Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have some major concerns concerning estrogen therapy that I am going to voice so that it is in the light and is common knowledge.

Many effects of estrogen have been highlighted by our wiki team.  Unfortunatly, all of it seems self serving as it's all going over the feminizing effects of estrogen and a few side effects.  Considering the high rates of depression and drug use in transsexuals, what I'm about to discuss is highly disturbing that it hasn't been covered.

Estrogen increases the actions of dopamines greatly.
Yes, that's right.  Estrogen stimulates the nucleus accumbens which is the primary place for action for any form of dopamine not produced within the body.  That means that popular drugs like heroine, morphine, marijuana, all have greatly increased effects.  The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy.  This means that not only are risks of DUI much greater, but impaired judgement will compound the risk for discovery.  And considering the places one would be whilst doing these(drug houses, in the company of criminals, raves, etc), that's not a good thing.  Not only that, these drugs are downers, and since the person taking it is probably already suffering from depression, it could multiply the condition to suicidal levels.

Estrogen increases the excitability of neurons.  Estrogen creates quickly modifies neuronal excitability by changing membrane receptors located in intrinsic striatal GABAergic neurons and on DA terminals.  This means that all STIMULANTS, DELERIANTS, PSYCHOTICS, and HALLUCINGENS have their potency greatly increased.

Needless to say, there isn't a psychoactive substance out there who's potency isn't increased to dangerous levels by estrogen therapy.

Don't do drugs while on MtF HRT!  Just don't do it!  Figure out which is more important, cheap highs or full life change?  I'd much rather see that full life change come about through gender change rather than paralysis from a car crash or HIV from a hate crime from being discovered at a rave.

Quote from: redfish on October 23, 2007, 03:21:15 PM
Yep, one of the reasons why I'm not a pothead.

Good girl^_^

I don't think you could get approved for a "legit" way of HRT if you are on any sort of psychoactive substance. . . well besides alcohol I would assume.  Although even then it is greatly despised upon.

Quote from: shanetastic on October 23, 2007, 03:49:37 PM
I don't think you could get approved for a "legit" way of HRT if you are on any sort of psychoactive substance. . . well besides alcohol I would assume.  Although even then it is greatly despised upon.

It's easy both to think of faking a drug test and to do it.
It's easy to both realize that you need to lie about it and lie about being on substances.
It's done all the time.

True true.  I just don't know how common it is or anything so figured I'd throw that out there.

Anyways though, good post, looks like you have some research put into that.

Wait, if estrogen increases these effects, then the effects of these drugs would also be more potent on the GG population correct?

I would appreciate a little more information, without the scare tactics.  You want to save lives give people information that they can use sans the morality.

Posted on: October 23, 2007, 05:12:21 PM

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Quote from: shanetastic on October 23, 2007, 03:49:37 PM
I don't think you could get approved for a "legit" way of HRT if you are on any sort of psychoactive substance. . . well besides alcohol I would assume.  Although even then it is greatly despised upon.

Not uniformly true.  All they do is if you do drink, they won't give you the pills to take because it would be taxing on your liver.  I've been on HRT for two years and not once have I been given a drug test.

Quote from: redfish on October 23, 2007, 04:19:14 PM
The only thing I really don't want to do is never drink again. Maybe after surgery they'll lower my meds enough that it won't be an issue.

Would be sad to not get at least a little tipsy on my 21st birthday..

I'm sure that'd be okay.
Just no injecting or snorting or smoking or swallowing stuffs.

Posted on: October 23, 2007, 07:31:44 PM

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Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on October 23, 2007, 05:14:28 PM
Wait, if estrogen increases these effects, then the effects of these drugs would also be more potent on the GG population correct?

No.
The neurons are both designed for the estrogen and they've had it in the system a lot longer.  Furthermore, the naturally produced estrogen and the synthetically intaken estrogen act completely differently on this topic.

QuoteI would appreciate a little more information, without the scare tactics.  You want to save lives give people information that they can use sans the morality.

I said it all right there, it takes a bit of medical back ground to understand.
Basicly, the body's response to outside estrogens is to excite the neurons, making it more sensetive to all forms of drugs, but also acting specifically on areas that receive dopamine which makes a large class of pain-relieving drugs VERY dangerous.
Granted, this is in theory and supported by studies on rats and such... but I still think it's a pretty big issue here.

Quote from: kalt on October 23, 2007, 03:03:53 PM...The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy.

Do you have any cite for this information, or are we supposed to take it on faith?

Quote from: Annie Social on October 23, 2007, 06:50:44 PM

Quote from: kalt on October 23, 2007, 03:03:53 PM...The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy.

Do you have any cite for this information, or are we supposed to take it on faith?

I have never seen a human study that has a number close to that. Being responsible does not mean total absence. From my experience I would call that a false scare tactic.

Quote from: kalt on October 23, 2007, 03:03:53 PM
I have some major concerns concerning estrogen therapy that I am going to voice so that it is in the light and is common knowledge.

Many effects of estrogen have been highlighted by our wiki team.  Unfortunatly, all of it seems self serving as it's all going over the feminizing effects of estrogen and a few side effects.  Considering the high rates of depression and drug use in transsexuals, what I'm about to discuss is highly disturbing that it hasn't been covered.

what do you mean self serving?
self serving to whom?

Also wouldn't diffrent drugs have diffrent effects with the estrogen, given that they are well...diffrent drugs.  Like Cocaine is a very diffrent drug from Marijuana which is diffrent still from LSD which in turn is diffrent from alcohol.

You just lump everything together and say that it mixes with estrogen for bad results--but then the bad results you list are drinking and driving, and passing out and getting beaten and raped at a rave, the bad side of each (getting hit by a car, getting raped by bigots) has much at all to do with the drug, and I would say in both instances, the thing that makes it dangerous are taking the drugs irresponsibly.

Don't drink and drive, and be careful at raves should be the topic.

I would on the other hand actually be interested to know about the long term effects of mixing HRT with various drugs.  Are there any that are worse than the others?  That sort of thing.

Quote from: lisagurl on October 23, 2007, 07:14:46 PM
I have never seen a human study that has a number close to that. Being responsible does not mean total absence. From my experience I would call that a false scare tactic.

And don't forget that it has been conclusively proven that 95.437% of all statistics are just made up.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)

Quote from: Kristi on October 23, 2007, 10:35:10 PM

Quote from: lisagurl on October 23, 2007, 07:14:46 PM
I have never seen a human study that has a number close to that. Being responsible does not mean total absence. From my experience I would call that a false scare tactic.

And don't forget that it has been conclusively proven that 95.437% of all statistics are just made up.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)

The first day of my statistics class, my teacher said this as his first words.

"Statistics don't lie, but liers use statistics."

I developed an allergic reaction of alochol after I've been on HRT.

While the topic raises very real concerns of mixing drugs and the possible side effects we still need references to support the subject.  TS take medications that were not intened to be used the way they are prescribed to us, therefore we are all at risk when on HRT.

I have to take issue with the statement that the Wiki is selfserving.  The information contained in all the articles is there for everyone's benifit including; all members of the TG community, friends and significant others, persons interested in TG community, medical professionals, social proffesionals, those from religious communities, everyone etc. etc.

Further more the information on HRT is drawn from recommendations provided to those genetic males/females who take the medications, and expanded to include the TS person.

Good topic though.

Steph

It actually takes more alcohol to get me drunk and it took a boat load before so based on my own personal experiences I would say that it depends on the individual.

And my liver function is just fine thank you. I only drink to excess once a month. :)

Quote from: Annie Social on October 23, 2007, 06:50:44 PM

Quote from: kalt on October 23, 2007, 03:03:53 PM...The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy.

Do you have any cite for this information, or are we supposed to take it on faith?

That's rather difficult considering it's not something I just popped up online.
I hope you don't mind me listing the sources at the end of my textbook chapter.

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=6633

Wong, A.; Shetreat, M.; Clarke, J.; Rayport, S.: D1- and D2-like
dopamine receptors are co-localized on the presynaptic varicosities
of striatal and nucleus accumbens neurons in vitro. Neuroscience
89:221–233; 1999

Xiao, L.; Becker, J. B.: Quantitative microdialysis determination
of extracellular striatal dopamine concentrations in male and
female rats: Effects of estrous cycle and gonadectomy. Neurosci.
Lett. 180:155–158; 1994.

van Haaren, F.; Meyer, M.: Sex differences in the locomotor
activity after acute and chronic cocaine administration. Pharmacol.
Biochem. Behav. 39:923–927; 1991.

Savageau, M. M.; Beatty, W. W.: Gonadectomy and sex differences
in the behavioral responses of amphetamine and apomorphine
of rats. Pharmacol. Biochem. Behav. 14:17–23; 1981.

Robinson, T. E.; Becker, J. B.; Presty, S. K.: Long-term facilitation
of amphetamine-induced rotational behavior and striatal
dopamine release produced by a single exposure to amphetamine:
Sex differences. Brain Res. 253:231–241; 1982.

Robinson, T. E.: Stimulant drugs and stress: Factors influencing
individual differences in the susceptibility to sensitization. In:
Kalivas, P. W.; Barnes, C., eds. Sensitization of the nervous system.
Caldwell, NJ: Telford Press; 1988:145–173.

Posted on: October 24, 2007, 10:09:46 AM

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Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on October 23, 2007, 10:15:08 PM
Also wouldn't diffrent drugs have diffrent effects with the estrogen, given that they are well...diffrent drugs.  Like Cocaine is a very diffrent drug from Marijuana which is diffrent still from LSD which in turn is diffrent from alcohol.

All mind-altering substances act off neuron excitability or are depressants.  Depressants act off dopamine functions.
So yeah, all drugs>.>

QuoteFrye CA, Rhodes ME.
"Administration of estrogen to ovariectomized rats promotes conditioned place preference and produces moderate levels of estrogen in the nucleus accumbens".
Brain Res. 2006;1067(1):209-215.

We are not rats!

Quote from: lisagurl on October 24, 2007, 11:01:28 AM

QuoteFrye CA, Rhodes ME.
"Administration of estrogen to ovariectomized rats promotes conditioned place preference and produces moderate levels of estrogen in the nucleus accumbens".
Brain Res. 2006;1067(1):209-215.

We are not rats!

Pssht, whatever:-p

Rats are mammals, so are we.
Luckily for us, rats are more willing to volunteer for hazardous and dangerous testing.

I see nothing in your referenced material that would justify the numbers you gave: "The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy. "

Quote from: Annie Social on October 24, 2007, 09:28:28 PM
I see nothing in your referenced material that would justify the numbers you gave: "The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy. "

"5-fold" was an educated estimate.
Keep in mind, everything is relavent to the individual.  Humans have a larger nucleus accumbens than do rats, so if you'll follow my train of logic here...

Quote from: kalt on October 24, 2007, 10:30:40 PM

Quote from: Annie Social on October 24, 2007, 09:28:28 PM
I see nothing in your referenced material that would justify the numbers you gave: "The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy. "

"5-fold" was an educated estimate.
Keep in mind, everything is relavent to the individual.  Humans have a larger nucleus accumbens than do rats, so if you'll follow my train of logic here...

At least for the mind altering substances I have experience with, the 5-fold number is rubbish. Estro has effects on some of them but nothing this strong.

I don't want to get into a too detailed discussion about potentially illegal substances on an open forum, thus no exact details here.

Quote from: taru on October 25, 2007, 04:50:52 AM
At least for the mind altering substances I have experience with, the 5-fold number is rubbish. Estro has effects on some of them but nothing this strong.

I don't want to get into a too detailed discussion about potentially illegal substances on an open forum, thus no exact details here.

Well, are you acknowledging then that estrogen has affected your sensetivity to drugs?

And, won't you also accept that some people might have greater sensetivity due to estrogen than you do?

Quote from: kalt on October 23, 2007, 03:03:53 PM


Estrogen increases the excitability of neurons.  Estrogen creates quickly modifies neuronal excitability by changing membrane receptors located in intrinsic striatal GABAergic neurons and on DA terminals.  This means that all STIMULANTS, DELERIANTS, PSYCHOTICS, and HALLUCINGENS have their potency greatly increased.

Needless to say, there isn't a psychoactive substance out there who's potency isn't increased to dangerous levels by estrogen therapy.

Don't do drugs while on MtF HRT!  Just don't do it!  Figure out which is more important, cheap highs or full life change?  I'd much rather see that full life change come about through gender change rather than paralysis from a car crash or HIV from a hate crime from being discovered at a rave.

your telling me natal women have similar effects from thier estrogen production and thus shouldnt take drugs too?
hiv from a hate crime being discovered at a rave?
WHAT?
R :police:

Quoteestrogen+HEROINE

Pipe dream, I do not know of anyone having an experience of magnification because of estrogen. The normal female has a large swing of every month. The drug dealers would have a field day adding it to cut drugs. If anything the less weight and smaller size of a female makes the same dose as a larger person takes, seem stronger.

This just a reminder to all members replying to topics...

You will keep the replies civil and respectful.  If you choose not to then your ability to post replies will be removed.  This is the only warning that you will get.

Steph

Quote from: kalt on October 25, 2007, 08:04:42 AM
And, won't you also accept that some people might have greater sensetivity due to estrogen than you do?

Do you have any evidence for the 5x number in actual humans? or even 2x?

If it would work lots of people would use it (since that would allow for lower doses - and thus more/cheaper stuff).

I asked around a little bit and got a sample size of 5 with HRT and opioids and no-one had such an increase that you describe. Or is heroin different from other opioids in this respect?

Also how would bio-identical estro be different from the estro in natal females?

This is my point... surely women would have similar issues....
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 26, 2007, 07:20:20 AM
This is my point... surely women would have similar issues....
R :police:

I think she said that taking it rather than producing it naturaully has different effects....

But yea,it seems exaggerated. what about women on menopause taking estro?

i cant see a diffrence tbh... kalt seems to think the human body is physiologically different to an extent where men and women (in biological terms) react differently, although the effects of crosshormones isnt fully, or to any real extent researched with regards to thier effects on other things....
it would be my guess that there is little difference to the way an estrogen dominant system reacts, natural, or synthesised... as the bodies chemical levels will be similar.
the original point of estrogen changing neurological receptors would DEFFINAELY effect natal females anyway. so as they can take these substances without automatically keeling over and dieing, it cant be that bad,
weather we should be discussing ILEGAL NARCOTICS... on this forum, or how safe it is to take them with hrt, can only promote thier use. and ilegal drug promotion is probably not on susans list of things to do...
R :police:

The way I think about this is. . . I don't plan to be doing heroine or any illegal drugs so I should be fine regardless of whatever science is out there :D

Sure it's the ignorant approach, but who cares!!!

Quote from: Rachael on October 26, 2007, 01:55:10 PM
i cant see a diffrence tbh... kalt seems to think the human body is physiologically different to an extent where men and women (in biological terms) react differently, although the effects of crosshormones isnt fully, or to any real extent researched with regards to thier effects on other things....
it would be my guess that there is little difference to the way an estrogen dominant system reacts, natural, or synthesised... as the bodies chemical levels will be similar.
the original point of estrogen changing neurological receptors would DEFFINAELY effect natal females anyway. so as they can take these substances without automatically keeling over and dieing, it cant be that bad,
weather we should be discussing ILEGAL NARCOTICS... on this forum, or how safe it is to take them with hrt, can only promote thier use. and ilegal drug promotion is probably not on susans list of things to do...
R :police:

Yes, but not talking about this sort of thing is how people DO make mistakes.  Fear just leads to ignorance, which leads to a more dangerous world.  No one in this thread is glorifying drug use, just wanting facts.  Plus this thread isn't limited to illlegal drug use, it also includes alcohol use.

It is an important health concern for anyone to know the details of.

I would say the extent to which drugs and sex are NOT talked about in at least american society has caused more deaths and injuries than it has prevented.  Clear unbiased information should be available for people to use when deciding what sort of things they want to put into their body.

last time i checked, it was about heroin....
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 27, 2007, 01:30:06 PM
last time i checked, it was about heroin....
R :police:

QuoteThat means that popular drugs like heroine, morphine, marijuana, all have greatly increased effects.  The effects of these drugs are 5-fold greater than what would be expected with the dosage while not on estrogen therapy.  This means that not only are risks of DUI much greater, but impaired judgment will compound the risk for discovery.

:police:  Lucky we have courts.

All right! 5 times the high, dude! *rolls a joint*

Joking... maybe. LOL

Anyway, seriously, from my experience I'm a much cheaper drunk than I was before -- but I also lost weight, so that could be a factor. And also I don't drink that much these days, which also probably is a factor. I also rarely get drunk, I just sip wine during a meal, or have my nice expensive alcohol to enjoy. I'm more of a social drinker, and picky about what I want. So, I don't know if it's really the HRT, since other factors play into it.

As for drugs, I don't really do them -- well, I had some green herbal stuff yesterday  ::) (hey, I live in Canada). I have it from time to time. I don't think it seems to affect me more than it did before, however. I don't do it often, however, so I don't need much. A puff or two and I'm set. Other than that, I don't do the other stuff, since it makes me sick and I usually affect badly to it. The last time I had the hard stuff was when it was slipped into my drink and I was unaware of it. Yay for date rape drug! Which, I'm allergic too. So, no, I don't touch that kind of stuff. I've had ex-friends who are addicts and I've seen what it does to their life, and I also grew up around that with my mom, so I wouldn't want that for myself.


--natalie

QuoteThe way I think about this is. . . I don't plan to be doing heroine or any illegal drugs so I should be fine regardless of whatever science is out there  :D

Sure it's the ignorant approach, but who cares!!!

I'm with you on this, Shanetastic.  In this case ignorance might well contribute to bliss.

I lost my kid brother to heroin in 1998.  He was about 6'2" tall and weighed well over 200 pounds, no estrogen present in him, just heroin.

Wing Walker
Fly Away From Drugs, Especially Street Stuff

The word illegal does not always pose a threat to the individual sometimes it created by those in charge to manipulate people to their advantage such as in book burning.

what is the greatest killer with relation to narcotics?
the drug?
the substances thier cut with?
the culture?

nope, anti drug groups and missinformation, and excessive criminalisation to the point people with problems relating to a specific narcotic cannot get medical help.
one of the most public cases of death from extacy in the uk was the girls parents fault.... they paniced when she came home after taking some, and literally force fed her water till she died of blood solute flushing...
the greatest killer is words...
R :police:

Well...Its about time those drugs did something besides inducing coughing! :D

But seriously...

I'm pretty much a Caffeine lover more than anything else. As long as I can do my work in peace, I'm not THAT unsatisfied with the secular view of things.
Not that pot shouldn't be legalized. There's far worse in the pharmacy.
Its not like I'm gonna be a cokehead. :laugh:

its safer to be a cokehead than to smoke weed regularly....
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on December 02, 2007, 04:26:54 AM
its safer to be a cokehead than to smoke weed regularly....
R :police:

???

omg, i foxed susans resident narcotics expert :S
R :police:

i agree (with Rachael?) that marijuana can be very harmful.

it would seem to cause the brain to dump large quantities of important brain chemistry into the system, so that the user is left with a dangerous shortage.

having said that, i do believe it is a very important drug, especially in regards to the study and treatment of depression. but it should be standardized and made available by prescription only.

Quote from: ell on December 02, 2007, 01:59:10 PM
having said that, i do believe it is a very important drug, especially in regards to the study and treatment of depression. but it should be standardized and made available by prescription only.

that would still leave the problem of cops being killed over a substance no worse than alcohol, people who are just curious becoming criminals, and that the government could make a fortune by allow it to be legal and taxing the hell out of it just like they do tobacco.  people are still going to smoke that junk either way.

Quote from: kalt on December 02, 2007, 04:41:50 PM

Quote from: ell on December 02, 2007, 01:59:10 PM
having said that, i do believe it is a very important drug, especially in regards to the study and treatment of depression. but it should be standardized and made available by prescription only.

that would still leave the problem of cops being killed over a substance no worse than alcohol, people who are just curious becoming criminals, and that the government could make a fortune by allow it to be legal and taxing the hell out of it just like they do tobacco.  people are still going to smoke that junk either way.

someone has a very negative turn of mind today, i see (i won't name names). i suspect it is because you, like me, are prone to reacting rather than acting. let's try to put our heads together and see how we can change that, hmm?

-ell

Quote from: kalt on December 02, 2007, 04:41:50 PM

Quote from: ell on December 02, 2007, 01:59:10 PM
having said that, i do believe it is a very important drug, especially in regards to the study and treatment of depression. but it should be standardized and made available by prescription only.

that would still leave the problem of cops being killed over a substance no worse than alcohol, people who are just curious becoming criminals, and that the government could make a fortune by allow it to be legal and taxing the hell out of it just like they do tobacco.  people are still going to smoke that junk either way.

tobacco and alcohol dont have links to schistophrenia and paranoia related mentall illness...
R

Quote from: Rachael on December 02, 2007, 06:10:23 PM
tobacco and alcohol dont have links to schistophrenia and paranoia related mentall illness...

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Alcoholism%20and%20Psychiatric%20Disorders%20%20%20Diagnostic%20Challenges.pdf
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh26-2/90-98.htm
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Psychiatric_Disorders/Substance_abuse_disorders#Alcohol_2
http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/feat/alcohol.htm

Alcohol is just as much a drug as crystal meth.

QuoteAlcohol is just as much a drug as crystal meth

Or perhaps caffeine, salt, or fat.

Quote from: lisagurl on December 02, 2007, 07:45:39 PM

QuoteAlcohol is just as much a drug as crystal meth

Or perhaps caffeine, salt, or fat.

Meth is pyschoactive and severely impairs judgement and puts the life of anyone around the user at risk, as well as being physically detrimental and putting the user at risk.
Can the same not be said about alcohol?

Quote from: kalt on December 02, 2007, 07:26:45 PM
Alcohol is just as much a drug as crystal meth.

I was trying to stay out of this, really I was, because I had my day with all of this stuff.  I'm no prude, but I'm clean now.  But saying that alcohol is just as much a drug as crystal meth is like saying that pennies are just as much money as hundred dollar bills.  It may be true at some level.  Collect up enough and there is some resemblance.  But tell me this:  Would you rather climb aboard an airplane piloted by someone who has had a beer, or someone who has just done meth?  You KNOW what the answer here is!  Both can be abused, but it is not the norm.

I have worked with a number of people trying to put their lives back together after heavy use of drugs and/or alcohol.  When we are young we think we are immortal.  I see that in some of the responses here.  With the benefit of years we see how ridiculous that view was.  By then a lot of damage is done, much of it irrepairable.  Estrogen plus illegal drugs is asking for trouble.    I know I will never convince some of that for now.  Some will have to learn the hard way.  But I promose you, you will agree with me either now or later.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: lisagurl on December 02, 2007, 07:45:39 PM

QuoteAlcohol is just as much a drug as crystal meth

Or perhaps caffeine, salt, or fat.

Hahah

Quote from: Kristi on December 02, 2007, 09:41:45 PM
But saying that alcohol is just as much a drug as crystal meth is like saying that 100000 pennies are just as much money as hundred dollar bills.

Fixed.

QuoteIt may be true at some level.  Collect up enough and there is some resemblance.

They are both psychoactive mood altering drugs that severely effect mood and heavy use of both are both associated with higher mortality and medical complications.

QuoteBut tell me this:  Would you rather climb aboard an airplane piloted by someone who has had a beer, or someone who has just done meth?

If the dosage of meth was the same as a beer would be, as in not enough to do anything but a light buzz at the MOST, then the pilot might as well have just had the equivalent of a few cups of coffee.

QuoteBoth can be abused, but it is not the norm.

Eh?  Were the drug legal then the norm would not be to abuse it.  It might be used as regularly as caffiene for all you know.  Making something forbidden automatically raises its appeal.  Making something that isn't much worse than other substances that are legal illegal just kills cops and funds gang activity and crime.  Taking the primary source of income of crime away would probably be one of the best things this world could do.  People will still smoke pot either way, they'll still do crystal meth, they'll still do cocaine.  The American alcohol prohibition is a fine example of how illegal substances are still abused, and how crime is drastically reduced when it's made legal.

QuoteI have worked with a number of people trying to put their lives back together after heavy use of drugs and/or alcohol.  When we are young we think we are immortal.  I see that in some of the responses here.  With the benefit of years we see how ridiculous that view was.  By then a lot of damage is done, much of it irrepairable.

I don't advocate the use of non-prescribed substances in any way, shape, or form.  I highly reccomend against it if you want to see over 70.

QuoteEstrogen plus illegal drugs is asking for trouble.    I know I will never convince some of that for now.  Some will have to learn the hard way.  But I promose you, you will agree with me either now or later.

Who are you arguing with?

maybe its harder on your system as its being taken not produced, but i cant see E making the effects any different to those of natal females...
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on December 03, 2007, 04:10:09 AM
maybe its harder on your system as its being taken not produced, but i cant see E making the effects any different to those of natal females...
R :police:

Synthetic Estrogen=/=Natural estrogen.
Horse estrogen=/=natural estrogen.

That doesn't mean I'm against taking it and all.

But I honestly realized shortly after the start of this thread I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to make a discussion out of this material:-p

Horse pee is an awesome source of estrogen -- I decided to go the cheap route and visit a local farm and collect my own horse pee. I freeze it to keep it fresh. And, then I just mix it up with slim fast in the morning. The taste gets a little getting to used to, but dude, double D breasts in a couple of months. It works. hehe. Now, can someone pass me another doobie?

>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

Quote from: kalt on December 03, 2007, 03:24:41 PM

Quote from: Rachael on December 03, 2007, 04:10:09 AM
maybe its harder on your system as its being taken not produced, but i cant see E making the effects any different to those of natal females...
R :police:

Synthetic Estrogen=/=Natural estrogen.
Horse estrogen=/=natural estrogen.

That doesn't mean I'm against taking it and all.

But I honestly realized shortly after the start of this thread I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to make a discussion out of this material:-p

There are plenty of opioids used in medicine (e.g. codeine, hydrocodone, morphine, tilidine, tramadol). And they don't interact with hormonal contraceptives (ethinyl estradiol) or HRT (17beta-estradiol) in natal women.

Doctors here don't think that being mtf on HRT affects how opioids should be prescribed in any way and they seem to be right.

whatever the effects, it doesnt change the legality of any drugs. and its on your own head if you take them, and being on hrt causes you to die... its your own damn fault. compassion? what am?
R :police:

Quote from: gothique11 on December 04, 2007, 12:19:41 AM
Horse pee is an awesome source of estrogen -- I decided to go the cheap route and visit a local farm and collect my own horse pee. I freeze it to keep it fresh. And, then I just mix it up with slim fast in the morning.

ROFL-L-L-L-L   OMG, Natalie! that is just about the silliest thing i've ever heard!!!!
*ell hugs Natalie and squishes her ears*

Quote from: gothique11 on December 04, 2007, 12:19:41 AM
Horse pee is an awesome source of estrogen -- I decided to go the cheap route and visit a local farm and collect my own horse pee. I freeze it to keep it fresh. And, then I just mix it up with slim fast in the morning. The taste gets a little getting to used to, but dude, double D breasts in a couple of months. It works. hehe. Now, can someone pass me another doobie?

>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

I collect pee from rhinos.  Srsly, works dat booty on ya!

dont even go there... my butt is annoying me from normal e ><
R :police:

Quote from: ell on December 04, 2007, 07:51:19 PM

Quote from: gothique11 on December 04, 2007, 12:19:41 AM
Horse pee is an awesome source of estrogen -- I decided to go the cheap route and visit a local farm and collect my own horse pee. I freeze it to keep it fresh. And, then I just mix it up with slim fast in the morning.

ROFL-L-L-L-L   OMG, Natalie! that is just about the silliest thing i've ever heard!!!!
*ell hugs Natalie and squishes her ears*

:laugh: thats hilarious