Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello fellas.
I hope I dont trigger anyone with my post or make anyone insecure. I just would like to hear some others opinions on this subject.
Everywhere lately I read so much negative content towards the Transgender community and lately while informing myself with my partner about events at the LGBT center I notice things being more complicated.

My question at the moment: Can a lesbian be together with a transman? And it being socially acceptable?

The last 2 years have been a dream for me in finding my relationship with my partner. We both seems to fit like puzzle pieces and we have gone through hell and back (I laid on my death bed for 2 months with liver failure, and she was in a wheel chair with busted knees for half a year and so much more.) She knew going into a relationship with me that I would most likely transtion to a Man. The man I really am. She respects ever aspact of me and refers to me in all the correct manners. Just as I respect her, for saying, I'm lesbian and you are only expection.

I'm just very shocked, about the negativity she and I become by a community we spent a long time of and also by long term friends of hers. I don't understand that if we as partners can look passed all the labels/standards/etc....why do others judge?

Maybe I am missing something very important here or I am blind?
What are your opinions on the subject? Thank you for any answers you all might have! Have a decent day.
Matt.

Whether it works or not is up to you. Yeah, you're probably going to catch a lot of crap from people who don't like to see their little boxes and labels upended. Too bad for them. Life is more complicated than they know. Personally, I think they should just smile, say 'congratulations on finding each other' and close their yaps. Since starting my transition, I've had a lot of stuff hurled my way by so-called feminists, and so-called friends. They've also chosen to criticise my girlfriend (who is mtf). All I can do is ignore it.

I don't see a problem with it. I think the social acceptability depends on the community you're in at the time. I think the trans community is much less likely to have an issue with you dating a lesbian than the likelihood of the lesbian community having an issue with a lesbian dating a transman. It really does depend on the individuals involved though. IME, it is a certain branch of feminism that creates a lot of negative feelings about transgender men and they have HUGE issues with it - both with us for transitioning as AFAB people being attracted to women, and to women who would identify as lesbians but still date us.

Chase Ross has a good video about this on YouTube.

if you were together before you transitioned or whatever, i think it's different. however, if a trans man is still in womens spaces and actively seeks relationships with lesbians, i think that is where the problem lies. why would a trans man be in womens spaces (with the exception of safety concerns, obviously)? why would a trans man actively seek out a lesbian to date, invalidating his identity and even hers? it goes against the whole purpose of being seen as a man. i get WHY people would but i don't agree with it.

i wouldn't date a lesbian because it would make me feel really dysphoric. i am a straight man and i wanna be with a woman who likes men (whether she is bi, straight, whatever, as long as she likes men and would see me as a man). i spent too long wanting to be seen as a man and accepted as a man to deal with people thinking i'm just some lesbian. them seeing me as a lesbian is probably unlikely because i have facial hair, etc. but because of that, i also don't want people to think my lesbian partner is with a man if she is committed to her lesbian label and a proud lesbian. i think that can cause friction and make her feel as if her identity isn't being validated which causes issues in the relationship (i feel this can also happen with straight women who date trans men too). people in the LGBT community usually take awhile to accept who they are, and yes everyone else including the own community tries to invalidate them for going against the "norm" like a lesbian dating a trans man. "oh, you sure you're a man? are you sure you're a lesbian?" so idk.

I know several couples in your situation: where they started out in a lesbian relationship, then one transitioned to male but they kept their relationship, often with the woman still identifying as a lesbian (albeit a lesbian who is in a relationship with a man). I even know one couple where they both started out as lesbians, and then both transitioned to male and are now in a gay male relationship. There are all sorts of possibilities out there: if you love someone, who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

The truth is that the human species is bisexual in nature. Most of us lean more towards one end of the spectrum than the other - but that doesn't mean we can't dabble in the other side if someone takes our fancy. Your girlfriend may identify as lesbian but she may still be attracted to you after transition. She might also still identify as lesbian, but that is her identity - not yours - so it doesn't have to define anything about you.

Personally, I would find it problematic if a straight guy were to be interested in me, because I would feel that would invalidate me as a man. That would just be reducing me to a bunch of body parts rather than respecting me as an individual. It also gives transphobes ammunition with which they can accuse us of being 'really' of our birth sex so they can further invalidate us. For these reasons, I find the whole concept rather problematic - but that shouldn't stop anyone from living their lives as they see fit.

Since my pc is down I apologize for not being able to quote things like I would like to, but thanks for your replies til now!
It is interesting to hear the different opinions people have and how it comes across. In situations like this, I notice how I am again really different in trains of thought. I am a late bloomer tho....which involved alot of therapy.
I do, must admit, have a hard time understanding when people feel looked down upon when someone ends up loving your person and not the outter shell.
At the end of the day, we are souls and the outter shell is a house.
(Damn I really need to work on expressing myself.... -.- )

In the end it is between you two. It's nobody else's business. Hell, people will find anything to moan about when it comes to other people's relationships. I've had plenty of that even before I came out and my relationships appeared "straight" to all intents and purposes to the outside onlooker. People still found something to roll their eyes at. Forget them.

It all comes down to how comfortable you are with her referring to you as her "exception" and how comfortable you both are with certain labels. I'm sure there are lesbians who date cis men as their exceptions too so I don't see it as being disrespectful since she is correctly referring to you as male.

In most of the instances I've seen or heard the transman gets offended when his girlfriend still considers herself a lesbian despite him being male because she's deliberately disregarding his identity and misgendering him just to hang onto a stupid label. That's why that kind of situation is offensive. But your girlfriend doesn't seem to be doing that. It seems to me it's more like "I'm a lesbian and usually attracted to girls but I love this guy so much that he's the exception that." So I don't think that's offensive at all, she doesn't consider you to be a woman.

Quote from: Contravene on June 07, 2016, 11:13:34 AM
It all comes down to how comfortable you are with her referring to you as her "exception" and how comfortable you both are with certain labels. I'm sure there are lesbians who date cis men as their exceptions too so I don't see it as being disrespectful since she is correctly referring to you as male.

In most of the instances I've seen or heard the transman gets offended when his girlfriend still considers herself a lesbian despite him being male because she's deliberately disregarding his identity and misgendering him just to hang onto a stupid label. That's why that kind of situation is offensive. But your girlfriend doesn't seem to be doing that. It seems to me it's more like "I'm a lesbian and usually attracted to girls but I love this guy so much that he's the exception that." So I don't think that's offensive at all, she doesn't consider you to be a woman.

This! Thank you. This was a big pull up.

I agree - this situation only becomes an issue if she's using the label against your will. If any other trans guys are upset by it, tell them that you both know and respect how you both identify and that's what's important.

If you love someone does it really matter what other people think?

It depends on the label and how comfortable with their sexuality they are. I identify as Queer Femme, which  technically is a 'type' of lesbian as my preference is clearly female. However, my wife is trans and non binary, and even if they chose to transition 100% male, which currently being decided upon by them, it would not change my label or identity. I don't give a ninny toot weeny what society chooses to call me, I know I am a Queer Femme, and no matter whom I love or whom I sleep with or even if I am alone in this life, I will ALWAYS be a Queer Femme. My choice of partners does not define me.

Quote from: Feminator on June 07, 2016, 08:24:05 PM
It depends on the label and how comfortable with their sexuality they are. I identify as Queer Femme, which  technically is a 'type' of lesbian as my preference is clearly female. However, my wife is trans and non binary, and even if they chose to transition 100% male, which currently being decided upon by them, it would not change my label or identity. I don't give a ninny toot weeny what society chooses to call me, I know I am a Queer Femme, and no matter whom I love or whom I sleep with or even if I am alone in this life, I will ALWAYS be a Queer Femme. My choice of partners does not define me.

DING DING DING! We have a winner in todays "Make Devlyn Smile" contest!  ;D

Hugs, Devlyn

I mean I personally wouldn't do it, I am a man so why would I date a lesbian, the definition of a lesbian is a woman who is physically, sexually and emotionally attracted to other women, I do not agree with all that sexuality is fluid nonsense its one or the other unless you are bisexual. Now its different if you were to together before transition but even then why? Most lesbians wouldn't date biological men so that comes off as offensive tbh and what's funny is when men hit on lesbians and say they can turn a women straight they will get all mad because they are offended but trans men are an exception for some reason. Makes no since to me. I mean its whatever floats your boat but I only date bisexual girls and straight girls.

 :police:

I think it is time to be very careful here and to think about what you post.

To suggest in a Forum of Gender Diverse people that you do not accept is a rather dumb point of view.

I really don't care on preferences on who you date but if you ever suggest a woman or a man or a non-binary is lesser to you then we will have words.

Warning to all.

Cindy

Quote from: Brandon on June 12, 2016, 02:54:10 PM
I mean I personally wouldn't do it, I am a man so why would I date a lesbian, the definition of a lesbian is a woman who is physically, sexually and emotionally attracted to other women, I do not agree with all that sexuality is fluid nonsense its one or the other unless you are bisexual. Now its different if you gutenberg were to together before transition but even then why? Most lesbians wouldn't date biological men so that comes off as offensive tbh and what's funny is when men hit on lesbians and say they can turn a women straight they will get all mad because they are offended but trans men are an exception for some reason. Makes no since to me. I mean its whatever floats your boat but I only date bisexual girls and straight girls.

Saying that sexuality can only be "one or the other" and can't change is like saying a person can only be male or female and can't change from their birth gender. As transmen we both know (or at least should know) how ridiculous that notion is.

Quote from: Cindy on June 13, 2016, 03:46:41 AM
:police:

I think it is time to be very careful here and to think about what you post.

To suggest in a Forum of Gender Diverse people that you do not accept is a rather dumb point of view.

I really don't care on preferences on who you date but if you ever suggest a woman or a man or a non-binary is lesser to you then we will have words.

Warning to all.

Cindy

I hope I didnt say anything wrong! I didnt want anyone to feel harmed or lesser of....Sorry :(

I am so sorry you are facing rejection in your community. I can't even pretend to say I "get" lesbian culture, but it does seem to go through these authoritarian phases. It's hateful and wrong but here we go again. People aren't trying to understand that sexuality is complicated and some people do have exceptions. (And some don't ... I'm a "gold star" in their book except for the trans thing, but, uh, ya know, that's a big thing. There are frankly very, very few exclusive lesbians who aren't closeted transmen and they're far outnumbered by every flavor of bisexual woman. It's pure hatefulness to try to hold other people in the queer women's community to some sort of impossible standard of sexual purity. What is this, a convent?)

I've seen the hate on tumblr and I'm sure it's reflected elsewhere. I would look for meatspace community where there are more bi/pan/trans people around and stay away from WYYYMYYYN ONLYYY spaces. JM2C.

I don't think bi and mono sexual people are different species. I hear this "sexual orientation isn't fluid unless you're bi". Well, I think lifetime sexual fluidity* of the sort bi people experience probably, yeah, makes you bi, but I also think many if not most monosexual people have a degree of flexibility in their sexuality that our culture doesn't really acknowledge. There was that essay in the NYT by a guy who was lifelong hetero and fell in love with a man. Falling in love is a different set of brain functions than getting a stiffy, okay? It does happen.


*-precessing back and forth between feeling as if you're gay or straight, which can take days, weeks, months, or years

Quote from: FTMax on June 06, 2016, 07:33:34 AM
I don't see a problem with it. I think the social acceptability depends on the community you're in at the time. I think the trans community is much less likely to have an issue with you dating a lesbian than the likelihood of the lesbian community having an issue with a lesbian dating a transman. It really does depend on the individuals involved though. IME, it is a certain branch of feminism that creates a lot of negative feelings about transgender men and they have HUGE issues with it - both with us for transitioning as AFAB people being attracted to women, and to women who would identify as lesbians but still date us.

Chase Ross has a good video about this on YouTube.

Chase usually has something insightful to say.

Let's not kid ourselves that the FTM community is as pure as the driven snow here because there is a clique on Tumblr called truscum that goes out of its way to harass lesbians who date transmen. They literally stake out certain tags and then jump on people who commit what they consider to be thoughtcrimes.

Quote from: Contravene on June 07, 2016, 11:13:34 AM
It all comes down to how comfortable you are with her referring to you as her "exception" and how comfortable you both are with certain labels. I'm sure there are lesbians who date cis men as their exceptions too so I don't see it as being disrespectful since she is correctly referring to you as male.

Great example would be NYC Mayor Bill De Blasio's wife Chirlane McCray.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirlane_McCray

MOST people don't think less of either of them for their marriage. The people who do are haters. LGBT or otherwise.

Quote from: Contravene on June 13, 2016, 04:00:55 AM
Saying that sexuality can only be "one or the other" and can't change is like saying a person can only be male or female and can't change from their birth gender. As transmen we both know (or at least should know) how ridiculous that notion is.

I am sorry but I havering respectfully disagree with that. And uh you don't change your gender you change sex. How are you comparing transitioning to not knowing what you like? I mean no disrespect just curious.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on June 13, 2016, 07:50:54 AM
Chase usually has something insightful to say.

Let's not kid ourselves that the FTM community is as pure as the driven snow here because there is a clique on Tumblr called truscum that goes out of its way to harass lesbians who date transmen. They literally stake out certain tags and then jump on people who commit what they consider to be thoughtcrimes.

There may be some truscum folks who do that, but it isn't a universal activity. Truscum people believe that dysphoria is necessary if you are going to say that you're transgender, and that if you did not experience any kind of dysphoria yet saying you're trans, that you are appropriating the trans identity. Some are exclusionary towards non-binary or agender folks, but again, not a universal thing. The more understandable term for them would probably be that they are transmedicalists.

Apologies to OP, don't mean to derail. I see this get mentioned very rarely on here, so I think it is important to be very clear about what it actually means.

Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2016, 12:24:31 PM
I am sorry but I havering respectfully disagree with that. And uh you don't change your gender you change sex. How are you comparing transitioning to not knowing what you like? I mean no disrespect just curious.

It's no problem, no offense taken. I meant changing sex, I'm just used to using the two terms "gender" and "sex" interchangeably which is a habit I should get out of.

I'm comparing the two because the process of discovering one's sexuality is very similar to the process of discovering one's gender identity. Sexuality can change and a good example of that is how some people who transition experience a shift in their sexuality.

I was trying to give examples of how nothing is just clear cut "one or the other," there aren't moulds that everyone fits into. There are so many different types of sexualities just like there are different types of gender identities.

I guess it can be hard to see how sexuality is fluid unless you've experienced it. For me, I was asexual until I met my fiancée. I discovered that I was romantically and sexually attracted to her so my sexuality changed. So I can understand how there are exceptions to someone's sexuality and how fluid it can be.

Quote from: Contravene on June 13, 2016, 05:16:24 PM
It's no problem, no offense taken. I meant changing sex, I'm just used to using the two terms "gender" and "sex" interchangeably which is a habit I should get out of.

I'm comparing the two because the process of discovering one's sexuality is very similar to the process of discovering one's gender identity. Sexuality can change and a good example of that is how some people who transition experience a shift in their sexuality.

I was trying to give examples of how nothing is just clear cut "one or the other," there aren't moulds that everyone fits into. There are so many different types of sexualities just like there are different types of gender identities.

I guess it can be hard to see how sexuality is fluid unless you've experienced it. For me, I was asexual until I met my fiancée. I discovered that I was romantically and sexually attracted to her so my sexuality changed. So I can understand how there are exceptions to someone's sexuality and how fluid it can be.

Understandable but I prefer not to say my oppinion on that as it might come off as rude.

To say that a lesbian can't be either romantically or sexually attracted to a man is blatant homophobia. If a straight person called attention to a homosexual desire they might have, no one would automatically claim that their sexuality is invalid. Being a lesbian or straight or a man or a woman is about identity, not behavior.

And to that extent, claiming that a lesbian can't be attracted to a trans man is blatant transphobia. Let's face it, if both people are comfortable in the relationship, how are their identities being invalidated? (understandably, if one or both feel invalidated, that's an entirely different situation...) But really, if the only people who have problems with the relationship are people who aren't even involved in it, then there is no real problem!

Quote from: sleepsinallday on June 13, 2016, 06:28:24 PM
To say that a lesbian can't be either romantically or sexually attracted to a man is blatant homophobia. If a straight person called attention to a homosexual desire they might have, no one would automatically claim that their sexuality is invalid. Being a lesbian or straight or a man or a woman is about identity, not behavior.

And to that extent, claiming that a lesbian can't be attracted to a trans man is blatant transphobia. Let's face it, if both people are comfortable in the relationship, how are their identities being invalidated? (understandably, if one or both feel invalidated, that's an entirely different situation...) But really, if the only people who have problems with the relationship are people who aren't even involved in it, then there is no real problem!

Isn't that not even alittle bit controdictary to being trans though? How are you gonna fight to be recognized as a man and then date a lesbian. Just think about that for a second and I am not trying to be rude I just never understood it there are so many bi and straight women who would have no problem dating trans men but you go for a woman who purely likes women. That's the definiton of a lesbian atleast I thought. That makes no type of sense whatsoever I am sorry it just doesn't it to alot of people it seems like it would cause confusion just being honest. Please explain how not a agreeing with a lesbian dating a man is homophobic and please explain how not agreeing with a trans man dating a lesbian is trans phobic because that makes no sense to me at all. I mean its like me preferring mixed girls or latinas, I am not gonna consider the older people in my family racist because they think I should date within my race that's how they were brought up, not saying its right. You see how that sounds?

Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2016, 06:40:59 PM
Isn't that not even alittle bit controdictary to being trans though? How are you gonna fight to be recognized as a man and then date a lesbian. Just think about that for a second and I am not trying to be rude I just never understood it there are so many bi and straight women who would have no problem dating trans men but you go for a woman who purely likes women. That's the definiton of a lesbian atleast I thought. That makes no type of sense whatsoever I am sorry it just doesn't it to alot of people it seems like it would cause confusion just being honest. Please explain how not a agreeing with a lesbian dating a man is homophobic and please explain how not agreeing with a trans man dating a lesbian is trans phobic because that makes no sense to me at all. I mean its like me preferring mixed girls or latinas, I am not gonna consider the older people in my family races because they think I should date within my racist that's how they were brought up, not saying its right. You see how that sounds?

Allow me to clarify a few things...

A woman is not a lesbian because she only dates women, she is a lesbian because that is how she identifies and no one else is allowed to say that she's not a lesbian (regardless of what she does or whom she dates).

A trans man is not a trans man because of the person he dates, he is a trans man because that is how he identifies and no one else is allowed to say that he's not a man (regardless of what he does or whom he dates).

The homophobia and transphobia come in because these strict definitions would NEVER be applied to cishet people. If a woman wants to call herself straight but fools around with women all of the time, people would be up in arms to defend her if she was attacked for her curiosity. The same goes for cis people...if a cis man and a lesbian hooked up, how would that invalidate the cis man's gender? Do you see the double standard here? Putting yourself in the 'lesbian box' or the 'trans box' should not mean sacrificing your personal freedom to uphold some technical definition!

The problem is that if you say that "X person should date Y person because they are Z," you are policing someone's behavior based on their own identity. Everyone is entitled to dictate their own sexual orientation and their own gender. It could be a phase or an experiment, it could be the next chapter of their lives! You don't get a say in how other people should identify, and you don't get to dictate their behavior because it "makes no sense." If a transgender man is comfortable dating someone who self-identifies as a lesbian (and vice versa), then there is no problem! Relationships are not about making things less confusing for other people.

I don't mean to be rude, I just want to be clear.
(and what does this have to do with race?)

Quote from: sleepsinallday on June 13, 2016, 07:12:39 PM
Allow me to clarify a few things...

A woman is not a lesbian because she only dates women, she is a lesbian because that is how she identifies and no one else is allowed to say that she's not a lesbian (regardless of what she does or whom she dates).

A trans man is not a trans man because of the person he dates, he is a trans man because that is how he identifies and no one else is allowed to say that he's not a man (regardless of what he does or whom he dates).

The homophobia and transphobia come in because these strict definitions would NEVER be applied to cishet people. If a woman wants to call herself straight but fools around with women all of the time, people would be up in arms to defend her if she was attacked for her curiosity. The same goes for cis people...if a cis man and a lesbian hooked up, how would that invalidate the cis man's gender? Do you see the double standard here? Putting yourself in the 'lesbian box' or the 'trans box' should not mean sacrificing your personal freedom to uphold some technical definition!

The problem is that if you say that "X person should date Y person because they are Z," you are policing someone's behavior based on their own identity. Everyone is entitled to dictate their own sexual orientation and their own gender. It could be a phase or an experiment, it could be the next chapter of their lives! You don't get a say in how other people should identify, and you don't get to dictate their behavior because it "makes no sense." If a transgender man is comfortable dating someone who self-identifies as a lesbian (and vice versa), then there is no problem! Relationships are not about making things less confusing for other people.

I don't mean to be rude, I just want to be clear.
(and what does this have to do with race?)

Okay, being a gay is something you are tho not how you identify, you are either gay or you're not simple as that. Why don't you look up the definition of a lesbian and see what it means cuz last I knew it was a woman who likes other women in a romantic or sexual way. You can't call yourself a lesbian and still mess with men and vice versa. I am sorry but that is how I feel and it does cause a ton of confusion and how many of those lesbians would date abio male?? Just because someone simply disagrees with you doesn't mean they are homophobic or transphobic. I brung race into this because ot makes since if you think about it. There a lot of people who don't think you should mix races that was my whole point of that.

Quote from: FTMax on June 13, 2016, 02:37:42 PM
There may be some truscum folks who do that, but it isn't a universal activity. Truscum people believe that dysphoria is necessary if you are going to say that you're transgender, and that if you did not experience any kind of dysphoria yet saying you're trans, that you are appropriating the trans identity. Some are exclusionary towards non-binary or agender folks, but again, not a universal thing. The more understandable term for them would probably be that they are transmedicalists.

Apologies to OP, don't mean to derail. I see this get mentioned very rarely on here, so I think it is important to be very clear about what it actually means.

All good! I didnt know the term so its a lil lesson for me.
And I didnt think my question would start a big discussion to be honest.

Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2016, 07:47:13 PM
Okay, being a gay is something you are tho not how you identify, you are either gay or you're not simple as that. Why don't you look up the definition of a lesbian and see what it means cuz last I knew it was a woman who likes other women in a romantic or sexual way. You can't call yourself a lesbian and still mess with men and vice versa. I am sorry but that is how I feel and it does cause a ton of confusion and how many of those lesbians would date abio male?? Just because someone simply disagrees with you doesn't mean they are homophobic or transphobic. I brung race into this because ot makes since if you think about it. There a lot of people who don't think you should mix races that was my whole point of that.

So if your even a little bi does that kick you out of the lesbian club? Seems kind of unaccepting. Can't people just be the way they want without having to conform to a label?
What does it matter that a self professed lesbian likes a trans man? Nothing, except for people who must place everyone in their own little box and if you step out you shall be shunned.
So it is written.
Silly

Quote from: StevieC9 on June 14, 2016, 01:34:15 AM
So if your even a little bi does that kick you out of the lesbian club? Seems kind of unaccepting. Can't people just be the way they want without having to conform to a label?
What does it matter that a self professed lesbian likes a trans man? Nothing, except for people who must place everyone in their own little box and if you step out you shall be shunned.
So it is written.
Silly

I have dated bisexual girls they don't bother me, if you read my earlier post you'd know that and labels mean a lot as they are they are to distinguish people that was the whole purpose of them. Sorry I can't get with it. I mean would you date a gay man?

Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2016, 01:49:58 AM
I have dated bisexual girls they don't bother me, if you read my earlier post you'd know that and labels mean a lot as they are they are to distinguish people that was the whole purpose of them. Sorry I can't get with it. I mean would you date a gay man?

Bisexual is an identity, not a state of being. I label myself as bisexual because I identify with that term for a number of personal reasons, only partially because I am attracted to feminine and masculine people. Have you ever heard of the Kinsey scale? It's a tool used to measure someone's sexual preferences from "strictly heterosexual" to "strictly homosexual." Where someone ranks on the Kinsey scale does not dictate how they are to identify! Not to mention that people's sexualities are subject to change throughout their lifetimes; a label (like gay, pansexual, or bisexual) is used to construct an identity, not declare someone's status for life. Additionally, to claim that I cannot be sexually or romantically attracted to a non-binary person is clear biphobia. I prefer the label bisexual because I don't find myself consistently attracted to non-binary people. That doesn't mean that it never happens. It works the same for gay or straight people who don't consistently feel attraction to certain types of people. People are complicated, I'm sorry if that confuses you.

Please, stop applying your personal experiences/preferences to how you think other people should act. That is on you and has no bearing on how other people can choose to form relationships! It's okay if you can't wrap your head around it, but please stop arguing against people doing what they want with their lives. I, as a woman, might feel invalidated if a man who identifies as gay said he was sexually attracted to me. But sexuality is not monolithic or universal, it exists on a spectrum! How that man identifies suggests that he is only attracted to men, but it does not dictate who he is or whom he can find love with. There could be a number of reasons why he identifies that way even if he finds me attractive, but the entire point is that he feels comfortable with the gay label. You arguing that someone who is gay cannot be sexually attracted to a woman is a blatant attack against his identity and you should be able to recognize how that is homophobic. I may choose to pursue a relationship with a gay man as long as he recognizes and respects the fact that I identify as female (a very similar situation to the op, who's choices are also completely valid).

I am going to stop posting here for now. If you are confused, you should be seeking answers, not arguing against queer people like myself who already have enough ignorance to deal with in our daily lives. If you (or anyone else) have any questions, you can always pm me.

Quote from: FTMax on June 13, 2016, 02:37:42 PM
There may be some truscum folks who do that, but it isn't a universal activity. Truscum people believe that dysphoria is necessary if you are going to say that you're transgender, and that if you did not experience any kind of dysphoria yet saying you're trans, that you are appropriating the trans identity. Some are exclusionary towards non-binary or agender folks, but again, not a universal thing. The more understandable term for them would probably be that they are transmedicalists.

I agree you need dysphoria to be transsexual, otherwise the term loses all meaning, but I would never associate myself with the kind of petty bullying and hurtful statements that truscum is inexorably linked to. Also, focusing over and over on something some jerk did on tumblr once that triggered your dysphoria is the first step to wingnuttery and I refuse to do that to myself. I went back and found the evil posts on the evil blogs and most* of it was one-offs or harmless unless you are the special snowflake you accuse others of being ("A NB person posted their bewbs on fickjatransbods and now I'm having a melt-down because tumblr is supposed to be my manly-man safe space!!!" even though it's a tumblr that is specifically open to NBs. Who's being a tumblerina now? Btw, unfair to ballerinas everywhere, those broads tape it up more than Curt Schilling.)

*-if that gross waste of flesh who taunted ftms with triggery insults meets me on a bus, I will give them an earful, because that was vile

If you've never been on tumblergh*cough*cough* and have no idea what I'm talking about, sorry for derailing the thread and count your lucky stars.

Chase posted a video saying his best friends were truscum and he agrees with everything they says so yeah, there's another face to truscum, but for me it will always be associated with bullying and I don't have to claim that label to acknowledge that GD = GD.

Quote from: StevieC9 on June 14, 2016, 01:34:15 AM
So if your even a little bi does that kick you out of the lesbian club? Seems kind of unaccepting. Can't people just be the way they want without having to conform to a label?
What does it matter that a self professed lesbian likes a trans man? Nothing, except for people who must place everyone in their own little box and if you step out you shall be shunned.
So it is written.
Silly

Quoted for truth

This nonsense goes in cycles. Once upon a time Lesbian was a political label, now it's political but in a different way. There are a lot of notches on that Kinsey scale, why do you have to be a 0/6 to claim an identity and you know what? All it means is did you have these feelings or act on them UP UNTIL NOW.

Quote from: sleepsinallday on June 14, 2016, 08:49:33 AM
Bisexual is an identity, not a state of being. I label myself as bisexual because I identify with that term for a number of personal reasons, only partially because I am attracted to feminine and masculine people. Have you ever heard of the Kinsey scale? It's a tool used to measure someone's sexual preferences from "strictly heterosexual" to "strictly homosexual." Where someone ranks on the Kinsey scale does not dictate how they are to identify! Not to mention that people's sexualities are subject to change throughout their lifetimes; a label (like gay, pansexual, or bisexual) is used to construct an identity, not declare someone's status for life. Additionally, to claim that I cannot be sexually or romantically attracted to a non-binary person is clear biphobia. I prefer the label bisexual because I don't find myself consistently attracted to non-binary people. That doesn't mean that it never happens. It works the same for gay or straight people who don't consistently feel attraction to certain types of people. People are complicated, I'm sorry if that confuses you.

Please, stop applying your personal experiences/preferences to how you think other people should act. That is on you and has no bearing on how other people can choose to form relationships! It's okay if you can't wrap your head around it, but please stop arguing against people doing what they want with their lives. I, as a woman, might feel invalidated if a man who identifies as gay said he was sexually attracted to me. But sexuality is not monolithic or universal, it exists on a spectrum! How that man identifies suggests that he is only attracted to men, but it does not dictate who he is or whom he can find love with. There could be a number of reasons why he identifies that way even if he finds me attractive, but the entire point is that he feels comfortable with the gay label. You arguing that someone who is gay cannot be sexually attracted to a woman is a blatant attack against his identity and you should be able to recognize how that is homophobic. I may choose to pursue a relationship with a gay man as long as he recognizes and respects the fact that I identify as female (a very similar situation to the op, who's choices are also completely valid).

I am going to stop posting here for now. If you are confused, you should be seeking answers, not arguing against queer people like myself who already have enough ignorance to deal with in our daily lives. If you (or anyone else) have any questions, you can always pm me.

It is a free country and I have a right to my oppinion. Second how do you identify as being gay or bi because I thought that was something you were, like when a lot of homosexuals compare being gay to a race, its what you are.  Third, who's arguing cuz no one is, just because I am disagreeing doesn't mean I am arguing. Fourth I am being logical not ignorant and I am not going to seek answers because again it comes off as confusion. Shouldn't you know what you are sexually attracted to? I mean seriously if your bi be happy but in my honest oppinion your sexuality shouldn't shift like that if you are gay or straight.

So like if you only date men and pretty much have only ever have sex with men but are a little bit attracted to women and like to watch het porn, are you gay or bi? It's not so cut in stone, a person could identify either way.

Oh lord, Brandon, I missed where you said this bit: I mean seriously if your bi be happy but in my honest oppinion your sexuality shouldn't shift like that if you are gay or straight.


There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on June 14, 2016, 12:51:43 PM
So like if you only date men and pretty much have only ever have sex with men but are a little bit attracted to women and like to watch het porn, are you gay or bi? It's not so cut in stone, a person could identify either way.

Oh lord, Brandon, I missed where you said this bit: I mean seriously if your bi be happy but in my honest oppinion your sexuality shouldn't shift like that if you are gay or straight.


There are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.

No actually a lot of people would agree with me. I am sorry but I see it as confusion point blank period. I was brought up a certain way and I am not gonna change it.

What can I say? People are more complicated than you think, and you may be confused, but it doesn't mean that they are.

By the by, an opinion is something that - in theory - you've thought about and can reconsider. What you have doesn't seem to be an opinion so much as a rock hard belief. And sure, you're entitled to it.

Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on June 14, 2016, 03:29:41 PM
What can I say? People are more complicated than you think, and you may be confused, but it doesn't mean that they are.

By the by, an opinion is something that - in theory - you've thought about and can reconsider. What you have doesn't seem to be an opinion so much as a rock hard belief. And sure, you're entitled to it.

I am not confused at all, I get what everyone is saying but it doesn't make since, even some homosexuals would agree with me on this and I have thought about but it still doesn't make since and yes I do have certain beliefs about certain things.

Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2016, 02:14:18 PM
No actually a lot of people would agree with me. I am sorry but I see it as confusion point blank period. I was brought up a certain way and I am not gonna change it.

Oh the irony [emoji79]

Quote from: Matti on June 06, 2016, 05:55:04 AM

My question at the moment: Can a lesbian be together with a transman? And it being socially acceptable?

In the LGBTQ community you'd think we'd stop policing each other's sexuality and identity given everything our communities have been through. Unfortunately there are still some in our communities that think everyone like them (or what they deem "normal" or "acceptable) should be accepted by mainstream cis/hetero society, but anyone that doesn't fall into the boxes they think should exist should be policed.

Yes, a lesbian and a transman can be in a relationship and who gives a ->-bleeped-<- who thinks its socially acceptable or not :P I am a transguy and my partner identifies as a queer femme, a dyke, and pansexual. I should also clarify that I was out as a transguy and she knew I was a transguy when we first started dating, and I knew she identified as a queer femme and a dyke. We primarily go to queer events and many of our friends are queer, so among them no one sees any problem whatsoever with us dating. The only ones that have ever really given either of us any ->-bleeped-<- about it tends to be more "traditional" gay/lesbian types who aren't really apart of the queer community. It mostly comes in the form of them telling my girlfriend she must be straight now because she's dating me. Only thing is I don't identify as straight either, but as queer, and as far as either of us are concerned we're in a queer relationship. But for some reason these more "traditional" types refuse to respect how we define our own relationship, and instead want to police things and define our relationship for themselves despite that it has nothing to do with them. Honestly though, most of this kind of policing I've noticed occurs more online than irl. But then I also know other transguys dating queer women or lesbians, so it also depends who you surround yourself with.

The way I see it is it comes down to insecurity on the part of those people doing the policing, or saying they won't accept how others define themselves or their relationships. The funny thing is is it makes them no different than mainstream cis/hetero society who rage against transpeople as delusional or the lgb/queer community as "unnatural" or whatever. Better to ignore them or even go as far as cut them out of your social circle if it really gets bad and they can't keep their thoughts to themselves.

Quote from: invisiblemonsters on June 06, 2016, 08:57:15 AM
if you were together before you transitioned or whatever, i think it's different. however, if a trans man is still in womens spaces and actively seeks relationships with lesbians, i think that is where the problem lies. why would a trans man be in womens spaces (with the exception of safety concerns, obviously)? why would a trans man actively seek out a lesbian to date, invalidating his identity and even hers? it goes against the whole purpose of being seen as a man. i get WHY people would but i don't agree with it.

i wouldn't date a lesbian because it would make me feel really dysphoric. i am a straight man and i wanna be with a woman who likes men (whether she is bi, straight, whatever, as long as she likes men and would see me as a man). i spent too long wanting to be seen as a man and accepted as a man to deal with people thinking i'm just some lesbian. them seeing me as a lesbian is probably unlikely because i have facial hair, etc. but because of that, i also don't want people to think my lesbian partner is with a man if she is committed to her lesbian label and a proud lesbian. i think that can cause friction and make her feel as if her identity isn't being validated which causes issues in the relationship (i feel this can also happen with straight women who date trans men too). people in the LGBT community usually take awhile to accept who they are, and yes everyone else including the own community tries to invalidate them for going against the "norm" like a lesbian dating a trans man. "oh, you sure you're a man? are you sure you're a lesbian?" so idk.

So I guess I am a "problem" then :D I'll come out and say that if I weren't already in a common law relationship I would never date a straight woman. Despite being primarily attracted to women I identify as a queer transguy, not as straight. I prefer to date queer/lesbian/dyke/pansexual women (read: generally not-straight women). It is for no one else to say but me whether or not I am "invalidating" my identity. And it is for no one but my partner to decide whether or not her identity is "invalidated." The problem is not with people's identities but with those who choose to police others.

Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2016, 06:40:59 PM
Isn't that not even alittle bit controdictary to being trans though? How are you gonna fight to be recognized as a man and then date a lesbian. Just think about that for a second and I am not trying to be rude I just never understood it there are so many bi and straight women who would have no problem dating trans men but you go for a woman who purely likes women. That's the definiton of a lesbian atleast I thought. That makes no type of sense whatsoever I am sorry it just doesn't it to alot of people it seems like it would cause confusion just being honest. Please explain how not a agreeing with a lesbian dating a man is homophobic and please explain how not agreeing with a trans man dating a lesbian is trans phobic because that makes no sense to me at all. I mean its like me preferring mixed girls or latinas, I am not gonna consider the older people in my family racist because they think I should date within my race that's how they were brought up, not saying its right. You see how that sounds?

The primary point is that it's not up to you to decide who other people date, and the fact that you see fit to police others or form an "opinion" on the appropriateness of other transmen's relationships says more about you and potential insecurity around your own identity than it does about others.

Quote from: sleepsinallday on June 13, 2016, 07:12:39 PM
Allow me to clarify a few things...

A woman is not a lesbian because she only dates women, she is a lesbian because that is how she identifies and no one else is allowed to say that she's not a lesbian (regardless of what she does or whom she dates).

A trans man is not a trans man because of the person he dates, he is a trans man because that is how he identifies and no one else is allowed to say that he's not a man (regardless of what he does or whom he dates).

The homophobia and transphobia come in because these strict definitions would NEVER be applied to cishet people. If a woman wants to call herself straight but fools around with women all of the time, people would be up in arms to defend her if she was attacked for her curiosity. The same goes for cis people...if a cis man and a lesbian hooked up, how would that invalidate the cis man's gender? Do you see the double standard here? Putting yourself in the 'lesbian box' or the 'trans box' should not mean sacrificing your personal freedom to uphold some technical definition!

The problem is that if you say that "X person should date Y person because they are Z," you are policing someone's behavior based on their own identity. Everyone is entitled to dictate their own sexual orientation and their own gender. It could be a phase or an experiment, it could be the next chapter of their lives! You don't get a say in how other people should identify, and you don't get to dictate their behavior because it "makes no sense." If a transgender man is comfortable dating someone who self-identifies as a lesbian (and vice versa), then there is no problem! Relationships are not about making things less confusing for other people.

I don't mean to be rude, I just want to be clear.
(and what does this have to do with race?)

Spot on 8)

The older i get, the less labels mean to me. Discourse like this helps drive that trend.  :)

Let people be people as one poster above said.

@Berserk,
I have noticed the amount of online negativity is so high online. Though I usually try to think that since you dunno who the person is, they have a hard time expressing themselves or they just enjoy the safe zone behind the PC screen.
Does help to know someone is in somewhat the same shoes! Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Quote from: Berserk on June 15, 2016, 09:02:47 PM
In the LGBTQ community you'd think we'd stop policing each other's sexuality and identity given everything our communities have been through. Unfortunately there are still some in our communities that think everyone like them (or what they deem "normal" or "acceptable) should be accepted by mainstream cis/hetero society, but anyone that doesn't fall into the boxes they think should exist should be policed.

Yes, a lesbian and a transman can be in a relationship and who gives a ->-bleeped-<- who thinks its socially acceptable or not :P I am a transguy and my partner identifies as a queer femme, a dyke, and pansexual. I should also clarify that I was out as a transguy and she knew I was a transguy when we first started dating, and I knew she identified as a queer femme and a dyke. We primarily go to queer events and many of our friends are queer, so among them no one sees any problem whatsoever with us dating. The only ones that have ever really given either of us any ->-bleeped-<- about it tends to be more "traditional" gay/lesbian types who aren't really apart of the queer community. It mostly comes in the form of them telling my girlfriend she must be straight now because she's dating me. Only thing is I don't identify as straight either, but as queer, and as far as either of us are concerned we're in a queer relationship. But for some reason these more "traditional" types refuse to respect how we define our own relationship, and instead want to police things and define our relationship for themselves despite that it has nothing to do with them. Honestly though, most of this kind of policing I've noticed occurs more online than irl. But then I also know other transguys dating queer women or lesbians, so it also depends who you surround yourself with.

The way I see it is it comes down to insecurity on the part of those people doing the policing, or saying they won't accept how others define themselves or their relationships. The funny thing is is it makes them no different than mainstream cis/hetero society who rage against transpeople as delusional or the lgb/queer community as "unnatural" or whatever. Better to ignore them or even go as far as cut them out of your social circle if it really gets bad and they can't keep their thoughts to themselves.

So I guess I am a "problem" then :D I'll come out and say that if I weren't already in a common law relationship I would never date a straight woman. Despite being primarily attracted to women I identify as a queer transguy, not as straight. I prefer to date queer/lesbian/dyke/pansexual women (read: generally not-straight women). It is for no one else to say but me whether or not I am "invalidating" my identity. And it is for no one but my partner to decide whether or not her identity is "invalidated." The problem is not with people's identities but with those who choose to police others.

The primary point is that it's not up to you to decide who other people date, and the fact that you see fit to police others or form an "opinion" on the appropriateness of other transmen's relationships says more about you and potential insecurity around your own identity than it does about others.

Spot on 8)

Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

Hey Brandon, it's true that not many lesbian women would date cis men, though it does happen.  What people are trying to say, however, is that love and attraction sometimes conquers all.  It is a hypothetical situation--said lesbian may see the trans man as 100% male and just be into you so much that she is willing to deviate from the sexuality she was born with for romantic reasons (as we are all CAPABLE of having an intimate relationship with the gender we aren't primarily or naturally attracted to), she may indeed see the trans man as part female since he was AFAB and the trans man is the one who is into them enough to handle this as a personal choice, or the lesbian might be a bit fluid with her sexuality and still identify as a lesbian because she primarily prefers women. 

From what I can tell, you personally would be 100% unwilling to date someone who identifies as lesbian just in case her reasoning was the middle hypothetical (that she sees you as female).  That's okay!  But there are plenty of guys who are willing to take the "risk" or simply don't care as much as you do.  Your point of view is absolutely 100% valid, but not everyone shares it.  So in the end, it's important to live and let live. 

It's great that you want to understand why someone would ever do that, but I think you have received many good points of view and are probably not going to get any better responses.  If it doesn't click at this point it may be best just to shrug your shoulders, say "people will be people!", and drop the issue.  I am in the kink/BDSM community, and one of the first things you learn there is that everybody has their own views on what they like.  Often you can't even imagine why they would do what they do, but one of the rules in the community is that if it is not hurting anyone then just smile and let them be who they are.  I think this applies in this situation as well.

Know that I am not trying to chastise you or anything--I respect how much you want to understand others.  I'm just pointing out that sometimes, no matter HOW hard we think about, we can't understand why people are okay with doing stuff we would never do--just because we wouldn't do it doesn't make it wrong, but it CAN make it hard to comprehend.  At that point it simply becomes frustrating and is often the best time to give them a hug and say "I don't get it, but I'm okay with it, and I am really glad it's what makes you happy." Then maybe, as you continue to spend time with those people outside of debate, you will come to understand later, when you know them better.

I tried to send you a PM, OP, but I couldn't - I hope you are still reading though

I just wanted to send all the support and high-fives in the world to you and your girlfriend. It's hard to be happy in this world, and hard to find someone who you really want to be with. Labels are made to help us, not to be boxes which control how we behave. You owe nothing to anybody but yourself, your girlfriend, and being the best partner you can.

I've had all sorts of ->-bleeped-<- in my time from similar people. Been called a traitor to womanhood for dating a cisman. Been bullied by other bisexuals for being the sort of bisexual who dates cismen instead of, you know, cool queer trans men or whatever. This stuff really affects you and mucks up your perception and impacts stuff.

For me it always felt a lot like when a guy sidles up to you on the bus, and you know he's hitting on you, but if you ask him to stop suddenly he denies all knowledge - but you *know* in your gut what he meant. So, people talking about the patriarchy in general terms and then implying that bisexual women dating men aren't really queer, and I'm sitting there thinking...hang on...but if I say anything they reply "oh, not you, but we were talking about how problematic it is on a societal level and as oppressed people we have the right to critique the cisheteropatriarchy because we can't possibly hurt anyone, we are so oppressed". You let it slide. Five minutes later, they're implying your boyfriend is a rapist, and you're not committed to LGBT rights because you won't sleep with them.

You get the idea.

None of those people are in my life any more.

And it never stops: I'm marginally more cool now, because I'm not dating a straight guy any more and I'm more out about my gender. But my new boyfriend - a cis, gay man - is too nervous to go to Pride with me because I don't pass and he doesn't want to put up with this bull->-bleeped-<-. He's not too nervous of getting, you know, shot or outed to his parents. He's nervous about that rejection by our queer fellows. He sends me nervous texts whenever I go to lgbt groups, because he's worried about me dumping him for someone more Radical. 

Bad times.

Balls through it, friend. You can even use it as a litmus test. Anyone who gives you the slightest pushback, critique, or gut-feeling about your personal relationship is not the sort of person you want to hang around with.
 
Your relationship is chillin out in your pajamas, bringing cups of tea when each other are ill, surprise notes on the fridge and lending each other books. Your relationship is not a tool of the queer resistance, or an example of how problematic trans male politics can be, or any of that ->-bleeped-<-. Cut anyone out of your life who tries to use it as one. There are plenty of accepting people, find them. And I hate to say it, but often the people most accepting of this kind of thing are not necessarily people who are super super into lgbt politics. You'd hope that people who think a lot about gender/sexuality/fluidity would understand. I've found they can be far more dogmatic.

And get yourself a copy of Bob & Rose, the fuzzy sitcom about a gay man who inexplicably falls in love with a woman. It's adorable and very affirming for those of us who don't fit the boxes right.

Quote from: MichaelTolliverLives on June 16, 2016, 10:56:31 AM
I tried to send you a PM, OP, but I couldn't - I hope you are still reading though

I just wanted to send all the support and high-fives in the world to you and your girlfriend. It's hard to be happy in this world, and hard to find someone who you really want to be with. Labels are made to help us, not to be boxes which control how we behave. You owe nothing to anybody but yourself, your girlfriend, and being the best partner you can.

I've had all sorts of ->-bleeped-<- in my time from similar people. Been called a traitor to womanhood for dating a cisman. Been bullied by other bisexuals for being the sort of bisexual who dates cismen instead of, you know, cool queer trans men or whatever. This stuff really affects you and mucks up your perception and impacts stuff.

For me it always felt a lot like when a guy sidles up to you on the bus, and you know he's hitting on you, but if you ask him to stop suddenly he denies all knowledge - but you *know* in your gut what he meant. So, people talking about the patriarchy in general terms and then implying that bisexual women dating men aren't really queer, and I'm sitting there thinking...hang on...but if I say anything they reply "oh, not you, but we were talking about how problematic it is on a societal level and as oppressed people we have the right to critique the cisheteropatriarchy because we can't possibly hurt anyone, we are so oppressed". You let it slide. Five minutes later, they're implying your boyfriend is a rapist, and you're not committed to LGBT rights because you won't sleep with them.

You get the idea.

None of those people are in my life any more.

And it never stops: I'm marginally more cool now, because I'm not dating a straight guy any more and I'm more out about my gender. But my new boyfriend - a cis, gay man - is too nervous to go to Pride with me because I don't pass and he doesn't want to put up with this bull->-bleeped-<-. He's not too nervous of getting, you know, shot or outed to his parents. He's nervous about that rejection by our queer fellows. He sends me nervous texts whenever I go to lgbt groups, because he's worried about me dumping him for someone more Radical. 

Bad times.

Balls through it, friend. You can even use it as a litmus test. Anyone who gives you the slightest pushback, critique, or gut-feeling about your personal relationship is not the sort of person you want to hang around with.
 
Your relationship is chillin out in your pajamas, bringing cups of tea when each other are ill, surprise notes on the fridge and lending each other books. Your relationship is not a tool of the queer resistance, or an example of how problematic trans male politics can be, or any of that ->-bleeped-<-. Cut anyone out of your life who tries to use it as one. There are plenty of accepting people, find them. And I hate to say it, but often the people most accepting of this kind of thing are not necessarily people who are super super into lgbt politics. You'd hope that people who think a lot about gender/sexuality/fluidity would understand. I've found they can be far more dogmatic.

Thanks mate! I will take your words to heart for sure.
And I noticed that with the messaging people...I dont know why I cant... :/ My skype should work tho.

I don't have time to read all the posts so maybe it was mentioned, but I recommend reading "Queerly Beloved," by Diane and Jacob Anderson-Minshall.

Quote from: Matti on June 16, 2016, 12:29:15 AM
@Berserk,
I have noticed the amount of online negativity is so high online. Though I usually try to think that since you dunno who the person is, they have a hard time expressing themselves or they just enjoy the safe zone behind the PC screen.
Does help to know someone is in somewhat the same shoes! Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Yeah its hard to tell which. Sometimes I think it is the hiding behind a screen thing. I think some people just feel insecure because somehow they think that your relationship as a transguy somehow reflects on them as transguys. Like the cis straight people who see those of us that don't fit the box are gonna judge them cause of it, so then they decide to start policing because of that insecurity. Thing is, it isn't our responsibility to baby their egos or insecurities. We all have our right to our personal happiness. I dunno. I think also part of it is we are really more exposed to all sorts of people online versus irl. You definitely find out who your friends are irl for sure, and there are folks who will say that kind of ->-bleeped-<- to your face for sure. But I think its just a case of picking your social circle and finding supportive folks. I think over time that kind of thing or fear of judgement is just something you get over too. Once you're in the thick of your relationship and you have each other at least I find others' opinions become less important.

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

I wouldn't say I've bypassed that at all. Think I gave some pretty straight up answers in my last post. So to put it bluntly: I don't care if those lesbians would date cis men or not. My current gf has dated cis men, but before we started dating she was mainly dating queer femmes. But neither of that matters to either of us. Our relationship is our relationship. Being a cis man is not the be all and end all of manliness. I don't judge myself as a guy based on how close I meet "the cis standard." I can be a fully legitimate guy without thinking of myself as exactly the same a cis guy. I'm not and I won't ever be. Life isn't so black and white. Not just for trans people but for cis people too.

Quote from: StevieC9 on June 14, 2016, 05:59:51 PM
Oh the irony [emoji79]

Ha ha, ebony in irony! Oh man, risky wouldn't you say? Anyway, let the moderators moderate and the biological... thing over there will date this... ah, too complicated, let's all be human ok? This is starting to feel like a comentary page on YT, I never thought I'd see this here but still, how many....

                                                                      Peace and harmony, Rose.

For me, I couldn't do it. I have only dated straight women, and will only ever be with straight women. That is on me, though and my own dysphoria. If you're comfortable in your relationship, then remain part of that relationship. If the two of you want it, and want to make it work, then who cares what others think. As long as you're both comfortable.

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

tbh it's not up to us to decide who any given lesbian would or should date

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

I don't know how many would, nor do I care. That's her decision, and it isn't my place to hate on her, her partner, or their relationship by questioning its validity or how either of them identify.

Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on June 17, 2016, 02:46:48 PM
I don't know how many would, nor do I care. That's her decision, and it isn't my place to hate on her, her partner, or their relationship by questioning its validity or how either of them identify.

Who's hating on their relationship cuz I sure as heck ain't lol, I just think it does not make any type of since to date a lesbian if you are a man. No since at all. Its whatever floats his little boat tho.

Well, there's having an opinion, and there's having an opinion and stating it so many times that the thread becomes about you instead of the OP...

Quote from: Peep on June 17, 2016, 06:09:31 PM
Well, there's having an opinion, and there's having an opinion and stating it so many times that the thread becomes about you instead of the OP...

You know what Imma be nice, I apologize if I offended anyone with my views I haven't been in the best if moods, no I still don't agree with lesbians dating trans men or vice versa . I have certain views and Imma stick with them but I'd appreciate if y'all would hop off my tip because of the views that I hold. You wanna stay with her fine but I do still think its confusion.

Locked.

I think we should have lessons on discussion, debate and passing on information.

I think we should also have a review of our opinions on tolerance and acceptance.

If you disagree with someone why not say 'I disagree, you do not seem to understand my point, let us move on.

There are many instances in history, even recent events, that this attitude was not taken and all it results in is pain.

Cindy