Susan's Place Transgender Resources

what decrease testosterone the most spironolactone at a average dose for male to female transsexuals or estrogen?i ask because every time i have even attemted estrogen i have felt awful but can tolerate spironolactone,will spiro help reduce enough test

Only your doctor and blood tests can say what reduces it more. You probably need to pick something and stay on it for 3 mos and then have your blood tested. Everybody is different....or, you are unique just like everybody else!!

Both can do the job of shutting down the testes,
but spiro has the advantage of also blocking T
at the receptors. That means your also not getting
the T from the adrenals.

I wouldn't advise just doing spiro for more than a year
because there's a almost 100% chance that you'll
get osteoporosis out of that long term.

So, you at least need a low dose of estrogen for the bones even if your taking spiro (unless its short term).l

thanks keira,well spiro is going to be long term,i will tyr estrogen in the next year when i have changed jobs,however i want my body to stay the same at the moment as i don't want to arouse suspision,would a medium dose of spiro cause my breasts to grow,this is what i want long term but defintley not at the moment for the reasons i have mentioned ,basically i am only taking spiro for test reduce?

Hi,
    You could also check out, NIZORAL. It is also a Tblocker.
When I was preop, my Tlevel wasn't going down enough. I read about the nizoral and my endo was willing to give it a go. It did the trick. It may work better, but one can not predict results all the time. I can relate to the estrogen part. I"m postop 10 yrs now, and the amount I take is almost nothing compaired to most other people. If I were to take the dose others use, in the course of a few days I get very ancy, and hostile. No one could ever figure out why. By 3 months postop my Tlevel went to
a 8-10. It still is to this day. That's lower than a "GG" !. Amazing what happens when you get rid of un-wanted body parts :).

                                                              Jennifer

Quote from: Lori on November 06, 2007, 11:34:42 AM
Only your doctor and blood tests can say what reduces it more. You probably need to pick something and stay on it for 3 mos and then have your blood tested. Everybody is different....or, you are unique just like everybody else!!

I agree with Lori.  When I started HRT it was with spironolactone as an androgen blocker and my doc ordered blood work done every two weeks for the first three months, then every month thereafter. 

Nothing in HRT is a "one size fits all."

Wing Walker

Quote from: dean1972 on November 06, 2007, 11:28:46 AM
what decrease testosterone the most spironolactone at a average dose for male to female transsexuals or estrogen?i ask because every time i have even attemted estrogen i have felt awful but can tolerate spironolactone,will spiro help reduce enough test

spironolactone definitely...

I take spiro, and it works for me. However, that is just me, some people react differently. Levels should tell you what's going on. When I started spiro my T levels were 2.5, and now they are 0.5. Although, one shouldn't compare my levels to there, since my levels aren't very common for the dose I'm taking. 6-8 is pretty common when you're on spiro... your doctor should be able to tell you what your levels are with your blood tests. As long as your levels are in the female range, you are fine. Lower isn't always better.

Over here the docs use spiro unless it doesn't work on you, and then they'll sometimes do a combo of spiro and something else.

If you "want to stay the same" but reduce your T, you're levels will need to be a bit higher than the average girl, but a bit lower than the average guy. Lower levels of T could cause you to grow breasts, actually, cause your body already produces some E. Ask your doctor about it, of course.


--natalie

SRS

Quote from: Keira on November 06, 2007, 01:55:20 PM

I wouldn't advise just doing spiro for more than a year
because there's a almost 100% chance that you'll
get osteoporosis out of that long term.

A calcium suppliment, etc should counteract that though.  FWIW, TSs over thirty should also include a baby asprin in their routine.  For that matter, its not a bad idea of all of us to include it.

A calcium supplement WONT help.

Men and women need estrogen for their bones or their bones will start to fall appart. In Men, testosterone aromatized into estrogen is what keeps bone density. That's why at menopause women get into trouble, they're estrogen source is cut off and the adrenals don't provide enough T for the T -> E conversion to produce enough E to fully conserve the bones.

Even if calcium's in the body, who's helps use it, it doesn't find it way into the bone by itself.

Hi
I have been using spironolactone and estrogen, estradiol valerate, the injectable type, one shot every two weeks and I am happy with the results. Lost a bit of muscle mass but it looks better where it is as fat. Anyway I have my soul mate that does the container opening for me. Well a little less messy then If take the colt forty five out of my underwear drawer. not bad taking into consideration I was anorexic for ten years when I decided to start full time. I looked like a survivor my soul mate use to tell me. Now my face has also filled out  and the skin is softer. A woman seven years in the making. My soul mate dotes over me and I fit comfortably under her arm pit "hee, hee, hee". And if she pets my hair I will also purrrrrrrrrrr.

Cindy

Quote from: Keira on November 09, 2007, 07:42:29 PM

A calcium supplement WONT help.

Men and women need estrogen for their bones or their bones will start to fall appart. In Men, testosterone aromatized into estrogen is what keeps bone density. That's why at menopause women get into trouble, they're estrogen source is cut off and the adrenals don't provide enough T for the T -> E conversion to produce enough E to fully conserve the bones.

Even if calcium's in the body, who's helps use it, it doesn't find it way into the bone by itself.

Do you have research to back this up (I really would be interested in seeing it if you do) or is this based on your own personal experiences?  I will agree that there is some question as to whether Calcium actually helps maintiain bone density, but the National Osteoporosis Foundation states:

"Most published studies show that low calcium intake is associated with low bone mass, rapid bone loss and high fracture rates."
http://www.nof.org/prevention/calcium_supplements.htm (http://www.nof.org/prevention/calcium_supplements.htm)

As for Spiro, this study supports its bone density sparing properties:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/4/1250 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/4/1250)

There's plenty of studies on estrogen's link to bone density.
Probably hundreds if not thousands. So, I won't list them, google is your friend :-). The scholars research in particular can help here.

Initially, they believed T was responsible for keeping bone mass, but its mainly estrogen. T's more important in building bone density, but estrogen has a role too. T's role in building density is mostly before the age of 30. If you cut off T and don't have estrogen at that age, it is not good at all.

Women, have less T, so the bones are not as big and dense (they also carry less weight and are under less stress from the muscles, this builds the bones). That's why, even with similar deficience in estrogen, they will suffer more.


Spiro's impact on bone density is because if its used in men, it reduces testosterone thus reducing estrogen levels in the body. Men have quite a bit of estrogen, its just that they've got even more T. The T to estrogen ratio in men and women is inverted.

you lot are all liars,telling me that oral spironolactone would stop my balding with avodart,why don't you tell me the truth and tell me that nothing will stop hair loss.
I mean is it not bad enough that god put me in the wrong body,then when i take steps to correct is mistake he makes me lose my hair the most femine feature you can have,hell is a place on earth if you are me,what did i do to deserve all this bad luck

I'm quoting my memory of Anatomy & Physiology (the class, not the concept) so I might not be 100% correct, but its actually estrogen that causes growth of the long bones to occur, and a surge of estrogen, during late stage puberty in both males and females, that seals the growth plate (quite literally) and causes the bones to stop growing.

I'm not 100% on the role of estrogen in bone DENSITY, but just on its impact on the growth plate there has to be some.

You refer to the role exercise plays on bone health and that's true too.  I think we started this tangent of the thread by saying "I wouldn't advise just doing spiro for more than a year
because there's a almost 100% chance that you'll get osteoporosis out of that long term."  And actually now that I've cut and pasted that, I've added the emphasis to just.  Amazing what happens when you re-read something.  :)

Back to bone denisties for a minute, you mention the role of muscle mass in building bone density.  The simple answer would be adding even just light exercise should help counteract the osteoporosis effects when all else fails.  Simply keeping the joints moving is good advice for anyone.

Back to the just Spiro routine and I'll wrap this up.  By definintion women have high levels of estrogen and low levels of testosterone (yeah there are always exceptions, but I'm trying to keep this simple), men have high levels of testosterone and low levels of estrogen.  Sex hormones have more then just an impact on sexual behaviors and secondary characteristics.  If you really want to know all of them, a web search will turn up a treasure trove.  Nothing human has low levels of both.  Not even pre-pubescent children.

On another note, sort of along the same lines, in researching my earlier post I came across some articles on the use of GnRH agonists (think blockers) to delay puberty in gender variant children.  Current research is showing some level of success in its application, but there have been no long term studies, yet, to thoroughly validate its effectiveness.  GnRH agonists got their start in treating early puberty in non-gender variant children, long term studies in that population cite some link to their use and infertility later in life.

The point is its pretty tricky to be messing with sex hormones for a number of reasons, and to block or inhibit one with out balancing it with its opposing hormone is incredibly risky on multiple levels (biologically, psychologically, etc).

There is a danger of delaying puberty, especially in boys, by diminishing T too low. There's a big buildup of bone density in adolescence linked to T. T acts on the longitudinal section of the bone while estrogen acts on the length.

They did a study on TS's on the effect of estrogen on bone density, and their bone density was fine.

Dean, I told you the facts. I can't help you more than that.
You obviously haven't seen a hair specialist or you'd not ask me my opinion.
I strongly recommend seeing one now, since this issue is disturbing you some much.

Hi dean1972 hon

When I read your post the pain therein was like getting hit with a sack of quarters. Could you PM
me and I will share what ever I know on the subject with you. OK?

Cindy