal tremor" that Dr Kim describes, but also it can be bad habits, the muscles not yet being adapted to the new situation or your subconscious doing weird things - also consider that an incomplete closure at the back end is present in a majority of women - so it it is that, I would not worry at all.

Thanks, Anja.  The ENT was pretty terrible, so I don't know the full details... Hopefully they really did refer me to the voice clinic and I can get a good answer.

On a separate note - it's so hard to get rid of old habits.  My voice feels stressed today (phone calls, etc.).  So, I record my voice and I'm speaking at like 240Hz. My relaxed voice should be nearer to 210... this means I'm still unconsciously going into the pre-surgery habits.  It's a long road!

Quote from: Denjin on July 11, 2016, 06:09:40 AM
So is the incomplete glottal closure (whatever you want to call it) just a normal thing that takes time?  Yeson won't reply to my emails now... reminds me of how Suporn quit speaking to me when I had complications.

Don't worry sweetie as my case is the same and Professor Remacle said it's normal. Here is the video of my vocal folds showing it : https://sendvid.com/yt2mzvg8

He said that this will go over time and volume will be ok then.

As Anjaq said, be patient with Dr Kim's response because he is very busy but he will reply you.

What a weird video - you do not see anything when you are making a sound... why is that?

Mine looks like this:
https://sendvid.com/nhlsuxiu

you can see that at the Top (back) it does not close completely, but the SLT and the doctor said that this is pretty normal for many or even most women, so I am not giving it much worries anymore

Thanks, Anja and Brenda.  Yeah a quick google does show that incomplete glottal closure is the norm, really.  One day I'll get a video and see exactly where it was happening.

Overall I'm pretty happy now, though.  Can only imagine how happy I'll be after I have lots of time to heal and get used to things.

Hey Denjin! How has the past week or so been? Any updates?

Quote from: andreah on July 20, 2016, 12:10:29 PM
Hey Denjin! How has the past week or so been? Any updates?

HI :)  No major changes in a while I don't think... But, I will post a month 4 update next week sometime, with new recordings.  It's definitely a long process as I notice I fall into old speech patterns sometimes which push my voice too high (for me anyway) and put some undue stress on everything.

Never did get the referral mail, either, so perhaps the rubbish ENT didn't refer me to the speech clinic.

Those of you were were told to start taking clonezepam, I have a questions...  When and why were you told to start taking it?

Obviously he said I may need to take it when the botox wore off, but after my three month recordings were sent I was told not to start taking it.  Is it something he might say after he gets my month four recordings?

I took it after I experienced some decline in voice quality after about 3 months , I did a recording and sent it in and Dr Kim said to take the pills. If you do not need them (yet), I would not take them. They are a bit tough - some have side effects of them, most have withdrawal symptoms when stopping them. So unless the Dr says to take them, I would not do so.

Same as Anjaq, around 4thonth my voice started breaking.  I don't think clonazopam has helped much though. I do lots of breathing exercises that help with that.

Like Anjaq said, Clonazopam can have some serious side effects. Do read about them before u decide to take it!!

Thanks, Anja and Ritana, for the replies.  I have no idea, then.  I do still have a tremor, but honestly that is never going to go away and shortening the cords will make it worse anyway.  The whole botox thing for it seems a scam in retrospect.  However, the recordings sounds decent enough to Dr. Kim.  I'll do a 4 month one in a few days and see what they say. :)

Well, I am not sure, but i think the Botox nd Clonazepam helped me to learn to use my voice in a way that has less tremor. It does not always work , though, sometimes I just get a lot of tremor and roughness again, but on other days it works

Hmm, could be.  I don't notice it unless I try to hold certain notes for a long time, though.  We'll see in a few days. :)

Also, turns out I was referred to a speech centre and go in two weeks.  The reservation call seemed like it was for a speech therapist, though, so hope they sent me to the right place!

Ah ok - thats not a bad tremor then. I have the issue that it leads to making my voice go into vocal fry or gives it a buzz at times - so it does affect my speaking voice. And that is a bit less now after 2 rounds of clonazepam

Quote from: anjaq on July 23, 2016, 02:18:01 AM
Ah ok - thats not a bad tremor then. I have the issue that it leads to making my voice go into vocal fry or gives it a buzz at times - so it does affect my speaking voice. And that is a bit less now after 2 rounds of clonazepam

Eep!! Hopefully it does go away over time.  Definitely don't have anything like that here and just asked my partner to confirm. It's just a tiny bit worse when making long 'tones'.

Should count my blessings I guess.

Well I did have issues with that before the surgery - so its not something new. It has most likely something to do with those 18 years of mistreating my poor voice

Something I see in my voice and it may be common to all of us is we may be using a range that is lower than we should be. I find roughness in my voice when I am relaxed and I allow the pitch to drop. If I bring the pitch up a bit, the voice soothes out and seems to work much better. It may have to do with the fact that our vocal cords while shorter are still more massive that a CIS woman's and we need a bit more tension to prevent the cords from flopping around when in used. Any opinions on this thought?

That may well be. Another explanation is - the same thing does happen with other women who bring their voice down low - so it may really just be that its that thing about the brain adapting to the right tension  to use to make the voice clear at the pitch is is now good at. We still think "relaxed" is lower than it really is now.
No human can speak with totally relaxe vocal folds - you always need some tension to make a controlled sound.

Another possible explanation is, that with too much relaxation the new "commissure" may not be stable in position. it is after all held in place by soft tissue and muscles and not by cartilage.

I have videos of ma vocal chords and they do show that there is sometimes an asymmetry - as if someone pulls one of the vocal folds to the side and leaves the other in place. I think this is what the "tremor" means - some muscles pull that one side away from the center line where otherwise they would just meet and make a clean sound

Could be something about speaking 'too relaxed'.  Doing that is still a it low (nothing like it was before, though) and is somehow more stressful than adding some tension.

OK, here is my month four recording.  I did another one after this and it was 215 Hz instead of 220 something, so who knows what I'm doing. :)  I'll send the slightly lower Hz one across to Dr. Kim, though.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s13ARWNcaxVM

My volume is pretty good now - although it does take more effort than before.  At least I've been able to do interviews with no problem, speak on conference calls, and be heard just fine in meetings.

I'll just monitor this thread via email alerts now as I'm very busy in real life.  The next audio update will be in two months... any questions do reply here and I'll respond, though.

Response from Dr. Kim in regards to my month four recording:

Quote
Your pitch-increasing process is going well but it's yet to be stabilized more so you should focus more on the resonance training to fully use the female resonance. Voice volume will improve by time. You don't need to take further medication.

Not sure how to focus on female resonance, as even the voice therapist didn't have any suggestions.  Still, progressing fine I guess. It's also good to not need to take the clonazepam. :)

I think for Dr Kim the "resonance training" is the ng-ah and meaoung exercises. If done properly, they should focus the resonance in the front of the mouth, they should improve projection and you are supposed to really open your jaw with the jaw-muscles for them, loosening the jaw muscles and not using throat muscles for speaking at all if possible. All of this should improve "resonance".

Not sure why resonance gets worse after vfs and needs so much training. I think the newly created folds don't work well with the preop straining technique as it creates an even more masculine resonance. Those of us who had a decent trained voice preop know what im talking about.

I think its both - most of us lack proper resonance training before and have used some technique to shift the voice towards female in some way or another - usually probably by force. And this does not work anymore post OP. Also the voice just generally works differently. So one has to basically re-learn how to properly use the voice and learn for the first time to use resonance in a way that is really female and not forced into female sounding patterns, if that makes sense

True comments from both of you...

Well, I honestly have no idea what to do.  My voice therapist had no idea, Yeson's email didn't explain it much, either.  Next Friday I do have an appointment with some speech centre (referral from my last useless ENT) - perhaps they can help.  I don't think my voice sounds bad or anything, though, and is mostly better than before...even though I did pass fine before.

Resonance is a big factor in achieving a NATURALLY feminine voice! Certain exercises can help, however they take several months to start producing results. Your voice doesn't sound croaky or broken so, in my opinion, you don't need clonazepam (not yet anyway).

At some point one has to say its enough, as well. If your voice passes all the time and it is not strained or sounding broken, its up to you to improve it or not. My SLT last week told me, that of course I can improve my voice - there is always something to improve, but its not really a must, because I have no more bigger issues and my voice is not gendered male, so I will take a break from SLT for a while

True Anja; however, we are are worst critic when it comes to judging aspects of our femininity. I personally think my voice is feminine; however, I would like to work and bit more on resonance. It's about learning a totally new way of speaking!

True comments above. :)

I'm mostly happy with my  voice.  I mean, we're all our worst critics anyway, and it worked fine before and seems to work fine now.  Still, if I ever find a speech therapist who is familiar with trans stuff I might see if they have any suggestions.

Also, I'm doing something stupid around people.  At the end of a work day, my voice is just knackered and I don't think I'm speaking that much.  However, I've had interviews and other situations where I spoke tons with people I don't know and did not end up with a super tired voice at the end of the day.  So, definitely some unconscious habits involved somewhere.

I think one can always improve something about the voice

Old habits are really annoying, but I am not so sure SLT can help with much more than maybe recognizing them - they will have to go away by always watching them and avoiding them if one falls into them. For example if I argue with a friend, my voice tends to get lower and louder, this is not good for my voice...

My SLT did mostly non trans related stuff with me post OP - so basically it seems that one doe snot realla always need a trans specialist post OP to improve the voice. We just mainly did voice health exercises - in a way, when I use my voice ow properly without hurting or distorting it, its female anyways, so no need to feminize it now. Just to not misuse it again.

The same may be true for resonance - it may be that it is less about forcing the resonance into a female resonance pattern now, but basically to just get resonance at all, or rather projection and loudness - the male way of getting this does not work properly anymore, it hurts and sounds weak and broken, so one basically again just has to learn to use the voice in the way it works now.

Thanks, Anja - all very helpful. :) 

I've started getting sore throat when speaking lately. This hasn't been the cast for the past two months... it's not botox related is it?  Recording my voice it doesn't seem like I'm pushing it higher than usual or anything, so I'm not quite sure why I get sore throats now.

I guess the sore throats were just random as it's not happened for a few days.  However, I do think caffeinated drinks make it worse so I avoid them for the most part.  Or, it's all psychosomatic, who knows!

See the SLT tomorrow, but I found out she doesn't have the kit to look at my vocal cords.  So far the NHS has been an absolute shower!  Hopefully I can ask her to refer me... Still, it will be nice to see an SLT, but not sure what to talk to her about.

The NHS has always been.a shower. If you want a good service, you'll need to go private. There is a good ENT specialist (who also does vfs) in Harley Street, Central London. He is very skilled; however, his prices are quite dear. Christella Antoni, who iw a SLT speciacised trans voices is another option. She charges over 100 pounds/ session.

Well, it's been a bit more than five months now. :)  I can't tell a huge difference in the last month, although my coworkers claim I'm sounding even better. However, I am still using my speaking muscles weird sometimes as I will feel strained after talking.  This mainly happens after work and does not happen when out and about or at home.

In terms of loudness, when I'm not doing 'something weird' as mentioned earlier I can get very loud too.

In terms of pitch increase, I'm only at 40-50Hz, however.

Sounds very very similar to me - Pitch increase is 50 Hz and when I am falling into bad habits I use my voice in the wrong way and then I get strained...

I just listened to your recording. Your pitch sounds nice not sure where it is but sounds like middle of the female range somewhere. It's the resonance that is just slightly off. In my eyes (or ears) resonance is what gives both females and males voices a sex appeal and smoothness. I can hear you're speaking from your throat, maybe not your chest, but you're not speaking from your head (mouth) The sound has to project from high up near the front of your mouth (it "resonates' there if you will, you should almost feel it echoing near the roof of your mouth. If you ever notice sometimes some women, usually heavy set women due to being bigger, project from further back to aid with breathing and due to larger size, hence you often can tell it's a larger woman it's their resonance that is different, not the pitch... I don't know if I'm making any sense but I am seeing so many people having a hard time with this. I wish I could explain it better... I didn't have any official training but it's just something I don't have a hard time with. A voice coach would have to be knowledgeable in the difference in muscles used by men and women in speaking . Men are lazy speakers and thats why they tend to speak from their chest. Women are expressive speakers. So that's why we speak from our heads because we can modulate better make more sounds go higher and lower at will. If your voice comes from further inside you you can't do any of those... Your entonation is something you've obviously been working on tho, which is good. You sound like a heavy lady to me, because of where your resonance comes from but you sound like a female no question !! I hope my post makes some sense.  Congrats!

I think many of us are a bit on the heavier or bigger side, so it makes sense that resonance matches that, but ideally one should get it changed. My issue with it is, that a pure mouth resonance is a bit low in volume, so people tend to ask to repeat myself - more loudness requires more vibrations coming from the throat. Also something I notice is that because speaking from the mouth is not "lazy", it also means that it needs muscle tension more - and this can easily go wrong and then the voice gets strained by forcing it too much. Its not so easy to find the middle way between being lazy and relaxed and expressive but strained - this is what IMO takes the most time in VFS recovery - to figure out the best resonance to match the new voice and not be too lazy and fall down in pitch and resonance - and not be too tight and forced and strain the voice.

Thanks for the comments. :)  I'm definitely not heavy - I'm tall and skinny.  I did have better resonance before all of this, it's something I now struggle with...  However, I do pass 100% anyway (and did before), so it's just more of a voice quality thing I think. 

I know how to do the speaking like Cali says, I guess I just hoped to not have to do anything and 'just speak'?  But, the surgery only alters pitch of course!  All my my recordings here are not trying to do the proper resonance. I find that when I get the resonance right I'm also raising the pitch, which I shouldn't be doing now.

Quote from: Denjin on August 26, 2016, 05:32:38 AM
Thanks for the comments. :)  I'm definitely not heavy - I'm tall and skinny.  I did have better resonance before all of I find that when I get the resonance right I'm also raising the pitch, which I shouldn't be doing now.

Why not? I think this is what those with 260 Hz recordings do, they try to hit a different resonance - and in the process the pitch changes. It was the same pre OP - when I did the resonance change, my pitch went from mid-lower male range to neutral range. I think it is linked. If I really try to change resonance, my pitch goes up from 180 to 220 or even 260 Hz on average... I feel odd then, though:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1S4OwgFxZqs 220 Hz
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1qaTiz0J13g 270 Hz

So it's a bit of a choice which pitch and resonance to use post OP - there are better choices now than pre OP for sure (even reaching my usual 180 Hz would have been a strain pre OP) - but also its a it hard to find a good spot that feels good and also does not hurt or strain

Thanks, Anja. Both recordings sound good to me, but I prefer the slightly lower one. :) If I do a similar recording, the high pitch is a bit strained...

As for why I didn't think I should be raising pitch.  Basically, Dr. Kim said to 'just speak' and not to strain the throat muscles or anything.  However, proper resonance does require some amount of throat muscle use.  I'll do a recording later today once I'm all warmed up where I try a little bit.

Yes - I tried to speak as relaxed as possible post OP, but basically what is the result of that is that the pitch is lower than his estimated target and that I had a lot of breathiness - if I really want to change resonance and breathiness, it is needed to have some tension in the vocal muscles. So if I am really relaxed and try not to use any tension, I get 170 Hz, if I use some tension, just enough to make my voice have a feminine resonance, I actually do get to the 200-220 range that he predicted. If I put more effort into changing resonance, I end up even higher, but I think the 270 Hz range is not suiting me - I do not feel it strains me a lot - but it probably does strain my voice a bit more - maybe like using my trained voice pre-OP...

I can totally relate to what you're saying.  However, I've not really tried to do it and raise the voice a bit more at the same time.

Below is a reading when I put some effort into enunciating, etc.  Only results in a 10-15 Hz increase, so not too much stress I guess.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1YAMj6VcPjp

What also matters in terms of pitch readings (average pitch, for example in PRAAT) is modulation/enunciation. So if you speak in a monotonous voice, the pitch will always be much lower than if you use your pitch range and modulate the voice by going up and down in pitch - because usually your monotonous pitch will be in the lower third of that range.
I demonstrated this, I believe in one of the threads on voice analysis. The lower pitch of the voice dows not change, but because there are more higher parts , the average goes up.

Hi :)  It's been a bit over six months since my surgery so thought my thread needed an update.

Here is a rainbow passage reading - I think it's slightly higher than normal since it's the end of the day.  If you would like some other recording, let me know, although I'll not leave the links up for too long.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0bCj2bVYurW

Generally my voice is strong enough and loud enough now that I don't have any issues.  As the healing apparently takes a year, I'm quite looking forward to how the next six months go.

Quote from: Denjin on October 17, 2016, 01:31:19 PM
Hi :)  It's been a bit over six months since my surgery so thought my thread needed an update.

Here is a rainbow passage reading - I think it's slightly higher than normal since it's the end of the day.  If you would like some other recording, let me know, although I'll not leave the links up for too long.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0bCj2bVYurW

Generally my voice is strong enough and loud enough now that I don't have any issues.  As the healing apparently takes a year, I'm quite looking forward to how the next six months go.

Hello Denjin!

I was totally unaware of this thread. What a treasure trove! Thank you for sharing this data.

You sound great and from what I understand the voice keeps on getting better.

Did you need additional botox after the initial injections? It sounds painful.

I have not had voice surgery but am being treated for what in lay terms is "bowed" vocal cords which means I cannot belt like I once did. I got scoped by an otolaryngologist and it confirmed what Yeson picked up(!!) from the mp3 I sent him. My otolaryngologist suggested gel injections around the vocal cords. The scope was totally non-painful but was kinda weird to have a relatively narrow tube inserted through my nostril. The gel is absorbed by the body over 2 to 3 months, so it is temporary so the vocal cords get support during vocal "physical therapy." I am wondering if this is something I should do? The doctor is standing by, but my speech person thinks I can heal without the injections. She also thinks I don't need vfs. But try and tell me that!

Jennie wrote on her youtube blog that she could do an acceptably high voice prior to Yeson but as I recall, she said she got stage fright, so to speak--pun fully intended, when she spoke with others. She said the Yeson surgery prevented her from falling into the low range. She, too, had an excellent result.

Again, thank you for the trove of information!

Hi! :)

The botox didn't hurt, really.  At least no more than it does if you have it anywhere else... I've not had to have any more injections as Dr. Kim doesn't think I need them.  He also never had me take the clonazepam, so guess I got lucky!

Hi Denjin

Did u get any withdrawal symptoms following cessation of Clonazepam?

Thanks

Quote from: Ritana on October 25, 2016, 03:53:58 PM
Hi Denjin

Did u get any withdrawal symptoms following cessation of Clonazepam?

Thanks

Hi. :) He told me not to take it after every set of recordings I sent post surgery, including my six month one. Luckily...

I took the clonazepam for the full 3 months - and then after a break I had to get a refill for another 2 months. Each time I had to get off it, it was unpleasant. I took it slowly down over some weeks and still I had some increased anxiety, nervousness, dizzyness, weakness.

I believe I probably should take another round now as my voice now is rough again because I seem to abuse it too much with whatever I do while speaking - old habits again. But I will not do this again - better not send a recording to Dr Kim regarding this. I may get another round of voice therapy for it maybe - the pills are just there to make it temporarily easier - in the end the brain will have to learn how to use the muscles properly .

I am cutting down on clonazopam very slowly but I',m still experiencing severe anxiety, tiredness and dizziness. I doubt I will ever take it again in the future.

I don't understand why he has some people take it.  Did either of you have specific complaints after surgery that you let him know about?  Or, did he say to take the pills after hearing your recordings?

I still use my voice wrong (really need to find a voice therapist I can actually visit where I live) I think and I can feel some stress in my throat.  Still, I'd not want to take pills to sort it out...

I sent recordings about monthly and he kept telling me I should continue. When they ran out he said I should start again because the tremor was still there. I think it probably still is there. I did a talk this week - 90 minutes - and my voice had vocal fry that I could not get rid of, afterwards my voice was strained a lot for a day. I did this last year at about the same time and I did not have those issues so much. I still could blame it on the fact that it was just 9 months post op. Now I think it is mainly that I do not use my voice properly, something that worked during therapy but I have a hard time to transfer it to daily life or to such events wher eI have to speak very loudly.

I see.  Yeah, sounds like the situation is different.  I have some weird stressed-out feeling, but it is not all the time.  However, I do still have a tremor although I can't ell if it is any worse than before surgery.  No vocal fry or anything... 

This was their response to my last mail (which had the recording a few posts above):

Quote
You don't seem to need further medications but focus more on the resonance training.

Not sure why it says 'further' as I never took any at all... but I get the resonance comment every time.

I hope you get better!

It was the end of the work day and my voice felt a bit tired.  So, I was asking a girl if my voice was too quiet and she said it was fine and she had no problems hearing me.  She said my voice was 'husky', though.  I think that's a resonance thing?  I mean, I passed fine before and after my voice surgery.  However, I think I still haven't sorted out my resonance since I had the surgery. :( The old way just makes my voice higher or something.

Husky means you probably loose too much air when speaking. You may have a glottal gap that is not closing properly. This could come from using your old phonation patterns. The thing is - the way we used our voices before the surgey does not exactly work anymore. The trained modifications to change resonance or pitch do not work properly and can distort the new voice or make it less good, actually. Speaking in the old pitch also does not properly work.
One needs to find a new way. I think a good way is to somehow learn to relax about the voice. Talk softly, not trying to argue or to be loud - just very softly, relaxed and calm and see what happens. In my case the pitch is quite high then - around 190-200 probably - and the resonance is actually quite ok - but it breaks down if I force the voice using old patterns - I am still learning, but there are ways to make the voice louder that do not need force - basically staying relaxed but using more air which requires better breathing (abdominal breathing) - and not be afraid of using more air - more air means actually that there will be less air that is lost  its a bit of a paradox but has to do with aerodynamics. What I cannot control yet is if I am in an argument, discussion or try to be decisive or basically explaining someone what I need or what s/he has to do, then my voice is forced and gets lower and not as good resonance...

Anjaq,

You had your surgery over a yeae and a half- if I remember well, and you still need to tale medication to control your voice breaking issues??? Vfs is never to be talen lightheartedly!

I went to see a new voice theeapist yesterday because i'm told I sound older on the phone. I'm 29actually. The vouce therapist was surprised when she saw me. She said she thought i was a lady in my mid fourties (arghhhh)


Anyway, she said my voice timber is definitely a female one, and that I definitely sound female but my voice is a little raspy and broken....

Anyway, i'm about to.start a round of sessions with her. I feel. A little hopeless actually. 10 months after surgeey and i still cant speak with a clear voice.

No, I do not take any medication anymore. I took it during months 4-7 and 9-11 post OP. I did about 30 sessions of voice rehab in that time as well. My voice can be good now, I just have to break some old habits in some situations - I do have a bit more phlegm when it comes to the cold season - I always had that, but now it seems to somewhat affect my voice a bit more so I clear my throat more often before I speak. But its not a big change. I always have a runny nose and phlegm when it is below 10°C. When I am relaxed and do what we did in the rehab sessions, my voice is good - I never got misgendered because of it (an not mis-aged either).

You mentioned that your vouce started to break again, and that this is why you're considering going back on Clonazepam. That's why i said you're having to be on medication even after a year and a half post vfs.

In my case, I had two surgeries in one. The first was to trear vocal cords scarring. The second one was vfs. This is why my voice is still breaking. When voice breaks-it usually results in an.older voice.. Dr Remacle said, when i visited him about four months ago, that inflammation will usually subside a year post surgery. Fingers crossed!

To be honest, I'd rather have an.older woman's voice then have a high piched male male voice. That is why i don't regret vfs.

Quote from: Ritana on November 06, 2016, 11:58:43 PM
You mentioned that your vouce started to break again, and that this is why you're considering going back on Clonazepam. That's why i said you're having to be on medication even after a year and a half post vfs.

Ah - no, I am not taking it. I may have felt frustrated sometimes, but usually if I stay calm and focus on relaxing my voice, it is really good nowadays. Its just old habits and lazyness that sometimes make trouble

I got you.

So the key is to stay calm and speak with relaxed vocal cords?

Quote from: Ritana on November 07, 2016, 05:30:53 PM
I got you.

So the key is to stay calm and speak with relaxed vocal cords?

Staying calm ist good. The key is to find the place where the vocal chords are relaxed and work best. Hint: Its not when you totally relax them so you get vocal fry and it is not the same way as it was before the surgery when you tried to relax it by just going low.
I still sometimes loose it - am not sure when my vocal chords are at the optimum or when I let them too loose (then they basically are foced to produce lower sounds and flapa round like a loose sail on a sailing boat) or when I make them too tight (which means forcing the pitch up instead, like putting a lot of tension on that sail on the boat)

Quote from: anjaq on November 03, 2016, 02:45:05 PM
Husky means you probably loose too much air when speaking. You may have a glottal gap that is not closing properly. This could come from using your old phonation patterns. The thing is - the way we used our voices before the surgey does not exactly work anymore. The trained modifications to change resonance or pitch do not work properly and can distort the new voice or make it less good, actually. Speaking in the old pitch also does not properly work.
One needs to find a new way. I think a good way is to somehow learn to relax about the voice. Talk softly, not trying to argue or to be loud - just very softly, relaxed and calm and see what happens. In my case the pitch is quite high then - around 190-200 probably - and the resonance is actually quite ok - but it breaks down if I force the voice using old patterns - I am still learning, but there are ways to make the voice louder that do not need force - basically staying relaxed but using more air which requires better breathing (abdominal breathing) - and not be afraid of using more air - more air means actually that there will be less air that is lost  its a bit of a paradox but has to do with aerodynamics. What I cannot control yet is if I am in an argument, discussion or try to be decisive or basically explaining someone what I need or what s/he has to do, then my voice is forced and gets lower and not as good resonance...

Thanks, Anja.  I guess I still don't have it figured out.  Sometimes it all seems normal and then I'll be speaking in the old pattern and my throat feels all tight and doesn't sound right.  My pitch is pretty good no matter what, at 225Hz most of the time, at least.

Yeah same here - sometimes it is good and sometimes old patterns come up. I feel however that things improve with time - lots of time - lol - I guess people who are singers  or liked to do voices have it easier

But now, usually it is good most of the time and the times it does not work right are the exception.

Also - even if it is not so good, I still do not get misgendered at that moment, so this gives me confidence

Glad it's working out, Anja. :)

I do need to find a voice coach or something, but I'm generally quite happy with it all.  I went from 160 to 220 or so, which seems good.  Just need to refine a few things since I have so much presentation speaking!

220 is neat! I only have 180, but so be it - sometimes it is 200 or 220. I think probably my voice even works better at 200 or 220, but it tends to fall lower.

Quote from: anjaq on November 11, 2016, 05:03:27 AM
220 is neat! I only have 180, but so be it - sometimes it is 200 or 220. I think probably my voice even works better at 200 or 220, but it tends to fall lower.

It is all quite different now.  Is there some reason my voice would be more different at 7  months than it was at 5 months?  I thought all the healing happened early on? Today I tried to do some fake low voice, but on the recording the Hz was exactly the same just the resonance was wrong.  I don't really know how to talk low any  more unless I try and do darth vader or something. My lowest possible voice where I try and literally sound like darth vader is 178Hz now. :o

Wow thats fantastic - so your development does work :) - And yes - it is not a joke when Dr Kim says it takes 12 months to adapt to the new voice and reach the final result. I think it is actually even longer - I notice things after 20 months that are still changing.

I envy you a bit for not going below 178 though - if I really try a low voice, it can be at 140 Hz or even 130 - luckily it seems to be perceived by most to be a fake low voice

Thanks for pointing me to your thread.  It is very encouraging to read about your experiences.

I just need to wait until the new year now.  Thanks Denjin!!  :)

-Sarah

It's been just over nine months now. Any recordings that would be of use to anyone? Any i use from this point on will not be online for very long, though.

Not much change in ages, but I do need to find a voice coach as I still don't really get how to use my voice properly (compared to how I spoke before).

Are there any good online resources about resonance?  I saw a few and the descriptions are fairly facile and at a cursory glance I don't seem to be doing it too poorly.  However, my resonance is still not great.  My old, pre-surgery, way of modifying my resonance makes my voice sound better but the average Hz gets up to about 240 which is too high and not  where I want to be.

What are you currently doing to practice?  I am curious since I am just over 30 days out from going to Yeson.  I would love to hear more about what you have been doing post vfs to train your voice.  Thx

-Sarah

Hi, Sarah.  Good luck!  Not long now! :D

Yeson gives you some exercises to do.  I think they are buried in this thread somewhere, but if not I can dig them out again.  I know I have posted them in the forum at some time for others...  Basically they seem like the lessons singers are given.  You hold a tone, then go up and down in range, and do scales.  Then a couple of resonance ones - nothing particularly 'trans' focused, though.

My problem is the method I used for resonance before surgery was combined with raising my pitch and I don't know how to separate the two parts.

For example, here is the latest that I sent to Yeson for my 9 months post.  They said my fundamental frequency is 228Hz.  However, I think my resonance is worse than my pre-surgery voice...granted I was trying quite hard on that one. :)

Rainbow passage - 9 Months
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0eD1rS4mxwy

Fortunately I am no stranger to vocal exercises thanks to my singing background.  I am hoping that comes in handy.

Thanks again.  30 more days...

Hi :)

It's been a year now...crazy how time flies.

My before rainbow passage recording
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0LtnLUNRO6r

One year recording sent to Yeson
http://vocaroo.com/i/s12Wj6B3E1jm

I still don't have resonance back quite how it should be since I need to find a new voice trainer. But, I'm pretty happy overall! The before recording was me trying a bit, it definitely wasn't my 'normal' Hz.

Sounding really good there. :)

I am 4 days away from the 2 month mark.  My next door neighbor mentioned that she can hear a difference.  I am often not sure how much they want to sound encouraging, but she shounded genuine the other even  when we chatted over the fence.  I hope you are happy with your results Denjin :)

Huggs,
Sarah

Quote from: Inarasarah on April 04, 2017, 09:26:13 AM
Sounding really good there. :)

I am 4 days away from the 2 month mark.  My next door neighbor mentioned that she can hear a difference.  I am often not sure how much they want to sound encouraging, but she shounded genuine the other even  when we chatted over the fence.  I hope you are happy with your results Denjin :)

Huggs,
Sarah

2 months is SOO early, don't worry! I had a pretty good voice before (passed without question), but I still spoke with someone who hadn't seen me in 2 years the other day and was told I sounded totally different and had to make up some explanation.

You are very right, 2 months is way early.  I can hear some difference, but I am even waiting to do recordings until the end of the week.  I am able to have short conversations and meetings provided I have lots of water to drink :)