Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My last post for tonight is something iv'e been needing to get of my shoulders and something i don't ever feel comfortable speaking about but basically here is the problem. I'm getting this reoccurring fear that when i transition or even when i introduce myself to others and they find out i'm a guy that they'll start treating me overly masculine
or want me to be that stereotypical male and not even overly masculine but expect to a small degree even that'll have to play that role to some degree. I am a guy but iv'e started to dislike to be told to man up because i like being treated with that softer apporch i'm timid and i'm not very open or direct and when i am that means i trust you. It's like people see me and think suddenly oh you're a guy so i'll treat you like this and i still sort of like being treated in the female way
not in a way like feminine but that social approach that non aggressive but a mixture kinda balanced way that females (at least around my areas are treated with) And i see this even inside the community to a smaller degree and i don't like it it's like i feel outcast ed because yea i'm a guy but yea i'm soft i don't mind that and no one understands.  And now it's created this fear like is society going to treat me so much like a guy that i won't be treated fairly or understood? i don't want things to change in that way. No i'm not a girl and no i'm not really feminine that it shows i'm just i don't know i'm me? And i don't want my interactions with people to change and people to change approaches when i look like a guy and at the same time i want T and i want to do this but i start going if this is going to change do i really want this?
Because if this changes, i'm all out in trouble i just couldn't take that. I don't even think our society is at that point of understanding this kind of thing with some men yet so i get more scared and start thinking should i wait for the next generation? Should i transition but do it in 10 or 20 years from now instead do to the chance of it being more open and more knowledge then it has even today?   

It has to be said, men and women are treated differently out there. It goes for all aspects of life in whichever gender that most of what you encounter out there is beyond your control, but things to do with yourself and your own choices are in your own control at least. I wouldn't wait hoping society was going to treat men in a different way. That could take some considerable time or maybe it will never happen, and there's no guarantee society will necessarily move in future generations toward the trends we might want.

You can limit your interactions to the people that you are comfortable with or treat you in a way you are comfortable with. You can't control wider society, but at least you can pick your friends.

As mtf I've felt pressure or chosen to adopt roles both to pass as male earlier in life - then I felt it as simply pressure to act masculine and later realized it as an act of passing. I've also used it as the path of least resistance, e.g. when dealing with someone at work who plays masculine dominance games, convince him that I am one of the same tribe so that things go more smoothly.

I tried, mostly with success to stop doing this about 15 years ago - very much part of transitioning for me which I have kept to social things until this year.

The best reciprocal situation I can think of is at the university where I work there are instructors well known for affording far more assistance to female students. Of course the students recognize this and teams will send the women for help as a competitive advantage.

I have tried very hard to be sure I don't show that kind of bias. I realize that women experience this more than I know and I don't want to be that person.

Long & short, yes social situations are going to put pressure of expectation on you. Work has always been hardest for me as one can only executive so much control on one's work environment. My transition plan is to present as the most feminine looking but still passing as male most of the time. I think this will eliminate some of the pressure at the expense of some negative judgements.

Tristan, unfortunately unless you work in a office environment of some sort (though this isn't limited to work place interaction in the least), you will be required to deal with the macho bs to some degree or other. Personally, I've never told anybody to "man up", but there does come a point were you have to put on your big boy/girl pants and deal with it. Inter-male social interaction in general is more gruff than female social interaction, it's just one of those things that "just is". Doesn't necessarily make it right in of itself, but its one of those things that "it is what it is".

I myself don't exactly fall in the masculine category, so I do get where you're coming from.

You'll be surprised how much starting T can change your perspective on things like this. When you take T, the way you perceive yourself changes. Right now you may be softer and more timid, but it's not unusual for T to make us more assertive and more confident. You might find that your mind & personality adjust along with your body (as is the case for many of us) and you'll wind up being a more contented, more rounded human being as a result. And it takes many months (or even years) for T to have its full effect, so if you find you don't like it you can always come off it before much has changed.

You'd also be surprised how men get treated in society: it may not be what you think it is. Of course, this all depends on where you live and what the prevailing culture is like, but in my experience both men and women are treated aggressively but the aggression just takes a different form. With men, the aggression is mainly competitive (basically a peeing contest) and sometimes - rarely - it breaks into physical aggression. In my culture, it's mostly in the form of jokes & banter - so getting good at that can be very helpful because it can deflect the other forms of aggression. It's up to you whether you engage with any of that. And of course, women can be aggressive towards men too - but as they're generally physically weaker, it takes different forms - mostly mental, emotional and (where appropriate) sexual. But despite this 'weaker sex' reputation, there are plenty women who have physically attacked both other women... and men.

With women, the aggression they suffer tends to be less physical (generally), but it's more intellectual, emotional, financial and social. In general, women are talked down to by everyone but especially men and they're treated like they can't do anything for themselves. This is sold to us as 'chivalry' and we're told it's a good thing but really, it's a way of infantilising women. It gets very stale very quickly, as most of us who've moved through the world in a female form at one time or another can attest. Then there's things like the glass ceiling, unequal pay for equal work, and a societal assumption that women should be homemakers and primary carers of children and men should be protectors and providers. All of these things really do still exist, and they're all forms of aggression. We just accept them because we've always been told that this is just the way things are done.

If men try to dominate each other, women - of course - do the same thing but with subtle differences. I learned very early on that there's no such thing as a 'sisterhood' of women sticking together to achieve their common goals. Instead, women generally compare themselves to each other, compete against each other for the best man, the best house, the best kids etc. etc. and some of them tend to put each other down so that they can elevate their own social standing. So they also have their own 'peeing contests' but they just take a different form. Which is kinda apt, really.

So there isn't a gender role that is 'perfect' or 'better' than the other. But we tend to find that a particular gender role (or our interpretation of it) is more suitable for us as individuals than another. So when's the perfect time to move over to the right team? The answer is: there's never a perfect time: there never has been, and there never will be. There's only the right time for you - and if that's now, that's now. If it's 5 or 10 or 20 years from now, well so be it.

But know this: dysphoria gets worse as time goes on, and the sooner you start your transition the better your results will be. So if you need to transition, you might as well get on with it - because society never can and never will be perfect for each individual's needs.

There's nothing wrong with being a soft guy. We all have to find our own paths in life, and if that's your path then that's perfectly OK.

Maleness, such as it is, is about aggressive, predatory competition; display behavior that is the nature, "touch me and I'll kill you.", and preening for female attention.. without SEEMING to want female attention.

Its not the end of the world for the losers of this competition, but that doesn't change the existence of it.   You don't have to win to be "part of the tribe"; but you do have to at least look like you are trying to compete.   Failing to show interest essentially invalidates the competition and devalues the prize; which is interpreted as a dismissal of the winner.

Male winners do NOT like to be treated dismissively.

That's what I got from my tour on the T side; in an attempt to avoid being beaten to death.

Quote from: rwOnnaDesuKa on August 17, 2016, 08:28:43 AM
Maleness, such as it is, is about aggressive, predatory competition; display behavior that is the nature, "touch me and I'll kill you.", and preening for female attention.. without SEEMING to want female attention.

...
Failing to show interest essentially invalidates the competition and devalues the prize; which is interpreted as a dismissal of the winner.

With all due respect, that's not maleness: that's some of the worst aspects of how some hetero guys behave. It's basically dudebros. Not everyone's a dudebro. But you're right: those guys do like to try to assert dominance wherever they can. Thankfully, they're in a minority.

Female attention? They're welcome to it - I want no part of it.

The prize? It only matters if you want it. I've quite happily said that I'm not interested in what some other guys are competing for, and in general they leave you alone (or dismiss you as the 'loser') and carry on trying to puff out their chests around people who'll be impressed by them. The winner only cares about your opinion if he thinks you're worth his time.

But nobody needs to play along with them if they don't want to. It's perfectly possible to be a man without having to resort to those extreme stereotypes. Preferable, too.

I'm just typing what I experienced.    I know the smushings stopped when I began to make a half-ax'ed effort to compete.   Didn't have to win, just had to look like I wanted to.

Quote from: Tristan on August 17, 2016, 04:23:43 AM
My last post for tonight is something iv'e been needing to get of my shoulders and something i don't ever feel comfortable speaking about but basically here is the problem. I'm getting this reoccurring fear that when i transition or even when i introduce myself to others and they find out i'm a guy that they'll start treating me overly masculine
or want me to be that stereotypical male and not even overly masculine but expect to a small degree even that'll have to play that role to some degree. I am a guy but iv'e started to dislike to be told to man up because i like being treated with that softer apporch i'm timid and i'm not very open or direct and when i am that means i trust you. It's like people see me and think suddenly oh you're a guy so i'll treat you like this and i still sort of like being treated in the female way
not in a way like feminine but that social approach that non aggressive but a mixture kinda balanced way that females (at least around my areas are treated with) And i see this even inside the community to a smaller degree and i don't like it it's like i feel outcast ed because yea i'm a guy but yea i'm soft i don't mind that and no one understands.  And now it's created this fear like is society going to treat me so much like a guy that i won't be treated fairly or understood? i don't want things to change in that way. No i'm not a girl and no i'm not really feminine that it shows i'm just i don't know i'm me? And i don't want my interactions with people to change and people to change approaches when i look like a guy and at the same time i want T and i want to do this but i start going if this is going to change do i really want this?
Because if this changes, i'm all out in trouble i just couldn't take that. I don't even think our society is at that point of understanding this kind of thing with some men yet so i get more scared and start thinking should i wait for the next generation? Should i transition but do it in 10 or 20 years from now instead do to the chance of it being more open and more knowledge then it has even today?

I get the same anxieties with this too. I worry that the minute people identify me as a man, stereotypes of what a man should be are already populating their minds when they think of me and then expect me to act in a way that isn't even "me" anymore. Like it's difficult for me to really be myself still because of that and because of my legal name and my voice. I usually keep to myself and only interact when I really have to because of this. By the way, I hate that phrase, "man up." It's the most annoying cis-like words ever.

I've grown up with "softer" guys and, more often than not, they are perceived as just "sensitive". Nothing wrong with that. What's more important as a male is confidence. When it comes to being a man, it may be that there are some unspoken expectations, but as long as you are comfortable and confident as the man that you are, there's no doubt in my mind that they'll see that as a sign that "homie don't play that."

It's about confidence, not machismo. Those dominance/macho games are oftentimes meant for dude-bros to spot other dude-bros. If you're not a dude-bro, don't participate. If you want to be perceived as a man, or manly, just be yourself and be confident about it. One can break it down into assertiveness and other words that mean relatively the same thing, but that's all it really is, from my experience growing up as a man. Other men respect when you are honest and direct. Beating around the bush and not being completely honest is not a good sign. Straight and to the point is the key to interactions. There's room for tact, if that's what you want to use, but stay on point.

Body language is also important. See how you feel after you stand tall with your hands on your hips for about 10 seconds (superhero pose). Slouching with your hands in your pockets is a sign that there's something wrong and that your confidence is low.

Not sure what else to say. Being a man isn't about games, but games are a way to bond with other men. If a particular activity isn't your thing, don't be afraid to say so. I've grown up not liking sports very much and I wasn't less respected. In my experience, if you're upfront about not liking something, you won't be looked down upon.

Take it for what it's worth to you. I hope this helps. :)

Quote from: FTMDiaries on August 17, 2016, 07:04:28 AM
You'll be surprised how much starting T can change your perspective on things like this. When you take T, the way you perceive yourself changes. Right now you may be softer and more timid, but it's not unusual for T to make us more assertive and more confident. You might find that your mind & personality adjust along with your body (as is the case for many of us) and you'll wind up being a more contented, more rounded human being as a result. And it takes many months (or even years) for T to have its full effect, so if you find you don't like it you can always come off it before much has changed.

You'd also be surprised how men get treated in society: it may not be what you think it is. Of course, this all depends on where you live and what the prevailing culture is like, but in my experience both men and women are treated aggressively but the aggression just takes a different form. With men, the aggression is mainly competitive (basically a peeing contest) and sometimes - rarely - it breaks into physical aggression. In my culture, it's mostly in the form of jokes & banter - so getting good at that can be very helpful because it can deflect the other forms of aggression. It's up to you whether you engage with any of that. And of course, women can be aggressive towards men too - but as they're generally physically weaker, it takes different forms - mostly mental, emotional and (where appropriate) sexual. But despite this 'weaker sex' reputation, there are plenty women who have physically attacked both other women... and men.

With women, the aggression they suffer tends to be less physical (generally), but it's more intellectual, emotional, financial and social. In general, women are talked down to by everyone but especially men and they're treated like they can't do anything for themselves. This is sold to us as 'chivalry' and we're told it's a good thing but really, it's a way of infantilising women. It gets very stale very quickly, as most of us who've moved through the world in a female form at one time or another can attest. Then there's things like the glass ceiling, unequal pay for equal work, and a societal assumption that women should be homemakers and primary carers of children and men should be protectors and providers. All of these things really do still exist, and they're all forms of aggression. We just accept them because we've always been told that this is just the way things are done.

If men try to dominate each other, women - of course - do the same thing but with subtle differences. I learned very early on that there's no such thing as a 'sisterhood' of women sticking together to achieve their common goals. Instead, women generally compare themselves to each other, compete against each other for the best man, the best house, the best kids etc. etc. and some of them tend to put each other down so that they can elevate their own social standing. So they also have their own 'peeing contests' but they just take a different form. Which is kinda apt, really.

So there isn't a gender role that is 'perfect' or 'better' than the other. But we tend to find that a particular gender role (or our interpretation of it) is more suitable for us as individuals than another. So when's the perfect time to move over to the right team? The answer is: there's never a perfect time: there never has been, and there never will be. There's only the right time for you - and if that's now, that's now. If it's 5 or 10 or 20 years from now, well so be it.

But know this: dysphoria gets worse as time goes on, and the sooner you start your transition the better your results will be. So if you need to transition, you might as well get on with it - because society never can and never will be perfect for each individual's needs.

There's nothing wrong with being a soft guy. We all have to find our own paths in life, and if that's your path then that's perfectly OK.

Very well stated about gender roles. And being a male (or female) and expectation is also cultural, depending where you live in the world, and then again by social class. Different expectations, but in the west at least much of the above stated by FTMDiaries is true.

As a female, my behaviour of being assertive and confident as a scientist has been interpreted in various negative ways--if I was recognised as a man, it would be right on. I've been mansplained many times. Or my confidence is interpreted as flirting...! Or various things. There is aggression and competition on both the male and female side of things, just in different ways. There are also folks who are supportive, men and female.

But aside from all that stuff, we have choices about how we want to go out in the world and put ourselves out there. Being confident helps everyone irrespective of where they fall on the gender spectrum. Be kind to yourself. Your interests can be whatever you like. Surround yourself as much as you can with supportive people who care about you. And forge your own path about what it means to be male, to you.