Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've been called upon to do my "civic duty" next week and might end up being on a jury. While I don't mind the idea of doing it, it comes at an inopportune time work wise. But if I have to I have to. I don't have any valid reason to get out of it, and have decided not to tell them that "I'm psychic and already know the defendant is guilty"...

From the point of view of my transition this will be the first time I've been in an environment where I might have to deal, in close proximity for possibly many days, with people who are not only strangers to me but who could also be very hostile to LGBTIQ. I don't anticipate them finding out that I am trans but, given my run in with some random douchebag (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=207496.0) a few weeks ago, I guess anything is possible. I've had the luxury of surrounding my life with people I know and trust, that might still be the case here but I don't see it as being likely. Anyway, it'll be interesting.

Has anyone else done jury duty post transition? How did it go?

They didn't start calling me for jury duty until after I was post surgical and then it was like clockwork once every two years. I lived half way between two courts and I think I should have called about once every four years but they alternated me every two years between the courts.

I never served more than the initial day though once I made it to the jury and was rejected by the lawyer. He must not have liked my looks.  :o  I never had trouble getting along with anybody but most of us had something to keep busy with so there wasn't much socializing.

no body calls me for duty, I guess because I'm disabled.

Quote from: Dena on June 03, 2016, 07:21:00 PM
I never served more than the initial day though once I made it to the jury and was rejected by the lawyer. He must not have liked my looks.  :o 

This is what I'm hoping for. I was reading the stats on the empanelling process in my home state and apparently less than 2% of people who get called actually end up serving on a jury. That seems quite bizarre and wasteful but I suppose once you discount those who might have legitimate reasons to not serve, those that might know the defendant or individuals involved in the trial, those that are knocked out by the defence/prosecution, etc I suppose they need to significantly pad the call up numbers.

Quote from: stephaniec on June 03, 2016, 07:29:07 PM
no body calls me for duty, I guess because I'm disabled.

That generally wouldn't be a barrier where I live unless the disability stopped you from actually being able to serve on the jury. I don't know how they do it in the US but in Australia where everyone is supposed to be on the electoral role which is how they then make the selections, even so some people can go their whole life and never be called - my grandparents weren't for example, and I know people in their 60s who haven't.

they called me once a bunch of years ago , but they wanted me to travel to a suburb way on the other side of the city I live on in the middle of winter and we had a snow blizzard so my therapist told me to not go. I'm guessing the looked up my records and saw that I'm disability so they didn't pursue it.My therapist would of wrote a letter if needed.

I wasn't registered to vote for a long time because I couldn't find anybody worth my time to vote for and that kept me off jury duty. Then they added the drivers licenses to the jury pool and they started calling me. They call a huge number of people here because if they run out of people, they have delay the jury selection process and they don't want to do that. The problem is the lawyers are making last minute deals right up to the moment the jury selection take place so you often don't serve because of a plea bargain.

Here if you are handicap to the point that you are unable to serve, you can be excused from jury duty. However the court will make special accommodations if you need them.

Quote from: Dena on June 03, 2016, 07:56:28 PM
The problem is the lawyers are making last minute deals right up to the moment the jury selection take place so you often don't serve because of a plea bargain.

Something else I'm hoping for!! ;D

I've been on a jury twice since my transition. A few years ago I was on a case involving a bank robbery along with multiple counts of aggravated rape, it was a tragic story. I spent 5 days in the jury room every day deliberating with my fellow jurors on the case. I was their 'IT' gal when it came to watching the bank robbery video. I must have watched the video 50 times myself. It's impossible to unforget it.

If you get a chance to be on a jury I highly recommend it. It's a great way to see how the criminal justice system works.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on June 03, 2016, 08:02:13 PM
If you get a chance to be on a jury I highly recommend it. It's a great way to see how the criminal justice system works.

I'd really like to, but my preference would have been to do it this time next month when I have a slow few weeks at work. I have major work deadlines on Wednesday that will have to get picked up by colleagues if I end up empaneled next week.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on June 03, 2016, 08:02:13 PM
If you get a chance to be on a jury I highly recommend it. It's a great way to see how the criminal justice system works.

Or you could do as one of the judges suggested we become familiar with the justice system, watch My Cousin Vinny. The judge said he was going to buy a copy and leave it in the waiting room so we could watch it the next time we were selected. I was never called back to that court again so I didn't see if he kept his word. Dang, I had to take the link out because it would violate TOS 11, foul language.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 03, 2016, 08:12:31 PM
I'd really like to, but my preference would have been to do it this time next month when I have a slow few weeks at work. I have major work deadlines on Wednesday that will have to get picked up by colleagues if I end up empaneled next week.

They will pick up the slack. It's not many times that the opportunity comes by.

Apparently they don't like you to be too familiar with the legal system... especially the defence. I've watched enough court dramas to understand the highjinx some of them get up to.

Mind you, Australian Courts are more like British Courts... a lot more wigs and gowns and pomposity and tediously boring monologues.

If you really don't want to do it make sure they know your trans. If there's any discrimination it will work to your advantage, and it's all confidential.

Grace, I hope everything works out for the best.

Quote from: Ms GraceMind you, Australian Courts are more like British Courts... a lot more wigs and gowns and pomposity and tediously boring monologues.

The idea of Australians in those 18th century wigs is hilarious , for a number of reasons... 

But I think the tediously boring monologues are universal.

I've always hoped I would get selected for jury duty! Good luck, let us know what happens (well, as much as you're allowed to share  :laugh:).

I've been summoned 4 or 5 times.  In the US it can be for local, state or federal.  I was selected for a federal case and ended up foreman.  This was well before I started transitioning.  But it was fascinating.  I'm surprised the defense kept me on the jury - it was a banking fraud case (with a bunch of sex toys involved!) and I work in the IT dept for a bank. Duh - I know how this stuff works - she was as guilty as the night is dark.  But it was really interesting.

If you can take the pressure of being trans* locked up in a room for a few days with people who really shouldn't care and that you will probably never see again - Do it.  5 days of vacation and I have great stories to tell.

Omg you just reminded me I gotta call and tell them I died, supposed to show up next week. Can't do it, I gotta final. Owe you one geeze.

Nearly 50 years ago my wife readily got out of jury duty by filling out the reply card saying she was "in transition". A few days later she received notice to stay home. It took a couple of decades as well as moving back into in state before ever being called up again.

Where we live, just outside NYC, there is no problem getting a jury pool together. If you aren't picked that day, that's it till next time whenever by some random means you get picked again. Some counties it's the whole week. I've only been called up twice in nearly 40 years, 20+ in this county. She has been called up a few times more never being picked. Got to knock off a book or two.

About 10 years ago she got called up again. Actually got picked for a child endangerment case. After 2 weeks of insanity, the high point being hearing some wild testimony about how the police sketch artist was identified as the attacker by a different young girl in a different town in a case that has nothing to do with hers beyond the cops had a feeling. No two witnesses in hers corroborated the police, each other, and even the alleged victims.

Slam dunk... "Why are we wasting our time?" when adjourned for deliberations. Except she was the only one who was brave enough not to think, "Well the cops arrested him so he MUST be guilty"  No doubt the majority all watched CSI. There was even a lawyer, of the corporate kind.  THOSE kind of closed minded people you don't want to deal with. All of the serious charges the guy was finally acquitted of. But he needed to go down for "Scaring" the two punk girls for yelling at them for torturing a dog. Yes Virginia, it is a crime to yell a kid. Sure Hillary, "It takes a Village..."

She will forever use the "If the cops arrested him he must be innocent" reason for being excused. Worked the past two times for her

Funny coincidence Grace - I have my first spin at jury duty since I transitioned next Monday. I'm not all all worried about other people's opinions - they can just stuff it if they don't like me.

I usually always get picked and it will be interesting to see if that tradition continues post transition.

Never been called, but I have worked for lawyers during jury selection. By far my favorite kind of consulting to do.

Easiest way to get cut loose during jury selection is to express strong opinions that are contrary to the goals of whichever side is asking it at the time. Each lawyer gets a certain number of folks they can say no to, and to save those for the people that matter, most will pre-empt the process by saying if anyone is biased against X, Y, or Z they can step out. At least in the US.

I'd say go give it a shot and see how you feel around the other folks. If you feel at all uncomfortable or like it would truly suck to have to sit with those people everyday for however many days it takes for the trial to run its course, find a good question that you can have an extreme reaction to and get cut.

They usually start the process by asking if anyone has any reason why they can't serve. If it would be bad for you at work this month, you could say that. Some here don't have any sympathy for that though. You could mention that you are trans and say that you have anxiety being around strangers. That may help in a lot of ways.

  I've been called up 4 times. 3 City/State and 1 Federal. Served on 2 juries, both nasty cases. One of those was a first degree murder-for-hire case. There was drama at the end when the judge read out the first verdict of First Degree Murder. Evidently he didn't like the verdict so he overturned the defense table, ran to the assistant DA and socked him in the eye. He was then tackled by the Sheriff's deputies in front of the jury box at my feet and tazed. The judge ordered the excited gallery be cleared. One of the deputies asked the judge "The defendant too?" The judge replied "No! I am not done with him yet!" Then he read the 2 remaining verdicts. I would still serve if they call me up again.

Joelene

Quote from: Joelene9 on June 05, 2016, 12:13:35 AM
  I've been called up 4 times. 3 City/State and 1 Federal. Served on 2 juries, both nasty cases. One of those was a first degree murder-for-hire case. There was drama at the end when the judge read out the first verdict of First Degree Murder. Evidently he didn't like the verdict so he overturned the defense table, ran to the assistant DA and socked him in the eye. He was then tackled by the Sheriff's deputies in front of the jury box at my feet and tazed. The judge ordered the excited gallery be cleared. One of the deputies asked the judge "The defendant too?" The judge replied "No! I am not done with him yet!" Then he read the 2 remaining verdicts. I would still serve if they call me up again.

Joelene

Um. I'm guessing that person is no longer a judge. Lol

Most of my jury duty experiences have been pre-transition. The last time, I was far enough into transition--six months--to be regularly read as male; my voice was in tenor range, and I'd had top surgery. My name wasn't called until the afternoon. We all dutifully trooped upstairs and sat around while the attorneys apparently came to an eleventh-hour plea deal. After that, I was free to go.

I've been called about half a dozen times and have sat on only one jury.

The time before last--pre-transition--was actually the only time I experienced any weirdness. I got to the voir dire stage on a sexual assault case. I was back in the closet about as far as I could go, but I still had a very masculine presentation and, of course, the male name, since I had changed my name well before transition. I guess I came across as a typical male hardass professorial type because I said that my students had to work hard for their grades, or some such thing.

Since I was so deep in denial, I'd never considered the possibility that I would run into any "gender trouble." Naturally, I disclosed, in front of God and everyone, that I had previously been sexually assaulted. Since women are routinely sexually assaulted, I also had not considered the option of disclosing in camera. My goodness, what a scene; the entire room just stopped, and time stood still. The other people in the jury box were staring at me and shifting around uncomfortably, the people sitting right next to me were sort of shrinking away from me, and I stopped the attorney cold right in the middle of his questions. I didn't even realize exactly why everyone was so freaked out until later, when I allowed myself to "realize" that I was trans and had been read as male. How many men just blurt out in public, very matter-of-factly, that they have been raped? Yeah, not too many.

Naturally, I was not chosen to serve on that jury.

I'm not registered to vote so I don't have to do this. I watched 12 Angry Men last week though and now I'm kind of glad I don't have to do this.

I was on a Federal (US) grand jury for 2 years.  It left me very, very cynical about the so-called "justice" system.

(Content note: nasty observations about the US federal grand jury system.)




You spend your two years (not every day, fortunately!!) with the AUSA's (assistant US attorneys), the sometimes cooperative, sometimes terrified and intimidated witnesses, and your other jurors, most of whom don't want to be there and will do whatever it takes to get out as soon as possible.  You quickly become aware that grand juries are entirely used to:

a.  allow the AUSAs to do things they wouldn't ordinarily be able to do by pretending it's the grand jury that's doing them.  (I can't count the number of times that during a hearing an AUSA talked about subpoenas and immunities that our grand jury supposedly issued which we were hearing about for the first time.)

b.   threaten and browbeat witnesses into saying what the AUSA wants to hear,

c.  get all kinds of testimony into the record without anyone questioning it.

d.  rubber-stamp indictments.

Justice plays no part in any of this.  Putting people away isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing.

Virtually all grand jurors think this is entirely proper and to disagree with any part of it is un-American.  You would not believe the crap you get from everyone (jurors and attorneys)  if you so much as ask questions about the pre-written indictment the AUSA hands you.  And one day, in the break room, I dared to mention to some other jurors that our job as grand jurors is to view the prosecution's case with some skepticism, and I was later told that the grand jury administrators got a lot of complaints from other jurors about me saying that.

And don't get me started about how poor defendents' cases are handled.  By the end of my two years, I had become convinced that in the US, you get only as much justice as you can afford.

Quote from: Ellement_of_Freedom on June 05, 2016, 02:35:03 AM
Um. I'm guessing that person is no longer a judge. Lol

No. He was a good judge. He looked like a tiny version of Martin Sheen in the face. He had a bigger presence in the courtroom than the lookalike actor in the movies. That judge overturned an anti-gay ruling. He retired years later at 72.

Joelene

I guess I would view jury duty as a chance for some fellow citizens to see close up the horrible truth about transgender people, that we are normal everyday folks who would rather be somewhere else, just like they would.
Moni

As the (sad) old joke goes:
A persecutor can get a Grand Jury to Indict a Ham Sandwich.

Quote from: Asche on June 05, 2016, 07:12:16 AM
I was on a Federal (US) grand jury for 2 years.  It left me very, very cynical about the so-called "justice" system.

(Content note: nasty observations about the US federal grand jury system.)




You spend your two years (not every day, fortunately!!) with the AUSA's (assistant US attorneys), the sometimes cooperative, sometimes terrified and intimidated witnesses, and your other jurors, most of whom don't want to be there and will do whatever it takes to get out as soon as possible.  You quickly become aware that grand juries are entirely used to:

a.  allow the AUSAs to do things they wouldn't ordinarily be able to do by pretending it's the grand jury that's doing them.  (I can't count the number of times that during a hearing an AUSA talked about subpoenas and immunities that our grand jury supposedly issued which we were hearing about for the first time.)

b.   threaten and browbeat witnesses into saying what the AUSA wants to hear,

c.  get all kinds of testimony into the record without anyone questioning it.

d.  rubber-stamp indictments.

Justice plays no part in any of this.  Putting people away isn't the most important thing, it's the only thing.

Virtually all grand jurors think this is entirely proper and to disagree with any part of it is un-American.  You would not believe the crap you get from everyone (jurors and attorneys)  if you so much as ask questions about the pre-written indictment the AUSA hands you.  And one day, in the break room, I dared to mention to some other jurors that our job as grand jurors is to view the prosecution's case with some skepticism, and I was later told that the grand jury administrators got a lot of complaints from other jurors about me saying that.

And don't get me started about how poor defendents' cases are handled.  By the end of my two years, I had become convinced that in the US, you get only as much justice as you can afford.

Well, I'm out the door to go to court in about two hours. Lucky me it is only a ten minute walk...

Quote from: JoanneB on June 05, 2016, 03:28:37 PM
As the (sad) old joke goes:
A persecutor can get a Grand Jury to Indict a Ham Sandwich.

I don't think we have grand juries in Australia!

Quote from: JoanneB on June 05, 2016, 03:28:37 PM
As the (sad) old joke goes:
A persecutor can get a Grand Jury to Indict a Ham Sandwich.

I no longer think that's a joke.

BTW, I love how you turned "prosecutor" into "persecutor."


ETA:

The reason the USA has grand juries (at the federal level) is that the right to a grand jury is enshrined in the US constitution.  It would take a constitutional amendment to abolish them.  (Defendants can waive their right to one, though.)

At the time the constitution was written, trust in a government superior to the individual states (formerly the 13 colonies) was low, due to experiences with the English government, so it was assumed that a jury composed of upstanding citizens would be a protection against the tyranny of a national government.

For the same reason, it was also assumed that the individual states would be a better protector of the rights of citizens than the national government.

Now, some 225 years later, things have reversed.  Grand juries are at least as happy to throw the book at anyone the national government hands over to them as the AUSAs are and they're less constrained by any understanding of the law.  And it is now the national government that (sometimes) protects citizens from the tyrannies of the states.

Well, phew... I didn't get empanelled. But I did have to hang around with about 120 or so equally unenthusiastic people for three hours before I got told I wouldn't be needed. The good news is that I'm now off the roll for selection for at least the next year now. Given this is the first time in my life I'd been placed on the roll - with those odds - I might be 100 before they call me up again! ;D

Good for you Grace,

I share some of the same experiences as others here and cynically do not consider our "system" much about justice.  I served before transition and reported after I started transition but was not empaneled.  I'll report again in August. The prosecution and defense are allowed to question and dismiss us as they search for those most likely inclined in their favor.  My idle speculation is that a queer transgender person like myself might be considered unreliable for either faction, I'm non binary ;) ;D