Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Which science related arguments do you use when you're talking to conservatives or skeptical people when you discuss the transgender/transsexual related things? I really wants some good science related arguments. I've discovered it's both religious and non-religious people that says being transgender is a mental illness; that we're crazy and all that stuffs. I doesn't believe their opinions is true, but I've not so much experiences about science either. Some of them also says the science don't support it. Many people considering being transgender is a mental illness and compares it to people who wants to amputee their limbs. (I doesn't have any opinions about BIID and is neutral in that debate. I just doesn't want it to be compared to it, because it's two very difference things.) But there are also many people (both transgender and cis people) who support us and doesn't think it's a mental illness. Do we have evidence it's not a illness? I thinks we have, but I'm not 100% sure. Therefor I asks you for arguments and advice.

Alas, the country I'm in has become incredibly polarized.  Trying to make an argument based on science won't work with our conservative folks, as 'science has a well-known liberal bias'.  Facts are also considered to be biased.  Seriously.  A comedian coined a word several years ago, "truthiness" to refer to what one's "gut feeling" implies is correct, or is at least consistent with one's ideology.

Truthiness is considered to be preferable to mere facts.

Given this state, it is incredibly hard to engage in actual reasoned debate with our local flavor of 'conservative'.  I don't bother any more.

Skeptical but open-minded people, while rare, can be engaged in rational discussion.  I generally will discuss this in terms of prenatal environment, how gender development actually works, and use several images I have on my smartphone that illustrate differences in the sex-differentiated structures in the brain, such as the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in cismen, ciswomen, and transwoman.

When people are convinced one is born either male or female and there is no middle ground, I can always cite the scientific proof of those born physically intersex. Or those with unusual XX/XY chromosome configurations. Plenty of evidence documented and photographic exists of the fact that nature doesn't always churn out one or the other mode of human being perfectly, and if the person is born with both male and female genitalia, or internal organs, then naturally they can probably have conflicted thoughts and feelings about gender. I'd ask them if they were the doctor delivering the birth of an intersex baby, what they would pick for the gender if the person had both penile and vaginal tissues. How would they decide between one or the other when what you see might be halfway between? It's not an answerable question in terms black and white. And then I'd ask them, if they chose a given gender for that child, raised them as that gender, would they be at all surprised if the child felt they didn't fit into one mold or the other? And when they entered puberty they possibly felt even more confused or dysphoric?

Then it's just a case of expanding this idea to cover the fact that hormones determine our development in the brain, that there are brain differences that are scientifically observable, and that just because someone has the outward appearance of a gender, does not automatically mean their brains are in sync with it.

It's generally a complete waste of time.  Most of them live in an alternate reality.

For example, I was stating to a group of conservatives the other day that LGBT are discriminated against in jobs, housing, etc.  They simply deny that this is in any way happening in America.

I agree, not worth the time. Logic sounds like Charlie Brown's parents when their mind is made up. "waah, waah waah waah)

I do, however, feel that those that protest the most are probably in the closet and don't want to admit it.

My boss is totally anti anything to do with LGBT, but I have caught him checking out one of the guys here a number of occasions. To be fair the guy he's checking out is painfully hot though.

No point in using science, because they've already decided that science is wrong.  "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."  (variously attributed to George Carlin or Mark Twain)

Science they disagree with is always part of the secret liberal plot to undermine the family, destroy Christianity, and promote communism.  How can you possibly reason with that?

I was born in the middle of the 20th century. At the time many woman estimated to be 10 million were prescribed DES aka Diethylstilbestrol a synthetic female hormone prescribed to pregnant women to prevent miscarriages. If the DES is introduced at the enc in the first trimester around week 10 the body and genitalia have already been formed. Unfortunately the des female hormones often 3000 to 4000 times more than is necessary,overtake the testosterone that formed the gonads and the brain develops female. Approximately there are 1.5 million DES Sons and an equal number of DES Daughters. The girls got cancer the boys get gender confusion and dysphoria. I have all the symptoms from a small penis to my testis didn't drop until I was a senior in high school. I also have a deformed heart valve, congestive Heart Failure, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, edema, Stroke (TIA) and diabetes. I felt different from a very early age, and chose to play with the girls until about the fourth grade when I learned to play baseball. At seven I had my first cross dressing experience. I don't know if I asked or Mom just wanted to but I ended up in my sisters costumes. At twelve I would sleep in my sisters leotard and fishnets. At seventeen I would babysit my sisters kids. Put them to sleep. Then slip away to my sisters bedroom to put on her clothes and makeup. It's taken me 64 years to be honest with myself and my therapist In our third meeting together she asked if I want to take hormones. I did not do the asking. I am on the cusp of finally realizing my true self.

The most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5, issued in 2013) no longer classifies transgender identity as a mental disorder.  It is published by the American Psychiatric Association.  So if the professional psychiatric community does not classify us as having a mental illness, who are critics to argue against that?  I think that should be enough grounds to dismiss any claims that we are mentally ill.

There is also a growing body of evidence that suggests that the cause of transgender identity is due to biological differences in the brain.  There's this article from Scientific American (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/?wt.mc=SA_Facebook-Share) published earlier this year that supports that theory.  Scientific American "is an American popular science magazine. Many famous scientists, including Albert Einstein, have contributed articles in the past 170 years. It is the oldest continuously published monthly magazine in the United States."

There's also this fairly recent article (http://www.ozy.com/pov/check-the-science-being-trans-is-not-a-choice/69726) written by Leslie P Henderson, just 2 months ago.  The author is a professor of neurobiology at Dartmouth's School of Medicine, a top Ivy League school.  Her PhD is from Stanford.  If one of the top neurobiologists in her field says that there's a biological basis for transgender brains, then that's not something that critics can easily dismiss.

There are of course a plethora of scientific articles and studies out there, but these are just a few.  Sadly, some people who are intent on believing what they think to be true will continue to believe it, despite scientific evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: DawnOday on July 27, 2016, 05:25:35 PM
I have all the symptoms from a small penis to my testis didn't drop until I was a senior in high school. I also have a deformed heart valve, congestive Heart Failure, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, edema, Stroke (TIA) and diabetes.

Most of those health problems you describe are caused by having chronically low sex hormone levels, which seems to be a very common problem amongst genetic males who were exposed to DES. It doesn't seem to matter too much while you're young if you have low sex hormone levels, but as you get older, more and more health problems start to emerge. That's been my experience anyway. I know mainly about the effects of androgen deprivation, which include osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease and diabetes as well as losing all your vitality and zest for life. However, among the people I know who are on estradiol HRT, too low an estradiol level has similar effects. So if you're still experiencing symptoms of metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disaease and diabetes even after being placed on estradiol HRT, it's a good bet that your doctor has you on too low a dose.

Unfortunately, doctors underdosing their trans patients is a very common problem. Instead of bioidentical estradiol (which they couldn't patent), the pharmaceutical industry has long promoted synthetic estrogens for women's HRT, and the result has been a disaster. The three main ones they promoted (DES, premarin and ethinylestradiol) all turned out to be highly toxic, and it's led to estrogens gaining an undeserved reputation for being dangerous (when actually it's synthetic hormones that are dangerous).

With transgender HRT, what's even worse is that doctors then try to compensate for the inadequate amounts of estradiol they're prescribing by administering antiandrogens, which are also synthetic hormones and have adverse side effects of their own (particularly when used long term). This is why it's a good idea to educate yourself about what constitutes good and bad HRT, and don't assume that your doctor knows what they're doing. Most of them don't!

Anyway, to return to what the OP was asking, I put together this answer last year about the cause of ->-bleeped-<-.

https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Basically, it's the result of your hormone levels being disrupted during the later stages of your prenatal development, by which time your genital development has already finished and it's just your brain development that is still ongoing. Not many people appreciate that it's hormones, not the X and Y chromosomes, that determine whether you develop as male or female, and if your hormones are disrupted during the prenatal period, one of the things that can go wrong is that you end up with a brain that's intersexed or even completely the wrong sex for your body.

Quote from: HughE on July 29, 2016, 05:05:12 AM
Most of those health problems you describe are caused by having chronically low sex hormone levels, which seems to be a very common problem amongst genetic males who were exposed to DES. It doesn't seem to matter too much while you're young if you have low sex hormone levels, but as you get older, more and more health problems start to emerge. That's been my experience anyway. I know mainly about the effects of androgen deprivation, which include osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease and diabetes as well as losing all your vitality and zest for life. However, among the people I know who are on estradiol HRT, too low an estradiol level has similar effects. So if you're still experiencing symptoms of metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disaease and diabetes even after being placed on estradiol HRT, it's a good bet that your doctor has you on too low a dose.

Unfortunately, doctors underdosing their trans patients is a very common problem. Instead of bioidentical estradiol (which they couldn't patent), the pharmaceutical industry has long promoted synthetic estrogens for women's HRT, and the result has been a disaster. The three main ones they promoted (DES, premarin and ethinylestradiol) all turned out to be highly toxic, and it's led to estrogens gaining an undeserved reputation for being dangerous (when actually it's synthetic hormones that are dangerous).

With transgender HRT, what's even worse is that doctors then try to compensate for the inadequate amounts of estradiol they're prescribing by administering antiandrogens, which are also synthetic hormones and have adverse side effects of their own (particularly when used long term). This is why it's a good idea to educate yourself about what constitutes good and bad HRT, and don't assume that your doctor knows what they're doing. Most of them don't!

Anyway, to return to what the OP was asking, I put together this answer last year about the cause of ->-bleeped-<-.

https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Basically, it's the result of your hormone levels being disrupted during the later stages of your prenatal development, by which time your genital development has already finished and it's just your brain development that is still ongoing. Not many people appreciate that it's hormones, not the X and Y chromosomes, that determine whether you develop as male or female, and if your hormones are disrupted during the prenatal period, one of the things that can go wrong is that you end up with a brain that's intersexed or even completely the wrong sex for your body.

So how can you receive safe HRT then? Many transgender people need HRT and other medical treatment to ease their dysphoria. I thought HRT could be safe, since so many undergo these kind of treatment without getting sick.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on July 29, 2016, 05:16:31 AM
So how can you receive safe HRT then? Many transgender people need HRT and other medical treatment to ease their dysphoria. I thought HRT could be safe, since so many undergo these kind of treatment without getting sick.

You get the right HRT instead of the wrong ones and you get you blood levels monitored to make sure nothing bad is happening, and your hormone levels are correct. The wrong HRT is risky, you'll probably be ok, but maybe not and why take that risk when there's better alternatives.

I want to add one thing to what Hugh said.  First though, he is really educated about all of this and knows what he is talking about.  But I always feel a little left out when the DES discussion comes up because while I was DES exposed, with certainty, my personal case always seems to be an anomaly.  Maybe others have the same experience. 

My mother used DES and I have known I was trans since I was a kid.  However, my testosterone was high.  Even as a 55 year old it was in the far upper regions of "normal".  Even my body was generally normal, I think, except that it really didn't reflect what you might expect with such high testosterone.  My body hair was always generally sparse, I had zero hair loss, my face never developed really strong masculine features, and my body, while generally in decent shape, would not develop a heavily muscled look no matter how hard I tried.  The exception  was that  my legs were always really strong and pretty big. 

I'm not entirely certain what my point is LOL, except that DES seems to often have a specific effect of feminizing a prenatal mind while at the same time having a variety of mixed and different effects on the physical body.  It leaves me feeling like a chimera.

It also makes it very difficult to explain any of this to conservatives, or even to most people in general.  They just seem to lack the mental flexibility to grasp concepts that they cannot see.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on July 29, 2016, 05:16:31 AM
So how can you receive safe HRT then? Many transgender people need HRT and other medical treatment to ease their dysphoria. I thought HRT could be safe, since so many undergo these kind of treatment without getting sick.

The estrogens being administered these days are safer. I don't know about bio-identical but those seem like a further positive step. The biggest single difference as I understand it is that 15 years ago I think the main source was taken from the urine of pregnancy horses (conjugated estrogens, aka preparing).

Older trans women are more often prescribed transdermal, injected estradiol valerate or sublingual, all of which are safer for the liver and complications due to first pass metabolism of oral administration of tablets.

Going by my endocrinologist, sublingual may not even be available in the US and she had never heard of it when I brought it up as a possibility. Hence I'm on injected estradiol and quite happy to find for me that alone suppressed testosterone to the low end of cis female range.

Personally I think this should be standard for most ages, sure first pass effect of oral estradiol has minimal effects on younger people, that isn't, however minimal isn't none and the likelihood that it avoids the need for an AA seems compelling to my mind.

To the OP

There aren't a lot of conservatives in my part of the world and so I simply don't run across the question. Not that I don't encounter occasional ignorance on the subject and often unwarranted assumptions, however nearly all the people I interact with are intelligent and open-minded enough to engage in rational discussion.

I find it ironic that the people who use science to argue against trans people are also the people who trash the science on other issues, like climate change.  As long as it fits their agenda.

I usually start with reminding them that the existence of intersex people disproves their idea that people are either men or women and nothing else.  I had one guy deny that intersex people exist.  There's no hope there.


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They always say that since intersex are few they don't count.  I never quite could understand that logic since trans are few also.

Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 09:36:51 AM
They always say that since intersex are few they don't count.  I never quite could understand that logic since trans are few also.

Also gay people are a minority

Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 09:36:51 AM
They always say that since intersex are few they don't count.  I never quite could understand that logic since trans are few also.

Or they say that being intersex is not a choice, since intersex people are born different physically.  They claim that transgender people like me are giving in to our desires.  That it's a decision we are making to choose to be transgender.

They ignore the fact that we are different mentally.  That our brains are what causes us to be trans.  It is really difficult for people to believe what they cannot see.

I always preface any such discussion with, "In my case..."

Starting with a fertilized egg, cells split until a basic human form is made. Within a few weeks, the XX or XY genes are moving the pre-gonad structures (testes and ovaries, they are the same at this point) to their final locations. Also, as part of the basic form, the genitals are formed. Both male and females share these basic parts even as adults--the penis and clitoris are essentially the same organ, except for size and function. The scrotum in the male is the labia in the female; this is also why men have nipples. *listener often giggles at this point*

So all that happens in the first month, but the brain doesn't really get into detail work until about the fourth month. This is also when the baby's gonads start producing enough hormones to overcome the mothers' hormones, which allows the brain to develop connections so it can use testosterone or estrogen. This event--hormones affecting the baby's brain--is a pretty short time, maybe 2-3 weeks. *listener usually nods about this time, understanding the development process*

Now imagine what would happen to a male baby who, during this time, has something happen which reduces the amount of testosterone...like if the mother was given a medication which, in males, suppresses testicular function. The baby (with a male body) develops a brain which is saturated with estrogen.

The brain becomes hard-wired to "be" female, in spite of male genitalia. *this is when most listeners have an "a-ha!" moment*

Then I answer any specific auestions...I've had pretty good results with this.

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on July 29, 2016, 12:40:24 PM
Or they say that being intersex is not a choice, since intersex people are born different physically.  They claim that transgender people like me are giving in to our desires.  That it's a decision we are making to choose to be transgender.

They ignore the fact that we are different mentally.  That our brains are what causes us to be trans.  It is really difficult for people to believe what they cannot see.

I recently had this discussion with a guy at work.  I even got him to agree that the brains are different.  His response was that they are then abnormal and they need to act normal like everyone else. 

Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 02:18:13 PM
I recently had this discussion with a guy at work.  I even got him to agree that the brains are different.  His response was that they are then abnormal and they need to act normal like everyone else.

How very 1950's of him to say that!

That's one of the reasons people were "warehoused" in asylums back in the day...if you weren't "normal", you were simply sent away so you wouldn't disturb the neighbors, nor could they harm you (you know, because YOU were disturbing THEM).

I was just browsing TED Talks and watched one that I think gives some insights into what's going on.  I found it pretty interesting.
http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind

Quote from: Deborah on July 29, 2016, 02:18:13 PM
I recently had this discussion with a guy at work.  I even got him to agree that the brains are different.  His response was that they are then abnormal and they need to act normal like everyone else.

I've heard the same argument applied to other groups that are a small part of the population, from the deaf, those with various disabilities, to small immigrant populations.

And then there's the definition of 'normal'.  Many of the Native American tribes gave 'two-spirit people' a special place in their culture, as did some Polynesian cultures, among many others. They found these folks and their difference to have a cultural value.  The idea that anyone not 'normal' or meeting a cultural definition of average must hide their differences is an odd twist of Western culture, and it's European theocratic roots.

I kind of enjoy baiting that guy  when I get bored which I know is kind of mean.  But I keep it lighthearted so we remain on good terms. 

He took the whole "normal" thing to another level when he got going on immigration.  He believes it is bad because it dilutes the numbers of the dominant white race.  I tried pointing out to him that he is half Korean himself, as are my children.  But that flew right over his head. 

Another guy told me that Hillary needed to be in jail.  When I pointed out she had been investigated by the FBI and cleared, his response was that the investigator had been coerced with death threats.  When I asked for evidence he said there didn't need to be any evidence because it just was.

Most of these guys are even college educated but the indoctrination in that party is extremely strong and extremely effective.

So the lesson is that's trying to change their minds on any of these issues is a losing proposition.  There is no room for either logic or science.  But arguing with them does provide a pretty high entertainment value as long as it remains friendly and personal attacks are strictly avoided.

I feel like an OSS agent behind enemy lines. LOL.

I don't bother trying to explain or justify myself for being transgender to people like that. It's not worth it as they usually won't listen to reason, science or feel empathy and I'm not going to bang my head against a bigoted wall when I have better things to do with my life.

I'm with Grace on that except that I will mention my being intersex and what was done to me, but other than that I will drop it because even with that knowledge it is doubtful that they will listen to what I said. Hugs
Mariah

I'm think some TS people have feminized brains (mtf) and other masculinised brains (FTM) but studies like this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21467211 make me limit the claim to "some". That's why I don't use the brain argument, and instead go for the fact that it's objectifying to reduce one's identity to genitals or chromosomes. Because people who would call me a man, wouldn't limit themselves to that, but would rather add on a host of preconceptions, stereotypes, and in the case of radical feminists, privileges and antagonism.

Quote from: Ms Grace on July 30, 2016, 04:54:33 PM
I don't bother trying to explain or justify myself for being transgender to people like that. It's not worth it as they usually won't listen to reason, science or feel empathy and I'm not going to bang my head against a bigoted wall when I have better things to do with my life.

This. Every now and then I get sucked into a debate and it just upsets me when they won't listen to reason.
If I was going to use science, I would go with brain scan research.

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Trying to use "Science" is about about as fruitless as trying to point out to the anti Gay marriage crowd that marriage is and has been a legal construct for 300-400 years now defining rights of the spouse. Religion is.... inconsequential. If a "Civil Union" was championed through the hallowed halls of some state state as being totally identical to "marriage" it would stand no chance.

Better yet... A bill to define marriage as a "civil union" with all the rights they have.

I live in "Realville" and have dealt with zealots of one sort or another about all my life. I learned the very valuable lesson that no matter what you say you cannot change their minds... Sorry, you can, to hate you.  Gay, trans, or other. Disagree with them and you instantly become "One of THOSE". A pariah. Even perhaps the exact thing they hate in sheep's clothing

Just the other day a coworker got on his high horse about "Those gays being able to get married" and "Killing religion". I went into my Social Justice Warrior mode and pointed out like I did above the reality of the world we live in. A world where a 30 year life partner can have no right whatsoever, so called civil union or not.

I'm sure when he turned away he had a lot to say he dared not to or his head was smoking. I hope his respect for my technical abilities will hopefully open his eyes some.

I think we need to recognize that not all, or even most conservatives are bigots.

Yes, some are (just like some liberals are bigoted), but most honestly believe they have justifiable morals, and they do listen to reason.

Don't just dismiss someone because of your perception of their narrow-mindedness...sometimes people react emotionally to a new idea, but over time most will come around. Talking with venom just makes the process take longer.

imho

I try not to argue with people who see me as less than. If they have a real/legitimate question that isn't invasive, I answer what I can. Otherwise I simply avoid politics and remain cordial. Honestly, my friends actually fight and argue more for my sake than I do, I typically just walk away.

Besides, logic and facts were invented by us liberals to confuse and make conservatives feel silly. A lot of them have no time for our shenanigans.

     Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on August 03, 2016, 01:20:13 AM
I try not to argue with people who see me as less than. If they have a real/legitimate question that isn't invasive, I answer what I can. Otherwise I simply avoid politics and remain cordial. Honestly, my friends actually fight and argue more for my sake than I do, I typically just walk away.

Besides, logic and facts were invented by us liberals to confuse and make conservatives feel silly. A lot of them have no time for our shenanigans.

     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've had many arguments with both liberals and conservatives, and in my experience both "sides" (hmm...another binary... I wonder if there's a spectrum with opinions as with gender..?  ;) ) have their particular sacred cows in which logic and facts do not apply.

Not all of "us" here are liberal.

Please, I ask again, do not use broad brush statements against an entire part of society. It is irritating.

I have found that reason and data matters little to many. There position is an emotional one and rooted somewhat in the very nature of social conservatism.

My best logical thing to point out is how united the medical community is on this and how modern healthcare has risen to help us all. (then they love to pull out that one doctor at Johns Hopkins with the contrary opinion)

For the emotional side, i just try for them to get and know me as a person, friend etc. That in and of itself will eventually cover most of the bigotry.

Quote from: HughE on July 29, 2016, 05:05:12 AM
Most of those health problems you describe are caused by having chronically low sex hormone levels, which seems to be a very common problem amongst genetic males who were exposed to DES. It doesn't seem to matter too much while you're young if you have low sex hormone levels, but as you get older, more and more health problems start to emerge. That's been my experience anyway. I know mainly about the effects of androgen deprivation, which include osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease and diabetes as well as losing all your vitality and zest for life. However, among the people I know who are on estradiol HRT, too low an estradiol level has similar effects. So if you're still experiencing symptoms of metabolic syndrome, cardiovascular disaease and diabetes even after being placed on estradiol HRT, it's a good bet that your doctor has you on too low a dose.

Unfortunately, doctors underdosing their trans patients is a very common problem. Instead of bioidentical estradiol (which they couldn't patent), the pharmaceutical industry has long promoted synthetic estrogens for women's HRT, and the result has been a disaster. The three main ones they promoted (DES, premarin and ethinylestradiol) all turned out to be highly toxic, and it's led to estrogens gaining an undeserved reputation for being dangerous (when actually it's synthetic hormones that are dangerous).

With transgender HRT, what's even worse is that doctors then try to compensate for the inadequate amounts of estradiol they're prescribing by administering antiandrogens, which are also synthetic hormones and have adverse side effects of their own (particularly when used long term). This is why it's a good idea to educate yourself about what constitutes good and bad HRT, and don't assume that your doctor knows what they're doing. Most of them don't!

Anyway, to return to what the OP was asking, I put together this answer last year about the cause of ->-bleeped-<-.

https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-person-to-be-transgender/answer/Hugh-Easton-1

Basically, it's the result of your hormone levels being disrupted during the later stages of your prenatal development, by which time your genital development has already finished and it's just your brain development that is still ongoing. Not many people appreciate that it's hormones, not the X and Y chromosomes, that determine whether you develop as male or female, and if your hormones are disrupted during the prenatal period, one of the things that can go wrong is that you end up with a brain that's intersexed or even completely the wrong sex for your body.

Hugh  Thanks so much. Your information is alway clear concise and most useful. You really bring the situation into clear focus.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 03, 2016, 09:56:51 AM
I've had many arguments with both liberals and conservatives, and in my experience both "sides" (hmm...another binary... I wonder if there's a spectrum with opinions as with gender..?  ;) ) have their particular sacred cows in which logic and facts do not apply.

Not all of "us" here are liberal.

Please, I ask again, do not use broad brush statements against an entire part of society. It is irritating.

The question specifically said, what arguments do you use with conservatives, not other conservatives, so... that's why I poked fun at logic and facts. I include myself in the group of liberal people, so I can refer to us (liberals) and some of our (liberal) views without meaning that all trans people are liberal. The question itself was using the broad brush.

In reality, the second thing I said is what I do. I hate arguing with people and rarely do, although I don't mind clarifying if I think someone misunderstood me (as in this case). So, I don't use any arguments with people to explain or defend my trans-ness. They tell me everything I need to know about them when they react however.


     Hugs,
- Katie
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The argument I like to use is this one: You trust science when you are in the ER with a broken leg. Or when you need treatment for a disease. Or when you watch tv, turn your lights on, drive your car, use a computer, pump gas, listen to a piece of recorded music. But somehow you don't trust science in these areas? Do you realize that you are being selective and inconsistent?

And then I explain the scientific method to them and how it works. Point them to the data sets that confirm that that being transgender is not a mental illness. And ask them how they can make a conclusion based on research they have not yet conducted?

It is useful to understand that liberals and conservatives as groups base their sense of right and wrong on different ethical values.  So quite apart from facts, there are some things that will never be agreed on.  See this article with its attached chart.  http://www.ethicsdefined.org/the-problem-with-morality/conservatives-vs-liberals/
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff341%2Fdebbie7571%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F32957654-C541-4D8F-81A3-3BDABF8C234F_zpslwd6wrin.png&hash=8246b2fe3b6679500a3a96e90b82bfde70a0a517) (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/debbie7571/media/Mobile%20Uploads/32957654-C541-4D8F-81A3-3BDABF8C234F_zpslwd6wrin.png.html)
For a liberal, treating people fairly and not causing harm are very important.  For a conservative, following authority, group loyalty, and purity, however they define that, are all more important than fairness. 

For controversial issues we may as well be separate species inhabiting different universes because agreement will be nearly impossible.

From  what I've seen Conservatives are more likely to be rooted in a certain type of religious world view that argues we are what God mad us.  "God doesn't make mistakes."   I've seen few Conservative groups welcoming of lgbt.   They don't accept lgbt people and indeed don't even want us to go to the bathroom on the bizarre assumption that we are all rapists or perverts.  There are no gray areas in this world view and it is senseless to argue with these people.   

I usually would have just passed over this, but I don't like being generalized. And since I'm in the super minority, I feel like I need to add my thoughts. As a right leaning libertarian, transgender person whom is also religious, I kind of take offense being lumped in with bigots. With the exception of one of my friends all the rest are either conservatives or right leaning libertarians, some are religious, one is even a pagan. The transgender topic has come up before and none of them care, they don't care what we do to our bodies, they don't care what bathroom we use etc, etc. Some of them even supported gay marriage. I also believe in dinosaurs and evolution, I also believe the big bang theory might be true, but that someone had to make it happen. So please in the future don't lump us all in with bigots.

In my experience - notwithstanding the conservative/religious members of Susan's - the conservative and religious people I know and have met in person do tend to be irrational bigots when it comes to the subject of transgender people. So I don't argue with them. They aren't interested in what doesn't fit their world view, and I'm not going to justify my existence or my experiences to someone whose opinion matters nothing at all to me.

The problem I see is in the topic

Science
Argument
Conservative

In most cases does not compute... ???

I have a degree in science myself and would have loved to go into gastro physics but alas.

On that chart, libertarians whether left or right leaning, would be in the middle, rather than the right of the x axis.  So their ethics are much more closely aligned with liberals than they are with conservatives.

The chart isn't my opinion anyway.  It's from the study that is discussed in the linked article.  In my experience, it is pretty accurate in describing population means.  Obviously, within the populations there will be individual outliers.

Personally, I am more libertarian than liberal myself.  I call myself a liberal though because I don't think supporting libertarian candidates serves any purpose in opposing the party whose values I believe are antithetical to either human decency,  common sense, or the values upon which this country was founded.

Quote from: Obfuskatie on August 03, 2016, 01:20:13 AM
I try not to argue with people who see me as less than. If they have a real/legitimate question that isn't invasive, I answer what I can. Otherwise I simply avoid politics and remain cordial. Honestly, my friends actually fight and argue more for my sake than I do, I typically just walk away.

Besides, logic and facts were invented by us liberals to confuse and make conservatives feel silly. A lot of them have no time for our shenanigans.

     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's so funny! My friends do the same if someone tries to say something rude or hateful. I've given up explaining everything to my immediate family they just will never understand. I buried that rock a long long time ago and moved on. I still will try and explain to people who want to know because to me it's still learning even though they are probably not caring one way or the other. I think this will be less of an issue hopefully in the next decade for us. I still believe we are the last to fully get rights like everyone else in this world. Although from the other side they feel the same way like talking to a brick wall. I always wonder how the founding fathers would view us because men wore makeup and wigs back in the day and I know there had to have been some that were able to pass back then.

There are a number of issues with this thread that have me cycling through anger, frustration and resignation.

First, by using the terminology conservatives we are allowing many of the respondents to engage in othering and depersonalization.  This allows them to be spoken of as if they were a mindless mob of pitchfork weilding medieval peasants.

It also allows you to speak of them in exactly the manner that you get upset over when spoken about.  Conservatives are individuals with their own particular nuance.  Many are uninformed, many are religious, many may not agree with the science.

It was put forth that most conservatives won't understand or will argue against science and facts, or won't use logic, falling back on their own cognitive biases.  This same statement could be said of most of humanity, regardless of grouping.  Most of the indivual who don't/won't listen are rooted in their own subjective experience and feelings.  Their feelings are no less valid than your own, whether or not it aligns with the science or logic.  By automatically discarding them as invalid you remove the potential for further dialogue.  This is indicative of some of the current problems in America.  We don't treat people with equal respect and seek to achieve a solution.  Instead we bicker and demarcate people into artificial binaries.

This thread has very little that is a constructive answer to the original question.

I am not here to offend others, but after reading so much of this over the past few days, most of you should be ashamed and realize you are being every bit as guilty as those you decry.  I had hoped for a while this thread would be locked, but alas no luck.

It must be nice living in a State where you don't have to hear people at work discussing how they will shoot a trans woman if they ever see one in a bathroom. 

I'm happy that there are such places.

Well said Amber. Deborah, I have driven over half the country very recently, to celebrate the start of my hrt. my son and myself went on a vacation, we stopped in some pretty redneck places, in those places I saw everything from trans women, trans men, guys holding hands etc, and no one cared. In fact one of the things that inspired me to transition was the morning I saw a old man that looked like santa clause riding a bike in a bikini and none gave him a second look. But that is one of the reasons I'm a conservative,  I don't care what people say to me, but if someone lays a hand upon me, well I got something in my pocket for that ;)

Well you don't have to be a conservative to be in favor of self defense or to own guns.  I have a whole cabinet full of those.  On the other hand, you don't have to look far or hard to see that it is exclusively conservatives that are passing laws to deny LGBT rights or to protect themselves when they deny LBGTs service.  So I guess it's nice that you saw an old man in a bikini.  It would be nicer if this trans woman wasn't denied care in a hospital on religious objections.  http://insurancenewsnet.com/oarticle/affordable-care-act-rules-arrive-to-combat-health-care-discrimination-in-memphis

Okay, this was not a thread about self defense and gun ownership.  This is about which scientific evidence/arguments to use when dealing with conservatives.  Whether one identifies as liberal or conservative themselves is moot.

The major push back against LGBT rights by conservative politicians and groups is unfortunate and the likely reason for much of the invective espoused in this thread.  Dealing with those groups is not the point of the thread per se.  Those groups have a vested political interest in not accepting any argument counter to their own.

However, that does nothing to further the original intent of the discussion, as I see it, of what evidence is most effective to those who are conservative in their beliefs.

As I posted above, I have tried arguing with evidence before.  One guy even agreed with my medical arguments.  His response: then they are abnormal and need to act normal.

Another guy in my office I gave a very lengthy explanation, scientific and medical.  He listened and nodded his head politely as if he understood.  A month later he was discussing shooting trans women in the restrooms.

So, what is the point of even trying.  It's simply a waste of oxygen and brain cells.

n = 2.  Not a very compelling sample size.  I understand that is your experience and opinion.  I disagree with extrapolating and generalizing that to a population of approximately 1/3 of the registered voters.

You are failing to see the point I was making, this line argumentation is not constructive.  The vitriol in this thread would likely make anyone who was conservative, religious, or similar extremely frustrated and feel unwelcome.  Many are engaging in the same closed mindedness they decry conservatives of.  All based on subjective beliefs.

Many conservatives are compassionate everyday people who, while they may not agree with the science, don't wish to intentionally harm others and their rights.  Most are misinformed and ignorant of the nature of trans issues.  Even more are ignorant of how the laws disenfranchise our rights and the negative impacts thereof.  Someone has to do the work of educating those people.  It certainly is not the media.  They are not going to seek this knowledge independently, either.
So rather than allow this to devolve into a screw the ignorant thread, perhaps we can add value to the discussion as a very few other posters have done.

Not that my personal experience is relevant to the overall. Discussion, but yes I have and do deal with people who threaten to shoot transwomen entering the bathroom.  My neighbor  and her 18 year old daughter both said that to my face (I was in guy mode).

Amber already covered half of what I wanted to say, there are idiots on all sides. And I agree you cant argue with idiots, and it's usually the idiots that have the loudest voice, but calling someone a idiot because of their religious or political beliefs is the fasted way to make them disregard anything you have to say. I'm sorry you have to deal with people like that, but at the same time for every one person that thinks like that I'll show you 10 who don't.

Quote from: Jenny07 on August 06, 2016, 04:52:36 AM
The problem I see is in the topic

Science
Argument
Conservative

In most cases does not compute... ???

I have a degree in science myself and would have loved to go into gastro physics but alas.

Agreed. I find the original question pretty absurd and mildly offensive. For my sins, I eschewed a career in the sciences for IT. Ah, regret...  :D

seeing things from their point of view,
It's obvious why transitioning is considered to be a form of mental illness. because it's not within the established standard of human behavior/emotion.(based off of society and not reality )

or it's not a normal behavior/state of mind/ whatever you want to call it.

Logically speaking, there really is no correct way to act like a girl, nor is there a correct way to act like a boy. these were just roles established in a socially constructed reality. (society)

if I had to take a guess though, I would think that GD would be among the same category/line as depression.
Personally, I don't really care what they call it. this is just one of those subjects were you would just have to agree to disagree in the end.

it would be pointless to attempt to express the differences between reality and society
to someone who refuses to understand in the first place. 

I guess to them, actions would have to speak louder than an simple explanation.

I'm happy to explain things to people that are willing to listen.

I'm not happy explaining things to people that refute arguments with ideological statements not founded in reality.

A person's being conservative has little to do with this beyond a certain degree of correlation between some flavors of conservatism and a preference for ideology over science.

Is that better?

Quote from: Michelle_P on August 06, 2016, 08:55:16 PM
I'm happy to explain things to people that are willing to listen.

I'm not happy explaining things to people that refute arguments with ideological statements not founded in reality.

A person's being conservative has little to do with this beyond a certain degree of correlation between some flavors of conservatism and a preference for ideology over science.

Is that better?

I'll have to agree with this post. While I am definitely against today's more popular conservative values, I am much more interested in the individual's willingness to accept evidence than what their political leanings are. I have a roommate, for example, who only wants to listen to wacky pseudoscience instead of actual information from scientists. He hasn't caused me any trouble, which is why he's my roommate, but I am not about to attempt to throw science at him because of how worthless that attempt has proven to be in the past. This is a guy who mostly agrees with me politically, which is why I don't like to connect the two.

If someone who disagrees with me wants to fairly assess the evidence with me, then I am absolutely willing to have that conversation. The problem is that most people I know don't want to change their minds on anything once they have settled on an idea. The arguments that leads to often occurs with people we may disagree with, which is what makes that so difficult. This would be true for people I agreed with if there was an actual reason to argue with them.

Quote from: amberwaves on August 06, 2016, 05:55:19 PM

You are failing to see the point I was making, this line argumentation is not constructive.  The vitriol in this thread would likely make anyone who was conservative, religious, or similar extremely frustrated and feel unwelcome.  Many are engaging in the same closed mindedness they decry conservatives of.  All based on subjective beliefs.

I can only speak to my own experiences, from which, yes, I have drawn general conclusions that I now apply. That seems to me to be quite rational. I don't argue with people who are wilfully irrational. If someone else has found that to be a profitable exercise, or they get some kind of kick out of doing it, so be it. If they've managed to convince someone using evidence that transgender people aren't bringing about the end of the world, lurking in toilets waiting to attack people, controlling the weather somehow, etc. etc. then good for them. Oddly enough, those are all things I've yet to hear a 'liberal' spout. But hey, just my experience. 

Quote from: ChiGirl on July 29, 2016, 08:15:11 AM
I find it ironic that the people who use science to argue against trans people are also the people who trash the science on other issues, like climate change.  As long as it fits their agenda.

I usually start with reminding them that the existence of intersex people disproves their idea that people are either men or women and nothing else.  I had one guy deny that intersex people exist.  There's no hope there.


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Interesting read on global warming. I don't believe science on certain things and I also don't believe a conservitave as much as I don't believe a liberal/democrat.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11647-climate-myths-its-been-far-warmer-in-the-past-whats-the-big-deal/

Anytime someone says they're an "expert" I hold their opinions in much less value, doctors and scientists only give educated guesses. I will listen to someone's opinion all day, but at the end of the day it's up to my mind to decide what I want to believe. :) Either way I'm still for keeping our air clean, planting more trees, and using less gasoline powered vehicles. Personally I take the bus or ride my bicycle everywhere. But we all must remember not everyone is the same. I still hold certain conservitave views on politics as I'm very pro anglo-saxon capitalist as far as economy goes, but I have friends who are conservitave and don't hate on lgbt because they have compassion for everyone. My closest friends always tell me I am a minority within a minority who is a minority but the rarest unicorn that exists lol :)

Well, that Global Warming article you posted is something I agree with.  However, its conclusion will make conservatives' heads explode.

From the article:

"The important question is what is causing the current, rapid warming? We cannot dismiss it as natural variation just because the planet has been warmer at various times in the past. Many studies suggest it can only be explained by taking into account human activity.

Nor does the fact that it has been warmer in the past mean that future warming is nothing to worry about. The sea level has been tens of metres higher during past warm periods, enough to submerge most major cities around the world."

Quote from: JeNn_DeViLz on August 06, 2016, 10:49:09 AM

That's so funny! My friends do the same if someone tries to say something rude or hateful. I've given up explaining everything to my immediate family they just will never understand. I buried that rock a long long time ago and moved on. I still will try and explain to people who want to know because to me it's still learning even though they are probably not caring one way or the other. I think this will be less of an issue hopefully in the next decade for us. I still believe we are the last to fully get rights like everyone else in this world. Although from the other side they feel the same way like talking to a brick wall. I always wonder how the founding fathers would view us because men wore makeup and wigs back in the day and I know there had to have been some that were able to pass back then.

Homophobia wasn't a thing until about a century after the founding fathers died, so I doubt they'd perceive us as anything more unusual than Oscar Wilde if he lived during their time. Confirmed bachelors, fops and dandies weren't feared or derided, just dismissed. Also it was pretty common for men to have mancrushes then and even to admit they love their bestie.

Being trans was a lot harder then, but not impossible. Especially because men and women were mostly segregated from each other after childhood. The theatres only had male actors and needed an actor or two to play the female parts. And marriages were usually arranged by the families so the wives and husbands wouldn't always get angry at the other for their indiscretions and idiosyncrasies. To be trans then usually meant they had to disappear and start a new life, and probably wouldn't be able to marry without a family to arrange it, unless they became wealthy somehow (which was more likely during the gold rush). So for FtM, there are a few examples of women living as men, one in particular was a carriage-driver in the late 1800s. I don't know a lot of historical examples on the MtF side tho.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Obfuskatie on August 07, 2016, 04:05:46 PM
Homophobia wasn't a thing until about a century after the founding fathers died, so I doubt they'd perceive us as anything more unusual than Oscar Wilde if he lived during their time. Confirmed bachelors, fops and dandies weren't feared or derided, just dismissed. Also it was pretty common for men to have mancrushes then and even to admit they love their bestie.

Being trans was a lot harder then, but not impossible. Especially because men and women were mostly segregated from each other after childhood. The theatres only had male actors and needed an actor or two to play the female parts. And marriages were usually arranged by the families so the wives and husbands wouldn't always get angry at the other for their indiscretions and idiosyncrasies. To be trans then usually meant they had to disappear and start a new life, and probably wouldn't be able to marry without a family to arrange it, unless they became wealthy somehow (which was more likely during the gold rush). So for FtM, there are a few examples of women living as men, one in particular was a carriage-driver in the late 1800s. I don't know a lot of historical examples on the MtF side tho.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lili Elbe and Christine Jorgensen were transgender women who lived in the 1900s. Lili Elbe was one of the first person who underwent sex correction surgery. Edward De Lacy Evans was a trans man who lived in the 1800s. He were sent to a mental asylum.