Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I never dressed up as a female until post srs and just jumped into the full female life after my surgery. It's been wonderful and a very easy transition. This is contrary to all those who try and impose the RLE before srs. 

For me I was always going to have my srs and live my dream and be true to myself and to others. This ment for me not to live as full female before my surgeries. This was my being true to mysrlf and not to continue living a lie.

I believe that I have had an amazing transition ...maybe because I now live in Bangkok. I attend and have fully adapted myself by attending Thai language class, social functions, dinner parties, clubbing , yoga, gym, swimming , golf etc. All seems to be normal for me...I believe had I been forced to have RLE that I may have not adapted so easily ....I needed to feel secure ...I am an example that RLE is not necessary.

Mod Edit- posted edited to avoid invalidating those that live as their authentic self prior to or without SRS. TOS 9

I'm glad you're happy, and interested to see how well taking a route that is not too common has worked well for you.

Congratulations  :)


Is your social role much different than you expected ?

Like being a bit more passive now ... etc ?


It can also be an advantage, leading people emotionally ...


hugs

I'm a huge fan of setting your own course.  :)

I'm just curious if you went through a therapist? I'm not a believer in mandatory therapy for people who know what they want, but as we know, it is pushed, especially to people who are using insurance to obtain hormones and surgeries. Naturally, skip that question if it's too personal. Here's an easier one. Who do you got in the World Series this year?  :laugh:

Hugs, Devlyn

I agree. Too much is made of this RLE stuff. Once our bodies are correct it's so much easier to just live a normal life. I know for myself it would be so easy.......Having any unwanted body part around would bother any woman. Great for you girl friend. Thanks for your post.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 07, 2016, 08:12:30 AM
I'm a huge fan of setting your own course.  :)

I'm just curious if you went through a therapist? I'm not a believer in mandatory therapy for people who know what they want, but as we know, it is pushed, especially to people who are using insurance to obtain hormones and surgeries. Naturally, skip that question if it's too personal. Here's an easier one. Who do you got in the World Series this year?  :laugh:

Hugs, Devlyn

I saw a therapist for 8 years.  We had this issue as he felt before srs that I should at least live 1 month as a female in Bangkok.  But he backed down ...we had many disagreements and he was right most of the time ...this subject however I knew he was wrong ..

Dr Bushong was such a sweetheart ...was really worried I would have post op depression after 3 or 4 weeks.. I never did.

I'm living my dream ....every night since I can remember i dreamed I was a female ...and now it's come true.....

Quote from: Laura_7 on May 07, 2016, 07:40:50 AM
Congratulations  :)


Is your social role much different than you expected ?

Like being a bit more passive now ... etc ?


It can also be an advantage, leading people emotionally ...


hugs

I am just myself with hormones giving me a different perspective of the world. .I don't make a great effort to be feminine but let it happen naturally. This includes great empathy and less agressive. .. I am proud to be Trans ...I tell the new friends ...including the males that hit on me..

I had this big secret of being Trans for so long and now I'm liberated ....I don't want to hide a new secret and live in stealth.

I'm a powerful personality and am an Alpha male...it come thru clearly in my behavior.

Quote from: warlockmaker on May 07, 2016, 09:07:52 AM
I'm a powerful personality and am an Alpha male...

Feminine Alpha male?  ???

Quote from: warlockmaker on May 07, 2016, 09:07:52 AM
I am just myself with hormones giving me a different perspective of the world. .I don't make a great effort to be feminine but let it happen naturally. This includes great empathy and less agressive. .. I am proud to be Trans ...I tell the new friends ...including the males that hit on me..

I had this big secret of being Trans for so long and now I'm liberated ....I don't want to hide a new secret and live in stealth.

I'm a powerful personality and am an Alpha male...it come thru clearly in my behavior.

There are alpha females just as well so its no problem to mention imo ...
and there are switches who can switch between alpha and beta ...

I think female roles can be more varied, showing more emotion.
Wish you fun in trying out ;)

hugs

Thanks for posting this. Its good to have confirmation that there's other valid ways of doing things.

I have always believed this was a good idea and did a modified version of the RLE in that I went the year prior to surgery androgynous. My mother told me that I could easily pass as male or female my entire life so that made things easy and my therapist was in agreement with this too.

On the flip-side there are some who know they are going to transition need time to acclimate to the gender they are transitioning too yet that should not mean a full year is truly needed.

There should be flexibilities with patients and therapist that the therapist can dictate say 12 months for one person, several months for another and another zero time for RLE.

Everyone is different and with that the standard rule should not apply to each person who will have surgery and transition. 

Hi There

Thank you so much for posting this I thought I was the only one who was doing this.

This is my plan also.
Due to my work situation RLE would be very difficult so I have a finance plan in place to retire in 3 years.
This would give my family who I am telling shortly time to adjust.

Have discussed a transition pave way with my therapist who is in agreement.
Started laser hair removal last year.
Changing to a trans friendly GP shortly then HRT and in 3 years time have  FFS BA SRS.
I will come home fully as the true ME.

Kiwi

I'm sure Roberta Cowell didn't live in role til after surgery in the early 50s

I guess i'm the weird one here for I believe in rle for transitioning. It would be easy for me to go rle for I already have a feminine body but I've gotten used to be rle in both male or female roles for I live in both world's.

It's ok for those who want RLE but to force it on a person, of age, to do RLE,  is cruel and takes away our rights as human beings.

I also feel that forcing a person who feels uncomfortable in dressing up as a female when they feel they are not physically ready in appearance is barbaric.

Look at me today...I'm a happy female , I could not image the ridicule I would have received dressed up as a female when I looked and felt physically as a man.

Quote from: warlockmaker on June 02, 2016, 11:52:14 PM
It's ok for those who want RLE but to force it on a person, of age, to do RLE,  is cruel and takes away our rights as human beings.

I also feel that forcing a person who feels uncomfortable in dressing up as a female when they feel they are not physically ready in appearance is barbaric.

Look at me today...I'm a happy female , I could not image the ridicule I would have received dressed up as a female when I looked and felt physically as a man.

I wholeheartedly agree! I think I will transition in a very similar fashion to you. RLE for me right now would mean most likely losing my job and having an uncomfortable time at university. I'll do it in my own time.

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on June 03, 2016, 01:01:39 AM
I wholeheartedly agree! I think I will transition in a very similar fashion to you. RLE for me right now would mean most likely losing my job and having an uncomfortable time at university. I'll do it in my own time.

To take it a step further, I'm all for doing SRS first and RLE some years later. If ever. I got enough problems without social transtion making it all worse.

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 03, 2016, 02:01:50 AM
To take it a step further, I'm all for doing SRS first and RLE some years later. If ever. I got enough problems without social transtion making it all worse.

If ever? You don't want to present in your true gender ever?

But further on that point .. I don't want to be tucking everyday, I'm very much for the finish all surgeries (bar maybe breast augmentation?) and then RLE approach. Everyone has their own journey, but this is what works for us it seems. :)

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on June 03, 2016, 04:17:20 AM
You don't want to present in your true gender ever?

Want to, yes. Will do, not so sure.

I'm all for you gal. I never went to ta therapist. I simply did what I had to do........ So yes more power to you...

I'm one who's done RLE.

Having said that when Parliament had its Equalities Commission I submitted that RLE is an ideal where we're 100% safe & in a nurturing learning environment.

Reality is radically different. Putting ourselves out there pre-FFS, pre-HRT etc is plain dangerous & immoral.

I have learned a lot sure ... Like how to pass into "stealth" as quickly as possible to avoid discrimination in employment etc but does this mean RLE should be the norm?

Absolutely not.

If you're transsexual, confident of the diagnosis then the timing should be when it's safe to do so not when some cisgender medical bureaucrat says "Yep you're transsexual enough I'll deign to permit you to partake of my hormones and surgery."

Frankly the NHS has been so diabolical, I've gone 100% private & paid thousands. Worth every penny to be cured now not who knows when ... if I'd be alive to.enjoy it that is.

With all Kindnesses
Victoria xx

I'm of the view is as long as your happy and your not hurting someone else that's all that matters. I understand RLE isn't for everyone and isn't easy. But honestly I look back on the last several years of my life as a period of growth and discovery for me. It hasn't been easy at all I'll admit but I don't regret it whatsoever. It honestly made me stronger than I ever expected. I'm not going to make a statement that everyone should do things the way I do them because it worked for me.
Everyone is different and transition in the end isn't about how you look on the outside but how you feel about yourself on the inside. But really though for me it would have been harder for me to wait till after surgery than it was to just jump into it and start living as myself.  :)

OP: Not wanting to invalidate your decision, let me contrast how I think transition goes for me.

I feel I've been learning to be a more socially  femme version of my self for a couple of decades, slow but surely easing into characteristically feminine styles of communication. It's not that I want to be rigid about gender roles, rather I'm extremely uncomfortable  around 'male' ways of thinking and commutating and that is probably an equal motivation to a desire for a feminine body.

Also, its what I actually have some control of. There is no practical path for me to pass as femme. Also I would be mortified to find myself being the stereotypical post-op female who is easily clocked by cis-gender women between the habits of male privilege and communication style.

Now that I've decided to transition physically, I'm working more on physical mannerisms, posture etc.

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on June 03, 2016, 04:17:20 AM
If ever? You don't want to present in your true gender ever?

But further on that point .. I don't want to be tucking everyday, I'm very much for the finish all surgeries (bar maybe breast augmentation?) and then RLE approach. Everyone has their own journey, but this is what works for us it seems. :)

At this point it seems I'll be approved for surgery with an RLE that will consist of being passing as male with feminine leanings.

I couldn't bear being regularly taken for a 'guy in a dress', nor would I be happy about passing in the best incarnation I can imagine -- a 'handsome woman'. I'm sure in addition to vanity being motivated by that being a fair description of my abusive female parent.

So like the discipline of enforced RLE? I don't; recognize it as having value for evolving to my true gender? I do.

Quote from: SadieBlake on June 05, 2016, 05:42:57 PMSo like the discipline of enforced RLE? I don't; recognize it as having value for evolving to my true gender? I do.

Everyone's journey is unique and none of them are the same. I am already feminine in pretty much every way. So for me, I don't need RLE to develop that. It's already there.
P.S. I had to re-read your post to make sure I understood it. By "female parent" do you mean mother?

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on June 05, 2016, 07:29:50 PM
Everyone's journey is unique and none of them are the same. I am already feminine in pretty much every way. So for me, I don't need RLE to develop that. It's already there.
P.S. I had to re-read your post to make sure I understood it. By "female parent" do you mean mother?

Yes that would be a word you could use, I can no longer put that word in the same sentence as abusive.

Of course I'm conflicted in desiring to be more passably feminine and yet grateful for my physical strength and size which I need to maintain to continue in my artwork which is about large sculpture in blown glass and steel. (Not that there aren't amazing female artists who make big glass, there are however at some point if you don't have the sheer size then you have to have others lifting the work).

You had FFS, BA, and GCS done at PAI, yes? Do you mind if I message you?

RLE was intended to give the person a chance to see if transition is right for them. While you had no issues Warlockmaker, others may; SRS and Transition isn't for everyone. I think the deciding factor should always be if you have any doubts at all, then you may want to consider doing the RLE before SRS.  My public transition began a full a year before surgery, and so far I not regretted doing so!

Susan, you are absolutely right. However, I feel that if you are over 40 and are sure this is what you want I feel that RLE should be up to the person. I do feel that for younger transitioners who have not had enough life experience that RLE would be good. One major factor to consider is the ability to have children. And of course are you absolutely sure of this non reversable surgery.

In Thailand the age is considered. If you are under 30 they tend to be more difficult. The interview for the letter is intensive. So the young TGs here normally take HRT and focus on FFS surgery first, then BA then Hip implants. SRS tends to be the final step. This normally takes years.

Hi Wynternight, please message me if you need mote info.

Quote from: warlockmaker on November 26, 2016, 01:16:43 AM
In Thailand the age is considered. If you are under 30 they tend to be more difficult. The interview for the letter is intensive. So the young TGs here normally take HRT and focus on FFS surgery first, then BA then Hip implants. SRS tends to be the final step. This normally takes years.

Does this mean for someone my age with no RLE, that they might not consider offering me FFS and SRS (and BA) at the same time, like they did for yourself?

please send me a pm.
Bobbie (warlockmaker)

Quote from: warlockmaker on May 07, 2016, 05:17:17 AM
I never dressed up as a female until post srs and just jumped into the full female life after my surgery. It's been wonderful and a very easy transition. This is contrary to all those who try and impose the RLE before srs. 

For me I was always going to have my srs and live my dream and be true to myself and to others. This ment for me not to live as full female before my surgeries. This was my being true to mysrlf and not to continue living a lie.

I believe that I have had an amazing transition ...maybe because I now live in Bangkok. I attend and have fully adapted myself by attending Thai language class, social functions, dinner parties, clubbing , yoga, gym, swimming , golf etc. All seems to be normal for me...I believe had I been forced to have RLE that I may have not adapted so easily ....I needed to feel secure ...I am an example that RLE is not necessary.

Mod Edit- posted edited to avoid invalidating those that live as their authentic self prior to or without SRS. TOS 9

Hi Warlockmaker

I just wanted to say Chan Ruk Thur

I got my hormone referral by asking for it - after I'd fulfilled the legal requirement in my State. 3 months of therapy.. Then in a follow up session some time later, I was advised that my surgery letter was written and in my file for when I might want it..

No forced RLE involved anywhere in the process.. Not a day. After starting hormones I just kinda slowly morphed in to being full time and never looked back. Worked just fine for me.

I see that some may invalidate my identity because of my circumstances, that's fine, that just gives me equal rights to believe that some bitter, small minded people exist in the trans community.

Quote from: warlockmaker on June 02, 2016, 11:52:14 PM
It's ok for those who want RLE but to force it on a person, of age, to do RLE,  is cruel and takes away our rights as human beings.

I also feel that forcing a person who feels uncomfortable in dressing up as a female when they feel they are not physically ready in appearance is barbaric.

Look at me today...I'm a happy female , I could not image the ridicule I would have received dressed up as a female when I looked and felt physically as a man.

Hi,

I cannot agree more! This is one of the reasons I would never consider any change until all work had been done.

You must be enjoying the beautiful food in Bangkok! I just love the spicy food and so cheap.

Riki

@Warlockmaker  Your story is amazing, and I agree with you.

Sounds like you can rock either gender!

Yeah, I love Thailand, but I'm not a conventional gender in any way.

I live in a southern town near the Malayan border, near the beach, live a Thai lifestyle, go months at a time without even seeing other Caucasians, think a lot in Thai. I eat Thai food, bought in open Thai markets, drive a motorbike as the Thai do, teach ESL to Thai children at schools on the beach, make little attempt to hang with expats, who seem, for the most part, to behave and live the lifestyle they had in their own countries.

Since I was raised abroad, I never felt like I fit in while living the USA. I now attribute this sense of not belonging to not only being a Third Culture Kid (I speak, read, and write five languages, but not all languages very well in all areas), but being partial transmale..neither male nor female.
It's like I don't exactly fit in anywhere, either culture-wise or gender-wise.

But I do love living in Thailand, where people are usually allowed to express their gender identities as they see fit.

I also love the weather, the food, etc.
I love swimming in the ocean since I live a six minute motorbike drive from the beach, or photographing wild birds and animals in the mountains and swamps.

Me, swimming at Samila Beach, where I'm heading as soon as I finish writing this.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv203%2FRachelbirder%2F1-9-7-16%2520Bankanoon%2520pics%2520034.jpg&hash=0d8e25798c468c94455178024acc361decde50f7)

Tiny male Brown-throated Sunbird, photographed two blocks from my apartment building, by the swamp

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv203%2FRachelbirder%2F12-17-15%2520male%2520Brown-throated%2520Sunbird%25205.5%2520inches%2520swamp%2520mdash%2520with%2520Jerielle%2520Hanlon%2520in%2520Songkhla%2520Thailand..jpg&hash=3d56cfbc53207d2d4143c5a3ade624fbb54e5a35)

It's funny that this is something out of the norm because it is exactly how I feel. I've been on hormones for almost 11 months and have set up an initial consult for an orchiectomy so I can I have it done as soon as possible after I hit my year mark, but I have no intention of living the RLE simply to prove to my insurance company that I am serious about my transition.

For me (and I did laser on my beard and am hitting the rest with electrolysis) I feel so much worse about myself when I force myself into what I know is my eventual destiny, but can end up feeling sad and disappointed that I'm not further along and that I'm not as pretty as I want. Those are the only times I actually want to give up. I mean there are times I love going as as the female that I am and I feel super cute but when I'm not feeling that I can't handle the feeling of being in a fishbowl. I fully intend to have gcs but the orctiectomy is what I am able to do now. This is a long, rambly comment but I believe my RLE will begin and be so beneficial once my outsides more closely align with my insides. (Not like my organs or intestines but my heart and soul....rambly)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Briezy on December 28, 2016, 10:39:39 PM
It's funny that this is something out of the norm because it is exactly how I feel. I've been on hormones for almost 11 months and have set up an initial consult for an orchiectomy so I can I have it done as soon as possible after I hit my year mark, but I have no intention of living the RLE simply to prove to my insurance company that I am serious about my transition.

For me (and I did laser on my beard and am hitting the rest with electrolysis) I feel so much worse about myself when I force myself into what I know is my eventual destiny, but can end up feeling sad and disappointed that I'm not further along and that I'm not as pretty as I want. Those are the only times I actually want to give up. I mean there are times I love going as as the female that I am and I feel super cute but when I'm not feeling that I can't handle the feeling of being in a fishbowl. I fully intend to have gcs but the orctiectomy is what I am able to do now. This is a long, rambly comment but I believe my RLE will begin and be so beneficial once my outsides more closely align with my insides. (Not like my organs or intestines but my heart and soul....rambly)

Hi Briezy,

I don't think it is as rare as we would expect. With easier access to HRT many people are able to address their dysphoria but won't necessarily go all out until they are ready for many reasons. I have heard that the orchiectomy can leave less skin for the GRS/SRS later, so if you can hold off on that until then it might be better. Depends if you are ok with the Spriro?

Riki

I do think any form of RLE should never be required until the person has had 3-6 months of HRT at a minimum and possibly longer.

Hi Raell, Saw some of your earlier posts that you live in S Thailand. I still have a substantial villa in Phuket where my daughter and wife live, there is a top notch school there.. My wife is not Thai. I opted to live in a city. Lived in big cities my whole life and feel comfortable living in Bangkok. Maybe when I'm 80 I will move back to Phuket for the quiter beach life.

Love my new life and look forward to each amazing  day. I now speak and write Thai so I get immersed into their culture.

You go Girl!

Yeah, I can't stand Bangkok, though; too crowded for me. However, I took a van to Bangkok every few months when I lived in Lopburi in 2011, to buy CD TV series from the big video store in FutureMall.
Now I just watch Netflix.

I have never been to Phuket because of the reputation of high prices and operators being accused of bilking tourists. Instead, when I lived in Nakhon sri Thammarat, I'd visit the much cheaper and quieter Ao Nung, near Krabi, on weekends, across the bay from Phuket, where I could rent a beach bungalow for $10 a night, or take a diving boat boat to Mu Ko Similan
But I doubt it's that cheap now. I went last year with my daughter, but since I now live so close to Samila Beach I just go there where I want a swim.

Me at Mu Ko Similan National Marine Park in 2013
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv203%2FRachelbirder%2Frachel%2520coming%2520out%2520of%2520water.jpg&hash=fc41d2ff9ddb3da1e8a8de2ad3bfd8b3f1c4c725)

Quote from: warlockmaker on June 02, 2016, 11:52:14 PM
It's ok for those who want RLE but to force it on a person, of age, to do RLE,  is cruel and takes away our rights as human beings.

I also feel that forcing a person who feels uncomfortable in dressing up as a female when they feel they are not physically ready in appearance is barbaric.

Look at me today...I'm a happy female , I could not image the ridicule I would have received dressed up as a female when I looked and felt physically as a man.

I agree. But I also know that everybody has a different place they start from, a different route along the way, different intended results. But ultimately, the results of our efforts may or may nor equate with our earlier dreams or imaginings..

I put off RLE because I was trying to appease the then love of my life. But HRT had changed me so much as I tarried over a year, that I was being gendered female without electro while still in boy clothes. So, RLE, though technically not needed, cuz I am xx intersex, was really just the first year of doing that which was already happening, but in female attire and makeup and with self-permission to behave in a feminine fashion. Had I tried it before HRT had made it moot, it would have caused me great distress, I am quite sure. So. yeah, I see where you are coming from...

I am a huge fan of self-determination, but I always knew I was a girl. Others that are less sure of their gender-center, may very well need a time to face life in the other role to gain a firmer understanding of what they should prioritize. I believe that the SOC 7.0 is a very well-concieved, well-intentioned document, and now that 'informed consent' is so widely practiced, there is a better balance in the field.

Many have lesser pronounce gender longings than you and I. RLE is a way to help these people avoid a mistake of over-zealousness. The pressure to transition is intense in the trans community. It is easy to imagine somebody being swept up by it without understanding themselves well enough to have clarity or certainty, especially when very young. As older transitioners, we have the advantage of a long history of distress pre-anything.

I am glad you did it your way, and it went as planned. Congratulations on a job well done!

Missy

Although I can see the point and purpose of RLE, part of me thinks that insisting on it prior to starting medication or any other type of transitionary work on the body is like sending a recruit to the front line in order to train as a soldier.

Thailand is a pretty easy place in which to transition, although less so I found amongst the beer-swilling Aussie types who prop up the beach bars down south.

I was challenged by my GIC not to live in Thailand. They suggested to me that it's a cop out in my case and that I needed to square up my transition in my homeland amongst my friends, family and work. It was a surprising message to hear from them but I think I did need to take it on board. Having said that, I love Thailand and apart from the heat in March and April, could easily live in Bangkok.

If I didn't have certain obligations I'd be transitioning in Thailand right now.

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on January 27, 2017, 12:52:18 PM
Although I can see the point and purpose of RLE, part of me thinks that insisting on it prior to starting medication or any other type of transitionary work on the body is like sending a recruit to the front line in order to train as a soldier.

Rachel,

Is there actually a country where one has to do RLE pre-HRT?

I have never heard of this, but maybe I am just ill-informed...

And, where on earth do gender therapists insist on RLE without "any other type of transitionary work"??

Gender therapy IS a kind of transitionary work, as is work on voice, demeanor, clothing, etc..

That sounds like malpractice by definition.

Is it possible I am misreading your statements?

Missy

Quote from: MissGendered on January 27, 2017, 01:58:49 PM
Is there actually a country where one has to do RLE pre-HRT?

There's been changes recently so not sure what's current, but the UK and a lot of Europe.

Quote from: AnonyMs on January 27, 2017, 02:03:32 PM
There's been changes recently so not sure what's current, but the UK and a lot of Europe.

That would definitely suck. Hopefully such things have changed, I would have been miserable going that route, for sure, omg!!

Quote from: MissGendered on January 27, 2017, 01:58:49 PM
Rachel,

Is there actually a country where one has to do RLE pre-HRT?

Is it possible I am misreading your comments

Missy

Hi - it's a requirement in the UK that you demonstrate RLE. HRT is only offered after 3 consultations. That can mean 12-24 months later.

best,

Rachel
x

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on January 27, 2017, 03:41:23 PM
Hi - it's a requirement in the UK that you demonstrate RLE. HRT is only offered after 3 consultations. That can mean 12-24 months later.

best,

Rachel
x

Really? That's not what I read in the most recent NHS treatment guidelines..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 27, 2017, 04:25:30 PM
Really? That's not what I read in the most recent NHS treatment guidelines..

My impression is that it changed recently, but some doctors still ask for it. Not really sure since I don't live there.

Having recently been through this, the guidelines are not yet policy: or certainly haven't been for me through 2016. I wasn't prescribed meds until last autumn, nearly a year after my first consultation and two years from RLE.

Hi Rachael, You know how I feel about RLE, I'm utterly  schocked that you have to do RLE before NHS offers HRT. Its barbaric. Forcing a person to do RLE after statting HRT is bad enough but before is just plain cruel.

I agree my lovely Bobbie. It's awful.

There are still a lot of things about transitioning in the UK that are draconian: RLE is one, acquiring gender recognition through a 'panel' who examine your credentials is another. There is also huge prejudice still here.

Living in Thailand having transitioned is soooooooo much easier.

May I play devils advocate for a sec?
Following a few sessions of intense therapy, I started RLE. After a few months my therapist recommended HRT. At the time I was 43, low dose E to wart and spiro. The impact in that first year was minimal at best.
So I guess I'm asking, does it matter much if one is on HRT immediately?
I know my therapist, she said many people would see her wanting hormones right away thinking someone it was a magical transformation via meds. She wanted, or hoped that if you can live RLE in today's world for a few months, then it showed how serious you were.

Again, just playing devils advocate.

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on January 27, 2017, 03:41:23 PM
Hi - it's a requirement in the UK that you demonstrate RLE. HRT is only offered after 3 consultations. That can mean 12-24 months later.

As for Spain, my psychologist asked me to bring a friend of mine on the next visit. I believe my friend is going to be asked about the extent of my RLE. Been seeing the psycho for 7 months now (3 visits), and no HRT yet. So while the guidelines may say that RLE is not a requirement, my real life experience :) seems to indicate that you need RLE in order to get hormones.

I'm going to echo Nina, I strive first and always to be a healthy human being and for me my most healthy place is feminine. Masculine gender roles never felt comfortable and while it's impractical for me to physically pass as female, I've been moving toward "passing" emotionally and socially for nearly two decades. For the purposes of RLE and probably for the rest of my life ill be presenting as non-binary.

That time has been important to me. I find it as dysphoric to be around macho behavior and not surprisingly i also find trans women who clearly carry most or all of their male privilege into their experience to be trying.

I'm no more in favor of a gatekeeping RLE than anyone but my year of (formal, documented) RLE has been based on my gender role and experience so passing hasn't been a part of it.

My experience with both the WPATH SOC and with APA DSM is that they are like any other standards document, they always fall behind the state of the art. This is no different from engineering standards that lay out general practice but necessarily can not represent the state of the art.

The policy of my insurance company reads more like WPATH v6 than the current version and wrt RLE, included the troubling language "full year with no returning to prior gender role". However when I talk to them it's clear that they're following v7 and that passing or not is the client's choice.

My primary therapist doesn't specialize in gender and so she consulted with one who does. She, in turn was clear that WPATH is well behind current practice and that RLE consisting of living as non-binary is fine with me. She proceeded to do 3 evaluation sessions with me and wrote a referral letter that was 90% pro-forma. Just yesterday I had a meeting with my therapist and we talked about my decision and how RLE has been important to me as a validation of my very gradual transition process.

I think it's important to remember that RLE is in fact optional in the current WPATH. Of course i have the good fortune to live in an area that is generally accepting of trans people and there are practitioners to choose from.

In the Air Force you are not allowed to have a real life experience near the base unless an exception to policy waiver is granted before the gender marker in the system is changed. In theory you could have the surgery before they gender marker changes, but usually the marker is changed much sooner after legal documents such as passports and social security has been changed. Military transition is such a new venture that they are tweaking the policies as they go.

Bookmarking this thread for the future.

I was able to get a gender letter in Bangkok in 5 minutes.

I honestly don't think Bangkok is the land of gender acceptance one would think, I was chuckled at while I was at the mall by several groups of school kids wearing uniforms and while I was in the street in Sukhumvit and by the Rama Hotel
Since I have a big ego, I thought it was interesting and didn't get mad.

I live in North New Jersey in a mostly Republican County and nobody could give a ->-bleeped-<- how I am dressed.

As a side note the doctor informed me quite a few young Thai gurls get surgery because it makes them more desirable as prostitutes, since women get more money for their services 

Having read through all the many comments which makes it very clear that how one transitions varies greatly from one person to another. Everyone starts from a different place and with different circumstances: age, stature financial, etc.
The original rational for RLE was to determine whether one is actually a good candidate for transition including hrt/grs...or not. There seems to be a tendency to blow off RLE as a hurdle or just some Cis conspiracy to make it hard to transition. Having lurked around these forums for some time before joining l have been left with the distinct impression that there are a lot of people that transition  (including grs) who continue to suffer from gender dysphoria.
So maybe RLE is not such a bad idea. Having said that l managed the avoid the whole Wpath scenario. In "my day", what many here refer to as the Dark Ages, what is now referred to as GD or ->-bleeped-<-,  was seen as a serious psycho-sexual disconnect. Where the patient suffered from an overpowering belief that they were actually born the wrong sex. Since they could not change that belief, they attempted to change the body to conform with that belief. The challenge was to select those patients who might benefit from that approach. Nowadays it seems that anyone who wants it, or thinks they want it, should get it at taxpayers expense.

Quote from: warlockmaker on June 02, 2016, 11:52:14 PM
It's ok for those who want RLE but to force it on a person, of age, to do RLE,  is cruel and takes away our rights as human beings.

I disagree. 

I don't believe that the ability to self-direct complex medical care is among our fundamental rights.  I certainly think our input needs to be given heavy weight, and those who are philosophically opposed to transition should not be allowed to function as gatekeepers. 

That being said, I am a physician and I occasionally encounter individuals who press for irrational, potentially harmful tests and procedures based on a variety of factors which do not typically drive quality medical care:  obsession, poor education, confirmation bias, etc.

Please understand that I do not work in transgender care and do not have a dog in the fight in terms of acting as a medical gatekeeper.  I want patients to get the care they need and support their ability to obtain proven therapy with a minimum of hassle.  When it comes to transgender medicine though, the therapies which have been proven have specifically been proven under the precondition of adherence to the WPATH/Benjamin standards.  There is no evidence of which I am aware to suggest that transitional medicine/surgery outside of these guidelines is equally efficacious.

Rmaddy :Thank you for stating you are not a physician that works in TG care. I have been an advocate against RLE and advise my country office of the United Nations on TGs. Wapath has modified its RLE requirements and can be intrepreted as up to the medical caretaker.  It is cruel and barbaric to require RLE from a person of age. In my original post I did require therapy. Many are forced to dress up as a female looking still like a male, causing lack of confidence from ridicule and agression. This can scars them mentally. SRS is not the cure all for the mental health, many of TGs living in countries that have archaic laws have many other issues  mentally that face the general population. There is NO medical study that compares those with or without RLE as being better.

Complete: Yes those were the dark ages, dinasour age. I fully understand that many who HAD to do RLE want others to go thru it also, its just human nature.

Quote from: warlockmaker on September 08, 2017, 12:24:32 AM
Rmaddy :Thank you for stating you are not a physician that works in TG care. I have been an advocate against RLE and advise my country office of the United Nations on TGs. Wapath has modified its RLE requirements and can be intrepreted as up to the medical caretaker.  It is cruel and barbaric to require RLE from a person of age. In my original post I did require therapy. Many are forced to dress up as a female looking still like a male, causing lack of confidence from ridicule and agression. This can scars them mentally. SRS is not the cure all for the mental health, many of TGs living in countries that have archaic laws have many other issues  mentally that face the general population. There is NO medical study that compares those with or without RLE as being better.

Complete: Yes those were the dark ages, dinasour age. I fully understand that many who HAD to do RLE want others to go thru it also, its just human nature.

I don't think it is either cruel or barbaric, particularly since there is wide latitude to interpret what constitutes a successful real life test.  The RLE and stepwise progression is the best way to ensure that those who transition are likely to benefit from it.  Again, there is no good evidence to evaluate the efficacy of transition outside of the WPATH guidelines--they have been with us from very early on.

To your suggestion that because I had to do RLE, I want everyone else to do so, I suppose that there may be a kernel of truth to that, but let's turn that around.  Is it possible that because you didn't do a RLE you think that no one else should have to either?  Before you say, "Well it worked for me", please remember that I would say exactly the same thing, and the overwhelming load of gathered evidence that says that it works out for those who followed the guidelines.

I've watched your videos (nicely done!).  You are a charming free spirit who has the world by its tail and makes your own rules.  I totally get why having to follow someone else's guidelines might be odious to you.  Nevertheless, most of us have neither your means nor opportunities and are somewhat more used to functioning within guidelines set by others.  I doubt the RLE is going away, and I think casting it as barbaric is a bit hyperbolic.

Think of it this way:  I am having BA/FFS next week.  I have to have my potassium drawn within 10 days of surgery.  My potassium has been checked every three months since starting on spironolactone.  It has never once been abnormal over the course of multiple years.  Nevertheless, the anesthetist insists on the tests:

My options:

1.  Make the case that the odds of my potassium being off next week are vanishingly small and that there has been no previous history of cardiac or renal failure.  Argue that testing is irrational, excessive and impinges on my freedom to choose what care I do or do not want.
2.  Get the flipping test.

I'm going with #2 personally, even though I might be factually correct in pursuing #1.  The potassium level is a safeguard to help the anesthetist identify potential train wrecks.  It costs me little, puts her/him at ease, and...this is important...picks up on something really vital once in a blue moon.

I'll admit that I don't really see the merit of the libertarian argument.  If someone is dedicated to transition, what is the harm in having them try it out before undergoing invasive medical procedures?

Quote from: Complete on September 07, 2017, 09:08:49 PM
The original rational for RLE was to determine whether one is actually a good candidate for transition including hrt/grs...or not. There seems to be a tendency to blow off RLE as a hurdle or just some Cis conspiracy to make it hard to transition.

There are a lot of things people don't know about or don't understand about the "dark ages" and the so called gatekeeping of the past. In many, if not most medical circles outside of a few places of research, knowledge of the treatment for transsexualism by changing the body to fit the mind was limited or considered experimental. There was certainly no widespread consensus among professionals and those that did have some understanding of the phenomenon were conservative and tentative in their approach. They didn't want to make mistakes or have patients filled with regret or get sued, etc.

The world was a lot more binary back then too. Why would doctors want to help someone that could never fit into their new gender role? What would they be unleashing on the world if they created male/female chimeras that couldn't pass or could never successfully assimilate in their new life? This was socially and ethically unacceptable.

Let's face it, transition tends to bring occasionally significant levels of instability and turmoil to a person's life and anyone that's experienced severe gender dysphoria and strong drive to have things taken care of right now knows the potential is there to rush headlong into things without a full comprehension of the consequences long term. Will they be able to get a job and support themselves? Will they eternally be on the fringe of society, be marginalized and suffer minority stress? Will the frequent loss of family, friends and livelihood upset an already tenacious balance in a person's life and will the emotional/psychological baggage be too much to bear? Will the "cure" create more problems than it will solve? There was a lot of caution because the roadmap was ill defined and not entirely proven and accepted. Even today I think certain caution is still warranted in the industrialized, seemingly on demand sex change industry it seems there is now (almost).

These were the reasons for the real life test and back in the day, if you weren't on a surgical track as your ultimate need and objective, then you were something other than transsexual, namely, just a paraphilic transvestite or whatever and good luck with getting help for that. Remember, there was no transgender, no in-between and no non-binary or gender queer/fluid, being gay was considered a mental illness and if you couldn't assimilate fully into your new gender role, then you were pretty much out of luck. In order to insure their patients were going to do well, the guidelines and gatekeeping were pretty strict. You had to demonstrate that you new life was going to be an improvement or at least that post social transition you could take care of yourself and were mentally stable. SRS was considered "the icing on the cake" for the new life you had made for yourself that only came at the end of a long road. One can only imagine the fate of those that washed out of programs or were deemed otherwise unsuitable. I know what I would have done and I wouldn't be here nearly 45 years later writing this had that happened to me.

Over time, it became obvious the one size fits all approach wasn't working and that many of those that failed to meet all the rigid standards could still be helped to varying degrees. Some of this was due to a better understanding of the relationship and distinctions between sex and gender, some of it from changing social attitudes, some of it from the de-pathologization of homosexuality and increased public and medical awareness that trans people were a real thing. All that leads to somewhere near where we are today.

Here's my opinion on the RLE/RLT thing and I think some of it does has to do with age and a person's station in life but exceptions should be rare. I don't  think proving you can live as your new gender should have anything to do with getting hormones, feminizing procedures and therapy. That's just stupid. However, if someone is taking the irreversible steps of having SRS, I'd be concerned if the person hadn't lived fully day to day as the person they're going to be after surgery for at least a year or two. In fact if asked, I would have to offer my opinion that the one year of RLE guideline before having SRS is there for a good reason at least here in North American culture. Remember, it's the "icing on the cake" for the life you've made, not a magic bullet to fix things outside of your relationship with you and your body. I strongly feel the inside you and the outside you need to congeal for a while as a whole person in the real world to make sure it works for you. If you've got unresolved external issues be they be family or relationship problems, problems getting work, housing or domestic issues, SRS isn't going to change them or automatically make them better. RLE is when you show you can work these things out

Quote from: warlockmaker on September 08, 2017, 12:24:32 AM
I fully understand that many who HAD to do RLE want others to go thru it also, its just human nature.

Now wait a minute. That's hooey. What you're promoting may be fine and work well in your country, in your culture and in your medical community but I think it's almost dangerous information to instill the notion to those in this part of the world that RLE is superfluous and invasive gatekeeping intending to hold them back. There's a reason for it I fully support and it's not just because WPATH says so but because I know what it really takes to be successful and don't want to see others make mistakes. Doesn't matter if you are invisibly stealthy, aren't passable or are comfortable outside the gender binary - live it for at least a year or more before having SRS because that surgery isn't going to fix other stuff and many seem to think it will which the medical term for that is "wishful thinking".

Sorry for the long post. I thought some may find the info, the history I had to throw in from before time was invented might be interesting?

There's been plenty of discussions here about taking hrt and not transitioning and it seems generally accepted. I can't see any difference between doing that and having SRS. I'm all for doing whatever makes you happy, and fully agree with warlockmaker.

As far as WPATH goes, it's obvious that there's plenty of medical "professionals" that gatekeep rather than follow it. Whats not so obvious is that there's plenty that respect their patients and provide them the freedom to do as they choose. WPATH is not what it appears to be.

I think forced RLE(except for minors) is potentially harmful and meaningless, especially before HRT/FFS. The psychiatrist surely will feel more comfortable before giving the referral for HRT(mine made me wait like 8 months and it was terrible) but beyond that they don't care much. They don't care about our distress not getting our treatment, or discrimination/harassment we might get from doing RLE before passing as cis. -I tried to explain that to my psychiatrist ok naturally you want to make absolutely sure it will be ok to give me HRT but making me wait this long has negative effects on my life too. She took that as me threatening her with suicide and threatened having me put into a mental institution or something. I was never suicidal in my life and I didn't imply such a thing.-

Everybody will have different circumstances and have more or less succesful transitions, psychiatrist might  help the patient be aware of potential negative stuff and all their options but in the end it should be up to the patient.

Like maybe a patient will lose their job, lose some family, not fully blend in as their gender and cis gender psychiatrist might see that as a disaster and want to "save" the patient from that fate. But that might be still better than not transitioning for the patient? It's not like we have other treatment options for a person who definitely wants to medically transition, we can't say "oh it appears you won't have the most succesful transition so take these pills and you should be ok living as your AAB gender". For SRS it might be better to be more cautious but again professionals should be open minded to people's different circumstances. Some people take hormones and get surgeries but not socially transition. If that is the best solution for them why should they be prevented?

And RLE can be meaningless before HRT and FFS because without at least HRT you may not be able blend in your gender , not that you have to but it might not reflect what your life will be like after HRT and whatever treatments you want.
Oh and if the gatekeeping is too strict people will just lie to psychiatrists. If therapists expect you to be a certain way a lot of people will say them what they want to hear. A lot of psychiatrists expected a trans woman to be very feminine and they acted like that to get treatment, and(from what I read) then they would make deductions like TS women are overly feminine when in their own lives they are more like cis women on average.

Last edit: I think if the patient is adult and mentally fit to make their decisions, if they know about these issues and treatments they should be able to make their final decisions. It is impossible to make sure no body ever regrets any decision. People will take all kinds of risks in their lives.

Society fear change, but its up to us to think out of the box and look at the rules that the next generation will face in the west. In Thailand TGs are identified by parents at a very youg age, normally between 5 to 12 yrs old. They dress as their preferred gender at a young age because there is no major taboo nor discrimination. Because of this most dont even understand this rule of RLE. They are lobbying so that they can officially marry and change their birth id so that they can travel abroad easier. We are referred to as the third generation and a natural part of nature and no difference from cis men and women. All these rules the demean us to 3rd  class citizens from those in power who want just the keep things as they are. Who suffers from this view? Time to look at change.

Quote from: warlockmaker on September 08, 2017, 08:42:31 AM
Society fear change, but its up to us to think out of the box and look at the rules that the next generation will face in the west. In Thailand TGs are identified by parents at a very youg age, normally between 5 to 12 yrs old. They dress as their preferred gender at a young age because there is no major taboo nor discrimination. Because of this most dont even understand this rule of RLE. They are lobbying so that they can officially marry and change their birth id so that they can travel abroad easier. We are referred to as the third generation and a natural part of nature and no difference from cis men and women. All these rules the demean us to 3rd  class citizens from those in power who want just the keep things as they are. Who suffers from this view? Time to look at change.

Hey may I ask you a question  :) When we were in Thailand my mother saw a group of students and all the boys had very short hair, and someone we asked said it was a dress code. She was wondering what if one kid is trans wouldn't that be really tough emotionally? I said I don't know maybe they make an exception in that case but we were still curious. If 5-12 yrs old kids can present as their identified gender, do you know what do they do at school?

One more thought to add:  I think the perception that there is a mental health establishment hostile to transgender rights eager seeking to snuff out transition despite and against the will of their patients is paranoid hogwash.  The APA, AMA, and dozens of massive international organizations are in our corner, seeking to promote WPATH not to thwart transition, but to see that it is done consistently and well.

I believe there needs to be some middle ground.  A year of RLE seems a little much but I agree that some is important.  What if changes on HRT aren't as "magical" as you expected (hoped)?  What if funds for FFS dry-up and you're stuck in some middle ground with your male bone structure?  Would you reverse your life and go back to live as a man or should you learn to have confidence as you are?   Are you mentally prepared for that possibility?  RLE will help with that....it's a dose of valuable reality.  Even with extensive HRT and 100k worth of FFS, some girls will always be seen as trans...are you ready for that?  RLE will help.

Also, there's lots of agreement about therapy and RLE related to GCS/SRS, but not as much about HRT.  I would say HRT is easily as life altering as GCS/SRS and therefore should be treated similarly.  The attitude that you can dabble in HRT or "give it a try" is dangerous.  My opinion is you need to be "all in" and if you are, RLE should be no big deal.  As for RLE goes, it's different for everyone.  Nobody is saying that you need to wear an evening gown and stilettos to the grocery store.....that's ridiculous and not realistic. 

xFreya: Its up to the parents to decide if they go as a female or male in school and dress accordingly. There is no discrimination and tgs naturally grow up to act like females/males. Life has the buddhist philosophy of "live and let live".

Quote from: staciM on September 08, 2017, 10:48:13 AM
Also, there's lots of agreement about therapy and RLE related to GCS/SRS, but not as much about HRT.  I would say HRT is easily as life altering as GCS/SRS and therefore should be treated similarly.  The attitude that you can dabble in HRT or "give it a try" is dangerous.  My opinion is you need to be "all in" and if you are, RLE should be no big deal.  As for RLE goes, it's different for everyone.  Nobody is saying that you need to wear an evening gown and stilettos to the grocery store.....that's ridiculous and not realistic.

If my gender/gender identity is certainly binary female, naturally I want female hormone levels and secondary sex characteristics. Even if I face other problems living as a trans woman, this won't change. So why should a trans person in this situation not just advised to but have to wait, while cis people simply can get their hormones right if necessary? Cis people get all kinds of elective procedures too.

Btw I don't think WPATH and those organizations are hostile to trans rights, but we live in different places and just debate how things should/shouldn't be :)

Quote from: warlockmaker on September 08, 2017, 11:06:24 AM
xFreya: Its up to the parents to decide if they go as a female or male in school and dress accordingly. There is no discrimination and tgs naturally grow up to act like females/males. Life has the buddhist philosophy of "live and let live".

Oh okay, that's cool, thank you :)

Quote from: xFreya on September 08, 2017, 11:07:16 AM
If my gender/gender identity is certainly binary female, naturally I want female hormone levels and secondary sex characteristics. Even if I face other problems living as a trans woman, this won't change. So why should a trans person in this situation not just advised to but have to wait, while cis people simply can get their hormones right if necessary? Cis people get all kinds of elective procedures too.

Btw I don't think WPATH and those organizations are hostile to trans rights, but we live in different places and just debate how things should/shouldn't be :)

CIS gendered individuals have the advantage of clear data showing that their hormone levels are outside specific ranges and can be appropriately corrected.  Whether we like it or not, at the moment, and until they can find another appropriate method, much of the transgender identify is mentally perceived.  Since this is the case, and before dangerous cross-sex hormones are prescribed there should be some checks and balances to verify that what we "feel" is indeed correct and not something else going on....and that we know what to expect realistically long term. 

Ask a CIS gender individual to go to the Dr. and ask for hormones because they "feel" they're not right and see what traction they get without a battery of tests and verification. 

I'm just as confident as you in my identity, but I also feel that even with this confidence, jumping into something without some feel for RLE is like marrying a mate without a first date.  Even if your head says it's exciting, they are attractive, and on paper they are compatible...do you think that's a good idea?  Do people do that?  Yes.  However, I bet the chances of that being the correct decision is decidedly low.  Also, some of us are plenty capable of mentally calculating the future...relationships, finances, society etc.... but I also have been exposed to individuals that are just as confident and desperate as you and I but are just as likely to think they are a chicken tomorrow.....i.e. not ready for such an important decision without a dose of reality.

Quote from: staciM on September 08, 2017, 11:58:46 AM
CIS gendered individuals have the advantage of clear data showing that their hormone levels are outside specific ranges and can be appropriately corrected.  Whether we like it or not, at the moment, and until they can find another appropriate method, much of the transgender identify is mentally perceived.  Since this is the case, and before dangerous cross-sex hormones are prescribed there should be some checks and balances to verify that what we "feel" is indeed correct and not something else going on....and that we know what to expect realistically long term. 

Ask a CIS gender individual to go to the Dr. and ask for hormones because they "feel" they're not right and see what traction they get without a battery of tests and verification. 

I'm just as confident as you in my identity, but I also feel that even with this confidence, jumping into something without some feel for RLE is like marrying a mate without a first date.  Even if your head says it's exciting, they are attractive, and on paper they are compatible...do you think that's a good idea?  Do people do that?  Yes.  However, I bet the chances of that being the correct decision is decidedly low.  Also, some of us are plenty capable of mentally calculating the future...relationships, finances, society etc.... but I also have been exposed to individuals that are just as confident and desperate as you and I but are just as likely to think they are a chicken tomorrow.....i.e. not ready for such an important decision without a dose of reality.

Of course gender identity is perceived, it is something perceived by each person trans or cis, even if cis people are often unaware they have a gender identity. Can a psychiatrist tell whether a patient trans or not? Until we can figure out a way to do brain scans or something to consistently diagnose it, they can only help the patient figure it out, educate them on their options and try to help them with problems they may face transitioning. They shouldn't use strict RLE rules for people who certainly want HRT. Or maybe endos shouldn't require it for adults, Idk. Doing RLE isn't really a simulation of HRT's physical and mental effects anyway.

Hormones aren't even that dangerous when they are done with an endo. I wish I wasn't that scared of HRT when I was in my teenage years.

I am not desperate at the moment by the way, I've been on HRT for 15 months and post SRS for almost 4 months.

Quote from: MissGendered on January 27, 2017, 01:58:49 PM


Is there actually a country where one has to do RLE pre-HRT?

Not sure about whole country, but my therapist would not refer me to HRT without going out in Full fem. I told her that I have went out with Makeup, nails done, hosiery, ladies t shirt, and heels. But with men's jeans on. She said that wasn't good enough.

Quote from: misschievous on September 08, 2017, 12:47:33 PM
Not sure about whole country, but my therapist would not refer me to HRT without going out in Full fem. I told her that I have went out with Makeup, nails done, hosiery, ladies t shirt, and heels. But with men's jeans on. She said that wasn't good enough.

r

Not knowing where you are I don't know about practice there but WPATH v7 doesn't require RLE or a therapist referral at all for HRT. All that should be required is a diagnosis of gender dysphoria without any psychiatric contraindications. Your physician ought to be able to refer you for HRT - that's what mine did.

Version 6 of WPATH did have an RLE requirement and just as not all mental health professionals choose to follow new versions of the DSM, physicians may choose to observe an older protocol.

So it seems there are more than a few trains of thought running through this thread. One is that a responsible approach to hrt is for the patient to fully understand the effects and the ultimate result of long term use. Another seems to be that any adult should be entitled to these drugs without any responsibility for the consequences or even to pay for them. Some seem to think that these powerful drugs should be dispensed for whatever reason that someone might want. There are many on this forum who want or use these drugs for simple feminization, while still wanting to maintain their virility.
Is this not a misuse of these drugs? Is it the right of these people to have these drugs and make the rest of us to pay for them? Personally, l don't think so.

Quote from: Complete on September 08, 2017, 09:54:34 PM
So it seems there are more than a few trains of thought running through this thread. One is that a responsible approach to hrt is for the patient to fully understand the effects and the ultimate result of long term use. Another seems to be that any adult should be entitled to these drugs without any responsibility for the consequences or even to pay for them. Some seem to think that these powerful drugs should be dispensed for whatever reason that someone might want. There are many on this forum who want or use these drugs for simple feminization, while still wanting to maintain their virility.
Is this not a misuse of these drugs? Is it the right of these people to have these drugs and make the rest of us to pay for them? Personally, l don't think so.
&WRT gcs:
Nowadays it seems that anyone who wants it, or thinks they want it, should get it at taxpayers expense.

Addressing your last point first, nobody I know that's been on HRT or for GCS has spent a dime of taxpayer money on either, they've all done it out of pocket or by employer health insurance. In the case of the latter it was friends who worked for IBM and John Hancock insurance company respectively and it was covered as medical expenses because those are companies that appreciate that the value they derive from their employees dwarfs what they pay out in healthcare costs. Both of these women had their transition medical fees covered including BA and electrolysis in the early '90s and early '00s respectively.

My coverage isn't quite as complete as theirs but I'd bet if I wanted to pursue BA and full hair removal, I could get it covered, moot point, as I don't want these things. And if my insurance were government funded, so what? We pay into Medicare all of our working lives, like any insurance, that's how it works. The key is "medically necessary", if that bar is met then it's correctly covered by insurance.

As for "misuse", by definition if the 'drugs' are prescribed by a licensed MD then it's not misuse. I would also argue that hrt isn't a drug, it's a normal and essential part of our bodies that are absolutely essential for metabolic and mental health (hormones are an essential to the body's healing systems as well as for production of neurotransmitters). In terms of those fundamentals testosterone and estrogen serve the same purposes so it's simply a matter of having the correct one in place.

I can't really fathom what you intend by "want or use these drugs for simple feminization, while still wanting to maintain their virility."

If you mean to say that one should not be permitted to transition as far as HRT will allow unless also proceeding to GCS, I say bollocks! First off, one hardly remains virile just because there's still a penis in place. In my own case I determined that I'd be happier on HRT and foregoing vaginoplasty than doing nothing and I weighed this exhaustively with my psychiatrist and my gf. Ultimately I decided I needed GCS as well and so far hindsight says the decision was far more correct and necessary than I'd imagined.

I am happy things worked out so we'll for you and that you benefit from your employer's health plan. Others are not so fortunate. I still think the purpose of RLE is to at least try to make sure the person about to embark on a profound life change understands what to expect. That is all. If someone is in a position to pay their own way, then  of course they can do what they want. If however the are not and someone else,  be it an insurance plan or gov't., then  the decision is in the hands of others. If you were putting up the money for someone else, would you not want some assurances that  your money was being well spent?

Quote from: SadieBlake on September 08, 2017, 10:45:13 PMI would also argue that hrt isn't a drug, it's a normal and essential part of our bodies that are absolutely essential for metabolic and mental health (hormones are an essential to the body's healing systems as well as for production of neurotransmitters).

By that standard, insulin, epinephrine and tissue plasminogen activase are not drugs.  Good luck with that. 

Quote from: SadieBlake on September 08, 2017, 10:45:13 PMIf you mean to say that one should not be permitted to transition as far as HRT will allow unless also proceeding to GCS, I say bollocks! First off, one hardly remains virile just because there's still a penis in place. In my own case I determined that I'd be happier on HRT and foregoing vaginoplasty than doing nothing and I weighed this exhaustively with my psychiatrist and my gf. Ultimately I decided I needed GCS as well and so far hindsight says the decision was far more correct and necessary than I'd imagined.

Let me venture a guess.  You went through the process as envisioned by WPATH, meeting with physicians, coming to fully informed consent at every step along the way.  Perhaps you encountered someone along the way that didn't understand WPATH and seemed to be in your way.  You recognized this.  You educated yourself.  You found a provider who knew the guidelines.  You were supported in your transition.  It worked out well for you. 

How close did I get?

Never felt anyone was in the way or gatekeeping. My pshrink wasn't especially knowledgeable about transexualism however there was no time that I felt she wasn't both behind me and fully supportive, fair to say we educated ourselves as a team effort.

Quote from: SadieBlake on September 09, 2017, 12:53:36 AM
Never felt anyone was in the way or gatekeeping. My pshrink wasn't especially knowledgeable about transexualism however there was no time that I felt she wasn't both behind me and fully supportive, fair to say we educated ourselves as a team effort.

Ok, so what gives?  The system works.

Quote from: SadieBlake link=topic=209027.msg2024082#msg2024082

If you mean to say that one should not be permitted to transition as far as HRT will allow unless also proceeding to GCS, I say bollocks! First off, one hardly remains virile just because there's still a penis in place. In my own case I determined that I'd be happier on HRT and foregoing vaginoplasty than doing nothing and I weighed this exhaustively with my psychiatrist and my gf. Ultimately I decided I needed GCS as well and so far hindsight says the decision was far more correct and necessary than I'd imagined.

Again,  l am happy for you that you have found your way to happiness. You are one of those very special people who have found a cultural acceptance, although l think perhaps being accepted as a third gender is not the same as being perceived as simply a man or a woman. As l said in another thread,  it is up to to each person to find their own happiness and personal fulfillment.

Here in Thailand 50 pct of the tgs retain their penis, they look every bit the female and equally  win major beauty pagents. No one cares if there us a penis or not, we are female tgs. and we are also bi, llesbian and hetro or any combination. Maybe some transphobic, and uneducated cis male or female may find it hard to accept. But we as TGs surely can accept our diversity.

We as TG must strive to unite, accept with our hearts and celebrate our diversity. Only then, united, without hate can the we change the heart of our country's  population.

I would so love to do your approach Warlockmaker.  Maybe someday  ??? I do like the idea of GCS before you come out.  In my opinion it's the easiest thing to be stealth about.  You can have it your whole life and no one except maybe your doctor need ever know. 

Take care,
Paige :)

from the start, years ago, my therapist was telling me I needed to first start to wear more women's clothing, wear bras and fake breasts, and I just thought it was not the right way to go. I felt I needed to transition from the inside out, not reverse as she was telling me. So that's what I did, I took hormones and slowly slipped into female clothing and looks as the woman in me was blooming out. I don't pass, a little more than I would have then with fake breasts, but I'm solid inside, female inside, biochemically and psychologically, and I know a little more who I am. RLE sound to me like a really hard core psychological experiment.

Quote from: Soli on September 09, 2017, 01:27:48 PM
from the start, years ago, my therapist was telling me I needed to first start to wear more women's clothing, wear bras and fake breasts, and I just thought it was not the right way to go. I felt I needed to transition from the inside out, not reverse as she was telling me. So that's what I did, I took hormones and slowly slipped into female clothing and looks as the woman in me was blooming out. I don't pass, a little more than I would have then with fake breasts, but I'm solid inside, female inside, biochemically and psychologically, and I know a little more who I am. RLE sound to me like a really hard core psychological experiment.

I don't know when you transitioned. But it seems that you were able to manage your own transition w/o to much outside interference. When l started my transition,  l spent an entire year on a serious trans-sexual hormonal regimen while continuing to present male. At the end of that year underwent srs and did my facial hair removal while recovering and still under doctor supervised pain medications. I guess my point is that if you are absolutely sure where you are going,  all you have to do is to find the best way to get there.

We're all so different.

I started HRT in 1972 between my junior and senior year in high school. Transitioning in school was impossible back then even though I wasn't really passing as a boy after I was 15 or so, so it was what is was. After graduating and going "full time" at 18, it wasn't until four years later when I was 22 that I was able to have SRS.

By then, everything had stabilized in my life and I'd been at the same job for several years. After much deliberation and back and forth between insurance providers and my doctors, my procedures were covered through my group plan at work. Met Life™ told me I was the first they had ever provided this type of coverage for. That was in 1977.

I took six weeks off at work and resumed the same job for another two years. I guess you could say I has four years of RLE before having SRS which was about three years too long. The only thing surgery changed in my life was my private relationship with my body and made no outward differences whatsoever.

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 09, 2017, 10:48:44 PM
The only thing surgery changed in my life was my private relationship with my body and made no outward differences whatsoever.

Exactly. The only other thing that significantly changed in my life was my ability to have a meaningful and normal sexual relations with another.

Quote from: Complete on September 08, 2017, 09:54:34 PM
So it seems there are more than a few trains of thought running through this thread. One is that a responsible approach to hrt is for the patient to fully understand the effects and the ultimate result of long term use. Another seems to be that any adult should be entitled to these drugs without any responsibility for the consequences or even to pay for them. Some seem to think that these powerful drugs should be dispensed for whatever reason that someone might want. There are many on this forum who want or use these drugs for simple feminization, while still wanting to maintain their virility.
Is this not a misuse of these drugs? Is it the right of these people to have these drugs and make the rest of us to pay for them? Personally, l don't think so.

No, I don't think it is a misuse of the drugs. What's wrong with wanting to maintain male function? That was my desire, but it hasn't been my reality. I accepted that as a risk going in.

You're not being very accepting of the diversity in this community.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 10, 2017, 11:09:36 AM
No, I don't think it is a misuse of the drugs. What's wrong with wanting to maintain male function? That was my desire, but it hasn't been my reality. I accepted that as a risk going in.

There's nothing wrong with it.  The problem occurs when people consider Google to be a valid substitute for medical consultation and beef that the latter is unreasonable in order to obtain a prescription.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 10, 2017, 01:26:03 PM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 10, 2017, 11:09:36 AM
No, I don't think it is a misuse of the drugs. What's wrong with wanting to maintain male function? That was my desire, but it hasn't been my reality. I accepted that as a risk going in.

There's nothing wrong with it.  The problem occurs when people consider Google to be a valid substitute for medical consultation and beef that the latter is unreasonable in order to obtain a prescription.

Tell it to Complete, not me.  ;)

Hugs, Devlyn

I am all for diversity. I am happy that you are able to accept those with views like mine that are different from yours.
I guess l am not much of an "anything goes" type of person. If presenting female while functioning male is your desire then why worry,  be happy. Not sure what this has to do with RLE.

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 03, 2016, 02:01:50 AM
To take it a step further, I'm all for doing SRS first and RLE some years later. If ever. I got enough problems without social transtion making it all worse.

This right here has never been more of an issue than in today's social and culture climate, at least here in the US.  Since the 2016 elections America has taken major steps backwards in regards to issue such as the ones we face.  And quite honestly, is one of the reasons I'm really conflicted about any possible transition for myself.  Mentally and pyschologically, I know something is off and it is causing me problems, butin the much larger picture those problems are so much easier to deal with compared to the problems I may face if I were to come out and try and transition, especially given our political climate right now, and the empowerment given to those who have extremely conservative views and the power they are being given to dictate how others live their own lives.

Quote from: warlockmaker on June 02, 2016, 11:52:14 PM
It's ok for those who want RLE but to force it on a person, of age, to do RLE,  is cruel and takes away our rights as human beings.

I also feel that forcing a person who feels uncomfortable in dressing up as a female when they feel they are not physically ready in appearance is barbaric.

Look at me today...I'm a happy female , I could not image the ridicule I would have received dressed up as a female when I looked and felt physically as a man.

^^This right here is why its such a barrier for so many people!  And I'm so glad that you are a happy woman now!!!  <3