Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The word "transition" implies changing state -- there's movement from one state of being to another, and that liminal space in between is what's actually transitory.  So, where do you all weigh in on this?  How do you know it's actually over?

I think that's different for every individual.

I think the universal answer for everyone is - when you are happy in your own body and with your own social identity.

I voted "never" but I haven't lived long enough to really know yet ;D  I have been out and on HRT for years and had my Orchi too and am gradually coming around to the place where this is just life and being trans in transition is, fortunately, not 24/7 thinking anymore.  I know some folks who no longer consider themselves trans but simply another man or woman with a private history after transition.

I would hope that personal growth and development continue as long as possible in anyones life.  Gender identity is intrinsic for me but, as a non binary person, being accustomed and comfortable with gendered roles and cultural expectations is another story.

I like to push open the envelop on what is possible and can imagine a time where our culture matures about all things now too queer to handle, like sex. ;D

I think it's different for every individual, but I think it's over when you feel comfortable and happy with yourself. Just don't mind about what others think or say, and you'll find that 90% of your worries about how you look will disappear. Love who you are and be true to yourself. I currently am dealing with trying not to worry about others, it's not easy, but I think I am doing some progress, being at, maybe 65% of not giving a **ap. I am loving discovering myself.

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It pretty much feels over for me, social & legal part is done. Bottom surgery is left so I guess that will be my end but I already feel like I'm finished in a way because I don't really deal with anything trans wise in my life anymore. It rarely comes up nowadays and sometimes I even forget I transitioned, its a really weird feeling of normalcy. Weird in the sense that like when I realize what I've been through to get here, it feels so surreal. Even my early transition photos feel foreign to me cause it was so long ago and I looked so different. I was in transition for such a long time so I guess its not that much of a surprise.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 23, 2016, 11:26:26 PM
The word "transition" implies changing state -- there's movement from one state of being to another, and that liminal space in between is what's actually transitory.  So, where do you all weigh in on this?  How do you know it's actually over?

I agree with others... my personal belief is that it ends when one has a sense that major transitional tasks have been completed. I think only the person going through transition can even come close to estimating when transition ends, much less be precise about it.

*
Coming from the old days through Stanford and Janus, ultimate transition ended when the person completed their course - meaning completed genital surgery to meet the anatomical definition of female within the possibilities of contemporary medical science.

Such actions as electrolysis, FFS, thyroid shave were defined as preliminary and culminated at GCS / SRS (aka, 'bottom surgery').

Both Stanford and Janus could at least unofficially acknowledge that while perhaps 100% of all participants desired 'bottom surgery' and that was their universal goal, only 25% to 30% of all enrollees went as far as 'bottom surgery' for any number of reasons.  Those who de-transitioned went back to what they were in their 'before', namely 'male'.  Those who did not go as far as 'bottom surgery' could still be medically, legally, socially, psychologically termed 'female'; they continued living and presenting as female.  Those 'not complete' patients had to deal with their atomic anomaly in their own way.

One of Stanford's direct requirements in their 1977 guidelines was the provision that the individual be perceived and accepted as a woman, not as a transsexual, as a pre-requisite to 'bottom surgery'.

Of course, one could meet all the paper requirements but fall short financially.  They presented and were acknowledged as female by their society's circles.

This all is not to say that doctors know for themselves.  I had been post-op and full-time nearly 30 years when I landed with a new endocrinologist.  She told me that I am her first (and still only) trans patient.  My initial identification in my medical file from her reports me as 'male'.  At first I kinda shrugged my shoulders.  After a few visits, I asked her why she listed me as 'male' when in fact I had been female all those years before I was her patient.  She had no answer or objection; she corrected my identification to female.  She wrote a letter to Social Security Administration that was awkward as well; but hey, it did the job for SSA, that was all that mattered to me, so I had no complaints.

Allow me to share that I participate in '3rd Space' meetings at one trans group.  These members do not concern themselves with any obligation to 'pass' as female any further than whatever steps they have chosen, or maybe none at all.  They extend that envelope and definition.

Aside from the definitions in the legal books, the answer depends upon who you ask and what is their definition of when they define transition as complete.

*

Just to weigh in on my own question,

I think where we want to go, and where we eventually end up, actually defines the end of transition, because sometimes the destination changes along the way.  To me, transition is movement, and when we stop moving -- when we stop wanting to move -- we are, de facto, at the end of the journey.  Perhaps a new journey then begins, and like Tessa suggest, perhaps we're always in one transition or another, and perhaps we need to be just to stay alive and not stagnate (which is distinctly different from "treading water," which still requires movement).

I kind of deliberately made the poll such that my own answer wasn't there -- I do think the end is more subtle than what we typically think of when starting the journey.  For me, transition ended when I finished the things I needed to be gendered female in all spheres of my life.  Which, ironically, wasn't exactly "happy and comfortable" with my body and social role, though that comes close.  I mean, I certainly wasn't unhappy, but I had a lot of mixed emotions about it.

If there's a single moment when I think my transition finally ended, it was when I first had sex with a man post-op -- not only was I no longer in recovery from the operation, I was now actively engaged with the word in this respect.  It was just a one-night stand, a cute guy I picked up at the bar.  I stayed "mum" on my medical history.  It was a mind-blowing experience, full of contradictions -- like how he could be so gentle and so violent at the same time, how I could be so totally right in my own body and yet a fumbling virgin at the same time.  And so forth.

The morning after, I was sore and achey deep inside.  "Is this how it feels for all the other women in the world?"  Maybe, perhaps, for some.  I felt like I was walking around that part of myself, a bow-legged cowgirl, though the mirror told me I was walking normally, just like any other day.  But it was at this point that I realized I didn't have to "do" anything else, that I had "arrived," and yet despite my intense joy I was also anxious, and yearning, and even a bit scared, because now I knew I wanted more, and there was my whole life in front of me, waiting for me to step into it and run like the wind. 

Except the first "geographic" feature of this internal landscape was a cliff, and I was at the precipice, like The Fool in those old Tarot cards, and the next step was actually going to be a leap of faith.  Before I could run, I would have to fly.  Happy and comfortable?  Yes, but also terrified and uncomfortable as all get out.  But I realized, it was this cliff I had always been heading towards, even if I wasn't always aware of it.

For me, transition will "end" when I don't have to think about transition anymore.  When I can simply live my life as a woman in all aspects of my life - both physically and socially, then I will consider it "done." 

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 24, 2016, 10:46:49 AM
For me, transition will "end" when I don't have to think about transition anymore.  When I can simply live my life as a woman in all aspects of my life - both physically and socially, then I will consider it "done."

So did you check the "No More Coming Out" choice?

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 25, 2016, 12:54:37 AM
So did you check the "No More Coming Out" choice?

No.  Besides, how is "After Fully Coming Out" different from "No More Coming Out"?  They seem like the same thing to me.

Neeevveeerrr... Even when I'm "finished", I'm sure that modern technology will come up with new surgeries and other procedures. Think about all of the things which are impossible with current technologies, and then imagine them being resolved.

Transition ends when you personally decide it ends. I think everyone considers a successful transition differently.

I'd argue life ends when one ceases to grow and evolve. 

It seem that transition an ongoing process that continues throughout life.  While specific milestones might be achieved in the process, it's a lifelong evolution that never really comes to completion.

Quote from: diana-trans on October 24, 2016, 02:19:47 AM
I think it's different for every individual, but I think it's over when you feel comfortable and happy with yourself. Just don't mind about what others think or say, and you'll find that 90% of your worries about how you look will disappear. Love who you are and be true to yourself. I currently am dealing with trying not to worry about others, it's not easy, but I think I am doing some progress, being at, maybe 65% of not giving a **ap. I am loving discovering myself.

Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk

Sorry to slow up the discussion.

However, I want to welcome diana-trans. She joined us a while ago but may not have gotten an official welcome.

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Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.

With warmth,

Joanna


In answer to the question, I think when you get to a point of not really thinking about it. Even if changes are still occurring. Acceptance with contentedness?

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 25, 2016, 01:15:57 AM
No.  Besides, how is "After Fully Coming Out" different from "No More Coming Out"?  They seem like the same thing to me.

When you're simply living your life as a woman in all respects, physically and socially, "coming out" as trans can certainly get you thinking about it again. 

I can't answer, because the answer is none of the above: It ends when you're comfortable with your body and lifestyle.  This is something that people who study this professionally all seem to agree on.

As of this point, I expect I'll be done when I look in the mirror, naked, and see a pretty girl.  The rest, like being full-time, is just fluff to me.  I don't have strong enough dysphoria for being in boy-mode that I feel the need to present as female with people who aren't comfortable with it, nor do I really care what I'm presenting as while working.

To me, transition ends when you have accomplished all the changes you wish to make.  For some people, that may happen quickly; for others, it may never happen.

To me I think it ends when all the thoughts of trans this and that have simply faded out of your minds, you no longer think about it, it no longer stresses us. Weither we pass or not, we are happy within ourselves, that is when transition is over.
I know alot will never reach the stage of not thinking about it, it always nagging at the back of our minds :/
I am only 3 months in to HRT, so I have a way to go yet, but I hope I get ther one day, And I hope the rest of you do too :)

To anyone else I would echo the end is when you are happy wherever that may be.

For myself SRS is definitely my finish line.

All historic friends and family all know I've changed with a massive increase in love (not even a question of acceptance they simply love me and I love them too but they hated him and with good reason)
New friends just know me as Jerrica and my gender is never questioned (I even had doubts about my new friend questioning or knowing until she referred to periods during our chat and her saying "you know what I mean" to which I smiled and agreed without a thought)
Strangers also always just see me which is great because I am just me

To the world I already am just another woman; nothing remarkable just another regular woman.

I am a normal woman and feel as such as long as I am at least wearing a pair of knickers but.....

I cannot let anyone see me naked as I feel ashamed and disfigured about my genitalia.
Every time I have to strip for my shower or even go to the loo I sigh at that which makes me different even right now thinking about it.

The thought that it not only marks me as different but the knowledge that my genitals can actually kill me if my meds were stopped has been terrifying at times especially when I had delays getting a new batch. I actually had to consider a lemming impression or self surgery and nobody should ever have to think about such things as being their only 2 choices if something happens.

After SRS I can then only die like any other woman and I like that a lot.

The last piece of him to be removed and the last piece of me to be fixed.

Being able to see myself naked without experiencing revulsion, the knowledge that I am safe from T poisoning, the freedom to not fear a wardrobe malfunction while swimming or wearing tight clothing and finally for the freedom to have my ultimate treat to go for a spa day to get a top to toe massage.

As for future relationships and sex I'll think about them when I grow up and worry about it like any other girl.
Sure I can't have any more kids and I'll have a history (most of which I can't remember anyway) but so do many women.

So yeah defo SRS for the end of this transition.

As for growing up from girl to woman I'm sure that'll have plenty of fun to be discovered and it's share of heartaches but such is life for all women.

I think it is different for everyone. For me transition ends 11/29/2016 that's my SRS date. I will be a woman mentally and physically.

I will continue to try to improve my voice and remove a few more facial hairs but I know cis women who do these things so I just consider these things ongoing personal maintenance.

The SRS will finally make me feel complete and comfortable with my body.

Right now every morning I get out of the shower and am reminded that things just are not right. In a few more days that reminder will be gone and instead of living to transition I can just start living.

Fore me when I had my SRS and FFS, I am physically done. Mentally/spiritually/socially is another transition, a lifelong one I think.

I would say it depends for each of us. Each of defines it differently. My social transition was complete when I went full time, but the physical transition with my SRS. However, I still have hair removal to get done on my face. Then again so do many CIS woman too so I suppose I don't really need to count the remains facial hair towards work in relation to my transition, but jut life. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: 2cherry on November 18, 2016, 01:26:40 PMFore me when I had my SRS and FFS, I am physically done. Mentally/spiritually/socially is another transition, a lifelong one I think.

Mental, spiritual, social... for me it was several years, but no more than five.  A dear friend of mine called this "transsexing," when we've become so immersed in a woman's life that we forget... or rather, remember that we were truly always female, even if no one (not even ourselves) realized it at the time. 

According to her, and I tend to agree, this latter kind of transition depends on non-disclosure.  Disclosure implies that we have to ask for female gendering, even after all the physical work is done, and as such it isn't freely and automatically given as it is for all other women.  It's like the difference between the shallow end and the deep end of the pool -- it's still water, but the immersion of the deep end proves beyond a doubt that we can swim.

And then we can leave the pool entirely and head out to the ocean.

Considering that eight months ago all I had going for me was crossdressing and a lifetime of prayers and realization I was different, I already feel I have made the most important transition. That of coming out to my family and reconciling my gender situation in my mind. When offered the opportunity for HRT I did not hesitate for one second. My brain is now functioning as it was created all those years ago.

My answer wasn't in the poll. I think it ends the day I say it does. I hope it ends the day I say it does.

Honestly?  Never.  I think I'll still be figuring myself out, making adjustments, completing mid-course corrections until the day I die.

It sure isn't being out to everyone (did that) or doing the name change (in progress).  Those are major steps along the way, but they certainly aren't the end.  SRS?  FFS? Well, we see people here who did those years ago, and are looking at revisions or further work to help with their issues.  So those may not be it.

Life is change.  We are in a state of transition from birth to death.  The only difference is that we have decided to take the helm and direct our transition.

I agree..you are finished transitioning when you are personally comfortable with yourself.

I don't have to transition physically, since I'm only partially transmale, only readjusting my lifestyle and self description to reflect new comprehension of my nature.

I only tell people on a need-to-know basis..people with whom I interact a great deal, and only if those people are trying to pressure me into acting more female, which is why I told my immediate family as soon as I knew, three years ago.

Quote from: jentay1367 on November 18, 2016, 09:24:14 PM
My answer wasn't in the poll. I think it ends the day I say it does. I hope it ends the day I say it does.

And what do think will lead you to say that it's over and done with?

Quote from: Michelle_P on November 19, 2016, 12:34:44 AM
Honestly?  Never.  I think I'll still be figuring myself out, making adjustments, completing mid-course corrections until the day I die.

It sure isn't being out to everyone (did that) or doing the name change (in progress).  Those are major steps along the way, but they certainly aren't the end.  SRS?  FFS? Well, we see people here who did those years ago, and are looking at revisions or further work to help with their issues.  So those may not be it.

Life is change.  We are in a state of transition from birth to death.  The only difference is that we have decided to take the helm and direct our transition.

Yes, sure, everyone in the world is in transition from birth until death, and we call this "life."

But I think it's pretty clear that the context here is gender transition.  We transition from being gendered in one way to being gendered in another.  That's the work most of are trying to accomplish, if we haven't already.

In this context, the only way transition lasts forever is if we never anticipate granting ourselves the full gendering we deserve.

QuoteQuote from: jentay1367 on Yesterday at 09:24:14 pm

    My answer wasn't in the poll. I think it ends the day I say it does. I hope it ends the day I say it does.


And what do think will lead you to say that it's over and done with?

I've no idea. I hope I just know when I know. I don't want to be one of those people that is so hypercritical of the mirror and themselves that they can never leave well enough alone and finally.....  just be happy with who they are.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on November 19, 2016, 08:54:00 AM
But I think it's pretty clear that the context here is gender transition.  We transition from being gendered in one way to being gendered in another.  That's the work most of are trying to accomplish, if we haven't already.

In this context, the only way transition lasts forever is if we never anticipate granting ourselves the full gendering we deserve.

OK, being gendered correctly by others would mark the end of a social transition.  In detail I would describe that as the point at which others encountering us generally gender us correctly based on our gender presentation, that is, the package of physical appearance, dress, and behavior.  The goal is to avoid triggering transphobic persons who might act against me, and socially integrate well with others of my identified gender.

I finished my internal transition when I granted myself the full gendering I deserve a while ago.  I now know who I am, and am happy within myself.  Now, that doesn't mean I don't want additional things, like SRS, FFS, or even that tracheal shave.  These address social dysphoria.  Those are for the social transition.

My legal transition is well underway, with medical letters and a nice stack of petition paperwork finally stamped, signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters. I just hope the judge doesn't want to read any poetry to me.

The medical transition is still in early stages, with HRT, and discussions of possible surgeries going forward.  The surgeries will happen.  Whether they happen through my HMO, or with recent exogenous changes, involve a nice vacation overseas, remains to be seen.  Of the various procedures I am contemplating, some, such as gender reassignment surgery, are for myself, as a reassuring boost for my internal self-image and a way to make my clothing fit better.  Others, like that tracheal shave and FFS, are to aid in providing gender clues for my social transition.  These would not be necessary in a society that readily accepts a third sex, trans folks, or however one might express it.

There are many transitions I move through as part of life.  Life itself is a transition.  It's part of being a person.  We aren't rigid, immutable objects.  We change, and hopefully, we grow.

Transitionally yours
Michelle  ;D

I couldn't quite find an option on the poll that fit, so my apologies. I was unable to complete a legal name change until about 18 months after beginning transition because of an unrelated legal issue, for one thing. For me, I felt that transition ended when I ran out of things to do to "change," which is more or less in keeping with what you've said. (Except that that was about 2 years before GRS, for me, because I felt that that change was for me alone. By then, I'd been living as female for around 2.5 years.) Once I'd gotten all my paperwork corrected except for the name (and I did have a reasonably unisex nickname, thankfully), was living as female, had been on HRT for a while, and no longer felt that transitioning was the first priority in my life, it felt like I was done. I will still "come out" to support other trans people, but it's no longer a necessity of my life; I choose it (or not) on a case-by-case basis.

It took me about 11 months from figuring out that I needed to transition to feeling that I was finished.

Quote from: jentay1367 on November 19, 2016, 09:17:01 AMI've no idea. I hope I just know when I know. I don't want to be one of those people that is so hypercritical of the mirror and themselves that they can never leave well enough alone and finally.....  just be happy with who they are.

Here's an easy way, then:  When you no longer feel dsyphoric about your body or your social recognition.

Quote from: Michelle_P on November 19, 2016, 10:08:11 AMOK, being gendered correctly by others would mark the end of a social transition.  In detail I would describe that as the point at which others encountering us generally gender us correctly based on our gender presentation, that is, the package of physical appearance, dress, and behavior.  The goal is to avoid triggering transphobic persons who might act against me, and socially integrate well with others of my identified gender.

I finished my internal transition when I granted myself the full gendering I deserve a while ago.  I now know who I am, and am happy within myself.  Now, that doesn't mean I don't want additional things, like SRS, FFS, or even that tracheal shave.  These address social dysphoria.  Those are for the social transition...

My legal transition is well underway...

The medical transition is still in early stages...

I really like how you put all this.  Which makes sense, considering how sharp you are.

Yes, there are all kinds of compartmentalized transitions, different domains which we have to address, because gender itself is so ubiquitous.  It's really a massive category.  Breaking it down into these different parts really makes it more manageable. 

For me, it took navigating all of these domains for me to feel like transition was complete.  However, for me there was also an additional component to the social transition, namely that it got to the point where I no longer had to "come out" because I was finally being gendered the way I needed and coming out would have been counterproductive.  And it was having sex, without disclosing my medical history, that proved it to me. 

(Funny thing about that, by the way.  After we were done, my lover that night -- ten years younger than me, bless -- asked if I was a virgin.  "No," I lied.)

Anyways, I'm not sure I can say that I fully transitioned internally until that moment.  Mostly, yes, because it takes an internal transition just to begin this process in the first place.  Rather, there were still moments when I misgendered myself -- automatically, subconsciously.  Which had a lot to do with my embodiment.  Like, whether I was going to have sex or not, I had to have SRS just to alleviate my dysphoria, which was coming from me and no one else.  I had to have FSRS so I wouldn't misgender myself when looking in the mirror, even though I was getting properly gendered from others before facial surgery. 

My conscious mind was always completely on board, but my subconscious, ewww, sometimes it did a number on me.  Which makes sense, given that dsyphoria is an emotional response, and emotions are generated by the subconscious, preceding conscious thought.

Transsexing, now, that was a different matter entirely.

QuoteOf the various procedures I am contemplating, some, such as gender reassignment surgery, are for myself, as a reassuring boost for my internal self-image and a way to make my clothing fit better.  Others, like that tracheal shave and FFS, are to aid in providing gender clues for my social transition.  These would not be necessary in a society that readily accepts a third sex, trans folks, or however one might express it.

I think SRS, FSRS, and hell electrolysis and voice work for that matter, function both internally and socially.  Our bodies mediate our internal processes with others; of course changing the body is going to change both spheres.

I disagree, however, that addressing our publicly expressed embodiment (everything but SRS, basically) wouldn't be necessary in an accepting society... unless your internal identity isn't binary.  My identity is most assuredly binary, and considering that gender is initially constructed from embodiment, before we get to cultural values and social roles and what not, I think binary gender dysphoria is always going to have to address external public embodiment. 

Because we first assign gender instantly and automatically from material embodiment, much in the same way we can instantly distinguish cats from dogs, or tables from chairs.

Categorically yours,
Sophia ;)