Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Quote from: Leigh on January 21, 2006, 02:25:18 PM
What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

The revival...

If you could choose just one of total passing or complete acceptance which would you choose, and why?


Clarification:

In this context total passing means looking/sounding and everything else external to that of a GG but NOT being accepted as one, i.e. being seen as an imposter.
While, complete acceptance is NOT looking like a girl, but being accepted as one.

In essence is looking the part (passing) or living the part (acceptance) more important to you?

Another way of looking at it is, is who you are alone (passing) more important than how others regard you (acceptance)

[edit]for clarification[/edit]

Complete Acceptance

Because...

Quote from: Andre Gide
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

An given the choice, I'd rather be loved and accepted for what I am.

Acceptance for me... looks are not everything.  There are men who don't look like men, just as there are women who don't look like women.  But they are still men and women and always will be.

Steph

I think that being totally accepted is to be passing.  That's my definition.  I'm not sure how the two could be mutually exclusive but if they are, aceeptance is key.

Passing means that to all appearences this person a female.  There are no external clues that this person has been seen as male but is not treated as female by people.

Acceptance is when despite an appearence that may display male characteristics, this person is treated in every manner by every person as female.

It is possible to be either one, both or none of the above.

No question in my mind. I'd rather be accepted for who I am.
:)
Jillieann

Quotethis person is treated in every manner by every person as female

.


And even at times in greasy duds with wrenches in the hip pocket ......  Only they don't beleive you know what to do with them.

Terri

Acceptance without question. As has been pointed out acceptance is passing but passing is not necessarily acceptance.

Cassie

I'm with Helen on this matter. Looks give the first impression which can bring acceptance.

Sara.

Ok.  First let me say this poll seems simple but I think its getting too complicated by the minute.   But I personally would prefer to be completely accepted as a girl anytime.   I hope I would still look totally passable though in the process.

Cheers,


joanna

Oh, that is a good point Melissa and I agree, it is quite a parallel to that question. (=

It has to be acceptance.

I think that learning to accept people for who they are, not who you want them to be, would make this world a lot more peaceful & friendly.

Chaunte

To be contrary, I contend this poll is meaningless.  Sure, as an exercise, it sounds well and good to say acceptance trumps passing but in the real world, it doesn't work that way.  Women who look and act the part usually gain greater acceptance than those who don't.  There are exceptions--women who overcome their poor passability and gain acceptance but it isn't that common.  That is why so many of us spend so much time trying to improve our presentation and passability.  Transgender *isn't* well accepted, that's the reality.  Acceptance is most often gained through congruence with our chosen gender. 

Dawn

Passing or presentation is having the appearence of being female.

Acceptence is when you are accepted even if your presentation does not necessarily represent a female.

DawnL said

" Transgender *isn't* well accepted, that's the reality.  Acceptance is most often gained through congruence with our chosen gender."

I think that this really spells it out in so many ways... I truly believe now more than ever that we mostly get back what exactly we put out there and how we do it...

If the self-confidence and comfort that so easily comes, and sometimes quite literally, shines,
from the sense and relief of someone that's radiating a much more truly unedited self-expression, as a beautiful and self-empowering by-product of greater "self-congruence" - if this is what REALLY comes across, oh well then - 
For all the critics, it's just so aggregiously sad - horribly dark, and i think sickeningly brutal for their own spirit, that they cannot even recognize true self-acknowledgement, and of someone joyously excercising the right of living free will and genuine lovingness, even when it's staring them straight in the face...

Lovingly always,
Sincerely,


Annagirl

I guess I was lucky - SRS at 24, on HRT for most of 10 years before that, skinny, and pretty. "Passing" was never an issue.

Years went by, I gained weight, I stopped caring how I looked, and age took it's toll on my looks, but I had "acceptance", even in my worst moments.

"Passing" is fun, especially when done well but "acceptance" is important to your mental health.

Going on 32 years post-op now and few people would ever guess where I started  ;D

Thanks for the bit of info Jane.  That makes a lot of sense.

Melissa

                    Unfortunately, one will never be accepted by strangers unless they pass, even if they are completely accepted by friends and family. Acceptance without passing only comes with familiarity.



beth

First, Thank you, Leigh, for broaching the original subject.  It was something I really needed to think about for a while.

At the risk of sounding like a 'me, too' post--

I'd have to say that if it were an either-or choice, I'd have to choose acceptance. 

Passing would be nice, but there's always that dark secret deep within you that you can't share.

Acceptance means that everybody knows you spent time as the other gender, but it's just a fact that doesn't make a difference.  People are treating you with the respect due a fellow human being.

The dilemma here is that it's not a perfect world and there are those persons who will use your condition as a means to -- in their own mind -- make you less than human, make you a loser, relative to them.  These are the people who will NEVER accept me because, to them, I'm a 'freak' or worse.  Guranteed passing with these people would be relatively safe (though I suspect that with these same individuals I might be at risk for being raped by them.)

As an aside (and because I'm thinking about it,) people often 'script' their lives.  IOW, they have a metaphor of their life as a hollywood movie with them as the star, and they have a 'script' with a whole bunch of both major and minor characters in it (bad-guys are examples of major characters, and are used to make the 'star' more important-seeming.)  One subset of minor characters in these scripts could be labeled 'FREAKS!'.  I'm anticipating that some day I'll run into someone with such a script, they'll read me and announce in a loud voice that carries (or otherwise broadcast their identification to the world, ) "You're a FREAK!!!"  I hope when that day comes (it will,) that the situation is such that I can with relative safety answer, "No, I'm YOUR freak."

I'd definitely prefer 100% accetance.  The strain of trying to pass all over again, this time as female, is something I don't wish to repeat.

Haz

I voted for passing. To be honest, I personally could not bear to present myself in public if I didn't think I'd pass. To look in the mirror and see a non-passable reflection would be devastating. But, that's just me and my opinion only. :)

On the other hand, if everyone who knew me insisted on calling me "he", even though it does get on my nerves, strangers would just wonder why the heck they're saying that. (In this scenario they couldn't catch on, since that would mean not passing.)

It's an easy question, acceptance is the most important. Passing without acceptance is worthless.





beth

Quote from: umop ap!sdn on March 04, 2006, 01:08:16 PM
I voted for passing. 

Am I understanding that you would rather appear as a woman and be treated like a man?

QuoteOn the other hand, if everyone who knew me insisted on calling me "he", even though it does get on my nerves, strangers would just wonder why the heck they're saying that. (In this scenario they couldn't catch on, since that would mean not passing

Oh they would catch on. 

Quote from: beth on February 01, 2006, 01:02:26 PM
                    Unfortunately, one will never be accepted by strangers unless they pass, even if they are completely accepted by friends and family. Acceptance without passing only comes with familiarity.



beth

I agree with that statement. I think both are important. I chose pass because most of the time I wouldn't be around the people that accepted or knew me. If you pass you are autmatically accepted and life is much easier. I know it sounds like going stealth, but you don't have to out yourself to complete total strangers.

Quote from: Leigh on March 04, 2006, 02:05:03 PM
Am I understanding that you would rather appear as a woman and be treated like a man?

No, that's not what I meant to imply. 

QuoteOh they would catch on. 

But that would mean not passing. Passing, as I understand the term, means one who does not already know assumes that you're the gender you wish to be seen as. Well yeah, who doesn't want that? But because of the aforementioned automatic acceptance thing, maybe that isn't what is being asked in this poll.

So then my options are thus:
- Not pass but be accepted and have to put up with the same issues I did growing up (e.g. dislike for my own appearance), or
- Look, sound, feel, etc exactly as I want to and be happy with myself, but have to put up with the same issues I face now (e.g. pronoun usage, especially in the workplace).

Reflecting on the times when I was accepted but maybe didn't quite pass, and on the times when I'm passable but someone spoiled it for me, the former were more pleasant experiences, but on the other hand I'm happier now then I was before realizing that I need to do this. So for me there's no easy answer.

I would rather Pass and be treated as a woman rather than just Accepted that I'm transsexual and be treated as such.

Melissa

Acceptance, definitely.

As a man I normally wear a full beard.  My wife likes it and I think I look good in a beard.  I have worn a beard for over 30 years.  Occasionally I have shaved to achieve a more feminine appearance (not that I ever really come close to passing).  Normally at home I will dress en femme without shaving.

I have on occasion attended meetings of the local TG support group (a mixed group of CD and TS) dressed in a skirt and wearing a beard.  (I have not done this often, but I have done it on more than just a few occasions.)  In such a situation I definitely do not pass, but I definitely would like to be accepted--by other members of the TG community, and in my fondest dreams by anyone.

Louise,
The bearded lady

Quote from: Louise on March 06, 2006, 11:50:14 PM
I have on occasion attended meetings of the local TG support group (a mixed group of CD and TS) dressed in a skirt and wearing a beard. 

Also known as gender-bending.  :icon_grandmar:

Hey Steph  :icon_wave:, you should add Gender-bender to the wiki.  I noticed it's not there.

Melissa

Hey there Melissa.

Thaks for that, I'll check into it and see where it goes.

Steph

 I choose acceptance. I'd rather be accepted for what I am be it male or female.

Owen
love being female ::)

Not being a male I resent being eferred to as one.  No matter how good I can manage to look infem having people refer to me as "He" is a disrespect from those that know what I am doing.

I would select acceptance for being what I am and to be treated as a female of the species.  I'v allready spent 50 years being tolerated or allowed threw, there is no longer any room for anything but acceptance, even if I arn't one of the pretty ones.

Treat me as I give and I give so much more .......

Terri Gene

Interesting. I'm assuming the passing option means I have to walk around with a "Used to be a man" taped to my forhead or something (since no one would otherwise know)?

Still, I choose total passing. Considering all my rants elsewhere, I'm surprised at myself. Huh. I'm shallow. Whadaya know?

But somehow total passing would give *me* internal peace. If I was THAT happy with myself, I could deal with the barbs society throws at me. *I* wouldn't feel like an imposter, regardless of what people say. And I could work for acceptance - or at least hope for it someday.

But after all my rantings about how it's not worth transitioning if everyone hates you afterwards, even if you're being true to yourself... now I'm contradicting myself. Great... I'm gonna be pondering why I chose that all week now, lol. I just learned something... I'm just not sure what it is yet ;)

I just had a thought about this.  Passing is something you have control over.  Acceptance is something within other that you do not have control of.  This in one of the reasons I chose passing, because I know it's obtainable, but I'm not going to hold my breath and wait for everyone to be accepting.  That the realist side of me.

Melissa

Keep in mind this is a fantasy land question; Optimal case not at all based on reality, rather to get you to think about your preferences and why.

Think of it like this.

You could be absolutely beautiful, have everything you do be appropiate to your gender but everyone knows your past and will not accept you as female or male.

OR

You could be a less than beauttiful woman or man, to the point that everyone knows your past but you are admitted to the inner circle without any reservations what so ever.

Well, that changes things.  Rather than "passing", we have changed it to "look just like a woman".  A good instance of this would be a beautiful transsexual who becomes famous on TV.

Now that we have changed the choices between acceptance and beauty, I would have to go with acceptance.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on March 16, 2006, 01:40:31 PMNow that we have changed the choices between acceptance and beauty, I would have to go with acceptance.

I'm stickin' with Total Passing, though I'll clarify that it has nothing to do with a desire to be beautiful, but rather to be convincingly female.

The source of my angst is a need to be female, and not necessarily feminine (though it's implied to some extent). So I couldn't possibly pass up the opportunity to be so convincingly female, since that would heal my internal angst. The attached acceptance problems would certainly be painful, but in a different way, no different than any other bigotry. It's a bit like the difference between being made fun of because you're bald, versus being made fun of because you're wearing a toupee.

If I chose Total Acceptance, I'd STILL feel that awful dispair whenever I saw my masculine self in the mirror. In a way, I'm already living this option to a small extent. I certainly don't pass, and no one *literally* thinks I'm a woman, but I'm often treated as if I am by everyone who knows me - though mostly in subtle ways. I've had women talk about their period in front of me suddenly ask me about mine.. then realize their mistake a few seconds later. Weird stuff like that happens to me all the time, though I can't explain why, as I'm honestly Just Another Guy in the crowd. But I'm certainly not treated the same was as the other guys I know. And yet... it's not enough, and never could be.

It just dawned on me that I have been faced with this choice recently.  At my last support group meeting, I had the choice to wear my wig and be quite passable, or go with just the hair on my head and be much less passable, but my true self.  I decided on going without the wig. It was great.  I felt so much better about myself, because wearing it just made me feel fake, but I had people compliment me on my real hair.  I even went without breastforms because I'm starting to show in the right shirts.  So, I'll stand by my decision change.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on March 16, 2006, 02:43:21 PM
It just dawned on me that I have been faced with this choice recently.  At my last support group meeting, I had the choice to wear my wig and be quite passable, or go with just the hair on my head and be much less passable, but my true self.  I decided on going without the wig. It was great.  I felt so much better about myself, because wearing it just made me feel fake, but I had people compliment me on my real hair.  I even went without breastforms because I'm starting to show in the right shirts.  So, I'll stand by my decision change.

Ironically, we may be saying the same thing. The idea seems to be one of self-acceptance, that if you're comfortable with yourself, content that you're finally really, truly YOU, then the barbs thrown at you don't hurt so much - or at least not in the same way.

You accepted yourself in going to that meeting, which is wonderful! I envy that in the posts I read around this forum, and I'm trying to find that peace for myself as well. But in the scenario we're discussing, being Totally Passable is my way of finding instant self-acceptance, since I'd have no doubts about me appearance, mannerisms, voice, etc.

EDIT: One might say you're accepting yourself regardless of how you look, and I'm accepting myself regardless of what people say. Now if we can just *combine* those two in real life...

My point was that everyone else was accepting, so that made me feel more comfortable.

Melissa

The classical definition of passing is not being "read"  or seen as anything other than female.

Being seen as female is not the same as being accepted as one.

Passing, hands down.  If I am seen as a guy, I will be accepted as one.

Personally I'd like to totally pass since then I am identified as a woman by looks and how I act.

For me, being accepted as a woman is more important.  what is the point of  passing as a woman if you are not accepted as one?



tinkerbell

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it's acceptance for me.  To that end I believe that co-workers who new the old me may even be accepting me as well.  Of course you simply can't ask them, but there are clues out there.  I know that with the female employees in the office that I'm always included in their conversations now, where before if the subject turned to feminine issues they would move off or lower their voices for privacy.  Now I'm included and my opinions asked which is really great.  As far as the men who knew me before I think that it's going to be harder for them.  For the new employees, both male and female who only know Steph they have no problem accepting me.

Yep hands down it's acceptance.  Passing is nice, but being accepted as a woman for me means much more.

Steph

Yes, I now have to agree with acceptance.  Originally I thought I would choose passing (like 6 months ago), but I have learned that it's more important to be accepted for who you are than to pass as something you may not be.

Melissa

I'm trying to imagine these scenarios in real life...

I see Total Acceptance as making no physical changes, yet crossdressing consistently while interacting only with coworkers, family and friends who all know you're a physical male, yet who treat you as the woman you really are regardless. You look like a man in a dress, yet people are kind enough to treat you for who you are inside. And yet whenever you're alone, whenever you look in the mirror, whenever you get a shower... you see a man. You're not female by any stretch of the imagination, but you get to live within the cultural roles of a woman.

I see Total Passing as using HRT, FFS, and SRS to be unambiguously female, yet interacting only with coworkers, family and friends who know your history and continue to treat you as if you're male regardless. When YOU look at yourself, you feel physically and emotionally complete, since you're now as physically female as can be... the only problem is the bigotry of an intolerant society.

For those of you who chose Total Acceptance... why then seek hormones and possibly SRS? Do you feel they are expected of you by society in order to be granted acceptance by them? Are you making physical changes to fit into a cultural role? Do you then find "passing" important only because people will then treat you as a woman, and not because it matches your own physical self-image?

See, I always thought of TSism as being a *primarily* physical condition, where one's body image doesn't match the internal gender identity. Having to live in a male role kinda sucks too, but changing roles doesn't fix the root problem of being a physical male. If I chose Total Acceptance, I'd still be crying myself to sleep every night because I wasn't female.

So for some of you, is the role, the cultural interactions more important to you than being physically female?

Quote from: Kate on June 26, 2006, 09:44:20 AM
For those of you who chose Total Acceptance... why then seek hormones and possibly SRS?

I think you succintly answered your own question with:

Quote from: Kate on June 26, 2006, 09:44:20 AM
I'd still be crying myself to sleep every night because I wasn't female.

We change our bodies for ourselves, not for society.  However, society does not show total acceptance, which is why some people choose to have FFS.  The fact is, the prettier you are, the more accepted by society you are and the better life is.  I think you're confusing realism with idealism.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on June 26, 2006, 10:25:16 AM
I think you succintly answered your own question with:
We change our bodies for ourselves, not for society.  However, society does not show total acceptance, which is why some people choose to have FFS.  The fact is, the prettier you are, the more accepted by society you are and the better life is.  I think you're confusing realism with idealism.

Well no, I'm working within the confines of the hypothetical question:

a) I can be physically male, yet be accepted as a woman (role-wise) by my culture

     or

b) I can be physically female, yet be considered a man by my culture

It seems many people value the woman's cultural role over the female physical form. That's very surprising to me.

Kate, you are only looking at the extremes.  Try going by these definitions.

Quote from: Leigh on March 16, 2006, 11:21:43 AM
Think of it like this.

You could be absolutely beautiful, have everything you do be appropiate to your gender but everyone knows your past and will not accept you as female or male.

OR

You could be a less than beauttiful woman or man, to the point that everyone knows your past but you are admitted to the inner circle without any reservations what so ever.

You are basically comparing a crossdresser with a GG, but you leave no room in the middle for a TS.  this is what it means to me for the definitions.

1. You are a completely beautiful woman and look and sound completely female.  Nobody knows about your past, but you would be ostracized if they ever found out, so you must keep this secret buried.

2. You are a woman that has some gender variant features, but everybody knows about your past and they completely accept you as a woman.  You need to hide nothing.

This is basically the Stealth/Out and Proud paradigm.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on June 26, 2006, 11:24:28 AM
1. You are a completely beautiful woman and look and sound completely female.  Nobody knows about your past, but you would be ostracized if they ever found out, so you must keep this secret buried.

2. You are a woman that has some gender variant features, but everybody knows about your past and they completely accept you as a woman.  You need to hide nothing.

This is basically the Stealth/Out and Proud paradigm.

Melissa

Hmmm, true, much more realistic options... and yet I'd still pick #1, although it has nothing to do with being "beautiful," and everything to do with being female. It's not that "gender variant features" would bother me because I'd be ugly, but rather because my dysphoria is directly proportional to my physical maleness.

Yes, having to watch my back constantly would be awful. BUT, the internal gender dysphoria would be GONE finally. I'd be happy with me, though I realize OTHER people may not. I'd just be left with facing the usual cultural bigotries, which many people face every day anyway.

If I chose to live with "gender variant features," those variances would forever persist the dysphoria. Yes, the acceptance would be wonderful, but I'd be unhappy with ME. And not because I'm ugly, but rather because I'm not unambiguously female.

In the end, it seems that to cure my own dysphoria, I need to accept MYSELF. Whether other people accept me or not is an important secondary concern, but it has no bearing on (what I'm calling) my transsexual angst. No amount of acceptance or love will ever cure the fact that I'm male. Offer me the chance to remove all ambiguity, and I'm going to take it - as a cure at last.

Now, if I could learn to still see myself as female in spite of those "gender variant features," then I could have it all :)

When you start transitioning and start getting ma'amed when you think you are passing as a guy, then I think things start to change.  For me, living as a woman and being accepted as one is much more important than looking 100% female.  Besides, if I got every surgery available, I'd be broke.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on June 26, 2006, 11:59:06 AM
When you start transitioning and start getting ma'amed when you think you are passing as a guy, then I think things start to change.  For me, living as a woman and being accepted as one is much more important than looking 100% female.

And a very realistic and healthy attitude to have, methinks... one that I hope to learn to accept for myself, as I'm not likely to ever pass at all, let alone 100%.

But you're right, things certainly do change as we move along. I'm still on the other side of the fence from you, a normal-appearing male, so passing is a utopian dream for me right now. If I *was* passing already as a female as you are, then sure... acceptance would move to the forefront.

And yet, the question is exclusive: passing OR acceptance? Female form OR female role? Female OR woman? Female OR traditionally feminine?

If you keep the question purely hypothetical and extreme, it *does* seem to cleanly divide the motivations of transsexuals from that of crossdressers - at least in how I've come to think of it. I've always assumed that transsexuals crave the female physical form first, with the role and acceptance hopefully falling into place along with it. And I assume that crossdressers (well, more accurately: transgenderists) crave the role and acceptance of being a cultural "woman" without wanting to change their physical sex - though they'll reluctantly consider some changes if it gains them the role.

Or, I could be completely wrong, lol...

Here's the kicker.  I'm sure that much of the reason you want to pass 100% is so that you will be completely accepted as female.

However, if you didn't have to try so hard and were able to just relax and be yourself, wouldn't that make life much more enjoyable?

Quote from: Kate on June 26, 2006, 02:09:41 PM
And yet, the question is exclusive: passing OR acceptance?

The question was not passing or acceptance.  It is total passing or complete acceptance.  There is a big difference there.  What that means is you could pass part of the time and be completely accepted or pass all the time and just be partly accepted.  Isn't people accepting you for who you are, rather than what you look like more important?

The reason I am saying all of these things, is because they are what changed in my mind since I started answering this.

Melissa

Passing is not relevant as some would say to me

Acceptance is..BUT...ONLY acceptance within myself which as taken 29years to accomplish

However externaly I would rather a person accept me for being a woman even through I look like a man than be this bombshell drop dead georgeous looking woman that people just look at as a beautiful man in a dress
Chynna

Quote from: Melissa on June 26, 2006, 02:23:07 PM
Here's the kicker.  I'm sure that much of the reason you want to pass 100% is so that you will be completely accepted as female.

LOL, well no, I'd still rather be a normal physical female (not beautiful, just an average-looking female) in a world intolerant of transsexuals. Even if in this world everyone knows I'm a transsexual (maybe I have to wear a I WAS MALE button, lol), insists on calling me by my male name, forces me to continue wear male clothing, keeps my legal sex markers male, etc.

That's still preferable to a world where everyone treats me like a woman, encourages me to wear female clothing, calls me Kate, considers me legally female... yet where I'm still obviously a male physically. No amount of external validation will ever change the fact that I'm still male(ish)... and it's those male qualities which make me miserable.

Maybe I'm nuts, maybe for me it's more of a body dysmorphic disorder perhaps? It's curious that if someone refers to me as being female, it Rings True, sounds right, makes me smile and feels right. But if someone refers to me as a woman, I tend to cringe a bit, it sounds... presumptuous, off-base, inaccurate. I can easily say I want to be female without any doubts. I hesitate to say I want to be a woman, as I really don't aspire to it. It's a secondary issue.

I don't know what any of that means though, lol...

QuoteIsn't people accepting you for who you are, rather than what you look like more important?

Of course, but *neither* option would address my transsexualism. Acceptance is an issue when playing a role, a part, important when attempting to be a "woman," yet irrelevant to being *female*.

For me, I guess it goes back to that "better to be hated for what you are, rather than loved for what you're not" cliche. I'd rather know that I'm female, yet be hated for having once been male... than be a physical male who is treated AS IF I was female.

Quote from: KateAnd yet, the question is exclusive: passing OR acceptance? Female form OR female role? Female OR woman? Female OR traditionally feminine?

There is a huge difference between passing and acceptance.  For example acceptance is far more complicated and very difficult if not impossible to achieve.  Lets say I  was FtM, and transitioned at work where the work force was mixed male and female.  As a woman I belonged to that club, was privy to and included in the activities of women.  Men treated me like a woman, in every way and the way they treated me would depend on my looks as a female, and hopefully my skills.

Now as a FtM I'm switching teams.  I could pass being the greatest looking male the world had ever seen, but would that mean I would instantly earn the right to be thought of as a male and share in all the rights and privileges of the male clan.  Remember, as a woman I could have been the butt of their jokes, members of the male group could have had a crush on me, some males may have even fantasized about me, you get the idea.  I have now changed all of that.  The women who I just left would feel much the same way.  That I'm just trying to gain advantage, trying to get ahead, etc.  Being accepted is being included and associated with all things either male or female as applicable, without reservation, being taken into their trust and confided in as a male or female.

Take to day for example, there were four of us girls in the office chatting away as girls do and we got onto the subject of bikini waxes and our experiences, and it got quite descriptive in describing how we experienced it and how our various body parts reacted.  Prior to transition I would never have been included is such a conversation.  Even when I first transitioned I was kept at arms length so to speak, but now I'm included and asked for my opinion, they are accepting me as a woman, and being included in their activities, they accompany me to the washroom, and visa-versa without concern.  Remember that these people knew me from before when we kidded and flirted with each other as males and females do, so to me this is being accepted for who I am not for what I look like.

This is how I see things.

Steph

Quote from: Kate on June 26, 2006, 09:44:20 AM


For those of you who chose Total Acceptance... why then seek hormones and possibly SRS?

Total acceptance also includes being asked to participate in every actrivity that women do.  You can be the most beautiful woman from the neck up but if you don't have breasts and have a penis there are many activities that you will be excluded from.

If a person is not accepted as their gender who do you associate with?  The good ol boys or girls from your past?  Where do you fit in and with whom? 

Neither fish nor fowl.

Leigh

Quote from: cindianna_jones on July 02, 2006, 12:58:34 AM
Seriously, I don't worry about passing.  I haven't for years. (although there was a time where this was my only goal in life). So acceptance seems the only other answer.

That's a good point, and makes me wonder if our answers reflect our particular current situations. Those that pass might naturally focus on acceptance, and those that are more comfortable with how they're treated might long to pass.

For myself, "acceptance" wouldn't change much in my life. Although my being male biases people's reactions in many ways, I'm still treated for who I am.. at least by people who get to know me. But being a guy, I obvious don't "pass," and thus it becomes the most frustrating thing for me. I *am* "accepted", to some degree - until the physicalness gets in the way.

Seeking acceptance into women's roles as a priority is actually a bit of a red flag when diagnosing transsexualism. "True Selves" lists:

"Effeminate men who are uncomfortable in their gender role but not with their own their gender identity (they may deem it easier to change sex than to struggle in their roles or deal with their issues)"

as NOT being a reason to transition.

People so often "conclude" that they they are transsexual, based on a history of feminine behaviour or longing for female role activities. And yet, were that true, than all effeminate gay men must simply be transsexuals in denial.

Instead, it seems like the instinct, urge, or compulsion to be physically female - to "pass" in our *own* eyes - exists independently of feminine behaviour, mannerisms, role, and so on. It's just the strangest thing...

Quote from: cindianna_jones on July 02, 2006, 12:58:34 AM
But as many of you are starting out... consider this:  Do women, regardless of appearance, pass anything?

I think a few have been known to pass kidney stones. ;D

Quote from: cindianna_jones on July 02, 2006, 12:58:34 AM
Those who "just do it" get along just fine. 

Great point.  That kind of describes me.  I don't worry about whether I pass or not.  I just go out and be myself and end up enjoying the moment.  If we constantly worry about others then we are not really helping our dysphoria.

Melissa

Another question inside a question for this thread:

Should a woman who has had a historectomy be excluded from certain activities that only women do since she lacks some PHYSICAL body parts?

Does that mean she is less than a 100% woman simply because she lacks some of the internal plumbing?

When does a person cease being who or what they are because they lack a physical quality or characteristic???

External or internal that is the true question?

I know another thread entirely but it does have a bearing to the question poised don't you think? ;)

Chynna

all:
total passing because Genetic Girls are not guaranteed total acceptance so why should I expect that? acceptance?  I can work on that however total passing, minga!  no brainer I could save a lot of time and effort that need to be directed to other goals in life like my pilot's licence, white river rafting, tango dancing blah blah
love sheila

Quote from: Tinkerbell on June 26, 2006, 02:47:20 AM
For me, being accepted as a woman is more important.  what is the point of  passing as a woman if you are not accepted as one?

Sigh.

I agree now. I'd change my vote to Acceptance if I could. After all those emphatic posts... me doth protested too much. I hope God at least allows me this DoOver. Art thou listening Up There? I GET it already, K?

Why must Growing Up take soooooo long?

Kate

Quote from: Kate on January 28, 2007, 10:40:43 PM

Why must Growing Up take soooooo long?

Kate

sigh - cause changing is hard - We change as we grow and sometimes we do not want to change (me included). But as a part of growing up we must learnt to accept change (yes - I need to hear this as well).

Alice

Quote from: Kimberly on January 22, 2006, 08:07:07 PM

Quote from: Leigh on January 21, 2006, 02:25:18 PM
What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one.  200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.

Leigh

The revival...

If you could choose just one of total passing or complete acceptance which would you choose, and why?


Clarification:

In this context total passing means looking/sounding and everything else external to that of a GG but NOT being accepted as one, i.e. being seen as an imposter.
While, complete acceptance is NOT looking like a girl, but being accepted as one.

In essence is looking the part (passing) or living the part (acceptance) more important to you?

Another way of looking at it is, is who you are alone (passing) more important than how others regard you (acceptance)

[edit]for clarification[/edit]

in this context i'd rather be [accepted] as a woman, yet in the real world you need to [pass] as a woman before anyone can accept you as such.

Quote from: Kate on January 28, 2007, 10:40:43 PM

Quote from: Tinkerbell on June 26, 2006, 02:47:20 AM
For me, being accepted as a woman is more important.  what is the point of  passing as a woman if you are not accepted as one?

Sigh.

I agree now. I'd change my vote to Acceptance if I could. After all those emphatic posts... me doth protested too much. I hope God at least allows me this DoOver. Art thou listening Up There? I GET it already, K?

Why must Growing Up take soooooo long?

Kate

But your posts did make for great debate didn't they Kate,  We work with what we know and as we grow we sometimes see things differently, it has nothing to do with growing up, just growing.

Steph

I voted acceptance. Long ago I made the decision that I didn't wish to conform to other peoples standards of what woman (or man) should be. I am in between genders, and wish to simply pass as who I am and to be able to live safely.

zythyra

As someone with dressing desires but not in order to convince, passing does nothing for me.

Love is always best, and that's what acceptance gives you.

That is really tricky question however it would have to be complete passing.

Acceptance - Because beauty is more than skin deep. A sense of belonging, healing my lifelong isolation. I am in this not out of desire for a particular look, but simply to be who I really am and to belong to the human race as such.

Passing is desirable to avoid getting laughed at by a crowd of teenagers or assaulted by queerphobes or harassed in the ladies' room. But if there were universal acceptance, that would not be an issue anyway. We feel a need to pass because of fear of rejection if we don't pass. So acceptance is really the only thing that matters.

This is not just a theoretical position for me, but drawn from real life. I'm not the best passer, but I very easily blend into womanspace with all kinds of other women who accept me and my womanly vibes as I am. That's where I feel right at home, and this acceptance is the be-all and end-all for me. I do want the SRS, but while waiting for it to become feasible, all I really care about is acceptance by other women. Taking hormones helps me a lot to feel and express my womanliness. I dress and makeup to pass the best I can, because that too helps with blending. But the core value is blending and acceptance. Passing is nice, but not essential as long as I'm in supportive company.

In fact, being a bit visibly trans might even be seen as a plus in the right context, because the most progressive people nowadays are eager to demonstrate their trans-acceptance. We're the progressive flavor of the month these days. Not that I like being "othered," even in a positive way, but they mean well, bless their hearts.

Quote from: Kate on June 26, 2006, 05:51:47 PMIt's curious that if someone refers to me as being female, it Rings True, sounds right, makes me smile and feels right. But if someone refers to me as a woman, I tend to cringe a bit, it sounds... presumptuous, off-base, inaccurate. I can easily say I want to be female without any doubts. I hesitate to say I want to be a woman, as I really don't aspire to it. It's a secondary issue.

I don't know what any of that means though, lol...

That's funny, I've always heard it the other way around. To me, male and female refer to physical sex. This is relevant at the doctor's, for example: trans or no trans, I have a basically male physiology to be cared for, which sometimes makes a difference medically. Whereas man and woman refer to gender.

Thus I strongly identify as WOMAN while I'm not so sure about claiming "female." Except that I speak of my female brain, in terms of physiology. In my humble opinion, brain sex is the best of all possible explanations for transsexualism, and my brain has always functioned in a distinctly female way.

Quote from: Katia on January 28, 2007, 10:50:17 PM

Quote from: Kimberly on January 22, 2006, 08:07:07 PM

Quote from: Leigh on January 21, 2006, 02:25:18 PM
What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter

In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread:  Passing or Acceptance?

Leigh

To me passing is more imprtant than being accepted. Anyone can accept me for what I am, but if I don't try 200% for passing then what are they really accepting?

Gina  :icon_confused:

Total Passing, unquestionably.

I have lived in isolation, without social acceptance and very independently for most of my life.

If I must do it again I will, but total passing is very important.

I just wish I didn't have to live in such a shallow-mentality world that makes us feel passing is so all-fired imperative.

I go over and over the arguments where -- like the famous baseball manager said -- "Winning isn't the most important thing. It's the ONLY thing" -- trans ladies who I respect are saying in effect passing isn't the most important thing, it's the ONLY thing... and I do see what they mean... and I'm afraid to find their arguments persuasive, I'm afraid of starting to feel that way... then I look back over my previous answer, and I still believe what I said above, why I chose acceptance.

Tricky poll.  People accept me as a woman because I pass.  If I didn't pass, people could still accept me as a transgendered person or a human being but not as a woman or female.

Quote from: Jeannette on July 12, 2007, 10:53:18 PM
Tricky poll.  People accept me as a woman because I pass.  If I didn't pass, people could still accept me as a transgendered person or a human being but not as a woman or female.

That's exactly what I mean, I don't want to turn into someone who perceives life in that way, and am afraid if I keep reading discussions about passing here I might start to agree with this. And I fear becoming like this.

Edit:
The more I think over and over this, the more I don't believe it. Never did. Still don't. No offense or disrespect intended toward those who see differently, but for me to believe this point of view would mean tearing down and radically reconstructing my whole understanding of life. I guess that's why I fear it. I felt more inner security the original way and don't want to lose that. But am I just deluding myself? What is real, anyway? How sure can any of us be that we can tell what is real apart from what is unreal? Are our lives built upon anything more substantial than ontological quicksand?

Quote from: Jeannette on July 12, 2007, 10:53:18 PM
Tricky poll. People accept me as a woman because I pass.  If I didn't pass, people could still accept me as a transgendered person or a human being but not as a woman or female.

That was partially why I answered in the way that I did.

Given that most of my so-called family and friends have refused to accept me and that I will need to re-create a new social structure, acceptance is.....irrelevant.

And yes, there is most definitely emotion behind that statement.

I suppose that the recent unexpected instances where I was completely 'En Femme' in public and had no trouble in passing is also driving the choice which I have made here......that tremendous feeling of profound comfort and tranquility of mind which I felt, the JOY which I felt, makes any rejection by the aforementioned others a total non-issue for me.

QuoteTricky poll.  People accept me as a woman because I pass.  If I didn't pass, people could still accept me as a transgendered person or a human being but not as a woman or female.

Says who?

I think you people all need to get out more, or at least expand your circle of possible friends & acquaintances before you draw these conclusions. Why the assumption that all people are incapable of looking past your birth status to accept you as an equal? I know that some people feel that way, but not all people feel that way. You are perennating your own stereotype with that assumption and further tying sexual characteristics to gender identity.

Quote from: Thundra on July 12, 2007, 11:49:33 PM
Why the assumption that all people are incapable of looking past your birth status to accept you as an equal?

The projections of internalized fears and insecurities from a lifetime of trauma onto a populace that is often much better at seeing our true selves than we are.

~Kate~

Because I have been full time for three years now, and know I don't pass all the time, in fact up close I am sure I never pass, but that has not prevented me from being accepted. I have found that once people know me on a personal basis, passing becomes a non issue.

It's kind of an interesting question because the entire premise of passing 100% is to gain acceptance from those who might withhold such acceptance knowing the truth about us. The author of the thread throws a wrench in it by setting up the precondition that passing means not being accepted, exactly the opposite of what one would expect from passing. The the author goes on to say what if not passing meant one would be accepted, which of course addresses our greatest fear about not passing. That we will not be accepted. This again is counterintuitive.

Being not passable and accepted, I can say it's pretty nice. But having said that, it doesn't mean I would not want to be more passable. I want to be more passable because I want to look like a woman. Because that is how I feel inside. It has nothing to do with with being accepted. I know that real acceptance comes from how people feel about me personally, not any prejudices they might have or bigotry. Anyone that is so superficial that they would reject me out of hand simply because I am not a natal female, is not really the kind of person I am looking to be accepted by anyway.

In the end, we all have it in our power to be accepted, no matter if we pass or not. It really starts with self acceptance. In this regard, I recognize that there are many that must pass to attain self acceptance. So in a way, they need to pass to be accepted, not because of society, but because of how they feel about themselves. I do not possess this need. Once I got ok with myself, it just stopped being important what others thought about it. I doubted that anyone would approve if they were given control over it. No one was going to tell me to transition because it was the best thing for me, had I given them the power to decide for me. I was going to have to act in my own best interest, regardless of what others thought.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Thank you so much for saying that so well, Elizabeth, it helps a lot!

Elizabeth, I really enjoyed reading your post. I found it to be very touching and it does make a lot of sense as well.

Gina  :icon_dance: