Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Why do Christians assume transsexualism is a sin when it's nothing more than a medical condition? I've read the Bible and the closest thing I've come across to transsexualism is eunuchs and the Bible has mostly positive things to say. The Bible makes it clear that eunuchs can still be followers of Christ and also inherit the kingdom of heaven like any of His other children. My aunt, grandma, and maybe my mother think that it is a sin and definitely in the case of the first two is from Satan, yet I have read the Bible to see if God has anything to say on the subject and there really isn't anything. They argue that 'God doesn't make mistakes' but would you use that against someone born with a missing limb who wanted a prostetic? A person with a mental illness who is seeking treatment? They wouldn't, they would be completely supportive of getting medical help and yet it is somehow different with gender dysphoria which has been a documented medical condition for decades.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I am a Christian and my faith hasn't waned but I found that with this condition I don't really have a problem with God as much as with other Christians. Any advice?

To them it's the same as homosexuality which is explicitly condemned in both the old and new testaments.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Yes, agree with Deborah.

A lot of cis people don't seem to understand that gender identity and sexual orientation are entirely separate things, likely due to the close association of the trans community with the wider LGBQ+ community. I would personally not worry too much about what other people have to say. You should be focused on reading your Bible, growing in your relationship with God, and finding peace about the path that you are on.

Not sure where you are located or what options are available, but you could consider joining a different church. There are a lot of options that are explicitly affirming/accepting these days, and many more that are but don't advertise it.

These are the same people who would claim that a medical problem is God's punishment for a sin.

QuoteJohn 9:3 His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened that the works of God would be displayed in him.

They're wrong, of course.  'Buffet' Christians, taking what reinforces their belief systems from the texts and ignoring the rest, using religion to justify their actions and beliefs.

Some folks seem to forget this bit.  It might be important...

Quote
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' (Matthew 22:37-39)

But it is interesting that they feel fit to judge others...

Quote
James 2:3-4 And if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or, "Sit down at my feet," have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

QuoteMatthew 7:1-29"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

Yes, it's a sin.

Not according to what Jesus said, but according to everything that the fathers of the church have said ever since Jesus ascended to the heavens. And even if they didn't say anything about transitionign explicitly, it's really the same thing. Religious doctrine is not proscriptive like secular law, instead in religious doctrine something is forbidden if it isn't explicitly allowed (and many things are forbidden explicitly). So unless you find a very strong precedent of the fathers of the church accepting and condoning transition (which you will not) then you can be assured that it's a sin.

Of course all this depends on what church you follow. Some are more tolerant than others. Most however are not at all. And for sure it's very hard to follow Jesus' word unless you're part of the church, so if you disagree with the church your only alternative is to go off and worship on your own.

Also, I don't believe you can pick and choose only what you like from what the chruch says Jesus was about. Because religious doctrine builds on itself. If the church says that it's not ok to be gay, and you feel you disagree with them because you're gay, but that's the only thing you disagree with... tough. You can't just follow the bits you like. That's not a church, that's a mob. A really big part of being a Christian, for most denominations, is to listen to what the people say who have authority in the church. It's a flock, remember? There's shepherds. You do what they say, or you're a lost sheep, wandering the wilderness on your own.

Btw, all of the above is what I learned from being born in a christian family, and that's the reason why I left when I realised I had to transition. Because I could not find it in me to reconcile the teachings of the church with what I know about myself. And I could not accept that I could keep loving Christ, but be apart from the church- his church. I could not accept that I could be a solitary Christian, believing in my own god, and drifting further and further away from the fold. It was either sever everything, or stay (and keep from transitioning). For me there was no rhyme or reason in having my very own sollipsistic faith. So I gave up and went away.

Note that there's a ray of light: the church accepts the trans person, they don't accept the transition. You can stay and get a lot of support to be who the church wants you to be. Or you can leave and get no support to be who you want to be.

Edit:

Quote
Sorry for the mini-rant. I am a Christian and my faith hasn't waned but I found that with this condition I don't really have a problem with God as much as with other Christians.

That's what I'm saying: god is the other christians. Exactly what god are you following when it's a god only you know?

Quote from: Deborah on November 11, 2016, 10:06:44 AM
To them it's the same as homosexuality which is explicitly condemned in both the old and new testaments.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Jesus never said a word about men sleeping with men. And anything in the bible that might be interpreted as god hating gays, well, Jesus came to fix the Law and his word overrules it.

On the other hand, Paul did have a few choice words to say about men sleeping with men, and so did all of the fathers of the church after him. And that is why, even in this enlightened day and age, christians the world over will hold hands and chant to pray the gay away.

Btw, this is an example of the kind of thing I mention above: you seem to believe that being gay is wrong in the eyes of god, but being trans is not.

Well, you can't mix and match. If it's wrong to act out on gay desires it's because the church says that it's wrong, from Paul onwards. And the church says transitioning is wrong, so either they're both wrong or the church is wrong. Either your'e a christian and you listen to what the church says and act accordingly, or you're something else entirely and don't belong in the church (as I did not).

You misunderstand what I believe. What I do believe is that the Bible is mythology and that Christianity as it exists  is superstition.

At the same time, I am very familiar with what the Bible says having studied it a graduate-level seminary.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Let's not forget the Bible is a set of books not one book. Whether you believe it is accurate and authoritative is another question all Christians should ask themselves and many do. You absolutely can be Christian and not believe that. You choose your identification, nobody does it for you.

Then there is the matter of the original intent of the authors and the cultural context from which the "clobber" verses were written.

Based on that, my conclusion is that Trans is in no way a sin.

Judging others is also a sin unless I'm mistaken. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Deborah on November 11, 2016, 12:03:08 PM
You misunderstand what I believe. What I do believe is that the Bible is mythology and that Christianity as it exists  is superstition.

At the same time, I am very familiar with what the Bible says having studied it a graduate-level seminary.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

In that case, I apologise for misunderstanding you.

Quote from: GlobalPessimum on November 11, 2016, 12:51:37 PM
In that case, I apologise.

:-).  No problem.  My beliefs have been convoluted and evolving quickly over the past two years as I attempt to unscrew my head from its previous twisted state of trying to reconcile two irreconcilable states of being.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

With the caveat that I am not a Christian and haven't been one for almost half a century I will say this, those who say "God does not make mistakes" are setting themselves up as arbiters of what Deity would considering a mistake.

God doesn't make mistakes. I'm the way I am deliberately, a gift from the Creator. 

What we do with the Creators gifts is the real test of ourselves and others. Do we bury the gift, in spite of the obvious warning signs, pain and discomfort, that this brings us?  The Parable of the Talents is pretty explicit that burying these things brings on problems. I take that parable to heart and embrace my gift, growing it, so that at the end of my days I can return it many fold.

Now, my gift may upset others, including religious leaders and those who claim to be faithful. They judge me, and they cast their stones. They fail the Creators test.

Only the Creator has the power to truly create. We know through medical research that our transgender natures have biological causes that appear to be set before birth. Being transgender is therefor a result of a creative act, manifested physically. Satan can only tempt, and does not have the power of creation. Those who claim that our transgender nature is evil, coming from Satan, are therefore guilty of the Manichaean Heresy, a grave sin assigning Satan creative powers, and will be rewarded accordingly.

12 years with Jesuit teachers... [emoji12]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I read this yesterday

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/using-bible-lgbti-people-irresponsible/#gs.UtbodtU

Love it...spot on

"Christian Pastor says we don't use Bible to understand sexual orientation for the same reasons we don't use 2,000-year old medical books for health guidance"

Liz

I am a devout Christian, and also trans. My interpretation of the conservative evangelical haters is that their God and Bible is flawed. God told us to respect each other and live by positive values like Jesus did. Just because it didn't happen in the Bible doesn't mean we should break from Christian values to hate on other people. If they were coming at it from a perspective of love I would have different thoughts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dear sweet Lord forgive me for I have sinned .People can think what they want ,, but don't even think of taking my Lord from me.

Quote from: RoryM on November 11, 2016, 09:30:37 AM
Why do Christians assume transsexualism is a sin when it's nothing more than a medical condition?

Because, quite simply, most Christians don't know that it's a medical condition.  And really, how could they know that?  What would motivate them to do the necessary research to find that out?  No, it's much easier to just assume that it's some kind of twisted sin.

It doesn't help that the media doesn't mention the underlying biological causes whatsoever.  Instead the focus is always on celebrities and bathrooms.  The science is too complicated for 60 sec news clips.

It's been a while since I've read the bible in it's entirety, but wasn't there a story in it about a Christian hiding themselves as a woman servant for a time?

Also:
Not just a legendary female warrior but also a Roman Catholic saint, Joan was but a girl when visions of the Archangel Michael drove her to approach the military of France's King Charles VII and offer to assist in his efforts to expel the occupying English in the later days of the Hundred Years' War. Though initially mocked by these men and soldiers, Joan was taken seriously once her influence ended the Siege of Orleans in nine days.
By age 17, she played a key role in commanding France's army, and her forte in the military seemed to be for strategy over slaying. The French owed much to Joan, and yet it was the Burgundians, Frenchmen loyal to England, that led to her demise. She was captured in 1430 and, despite several escape attempts and rescue efforts, Joan was put on trial by the English for heresy and cross-dressing. Her visions were now derided, and her armor called an atrocity. She was convicted, sentenced to death, and burned alive at the stake.
Even after her death, her strategies are said to have influenced the French battle model. More than 25 years later, the Catholic Church revisited Joan's trial for heresy, overturning the charges against her in a case of too little too late. It would be more than 460 years before Pope Benedict XV declared Joan a saint.

A sainted Transgender person.

As stated above you can believe almost anything you want to believe and find a Church to support those beliefs. 

To me, this flies in the face of the notion that there is a single Holy Spirit of the Trinitarian God that is guiding these Churches.  By definition, that Holy Spirit must be of a single consistent mind.  What we see exhibited in Christendom on the other hand is a claimed Holy Spirit of diverse and contradictory minds.  If you can reconcile this with the idea of one God then just find a Church that agrees with your notions.

If you want to know what the overwhelming vast majority of the Church from the beginning has thought of men transitioning into women then those writings are available going way back to second century.  In those writings there is absolutely nothing but overwhelming condemnation and extreme bile rivaling the worst of anything that is written today.

When you strip away everything else, that is why those in the Church condemn us.  It's the same condemnation that they have been speaking for 1900 years.

If God actually does not condemn us, assuming he exists at all, it would be easy enough for him to say something, to tell his followers that they are wrongfully condemning other Christians.  But there has been only silence on this.  Why?

You can conclude one of three things.

- God does condemn us.
- God has willingly allowed his Church to wrongfully persecute and kill us now for 2000 years.
- The Jewish, Christian, Muslim God is a mythological superstition existing only in humanity's collective mind.

Given the nature of God as defined by the Church and in the Bible, which of the above three conclusions makes the best sense?


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

I grappled with this question when I accepted who I am, and I spent a lot of time thinking and praying about it and researching what I could find written about it.

My conclusion? First - there is a biological basis for transsexualism. Second - God made me the way He wants me to be for His purpose. God looks at my heart to know the kind of person that I am while everyone else looks at the outside and makes their own judgement (1 Samuel 16:7). Consider the verses concerning the eunuchs - God is clearly OK with them so it stands to reason that he is OK with me (Matthew 19:12, Isaiah 56:3-5).

So the question goes back to why the church is so virulently against us when God does not seem to be so? 

I can think of many reasons but the main ones to me seem to be a combination of the desires of mans heart combined with the fact people simply don't read their bible and study it's verses in the proper context  - instead, they rely on what they hear from the pulpit and they use cherry picked verses out of context to condemn what they "know" is a sin without any scriptural basis to support it. This comes from the human side of people wanting to think that they have a scriptural basis to support their bigotry.

What is taught from the pulpit comes from years of strict conformity to church doctrine and no religious leader is going to deviate from that doctrine if he wants to keep his job (google David P. Gushee to find out what happens when a church leader bucks the system). The church is fully vested in these incorrect teachings and anyone thinking outside of the accepted church teaching is punished. So the church is incapable of changing, trapped by centuries of it's own dogma.

God told us as Christians to love Him and to love our neighbors as the most important things. How the church continues to deliberately ignore that very explicit instruction from God in favor of hateful & incorrect teachings is beyond me.

Oh, and that one clobber verse that commonly gets rolled out by Christians against us - Deuteronomy 22:5 - has nothing to do with us. It is a prohibition against men dressing as women to avoid military duty, and a prohibition against women dressing as men to fight in the military - google John Gill's Exposition of the Bible on this verse to get a full explanation.

Quote from: Artesia on November 12, 2016, 06:36:31 AM
It's been a while since I've read the bible in it's entirety, but wasn't there a story in it about a Christian hiding themselves as a woman servant for a time?

I believe that's actually the subject of a Philippino manga:

https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=30729

Quote
Maid in Japan 

In order to be bought by a rich family, Narumi Inoue, hiding the truth that he is a man, goes to a girls' school. As a trainee, Narumi was sent to serve a girl from a rich family who hates maids (only weekends). Keeping the 'heart of treating/serving people,' Japanese maid, Maid in Japan, Narumi's battle will start? If it is found out that Narumi is a man, he will be castrated.

Quote from: Eva Marie on November 12, 2016, 09:42:02 AM
Oh, and that one clobber verse that commonly gets rolled out by Christians against us - Deuteronomy 22:5 - has nothing to do with us. It is a prohibition against men dressing as women to avoid military duty, and a prohibition against women dressing as men to fight in the military - google John Gill's Exposition of the Bible on this verse to get a full explanation.

Hi, Eva Marie!

I love it when someone pulls Deuteronomy 22:5 out. First, I make a show of inspecting their clothes while asking where their tassels are. Then I might ask if they have battlements on their roof. And had he discovered his fathers skirt?

If they haven't lost their temper (0 intemperate sinner!) by then I discuss the wardrobe of desert nomads of 1500 BCE. Men and women wore the same tubelike undershirt, covered with the same poncho-like garment, fastened by cords. Not at all like Cecil B DeMille imagined, I suppose. If they are still paying attention I talk about the bad translation and the actual Middle Hebrew.

Some parts of the Bible have had a regular game of "telephone" played on them. Add in the interpolations from over-enthusiastic translators over the centuries, many of which conflict with the core message of Jesus, and the result is something I find ideologically imperfect.

"Love your neighbor as yourself, for the love of God. Except for those people over there; kill them!"

(Bonus points for identifying the New Testament set of verses I just paraphrased. Nasty interpolation there. )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Michelle_P on November 12, 2016, 01:28:07 PM

(Bonus points for identifying the New Testament set of verses I just paraphrased. Nasty interpolation there. )

Matt 22:36-40: "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (RSV2CE)

Jesus was quoting the OT here but adding a new interpretation.  Neighbor in this context had meant fellow Jews only.  Jesus now said it included everyone.

Matt 5:43-48: You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (RSV2CE)

Despite Jesus giving this instruction, for most of Christian history and continuing today, most Christians more or less love other Christians in their particular sub sect and loathe everyone else, including Christians in other denominations.  Look up Jack Chick Catholic tracts for some examples. http://www.chick.com/m/catalog/tracts_byabc.asp


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: stephaniec on November 11, 2016, 08:37:29 PM
Dear sweet Lord forgive me for I have sinned .People can think what they want ,, but don't even think of taking my Lord from me.

Is that a quote from Jimmy Swaggart? Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/22/why-do-conservative-christian-clergy-keep-screwing-around.html
Don't hate Christians, hate there hypocrisy.

Quote from: Michelle_P on November 12, 2016, 01:28:07 PM
Hi, Eva Marie!

I love it when someone pulls Deuteronomy 22:5 out. First, I make a show of inspecting their clothes while asking where their tassels are. Then I might ask if they have battlements on their roof. And had he discovered his fathers skirt?

If they haven't lost their temper (0 intemperate sinner!) by then I discuss the wardrobe of desert nomads of 1500 BCE. Men and women wore the same tubelike undershirt, covered with the same poncho-like garment, fastened by cords. Not at all like Cecil B DeMille imagined, I suppose. If they are still paying attention I talk about the bad translation and the actual Middle Hebrew.

Some parts of the Bible have had a regular game of "telephone" played on them. Add in the interpolations from over-enthusiastic translators over the centuries, many of which conflict with the core message of Jesus, and the result is something I find ideologically imperfect.

"Love your neighbor as yourself, for the love of God. Except for those people over there; kill them!"

(Bonus points for identifying the New Testament set of verses I just paraphrased. Nasty interpolation there. )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All of this just says that you can't take the testaments literally, so you have to interpret it, and in the context of your respective historical era at that. But then- who is to do the interpretation? If every christian has their own idea of what the testaments say, christianity is not a religion, it's just a disjoint set of people who can't agree on anything. So there must be a central authority whose job it is to explain what the good book says. And like I say, you won't find any christian authority that says it's ok to be trans.

And even besides the opinion of any authority, the fact remains that the majority of christians agree that to change one's gender is not a christian thing any more than it is to sleep with your own sex- otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

So my question remains: if someone believes in something most christians do not, how is that person a christian?

QuoteSo my question remains: if one believes in something most christians do not, how is that person a christian?

Easy.  One declares oneself to be a Christian.

Then, members of the other sects bicker over whether or not one is actually a Christian, just as is done for Catholics, Lutherns, and Pentecostals focused on Mark 16:17-18.

Want a more formal approach?  Find a really hungry Christian seminary, preferably with an online presence.  'Enroll' and give them a big bequest in exchange for honorary ordination.  Next, publish your beliefs as a new revelation, and declare a schism.  File for tax-exempt status.   ;D

That brings new meaning to this verse.

Matt 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; (RSV2CE)


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

I would like to add that none of what I write here means I think atheism is the answer.  It's just that that Judeo-Christian-Muslim understanding of God  cannot stand any scrutiny.  And as the past couple of generations demonstrate, its tendency to generate constant war and bloodshed is a pox on humanity.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

I'm not Christian, but I do have a funny anecdote relating to this, since people have brought up the relationship between being trans and homosexuality relating to biblical interpretations.

My parents, who are very devout and strict Christians, actually had no problem at all when I came out as bi and dated a different gendered person than I had before. That surprised me. They blew a gasket, though, when I came out as trans. Actually, that gasket is still blown and they are still calling me a sinner for it.

No amount of biblical explanation on my part (because I do know the book very well) could change their minds.

I'm glad my Christian boyfriend could look past that.

Quote from: Michelle_P on November 12, 2016, 03:35:15 PM
Easy.  One declares oneself to be a Christian.

Then, members of the other sects bicker over whether or not one is actually a Christian, just as is done for Catholics, Lutherns, and Pentecostals focused on Mark 16:17-18.

Want a more formal approach?  Find a really hungry Christian seminary, preferably with an online presence.  'Enroll' and give them a big bequest in exchange for honorary ordination.  Next, publish your beliefs as a new revelation, and declare a schism.  File for tax-exempt status.   ;D

Sure, you can start your own sect and pretend you're christian, but then why choose "christianity"? You might as well call yourself a jedi, which at least has some cool movies to go with it (and let's be frank: as evil dudes go Satan can't hold a candle to Darth Vader).

Of course, if what you want is spiritual guidance, rather than tax returns, you're still stuck. And the truth is there's many people who sorely need some sort of spiritual guidance that only a strong community can offer them.

Also, Catholics, Lutherans and Pentecostals (from whichever side of the bridge) are all denominations of rather more than one person (particularly the first two). Indicentally they also hold negative views of homosexual behaviour, and of transitioning. They might disagree on the fine details, but you can rest assured there's some things they can all agree on.

Being LGBTQIA+ is a sin according to the bible and many other religious books.
But here is other sins:

1. Tattoos
2. Eating shrimps
3. Wearing mixed fabrics
4. Adultery (Cheating)

QuoteDeuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

5. Working at Sabbathday, the holy day. Too bad for the hospitals, cops and the firefighters.
Exodus 31:14–15 reads:

Quote"Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

6. Masturbation
7. Eating pork
8. Getting remarried after a divorce
9. Gossiping
10. Females speaking in the church and the assembly
11. Certain haircuts and beard styles

QuoteLeviticus 19:27 reads:
"You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads . . ."

Leviticus 19:27 reads:
"neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

12. Mixed fabrics

QuoteLeviticus 19:19 "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

List: http://list25.com/25-normal-things-the-bible-forbids-but-we-still-do/4/

Most of those things, particularly the food laws were abrogated in the New Testament.  So the argument will always fail.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Deborah on November 13, 2016, 09:29:55 AM
Most of those things, particularly the food laws were abrogated in the New Testament.  So the argument will always fail.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Were the marriage "laws" removed too, or are they the remaining rules after the New Testament, since there are still many anti-LGBT+ people who's religious?

The marriage laws about divorce remained intact.  The Catholics figured out a way to make money on that and charge people a fee for annulment.  Protestants generally just ignore Jesus' words altogether.   Funny how that works!  [emoji1305]


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: DawnOday on November 12, 2016, 02:28:37 PM
Is that a quote from Jimmy Swaggart? Ted Haggard, Jim Bakker?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/22/why-do-conservative-christian-clergy-keep-screwing-around.html
Don't hate Christians, hate there hypocrisy.

no sorry it's a quote from the famous Stephanie the Blessed.

You can be any sort of Christian you identify as including ones that do not hold scripture as inerrant. Never, Never let anyone tell you otherwise.

 full disclosure: i am not a baptized christian and have never attended church on any regular basis, but my father was raised in a very "old testament" family. he has read the bible several times.

  my father i think had some problems in sunday school growing up nothing weird just questions that where answered with "thats just the way it is." his pasture was caught in a parked car with a married woman though. he didnt want to i guess force me into religion, he want me to chose it for myself. he would answer my questions though and we would talk about god and the bible. when i was growing that was my sunday school.
  i think what he explained to me about smoking (also tattoos) would cover a transgender person. he said that god gives everyone there own temple and if you harm it or alter it this is rejecting what he gave you, and that is a sin. i asked him but you smoke how will you get into heaven? and he told me that if someone excepts Jesus Christ as their lord and savior he will forgive your sins and they will be excepted into heaven. he died for our sins.
  this i think he got from reading the new testament several times after leaving home.

Quote from: 1972scarednalone on November 14, 2016, 01:02:40 PM
  i think what he explained to me about smoking (also tattoos) would cover a transgender person. he said that god gives everyone there own temple and if you harm it or alter it this is rejecting what he gave you, and that is a sin. i asked him but you smoke how will you get into heaven? and he told me that if someone excepts Jesus Christ as their lord and savior he will forgive your sins and they will be excepted into heaven. he died for our sins.

I'd respectfully take the opposite view -- when we transition, we're taking care of our bodies by bringing them into harmony with our true selves.  It's a healing process, not a damaging one, and I can't believe that God frowns on it any more than He frowns on taking medication for high blood pressure, or having a birth defect surgically corrected.  I see God's hand in the technology and expertise that enables us to correct a painful and potentially deadly medical condition, not in the condition itself.

Quote from: ActionLiz on November 21, 2016, 12:04:18 AM
I'd respectfully take the opposite view -- when we transition, we're taking care of our bodies by bringing them into harmony with our true selves.  It's a healing process, not a damaging one, and I can't believe that God frowns on it any more than He frowns on taking medication for high blood pressure, or having a birth defect surgically corrected.  I see God's hand in the technology and expertise that enables us to correct a painful and potentially deadly medical condition, not in the condition itself.

  i must concede, no argument from me. i only wanted to take the long i guess. to say if someone says someone else is sinning (possibly unforgivable). they may be a bit to old testament and this from what i was taught is not christian. "let he who is without sin..."

The New Testament, specifically Paul, tells Christians to admonish each other for the other's sins.  It also tells them to eject the ones that do not listen to them.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: ActionLiz on November 21, 2016, 12:04:18 AM
I'd respectfully take the opposite view -- when we transition, we're taking care of our bodies by bringing them into harmony with our true selves.  It's a healing process, not a damaging one, and I can't believe that God frowns on it any more than He frowns on taking medication for high blood pressure, or having a birth defect surgically corrected.  I see God's hand in the technology and expertise that enables us to correct a painful and potentially deadly medical condition, not in the condition itself.

I completely agree with this. I'm not a scriptural dogmatic - its not inerrant and not accurate on so many things in my opinion. Still it give us a decent understanding of our relationship to God, the spirt likely has to do the rest.

Quote from: Deborah on November 21, 2016, 01:42:02 PM
The New Testament, specifically Paul, tells Christians to admonish each other for the other's sins.  It also tells them to eject the ones that do not listen to them.

i like the rainbow and lollipops version of God as much as everyone else does, but as deborah points out it is not always so in the bible. my father explained this to me as well. he would probably not be happy i cheated using the internet, but i wanted to find something closer to what he taught me. there did come a point he told me. i would have to read the bible myself, and come to my own interpretation of the bible and relationship with Jesus Christ. i have not been able to do so yet but i would like to some day. i did try to a few times but not so easy for me having to read paragraphs over and over again to truly grasp them. this web page seems to be the closest to what my father explained Jesus Christ to be. i suppose he favored the forgiving Jesus Christ over the vengeful God.

http://newlife.id.au/christian-theology/the-ultimate-sin/ (http://newlife.id.au/christian-theology/the-ultimate-sin/)

As far as salvation and eternal life goes, unbelief is the sin that really matters!

In the Old Testament, the verses condemning people for cross-dressing are next to verses calling for stoning of children who defy their parents, or who carry something heavy on Saturday.

As for the Apostle Paul, he didn't just condemn homosexuality but in the same paragraphs, all promiscuity, gossip, fear, lack of faith, women speaking in church, women ruling over men, women not wearing a head veil in church, and he further told women to stay at quietly at home and have children.

I actually went along with church stuff when little, although I read the Bible for myself and could see the inconsistencies, but once I read the original Hebrew and Greek I saw that all Jesus saying was that we also are God and can do whatever He does..the Prodigal Son story even says we are the same DNA as God, and all God has is ours. Jesus told people who were healed during his ministry that THEIR faith healed them, told us that if we told a mountain to jump into the sea, it must obey us.

No mention of something having to be "God's will" or that God did it for us. We are able to do it ourselves.

But I didn't have to be trans to get rejected by the church. When my husband dumped me and my two kids to run off with a younger woman I quickly found out what my fellow church members were really like. I was suddenly invisible, a second class citizen, ignored, while my husband never lost a church customer.

I suddenly could no longer take the sermons on how God controls everything, and whatever happens is to teach us a lesson (we are helpless victims).  Babies die because God has a plan (God kills people's kids to make them better Christians)..no personal responsibility-we are only victims of a capricious God. And teaching intolerance for wicked gays and Muslims.

I'm sure there are good churches, but I'm so over it by now.

I do love meditating with the Thai and going to Buddhist temples..so beautiful, peaceful, open air, animals wandering in and out, flowers and wild birds abundant on the temple grounds. Just being there puts one into a natural meditative state.

This is d bigot fanatical old world view... I am Catholic and I have consulted with a few priests on the issue and they reassured me that it is not a sin and when it comes to sexual relations he advised me to make it asloving as possible... I posted here our email correspondence in the past....

Your priests disagree with the Pope; kind of a big deal in the Catholic Church.




It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

The priest of the Catholic church i sometimes attend also does not see it as a sin. The churches are often more liberal than even this liberal leaning Pope.

The baptist church i sometimes attend - the pastor does not see it as a sin - a direct quote from him " it is medical care, how can it be a sin?". He is a decent friend of mine.

The Anglican (Episcopal but they identify as Anglican ) church i attend at times has a female pastor, also does not consider trans not a sin. I of course ask this because i am both curious and also don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, there are many church options.

Quote from: Raell on November 22, 2016, 06:37:41 AM
Jesus saying was that we also are God and can do whatever He does..

  Raell

  would this be why people take the passage "Vengeance is mine" and think it is theirs? or would there be more to it? i have been told it is not ours but it is for God.

  please forgive me for asking, and i see why you would leave the church that is awful and i think completely not Christ like what these people did.

p.s. my cousin became Buddhist a long time ago, she is a very happy person.

I am Catholic and as you know the Catholic church can be really strict about many many issues.... I left the church for yearsssss because of bad experiences and judgement from Priests but I can always feel the "call"to come back.... Let me just share my correspondence with the magnificent catholic priest that changed my life........I'll xxxxx names for privacy reasons.... Hope it helps someome that might be looking for answers.

Dear xxxxxx., ( Miss Lux)

The most common phrase in the whole of the Bible is "Don't be afraid."  I think that is so for a good reason, that we are so often afraid to lay our lives open to another, and often enough to God.  I can well understand your being afraid having been told those various things by priests.  There is no sin involved at all in having a sexual reassignment procedure.  As for sexual relationships in the future, I think the main thing is to trust in God's goodness and mercy, and to keep a watch on your own heart to see that your actions and relationships are as loving as they can possibly be.

Regarding going to confession to someone.  What part of the world are you living in.  It's a long shot, but depending where you are I may be able to find someone who would be sensitive to your needs.  The main thing is to trust in God's goodness and perhaps start to attend Mass again if you can find a community and Church that seems right for you.   I have people coming to see me in a few minutes so this will be grief for the moment. Let me know if you'd like to, what part of the world you live in and I may be able to follow something up for you then - I can't promise of course, but there may a path that might open up for you that way.

All good wishes.,
Father xxxxxx


PS - XXXXXX - we are who we are, and you can be sure that God unsterstands the journey of your heart and the need you had to make the changes in your life that you have made. So I'd encourage you to let go of any sense of God being unhappy with you because of your change of sexual identity.  God knows us intimately and understands better than we do ourselves our needs and the cries of our hearts.  So please relax about all that.  Life is too short and too precious to be ruined by other people's mis-judgements!

If we are true to our own deepest self, then we are in harmony with God's dream for us.
Father XXXXXX
----- Original Message -----


Dear Father Xxxx,

    First of all thank you for emailing back and I pray for your fast recovery from the shoulder surgery and thank you for touching lives and letting us see more of the Christ of love,compassion and forgiveness.

    I have been searching for answers for sometime now on and off but have given up many times due to frustration or perhaps for not wanting to know the painful truth. But recently I have been having a fervent desire to go back to the Catholic church, to receive the sacraments again but I am scared!!!!

I stopped attending mass, receiving communion,going to church for almost 7 years now but I never abandoned my faith in Christ, I continued to pray every night and  say my novena to St. Therese and introduce St. Therese to my friends and on several occasions I received the unexpected rose/petals from St. Therese  I dunno if it's  just a mere coincidence (3X)  but it helped  me to never let go of my faith in God.

   Father, I am xx years old a registered nurse here in the USA and I had a  sex reassignment surgery several years ago, male to female. The thoughts of going to hell and having disobeyed(?) Christ constantly bugs me every time I pray. I have searched and researched and I get contradicting response from theologians,Internet to Pat Robinson to religious friends.

    I want to go back to the Catholic Church and receive the Holy Communion again but I am scared reallyyyy scared to go to confession, I was traumatized!!! Before I stopped going to church I went to confession and  after having confessed my sins the priest from St. John Bosco  told me that my sins will not be forgiven if I don't cut my hair,go to counseling etc... ,What more now!!!! When I hand out novena's to St. Therese to some people I know a few told me that im giving novenas out but I am disobeying God  nor fixing my life for being a transsexual etc...

    I know you've heard and read about it and it is truly hard to understand unless you are one, Father I am not rationalizing but since I was a toddler/pre-schooler I have always felt I am a girl.It is not about  the attraction to boys but it is my very being is a girl ever since. >From the time I learned to pray I would pray to God to make me a woman when I wake up, every birthday wish, every Christmas wish every wishing well wish but after reality hits me that it is not possible and some started telling me I am going to hell my wishes and prayers to God changed to just take me or don't make me wake up anymore. I contemplated suicide many times but the fears of hell scared me.

    Father, I get conflicting answers is it a sin to have had a sex change surgery? Is it a mortal sin? How about the hermaphrodites/intersexed will they sin if they undergo corrective surgery?  I wanna go to confession  but scaaaaaaaaaared what if the priest refuse to give me absolution like before if unless I  become male again, then I will die with my sins, I won't be able to receive the holy communion forever? If I receive absolution I assume it is forgiven and im no longer living with that sin if it is a sin, so if I fall into temptation how will I confess it - I engaged in pre-marital sex or homosexual acts? I can't get married either in the eyes of God too, so every relationship with a man would be a sin too? Can I just confess directly to God or the sacrament of confession is a must in order to receive  the holy communion? Father is it possible to confess via phone just to get over this hump? I work every other weekend 12 hrs shift as a nurse, can I attend Friday night mass for those Sundays?

    Father enlighten me, help me ,I am lost and hurting.


Sincerely,
Xxxx

Quote from: Deborah on November 22, 2016, 09:09:59 AM
Your priests disagree with the Pope; kind of a big deal in the Catholic Church.




It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

The current Pope has not released any statement in particular about transsexuals... The Pope released a statement regarding homosexuals and it is more of love and acceptance rather than judgement.

He has lumped it all together with the phrase gender theory and addressed it here.

Quote56. Yet another challenge is posed by the var- ious forms of an ideology of gender that "denies the difference and reciprocity in nature of a man and a woman and envisages a society without sexual differences, thereby eliminating the anthropological basis of the family. This ideology leads to educational programmes and legislative enactments that promote a personal identity and emotional intimacy radically separated from the biological difference between male and female. Consequently, human identity becomes the choice of the individual, one which can also change over time.   . . .
Let us not fall into the sin of trying to replace the Creator. We are creatures, and not omnipotent. Creation is prior to us and must be received as a gift. At the same time, we are called to protect our humanity, and this means, in the first place, accepting it and respecting it as it was created.

AMORIS LÆTITIA, pg 44, https://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf , 19 Mar 2016



It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

I found this recording of Alan Watts to be of interest to the conversation. It may be long, but it's an interesting perspective on the whole Christianity/Sin thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s42V8BGBvTk

Quote from: Deborah on November 23, 2016, 12:31:00 AM
He has lumped it all together with the phrase gender theory and addressed it here.
AMORIS LÆTITIA, pg 44, https://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20160319_amoris-laetitia_en.pdf , 19 Mar 2016

Also, there is this:

Speaking to a group of Polish bishops, Pope Francis delivered a harsh critique of teaching children they can choose their gender identity.

"Today, children are taught this at school: that everyone can choose their own sex," Francis said last week, according to the Catholic Herald and other news organizations that read a Vatican transcript of the closed-door meeting. "God created man and woman; God created the world like this and we are doing the exact opposite."

Teaching children that they can pick their gender, Francis said, is "terrible."
-Washington Post
dateline 8/3/2016

QuoteTeaching children that they can pick their gender, Francis said, is "terrible."

Well, there's the problem.

Transgender children are not picking their gender.  They're discovering that their gender doesn't match the structure of their body.  They are realizing that their assigned gender is not their correct gender.  There's precious little choice in this.

Discovering that once has a medical problem and seeking assistance in resolving it is not "terrible."

I agree with you.  Two billion other people agree with him. :-(


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

personally, I think quite a few Christians would be pretty surprised what Christ actually thought if he came back and gave his opinion

Quote from: Deborah on November 23, 2016, 08:16:59 PM
I agree with you.  Two billion other people agree with him. :-(

It's the hat.  I clearly need a much bigger hat.  Yeah, that's the ticket!

Quote from: stephaniec on November 23, 2016, 08:23:51 PM
personally, I think quite a few Christians would be pretty surprised what Christ actually thought if he came back and gave his opinion

agreed,

Archangel Michael who appeared before me today in person as a angel, yes in person I am not here to be sarcastic and will happily answer this on a polygraph machine. Made a request for me to post the following statement from him on here. He asked me to post it asap out of concern for members here:

Being trans is not a sin and you are loved by me and the other angels and archangels. If you need support or guidance or healing or protection ask for me. I am not allowed to intervene unless invited by you.

I stand ready to help unconditionally 24/7/365 you are always loved unconditionally. We are working to advance trans rights a lot constantly you're situation as trans people will improve heavily over the next 10 years you are under our protection. All you need to do do is ask us for our help. We love you unconditionally as the gender you identify as you will never be punished for being trans you are loved. We ask you to contact us so we can help you.

We love you unconditionally as transwomen and transmen. Do what you need to do to be happy we support you always.

Love

Archangel Michael

Personally I never used to believe in Angels that was till January 2014 when Archangel Michael took the decision to make his presence known to me and turned up out of the blue and sent me into shock. Since that day I have been taught a lot by him as he took a decision to make me one his students.

He personally healed me of my depression, severe ptsd, anxiety and suicidal feelings without the use of conventional therapy or medication.

I am very grateful and thankful for this.

Thank you for all of your perspectives guys. I have been thinking about it more and honestly most Christians do not seem to research into gender dysphoria or transsexualism. I believe one of the most irresponsible things done by different churches is that pastors jump to conclusions that it is a sin and then they tell their congregations that. It becomes an echo chamber with no one really researching about it.

As has been said most Christians seem to link it to homosexuality which maybe because the trans community has allied themselves with the sexuality movement. So they assume they're pretty much the same thing.

  personally i think it is very irresponsible of a pasture who may have a transgender person in her or her congregation, not to research or try to understand that person. pretty sure it is the least of what Jesus would do.

1 Samuel 24:13
As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness'; but my hand shall not be against you.

Matthew 7:20
So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Indeed, by their fruit you will definitely know them. Not by any other means.

I was homeless when I was 18. I was kicked out of my parents house by my alcoholic father. One day, all my stuff stood on the side of the road. Everything I had. A Christian family took care of me, and shared their house and bread with me. They were the only ones who cared about me. That is true faith! not those hypocrites who con others all week, and sit in the front row of church, judging others all day long.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

Quote from: RobynD on November 22, 2016, 12:11:31 PM

The baptist church i sometimes attend - the pastor does not see it as a sin - a direct quote from him " it is medical care, how can it be a sin?". He is a decent friend of mine.

Oops. Wrong. It is not a medical condition. It is something we are born with and somehow seen as a medical condition. How many people just woke up today and said..I feel like being Trans? I would bet the number is small if it existed at all. Most of the comments at Susan's has been that we realized we were different around 5 years old. In introduction after introduction the story is the same. Nobody I know has thus far had God visit them and say "You are going to be transgender, live with it.

Careful there.  If being a transgender person is not something requiring medical care, there is no good reason for insurance to cover the stuff in the WPATH Standards of Care[/i}, and a whole bunch of folks who don't happen to have a huge stack of cash available will get left out in the cold.

They think it's a sin because they do not read their bible for themselves. The bible says eunuchs are good, it says judging others = bad. It says live by the law or live by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus said himself that the whole law can be summed up in these 2 things: Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind. And Love thy neighbor as thyself. If you are doing those 2 things you will make it just fine.
And to the others who say that you don't have to believe the bible to be a christian...that is a bunch of hogwash. You are only a christian if you believe in Jesus and have called on him to save you. Also as far as homosexuality is concerned....go try to find that word in the bible. Everything in the greek has been shown to be relative to idol worship.

I have met very few Christians who espouse the literal way of Christ as their own. Most I've encountered have an air of sanctimony that makes me cringe. Many, if not the majority, of them tend to be Christian in name, only. Fewer truly believe what they say. Even fewer live up to their own words and beliefs. A very, very small percentage actually live up to the name and I'm sure there are those unaccounted for that do good works without the praise and still believe they are doing the Lord's work (and do so joyfully).

I will admit that I have not read this whole thread and I am not religious, but my wife was watching that.new Queen Latifah show where her son is trans and her pastor boyfriend quotes Dueteronomy 22...5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

I was surprised at this and looked it up.  Not that it makes a hill of beans about how I feel and who I am, but for it to actually appear there was a bit of a shock.

There is a lot in the OT books that is legalistic, two of the common mentioned is wearing clothing of mixed fabrics and eating shellfish such as clams and lobster. There are darker and stranger ones in terms of our modern culture than that too.

To me a sin is something that hurts people and is unloving to them. God is Love, that (Christ) fulfills the old laws that were levied on Israel.  You have to do some mighty mental gymnastics to get to the point that you could say loving someone is deny them the ability to be their true selves or love the people they love.

All mentions of anything even close to ->-bleeped-<- in the new testament is not attributed to Christ but to his followers in writing letters to new churches. It very open to both linguistic and cultural interpretation as to what those verses even mean.

Personally i am not sure how anyone that is Christian can be a bible literalist or biblical inerrancy proponent. To begin with, it is set of books written by people. These shows man's relationship to God and within the Godhead, Christ as a savior. Beyond that it is full of inexactness and some contradictions. Bible inerrancy as a theology in my opinion, is worshiping the bible and not God.

This one is personally significant as it was used to justify some pretty horrific treatment I received growing up.  I've also heard it used against women wearing pantsuits and jeans.  "Mysterious ways', indeed...

Quote from: NikkiB51 on February 21, 2017, 03:22:38 PM
I will admit that I have not read this whole thread and I am not religious, but my wife was watching that.new Queen Latifah show where her son is trans and her pastor boyfriend quotes Dueteronomy 22...5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

I'd just like to note that the translation of Deuteronomy 22:5 above is the King James Bible or one of its derivatives or relatives.  What you are reading there is 3500 year old Hebrew translated to Greek, translated to Classical Greek, translated to Roman Latin, translated to Ecclesiastical Latin, translated to Middle English, rewritten to the English of King James' time.

The text changes further in the New International Version:

Quote5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

The first thing to note is that the two places that hint at clothing in the translationsof this verse are really two different words in the Hebrew original. "Men's clothing" represents the Hebrew "keli-never" which means "all of the things of manhood", i.e. clothes, armor, weapons, tools, etc. "Women's clothing" represents the Hebrew word "simlath" which was the square mantel that women wore.

Amusingly, almost all of the basic articles of clothing worn by members of the nomadic Hebrew tribe of 3500 years ago were identical between men and women.  The major variation was that the fighting men, or "warriors" for those who like that romantic turn of phrase, wore padded coverings of different materials as an outer layer.

If we go back to the original Hebrew and translate without trying to put a theological spin on the text, we get something like:

Quote
The [woman|weak persons] shall not put on [the weapons|armor of a warrior], neither shall a [warrior] put on a [woman|weak person]'s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

This appears to be a prohibition on dressing noncombatants in armor to make an armed force appear larger, or hiding a fighting force among the women and children.  I can certainly understand that being considered a Bad Idea.
[/quote]

Quote from: RobynD on February 21, 2017, 03:33:28 PM
Personally i am not sure how anyone that is Christian can be a bible literalist or biblical inerrancy proponent. To begin with, it is set of books written by people. These shows man's relationship to God and within the Godhead, Christ as a savior. Beyond that it is full of inexactness and some contradictions. Bible inerrancy as a theology in my opinion, is worshiping the bible and not God.

You and I believe they are books written by people.  But for the majority of Christians they are the inerrant word of God, written by people who were supernaturally led by God's Holy Spirit to make God's intent clearly known in writing.  Understanding their mindset reveals this problem in a different light.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Deborah on February 21, 2017, 06:15:23 PM
You and I believe they are books written by people.  But for the majority of Christians they are the inerrant word of God, written by people who were supernaturally led by God's Holy Spirit to make God's intent clearly known in writing.  Understanding their mindset reveals this problem in a different light.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Thanks Deborah - Definitely get their position on it and to some extent their motivation, but I can't get my mind around how people arrive at that belief. It is something my intellect will not allow I guess.

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 21, 2017, 04:16:03 PM
I'd just like to note that the translation of Deuteronomy 22:5 above is the King James Bible or one of its derivatives or relatives.  What you are reading there is 3500 year old Hebrew translated to Greek, translated to Classical Greek, translated to Roman Latin, translated to Ecclesiastical Latin, translated to Middle English, rewritten to the English of King James' time.

wow! guess that is a good thing to keep in mind when reading the bible.

People are never going to agree when disputing what anonymous authors in an alien culture meant when they wrote something down 2500 to 3000 years ago.  It doesn't really matter either as it is the Church which defines the meaning of scripture and not the other way around.  This is explicitly true in the Catholic Church and even though they won't admit it, is true for Protestants too.  If it wasn't then there would be agreement on its meaning and its obvious to the casual observer that there is not now nor has there ever been agreement among Protestants about anything, including scripture.

So if you want to know if it's a sin just look to what your Church teaches.  If you don't like their definition then find another Church with a definition you do like.

It's also helpful to know what the definition of sin is.

SIN Human activity that is contrary to God's will.  "Lexham Bible Dictionary"

Or

SIN Defined by theologians as any thought, word, or deed that transgresses the law of God.  "Catholic Bible Dictionary"

It really has nothing to do with the modern concept that sin is that which harms somebody else.



It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

i knew the bible was translated but never realized it could be so many different languages.

Quote from: Deborah on February 25, 2017, 09:52:30 AM
So if you want to know if it's a sin just look to what your Church teaches.  If you don't like their definition then find another Church with a definition you do like.

prefer that it all boils down to each persons personal relationship with Jesus Christ. all sin will be forgiven if we except him as our savior. not sure what to think of any of it but, i am saving that one for when it matters. c(=

Quote from: NikkiB51 on February 21, 2017, 03:22:38 PM
I will admit that I have not read this whole thread and I am not religious, but my wife was watching that.new Queen Latifah show where her son is trans and her pastor boyfriend quotes Dueteronomy 22...5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

I was surprised at this and looked it up.  Not that it makes a hill of beans about how I feel and who I am, but for it to actually appear there was a bit of a shock.

I was recently listening to a rabbi talk on this issue and he was saying that this proscription is actually proscribing being false in one's dealings with other people.  So in fact the person who cross dresses in public is, ironically, being true (i.e. revealing to the world openly their inner sense of their own gender identity, at no small cost either I might add) in their dealings with other people and actually fulfilling the biblical command that is given in this passage.

Also, many Christians take the Bible literally and the people who wrote it, Jews, most of them don't take it literally at all anymore.  In my view it is a colossal error to take the Bible literally.

The main thing is keep then10 words of Yehuah the word of Yah for the first 4 shows our love and respect for him,the last 6 shows how we deal with one another. The TaNaK is the bible and Deuteronomy is the book of rememberance and the new testament is testimony and letters for the scripture quoted in the new testament is out of the old testament. The problem is there is not old and new testament one on going message to the house of Israel,i don't buy into the Christian replacement theology..

Quote from: DawnOday on December 10, 2016, 05:17:36 PM
Oops. Wrong. It is not a medical condition. It is something we are born with and somehow seen as a medical condition. How many people just woke up today and said..I feel like being Trans? I would bet the number is small if it existed at all. Most of the comments at Susan's has been that we realized we were different around 5 years old. In introduction after introduction the story is the same. Nobody I know has thus far had God visit them and say "You are going to be transgender, live with it.

For the purpose of his support and the simplicity of interaction i did not explain the nuances of it all. The truth is it is medically treated and dysphoria itself is a mental state that can be corrected by any number of things that largely involve doctors and pharmacists. However, I do get the nuance there.

It's something we're apparently born with but for a lot of people it has the hallmarks of a disease. It makes them feel terrible and it's not just because of the social constructs around them. I personally consider it a disease in my own case. Not passing judgement on others' cases but for me, it results in disability of sorts, and a problem and I'm happy for someone to consider it a medical condition since it's being treated medically. People commit suicide over this thing they are "born with"... it's not statistically harmless. And just like the cancer patient who is cured of cancer and goes back to their normal life after, hopefully when I am treated I can go back to mine.

That the pastor saw it as such seems quite reasonable to me, at least it is more helpful to consider trans people as having a condition through no fault of their own than being willing deviants and sinners.

Now they just need to understand it's not like being psychotic or delusional, and "mentally ill" in that sense. Since trans people can usually function as well as anyone else in society to the point of not being noticed for what they are unless they make themselves known.