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It has come up several times, mostly while talking to women, that they are frequently unhappy with there body too. How do you describe the difference between gender dysphoria and generally not being happy with your body. I am failing to come up with good talking points on this to help people understand.

Major difference would be that the women that hate their bodies still feel like women.  They most likely hate their bodies because they don't measure up to some ridiculous ideal that society pushes on them.

It has recently occurred to me that for me personally; it isn't helpful to try to distinguish disliking my body and gender dysphoria.  There is a lot of overlap.  But it isn't difficult at all to determine that some parts are clearly dysphoria. 
    A good example for me is my weight.  I used to be fat.(about 80 lbs heavier). I didn't like my body and wanted to change it.  If asked I would have described my ideal body as a muscular chisseled visage of godhood.  So I tried and initially lost 100 lbs.  I was elated.  I felt so strong, fast, and mobile!  I wasn't like a movie star, but no one would call me fat, and my physical abilities were getting impressive.(for me lol) And then it suddenly occured to me that my favorite new feature was my long slim legs; because it reminded me of a woman's.  I also became reluctant to cut my hair and began practicing feminine poses.  A couple years later, it's becoming clearer to me that the negativity about my body was replaced by 2 aspects.  In the new feelings toward my body, half is positive because I am physically fitter and closer to what I feel makes an attractive man; and the other half of my feeling is very negative because I'm still not a woman.  Being this relatively close to looking like a woman has made me very aware of how flat and straight my body is. 
     If there were not an element of dysphoria here, I would just buff up more and become that perfect male body, but now I'm close enough to realize that I really want to be female.  My take is that in my life, there is no way to perfectly separate body dislike from gender dysphoria, but I do have both and they are very connected.


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Hi Yuusui,

Gender dysphoria means feeling unwell about your gender. In reality it a spectrum of what a person is focused on ( it changes ) and the level of discomfort from mild to life threatening. Also, the rumination can get extreme.

Unhappy with ones body and having the correct genitalia is different than choosing suicide or having suicidal ideation  because ones genitalia is wrong.

I had GCS 2 weeks ago and have not had suicidal ideation in the past two weeks. That may sound like a small change but part of me was suicidal ideation. It was there and I thought about it several times a day. I had made many attempts starting from age 11. Now I am not in that frame of mind; I want to live. I still want changes to my body. My hair is curly and I want straight hair, oh well. My tummy is a bit too large and I want a flat tummy, I will get there. I have a clubbed toe on each foot and in sandals I am self conscious, I am ok with my feet and if it really bothered me I could get them straightened.

I would give an example of being under water and holding ones breath for as long as you can. The moment before you lunge for the surface there is a feeling of extreme need to breath. That feeling is the feeling of dysphoria. It hurts and over time it causes self medication ( drugs and alcohol abuse), isolation, hiding, self hatred, compartmentalization ( loss of feeling and caring), cutting and suicidal ideation.

I think it is similar in that all women constantly find flaws in our bodies appearence. We are women in mind as well aren't we even if not born that way? The disphoria can be a lot deeper but experiences are individual and personal.

It's one thing to not be happy with a portion of your body's appearence but another to feel like you are in the wrong body and to have society pressure you to behave in a way that is not natural but forced upon you.

Rachel, not a single feeling of self harm in two weeks, that's beautiful in itself. Thinking about that made me cry. I hope I can get to that point someday. I've never tried, but ther is always some vague presence of the idea lurking.

I came out to a long-time friend yesterday and she asked "what does the dysphoria feel like."  And this is what I/we came up with:

1) Imagine extreme jealousy at 1/2 the population
2) Imagine waking up in the morning thinking - Crap, still a <insert gender here>
3) Imagine thinking about gender ALL THE TIME.  Not just my own, but gender in general, to the point of distraction.
4) Imagine an anger that doesn't go away
    Note: This is how my dysphoria manifests(ed) itself.  Since starting on anti-T and "E" I've not gotten angry - not even road rage and I drive into Chicago for work!
5) [Note, this has happened to me only 3 times] Imagine realizing that being <current gender> is a lot of work, all the pretending, false hoods, fake everything.  Living a lie.

ALL of this goes away when I'm Denise (about 6 hours/week at this point).  Even #3 which really surprises me.  The voices in my head are totally quite when Denise comes out.

I don't like being overweight but being male makes me feel nauseous. That's the difference for me

I have never hated my body at all.  It was actually a very good body.  It just wasn't the right one.  So, I guess that while I did not hate my body, I did hate the situation it left me with.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Denise on December 01, 2016, 11:22:00 AM
I came out to a long-time friend yesterday and she asked "what does the dysphoria feel like."  And this is what I/we came up with:

1) Imagine extreme jealousy at 1/2 the population
2) Imagine waking up in the morning thinking - Crap, still a <insert gender here>
3) Imagine thinking about gender ALL THE TIME.  Not just my own, but gender in general, to the point of distraction.
4) Imagine an anger that doesn't go away
    Note: This is how my dysphoria manifests(ed) itself.  Since starting on anti-T and "E" I've not gotten angry - not even road rage and I drive into Chicago for work!
5) [Note, this has happened to me only 3 times] Imagine realizing that being <current gender> is a lot of work, all the pretending, false hoods, fake everything.  Living a lie.

ALL of this goes away when I'm Denise (about 6 hours/week at this point).  Even #3 which really surprises me.  The voices in my head are totally quite when Denise comes out.

100% this!

I simply had no connection to my body before I started HRT. I didn't care if I was overweight, I didn't even realize it. I didn't use any products on my entire body except for shower gel and shaving cream on my face.

I started losing weight about 9 months prior to HRT. I went from 215lbs to 170 at 5'12" (I like that better than 6' [emoji1]) and regained about 5 lbs thanks to E.... But in the right places...lol.

These days I notice every little pimple immediately. In the old days, I didn't notice them at all.

As a male I hated seeing pictures of myself. I can't really explain it but it felt like this wasn't really me. Now... Oh well... I take multiple selfies every day. I probably have more pictures of me from the last 9 months than from the previous 40+ years. It's insane...


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The first question I asked my therapist 30 months ago was, "What does it mean when you like females but would much rather be one."  For me I would see a particular female face or body and get the almost overpowering sense and desire that "I could look like that" or "I could have that body".  For me the desire was there since adolescence but I kept it buried so deep that I only recognized it fully when I pulled it to the surface in therapy.  It's hard for cis gender people to understand this because it is so much a part of who we really are and they can't see, or maybe better put, they can't "feel" this.  So I try to explain my inner feelings to them as best as I can but it is difficult sometimes.

Quote from: jamie1964c on December 02, 2016, 08:09:53 AM
The first question I asked my therapist 30 months ago was, "What does it mean when you like females but would much rather be one."  For me I would see a particular female face or body and get the almost overpowering sense and desire that "I could look like that" or "I could have that body".  For me the desire was there since adolescence but I kept it buried so deep ...

I hope the therapist said "a lesbian," paused, then chuckled.

You have hit upon EXACTLY what I've been feeling since I was 4. (50 years ago)

Quote from: jamie1964c on December 02, 2016, 08:09:53 AM
The first question I asked my therapist 30 months ago was, "What does it mean when you like females but would much rather be one."  For me I would see a particular female face or body and get the almost overpowering sense and desire that "I could look like that" or "I could have that body".  For me the desire was there since adolescence but I kept it buried so deep that I only recognized it fully when I pulled it to the surface in therapy.  It's hard for cis gender people to understand this because it is so much a part of who we really are and they can't see, or maybe better put, they can't "feel" this.  So I try to explain my inner feelings to them as best as I can but it is difficult sometimes.

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With warmth,

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Ugh, i wrote a long reply and it dissappeared. Anyway hon, i describe it this way,

I used to be fat, i'm now a 144 pounds (i gained 2 pounds got to get back to 142 lol) and i'm 5'11 to i'd say i'm thin but because i was fat once, i have horrible stretch marks all over my body, i hate it to me that's hating my body.

Gender Dypshoria to me is muich deeper, is the feeling that what you are isn't right. Emotionally, psysichally, mentally...so much more in my opinion then i just want boobs and a Vajay-jay. It's wanting to live every aspect of your life as a women, and dysphoria is the pain you feel when you can't do that because of the disconnect in your brain and body and because you have the brain of *insert gender* you feel wrong having your birth parts, whether it be boobs, muscle defininition and private areas.

i hope i did well lol.

Please excuse the stream of consciousness, its ugly...

Dysphoria, it's all wrong, a nip, plump or tuck, gained or lost weight, a change of colour, all don't make a huge difference, because inside we feel our bodies and expressions are wrong, a no-match, antisocietal misfit.
Dysphoria is running against the tide, wearysome, a have to turn about and change everything, for ease and grace and self to return, not a pebble in the stream minor diversion, a desire to be comfortable, not acutely aware, a desire to be in the flow, not on the bank watching
Dysphoria is not existence, dissatisfaction at its finest, the knowledge that a wipe of fate on the sands of history we would cease existing, and are at peace with that, not making sure we exist to the max, not a tweaked, polished, refined best we that we could ever possibly be
Dysphoria is a fight, for fleeting moments when the current runs with us, and the world feels right, an all consuming silent torment, the water and pebble wearing down to a new form, with eddies which change from moment to moment.
Dysphoria is the deep seated moire. It is home to fear, to knowledge of falsehood, to exposure to the hail of shards, a continuous justification that a little more would be a little less painful. It's pumping the tank of life when that tank is empty, and all the while a supertanker lies idly by, gathering cobwebs of neglect and shame
Dysphoria is a cause shown, alluded, pointed out by others, when the response is instinctively divergent to the standard programmed condition, not the careful refinement of a form given, or desires driven by the winds of the norm, a changing expression or desire in form

It's the feminine in a masculine role, whilst the masculine is feminine, or part, or none of the above, it's when you encounter a world and say that's weird, where weird is challenged expectation, to the point where it is a distraction.

I cooked and cleaned my heart out this last weekend for friends, with the help of my partner. The role reversal was so stark that it caught some of our friends completely off guard. Their comments in the beginning were 'weird', not unpleasant, but challenged expectations of how the world works. My very close friends know that it's at times like that, when I can express myself, and demonstrate my love.

I would love minor inconvenience to be a major irritation ;)

Rowan

The difference is between say -

My nose and my boobs.

I don't love my nose, it's kind of small. It could have done with growing for a bit longer. But I've given up caring about that and put on the "whatever" mental shelf a long time ago. It's just a body part that "could be better".

Boobs on the other hand, always felt wrong, still feel wrong... and after 37 years of exactly the same I am pretty confident will always feel wrong. My nose "could be better" but it's still my nose. These boobs feel like someone else's body parts and it's awful.

I am not sure where the dysphoria starts and the dislike starts, let alone where they meet and end... it's all a blur to me. It's safe to say that any dislike of parts of my body can be blamed upon being trans, and that is something I am very well aware off. It is difficult to be objective when you are the subject yourself...

For a close to 40 year old woman, I think I look good compared to woman of my age. But when I compare myself to someone who started around the age of 20, well, I can't compete with that. But neither can my cis-peer group. So I simply quit looking at females that are above or below my age, and I started to look at females that are around my age. When I do, I think I do very well...  ;)

Quote from: Denise on December 01, 2016, 11:22:00 AM
I came out to a long-time friend yesterday and she asked "what does the dysphoria feel like."  And this is what I/we came up with:

1) Imagine extreme jealousy at 1/2 the population
2) Imagine waking up in the morning thinking - Crap, still a <insert gender here>
3) Imagine thinking about gender ALL THE TIME.  Not just my own, but gender in general, to the point of distraction.
4) Imagine an anger that doesn't go away
    Note: This is how my dysphoria manifests(ed) itself.  Since starting on anti-T and "E" I've not gotten angry - not even road rage and I drive into Chicago for work!
5) [Note, this has happened to me only 3 times] Imagine realizing that being <current gender> is a lot of work, all the pretending, false hoods, fake everything.  Living a lie.

ALL of this goes away when I'm Denise (about 6 hours/week at this point).  Even #3 which really surprises me.  The voices in my head are totally quite when Denise comes out.

I would agree this 95% of this with a few changes....

5) this has been a constant with me...my male disguise is incredible work, pretending and lying is exhausting.....feels like a costume.  This was one of my main breaking points and still is difficult until I can fully be out

And for me, unfortunately some of these never go away when the disguise comes off.....I'm still jealous of pretty ladies, even when wearing my true wardrobe elements of my body are incredibly dysphoric and regardless of outfit/expression I still feel major frustration at being born in the incorrect form, and being "forced" to hide it for so long.

Quote from: staciM on December 07, 2016, 08:06:25 PM
I would agree this 95% of this with a few changes....

5) this has been a constant with me...my male disguise is incredible work, pretending and lying is exhausting.....feels like a costume.  This was one of my main breaking points and still is difficult until I can fully be out
...

Staci, for me I've always "known" I was being fake but in a few cases/instants it was a total sub conscience realization.  Every fiber in my body screamed at once "Being a woman is right, being a man is wrong."  I don't know how to explain it other than it was a feeling that washed over me right down to the core like a warm blanket.  It was the strangest sensation I'd felt ever.
- Dee

Quote from: JessicaSondelli on December 01, 2016, 12:16:19 PM
I simply had no connection to my body before I started HRT. I didn't care if I was overweight, I didn't even realize it. I didn't use any products on my entire body except for shower gel and shaving cream on my face.

I started losing weight about 9 months prior to HRT. I went from 215lbs to 170 at 5'12" (I like that better than 6' [emoji1]) and regained about 5 lbs thanks to E.... But in the right places...lol.

These days I notice every little pimple immediately. In the old days, I didn't notice them at all.

As a male I hated seeing pictures of myself. I can't really explain it but it felt like this wasn't really me. Now... Oh well... I take multiple selfies every day. I probably have more pictures of me from the last 9 months than from the previous 40+ years. It's insane...


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Acne was a big problem for me. Aside from feeling ugly, it was painful. Physically and mentally. Add to this the hate for my third leg. My inability to socialize and the prospect of feeling happy all led to my total dislike of who I was. I always had a question of what it would be like to be. Shirley Temple, Barbara Feldon and that sexy voice, Jacquelyn Smith, Emma Peel  . Now I think of what it would be like to be Carmen Carrera or Gigi Gorgeous. I know I'm vain. But that is one trait that makes me feel like a woman. When I look at a woman, I don't think, Boy I bet she would be good in bed. Instead it is, I wonder what I would look like in that dress. Dang I wish they had boots that fit. The thing that made me most angry was that my sister was always beautiful and was competition.

Quote from: Denise on December 08, 2016, 09:06:12 AM
Staci, for me I've always "known" I was being fake but in a few cases/instants it was a total sub conscience realization.  Every fiber in my body screamed at once "Being a woman is right, being a man is wrong."  I don't know how to explain it other than it was a feeling that washed over me right down to the core like a warm blanket.  It was the strangest sensation I'd felt ever.
- Dee

Dee, makes total sense....I completely understand what you mean.

Staci

gender dysphoria is simply in regards to aspects of gender, its anything about yourself that you see as being from opposite gender (male characteristics if your a transwoman and vs versa for transmen) which causes you to hate that thing about yourself and your body, it becomes disturbing to you and it works its way into how you see yourself,  one gets emotional and psychological relief when these things are corrected or less pronounced with HRT or by surgery!
If there are other aspects that you dislike about your self that are not related to seeing characteristics of the opposite gender, then this would be more like as being body image ie Im too fat , im too tall ect..


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Quote from: Yuusui on December 01, 2016, 07:53:26 AM
It has come up several times, mostly while talking to women, that they are frequently unhappy with there body too. How do you describe the difference between gender dysphoria and generally not being happy with your body. I am failing to come up with good talking points on this to help people understand.

Well to me they're both pretty distinct issues but since they both relate to body image there is a little overlap. The main difference however is, dysphoria is dislike of your body because it isnt female/male enough and being unhappy with your body doesn't have any gender related dislike just general dislike of some feature.

For example, I don't like how masculine my shoulders and arms are because they look like a guy's and that makes me umcomfortable and less girly showing them.

My older sister on the other hand doesn't like that her butt isn't as big as she wants it to be and wishes it were bigger.

I thought about this question a lot when I was on my way to identifying as trans*. These examples are how I tell the difference, so I'm using all "I" statements, but this can be generally applicable to anyone.

General dislike: I feel connected to my body, but I hate my body. (i.e: I look in the mirror and hate that I've gain/lost weight. I lament this fact, but still feel that my body is unfortunately my own)

Dysphoria: You feel disconnected from your body, yet you may like or dislike your body. (i.e: I look in the mirror and appreciate my body on some days, but feel like I'm checking out a stranger in my reflection. to further explain, if I saw someone on the street with my shape and parts, I'd think they're hot/attractive/nice looking. However, this body is not for me, and yes, thinking about that makes me quite sad.)

General Dislike AND Dysphoria: You feel disconnected from your body and you think your shell is unappealing IN GENERAL. (i.e: i hate what I see in the mirror because I find it unappealing, and I feel disconnected from what I see, which typically compounds my level of hatred)

Sidenote -- I do not believe dysphoria is limited to just trans* people. What makes gender dysphoria different from other forms is that the thought of "My body is not my own" is compounded with the sincere need and belief to present as the opposing gender, which, when practiced, relieves the pain of dysphoria.

Being an FTM raised by women and attempting to pass as one for many years, the difference comes down to hating my body because it is perceived as female vs hating parts for not being good enough. I have experienced both: hating my breasts and genitals because they were not the kind I though I should have vs hating my fat stomach because it isn't atractive or healthy.

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when you think about the opposite of gender dysphoria which is "gender congruence" (agreement, compatibility, harmony) within your gender , it helps to get a clearer definition! btw dysphoria can be about different issues being " a state of mental discomfort or suffering" gender dysphoria is only in regards to gender!


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Hi Bluepaint,

Isn't it amazing how much our perspectives align as a community...

Quote from: Sno on December 06, 2016, 04:52:04 PM
..because inside we feel our bodies and expressions are wrong, a no-match, antisocietal misfit.
.. a desire to be comfortable, not acutely aware, a desire to be in the flow, not on the bank watching
... is a cause shown, alluded, pointed out by others, when the response is instinctively divergent to the standard programmed condition

My feelings are that the differentiation between dysphoria and dismorphia is one of perspective, one is from the inside, out (we can't change our expression and communication so we need to change our bodies to match them), versus the outside in of dismorphia, (too skinny, too tall, too short, too... ) .


Rowan

I don't find it a difficult thing to comprehend or explain when I look at it like this -

if any cis man or cis woman you know was forced to wake up tomorrow with the wrong genitals and body parts, and be treated the opposite gender, what kind of psychological impact would it have on them and what amount of impact.

I'm pretty confident in thinking a vast majority are not going to be "ok" with the new body they didn't ask for, and the new social role they are probably not comfortable in. I imagine many would need some heavy-duty psychological help to cope with it, if they could cope at all.

From my perspective this is precisely how dysphoria and being trans in general feels.

TKGW I'd say you are right when you put it that way. Perhaps that is the best way to express it to a cis person I think I have ever seen.

I wrote a really long answer (mostly for myself) to a question on quora from a cis male wanting to know what trans people experience. This was my final thought on that post. I felt it might make sense to cis men especially.


"For non trans people I think the best way I could describe being trans mentally is that every day you wake up and your brain is wired to expect a body you do not have. Imagine a set of wires that have no place to connect to so are shorted together. It can be like having a constant mental pain. Pain without the physical sensation of it. Perhaps that's the most accurate comparison."

its been an interesting thread! You can see that in so many ways we share much in how we feel and yet there are some very personal and distinct ways of seeing this as well! We are very much alike yet very different and this is great! I love hearing what my trans family thinks and feels! [emoji177]JulieC.


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Thanks for all of the replies! It has giving me many ideas for future conversations. Keep it going!

I had this discussion with my sister-in-law several weeks back. 

She had said something about it being really hard to get her head around, and there was an awkward pause.  I moved over and sat down next to her, looked straight into her eyes, and with a very serious expression said, "Look, I'm pretty uncomfortable with this.  It's not you, just the way you look.  I'd feel better talking about this with you if you could just do a couple of things for me from now on.  I'd like you to dress in plain clothing, maybe a man's plaid shirt and jeans.  Stop using makeup, and cut your hair nice and short.  Maybe do something about your chest.  Talk in a deeper voice.  Maybe start doing guy stuff.  If you could just do that every day from now on I'd appreciate it."

She was sort of taken aback at first, then figured out what I was doing.  I told her to recall that first moment of discomfort she felt when I said this, and imagine it being there 24 hours a day for the rest of her life.  That's part of gender dysphoria.


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Quote from: Yuusui on December 01, 2016, 07:53:26 AM
How do you describe the difference between gender dysphoria and generally not being happy with your body.

I tend to see it quite simply.

I don't hate my body. I hate that it's mine.

I fully appreciate that this is an incredibly hard thing for people not suffering with dysphoria to understand. It's a fundamental difference in perception, and one not easily explained.

The closest approximation I can give is this: Suppose you were wearing a pair of shoes that were two sizes too small. Changing those shoes to be the most expensive, most fashionable, most utterly gorgeous, envy-inspiring, jaw dropping shoes in the world would do no good if they were still two sizes too small, hurt your feet, and you couldn't walk properly in them.

You don't need shoes that look better, you need shoes that fit better.

I actually don't hate my body. In many ways I quite like it, especially since I lost a lot of weight. I have nice legs, and even without breasts look pretty cute... I think so anyway  lol And not bad for 59 years old.

What I dislike is my face. Well parts of it... like my nose, and my long upper lip, and lack of lips in general. Although I can look pretty good with makeup on (as in my avatar), but I'm not in anyway passible, except in a dark club or something. Plus I have a fairly coarse beard that needs to be removed. :(

So all my dysphoria is centered on my face.