Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was just recently thinking about why so many transgender are unable to pass because I myself have the same fears that I am just way to masculine to pass.. but I got to thinking is it more do to people being to lazy to lose the weight eat right learn good fashion work hard on there voice learn to walk and act like a woman.. do you think anyone can pass if they put in enough effort and work? I'm wondering how many transgender people don't pass simply because they are lazy.. or do you feel that some people just can never pass no matter how hard they try?? Just some thoughts I've been having curious of others thoughts on the matter

I feel it varies. Some have very male physical features, that make the task very difficult. For others, it is a case of lacking the skills initially with fashion and makeup, these just take time, even with effort. For others passing is not a priority, but simply being authentic to themselves. But yes, there are almost certainly some who could achieve a better outcome with a greater commitment.

Define pass. I present as part man, part woman and get mixed reactions of gender perception from people. That means I'm passing, right?  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I never give much thought to other trans peoples expression of gender unless asked directly by that person. I think its important that as trans people that we not police other trans peoples bodies or expressions . I find it ironic that so many trans people ( especially my fellow transwomen) get so worked up against systemic gatekeeping to woamanhood ( therapists, doctors, legal barriers ect.) but then turn around and act like gate keepers to authentic trans womanhood, as if there is such a thing .  Womanhood is as diverse as the trans community and while there are ways to modify your looks to subscribe to a certain ideal , it does not mean that others who do not fit in this box are lazy or that they even care to fit in that box.  Just to be clear I'm not accusing you of any of the above I just think its important to remember that everyone's journey is their own and is not for us to chime in on.

I routinely 'pass', in spite of that avatar of me on the left looking as she does, by dressing in the boringly standard uniform of the 60-something woman in this region.  Jeans, either denim or white, sneakers, and a simple top like a scoop neck tee or tank with a light blousy jacket, 3/4 sleeve.  Top with gray hair and serve.

People see that, slot me as 'another old lady', and don't bother looking closer.  However, if I'm sitting in a restaurant or such where the 'uniform' isn't as visible, and someone is more likely to actually look at the face, then I definitely get clocked.

Also, older folks do better simply because the older men and women look the more similar they look.

I get ma'am'd while wearing my work uniform enough that I started to wonder what I was doing to "pass", if that what the definition is.  My girlfriend routinely tells me I am "girlier" than she is...to a point I know she is not just placating.  So here has been my take so far, it is less about looks than energy.  I have an effeminate energy, often interpreted as "effeminate gay" if attempting to act male.  Looks have some to do with it, but I really think it is a vibe that people can feel when we interact.

I have sisters that vibe male, but in a photo you would not ever be able to tell.  In interacting, I can better be interpreted as my true internal gender despite what I consider to be a very manly appearance.  A big part is relaxing and not actually worrying about it.

I get the "passing" thing.  I hear about it a lot and I simply do not put much worry in to it.  I am who I am and I pass for me 100% of the time.  I am convinced that once we start to relax in to being ourselves, we start to get seen in that way by most people around us.

Quote from: Gianna2014 on July 11, 2016, 12:44:23 PM
I never give much thought to other trans peoples expression of gender unless asked directly by that person. I think its important that as trans people that we not police other trans peoples bodies or expressions . I find it ironic that so many trans people ( especially my fellow transwomen) get so worked up against systemic gatekeeping to woamanhood ( therapists, doctors, legal barriers ect.) but then turn around and act like gate keepers to authentic trans womanhood, as if there is such a thing .  Womanhood is as diverse as the trans community and while there are ways to modify your looks to subscribe to a certain ideal , it does not mean that others who do not fit in this box are lazy or that they even care to fit in that box.  Just to be clear I'm not accusing you of any of the above I just think its important to remember that everyone's journey is their own and is not for us to chime in on.

i couldnt have said better myself :)

I'm 6 ft tall, big everything, super-sized supraorbital ridges, deeper then the average male's voice, big frog hands, and, according to Scuba-Pro, Super-Extra-Large feet. Oh... and balding since 14. This former fatty is about 100 lbs lighter then my peak of 250. It was all fat, hardly a muscle on me then, and less so today.

I put in a bit of extra effort to assure I have as unambiguous of a female presentation as possible. And.... I like like girlie-girl. It just doesn't feel right to be in a skirt or dress without some makeup and..... But even in jeans it's usually a cute, somewhat showy top  ;D (flaunt em even if you don't really have em) some very light mascarra, maybe lipstick.

Do I pass? I like to think so. So far no issues at all. A far different experience from 30 years ago and my two failed transition experiments.

Have I ever been clocked? Likely yes.

A girlfriend (Cis) of mine was 6ft and the runt of the family. She had some very masculine features like her head shape, eyes, even her voice to some extent. I know she didn't always pass. Even when her hair was down to her hips

Can "Anyone" accomplish, or come as far, as I have. Anyone is a bit open ended. There is a non-transitioning MTF in my group who is 6' 14" I believe. She knows all too well it's "No Way"

Hair, clothing, makeup, deportment, and attitude can take you far. But there will always be those who will have difficulty. Then there are those that don't have the skills, or knowledge base to make "adjustments" though they badly want to pass better. But clothing, hair, makeup takes time, money and a lot of trial and error. I had about 30 years of practice before I hit the streets in the sunshine this last time around.

I find most people call me sir when I am trying and ma'am when I don't completely independent of clothing, so I don't bother trying with anything other than voice anymore.

When I dress "business casual", things always go fine ... without makeup. So few women in my area dress fancy, or wear makeup, that doing so would draw attention.

We are so obsessed with passing and this is even more so when we start accepting we are trans. I remember when I first accepted I was Trans and started my journey and how I would endlessly look at the mirror and try to do makeup just to get an idea of my passing possibilities. The body was shaped wrong and I added padding....my greatest fear then was not passing.

Moving the clock forward some 3.5 years and lthe changes physically from HRT and learning to speak, walk, do makeup and of course fashion sense, I reflect on the former fears  and I am comfortable and secure in my passing. With effort and patience we can all optimize our female attributes.forget the sterotype female we have in our minds...females and males have huge diversity in looks, mannerism and style.

I want to add that I am proud to be trans ..I pass but I always tell those that I make friends with that I am trans.

If I had to say what seems to work with me it's:
- boobs
- mascara
- smile when you make eye contact, especially with women

To be fair I think hips or boobs or both help make the observer's mind automatically think in a certain direction.  Dress as a woman of course.  Then small feminine things help carry it and attitude with voice do the rest.  Voice is hard but if you talk like a girl, inflections, words used, etc then pitch doesn't matter as much.  Think Kathleen Turner who has a low voice. 

Yeah you all have great points..i think people should do whatever they need or want to be happy regardless of how they look.. what I was curious with this post is if anyone could pass if they really put everything they had into it or for some is it impossible.. for s one passing doesn't MN after and that's fine. For me if I don't feel I can pass then I will not do it because I know it we ont fix anything for me to get point for me to transition is to be a woman to be viewed as a woman and treated as such I'd rather just be a man than a man in a dress.. I have no judgement towards anyone if you are happy with your effort and where you have gotten and how you look that's amazing and I hope to achieve that one day wether I transition or not.. I know everyone says don't get hung up on passing but for me I know if I can't pass then I will never feel like or truly view myself as a woman and I'm not expecting to be some beautiful supermodel that would be awesome but I know I never will be i just want to pass and be views 100% as a woman other than to the people who already know me that is. It's hard though because you never truly know how you will turn out untill you get there

I think that could be true for some trans people, but it doesn't make it true for all trans people. Passing is dependent on a lot of variables, so not everyone will be able to pass, but that doesn't mean you can't be happy. Survey says self-acceptance and a positive outlook are key factors that contribute to happiness.

I totally agree as long as you are happy and love yourself wether you pass or not really doesn't matter.. I just know that for me personally I don't want to transition if I don't believe that with hrt hard work and the right procedures that I would pass..i just don't think I would ever feel like the woman I've always wanted to be..

I wouldn't have transitioned if passing was not something I would have been able to a attain, truth is is that I pass a lot better than I say that I do in most of my comments here.

In my own personal view of this concept I prefer to liken it to a cancerous arm where you have a choice of cutting the arm off and living or leaving the arm on because your afraid you will look ugly without an arm.

lol, I said what works for me earlier in the thread and then karma smacked me.  Got clocked twice in the same day and hadn't had that happen for several months.  To be fair I was in dark jeans with a black t-shirt. 

I agree with all the sentiments noted though.  In the end, the more critical thing is to be who you are so you can live with yourself. 
Passing is really a problem other people have or don't have, but I do like it when I get treated as a woman.  It's like, I get to live as me AND I get a bonus.

I suppose though the most important part about passing or not is to simply avoid confrontations with the ignorant.  Too many people out there that shouldn't be allowed to breed who create situations because of their problems with who we are. 

Quote from: kittenpower on July 13, 2016, 03:23:42 PM
I think that could be true for some trans people, but it doesn't make it true for all trans people. Passing is dependent on a lot of variables, so not everyone will be able to pass, but that doesn't mean you can't be happy. Survey says self-acceptance and a positive outlook are key factors that contribute to happiness.

Why I like 99% of passing is attitude. "Attitude" is a 2-Way street. Self acceptance is so important in EVERY aspect of your life

Quote from: Randy1980 on July 11, 2016, 11:04:44 AM
I was just recently thinking about why so many transgender are unable to pass because I myself have the same fears that I am just way to masculine to pass.. but I got to thinking is it more do to people being to lazy to lose the weight eat right learn good fashion work hard on there voice learn to walk and act like a woman.. do you think anyone can pass if they put in enough effort and work? I'm wondering how many transgender people don't pass simply because they are lazy.. or do you feel that some people just can never pass no matter how hard they try?? Just some thoughts I've been having curious of others thoughts on the matter

Yeah lazy. It's my fault I'm 6'5. Unfortunately I wasn't "privileged" to have been born 40 or 50 years later so as to be able to prevent being the jolly green giant.


Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA

I think its a sliding scale and people vary due to their heritage, but really its, part genetics and part social conditioning. The social conditioning can range from dress, mannerisms, socialization, and overall environmental factors, to genetics, with help of surgeries, to an extent. It depends on your genetics and other timeline, social factors.

For some odd reason I've noticed that I get clocked more frequently by people from India. In fact, almost no one else ever does clock me.

I'm certain I don't pass, but folks in the Northern California region are so accepting that I always get "Ma'am"ed.  While I was shopping yesterday, while holding one item up I spotted an older gent looking at me.  He was staring at my face with a look of intense concentration.  I wonder if I was the poor fellows first?  ;)  There's gotta be a term for that.  :o  ;)

Not really laziness, we all have lives, gotta pay bills, and many have other projects to work on.

Fear of failure? I think so. There are some genetic strikes against me. Height for one. 5 ft 9.

Being half black, I'm never going to have naturally long flowing hair, where I can just flick it back and shake it like a shampoo advert. That's not gonna happen. My hair is very thin at the top. It's gonna be difficult to solve that. I feel kind of fake if I have to always rely on wigs. And I worry about someone ripping it off.

Face isn't European looking. And as western societies standards of femininity are very much eurocentric, that's a disadvantage no amount of work is going to just remove.  It has to be overcome.

And my voice naturally has a higher amount of bass in it. So if I talked I'd be instantly clocked.  Requiring alot of speech therapy and practice that probably has to be done for life.

Then there's subconscious masculine habits that could get me clocked. the way i walk for example.

Passing seems like a distant, elusive, barely possible dream right now. It's one thing if i knew exactly what to do, then I'd just do it, but I don't.   ???

"He was staring at my face with a look of intense concentration.  I wonder if I was the poor fellows first?  ;)  There's gotta be a term for that.  :o  ;)"

Transfixed.  ^-^

Quote from: Dee Marshall on July 15, 2016, 04:42:31 AM
For some odd reason I've noticed that I get clocked more frequently by people from India. In fact, almost no one else ever does clock me.

Actually it's basically the males who live in India and Pakistan..they are supreme chauvinist and I guess in their society ogling at females in a dirty manner is just their chauvinistic culture.

I see them in Bangkok and am willing to be quite agressive to those dirty men.  It's not like in the West ...they have is dirty nastyness in the way they look at females....you are not being clocked

I'm guessing that genetics plays a huge role in passing as well as attitude.
I'm HELLA lazy , I hate working out, but I can still run a pretty mean distance if I have to.  ??? ??? ??? ???
i'm African American,I think I got off pretty easy as far as genetics. Last time I measured I was 25w and 35 Hips, but darn it! I wish muh pelvis would get a little wider  :angel: :angel: :angel: My hair is pretty thick, and grows pretty long. my voice isnt the deepest, but hey, in the end, I guess it played out in my favor.
I wear size 7 - 7.5 in womens shoes ??? ??? ??? ???
6 years ago I wore a size 5 in mens  ??? ??? ??? ???
however, Passing in society is EZ, Personally passing is the hard part   :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Surely your journey is all about self acceptance not the acceptance of others.Do we not go through such difficulties so that when we wake up in the morning the woman that looks back at you in the mirror is yourself. Forget what other people think,trying to squeeze you into their version of the world and hell,I pass(seriously though,we need to move beyond this-pass/fail terminology),work closely with the public but really it doesnt matter a hoot what those other people think.I'm a good person and if you dont like it then you can <Not Permitted> right off!!!!

Mod edit:Language

Seriously I cant say <Not Permitted> !!


Mod Edit:Language

Quote from: JoanneB on July 12, 2016, 07:36:45 PM
I'm 6 ft tall, big everything, super-sized supraorbital ridges, deeper then the average male's voice, big frog hands, and, according to Scuba-Pro, Super-Extra-Large feet. Oh... and balding since 14. This former fatty is about 100 lbs lighter then my peak of 250. It was all fat, hardly a muscle on me then, and less so today.

I put in a bit of extra effort to assure I have as unambiguous of a female presentation as possible. And.... I like like girlie-girl. It just doesn't feel right to be in a skirt or dress without some makeup and..... But even in jeans it's usually a cute, somewhat showy top  ;D (flaunt em even if you don't really have em) some very light mascarra, maybe lipstick.

Do I pass? I like to think so. So far no issues at all. A far different experience from 30 years ago and my two failed transition experiments.

Have I ever been clocked? Likely yes.

A girlfriend (Cis) of mine was 6ft and the runt of the family. She had some very masculine features like her head shape, eyes, even her voice to some extent. I know she didn't always pass. Even when her hair was down to her hips

Can "Anyone" accomplish, or come as far, as I have. Anyone is a bit open ended. There is a non-transitioning MTF in my group who is 6' 14" I believe. She knows all too well it's "No Way"

Hair, clothing, makeup, deportment, and attitude can take you far. But there will always be those who will have difficulty. Then there are those that don't have the skills, or knowledge base to make "adjustments" though they badly want to pass better. But clothing, hair, makeup takes time, money and a lot of trial and error. I had about 30 years of practice before I hit the streets in the sunshine this last time around.

Hey joanne:
When i was 19-20, 235 was thin for me. My lbm 5 years ago was 210. Probably 190 now. At least I have my hair. :) it is genetics and I won the boobie prize. Trans woman in a huge body. I wish I was my dad's size, 5'9 and 155. Somehow this happened. All of it. If there is a god, it has a sick sense of humor.


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People wonder why I LOVE a good Irony. My life, my existence, epitomizes irony. I see it everywhere.

I'm 6'2" and have a masculine frame I think.  Up until recently I was always worried about constantly being clocked no matter how much effort I put into my presentation.  I've realized more and more as time goes on that it doesn't matter what other people think.  What matters is being comfortable with yourself and happy about being you instead of what those other people want.  They don't run your life.  Do you.

Irony.  Yeah.  God is an iron.

I was so darn happy that earlier I posted in the "what made you happy today" about shoe shopping.  I commented that I was pretty sure I was passing.  Oh, hubris! 😏

I got sloppy.  From behind this outfit with black skirt and white blouse looks fairly severe.  Add that with the no-estrogen hips and thighs, well, let's just say that if I forget the sway and wiggle things back there definitely read as a dude in a dress.

A couple in their late thirties, holding hands (cute!) walk past me.  About 6 feet in front of me, she leans over and whispers something in his ear.  Probably not sweet nothings.  His head swivels around, and looks at my grinning mug.  His posture shifts, head down and snapped back to straight ahead.  Clocked!

So, instead of passing, I'm out there loud and proud, letting the world know that we're here, get used to it...  (Spin it, girl.  Spin it.)

Just another day.  So it goes.  So it goes.

I don't think clothing or even makeup is the the most important thing, although they do help depending on the environment.  In my experience you can get away with pretty masculine dress and no makeup and even a somewhat tall and nondescript body if the hair is long and the face looks somewhat feminine.  And that is mostly genetics and time on HRT unless you opt for surgery. 


Sapere Aude

Quote from: JoanneB on July 14, 2016, 10:23:29 PM
Why I like 99% of passing is attitude. "Attitude" is a 2-Way street. Self acceptance is so important in EVERY aspect of your life

Most definitely ^^^^^^^ This. Attitude you have can truly affect if you pass or not more than anything else that others use to figure out the gender of someone. Hugs
Mariah

I thinks many people can pass if they do enough effort. But I do also think there are a big amount of people who would never pass regardless how hard they tries due genes, body builds, facial features, voice etc. HRT, surgeries, electrolysis/lasers, makeup, clothes, hair etc. can help a lot of people, but not everybody. The passing abilities depends from person to person. Both effort and genes matters.

Quote from: JMJW on July 15, 2016, 01:23:06 PM
"He was staring at my face with a look of intense concentration.  I wonder if I was the poor fellows first?  ;)  There's gotta be a term for that.  :o  ;)"

Transfixed.  ^-^

Lol, that's just brilliant!

~Terri

Very few late transitioning trans women can fool a discerning eye.  Fortunately, there are relatively few such eyes in the world, and many of us realize after awhile that passing 100% of the time is not necessary or as important as we once thought. 

Lazy?  Perhaps, but more likely the motivation to improve our presentation wains, and we settle into a pattern which mostly works for us, even if, from time to time, we get clocked.

For me, the focus has shifted beyond passing in public to the more challenging effort to measure up to my own self-image as a woman  I doubt that I'll ever be satisfied with my appearance and mannerism, the source of what's left of my GD.  To be honest, I'm a bit envious of those who find their comfort zone even though they fall well short of being able to pass convincingly in public.

When it comes to voice work, then yes, I do think there's a lack of effort, in general. 

For good reasons, though.  First, it's not like there's a lot of well-honed techniques that can do the job, nor is it easy to find a coach to get through this.  Second, and more difficult I think, to properly do voice work (imo) takes listening to recordings of yourself over and over again, which can get depressing given the slow pace of returns, and of course it can stir up all kinds of dysphoria.  It's just terribly hard.

A really good voice is the only thing, I think, that can reverse a misgendering and elicit apologies.