Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Split from topic 'Feminine Deportment Info'.

Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 07:37:40 AM
Does anyone know of any resources (web sites or books etc) I can look at that discuss feminine deportment. I'm keen to ensure my movement and mannerisms are as feminine as possible.

I think femininity and mannerisms are natural to those who are transsexual....

Posted on: October 26, 2007, 08:25:35 AM

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Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 08:33:32 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on October 26, 2007, 08:25:35 AM

Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 07:37:40 AM
Does anyone know of any resources (web sites or books etc) I can look at that discuss feminine deportment. I'm keen to ensure my movement and mannerisms are as feminine as possible.

I think femininity and mannerisms are natural to those who are transsexual....

Just as well its only your opinion.
A constructive response would be appreciated.

I was genuine in thinking that if you are truly TS these things would be more natural. I'm sorry if you thought my comments were offensive. Femininity was my natural instinct from a very early age and my mannerisms were feminine even while presenting as a male when I was younger. For me it was natural and I assumed that was the case for all transsexuals.


Posted on: October 26, 2007, 09:02:26 AM

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Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 09:12:26 AM

You should also understand that our mannerisms can also be influenced by environmental circumstances.

I didn't imply anything........this purely was my own experience. Why don't you enphasise what your 'environmental circumstances' were and why they affected your mannerisms?

Your being a little sharp Lydia. There's no need at all to be personal, and it is against the wishes of the site to attack personally. Berleigh has apologised for any offence caused. It'd be nice if you were to apologise about the personal things you've said, she was merely offering her opinion.

On a different tack, the Susan's wikipedia has lots of articles about getting into the spirit of feminine movement and re-righting some of the wrongs that have been indoctrinated by your male upbringing. Good luck with it.

Hi, Lydia,

There is truth in Berliegh's observation about some things coming naturally to those who are TS.  For me it became automatic when I began HRT.  I was taking estrogen and androgen blockers, under my doctor's supervision,  About 5 weeks into my HRT I noticed that I was changing. 

Physically, my breasts began to feel sore and they started to develop.  My nipples were always hard and didn't need any stimulation to become hard, something I had never felt before.  But that was only a tiny part of all that began to change.  I began to see large changes in my general deportment, the way I moved, walked, sat, talked, even the way I handled my tableware when I ate!  My speech patterns changed as did my diction and choice of words, and I didn't even try, I just let it happen.  For me the gifts bestowed on me by Mother Estrogen were profound.  There were new and different neural pathways in my physical brain that put my mind in an entirely new way of thinking, of responding to life. 

Given what I witnessed in my own life and its changes I am convinced that it was the estrogen and anti-androgen that enabled it for me.

I agree that we women have both instinctive or inborn behaviours as well as learned behaviours.  May I suggest that, if you are on HRT, to let it do its work and that you can help it along by reading the information that others have mentioned?  Another possible is the TS Roadmap, if it's still on the web.

Whatever happens, be yourself and work to be a credit to yourself and our gender.

I hope that this helps. 

Paula

Quote from: Wing Walker on October 27, 2007, 12:00:48 AM
I began to see large changes in my general deportment, the way I moved, walked, sat, talked, even the way I handled my tableware when I ate!  My speech patterns changed as did my diction and choice of words, and I didn't even try, I just let it happen.

Yup, same thing happened to me. I don't really know why. I was certainly more "masculine" in behaviour before transitioning - so I'm guessing it's actually just a matter of being re-socialized now... at least for me. I wasn't "naturally feminine" as a child. I wasn't super-masculine either, but I can't fall back on the "it was always natural for me" justification.

I WILL say that whatever it is, it IS "normal" now. I'm not studying anyone, or mimicking what I see. It just seems to be a natural part of the evolution of a transition.

~Kate~

I see it a wee bit differently though.  I see it as a way to "undo" all the "male behavior" we were literally programmed to learn since childhood.  IMO, transition is exactly that, "a bridge" where you learn to undo and discard what you don't need and assimilate the gender roles which match who you are.

Still though, all behavior is learned.  Girls learn to be girls from other girls/girlfriends, from their moms, aunts, etc; it's the socializing and with whom you socialize that makes it all possible.  You take what you need and mold *it* to fit who *you* are and voila, your style is born.

Certainly a woman is a woman here, in China or in Mars...BUT not all women behave in the same way.  I usually find it fascinating when I go to the mall for instance.  I see all types of women (from different races, backgrounds...perhaps social status as well), and every single one of them is unique even though the base of that behavior started in the same way. 


tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Kate on October 27, 2007, 01:46:13 PM

Quote from: Wing Walker on October 27, 2007, 12:00:48 AM
I began to see large changes in my general deportment, the way I moved, walked, sat, talked, even the way I handled my tableware when I ate!  My speech patterns changed as did my diction and choice of words, and I didn't even try, I just let it happen.

Yup, same thing happened to me. I don't really know why. I was certainly more "masculine" in behaviour before transitioning - so I'm guessing it's actually just a matter of being re-socialized now... at least for me. I wasn't "naturally feminine" as a child. I wasn't super-masculine either, but I can't fall back on the "it was always natural for me" justification.

I WILL say that whatever it is, it IS "normal" now. I'm not studying anyone, or mimicking what I see. It just seems to be a natural part of the evolution of a transition.

~Kate~

Quote from: Tink on October 27, 2007, 02:09:22 PM
I see it a wee bit differently though.  I see it as a way to "undo" all the "male behavior" we were literally programmed to learn since childhood.  IMO, transition is exactly that, "a bridge" where you learn to undo and discard what you don't need and assimilate the gender roles which match who you are.

Still though, all behavior is learned.  Girls learn to be girls from other girls/girlfriends, from their moms, aunts, etc; it's the socializing and with whom you socialize that makes it all possible.  You take what you need and mold *it* to fit who *you* are and voila, your style is born.

Certainly a woman is a woman here, in China or in Mars...BUT not all women behave in the same way.  I usually find it fascinating when I go to the mall for instance.  I see all types of women (from different races, backgrounds...perhaps social status as well), and every single one of them is unique even though the base of that behavior started in the same way. 


tink :icon_chick:

I concur with Tink, Kate. Your behaviour before was probably due to male socialization. Some of us also subconsciously put on an act so no one will 'see' we're not our birth gender. I did, with certain people. But that is all superficial and should fall away like a banana peel once you realize what you've been doing.
There are some things that are learned behaviours which are mostly social cues. These are learned as they differ between cultures.
But  being a woman is innate, not learned. Having that female touch in everything you do is natural.

Quote from: Tink on October 27, 2007, 02:09:22 PM
I see it a wee bit differently though.  I see it as a way to "undo" all the "male behavior" we were literally programmed to learn since childhood.  IMO, transition is exactly that, "a bridge" where you learn to undo and discard what you don't need and assimilate the gender roles which match who you are.

Still though, all behavior is learned.  Girls learn to be girls from other girls/girlfriends, from their moms, aunts, etc; it's the socializing and with whom you socialize that makes it all possible.  You take what you need and mold *it* to fit who *you* are and voila, your style is born.

Certainly a woman is a woman here, in China or in Mars...BUT not all women behave in the same way.  I usually find it fascinating when I go to the mall for instance.  I see all types of women (from different races, backgrounds...perhaps social status as well), and every single one of them is unique even though the base of that behavior started in the same way. 


tink :icon_chick:

I quite agree with Tink too.  Masculinity and femininity is learned through parents or other peeps: telling your sons not to cry and girls its OK. Letting boys hit and tackle each other, but scold girls if they do it. Teach girls how to wear makeup, but discourage boys to use it.

Men are assigned to be in charge, but girls to follow-listen to your brother. You have to listen to the person in charge of the house, usually a man. most work places are controlled by men :doctors (M) and nurses (F), Professors (M) and teachers (F).

When women take more control in the household, then they will take more control in the corporate world. They should find respectable men to marry, ones who are for equality.

There is a great book I read about this.  Its called THE MORAL ANIMAL by Robert Wright.  It explains why we are the way we are using evolutionary psychology and Charles Darwin's Origin of Man.

Everything we have done, are doing, and always will do is based on survival--including gender roles.

it is just the way things are. I personally think that it comes from a few centuries ago when men were considered to be the better sex. I think a lot of people now a days are viewing things differently and I would think within the next century the promicuity roles will be very different.  The only thing missing in the values you guys have is "marriage" that is it, the roles are perfect and you obviously have been brought up very well. Good for you. And kudos to him for appreciating you for it. ;) Lol

Quote from: Yvonne on October 27, 2007, 06:35:31 PM

Quote from: Tink on October 27, 2007, 02:09:22 PM
I see it a wee bit differently though.  I see it as a way to "undo" all the "male behavior" we were literally programmed to learn since childhood.  IMO, transition is exactly that, "a bridge" where you learn to undo and discard what you don't need and assimilate the gender roles which match who you are.

Still though, all behavior is learned.  Girls learn to be girls from other girls/girlfriends, from their moms, aunts, etc; it's the socializing and with whom you socialize that makes it all possible.  You take what you need and mold *it* to fit who *you* are and voila, your style is born.

Certainly a woman is a woman here, in China or in Mars...BUT not all women behave in the same way.  I usually find it fascinating when I go to the mall for instance.  I see all types of women (from different races, backgrounds...perhaps social status as well), and every single one of them is unique even though the base of that behavior started in the same way. 


tink :icon_chick:

I quite agree with Tink too.  Masculinity and femininity is learned through parents or other peeps: telling your sons not to cry and girls its OK. Letting boys hit and tackle each other, but scold girls if they do it. Teach girls how to wear makeup, but discourage boys to use it.

Men are assigned to be in charge, but girls to follow-listen to your brother. You have to listen to the person in charge of the house, usually a man. most work places are controlled by men :doctors (M) and nurses (F), Professors (M) and teachers (F).

When women take more control in the household, then they will take more control in the corporate world. They should find respectable men to marry, ones who are for equality.

There is a great book I read about this.  Its called THE MORAL ANIMAL by Robert Wright.  It explains why we are the way we are using evolutionary psychology and Charles Darwin's Origin of Man.

Everything we have done, are doing, and always will do is based on survival--including gender roles.

Evolutionary psychology as in like our past history and how women and men acted which relates to today sort of? 

Sorry if I offend anyone here :P  But like the whole idea that men are disposable, and women are cherised and prized in a sense.  After all, one man can repopulate the world if need be, but women hold all the real power in a sense.  I'm just wondering if that's what was going on with the whole evolutionary psychology stuff.  At least I thought that's some of the reasons we act the way we do.  In regards to that perspective.

Gender is constructed socially and so are gender roles.  The more you socialize with peeps of the same sex as you, the more you will be like them.  This is not new and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out or comprehend.  Little boys imitate their dads, little girls their mum.  As we grow up, we learn to behave by imitating peeps that share our "sex".  Our behaviour is learnt from the moment we are born.

I have to agree with Berliegh here.  As much as gender expression is socialized, much of it is natural behavior too.
Quite a few of us never had to learn anything, and were found quite peculiar or queer as men because our behavior was very feminine naturally.
For me the only thing that took some time to learn was adjusting my voice.  Everything else was rather easy. 

Socialization, while tried, just never sets in for some people and behavior is just naturally feminine.  My behaviors and expression tended to be more feminine my entire life, and it was why I was subject to redicule as a child, why I was considered strange and androgynous as a teenager, and why I got nasty looks as an adult.  Which is weird, because I pass more as a female than I ever did as a male, largely because those behaviors are now just considered naturally feminine instead of strange.

Alot of this is based on my own personal experience.  The reality is as much as its socialized, some of us never took to the socialization and ended up acting more feminine, because that is who were are.

I highly suggest reading Julia Serano, she has great commentary on this issue in Whipping Girl. 

I will take a different tack, people say the way I act is very feminine, but I feel I've barely changed, just felt less self conscious about doing some thngs. The one thing I noticed change a lot is that I smile a lot.

I thing the eye of the beholder interprets things differently if they're done by a women, or a man.

Quote from: Keira on October 28, 2007, 10:27:50 AM
I thing the eye of the beholder interprets things differently if they're done by a women, or a man.

True. Like with the smile thing. A woman smiling at a stranger is taken differently than when a man does it. And a woman can pretty much say anything she wants without appearing threatening. Motives are more often assigned to men, while a woman just appears friendly.

I found it was harder to learn to be male. I now just walk and do things and don't think anything about it. When growing up, I was always trying to walk like the boys and men in my presence. I was always thinking of how I should hold my hand and not to walk with a swish, even though I was big. I pulled it off, most of the time. I was a little more emotional than most boys as I seemed to cry uncontrollably. I couldn't help it and I think that caused me to lose some friends. When I started into my transition, it seemed like the easiest thing I have ever done, like it was meant to be. It came very natural to me. Now, I'm not a girly girl, but just an average woman.
Sheila

I never "got" male behavior, and consequently was harassed throughout childhood because I didn't conform. Certainly society sent signals of how it thought I should act... and tried to punish me for not fitting in. I've always been this same way, I didn't have to learn how to act like a woman, it felt more natural to me than being a man.

Zythyra

QuoteDoes gender behaviour come naturally?

It does but if it doesn't match our birth sex, it is quickly discouraged by our parents, peers and so on.

Quote from: Butterfly on October 28, 2007, 02:59:57 AM
Gender is constructed socially and so are gender roles.  The more you socialize with peeps of the same sex as you, the more you will be like them.  This is not new and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out or comprehend.  Little boys imitate their dads, little girls their mum.  As we grow up, we learn to behave by imitating peeps that share our "sex".  Our behaviour is learnt from the moment we are born.

I learned from girls, actually. Although my mom tried really hard to get me into more "male things" (as the doctor suggested, since I was a "boy" and if I could be put into male roles it would stick and I would be a boy through conditioning).

I still went out with my friends, played house and barbies (not telling my mom). She'd throw cars at me and all of that. I would play with them sometimes, and My GI Joe would be barbies. I played different than my brother. My brother grew up to be a man. I didn't. We had the same stuff thrown at us, but the way we played was very different.

So, then, the question is, if your sense of gender is in your brain (biological) would you gravitate towards the girl social world?

Even though I went through therapy to be more guy like (I did several times in my life, and the last time was when I was 20), it was very difficult to undo the girl habits I picked up. I picked the habits up from my girl friends, from my mom, from my mom's girl friends -- I had male role models, I had a dad. And after the divorce (when I was 11), I we had a hired male role model (an actual counceller to encourage me to be male). My mom was pretty worried. And yes, I would get beaten up for being to girly. I had a lot of negative reinforcement throughout my life that I should be male. People tried very, very hard to condition me as male. Professionals, family members, therapy, drugs, and etc. I felt pretty guilty and tried hard, but it still didn't work out.

One of my last girl friends, before I transitioned, always complained that I was too much of a girl. Being with me was like being with a girl. I tried being more guy like. I grew facial hair. But then people thought that I must be gay or something (that's what she thought for the longest time until I came out to her a year after we broke up).

Still, I think male habits are picked up. Sometimes I do things that are male-ish or actually, tomboy-ish. I live with three girls, so I'm in their social world now and learning constantly from that. So, even though when I was younger I was picking a lot of my habits from other girls, I've picked up more and learned more than I would just from my childhood, etc. I found it easy, refreshing, and liberating to be one of the girls. It feels natural to me.

So, I think socialization is a cultural thing, but I think that there is something with the brain as well. I think the story of David Reimer illustrates something. He had a botched circumcision, so he was born male, but through accident he was forced to be female. He had surgery done, he was raised as a woman, and given all of those early-on social learnings. Yet, in his teens, he still felt like a man. Eventually he found out about his condition and became a man.

That story is famous one, but their are a lot of examples of people born in one gender or another who just don't identify with that gender. So, there's a strong argument that the sense of gender is biological. And even though all of the social stuff is thrown at you, you're not comfortable with it. And you still seem to pick up and learn from females, even if you are perceived as male (or vice versa, of course).

I was alive when the theory of how you raise a child will determine their gender was very popular (still is, but not so much). I had therapy as a kid. I saw a doctor who was very sure that my early onset girly behavior could be counteracted and turned off.

When I transitioned it didn't surprise a lot of people (but it didn't necessarily make them happy either, since they put so much effort to prevent me from turning transsexual on them). My half sister wasn't surprised. My mom's best friend wasn't at all (I used to hang out with her daughter all the time and play girl stuff... I didn't want to hang out with the boys). Pretty much everyone who knew me as a kid, people who knew me in school, and people who knew me in the last 10 years, I didn't surprise them. I got a lot of, "Huh, well that makes sense!"

And then comes the question of people who don't identify with any gender. I'm a girl, that's who I am. But I know people who are androgynous, and that's who they are and they are happy with that. If gender is learned, then how do non-genders exist? What is the drive for for that? Social, or maybe it is biological. Just like who you are attracted to is biological -- you can try your hardest to condition a gay man to be straight, but it isn't going to work. We know that. We have lesbians, bisexual, asexual, pansexual... you name it. It's there, and that drive is in us, in our brains, somewhere. An environmental condition isn't going to make someone gay or straight, nor will therapy, or all of the social context you try; They are who they are, and I am who I am.

I know that I've been driven to be female. I wasn't socially trained to be a girl. I wasn't encouraged to be a girl. But I had the drive somewhere deep inside because what I was learning and being presented with didn't match who I was.

And the other thing, every girl in my house is different. I'm different. I'm learning from them and other girls, but I still am myself, no girl is like me, and no girl is like another girl. Two of my roommates are twins. They are different people, yet they grew up in the same environment. They have personality, and personality grows but isn't learned. Two people in the exact same situations, even if you could control everything, will turn out to be different people.

But, yes, I would have to say that I'm more feminine now than I was before, simply because I'm not stuck trying to be male for other people and trying to copy male behavior. We copy behavior to survive. I learned male behaviors cause in this world if you look like a guy, acting like a guy is how you survive. Now that I'm being who I am, I'm relieved and liberated. And of course, to survive in the girl world I need to learn girl socialization that I didn't get like my friends did. But, even though it's surviving, it doesn't feel like it because I'm being who I am and going with the flow I naturally am inclined to do, rather than going against what I'm naturally inclined to do.

In my case, there's a natural inclination for me to be a woman. Of course one can go against that natural feeling and learn to be someone they are not, but they will never feel that being someone they are not as natural.

So, anyway, sorry for the long post. I think that yes, you learn behaviors but there is something biological going on as well (with me anyway, maybe everyone is different). This is my opinion anyway; It could be brilliant, it could be BS.


--natalie

'course  some things are physically different and have to be learnt. shoulder width or hips or other things of that nature which affect your movements.

...Weird goings on indeed!   

I thought my posts had disappeared....only to find them re-appearing here.....and I didn't start this thread..

It caused so much fuss last time because I said I personally found it easy and natural, which I did and always have done. It was much harder to for me to adapt a male behaviour pattern than female behaviour which came far more naturally to me. Prior to transition people thought I was gay because of my mannerisms.

It's all learned, but it's not all consciously learned.

Hmmm, I was close to my father and we did things together. Close to male and female members of the extended family. Neighborhood friends were all male for my first few years I remember in detail ~4-7 y.o. Mostly male friends in grade school, most of the teachers were women.... I was trained to be a perfect little gentleman, something that would forever make me feel out of step with modern times.

Yet I was often "mistaken" as a girl growing up and carried myself in a femme manner until it was pointed out and I made the changes I had to in order to cover it up. I never got boys but I never really got girls either. I find people of all genders to be strange creatures with quite unusual thinking habits.

I have been asked where I learned to carry myself so well and so much like a woman. I cannot answer. I have been asked to teach others and I cannot.

This does not make me any more or any less of the person that I am, just one of the "lucky" few who had one less thing to worry about during and after transition.

heres my 2c... but there is an amount of programing, but this in my view, is easily overcome by someone who is genuinely female (lets use m2f in this example as its most debated) behaving femininely, and a female behaving naturally are two different things, and its visible. i dont mean to dishearten those who belive they dont have female manerisms, but physical learned behaviour with the intent of showing something often looks false... And its visible in transwomen, there are some (dont kill me here) who transition for the wrong reasons, some who use sites like this and others, to gain information to tell therapists what they want to hear, for thier own ends, which is thier belief that they should transition, or its a good idea. that transition might save thier rotten life, or a breakdown of some sort. These people exist, and thier easy to spot and read, they scream male with every part of themselves, nomatter how well they visually pass. Some transwomen are genuinely female in responses and behaviour naturally, weather this is always the case in life, or otherwise. and these are the hardest to read, because like natal females, they dont behave in a certain way to prove thier female, they are.... then there are some, who with a little help, and 'deprograming' can express thier true femininity. but thats all thats needed, some direction, one doesnt LEARN how to be seen as female, if your having to constantly think about behaviour, day in day out,  its not natural for you, and natural is what this games all about...
call this a rant, call it biggoted, feel free, but only those who fall into the aforementioned category, and i fear these will be the ones to kick up a fuss, a delusional minority. Dont mistake this post for saying if you havent always acted naturally for a female, you arnt. Thats not what my post says, so get new specs ;)
R :police:

To some extent, everyone has a set of female mannerisms. Everyone - boy or girl. Its where we get caught up in whether or not that is a measure of ->-bleeped-<-ness do we get confused I think. You can have very feminine straight guys and you can have very masculine female girls - doesn't make 'em trans. It has a large part to do with personality - some people I guess have a more "feminine" personality. Some girls who happen to have a very feminine personality are also happen to be trans and yet that doesn't make them ->-bleeped-<-r nor does it make their dysphoria stronger. Some things are just part of social expression and I feel it that has very little to do with dysphoria.

I have just been reading Donna Rose's book where she talk about getting a life coach to learn how to be female and franckly I think it is wrong. Any transision I do will be so I can act and feel natural - not to remeber another set of steps and always wonder if I am getting it right. I want to be me plain and simple - if it is female it is not something I should have to learn - it should be me finally relaxed and showing my true self.

Alice

thats what  i mean alice.... if you need a coach to learn how to behave, your just putting on a mask, and isnt that why yo transition? to be YOU?
some folk are lieing to themselves...
R :police:

That's right.
Oh I so agree with you Rachael and Alice.
I'm tired of wearing a mask and I'm sure not going to trade one gender mask for another.
To be the real me is where it is at.
If I'm not female enought for the world that is there problem.

So for me I would say that the your gender behavior comes naturally.
Unlike things that go alone with being a woman like wear makeup, styling your hair, and putting on nail polish. Those are things that must be learned.
:)
Jillieann   

i disagree, thier trappings of femininity, but not part of being a woman...
i dont wear makeup much, if at all, (maybe for going out sometimes) it doesnt make me less female, i have short nails i dont paint often, i wear pants, am i less of a girl? no. Woman isnt what she wears, woman is the fire that burns inside...
R :police:

Rachael I think you misunderstood me.  :(
I mean that being female is natural if it is who you are.
But those other things, the trappings as you called them, have to be learned if you want to use them.
Myself I do like them, sometimes, and I have spent allot of time learning how to do them correctly.  :)
Hope that clears the air between us.
:D
Jillieann

Oh and if I don't use a little makeup I look terrible, that is just like a guy. :(

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 30, 2007, 03:12:51 PM
It's all learned, but it's not all consciously learned.

*Agrees with Lisbeth*

ALL behavior is learned in some fashion, consciously or not.. 

You also can't gender behavior.  Just because a woman is brash, intense, stubborn, doesn't make her any less of a woman,  And if a man is sweet sensitive it doesn't make him less of a man. I know some women that are manlier then men... and vice versa, I have guy friends that are more femme than girls I know...

Behavior. is. not. gendered.

i agree, i know im not daft enough to think i just had the knowlage, but i do know i subconsiously behave like my peers, and it comes naturally to behave that way, as that set of programing fits :)
although i do belive nature has some part. A in initial behaviour and personality, secondly in the foundations to BUILD on... if your not female in the depth of yourself, subconsiously, you WILL act male... men will be men, girls will be girls, body means nothing.
R :police:

But then what do non-binarys act like?

I think everyone acts like themselves.

evidently non binarys act like non binaries,  a mix id guess?
but i think gender behaviour makes non binaries irelevant to this discussion, its a subject relating to transexual individuals, and behaviour related to binary genders.
men and women, and its complicated enough!
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 30, 2007, 09:26:22 PM
evidently non binarys act like non binaries,  a mix id guess?
but i think gender behaviour makes non binaries irelevant to this discussion, its a subject relating to transexual individuals, and behaviour related to binary genders.
men and women, and its complicated enough!
R :police:

Non-binarys CAN have a gender as well.. not ALL non-binaries are null..  So why would a discussion about gender be limited to transsexuals only?  why not non binaries and cisgendered as well?

-Alison  (is not  :icon_builder: or :icon_female: ...  Alison is  :icon_cute:  ... and my opinion counts too?)

edited to be less confrontational -- I posted while ticked off -- I'm sorry Rachael.

What Rachael was trying to say was that non-binary folk's behaviors are defined by how they act. If the behavior of someone that is that particular mixture of gender is defined by how that person is acting already, they're already naturally acting like who they are.

This discussion was intended to be about transexuals I would imagine as some indication of whether those transitioning from one sex to another demonstrate natural tendencies or if they're learned.

She was saying (we think) "You folks are good already with how you act, you define your natural behaviors, we're talking about the people that have to switch"

In this case I think the non-binaries aren't applicable to the intended topic. A more specific topic title would probably have cleared that up but then again it was posted in the MTF section, so we stand by the assumed intended audience. Cisgendered people could probably be brought up in this discussion as well as a reference point, but mostly the binary genders are what are being discussed if only because male and female behaviors are more universally understood.

No one should contest your gender Alison because you define its specifics.

Mia and Marq
Halloween'd

Quote from: Rachael on October 30, 2007, 07:21:52 PM
i agree, i know im not daft enough to think i just had the knowlage, but i do know i subconsiously behave like my peers, and it comes naturally to behave that way, as that set of programing fits :)
although i do belive nature has some part. A in initial behaviour and personality, secondly in the foundations to BUILD on... if your not female in the depth of yourself, subconsiously, you WILL act male... men will be men, girls will be girls, body means nothing.
R :police:

Beautifuly said Rachael..........I agree completely.





beth

This is all quite amusing.  One of the most annoying things a fair proportion of cisgendered people do if they know somebody who is trans is analyse their behaviour to see if it's 'feminine enough'.  If it's not, they're just a man in a dress.

I've met women who heavily give off masculine vibes and men who give off feminine vibes.  How many of these are transsexuals in denial?  Probably very few!  The thing is, cisgendered people are allowed to act however they want without too much scrutiny (applies more to women than men I'll admit), transsexuals aren't.

Seems a lot of people here are in agreement with the old NHS technique of only letting people transition if they are excessively feminine acting and turn up to all their appointments in a flowery dress and a tonne of wonderfully applied makeup.

I'd prefer to base my identity on a deep knowledge of how my body should be and what  I *am*, rather than based on just what group of people I act like.  If I did the latter I'd transition M2F, it's funny how many transsexual women have told me I'm girlier than them and can't understand why I don't just take the 'easier' router of living as a woman than as a 'me'.

Marq and mia are right, i meant that this pertains to a theoretical shift, from one gendered set of behavior, to another, whereas non binary people, weather nul, both, or a hint in each direction usually have their behavior innate to them. Alison, i didn't mean to offend, im sorry, i KNOW, from some experience of interacting with 'androgyny' (suitable grouping?) people, and there is no aquardness, no robotic behavior, they are themselves, and it shows through, same with  a large number of m2fs, then there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.
andra: masculinity doesnt make the man, and femininity doesn't make the female. these are expressions, and no matter how masculine a woman is, she will always be a woman. (unless their a man which voids this idea) Femininity, and behaving and thinking like a female, are not one thing. Masculinity, is separeate from behaving and thinking like a man.
Beth, thankyou :)
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:33:13 AM
Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

I think the faking thing is the key here.  The people who are outed by their behaviour are those who try to be something they're not.  If a really butch m2f just dresses and acts really butch it's not going to get her read, however if she starts trying to put on a really feminine act it quite possibly will.

"Masculinity, is separeate from behaving and thinking like a man."  I must be missing something here, I don't understand what the difference is between a butch masculine acting woman and a similarly acting man except that they're happy with different hormones and different bodies.   ???

does a man behaving femininely make him pass for, or be taken for a woman?


And yeah, being true to yourself is key, hence why i live in my skater jeans and hoodies, tanks if its warm, im a tomboy, and happy with that. tho ill need to buck my ideas up soon with regards to formals and work ><
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:48:30 AM
does a man behaving femininely make him pass for, or be taken for a woman?

No, and this is the key.  Neither would a transsexual woman behaving masculine out her or make her any less of a woman.

didnt i say this?
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:57:00 AM
didnt i say this?
R :police:

Sorry, the idea of us agreeing still scares me  :o
:)

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:57:00 AM
didnt i say this?
R :police:

Unless I misunderstand?

You said this:

Quotethen there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

Couple things that get me --

What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Noone can determine a 'fake' except the person themselves.  They may appear fake you, but again, that is dismissing someones <b> gender identity </b> which to me, really isn't kosher...  If someone says "I am ____"  no matter what they look like how they act, you should take them as how they want to be taken.  Male, Female, both, mix, neither, or something else all together...   This is exactly what is frustrating me lately. 

Quote from: Berliegh on October 26, 2007, 09:40:09 AM

Split from topic 'Feminine Deportment Info'.

Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 07:37:40 AM
Does anyone know of any resources (web sites or books etc) I can look at that discuss feminine deportment. I'm keen to ensure my movement and mannerisms are as feminine as possible.

I think femininity and mannerisms are natural to those who are transsexual....

Posted on: October 26, 2007, 08:25:35 AM

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Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 08:33:32 AM

Quote from: Berliegh on October 26, 2007, 08:25:35 AM

Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 07:37:40 AM
Does anyone know of any resources (web sites or books etc) I can look at that discuss feminine deportment. I'm keen to ensure my movement and mannerisms are as feminine as possible.

I think femininity and mannerisms are natural to those who are transsexual....

Just as well its only your opinion.
A constructive response would be appreciated.

I was genuine in thinking that if you are truly TS these things would be more natural. I'm sorry if you thought my comments were offensive. Femininity was my natural instinct from a very early age and my mannerisms were feminine even while presenting as a male when I was younger. For me it was natural and I assumed that was the case for all transsexuals.


Posted on: October 26, 2007, 09:02:26 AM

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Quote from: Lydia on October 26, 2007, 09:12:26 AM

You should also understand that our mannerisms can also be influenced by environmental circumstances.

I didn't imply anything........this purely was my own experience. Why don't you enphasise what your 'environmental circumstances' were and why they affected your mannerisms?

I only know my experience, and as of like 3rd grade I was being 'corrected' for my posture and physical behavior being too feminine.

I remember it crystal-clear.

Now, people may have different experiences, but my ENTIRE life I've had to 'modify' my behavior, posture, etc - to be more masculine for society's standards, so the premise of this thread makes complete sense to me.

I think the variances you are seeing are just a reflection of the spectrum of gender identity that anyone is born with. 

The girls who may have not experienced things the way I (or other) girls here have are just more 'tomboy.'  It doesn't make them any less TS/TG or inherently female than they are for saying that, just like it wouldn't be for any natal girl.

Quote from: Alison on October 31, 2007, 06:15:03 AM

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:57:00 AM
didnt i say this?
R :police:

Unless I misunderstand?

You said this:

Quotethen there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

Couple things that get me --

What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Noone can determine a 'fake' except the person themselves.  They may appear fake you, but again, that is dismissing someones <b> gender identity </b> which to me, really isn't kosher...  If someone says "I am ____"  no matter what they look like how they act, you should take them as how they want to be taken.  Male, Female, both, mix, neither, or something else all together...   This is exactly what is frustrating me lately. 

i did say at first, my beef isnt with someones gender id, but there are some who transition THINKING this is thier gender id, and doing it to get out of a crummy life or something else. But anyway, my point was regarding male thought patterns.
One trans individual was visiting me
and i was getting ready to go out, and asked thier opinion of my outfit, they proceeded to get too close, touch, and grope, and comments of 'oh if i was still a man id bed you now' this person also stood to pee with the door open... masculinity or femininity aside, mens and womens brains operate differently, and this is scarily clear, Andra knows who i mean...
R :police:

Quote from: Alison on October 30, 2007, 07:13:37 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 30, 2007, 03:12:51 PM
It's all learned, but it's not all consciously learned.

*Agrees with Lisbeth*

ALL behavior is learned in some fashion, consciously or not.. 

You also can't gender behavior.  Just because a woman is brash, intense, stubborn, doesn't make her any less of a woman,  And if a man is sweet sensitive it doesn't make him less of a man. I know some women that are manlier then men... and vice versa, I have guy friends that are more femme than girls I know...

Behavior. is. not. gendered.

As an example of unconscious learning, when I started wearing women's shoes, I started walking like a girl.  I had to in order to keep the stupid things from coming off my feet.

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 31, 2007, 09:11:22 AM
As an example of unconscious learning, when I started wearing women's shoes, I started walking like a girl.  I had to in order to keep the stupid things from coming off my feet.

Exactly what I mean. Living as a woman encourages certain mannerisms and behaviours. Some are physical, like the shoes and clothing being different and forcing you to move differently. Some are social, like how people interact with you. I mean, it's really hard to act male when a man is calling you "sweetie" and "hon," lol.

Now maybe that only comes naturally to people who were "already female" or whatever, I don't know. Or maybe it can happen to anyone who's receptive to it. I'll never know. I only know about my experience, and my experience has been to trust that I AM growing into a woman, as any girl might, through socialization and just LIVING my life.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 31, 2007, 09:55:40 AM

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 31, 2007, 09:11:22 AM
As an example of unconscious learning, when I started wearing women's shoes, I started walking like a girl.  I had to in order to keep the stupid things from coming off my feet.

Exactly what I mean. Living as a woman encourages certain mannerisms and behaviours. Some are physical, like the shoes and clothing being different and forcing you to move differently. Some are social, like how people interact with you. I mean, it's really hard to act male when a man is calling you "sweetie" and "hon," lol.

Yet, it is still learned behavior.  I have known some people who had learned the old male ways so thoroughly that it was really hard for them to learn the new ways.

Even if you grow up as a male doesn't mean your socialized as a male.

If you read cosmo, always are aware of female fashion, hairstyle, manerism, makeup not even paying attention to male one, well it will be very easy act in a feminine way once transition started.

That's why I was such a poor male, I had paid no attention to male socialisation cues.

i didnt read cosmo, or know female fashion, i spent 16 of my 20 years in an all boys school, and when i got to uni, i instantly socialised as female... ><
R :police:

Quote from: Berliegh on October 30, 2007, 02:59:54 PM
...Weird goings on indeed!   

I thought my posts had disappeared....only to find them re-appearing here.....and I didn't start this thread..

lol. sorry, I thought you brought up a good subject separate from the original one.

Posted on: October 31, 2007, 01:18:24 PM

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Quote from: LostInTime on October 30, 2007, 04:15:41 PM
Hmmm, I was close to my father and we did things together. Close to male and female members of the extended family. Neighborhood friends were all male for my first few years I remember in detail ~4-7 y.o. Mostly male friends in grade school, most of the teachers were women.... I was trained to be a perfect little gentleman, something that would forever make me feel out of step with modern times.

Yet I was often "mistaken" as a girl growing up and carried myself in a femme manner until it was pointed out and I made the changes I had to in order to cover it up. I never got boys but I never really got girls either. I find people of all genders to be strange creatures with quite unusual thinking habits.

I have been asked where I learned to carry myself so well and so much like a woman. I cannot answer. I have been asked to teach others and I cannot.

This does not make me any more or any less of the person that I am, just one of the "lucky" few who had one less thing to worry about during and after transition.

Yep. Your true self will shine through despite all of the teaching and socialization in the world.

Posted on: October 31, 2007, 01:22:05 PM

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Quote from: Rachael on October 30, 2007, 05:24:45 PM
heres my 2c... but there is an amount of programing, but this in my view, is easily overcome by someone who is genuinely female (lets use m2f in this example as its most debated) behaving femininely, and a female behaving naturally are two different things, and its visible.

Real talk!
'Female' is not a set of traits to learn. It's not even something that can be put into words. You just know it when you see it.
Case in point: My sister in law drives a truck, speaks in monotone, no makeup, never displays emotion - just a tough little lady. And yet she is SO womanly.
SO female. More female than a lot of prissy, made up ladies.
One cannot 'learn' to be female. One just is, or one isn't.

I don't believe in instant socialisation.
Since by definition socialisation comes from contact with society
it has to be learned. So, of course, 2 years in, your better than
at the start.  But, not everybody starts from the same neutral point.
If you've got a heavy male socialisation ingrained in you, it takes awhile
to undo that.

Many TS never really socialized as male in spite of being in
male environments, like the army or boys school.
This would be more likely in younger TS, since they have needed
to apply less socialisation in making their way into the world.

But, I was a failed male. I was actually diagnosed as having no
real defined adult socialised identity. Quite rare. Because I
didn't want at all to be a male and couldn't be female, I was nothing!!
Its hard to go through life not knowing where you stand on anything.

As for the truck driver thing, or chosing an occupation that used to be done by male prior to 1980, times change and what's expected of a women or man changes. So, socialisation changes to adapt. So, the truck driver women can be all womanly (whatever that means)...

Socialization also depends on what culture and society you live in, Women in the US/Canada/UK/other 'western countries' act completely different then women in tribes in Africa etc...

it is -learned-... It doesn't matter if you spent all your life in an all boys school, you had to been exposed to women at some point..

Do you really think that women (or men, or whoever) all over the world "automatically know" the social cues of their culture at birth?

Quote from: Keira on October 31, 2007, 12:01:57 PM
Even if you grow up as a male doesn't mean your socialized as a male.

If you read cosmo, always are aware of female fashion, hairstyle, manerism, makeup not even paying attention to male one, well it will be very easy act in a feminine way once transition started.

That's why I was such a poor male, I had paid no attention to male socialisation cues.

I disliked fashion magazines intensely.  And honestly this opinion can come off as a little too stereotypical and quite a bit offbase.  But with that being said I have been reading bust, bitch, make/shift and Ms. long before I transitioned.  I was also had a focus in womens and gender history in undergrad.

Remember femininity is not about fashion, hairstyle and makeup, and taking or not taking to socialization, because its not always learned, sometimes its just there.  Some people take more to the socialization process than others, some it is so wrong to them it really does not work.  For me the socialization for the most part did not work.  There is some here that never socialized fully as their birth sex, so there really isn't anything to deprogram, expression was in fact...in congruence with their gender identity from the start.  Expression is not always learned, sometimes it just is.

Seriously everybody here needs to read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. 

Quote from: Amy T. on October 31, 2007, 05:42:39 PM
Remember femininity is not about fashion, hairstyle and makeup, and taking or not taking to socialization, because its not always learned, sometimes its just there.  Some people take more to the socialization process than others, some it is so wrong to them it really does not work.  For me the socialization for the most part did not work.  There is some here that never socialized fully as their birth sex, so there really isn't anything to deprogram, expression was in fact...in congruence with their gender identity from the start.  Expression is not always learned, sometimes it just is.

Word! And this isn't going to make me popular.... but I think some use the 'birth gender socialization and circumstances' excuse because being their target gender doesn't come naturally to them.

Posted on: October 31, 2007, 06:53:22 PM

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So of course they see gender as 'learned'. Some social cues of a given culture are learned, but gender behaviour is not.
If one doesn't experience it for themselves, and have to study it, of course they won't know that for others it is inherent and as natural as breathing.

One I never understand is why when I give example of looking for socialisation cues in women and include the most obvious ones, it just drives some people up the wall, like I had sent women back to the dark age.

You can be a carreer women, love makeup and love fishing, or skydiving, or shooting hoops. But, even there there are differences in how women act. I played on a women's basketball team and its a very different thing than playing on a men's team.

Do I really have to mention every single societal effect that are gender based, to know they exist?

Your right Amy, many TS never really got with the program with male socialisation. Those that transitioned before 30 almost always the case and for those that transitioned later, you've got the total flops as male like me. Needless to be outside the social male order is not a carreer boost as a male...

Quote from: Keira on October 31, 2007, 06:04:31 PM

One I never understand is why when I give example of looking for socialisation cues in women and include the most obvious ones, it just drives some people up the wall, like I had sent women back to the dark age.

You can be a carreer women, love makeup and love fishing, or skydiving, or shooting hoops. But, even there there are differences in how women act. I played on a women's basketball team and its a very different thing than playing on a men's team.

Do I really have to mention every single societal effect that are gender based, to know they exist?

Your right Amy, many TS never really got with the program with male socialisation. Those that transitioned before 30 almost always the case and for those that transitioned later, you've got the total flops as male like me. Needless to be outside the social male order is not a carreer boost as a male...

Yep.

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 09:02:30 AM

Quote from: Alison on October 31, 2007, 06:15:03 AM

Quote from: Rachael on October 31, 2007, 05:57:00 AM
didnt i say this?
R :police:

Unless I misunderstand?

You said this:

Quotethen there are the robotic m2fs with no clue how a female behaves, or thinks, and use male thought patterns in everything, TRUST ME, ive met one, and know of several, its bloomin obvious and scary. Im not one for magic, but people have an essence, a being almost, and you can tell when a person is faking. atleast i can, things they say, how they behave,woman is not woman does.

Couple things that get me --

What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Noone can determine a 'fake' except the person themselves.  They may appear fake you, but again, that is dismissing someones <b> gender identity </b> which to me, really isn't kosher...  If someone says "I am ____"  no matter what they look like how they act, you should take them as how they want to be taken.  Male, Female, both, mix, neither, or something else all together...   This is exactly what is frustrating me lately. 

i did say at first, my beef isnt with someones gender id, but there are some who transition THINKING this is thier gender id, and doing it to get out of a crummy life or something else. But anyway, my point was regarding male thought patterns.
One trans individual was visiting me
and i was getting ready to go out, and asked thier opinion of my outfit, they proceeded to get too close, touch, and grope, and comments of 'oh if i was still a man id bed you now' this person also stood to pee with the door open... masculinity or femininity aside, mens and womens brains operate differently, and this is scarily clear, Andra knows who i mean...R :police:

Hey Rachael  :)

You're one cool girl but you do realise bitching ain't cool, no matter who does it.  Sorry, but there seems to be a bit of *nudge, nudge*, *wink, wink* thing going on, am I correct?  I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

buttercup :)

Quote from: Alison on October 31, 2007, 06:15:03 AM
What do you mean by male thought pattern?  Isn't that just saying the same thing? if you act 'too masculine' you aren't real? 

Ironic that the ENDA threads are all complaining about how removing the "T" from the bill will allow people to be fired for not living up to someone's expectations for masculinity or femininity.

I think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes :(

~Kate~

Its a complex thing here.
Even if gender is innate, I see more as a guideline, and map for learning.
That explain the vast disparity in behavior and expression even in people brought up just about the same.
Meaning, you absorb information differently, use it differently, than a male, because of this born predisposition.
But, what information you are expose to, still has a big influence since you cannot work from nothing.

Also, there is a couple of thing here.

There is unconscious or environmental directed learning (the only on in very young children) , directed learning (somewhat exposes you to specific information) and self-directed learning (you are the one seeking the information according to inner predisposition and prior learning).

So, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have? Do you then become a star female hockey player, reading everything you can about bodychecking, or collect guns, read guns and ammo, and become a swat team sharpshooter. Or, maybe go to MIT in engineerig and build a robot called Robbie soon to lost in space...

I think, we like to simplify things. Because it would be simpler if the reason why women and men are different and where does this difference comes from was clear cut.

As we see with gender variants, and androgynes and the huge variance in TS's and women's gender expression, it cannot be that simple, because there is to much variance to be explained by something simple.

I agree with you Keira.  People are more complex than we think.  There are shades of grey, but some people only like black and white.  Such is life.

Quote from: Keira on October 31, 2007, 11:14:34 PM
I think, we like to simplify things. Because it would be simpler if the reason why women and men are different and where does this difference comes from was clear cut.

As we see with gender variants, and androgynes and the huge variance in TS's and women's gender expression, it cannot be that simple, because there is to much variance to be explained by something simple.

Wow Keira, nicely put. The complexity of life is way too varied to be as predictably categorized as some would have believed. The uniqueness of life and humans should not be underestimated.

Someone should buy you a pizza, or a trophy. Or maybe a pizza trophy.

Marq and Mia

Quote from: Keira on October 31, 2007, 11:14:34 PM
So, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have?

I think these things may influence likes and dislikes, and maybe personality traits to a certain extent (I like pretty girly stuff maybe because it was given to me), but that is not gender 'behaviour' in the real sense. You can't tell who is a girl and who isn't based on whether she plays dolls or robots.
Gender behaviour is how one thinks, communicates, carries oneself, reacts to things, etc. It's male thought patterns vs female thought patterns.
It's more than being a stereotypical 'pretty in pink' girl or not.

Quote from: Keira on October 31, 2007, 11:14:34 PM

Its a complex thing here.
Even if gender is innate, I see more as a guideline, and map for learning.
That explain the vast disparity in behavior and expression even in people brought up just about the same.
Meaning, you absorb information differently, use it differently, than a male, because of this born predisposition.
But, what information you are expose to, still has a big influence since you cannot work from nothing.

Also, there is a couple of thing here.

There is unconscious or environmental directed learning (the only on in very young children) , directed learning (somewhat exposes you to specific information) and self-directed learning (you are the one seeking the information according to inner predisposition and prior learning).

So, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have? Do you then become a star female hockey player, reading everything you can about bodychecking, or collect guns, read guns and ammo, and become a swat team sharpshooter. Or, maybe go to MIT in engineerig and build a robot called Robbie soon to lost in space...

I think, we like to simplify things. Because it would be simpler if the reason why women and men are different and where does this difference comes from was clear cut.

As we see with gender variants, and androgynes and the huge variance in TS's and women's gender expression, it cannot be that simple, because there is to much variance to be explained by something simple.

It is complex. But the innate gender always drowns the socialization. How could a girl (using mtf example) raised as a boy and taught all these things STILL be so female that everyone notices? Socialization does make a superficial difference which is shed like snakeskin once she comes out.

Quote from: buttercup on October 31, 2007, 09:35:25 PM


Hey Rachael  :)

You're one cool girl but you do realise bitching ain't cool, no matter who does it.  Sorry, but there seems to be a bit of *nudge, nudge*, *wink, wink* thing going on, am I correct?  I could be wrong, but that's how I read it.

buttercup :)

I was merely reminding Andra, a friend, of a story i told them a while ago pertaining an individual, said individual is not on these boards....

QuoteSo, if someone dresses you in pink clothes and surrounds you with dolls since you were born, what do you take from this? If someone takes your a girl and your dad puts you on the hockey team at 5, or takes you hunting at 8, or builds robots with you from age 4, what influences does this have?

look at dr moneys work, it did nothing, the child grew up as a boy, no matter how feminine his upbringing, rest in peace. Same with me, i had a reinforced masculine upbringing to 'reinforce' my correction... I was PUNISHED, for any sign of femininity... i was able to socialize with other females almost instantly... 'oh i was socialized x' is a great excuse for why they don't behave like their supposed gender identity. but when the mater is at hand. well, Socialization cant change you. it can either fit, or abrade...
R :police:

One cannot 'learn' to be female. Female is more than walking a certain way, sitting a certain way, talking a certain way, etc.
That's what finishing schools are for.

sactly.... i just wish others could accept this. Ive never once looked at how to behave, or sound, yet i come accross unequivicably as female. This is my proof to myself of who i am. I have somewhere i fit, and im happy. I could not live my life as an actor... thats WHY i transitioned.
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on November 01, 2007, 07:39:39 AM
sactly.... i just wish others could accept this. Ive never once looked at how to behave, or sound, yet i come accross unequivicably as female. This is my proof to myself of who i am. I have somewhere i fit, and im happy. I could not live my life as an actor... thats WHY i transitioned.
R :police:

I would not so much stress how you sound.  Voice is socialized, probably more than you realize.  I worked about a week to get my voice down, but it was more of the effect of using a voice I already used on certain occasions consistently.  It wasn't acting, it was literally just taking certian mental blocks down.

But many people have to work on their voice for a great deal of time for good reason. 

But the truth is one has to have a naturally good voice to begin with, and as much as it pains me to say this, not everybody is that blessed. 

Quote from: Keira on October 31, 2007, 02:54:52 PM
But, I was a failed male. I was actually diagnosed as having no real defined adult socialised identity. Quite rare. Because I didn't want at all to be a male and couldn't be female, I was nothing!! Its hard to go through life not knowing where you stand on anything.

You sound a lot like me, Keira.

Quote from: Kate on October 31, 2007, 09:50:37 PM
I think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes :(

You have that right, Kate.

Money's case doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all!!

Rachael, Please read what I'm saying, good grief!!!
You keep on spitting out responses which reflect your bias
instead of as reply to what I just said.

If gender is innate, which is probably more map for future learning of social cues. That's why there's such a disparity in response in women, TS, gender variants, androgyne and men

The person in Money's case absorbed the social cues with a male map and that's why it failed.

Quote from: Amy T. on November 01, 2007, 09:38:14 AM

Quote from: Rachael on November 01, 2007, 07:39:39 AM
sactly.... i just wish others could accept this. Ive never once looked at how to behave, or sound, yet i come accross unequivicably as female. This is my proof to myself of who i am. I have somewhere i fit, and im happy. I could not live my life as an actor... thats WHY i transitioned.
R :police:

I would not so much stress how you sound.  Voice is socialized, probably more than you realize.  I worked about a week to get my voice down, but it was more of the effect of using a voice I already used on certain occasions consistently.  It wasn't acting, it was literally just taking certian mental blocks down.

But many people have to work on their voice for a great deal of time for good reason. 

But the truth is one has to have a naturally good voice to begin with, and as much as it pains me to say this, not everybody is that blessed. 

Things such as voice and walking depend a lot on physical makeup. It really is the luck of the draw. Those who have more vocal talent will have it easier. And you're right, it depends a lot on the voice puberty 'gifted' you with.

Posted on: November 01, 2007, 12:43:22 PM

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Quote from: Keira on November 01, 2007, 11:42:17 AM
The person in Money's case absorbed the social cues with a male map and that's why it failed.

Male map?

Quote from: Keira on November 01, 2007, 11:42:17 AM
Money's case doesn't contradict what I'm saying at all!!

Rachael, Please read what I'm saying, good grief!!!
You keep on spitting out responses which reflect your bias
instead of as reply to what I just said.

If gender is innate, which is probably more map for future learning of social cues. That's why there's such a disparity in response in women, TS, gender variants, androgyne and men

The person in Money's case absorbed the social cues with a male map and that's why it failed.

the person in moneys case was a BOY. who lost his penis in a circumcision accident which prompted money's experiment. they absorbed male social clues because they WERE male, not by any bias, said boy was told he was a girl, to which he consistently replied 'no im not' the entire case has been misrepresented, plagorised by money himself, and hurt thousands.
Gender is less of a map, and more of a set of codes, that unlock certain doors, you can only learn something, if you have the inate ability, this is why some ts women (while its on topic) instantly socialise as females, because thier coding allows for it, and found socialisation with males, distressing, or impossible. its the old addage of men saying women are 'complicated' and vice versa. I belive very strongly in brainsex as the most important thing in somones body. After the brain, the body is secondery to a persons gender identity. Nobody can change the brains sex, thus money's work, of nurture over nature failed. simply because gender is a hardwriten template.
Kiera: dont get wound up please, 'my bias' is called my opinion, its a bit like yours, only evidently you dont agree. ;)
R :police:

Quote from: Keira on November 01, 2007, 11:42:17 AM
If gender is innate, which is probably more map for future learning of social cues. That's why there's such a disparity in response in women, TS, gender variants, androgyne and men

Part of this arguement is from mixing the concepts of "gender identity" and "gender roles."  Unfortunately most psychologists define "gender identity" to mean basically the same as gender roles.  It's not.  "Gender identity" is the self-knowledge of whether you are male or female.  But psychologists generally explain it in terms of how you are socialized to live out your gender roles.  Newer research in neuro-chemistry is continuing to build a strong case against this explanation.  Today, "gender identity" is looking more and more like an innate, instinctive thing, whereas gender socialization only affects how we live out our gender roles.

Rachael, you are right.  Gender identity is innate.

Keira, you are right.  Gender behavior is learned.

Quote from: Nero on November 01, 2007, 11:44:33 AM
Male map?

The idea that related bits of knowledge are organized as maps.  Therefore there is a map that contains what we believe about males and a map that contains what we believe about females.

Actually, that the crux of it.

Gender Identity impacts processing of information and learning thus
how you can integrate or even accept gender behavior. Learning is a
feedback loop, if gender identity impacts information processing (which I believe
it does) it is a kind of sifter for information, well
the same information won't produce the same results in male and females.
And like all feedback loop, past learning impacts future learning, so it is reinforcing
(which adds to the complexity of the socialisation process).

That explain the Money case completely.

In spite of being exposed to a female upbriging, the mapping was male and the so the resulting behavior and acceptance of female socialisation completely failed.

The result is actually to get a masculine female in spite of being exposed to a supposedly female upbriging. The only things that really took were male socialisation cues in surrounding environment.

Why do you think a young TS is able to instantly socialise, there's no such thing. Its because they were actually partially socialised as female inspite of their upgriging. Even someone brought up male will be surrounded by female socialisation clues, though you don't get the full picture obviously. That's why the initial behavior at transition is a bit stilted.

Everything we do is a mixture of nature and nurture.

im actually against your theory kiera, i was raised with reinforced masculine thingys, and was actively punished for feminine behaviour as the doctors told my parents to do. (genetal correction at birth to male) i was at an all boys school from 2-18, and have very little female contact, yet ariving at university, i instantly socialised as female...
R :police:

Racheal, your own past messages seems to go counter to the instant socialisation claim.

And also, what on earth do you mean!! I'm in university and work, have female friends, go clubbing, and everything and nobody knows.

Is that instant socialisation? Did I know everything that needs to be learned? If I see some new thing women do in a new setting I've never been in, do I tune out any new information I come about because I'm complete now?

Maybe we should call it socialised enough to get by in the first days, then a quick reinforcement in the following days. But, socialisation is an ongoing process. I'm sure I've done some faux-pas that got some of my friend scratching their heads, especially in the beginning.

The issue I'm still having with this thread is there is a feeling of "if you don't convince ME that you are ______ I will think you're just faking."

If someone transitions easier then someone else?  great, good for them, but it doesn't make the other person any less valid.  Comments like "you can just -tell- when someone doesn't have *it*" Have the aire of eminence to them.

Why can't we just unequivocally accept each other? 

as Kate said:

QuoteI think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes :(

Can't we all just get along?   :laugh:

QuoteCan't we all just get along?

Because gender or sex identity is not a strong trait to base friendship on.

There is such a wide range of possible expression within each gender... why limit ourselves to 1950s TV stereotypes of gender?

I have always been the person I am, regardless of which gender anyone thought I was. As others have posted, I also failed miserably at being "male", and in fact, couldn't care less... I never bothered to try.

zythyra

Quotefailed miserably at being "male", and in fact, couldn't care less... I never bothered to try.

I did not fail I just redefined it. Just as I am redefining the female. Each person needs to be themselves regardless of the definitions society gives.

Quote from: Keira on November 01, 2007, 04:36:33 PM

Racheal, your own past messages seems to go counter to the instant socialisation claim.

And also, what on earth do you mean!! I'm in university and work, have female friends, go clubbing, and everything and nobody knows.

Is that instant socialisation? Did I know everything that needs to be learned? If I see some new thing women do in a new setting I've never been in, do I tune out any new information I come about because I'm complete now?

Maybe we should call it socialised enough to get by in the first days, then a quick reinforcement in the following days. But, socialisation is an ongoing process. I'm sure I've done some faux-pas that got some of my friend scratching their heads, especially in the beginning.

uh, no, i wasnt suggesting it was instant, dispite my useless wording, i meant that my baseline programming was coded to female socialisation, so i picked it up quite quickly once i actually began to meet other females....
what do i mean?  dont treat me like i am uttering maddness, please learn to read as well as club and go out...
i mean somehow, my manerisms are entirely natural now, my voice sound, and patterns are female, my behaviour, way i interact socially, etc, are all female, i was trying to load OSX on a pc, and finally found out that windows existed, and it fits.... (rubbish analogy, please shoot me) things just started to go right, ok, you might be stealth, or not out, i dont really care, what your expeiences are impart in no way on mine, let me give my opinion or experiences without jumping in to counteract me, its getting annoying haveing a shaddow trying to outdo me at every corner...
R :police:

Quote from: Alison on November 01, 2007, 04:46:11 PM
The issue I'm still having with this thread is there is a feeling of "if you don't convince ME that you are ______ I will think you're just faking."

If someone transitions easier then someone else?  great, good for them, but it doesn't make the other person any less valid.  Comments like "you can just -tell- when someone doesn't have *it*" Have the aire of eminence to them.

Why can't we just unequivocally accept each other? 

as Kate said:

QuoteI think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes :(

Can't we all just get along?   :laugh:

I accept everyone. The issue I and others like me have is that when people claim that gender behaviour is socialization, that dismisses the experiences of others to whom it came naturally.
Some of us suffered horribly due to inability to 'learn' our birth sex. All the learning and socialization in the world could not help some of us who behaved like our target sex from birth.
Claiming it's 'learned' is like a slap in the face.

Quote
I accept everyone. The issue I and others like me have is that when people claim that gender behaviour is socialization, that dismisses the experiences of others to whom it came naturally.
Some of us suffered horribly due to inability to 'learn' our birth sex. All the learning and socialization in the world could not help some of us who behaved like our target sex from birth.
Claiming it's 'learned' is like a slap in the face.

Nero - I wasn't intending you slap you (or anyone else) in the face..  :icon_hug:

I think we might be using different definitions of the word 'natural'

-----
Now this argument is difficult to word for me because I really don't think behaviors can be gendered, but I concede that most people do, or else gender stereotypes wouldn't exist.

So if this is hard to read or you don't understand let me know and I'll try to reword it.
-----

I agree that "behaving like your gender role" is natural in that thats what gender your (soul, spirit, brain whatever you wish) was from day 1.  So when you see examples of other people behaving like [your preferred gender role] you consciously -- or more then likely subconsciously, take note -- (JUST like every cisgendered person out there.)

However I don't think that certain behaviors that are attributed to [your gender roles] were programmed into you from day 1 -- they were learned.  Just like you learned to walk, and ride a bike.  Now -- more then likely you have been LEARNING to act like [your gender roles] since birth.  I never -ever- said you started learning at transition. 

My saying that you learned to walk isn't a slap in the face, neither is my saying you learned other behaviors.

But let me reiterate -- feeling like you are [your gender] is NOT learned -- it just IS...   It's the behaviors that are learned. 

So, in other words, acting like yourself DID come naturally, of course it did... you've been working on it since you were born :)

Alison,
That's exactly what I'm trying to say... Seemingly not very well...

Your innate gender makes you pay less or not attention to social cues of your birth sex directed at you since day one.

Depending how much exposure you had to your target gender cues, you'll be socialised (gender reflected in gender behavior) to varying degree in that target gender.

For a FTM, You're exposure may be totally external seeing guys do things, or you may be a tomboy and be one of the guys which brings a better socialisation.

If a FTM has just about no view of the male world because of the context of upbriging, then I'd assume they'd make very poor females (since they don't absorb the information on how to be female) and would have poor social skills in general (since male skills would also be lacking).

Same thing, in the opposite direction for MTF. If you had almost no contacts with girls from birth, then you may get female socialisation cues from your mother, but this is a limited view and its also a socialisation from a prior generation than your own.


I wonder if that explains why many older TS, socialised in a time of very separated social gender roles generally have more problems breaking away from male socialisation. I see this all the times in support groups. I also see clearly when socialisation came from external vision only. Often they've got a lot of problems integrating themselves with other females at a closer level. They do have female acquaintances, but not many close friends. That's also some experience I learned by listening in support groups.

Quote from: Alison on November 02, 2007, 01:17:27 AM

Quote
I accept everyone. The issue I and others like me have is that when people claim that gender behaviour is socialization, that dismisses the experiences of others to whom it came naturally.
Some of us suffered horribly due to inability to 'learn' our birth sex. All the learning and socialization in the world could not help some of us who behaved like our target sex from birth.
Claiming it's 'learned' is like a slap in the face.

Nero - I wasn't intending you slap you (or anyone else) in the face..  :icon_hug:

I think we might be using different definitions of the word 'natural'

-----
Now this argument is difficult to word for me because I really don't think behaviors can be gendered, but I concede that most people do, or else gender stereotypes wouldn't exist.

So if this is hard to read or you don't understand let me know and I'll try to reword it.
-----

I agree that "behaving like your gender role" is natural in that thats what gender your (soul, spirit, brain whatever you wish) was from day 1.  So when you see examples of other people behaving like [your preferred gender role] you consciously -- or more then likely subconsciously, take note -- (JUST like every cisgendered person out there.)

However I don't think that certain behaviors that are attributed to [your gender roles] were programmed into you from day 1 -- they were learned.  Just like you learned to walk, and ride a bike.  Now -- more then likely you have been LEARNING to act like [your gender roles] since birth.  I never -ever- said you started learning at transition. 

My saying that you learned to walk isn't a slap in the face, neither is my saying you learned other behaviors.

But let me reiterate -- feeling like you are [your gender] is NOT learned -- it just IS...   It's the behaviors that are learned. 

So, in other words, acting like yourself DID come naturally, of course it did... you've been working on it since you were born :)

Quote from: Keira on November 02, 2007, 02:05:34 AM
Alison,
That's exactly what I'm trying to say... Seemingly not very well...

Your innate gender makes you pay less or not attention to social cues of your birth sex directed at you since day one.

Depending how much exposure you had to your target gender cues, you'll be socialised (gender reflected in gender behavior) to varying degree in that target gender.

For a FTM, You're exposure may be totally external seeing guys do things, or you may be a tomboy and be one of the guys which brings a better socialisation.

If a FTM has just about no view of the male world because of the context of upbriging, then I'd assume they'd make very poor females (since they don't absorb the information on how to be female) and would have poor social skills in general (since male skills would also be lacking).

Same thing, in the opposite direction for MTF. If you had almost no contacts with girls from birth, then you may get female socialisation cues from your mother, but this is a limited view and its also a socialisation from a prior generation than your own.


I wonder if that explains why many older TS, socialised in a time of very separated social gender roles generally have more problems breaking away from male socialisation. I see this all the times in support groups. I also see clearly when socialisation came from external vision only. Often they've got a lot of problems integrating themselves with other females at a closer level. They do have female acquaintances, but not many close friends. That's also some experience I learned by listening in support groups.

Thanks guys. Maybe we were all traveling the same path, unseen by me. :laugh:

Keira, I think I may be starting to get what you're saying.
I don't know. I never had any friends as a child, just a best guy friend here and there.

Quote from: Rachael on November 01, 2007, 03:38:58 PM
im actually against your theory kiera, i was raised with reinforced masculine thingys, and was actively punished for feminine behaviour as the doctors told my parents to do. (genetal correction at birth to male) i was at an all boys school from 2-18, and have very little female contact, yet ariving at university, i instantly socialised as female...
R :police:

Believe it or not, punishment can reinforce the behavior being punished.  It is getting attention, after all, and that is preferable to being ignored.

worked dinit? im not complaining  ::)
R :police:

             I recently had a life experience that reinforced my belief that more of our behavior than we realize comes from within as opposed to being learned.

             I recently met my older sister for the first time. When my mother was a teen she gave her up for adoption when she was born. I had no idea I had another sister when she found me and called. Sadly my mother passed away years ago and never had contact with my sister after giving her up.

             My new sister has the same mannerisms as my mother, she walks like her and sounds like her and is similar in so many ways. We share many traits and had an instant bond the moment we met. We are born with so very much more than we are aware of. Do you know my sister and I have the same exact car, the same year and the same color?



beth

 Re: Does gender behaviour come naturally? 

most of it is innate; some of it is learnt.  i wholeheartedly concord with beth on this one.

But what does innate mean in this case? How does innate knows where the person is and account for variability. Its too broad a term.

It must be defined further.

That's why I was talking about the learning maps being innate and related to gender (and sex) and then it takes whatever its in the current society that corresponds to it and integrates it into behavior.

There are instinctual responses like reproduction, and some sexual behaviors are seemingly plugged in. like mounting in males. But the set of such behaviors in generally very precise and doesn't vary much.

Since the brain is a neural network, the description I but forth
makes the most sense.

The do neural pathways just take everything in and devellop totally environmentally or there's a mapping between external inputs and how they're translated into the brain.

That doesn't preclude siblings of same sex having similar mappings, which would explain the great ressemblances in resulting actions. Even seperated, the way the information was absorbed and built upon was similar.

But, if that was so easy, they'd be conclusive proof, but again, there's just hints. Human behavior is very very complex.

its funny, when i still knew my family, my sister was more of a boy than i ever was! i blame my parents genes.... how could both kids get so mixed? I belive gender behavior, is just a part of personality, my sister deffinately isnt trans, shes just butch. and fairly happy with that. she is NO less female, with the butchness however, nobody would mistake her behavior for anyhting but a butch girl.  behavior mapping isnt always linked to gender, but it sure helps.
R :police:

Quote from: Keira on November 03, 2007, 01:26:27 AM

But what does innate mean in this case? How does innate knows where the person is and account for variability. Its too broad a term.

It must be defined further.

That's why I was talking about the learning maps being innate and related to gender (and sex) and then it takes whatever its in the current society that corresponds to it and integrates it into behavior.

There are instinctual responses like reproduction, and some sexual behaviors are seemingly plugged in. like mounting in males. But the set of such behaviors in generally very precise and doesn't vary much.

Since the brain is a neural network, the description I but forth
makes the most sense.

The do neural pathways just take everything in and devellop totally environmentally or there's a mapping between external inputs and how they're translated into the brain.

That doesn't preclude siblings of same sex having similar mappings, which would explain the great ressemblances in resulting actions. Even seperated, the way the information was absorbed and built upon was similar.

But, if that was so easy, they'd be conclusive proof, but again, there's just hints. Human behavior is very very complex.

Well, the 'mapping' thing is a good theory, and may be part of it. But I really believe the only 'learned' stuff is social cues and the like. The superficial stuff - like 'boys don't do X, girls don't do X'. I'm accustomed to having a lot of freedom and not being bound by that stuff. For instance, I have to learn when it's not acceptable to come on to random guys. lol

Nero, the mapping thing goes well beyond social cues, that's why maybe everybody feel its innate, if everything processed is mapped by gender into the brain. Everything about you, even how you feel about different things, which is not reflected directly in society, will be influenced.

For example, women usually are more liberal on social issues than men. Women tend to be more liberal than men as a group and is reflected in almost all their actions. This goes way beyond social clues.

I think gender creates a learning matrix that influences how personality is formed. Actiion and behavior is just a small part of the whole.

Quote from: Keira on November 03, 2007, 05:50:42 PM
For example, women usually are more liberal on social issues than men. Women tend to be more liberal than men as a group and is reflected in almost all their actions.

Hmm That's really interesting. Never thought about that before. Does seem to be true. Any theories as to why that is?

Hmmm, go off for a couple of months and find web discussions everywhere about innate qualities. Yet, none of the discussions are about height, weight, hair color, eye color, bone structure or even neural patterning.

And, lo, there are all kinds of discussions that give someone a chance to say how natural this all comes to her or him. And I don't doubt that.

I think that some of the conditioning vs innate debate is a matter of misunderstanding each other.

Ummm, female-brained infant in male body. Early childhood education, still, for the most part handled by women. Child sees certain similarities, until she is informed later that she is not who she imagined. In the meantime has tried to emulate who she thinks is like her. Gets "female" conditioning and then often discovers that those patterns are not acceptable,

She makes adjustments. Builds another conditioning layer over the first. But, still manages to gom up that second layer as some things are just too strongly identified with to discontinue. The pressure on her is, maybe, less strong than certain perks for behaving how she behaves.

Voila, discovers TS and transitions and finds it rather facile to "drop the layers." Returns to earlier model and adds software to that to be in an adult mode.

Another girl might have a different experience if she has different parents, teachers, mentors, etc.

Social behavior is about as close to entirely learned as anything we do. We have a built in necessity to relate to one another and to be social. Our weaning time is much too long for us to be anything but social creatures if the species is to survive.

Babies and adults thrive in relationship and often babies die simply from a lack of relationship: "failure to thrive." And adults develop all sorts of nasty personality and mood disorders from lack of relationship and connection.

Innate? Well, that we are social is innate. The forms that takes are basically acculturated.

One woman's opinion.

Hi Beth

QuoteMy new sister has the same mannerisms as my mother, she walks like her and sounds like her and is similar in so many ways. We share many traits and had an instant bond the moment we met. We are born with so very much more than we are aware of. Do you know my sister and I have the same exact car, the same year and the same color?

I can quite identify with this. I was raised by my mom and my sister and I were like twins except we were 4 years apart growing up on the homestead. We simply just ran together, as I did with another girlfriend, Helen, we also kind of grew up together, a five year relationship until her folks  and her just simply disappeared and I never saw my pal again.

I was quite surprised as to how many mannerisms one either remembers from the subconscious mind and from learned behavior as well once one comes out full time.

Cindy     

i think its safe to say women are individuals, and not scared to be within a social group, men tend to say what they think the group wants to hear, women will make thier view heard, while listening to the others, and there is often more debate and reasoning. even the debate isnt argument, or view forcing, more often than not, its explaining your view, so the others can understand.
Women have more social skills imo :P
R :police: