Susan's Place Transgender Resources

- How important is passing for you?
- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?
- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?
- Why is passing important for you?
- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?

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I pass 100% as someone who is part man, part woman. Matters not to me what anyone thinks of it.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I just don't want to be laughed at or insulted. Which isn't much to ask. Harsh criticism about if I pass is fine by me because I know I don't pass. Passing without HRT is very rare.  If I could never? Meh.

The sad reality of life is that  human beings seem so unwilling to live up to their potential. How great a world we could have if simple kindness and love were the first principle. My reality is that regardless of whether I " pass " inspection according to others values I have a right to achieve happiness.  Sometime I think I "pass and sometimes I don't. I am stared at a whole lot for reasons I don't know why. It's either because I'm beautiful or that ape in a dress. I have just as much right as any other living entity to fulfill my life with a modest amount of happiness regardless of whether I fall within the boundaries of some objective code.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 18, 2016, 11:25:12 AM
- How important is passing for you?
- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?
- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?
- Why is passing important for you?
- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?

*  How important is it to me:  10/10
*  How do I handle brutal honest feedback?  I absolutely welcome it.  Anything that helps me to improve is always sincerely appreciated.
*  Why is it important?  Because how we're perceived by others often influences how we're treated.  I know what it's like to be "outted" and nearly lose my life over it.  I know what it's like to be denied medical care and have my identity questioned and denied because of discrimination. (And that was in a hospital ER!)   To me, being "out" is dangerous, and like most dangers, to be avoided as much as possible.
*  Why is it important?  I chose transition because my old life was miserable.  I had worldly possessions, but I didn't have happiness because I couldn't be *me*  When I found myself choosing a round to stop the misery, I resolved to either make transition work and find happiness, or eat the round and find peace.  Quite frankly, I'm glad I found happiness. 

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Not to be a downer on peoples honest thoughts, the problem with the concept of " passing " is that it inherently implies that people do not  "pass " by someone else's opinion or some standard.  What do we do with all those that because of nature and genes are unable to " pass" ,

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 18, 2016, 11:25:12 AM
- How important is passing for you?

Early on it seemed important to me and then I just got too busy living my life to have time to worry about it.

Quote- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?

Its usually me making the comments, and it's done with a laugh.

Quote- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?

I'm pretty brutal to myself so I'm still waiting for anyone else to be as brutal.

Quote- Why is passing important for you?

It isn't. Whether that's because I pass or because I stopped caring, I don't know.

Quote- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?

Appearance is a spectrum, not a hard binary. What defines passing? Who defines passing?

- How important is passing for you?

Kind of hard to answer now... I'm gendered female now, which is what I always wanted.  It might not feel as important now as it did back in the day, simply because it's now normal.


- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?

The only feedback that matters is how I'm gendered.  My ability to understand that gendering only crystallized after being immersed in environments where my narrative/medical history was unknown to others.  And see, that narrative, that history, it makes a big difference.  Among people who knew me before, many simply couldn't see the changes I'd made, because they couldn't get past their old memories.  And so their feedback was tainted.  In those few situations where I did disclose during transition (only with medical personnel or other transitioners) after being correctly gendered in the first place, it's strange... people started trying to clock me, looking for the ghost of the past. 

So the only feedback I go by anymore is how I'm gendered in my non-disclosed social milieu, which is everywhere outside of my natal family and medical personnel.  I'm called "she" in person, and always "ma'am" on the phone. The handful of times (it's literally been five in almost two decades) I've been misgendered in public, it's always been in low-impact first-chance meetings where the other person isn't paying attention -- like a cashier at the grocery store who sees me out of the corner of her eye, or when I've been silhouetted by sunlight, and in every one of these situations all I've had to do was speak ("Plastic bags, please,") or step into the light to get an immediate and apologetic correction ("Oh, I'm so sorry ma'am!"). 

I'm a big woman. I can deal with this. Cis women outside certain norms of embodiment have to deal with this too.  What we do is simply make it apparent who we are. 

That said, I do still listen to my mother when it comes to social issues. 


- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?

If the feedback is laden with intentional misgendering.


- Why is passing important for you?

I transitioned to be female, not to be trans. Gender is socially constructed; hence, who we are is a dance between our interiority and how we're reflected in other people.  We are all mirrors, in a sense.


- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?

I would have committed suicide a long, long time ago... at least spiritually.

Quote from: stephaniec on November 18, 2016, 01:30:38 PMNot to be a downer on peoples honest thoughts, the problem with the concept of " passing " is that it inherently implies that people do not  "pass " by someone else's opinion or some standard.  What do we do with all those that because of nature and genes are unable to " pass"

I for one must gender others based on their narrative. And it's usually pretty obvious, given someone's presentation, what that narrative is supposed to be.  Especially because they're not always going to get correctly gendered by the world at large.

There is an exception to this -- those who gender themselves outside or in between the binary are not going to be readily apparent.  Such gendering requires, I think, a narrative explanation, because now we're into a different kind of categorization altogether.

Quote from: kelly_aus on November 18, 2016, 02:46:23 PMIt isn't. Whether that's because I pass or because I stopped caring, I don't know.

Appearance is a spectrum, not a hard binary. What defines passing? Who defines passing?

Everyone participates in the construction of categories, and when it comes to basic-level categories like "man" and "woman" that construction (as it is with "cat" and "dog" or "chair" and "table") is almost entirely automatic and subconscious. 

But categories are not constructed like "logical sets" with clearly defined boundaries.  Rather, much like a cluster of neurons, they extend radially from a prototypical image.  Any data point (such as a person) with sufficient "family resemblance" to the prototype will be categorized as such, automatically, without conscious thought.  No single "feature" is typically necessary, at least at the sense-level of automatic perception, so much as reaching a minimum threshold of a number of features to trigger the neurons associated with the categorical prototype.

And because every brain has a different collection of experiences from which to form categories in the first place, the prototype in Jack's brain will differ from that in Jill's, which is why someone of ambiguous presentation can be gendered correctly by one and not the other; indeed, the fact that gendering is inconsistent is indication that one's presentation itself is ambiguous. However, given the widespread social consensus on the gender of 99.9% of the population, we can be assured that the prototypes in most people's heads are pretty damn similar.

Now, whether all that matters or not will likely depend on one's own internal truth (the needs of someone on the binary who is gender dysphoric are not the same for someone who is non-binary) and how attuned that person is to social context and construction; some people need to be gendered correctly in social context, while others only need a sense of correct embodiment. 

Of course, there's more to maintaining correct gendering over the long term than just embodiment (which includes voice).  Over time, socialization and narrative become quite important as well, and those are dependent on much more variable cultural contexts.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 18, 2016, 11:25:12 AM
- How important is passing for you?

Not that much. Because I don't know how well I am going to pass when I've been on T for the max length of time for it to do as much as it can do. The other reason is that it's far less important for me to pass than to be situationally aware. I've since discovered that the only reason I'm transitioning is for me, and not so that other people see me as male. They could see me as a tangerine for all I care. It's mostly down to having let go of the need for other people's opinions. But I do recognize that it's somewhat important to pass in 'dangerous' or socially risky situations.

Quote- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?

I don't care.

Quote- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?

Well, getting beat up, I suppose.

Quote- Why is passing important for you?

It's not. At this point I'm not expecting to pass 100% of the time.

Quote- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?

If I do end up passing I'm going to look like a 17 year old boy. That's good enough for me, though. People have always assumed I'm stupid because I look young. More fool them.

If I never ever pass and they keep calling me a girl, well at least I'll have the body form I want under my clothes, and the effects of T that I want. It'll be a step up from now, won't it?

I think this problem is only in the US and other highly religious countries. Most of the Europeans I've met in Thailand, and the Thai, pay little attention to gender, allowing people to define themselves and express gender as they please.

I had an apparent transmale New Zealand friend who never "came out" or tried to "pass" as male. She didn't even call herself male, or bother changing her pronouns- just lived, dressed, behaved, etc., as male, as though it was a non-issue.
It seems that only in the US are gender labels, hormones, operations, pronouns, etc. a big issue.

Same for my Thai friends. Two different teachers in Thai schools where I taught were completely transmale, yet no T or operations. They dressed and presented as males, and people treated them as males, or "Toms."

I see transwomen working modeling clothes, or sales people in shops and hotels, running bridal shops, working as tailors, apparently without operations or hormones. Sometimes they even have beards with their make up and coiffed hair, and apparently nobody cares.

I'm the same. I know I'm only partially transmale, yet consider myself mostly male, but I don't do anything special to present myself as male, since traditional Thai clothing tends to be unisex anyway, and Thai people gender me correctly as male, simply from observation.

*SNORT*

When I see a set of standards that let ALL ciswomen pass I might pay attention.

Otherwise, I find arbitrary passing criteria from strangers on the Internet to be worth exactly what I paid for them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Passing is really important for me, as I don't want to be stared at.  This is, however, something that I am working on to get over so I can just finally be myself.

- How important is passing for you?
Fairly important, at least around people who have not known me as male.

- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?
I see it as advice on how to make adjustments.

- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?
Following me around shouting insults.

- Why is passing important for you?
I like to feel natural and free.

- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?
It would make me sad.

Sebby, I feel your input on this forum is very valuable. It's easier to only say what people want to hear, than to be honest, specific and kind. I do think that takes skill and courage.

Quote from: Michelle_P on November 18, 2016, 08:16:47 PMWhen I see a set of standards that let ALL ciswomen pass I might pay attention.

Otherwise, I find arbitrary passing criteria from strangers on the Internet to be worth exactly what I paid for them.

Each of us has a set of standards by which we categorize people, automatically, subconsciously.  We're not always right, but that's rare.

It's how we know we're looking at a man, or a woman, or even someone in drag.

The importance of passing to me varies according to where I am and the situations that I am in. I haven't been misgendered since very early on in my transition. If I were to suddenly have difficulty passing in my normal everyday life, it would be nothing more than a minor annoyance because I know who and what I am, and I'm safe here. If I were on vacation in a less friendly part of the world or I had moved to another state and was living stealth, the ability to pass would absolutely increase in importance to me.

I have never solicited feedback in regards to my ability to pass, because it's never been an issue. I was gendered correctly roughly 50% of the time by strangers pre-transition. With HRT alone, that increased to 100%. So there's never been a need. What I do appreciate is feedback from my friends who are cisgender men on the topics of social cues, body language, etc. in our culture. I know I pass on a visual, macro level. Early on I made a huge effort to correct things on the micro level, and their feedback was incredibly important in getting those things "right".

I would not however, describe their feedback in any way as "brutal", and I don't think criticism ever needs to be in order to be effective. Tell me what I did well, and tell me what I need to work on. Be direct and constructive, and focus on things that are immediately changeable. I would not waste my time asking for, or place any value in the opinion of someone who would describe their feedback as brutally honest. To me, that just implies that you would rather tear down than build up. I think a lot of people who give this kind of feedback have an inflated sense of importance.

For me personally, passing is only important in terms of safety. I could care less if people see me as male, female, or somewhere in between so long as their reaction to their perception of me doesn't result in physical violence. And that also answers the final question. It wouldn't matter to me in the slightest if I never passed, as long as I had the ability to do whatever I wanted with my body in terms of surgery and I was completely physically safe when out in public. As long as I feel okay in my body and nobody's rushing over to punch me in the face or worse when I walk down the street, I could care less about how I look to them.

(As always, I prefer "being read as female" to "passing," because the former puts the emphasis where it belongs - on other people's assumptions and conclusions. I can't pass or fail at being the gender I *am,* any more than a cis person can, but I and a cis person can both be subject to mistaken impressions of that gender from other people.)

I prefer to be read as female consistently because it's a safety issue, as others have said. I no longer solicit opinions on whether I "pass" or how to do so better anymore, because in my experience, someone who is told that I'm trans and want such an opinion will stretch to find something to criticize. The only useful feedback is what people who see me in my daily life think, and at this point, I'm misgendered about the same percentage of the time as my wife (who is short and super curvy but wears masculine/unisex clothes a lot). Which is to say, once every few months, someone doesn't look closely and makes a mistake, and then realizes it immediately. I've been working at a new job around people who were not informed of my history, and while I make no effort to deny that history, it's in the *past*; it hasn't come up, and no one has noticed anything. (There was a rumor at one point that someone in my department was trans, and from what I hear, the gossip mill was split between the one lesbian and a tall young woman who was a student worker for a semester.) I also agree with FTMax that I would have second thoughts about someone who wanted to give "brutal" feedback, regardless of the topic or purpose...

Time heals all...

When I first came out to myself (important first step in my opinion) I thought that "passing" 100% was the number 1 most important thing.  Now that I'm a year into this transition and being Denise on occasion in public, I've come to this conclusion:

    I am who I am.  Nobody [strangers] cares who I am.  They may hold their gaze a little longer than before, but that's okay.

I love being myself, Denise, more and more as time passes.  I'm starting to think of myself as Denise more often as time progresses and that helps others to see me that way too.  So basically as long as I "pass as myself" I'm happy.

I've never had a stranger give negative critique but have had some positive critiques.  I would actually invite constructive comments.

Absolutely hate the expression "pass". It insinuates.... to me at least,  that you have graduated. There is no matriculation into a female state. You either are, or aren't. What we really want to to do is blend in with what we consider our new peers. If we can do that, we've accomplished our goal. Many of us are frustrated and wish to wear clothing that's inappropriate for our age or apply to much make-up in an unflattering way making us look as though were simply trying to hard. In this sense, we're our own worst enemies. The average woman dresses rather drab for the most part and we'd do much better to emulate them if we wish to blend. I find it ironic that we all want to "pass", yet many of us do things that are antithetical to that end. Such is life, I suppose. The fascination with overly feminine affectations seems to be our undoing in many cases.

In all honestly, what % of people who transition '''' pass '''. there are models that are gorgeous  , but you can tell that they have transitioned. Is that "" passing."". All right I shut up because this subject is way too triggering for me. I just wanted to say that we all have a right to happiness. Sorry.

I'm with StephanieC.

The whole "passing" thing is just a too-close relative to the sort of lookism that (cis-)women face all the time.

As others have pointed out, "passing" vs. "not passing" is not something we do.  What actually happens is that we are judged by others as being "real women" or "not real women," and that judgement depends far more on the person judging than on how we actually look or behave.

Whether cis or trans, and regardless of how we look, some people will use our appearance as an excuse to judge us women and find us wanting, or criticize and attack us, or dismiss and disparage us, or to exclude us.

I have enough issues with my body as it is; the last thing I need to do is to also submit myself to the judgement of hostile strangers.  (And if you're dissing me for "not passing," I don't care who you are, you're now a hostile stranger to me!)

Asche makes a very good point.  It is also worth bearing in mind that the whole pass/don't pass thing is something that I see primarily from the 'More Trans Than Thou' crowd.

Yeah, classism within the trans community.   :P  Like we need more divisive behaviors.

Thailand seems to be the place to be if you want to escape the US religious gender binary convention.

Thai Buddhism allows a Third Gender so few transgender Thai take hormones or have operations and mixed gender presentations are acceptable-they simply dress in the way that makes them most comfortable.

Two months ago a visiting Thai school director wore a beautiful pantsuit, had coiffed hair, makeup, and jewelry, with masculine body, manner, deep voice, etc. Nobody else at the meeting seemed to notice or care.

But it's not just the Thai..Europeans I meet here, and many Filipino friends are so gender ambiguous it's difficult to tell their birth genders also. Asians believe in yin and yang; that we are both female and male on a gender sliding scale, which science confirms.

I had no idea the US was so gender binary-bound until I came here.

- If you'd have asked me a year ago how important being consistently read as male was, I'd have said it was my #1 goal. Prior to HRT or surgery, my two biggest downfalls were my voice (low for a female, but... definitely not a male range) and my chest. If neither of those things were noticed, I tended to be correctly gendered.
After having been on HRT for a little over a year now, I'm never misgendered. Choosing to have top surgery before starting HRT was one of my best decisions, I think; HRT made my voice drop quickly and that, in conjunction with the flat chest, really worked in my favor. Two months in and I was solid.
If someone used female pronouns with me at this point... honestly, I'd probably just see it as a mistake, chuckle and shrug it off.

- To be honest, I've never been brutally criticized by anyone but myself. Pre-everything, I'd imagine that I'd have taken it rather hard. I'm really just living my life at this point, though, and I don't put too much stock into the opinions of others when it comes to my appearance or preferences.

- Like I said... I was the one beating myself up and there were no means too brutal. My internal dialogue was terribly unhealthy and pushed me towards feeling suicidal more times than I'd care to admit.

- It used to be important to me because I felt invisible--akin to a parasite mechanically controlling an unwitting host--and meaningless. These days, being seen as the man that I am is important to me simply because it just feels right. I no longer waste the vast majority of my day away concocting any number of gimmicks to 'pass' (IE: carefully layering, binding, hunching, avoiding speaking, only wearing certain clothes, etc) that only semi work for me. It's really freed up my life and given me a newfound confidence in all aspects. I'm no longer invisible.

- There are few greater miseries that I could imagine than being read as a female for the rest of my life. If that were the case... I don't think it would've been a particularly lengthy existence. I only made it to 28 before I was broken enough to justify a major rebuild.

Quote from: Michelle_P on November 19, 2016, 07:33:41 PM
Asche makes a very good point.  It is also worth bearing in mind that the whole pass/don't pass thing is something that I see primarily from the 'More Trans Than Thou' crowd.

Yeah, classism within the trans community.   :P  Like we need more divisive behaviors.

I would say this is the most divisive issue among people with gender dysphoria.  In large part because it's the basis for how gender is socially constructed by the world at large, and hence has tremendous implications for those afflicted with GD.  Don't bury your head in the sand -- it plays a huge part in how the rest of the world will treat you. 

Also divisive is the idea that one is actually the gender of one's identity, and not "trans" (which can be just a temporary "transitory" state of being). Which makes the "more trans than thou" observation rather ironic.

I got kicked out a women's homeless shelter for not "passing" well enough. It's moderately important to me, but I just started HRT and I also don't have a lot of fem clothes yet. So I have to make due with what I got.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 18, 2016, 11:25:12 AM
- How important is passing for you?

Pretty important. I don't want to be a trans female. I want to be a CIS Lesbian. XD

Quote
- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?

I still haven't gone out, until I'm "sure" I will mostly pass. I actually have an idea I may try, if trying it in cosplay at a distant convention first, since I'm into those anyhow.

Quote
- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?

Depends... what can you take? A former minister told me that socially, you want to take things said in the best possible way. Why? Because even if they mean you verbal harm, you're not granting them that power... So how brutal something is, verbally, is really relative to how you read into it, or how sensitive you are.

Quote
- Why is passing important for you?

This may seem to contradict my last point, but social things was never my strength... mostly because I associated more with the female ways of things for a while, even though I never considered being female was acceptable/possible.

Quote
- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?

I personally get great benefits from the HRT, outside of trying to pass as a female later. I'd probably keep on the HRT, and just live as what I could only pass as... but that's for me personally, because only half of my issue is GID itself... at least I'd be at comfort, knowing I'm better off than how I started... and no longer bound to psychiatric pills that sometimes are used just to control people.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 18, 2016, 11:25:12 AM
- How important is passing for you?
- How do you handle brutally honest feedback/criticism/opinions at your passing?
- How brutal is too brutal for you when it comes to feedback at passing abilities?
- Why is passing important for you?
- What would you think if you would never pass regardless what you did and that you would always look like the opposite gender?

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If I were to be given a choice right now, to pass or not to pass I would choose the one where I was accepted by society as a whole living as a woman.  As it stands right now, I'm not on HRT yet, but passing is not the reason I am proceeding in the direction I am going.  I am doing this for me, not the rest of the world.

If I am unable to pass ever, I will live in stealth mode I believe.  I have grown used to being rather invisible to the world, and will carry on in such a manner.  Large baggy cargo shorts, large button up shirts, a hat.. it works for me.

The world may never see me, as the person I feel I have always been, but I will at the very least feel to be closer to being a woman.  It begs an interesting question that has been on my mind for a while, and that is exactly what is gender, is it defined by others?  If I accept myself for being a woman, is that not good enough?  The clothes, the jewelry, the perfect body frame, yes they are nice, but for me not a requirement.  Women need not wear the most elaborate of clothes, they can dress in jeans and a t-shirt, with no make up and that is fine in my case as well.

As I stated at the beginning of the post though, I would love to pass, but at this point in my life it is not as important as transitioning itself and being happy with myself.

If you found yourself to be the sole survivor of some sort of hypothetical apocalypse, where you there was no one to judge you, would your appearance be as important to you, or would self acceptance be the ultimate pursuit?  (I love hypothetical scenarios, sorry :) )

With all of the above said, who knows what I will be thinking once I start HRT, I'm not sure to what extent it will change my personality.  Also, I am hardly a voice of reason in such matters, as I have and remain to be in the closet. 

Well said, Zamber!

Most cis women wear comfortable jeans, T-shirts, flats, and little make up, unless going to work or on a date. But I suppose if someone is nervous about passing as female it would be easy to overcompensate.

I'm only partially trans so not concerned about "passing"-I just wear what I want, and that is usually androgynous clothing. If I buy casual clothes from a store, it's almost always from the men's section since they have the better quality T-shirts, sandals, sweatsuits, etc. Anything frilly or feminine embarrasses me.

But I make no attempt to pass as any particular gender since I'm androgynous..about 60% trans. Thai people usually correctly gender me just from the jaunty way I carry myself, though.

My ex recently emailed that she is planning to transition to live as a non-binary woman. We are both in our 60s and she already has the heavy male features from decades of testosterone, is 6' 1", balding, with wide shoulders, long arms, and thick body hair, yet she doesn't seem worried about passing and is very cavalier about it, so much so I am slightly suspicious of her story.
But maybe she is only about 60% trans also.