Community Conversation => Transsexual talk => Male to female transsexual talk (MTF) => Topic started by: stephanie_craxford on January 21, 2006, 03:37:20 PM Return to Full Version
Title: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 21, 2006, 03:37:20 PM
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 21, 2006, 03:37:20 PM
Lets see if we can get some discussion going. Here is the Question:
So what do you think makes the female?
OK, here are the rules:
Only transsexual MtF's should reply, no GG's please. After the topic seems to running out of steam then the GG's should jump in and add what they think.
Steph
So what do you think makes the female?
OK, here are the rules:
Only transsexual MtF's should reply, no GG's please. After the topic seems to running out of steam then the GG's should jump in and add what they think.
Steph
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Teri Anne on January 22, 2006, 01:16:44 AM
Post by: Teri Anne on January 22, 2006, 01:16:44 AM
What makes the Female? There are the stereotypes, of course, "pretty, witty and wise." Almost makes women sound like court jesters. Like we're good for entertainment. Madam Curie or Mother Theresa would probably say that their life is more one of bringing good things like medicine or peaceful coexistence to society. Others will swear that men's math skills are better and women's speaking skills are better. Some will say that women are more emotional...having taken hormones, I think that chemical would make ANY man more emotional. I remember a woman friend of mine saying that when she was in college in the early sixties, she, like other coeds, received a booklet that proclaimed, "Let's face it, girls. You're here to find your man." It was frowned upon, in my friend's circle, to be studious...that was for not-pretty girls.
I've heard from several post-op TS's that feel that, once fully transitioned, that there really isn't that much difference between men and women...that a lot of what we attribute to being female is bunk, social conditioning and propoganda. It kind of makes some TS's wonder if the trip to being female was worth it. For me, it has been better being female for one main reason...women are allowed a wider field of actions (hugging, emoting, dressing) than men. To me, being female is not being in the societally confined box that many males are in (socially, not job-wise). 'Course if I was born in Saudia Arabia, I would probably be singing another tune. Probably in bass.
Teri Anne
I've heard from several post-op TS's that feel that, once fully transitioned, that there really isn't that much difference between men and women...that a lot of what we attribute to being female is bunk, social conditioning and propoganda. It kind of makes some TS's wonder if the trip to being female was worth it. For me, it has been better being female for one main reason...women are allowed a wider field of actions (hugging, emoting, dressing) than men. To me, being female is not being in the societally confined box that many males are in (socially, not job-wise). 'Course if I was born in Saudia Arabia, I would probably be singing another tune. Probably in bass.
Teri Anne
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 01:25:55 AM
Post by: Leigh on January 22, 2006, 01:25:55 AM
What do I think?
When the only time I think about what was is when I am here. Otherwise it just never enters my concious thought about what was. When my mind cannot comprehend any other way of life-thats what makes a woman.
When the only time I think about what was is when I am here. Otherwise it just never enters my concious thought about what was. When my mind cannot comprehend any other way of life-thats what makes a woman.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Hazumu on January 22, 2006, 05:14:27 PM
Post by: Hazumu on January 22, 2006, 05:14:27 PM
Gee, another tough question.
I agree with Terri Anne's assessment of being allowed a wider latitude in what is behaviorally allowed by western society. One of the things I always envied about women (back when I was telling myself you-can-never-change-get-over-it,) was the things they could do that male-me wasn't allowed to do (or, couldn't allow myself to do.) I've always felt women were somehow magical in that respect.
As far as the work/job axis, I thank my lucky stars I've found work in various creative fields. I'll probably end up with the gender pay cut after transition, but I still should be able to do what I like, even though I've become the 'weaker sex,' whateverthehell that means.
And I'm eagerly awaiting the start of my own HRT for the releasing of the shackles on my emotions -- one of the things that led to my decision to transition was realizing that my creative muse was my feminine side. And I'd like to become much more intimate with my muse ;-)
Sorry, this still doesn't answer Stephanie's question. Actually, I have a hard time articulating it -- it's much more a 'feel' thing. I have a vivid impression of what I want the post-transition me to be like. It's weird. I can picture myself at various activites -- at work with clients, visiting old friends (the ones that still support me after transition,) traveling, at home curled up with a good book (what a cliche, but somehow appealing,) -- and in all my imaginings I picture myself suffused with the quality of 'femininity'. But for some reason I have trouble breaking 'femininity' into smaller units. But I'd love to see if you can pry that word/quality apart into ingredients. It might help me focus on what it is I'm seeking.
Haz
I agree with Terri Anne's assessment of being allowed a wider latitude in what is behaviorally allowed by western society. One of the things I always envied about women (back when I was telling myself you-can-never-change-get-over-it,) was the things they could do that male-me wasn't allowed to do (or, couldn't allow myself to do.) I've always felt women were somehow magical in that respect.
As far as the work/job axis, I thank my lucky stars I've found work in various creative fields. I'll probably end up with the gender pay cut after transition, but I still should be able to do what I like, even though I've become the 'weaker sex,' whateverthehell that means.
And I'm eagerly awaiting the start of my own HRT for the releasing of the shackles on my emotions -- one of the things that led to my decision to transition was realizing that my creative muse was my feminine side. And I'd like to become much more intimate with my muse ;-)
Sorry, this still doesn't answer Stephanie's question. Actually, I have a hard time articulating it -- it's much more a 'feel' thing. I have a vivid impression of what I want the post-transition me to be like. It's weird. I can picture myself at various activites -- at work with clients, visiting old friends (the ones that still support me after transition,) traveling, at home curled up with a good book (what a cliche, but somehow appealing,) -- and in all my imaginings I picture myself suffused with the quality of 'femininity'. But for some reason I have trouble breaking 'femininity' into smaller units. But I'd love to see if you can pry that word/quality apart into ingredients. It might help me focus on what it is I'm seeking.
Haz
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Kimberly on January 26, 2006, 06:25:26 AM
Post by: Kimberly on January 26, 2006, 06:25:26 AM
> So what do you think makes the female?
A good question.
You know, I don't really think I have an answer either.
I think a guy would say looks. Ask me and I'm afraid I'd say we are too priceless to compare. *giggle*
Good traits however are honestly, determination, compassion, acceptance, tenacity, intelligence... hum, I see I'm just listing the traits I like... for anyone.
I think I was right the first time, I'm not sure how to answer.
A good question.
You know, I don't really think I have an answer either.
I think a guy would say looks. Ask me and I'm afraid I'd say we are too priceless to compare. *giggle*
Good traits however are honestly, determination, compassion, acceptance, tenacity, intelligence... hum, I see I'm just listing the traits I like... for anyone.
I think I was right the first time, I'm not sure how to answer.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Northern Jane on January 27, 2006, 11:06:18 AM
Post by: Northern Jane on January 27, 2006, 11:06:18 AM
Ok, I'll take a shot at this one. It's tough but here are a few of the things I have noticed after 30+ years of "assimilation":
1) Women generally LISTEN to what you say, especially if you are responding to their question.
2) Women almost invariably are interested in feelings - how you FELT about something that happened - and lend immediate emotional support. Men just want to rush out and "fix" the problem.
3) Women will tend to empathize with you (trying to put themselves in your situation) whereas a man will related to the situation as "how he would have handled it".
There are more and these are only gross generaliziations, but it is some of the things I have seen that are pretty constant.
1) Women generally LISTEN to what you say, especially if you are responding to their question.
2) Women almost invariably are interested in feelings - how you FELT about something that happened - and lend immediate emotional support. Men just want to rush out and "fix" the problem.
3) Women will tend to empathize with you (trying to put themselves in your situation) whereas a man will related to the situation as "how he would have handled it".
There are more and these are only gross generaliziations, but it is some of the things I have seen that are pretty constant.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: gina_taylor on January 27, 2006, 01:18:32 PM
Post by: gina_taylor on January 27, 2006, 01:18:32 PM
First I'd agree with what Terri Ann said: that there really isn't that much difference between men and women...that a lot of what we attribute to being female is bunk, social conditioning and propoganda. I personally feel that what makes the woman is being able to fit into society and being able to feel as though she fits in with what is expected of her and not being put down just because she is a woman. There are times when ideas by men are looked upon as being higher up just because they are men and when an idea by a woman is suggested it's only given half credit. Equality is what I'd like to see. :)
Gina
Gina
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 27, 2006, 07:12:50 PM
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 27, 2006, 07:12:50 PM
Why be so cranky about a question? I only posed the question for interest sake, something to think about and to spark some conversation. I would somewhat agree that TS women seem to worry so much about things and some would think that we "worry about so little". It's almost like asking "Why are we here" in the Spirituality Forum.
What you say is quite true the only thing that makes a bio woman are "Two "x" chromosomes. Period.". Sooooooo it would seem that this whole TS thing is just smoke and mirrors. Based on this you, and everyone else will never be a true woman, no mater what, no matter what. :-\
I'm a woman, some would call me a transsexual woman, but I'm still a woman, a woman with a birth defect. Every woman is different in heart, soul and mind, and each is a unique collection of metaphors.
Steph
What you say is quite true the only thing that makes a bio woman are "Two "x" chromosomes. Period.". Sooooooo it would seem that this whole TS thing is just smoke and mirrors. Based on this you, and everyone else will never be a true woman, no mater what, no matter what. :-\
I'm a woman, some would call me a transsexual woman, but I'm still a woman, a woman with a birth defect. Every woman is different in heart, soul and mind, and each is a unique collection of metaphors.
Steph
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: DawnL on January 30, 2006, 10:03:38 AM
Post by: DawnL on January 30, 2006, 10:03:38 AM
Sorry Steph, I deleted that post. True or not, I may have unintentionally insulted some of you with my take on what defines female. Note to self: refrain from posting in a cranky mood :-[
In my defense, I was off my hormones for a few days :icon_blah:
Dawn
In my defense, I was off my hormones for a few days :icon_blah:
Dawn
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 30, 2006, 10:15:02 AM
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 30, 2006, 10:15:02 AM
Heck dawn if you didn't ever get cranky then you would be human :) I wan't insulted though, and I don't think anyone else was either. Been there, done that, but didn't get the Tee Shirt cause I was soooooo cranky :)
Steph
Steph
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Sarah Louise on January 30, 2006, 10:18:23 AM
Post by: Sarah Louise on January 30, 2006, 10:18:23 AM
I will admit I thought the topic was strange when I first read it and wasn't sure I could answer it, but I guess I will step in and give my off the wall answer.
To me only two things make a woman, being born one (ie Genetic woman) or feeling that your body is incorrect and doing what you can to correct it. So I am saying body and/or mind.
Trying to go into general society definations seems to be hard since society defines gender roles different each generation. Society changes the rules all the time. For a while if a woman wore a bra she was considered a "whore" (sorry for that). Then later if a woman Didn't wear a bra she was considered a "whore".
Oh well.
Sarah L.
My definition is probably poorly worded, but I hope you get the idea I was trying to put forth.
To me only two things make a woman, being born one (ie Genetic woman) or feeling that your body is incorrect and doing what you can to correct it. So I am saying body and/or mind.
Trying to go into general society definations seems to be hard since society defines gender roles different each generation. Society changes the rules all the time. For a while if a woman wore a bra she was considered a "whore" (sorry for that). Then later if a woman Didn't wear a bra she was considered a "whore".
Oh well.
Sarah L.
My definition is probably poorly worded, but I hope you get the idea I was trying to put forth.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Hazumu on January 30, 2006, 12:42:08 PM
Post by: Hazumu on January 30, 2006, 12:42:08 PM
(revisiting this topic) Great question, Stephanie! And the fact there's as yet no definitive answer is VERY interesting.
This morning I started reading Kate Borenstein's Gender Outlaw (one of the books I bought as study material for transition.) I'm a little over halfway through, and I haven't found an answer to your question there, but the questions Kate asks and the viewpoints she puts herself and the reader in are good for framing the question you asked.
Society defines gender as either/or. Kate makes the case that it's a multi-dimensioned continuum with two nodes around which most people cluster, or are forced to cluster.
Further, she presents society's gender rules, as stated in Harold Garfinkle's book, Studies in Ethnomethodology--
1. There are two, and only two, genders.
2. One's gender is invariant.
3. Genitals are the essential sign of gender.
4. Any exception to two genders are not to be taken seriously.
5. There are no transfers from one gender to another except ceremonial ones.
6. Everyone must be classified as one gender or another.
7. The male/female dichotomy is a 'natural' one.
8. Membership in one gender or another is 'natural'.
And I personally think the above rules are so much organic fertilizer. But in general, society has internalized these rules and will agressively defend them. Which is why so many T-women are virtually obsessed with passing (myself included.) If you're caught violating the rules, you're punished.
But this still doesn't answer the question what 'makes' one Female.
Maybe we can get to the answer by asking what ISN'T Female.
Generally, it seems;
Males TAKE. Females SHARE.
Males are territorial. (HELP! Is there a Female trait that's the converse for territorial?)
Males see others more as objects to be used, Females see others more as people to be related to/with.
Males organize by determining who leads and who is led, and then performing in those roles (a weak male will enhance his power by choosing a powerful leader to be led by -- one of the reasons males intensely identify with powerful sports teams, I suspect.) Females organize by conspiring and co-operating.
Feel free to add to this list -- it's only a start.
Is being Female a willingness to be vulnerable? One of the cliche bits of feminie body language is holding the hand back in such a way the wrists are bared (and it's interesting that this is seen as displaying vulnerability.) In fact, much 'feminine' body language and body positions can be seen as showing vulnerability. And why vulnerability? Is it because it triggers a protective instinct? (JOKE: Why are babies so cute? To keep ya' from killin' 'em.) I don't know the answer, I just ask the question.
Is it a desire to be nurturing towards others?
Is it being more open to touching/being touched, hugging/being hugged by those who we allow to be close to us? Is it being more open to (non sexual) intimacy with those we are close to?
I know I have more questions, but I can't articulate them just yet.
Dammit, Stephanie, you asked a really good question!
Haz
This morning I started reading Kate Borenstein's Gender Outlaw (one of the books I bought as study material for transition.) I'm a little over halfway through, and I haven't found an answer to your question there, but the questions Kate asks and the viewpoints she puts herself and the reader in are good for framing the question you asked.
Society defines gender as either/or. Kate makes the case that it's a multi-dimensioned continuum with two nodes around which most people cluster, or are forced to cluster.
Further, she presents society's gender rules, as stated in Harold Garfinkle's book, Studies in Ethnomethodology--
1. There are two, and only two, genders.
2. One's gender is invariant.
3. Genitals are the essential sign of gender.
4. Any exception to two genders are not to be taken seriously.
5. There are no transfers from one gender to another except ceremonial ones.
6. Everyone must be classified as one gender or another.
7. The male/female dichotomy is a 'natural' one.
8. Membership in one gender or another is 'natural'.
And I personally think the above rules are so much organic fertilizer. But in general, society has internalized these rules and will agressively defend them. Which is why so many T-women are virtually obsessed with passing (myself included.) If you're caught violating the rules, you're punished.
But this still doesn't answer the question what 'makes' one Female.
Maybe we can get to the answer by asking what ISN'T Female.
Generally, it seems;
Males TAKE. Females SHARE.
Males are territorial. (HELP! Is there a Female trait that's the converse for territorial?)
Males see others more as objects to be used, Females see others more as people to be related to/with.
Males organize by determining who leads and who is led, and then performing in those roles (a weak male will enhance his power by choosing a powerful leader to be led by -- one of the reasons males intensely identify with powerful sports teams, I suspect.) Females organize by conspiring and co-operating.
Feel free to add to this list -- it's only a start.
Is being Female a willingness to be vulnerable? One of the cliche bits of feminie body language is holding the hand back in such a way the wrists are bared (and it's interesting that this is seen as displaying vulnerability.) In fact, much 'feminine' body language and body positions can be seen as showing vulnerability. And why vulnerability? Is it because it triggers a protective instinct? (JOKE: Why are babies so cute? To keep ya' from killin' 'em.) I don't know the answer, I just ask the question.
Is it a desire to be nurturing towards others?
Is it being more open to touching/being touched, hugging/being hugged by those who we allow to be close to us? Is it being more open to (non sexual) intimacy with those we are close to?
I know I have more questions, but I can't articulate them just yet.
Dammit, Stephanie, you asked a really good question!
Haz
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Northern Jane on January 30, 2006, 07:24:51 PM
Post by: Northern Jane on January 30, 2006, 07:24:51 PM
QuoteWhat you say is quite true the only thing that makes a bio woman are "Two "x" chromosomes. Period.".
Then don't read the medical materials on intersexed conditions - that blow that theory out of the water!
Having though about the question, I'd offer another comment from 30+ years as one - if you live among women, understand most of them, share their thoughts and feelings about things, and are accepted by them as one of them , if you find you share most of the same hopes and fears, then you ARE one.
Of course their are cultural context and a bunch of other "social" factors which predominate in women's lives but if you rules out all the social, cultural, and emotional factors then you must be left with only ONE definition of female - the ability to bear young. Fortunately we are not animals and it is all the other factors that carry much more weight than popping babies!
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Leigh on January 31, 2006, 12:21:20 AM
Post by: Leigh on January 31, 2006, 12:21:20 AM
Quote from: Northern Jane on January 30, 2006, 07:24:51 PM
then you must be left with only ONE definition of female - the ability to bear young.
Not all women are born with that ability and (gasp) some run screaming at the thought of bearing children.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Alison on January 31, 2006, 10:38:06 AM
Post by: Alison on January 31, 2006, 10:38:06 AM
Quote from: Leigh on January 31, 2006, 12:21:20 AM
Not all women are born with that ability and (gasp) some run screaming at the thought of bearing children.
Sorry, I know GG's aren't supposed to post, but I had to interject -- yeah thats me... no pregnancy for me please, thank.you.very.much ;)
Back to your regularly scheduled program :)
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Cassandra on January 31, 2006, 01:55:22 PM
Post by: Cassandra on January 31, 2006, 01:55:22 PM
Allison,
Any member can post in any forum they so choose as long as it's topical.
Cassie
Any member can post in any forum they so choose as long as it's topical.
Cassie
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 31, 2006, 05:57:32 PM
Post by: stephanie_craxford on January 31, 2006, 05:57:32 PM
That's very true Melissa,
So lets see what the GGirls have to say about this question :)
Steph
So lets see what the GGirls have to say about this question :)
Steph
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Alison on February 01, 2006, 02:22:05 PM
Post by: Alison on February 01, 2006, 02:22:05 PM
well...
I don't really have an answer...
I don't know what makes the[/u] Female.
What makes Me Female? Not sure about that either... other then I just am.
I'm hardly a stereotypical woman.
I hate makeup
I hate dresses/skirts
I further hate pantyhose
..and even further hate high heels
I don't wear jewelry (other then my wedding ring)
I have no desire to give birth
I don't enjoy menstruating. (It only lasts 3 days anyway, I really would just rather not.)
I don't have any desire to have the figure of a twig with boobs
I can't cook
I'm a lousy housekeeper
I married the guy I loved..... I assumed myself to be straight, that guy turned out wasn't really a guy... and I stayed anyway, compleatly reevaluating my sexual preferances in the process...
So I have no idea what "makes me a woman" other then the fact that.... I am. and I have no desire to be anything but.
I don't really have an answer...
I don't know what makes the[/u] Female.
What makes Me Female? Not sure about that either... other then I just am.
I'm hardly a stereotypical woman.
I hate makeup
I hate dresses/skirts
I further hate pantyhose
..and even further hate high heels
I don't wear jewelry (other then my wedding ring)
I have no desire to give birth
I don't enjoy menstruating. (It only lasts 3 days anyway, I really would just rather not.)
I don't have any desire to have the figure of a twig with boobs
I can't cook
I'm a lousy housekeeper
I married the guy I loved..... I assumed myself to be straight, that guy turned out wasn't really a guy... and I stayed anyway, compleatly reevaluating my sexual preferances in the process...
So I have no idea what "makes me a woman" other then the fact that.... I am. and I have no desire to be anything but.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: stephanie_craxford on February 01, 2006, 03:23:00 PM
Post by: stephanie_craxford on February 01, 2006, 03:23:00 PM
I love your answer Alison :)
Steph
Steph
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: melissa_girl on February 01, 2006, 03:58:00 PM
Post by: melissa_girl on February 01, 2006, 03:58:00 PM
That's why I didn't post a response to the question. I just couldn't put my finger on anything. But that's good. I just am.
Melissa
Melissa
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: stephanie_craxford on February 01, 2006, 06:09:41 PM
Post by: stephanie_craxford on February 01, 2006, 06:09:41 PM
Ah Melissa,
Don't be shy - "I just am" - Yep I would agree 100% but why are you "just am" :)
Steph
Don't be shy - "I just am" - Yep I would agree 100% but why are you "just am" :)
Steph
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: melissa_girl on February 01, 2006, 07:22:37 PM
Post by: melissa_girl on February 01, 2006, 07:22:37 PM
Ok...I'll have a go at this.
I just am a woman because I am feminine and I feel that way. I am much happier being recognized as a woman and hate being recognized as a male. I relate to other females much more than I relate to males. I have a need to be pretty. I am an emotional being and need to feel. I just am.
Melissa
I just am a woman because I am feminine and I feel that way. I am much happier being recognized as a woman and hate being recognized as a male. I relate to other females much more than I relate to males. I have a need to be pretty. I am an emotional being and need to feel. I just am.
Melissa
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: HelenW on February 01, 2006, 07:49:04 PM
Post by: HelenW on February 01, 2006, 07:49:04 PM
My SO asked me the other evening why, since I've never "been a woman," how can I think/feel that I am one? It was a question that required either silence or volumes and I chose the former. But it gave me some motivation for thought.
I realize that I could have asked her how she knew she was a woman since the definition is impossible to nail down but it's all about biology for her. What's between your legs (". . . how God made you."), is what you are as far as she's concerned. Right now, I think that I'm more feminine than masculine because I feel more attuned to those things that our society defines as feminie. As Melissa said,
All of those things, of course, are severely discouraged, even punished, if a male of any age shows them in our culture. I'm expressing myself more and more honestly these days and I feel like I'm getting my butt kicked. So, do I want to be feminine because as a man I am not allowed to live this way? Or is it that I just am? I think it might be both but, as I've paraphrased before, feminine is as feminine feels. Objectifying it by trying to define it doesn't work.
helen
I realize that I could have asked her how she knew she was a woman since the definition is impossible to nail down but it's all about biology for her. What's between your legs (". . . how God made you."), is what you are as far as she's concerned. Right now, I think that I'm more feminine than masculine because I feel more attuned to those things that our society defines as feminie. As Melissa said,
Quote from: melissa_girl on February 01, 2006, 07:22:37 PM
relate to other females much more than I relate to males. I have a need to be pretty. I am an emotional being and need to feel.
All of those things, of course, are severely discouraged, even punished, if a male of any age shows them in our culture. I'm expressing myself more and more honestly these days and I feel like I'm getting my butt kicked. So, do I want to be feminine because as a man I am not allowed to live this way? Or is it that I just am? I think it might be both but, as I've paraphrased before, feminine is as feminine feels. Objectifying it by trying to define it doesn't work.
helen
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Sara on February 02, 2006, 12:34:02 AM
Post by: Sara on February 02, 2006, 12:34:02 AM
I hate to throw a spanner in the works but at one stage we were entirely the same neither man or female. Genitals do not completely distinguish a female from male it happens in the brain before we are thrown into this world of illusion. I have just been told I have a different set of chromosones than the normal male or the normal female (somewhere closest to a female though as there are xx and something else in there) and I dont actually understand it but the test prooved to me that I was different. If you think you are female then you are, if you think you are a duck then quak like a duck.
Someone posted the comment "woman have had a lifetime to be the woman that they are and we have to cram everything in to a short period of our life". Take estrogen away from the GG and give them T and you will still find they will look like a male but are very much a female in their brain.
Sara.
Someone posted the comment "woman have had a lifetime to be the woman that they are and we have to cram everything in to a short period of our life". Take estrogen away from the GG and give them T and you will still find they will look like a male but are very much a female in their brain.
Sara.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Dennis on February 02, 2006, 01:46:11 AM
Post by: Dennis on February 02, 2006, 01:46:11 AM
Non-trans GG that is. Just to clarify that comment about giving a GG T. Those of us who've felt male all our lives, just get our bodies to look like we feel.
Dennis
Dennis
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: melissa_girl on February 02, 2006, 11:39:41 AM
Post by: melissa_girl on February 02, 2006, 11:39:41 AM
Quote from: Sara on February 02, 2006, 12:34:02 AM
I have just been told I have a different set of chromosones than the normal male or the normal female (somewhere closest to a female though as there are xx and something else in there) and I dont actually understand it but the test prooved to me that I was different.
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome
Melissa
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 12:45:36 PM
Post by: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 12:45:36 PM
As my mother always put it "Sugar, spice and everything nice?"
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: melissa_girl on February 13, 2006, 01:10:52 PM
Post by: melissa_girl on February 13, 2006, 01:10:52 PM
Quote from: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 12:45:36 PM
As my mother always put it "Sugar, spice and everything nice?"
If that's the case, what is a transsexual made of? >:D
Melissa
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 02:51:31 PM
Post by: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 02:51:31 PM
I dont know I never thought of that?
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Kimberly on February 13, 2006, 04:06:33 PM
Post by: Kimberly on February 13, 2006, 04:06:33 PM
Sugar, spice and everything nice, but dipped in the mud and left out in the cold.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 04:34:22 PM
Post by: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 04:34:22 PM
LOL Thats a good one Kim. :P
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: melissa_girl on February 13, 2006, 06:56:37 PM
Post by: melissa_girl on February 13, 2006, 06:56:37 PM
Quote from: Kimberly on February 13, 2006, 04:06:33 PM
Sugar, spice and everything nice, but dipped in the mud and left out in the cold.
That explains it. :)
Melissa
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Leigh on February 13, 2006, 09:09:09 PM
Post by: Leigh on February 13, 2006, 09:09:09 PM
Quote from: melissa_girl on February 13, 2006, 01:10:52 PM
If that's the case, what is a transsexual made of? >:D
This is one I just can't resist.
Darn sure are not made with nuts and bolts.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: HelenW on February 13, 2006, 09:18:33 PM
Post by: HelenW on February 13, 2006, 09:18:33 PM
Quote from: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 12:45:36 PM
As my mother always put it "Sugar, spice and everything nice?"
What! No hot motor oil and tequila? I know a few ladies that might disagree.
And knowing them, I might have to also! >:D
helen
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: rana on February 14, 2006, 05:27:23 AM
Post by: rana on February 14, 2006, 05:27:23 AM
Some disjointed musings on the subject;
Female is the default state of humanity, we all start out as female, men are highly modified or specialised versions, depending on a cascade of hormonally induced changes of such complexity one wonders if there are any normal men? So different but essentially the same.
That Japanese theatre where women's parts are played by men - reason being that only a man has the sensitivity to properly play a woman - (they said that not me, just has to make you wonder? )
Watching a TV documentary (and also reading in Scientific magazines) that there is no such thing as race, that the obvious differences are just artifacts - I find great difficulty in believing this, thinking this must be PC pseudoscience. However, this seems to be the accepted view by learned people who should know.
Now if this is the case with race, why not with the sexes. I mean there is no characteristic of men or women that there is no examples of in the other sex. I can think of insensitive women I know, of empathetic men. I bet everyone here can call to mind any characteristic of either men or women that also can appear in the opposite sex - and that is not explained away by effeminate men or masculine women.
It has been said earlier in this thread, and this is my contention - that despite all the obvious differences that appear to hit you in the eye, essentially there is no real difference between men & women
Female is the default state of humanity, we all start out as female, men are highly modified or specialised versions, depending on a cascade of hormonally induced changes of such complexity one wonders if there are any normal men? So different but essentially the same.
That Japanese theatre where women's parts are played by men - reason being that only a man has the sensitivity to properly play a woman - (they said that not me, just has to make you wonder? )
Watching a TV documentary (and also reading in Scientific magazines) that there is no such thing as race, that the obvious differences are just artifacts - I find great difficulty in believing this, thinking this must be PC pseudoscience. However, this seems to be the accepted view by learned people who should know.
Now if this is the case with race, why not with the sexes. I mean there is no characteristic of men or women that there is no examples of in the other sex. I can think of insensitive women I know, of empathetic men. I bet everyone here can call to mind any characteristic of either men or women that also can appear in the opposite sex - and that is not explained away by effeminate men or masculine women.
It has been said earlier in this thread, and this is my contention - that despite all the obvious differences that appear to hit you in the eye, essentially there is no real difference between men & women
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: titaniumowl on February 15, 2006, 04:35:05 AM
Post by: titaniumowl on February 15, 2006, 04:35:05 AM
In my opinion, there is no difference between men and women not related to reproduction, the associated hormones and their effects on mood and the statistical differences in physical size and strength.
Everything else is a product of society. The deep social difference between men and women is that men are afraid that women will laugh at them while women are afraid men will rape and/or kill them. All the outward signs and symbols of femininity grow out of that characteristic of society.
After many discussions with my two boys and four girls and my four plus years living among women, that's what I think. I could be wrong. :)
Karen
Everything else is a product of society. The deep social difference between men and women is that men are afraid that women will laugh at them while women are afraid men will rape and/or kill them. All the outward signs and symbols of femininity grow out of that characteristic of society.
After many discussions with my two boys and four girls and my four plus years living among women, that's what I think. I could be wrong. :)
Karen
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: melissa_girl on February 15, 2006, 11:01:03 AM
Post by: melissa_girl on February 15, 2006, 11:01:03 AM
I have 2 children. A boy and a girl. What's amazing is the difference between whet they were naturally inclined to like without us as parents leading them one way or the other. My little girl is heavily into stuffed bears, princesses, flowers, dolls, making herself look "pretty" and many other girly things. My boy was naturally drawn towards gadgets, cars, sports and many other boy things. They do have some stuff in common, like they both like drawing, although my girl (who is only 4) seems to have a natural talent in that area, they both like pets, and they both like watching movies.
My point is, there are differences with male and female brains which is more than just societal. I completely agree that society does play a big role in defining what makes a male and what makes a female, but it really is a combination of nature and nurture.
Melissa
My point is, there are differences with male and female brains which is more than just societal. I completely agree that society does play a big role in defining what makes a male and what makes a female, but it really is a combination of nature and nurture.
Melissa
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Erica78 on March 29, 2006, 10:02:55 AM
Post by: Erica78 on March 29, 2006, 10:02:55 AM
Quote from: Melissa on February 15, 2006, 11:01:03 AM
I have 2 children. A boy and a girl. What's amazing is the difference between whet they were naturally inclined to like without us as parents leading them one way or the other. My little girl is heavily into stuffed bears, princesses, flowers, dolls, making herself look "pretty" and many other girly things. My boy was naturally drawn towards gadgets, cars, sports and many other boy things. They do have some stuff in common, like they both like drawing, although my girl (who is only 4) seems to have a natural talent in that area, they both like pets, and they both like watching movies.
My point is, there are differences with male and female brains which is more than just societal. I completely agree that society does play a big role in defining what makes a male and what makes a female, but it really is a combination of nature and nurture.
Melissa
I played with barbies when I was younger but then again I also lived out the first few years as a femme. I dont know I guess Im weird. It transitioned to strapping M80s to kens legs and lighting the fuse so I dont know.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Kate on March 29, 2006, 01:56:44 PM
Post by: Kate on March 29, 2006, 01:56:44 PM
Quote from: Melissa on February 15, 2006, 11:01:03 AMMy little girl is heavily into stuffed bears, princesses, flowers, dolls, making herself look "pretty" and many other girly things.
IDENTITY:
Although women *tend* to be feminine on average, those traits don't seem to make one female. Janet Reno, for example, is very much a woman. But I can't imagine her having played with dolls, flowers, and trying to be "pretty."
The catch is, while genetic women can pretty much do and act any way they darn well please and STILL be considered female (if they identify thusly), transsexual women are not afforded that same luxury - not even by themselves, which is interesting. You see it all over the forums... many of us find ourselves searching for feminine traits (emotional and physical) to "prove" that we're really female. And while that's understandable - since we don't have the physical evidence to support our internal feelings - it's also a bit hypocritical. Chasing a ghost of self-doubt.
No, whatever IT is - this elusive identity thing - it seems to exist independent, unjustifiable, and sometimes downright rebellious of stereotype.
PHYSICAL SEX:
Hormones. For me anyway, hormones define when I'd consider myself "female" physically. I could have facial surgery, breast implants, and SRS... but without hormones I think I'd still feel the dysphoria with my body. Conversely, with nothing BUT hormones I *think* I would finally start to feel female, though I might remain unhappy with my appearance. There's satisfaction in knowing my *body* thinks it's female, which is what HRT would provide. A bit tricky though, since post-menopausal women are still female, regardless of hormone levels. But still, for me, HRT seems to be the foundation for finally feeling female physically.
LEGALLY:
SRS or perhaps 2 years on HRT. I think the legal perspective is to keep functioning penises out of places they don't belong, such as women's rooms, etc. It's not an ethical or identity issue, it's just a practical concern for women's safety and privacy.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Melissa on March 29, 2006, 03:11:53 PM
Post by: Melissa on March 29, 2006, 03:11:53 PM
Here's what makes a woman or man that seems to transcend all different cases:
It's what you define yourself to be. If you define yourself as a woman, then you are one. If you define yourself as a man, then you are one. Even if other people see differently, this doesn't negate the fact that you are who you are. Also, keep in mind that calling yourself something and defining yourself as something are 2 different things.
Melissa
It's what you define yourself to be. If you define yourself as a woman, then you are one. If you define yourself as a man, then you are one. Even if other people see differently, this doesn't negate the fact that you are who you are. Also, keep in mind that calling yourself something and defining yourself as something are 2 different things.
Melissa
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Kate on March 29, 2006, 03:43:33 PM
Post by: Kate on March 29, 2006, 03:43:33 PM
Quote from: Melissa on March 29, 2006, 03:11:53 PM
It's what you define yourself to be. If you define yourself as a woman, then you are one.
I like that. A whole lot :)
This way we can have women who express/portray/define "femaleness" in a myriad of ways, all perfectly valid in their own right. Even Janet Reno :)
I worry though about someone who seems male in *everything* they say, think, and do... I mean if there's no difference *except* for our claimed self-identity, then doesn't the identity become meaningless (she asks herself, musing)? Which of course contradicts what I said about identity existing independent of traits. Ghosts again.
One of the validations I do allow myself is to notice how other people treat me. It's impossible to quantify, as we're talking trends and averages here, but on the whole, people treat me as if I am female. Well, OK, as if I'm a woman who looks remarkably similiar to a 6'2" man with a penis. But the poor things do their best, much to both of our confusions. I never really thought about it until my wife pointed it out, and now it's a source of validation and amusement for me. I'm not suggesting I pass - I really am a guy otherwise, not effeminate, not particularly feminine-looking - and yet there's SOME ineffable quality that draws out the same instinctual responses that women generally create. *I* don't even know what IT is, and to be honest, it makes me self-conscious as heck sometimes wondering what I'm doing "wrong" for my birth sex.
So in a way, that feedback, that constant expectation of gender, against all physical evidence, has nurtured my identity as much as my own self-definition.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Hazumu on April 01, 2006, 11:08:44 AM
Post by: Hazumu on April 01, 2006, 11:08:44 AM
Hey, Kate;
I really like your recent post on identity/physical/legal. When I first accepted my transsexuality and with that, realized I need to transition, I too searched for the universal things that made one female or feminine. I tried to learn 'the walk', tried to do the knee-over-knee crossing the legs (rather than the male figure-four,) etc.
Then I realized a lot of Natal females didn't walk in any particular manner and, when not wearing a skirt (which is actually kind of rare these days,) would cross their legs figure-four style.
Yet, there's still some 'essence' of femaleness that comes through.
A few months ago I bought the Denae Doyle videos. I found they were only narrowly useful -- say, if I was going to attend a formal ball or other event where I had to behave in a highly stylized female manner, but kinda' useless for everyday mannerisms.
I think the biggest difference that happened was upon truly accepting myself I stopped monitoring my mannerisms and censoring anything that wasn't 'masculine'. Now I stand/walk/sit the way I feel like. The old me still sometimes wells up and tries to say "Stop That!", but I just smile to myself and let it happen.
Somewhere else was a topic on what to wear to a support group meeting. My answer to me is, 'Wear what you feel comfortable with.' With my therapists' concurrence, I'm actually playing a mental game with myself wherein I'm a female who is -- "deep stealth" style -- presenting as a guy (or trying to ;) ) As my hair grows out longer, as electrolysis steadily erodes my facial hair, as HRT causes my breasts to develop further, redistributes body fat, and softens body hair and skin, and more importantly, the mental attitues & such become more profoundly changed, it'll be harder and harder to present as a guy. When strangers begin to refer to me as female, I'll know that Karen's undercover assignment to spy on the other team is coming to an end.
Now all the above really does for me is take the pressure off to 'behave' in a 'feminine' manner, and just behave as me. The female-ness will still shine through and, over time, will only become stronger.
Still, that doesn't answer the topic question. What makes 'Female'? An appreciation for the quality of 'cute'? An empathetic sense of what others might be feeling? I find there's a feeling that's hard to put into words -- I can only describe facets of it. I can tap into this feeling and use it when making videos to fine-tune the emotional undercurrent, enhancing the videos' effectiveness. I can't explain why I did it that way, but somehow I just -- know...
Sorry for the vague and amorphous post. I hope it somehow adds to this discussion.
Karen
I really like your recent post on identity/physical/legal. When I first accepted my transsexuality and with that, realized I need to transition, I too searched for the universal things that made one female or feminine. I tried to learn 'the walk', tried to do the knee-over-knee crossing the legs (rather than the male figure-four,) etc.
Then I realized a lot of Natal females didn't walk in any particular manner and, when not wearing a skirt (which is actually kind of rare these days,) would cross their legs figure-four style.
Yet, there's still some 'essence' of femaleness that comes through.
A few months ago I bought the Denae Doyle videos. I found they were only narrowly useful -- say, if I was going to attend a formal ball or other event where I had to behave in a highly stylized female manner, but kinda' useless for everyday mannerisms.
I think the biggest difference that happened was upon truly accepting myself I stopped monitoring my mannerisms and censoring anything that wasn't 'masculine'. Now I stand/walk/sit the way I feel like. The old me still sometimes wells up and tries to say "Stop That!", but I just smile to myself and let it happen.
Somewhere else was a topic on what to wear to a support group meeting. My answer to me is, 'Wear what you feel comfortable with.' With my therapists' concurrence, I'm actually playing a mental game with myself wherein I'm a female who is -- "deep stealth" style -- presenting as a guy (or trying to ;) ) As my hair grows out longer, as electrolysis steadily erodes my facial hair, as HRT causes my breasts to develop further, redistributes body fat, and softens body hair and skin, and more importantly, the mental attitues & such become more profoundly changed, it'll be harder and harder to present as a guy. When strangers begin to refer to me as female, I'll know that Karen's undercover assignment to spy on the other team is coming to an end.
Now all the above really does for me is take the pressure off to 'behave' in a 'feminine' manner, and just behave as me. The female-ness will still shine through and, over time, will only become stronger.
Still, that doesn't answer the topic question. What makes 'Female'? An appreciation for the quality of 'cute'? An empathetic sense of what others might be feeling? I find there's a feeling that's hard to put into words -- I can only describe facets of it. I can tap into this feeling and use it when making videos to fine-tune the emotional undercurrent, enhancing the videos' effectiveness. I can't explain why I did it that way, but somehow I just -- know...
Sorry for the vague and amorphous post. I hope it somehow adds to this discussion.
Karen
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Bmore on April 03, 2006, 10:14:36 AM
Post by: Bmore on April 03, 2006, 10:14:36 AM
What makes a Female? It's the shoes hon... just kidding.
I'm reading Gender Outlaw too,it really has me thinking. Specifically,why is gender seen in dualistic and oppositional terms? Perhaps gender is the artifact of our own divided and opposed culture bias in the same way that Eskimos have 27 words to describe snow, while we have what, 2 or 3? For that matter the pagan religions have a Pantheon of Gods(read psychological stances)while monotheism has again one, maybe two if you include the devil.Perhaps what we call male and female are just prodigiously simplistic descriptions that have reduced a whole ecology of human elements into a grossly impoverished monosystem of being, a place where only two withered stalks remain, in what was once a lush rainforest of gender expression.
You know, sometimes I really wish I could shed my gender the way a snake sheds it's skin, or the moon sheds it's shadow, simply, rhythmically, from season to season, as the mood suits. When I ask myself what sex I am, I always come back to the question, "Well, what sex are angels? Isn't that what we are at our deepest core?" I suppose it's where one puts their emphasis and what the comittees all agree on that takes it from there. Ah well, I hope no one accuses me of contienental thread drift, this whole subject has me musing, but I simply can't find any simple or easy answers to this question.
I'm reading Gender Outlaw too,it really has me thinking. Specifically,why is gender seen in dualistic and oppositional terms? Perhaps gender is the artifact of our own divided and opposed culture bias in the same way that Eskimos have 27 words to describe snow, while we have what, 2 or 3? For that matter the pagan religions have a Pantheon of Gods(read psychological stances)while monotheism has again one, maybe two if you include the devil.Perhaps what we call male and female are just prodigiously simplistic descriptions that have reduced a whole ecology of human elements into a grossly impoverished monosystem of being, a place where only two withered stalks remain, in what was once a lush rainforest of gender expression.
You know, sometimes I really wish I could shed my gender the way a snake sheds it's skin, or the moon sheds it's shadow, simply, rhythmically, from season to season, as the mood suits. When I ask myself what sex I am, I always come back to the question, "Well, what sex are angels? Isn't that what we are at our deepest core?" I suppose it's where one puts their emphasis and what the comittees all agree on that takes it from there. Ah well, I hope no one accuses me of contienental thread drift, this whole subject has me musing, but I simply can't find any simple or easy answers to this question.
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Teri Anne on April 03, 2006, 07:32:49 PM
Post by: Teri Anne on April 03, 2006, 07:32:49 PM
Hi, Bmore,
You said, "I always come back to the question, "Well, what sex are angels? Isn't that what we are at our deepest core?"
I agree totally. In fact, my 1999 Christmas "coming out" card posed the same question: "If we are essentially SPIRITS, then why should it matter to anyone what we look like on earth?"
Teri Anne
You said, "I always come back to the question, "Well, what sex are angels? Isn't that what we are at our deepest core?"
I agree totally. In fact, my 1999 Christmas "coming out" card posed the same question: "If we are essentially SPIRITS, then why should it matter to anyone what we look like on earth?"
Teri Anne
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Bmore on April 04, 2006, 06:10:19 AM
Post by: Bmore on April 04, 2006, 06:10:19 AM
Right on Terri, if we see with the vision of our spirit, then all the divisons the mind likes to make, just fall away. I was talking with a friend about this, about times we feel most like our true selves when our inner dialogue just falls away. You know those mildly euphoric states where there are no words, just the joy of being. For me they come when I walk with my feet touching the tide line down here in the Gulf surf, or when I would loose myself in the spirit of the trees in the forest by my door or again all stretched into the wind on the back of my bike. I call them oceanic moments when we loose the idea of ourselves and just move like a fish in the seas of life. I love these moments, they are my own particular passage to Grace.
I'll bet you have your own way of getting there too. BTW, I enjoy your posts, a lot of your spirit comes through in them. I'm glad we can chat together.
~Leigh G. Rivers
I'll bet you have your own way of getting there too. BTW, I enjoy your posts, a lot of your spirit comes through in them. I'm glad we can chat together.
~Leigh G. Rivers
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: Bmore on April 05, 2006, 06:19:04 AM
Post by: Bmore on April 05, 2006, 06:19:04 AM
Listening to NPR few weeks ago they were talking about how there was an "alarming" increase in youg girls mutilating and burning their Barbies in England. Can't even imagine what they did to Ken. Well least they're rebelling against perfection at an early age.
~Leigh
~Leigh
Title: Re: What do you think makes the Female
Post by: CarolC Oz Girl on April 06, 2006, 04:53:24 AM
Post by: CarolC Oz Girl on April 06, 2006, 04:53:24 AM
Hi Girls have not made a post in a while so I thought I would add my thoughts.
I do not think there any right or wrong answers to this one, it hard to define.
Like Melissa I like to feel pretty and yes we do have the opportunity to express our feeling openly without being looked down on.
In some way its like somebody asking me what its like to be Australian, apart from the usual socially acceptable answer, I could not answer that one either.
I chose to begin this journey to correct what my mind felt and body did not reflect, I guess its all a matter in the mind.
In short what make me a female its me.
Caroline
I do not think there any right or wrong answers to this one, it hard to define.
Like Melissa I like to feel pretty and yes we do have the opportunity to express our feeling openly without being looked down on.
In some way its like somebody asking me what its like to be Australian, apart from the usual socially acceptable answer, I could not answer that one either.
I chose to begin this journey to correct what my mind felt and body did not reflect, I guess its all a matter in the mind.
In short what make me a female its me.
Caroline