Susan's Place Transgender Resources

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I usually don't post promos on my page, but over the course of 3 months, hundreds of hours of research, this is the most important story of my career. I hope it will help many, many people.

There was a drug, given to 5 million women to prevent miscarriages. It caused vaginal cancer and a whole bunch of other problems for the daughters of women who took it.

Certain doctors and researchers and those in the community believe the drug can make a person transgender.

This has been a controversial, difficult story to put together. There are many conflicting viewpoints. Opposing sides who hung up the phone on me. Angry mothers. A major drug manufacturer who declined my request for an interview. America wasn't ready to hear this story 10, or 15 years ago.

But now is the time.

I'm holding two live sessions tomorrow: around 9:15pm and 11:15pm during the newscast. Two in the transgender community will be joining me for each.

-Dion Lim, anchor/reporter at WTSP 10 News/CBS Tampa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYFmhIFPBSE

Hopefully, Dion's story will be the breakthough needed to finally draw public attention to a gigantic medical disaster that has remained hidden for decades, and blighted the lives of millions. This is the teaser for it; I think the full story is being broadcast tomorrow at 10pm/11pm EST.

You talking about the very well known effects of BPA?

Found a very good article here:
healthmasters.com/blog/chemical-gender-manipulation

Quote. . .  a few endocrine disruptor's and their effect. Fluoride, bromide, iodine, and chlorine are all halogens. The fluoride is in our tooth paste, bromide is in baked goods, chlorine is in our water.

Iodine is used by the thyroid. When these other halogens are consumed, the thyroid thinks they
are iodine and absorbs them. This is bad.

I do not drink tap water or anything out of a bottle and been taking 'Survival Shield X-2 - Nascent Iodine' for over a year.

No, Kiera, they're referring to di-ethyl stylbestrol (DES). It affects the fetus, and the mother and hasn't been used since about 1973 in the US. The carcinogenic effects on mothers and their female fetuses were discovered about then and a lawsuit ensued. Much later the gender-bending effects upon male fetuses were suspected but not actually proved. Some people believe any research into that has been scotched or sabotaged to save the pharmaceutical companies from facing a lawsuit over a drug that they haven't manufactured in 40 years.

I find this absolutely fascinating; it's great to hear you're researching this. There are a few trans women on here who say their mum's took this drug while pregnant with them. Makes me wonder if in the future they'll be cases of people trying to sue the drug company for the trans affects it had on them; similar to the court case against the pharmacy company giving out thalidomide.

My mother took DES and I wouldn't sue.  However, I do want it acknowledged so the question of covering it with medical insurance is put to rest and so the arguments of the moral bigots are once and for all destroyed.


Sapere Aude

I wouldn't sue either. Then again, I have no way to prove my mother took it. She fits the profile. The drug companies know that enough people would, though. Can you honestly say that if someone filed a class action suit you wouldn't participate? I can't. There's a certain justice in the medical companies that made us this way having to pay for our transitions.

I can't prove it either.  But my mother, who is now deceased, told me she was given DES a few years ago after she saw an article about it in the news. 

The article mentioned all sorts of problems the DES could cause except it neglected to mention the effect on gender identity.


Sapere Aude

Like I stated in another post,I found my mom took prenatal vitamins that had DES,I was her firstborn and looked like a girl,my middle sis was born 2 yrs later and acted and looked more like a boy then I did. Puberty came and I developed like a girl,grew breasts to a small b cup and started too wear baggy shirts,no Adam's Apple my throat looks like a female's,the only thing besides facial hair that makes me male is my appendage that I grew to love. When clean shaved and my hair down I get strange looks in the mens rm.

I'll never know for sure. My mom was was at an advanced age for being pregnant at the time (43) and she had had previous miscarriages and healthy births.  I would not be surprised if she did.

Though there were problems found with the drug, I suspect the "trans-issue" is probably nothing more than how some people attack vaccines for causing Autism.

DES bathed a developing male fetus in an estrogenic drug ten times stronger than what they used to castrate sex offenders at the time.  There is science and observation behind this conclusion unlike the vaccination conspiracy theories.


Sapere Aude

Another anecdotal data point.   I'm a DES 'son', exposed in utero to a fairly high dosage.  Mom had several miscarriages before me, and didn't want to lose another baby, so was placed on DES.  It definitely had an effect.

The most obviously visible changes were the undescended testicles, along with some feminine bone structure appearing at the extremities, both feet and hands.  (This does make shoe shopping easier!). The testicle thing combined with delayed onset of puberty caused severe social problems in high school.  Think locker room.  I was given a series of injections at age 15 'so you'll grow up right'.  The shots turned an effeminate A student into a hairy, angry D student, so I suppose they worked.   :P

Quote from: RobynD on May 25, 2016, 12:40:00 PM
I'll never know for sure. My mom was was at an advanced age for being pregnant at the time (43) and she had had previous miscarriages and healthy births.  I would not be surprised if she did.

Robyn! Are you a twin sister I never knew about? I had four sisters and two brothers. Only 5 of us were born, one sister died within a year, one brother died within 3.

This is a very timely story. What with all the talk about us being sinful, going against God's word, etc., a reminder of the biological basis of gender would be very timely.

My mother never took it to my knowledge and I was born shortly after that 1973 number. She did tell me last year that the doctors gave her something to help her get her periods several months into her pregnancy with me because nobody knew she was pregnant yet though. Within the past month, she's told me about trips to the hospital for me as a child that when combined with my completely backwards hormone levels pre-HRT (more E than women and less T than women) makes it sound like I've been living with an undiagnosed intersex condition all these years.

I'm not in the US so had no way of viewing it live, but here's a link to what seems to be the full segment that was broadcast yesterday:

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/did-a-drug-lead-to-transgender-/215338199

There are also videos of two live Q&A sessions on Dion Lim's Facebook page, one held before the broadcast and the other after.

https://www.facebook.com/Dion-Lim-146674682074805/

One thing I should mention is that, in the video, Dion says DES babies were exposed to the equivalent amount of artificial estrogen to 50,000 birth control pills. Actually, under the standard dosing schedule, it was more like 500,000 modern low dose birth control pills, a ridiculously large amount that must have caused quite a few fatalities amongst the mothers, never mind abnormalities in their children!

DES had been discontinued as a miscarriage treatment in most places by about 1980, however it was replaced by a class of hormones called progestins, which are also manmade female hormones and have feminizing properties if you give them to adult men. If they have feminizing effects on unborn male babies as well (and why wouldn't they?), this might explain why more and more trans kids are continuing to be born even though DES has long since been phased out.

This could be very true and makes a lot of sense , but for me there is a lot more to the story of the transgender than a medical mishap.

->-bleeped-<- can be dated to the time humans started to populate the earth. For some reason some of us are born this way,while others are normal. I remember a story of this lady in the mid 1800's who married soldiers from a fort out in Indian country,everyone one husband would be killed she would marry another soldier, she even married a few officers, When she died they found she was actually a he,but out of respect they buried her as the woman she was. Trans cultures can be found in every pagan society, Rome this culture was excepted,in some American Indian tribes they had a voice and we looked up to for these people were thought too be born with twin souls. So even without a drug some of us are born this way.

My mother once told me she was on a drug while she was pregnant with me. She didn't remember what it was but the timeframe was in that era. Who knows? While I'm open to the idea that certain drugs may influence our identity, I don't acknowledge this as the only cause.

We are talking about biology here. It's complicated, messy, and can never be explained with certainty. I've always said that the greatest and best delineated fact of the transgender cause is that we exist. We can be counted. That IS a fact.

The proximate cause is incorrect hormone levels at specific stages of pregnancy.  This is really not a controversial conclusion at all amongst those who have done the studies.  Exogenous drugs such as DES can induce this.  It can also happen due to other factors concerning the pregnancy.


Sapere Aude

Apparently the broadcast was split into two parts, and the second part is here:

http://www.wtsp.com/mb/news/health/can-a-drug-make-you-transgender/215234337

There's also the live Q&A sessions on Dion Lim's facebook page (although I wasn't terribly impressed with the second one, as the guy she was interviewing was pooh poohing the idea without coming up with any valid reasons for doing so).

It looks like they got the go ahead for a second story about DES and transgender, which is due to be broadcast in 1 day's time. Here's the trailer for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Furgrf3xc

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way but here it is...

I'm all for figuring out why I'm the way I am.  It has caused me quite a bit of stress and anxiety throughout my life and I'm sure more is in my future.  However, my goal is to find a way to fit in as a "new normal".  I need to know/believe that I was born this way...it was the way nature intended, for whatever reason. 

This DES situation makes Transgender identity look more like a "Frankensteinian" thing....pointing to the fact that we weren't born this way, we were created!  Almost treating a trans person as though they have a deformity.

I think that is the wrong message to the world. 

I'm not going to dispute whether DES may have caused an increase in trans births...I just don't know.  But hopefully, the average person can see through this and see that being trans is not only because of this.

The anti-trans groups are just waiting for more ammunition for their hate campaigns.  I think this just gives them another way of showing that what we do and what we are, is not natural.

Ok, I'm stepping off my soapbox...LOL


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Apparently, because of the Florida shooting, the broadcast of the sequel now won't take place until some time later this week.

Quote from: Amber42 on June 12, 2016, 08:26:18 AM
This DES situation makes Transgender identity look more like a "Frankensteinian" thing....pointing to the fact that we weren't born this way, we were created!  Almost treating a trans person as though they have a deformity.

I think that is the wrong message to the world. 

Well, I think that if a drug is responsible for a significant number of cases of transsexuality, then the world should know about it, and it's counterproductive to keep it a secret. At least it provides a rational explanation for some of the more skeptical members of the public as to how transsexuality can arise, and that trans people actually are who we perceive ourselves to be - people whose bodies have developed along the lines of our genetic sex, but whose brain has developed as the opposite sex (or partly male and partly female in my case).

Something had too happen to make me born a freak of nature. I'm all female except one thing,I developed like a girl except for periods instead I had alot of pent up rage that scared me. To the outside world I'm a male due to a disguise I got good at making,its hard being neither male or female.

Quote from: HughE on June 12, 2016, 07:43:49 PM
Well, I think that if a drug is responsible for a significant number of cases of transsexuality, then the world should know about it, and it's counterproductive to keep it a secret. At least it provides a rational explanation for some of the more skeptical members of the public as to how transsexuality can arise, and that trans people actually are who we perceive ourselves to be - people whose bodies have developed along the lines of our genetic sex, but whose brain has developed as the opposite sex (or partly male and partly female in my case).

One one thing I find it useful for is explaining a possible cause of my state, in particular dealing with those who believe that it is a 'lifestyle choice' or a 'mental illness'.  By showing a possible organic cause, I can argue that this is a medical issue, and I can point to treatments like HRT as the only medical care available to address the issue.  As I've mentioned before, accepting my transgender nature and receiving treatment is a lifestyle choice only if one also considers self-medicating into a stupor, or suicide to be alternative lifestyle choices.  Hint: They aren't.

I've taken to carrying around some images on my 'phone; scans and slice images of brain tissue like this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-X5FoMXJvluk%2FVnVkxAEaZTI%2FAAAAAAAAAs8%2FIMpl0_43rJA%2Fs1600%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=9f7c4fbc7b716d85fa21019f67b9157ca28508fd)

  Finally! Some local news organization actually picked-up on the possible effects of this drug. Transsexualism may be only one of the ticking time bomb effects of DES. My prostate problems and an autoimmune disorder (a new found possibility?) I am currently fighting may be traced to my mom may have taken this drug. A loss of a daughter to adoption and her history of anemia makes my mom a good candidate. She wouldn't talk about the subject in the 1980's when it came out that the sons and daughters of DES were having fertility problems and having more reproductive cancers. She did on the gay, abortion and other hot topic issues at the time.
  That geneticist from Johns Hopkins mentioned in the article did not mention that certain disorders that are DNA related can be in people not missing or having certain markers that prevent them from getting those disorders get it anyway by some proven environmental cause. She is carrying that same flag that her previous researcher stymied me from getting any treatment in the late 1970's
  Hot topic here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,84224.200.html
Last page, but a lot of info in this thread.

Joelene

I think this DES thing needs to be talked about and brought into the open. Some good research could clarify why and when some DES babies became trans. We know that incidence of transgender varies between societies, even though it's always there, which could indicate a mixture of genetic and environmental triggers.

Knowledge can be a double edged sword but I think the balance here is on knowing the truth rather than ignorance.

I wonder if the incidence of trans really does vary between societies.  Maybe what is varying is the degree of repression between societies while the rate of trans stays constant.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on June 13, 2016, 09:14:37 AM
I wonder if the incidence of trans really does vary between societies.  Maybe what is varying is the degree of repression between societies while the rate of trans stays constant.


Sapere Aude

I almost hope your suggestion is wrong! It will just encourage our detractors to say, "see, if we hold fast THOSE people will be "better"".

Based upon history, it's almost certainly true that repression reduces the visibility of minorities and that's all they really want, for us to jump back in the closet so that they can nail the door shut.

I can't believe people think we are some pharmaceutical science screw up ... Sorry that is a insult to the 9th degree. And before pharmaceuticals how can one explain trans ? #rollEyes


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Quote from: TinaVane on June 13, 2016, 05:01:49 PM
I can't believe people think we are some pharmaceutical science screw up ... Sorry that is a insult to the 9th degree.

Like it or not, there's plenty of research in animals showing that being prenatally exposed to certain hormones can cause opposite sexed development to take place. In particular, estrogens have been shown to cause female development in biological males, whereas hormones with androgenic properties (testosterone, DHT and synthetic hormones derived from testosterone) have been shown to cause male development in female fetuses. The only controversial thing about it is that doctors and the pharmaceutical industry weren't paying attention to what was being shown in the scientific research, and as a result, hormones with potentially gender bending properties have ended up being prescribed to millions of pregnant women over the years, for preventing miscarriages and premature births, and for various other medical reasons. DES is just one of them (although probably the worst example, since the doses involved were so high).

Trans people (and intersex people) have existed throughout history, so obviously DES etc aren't the only thing causing people to be born trans. However, hormones and other drugs with potentially gender bending properties have seen such a lot of use in women's medicine that I think they must be an important cause.

Roll eyes ...


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Having been delayed for several weeks as a result of the Florida shootings, the sequel was finally broadcast last night.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/health/women-say-des-made-them-transgender/264909475

I'm wondering whether, now that one TV station has "broken the ice", there's any way of getting other media outlets to pick up on the story. There's good theoretical reasons for thinking that other synthetic hormones besides DES (in particular, the progestin class of hormones) might also be able to cause female brain development in biologically male fetuses, so it's not just a historical thing, it's something that could also apply to drugs still in use.

This is something that I have wondered about, but I'll likely never know. I was born in 1969 at a Catholic charities hospital and adopted instantly. No previous birth certificate. So I think it's possible but unknown.
Oh well, I am who I am. Cause or no cause   

A part of me thinks that this theory could be real and a part of me feels so insulted by it. Like I am an accident after all? I want to ask my mom if she took this DES crap because she had a miscarriage right before I was born since she never really took good care of herself, so I am told by my father everyday. Not sure if it means anything though. But it makes me wonder. Still, I can see how this might affect mtfs, but how do you explain ftms? Maybe I missed something.

Quote from: King Phoenix on July 06, 2016, 03:30:53 PM
A part of me thinks that this theory could be real and a part of me feels so insulted by it. Like I am an accident after all?

I have never heard of DES being associated with FTM transgender offspring.  For MTF, the link is well-established, but not the other way.  It is an estrogen, so it makes sense that it would work in the MTF direction.

For me, I am almost certainly the result of DES.  It gives me a certain peace of mind knowing that I am not imagining this.  I don't find it insulting or demeaning in any way.  It's just my history.

I know people here are going to dislike what I am about to ask but, if a drug can cause it, do you think there is one that can reverse it? I hate being transgender. I don't want this. I want to be cisgender.

Quote from: King Phoenix on July 06, 2016, 08:18:59 PM
I know people here are going to dislike what I am about to ask but, if a drug can cause it, do you think there is one that can reverse it? I hate being transgender. I don't want this. I want to be cisgender.

Some portions of the brain are fluid and change as we grow, other areas like sexual preference and gender identity are set before we are born and can't be altered. Possibly an estrogen blocker would reduce the discomfort you feel but the ability to alter your brain ends long before you are born.

Quote from: Dena on July 06, 2016, 08:35:43 PM
Some portions of the brain are fluid and change as we grow, other areas like sexual preference and gender identity are set before we are born and can't be altered. Possibly an estrogen blocker would reduce the discomfort you feel but the ability to alter your brain ends long before you are born.

Well, dare I ask but, what if I took more estrogen? Will that make me a woman? I don't want to be a man but I really do because it feels normal to me but I don't because I just wanna be what I was supposed to be. I feel like a freak. I hate this. Being trans only brings pain to the sufferer and those around them.

Quote from: King Phoenix on July 06, 2016, 08:38:57 PM
Well, dare I ask but, what if I took more estrogen? Will that make me a woman? I don't want to be a man but I really do because it feels normal to me but I don't because I just wanna be what I was supposed to be. I feel like a freak. I hate this. Being trans only brings pain to the sufferer and those around them.

That won't stop the feelings of being trans.  The evidence indicates that the parts of the brain that are changed due to hormone irregularities and that make one trans become fixed after one is born.  For most, and this is my personal experience too, adding higher levels of T for mtf, or E for ftm, makes the dysphoria more intense and doesn't lessen it at all.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on July 06, 2016, 10:17:21 PM
For most, and this is my personal experience too, adding higher levels of T for mtf, or E for ftm, makes the dysphoria more intense and doesn't lessen it at all.

My experience as well.  When I was given injections of testosterone ("vitamin shots, so you'll grow up right") I just became irritated and confused.  The past several weeks I've been on the anti-androgen spironolactone.  The effect has been the opposite, with reduced dysphoria and a strong sense of calm.

The structures of the brain that differ between genders are not just those linked to sexual reproduction.  It now looks like there are differentiated regions that perform similar functions in a male and female brain, but are tailored to perform those functions in environments with differing levels of testosterone and estrogen compounds.  Put in the wrong mix, and performance is degraded. 

I don't like drugs or pharmaceuticals of any kind, but if there were a drug that would make me cis, I'd be happy to take it. For now, all that's available is the drugs to make me transition, and that helps so I take them as a second-best choice.

Quote from: kellykh on July 07, 2016, 06:26:42 AM
I don't like drugs or pharmaceuticals of any kind, but if there were a drug that would make me cis, I'd be happy to take it. For now, all that's available is the drugs to make me transition, and that helps so I take them as a second-best choice.

I totally get you.