Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Please do not engage in personal epitaphs. I don't want to call any one person down here but I believe it would be advisable for some tempers to cool a little bit.

Site Rule:

15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person.

Play nice.

Cassandra

Site Rule 15, how nice.  Have I challenged any persons here? - I did not think I had, but I now feel insulted, my temper is heating up not cooling down.

I now feel constrained about posting anywhere for fear that anything I will say will end in personal insults or patronising comments.

Walks away from the lot of it

Melissa, I'm sorry your wife erased her profile.  I never felt she insulted people, I guess I never read any insult into her messages. 

I know that we all feel attacked sometimes, I know I have, but I have expressed it here and usually have been able to work out any misunderstandings.  But I am getting smarter and don't post in some topics where I feel I might come off "wrong".

Sarah L.

Quote from: melissa_girl on January 30, 2006, 10:06:05 AM
It looks like rana has erased her profile.  My wife did the same thing.  She was tired of feeling like she was always insulting people even though she wasn't.  This board seems to shove the rules down everyone's throat to the point that several members have left.

Melissa

I'm really sorry that she felt that way Melissa.  It is definitely not the intention of Susan's to ram any rules down peoples throats.  There are times when some members get belligerent on the site and they are warned by quoting the applicable rule violation.  Also we make innocent mistakes and we are reminded of the rules.  I know myself that I have made mistakes here and had to be given a poke.  The rules are there to protect you, me, the Site, and everyone one who is a member.  Susan's is a safe haven for us to meet and mingle without fear of retribution, to seek support, advice, and just good company, hence the rules.

I can't remember anyone complaining about your wife's posts or if they were even considered insulting.  I hope that she knows that she is always welcome to return.

One rule that often gets people into trouble is Rule 15:

Quote15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person.

If you were to post a reply that said "I don't think that being transsexual is a medical condition"  I could challenge transsexualism is not a medical condition, but not you for thinking it.

Remember, none of us are infallible, especially me :) so if there is ever a question or protest over rule enforcement, PM any of the Administrators, or Susan herself.

Chat later,

Steph

Melissa,

Sorry to here your wife erased her post. I don't know where she got the idea that she was insulting people. I never felt that she said anything insulting. I found her posts engaging. I do wish she would reconsider.

As to Rana it is regretable that she erased her profile. I did not mention anyone specifically and if she feels she was being singled out there is little I can do about it since she erased her profile and I did not get a chance to explain the action.

The nature and tone of the posts were getting argumentative and personal. I merely pointed out that the parties involved needed to cool off before things escalated further. I am not trying to shove rules down anyones throat. The rules are there to insure that everyone can engage in topics and debates without fear of personal attacks. Without them the site would soon devolve into a cesspool of bickering and would no longer be the safe haven which is one of the hallmarks of Susan's.

If you feel that my action was heavyhanded or out of line you a free to take the matter up with an administrator. If they agree I will be more than happy to offer a public apology. I feel my actions were appropriate and non threatning and as such stand by them.  I will not take offense if you feel you need to speak with an administrator. Moderators are not infallible.

Cassie

Hi Melissa,

Tell Shari that I hope she comes back, we need the input of Genetic women and I thought she brought good things to this board.

Sarah L.

Pardon the confusion. First I split the topic and then I realised I needed to move it. Some concerns and feelings have been raised which I feel warrant the ability to further discuss and as this discussion is way of topic from IRS I thought it should have it's own space.

Melissa,

Please do not feel like you are being policed. That is not the intention. Often times I may see something which I think is kind of borderline but then may consider that I could be overeacting so I let it pass. Another moderator may think differently. We do discuss these things if we think another moderator took an action that was unwarranted. I as well as the other moderators try to err on the side of caution in most matters.

If you have had items deleted review your post and try to modify it to express your thoughts in a manner that does not cross the line as it were. No one is trying to keep you from stating a valid opinion.

Reputation points are there as a guide. It's basically a way of saying hey great post or hey that was a pretty offensive post. It's also a nice way of showing appreciation or support. It's not a popularity contest and should not be construed as such. You should not put too much stock in them.

I do not know of too many posts of yours having been deleted. I usually check these things to see why. I have deleted some peoples posts but these were usually double or cross posts.
I have from time to time edited peoples posts for spelling but this is not a policing action but rather trying to make the post more readable. I usually only do this in extreme cases when the post is almost impossible to decipher or the errors become so distracting I find myself missing the point.

These are just a couple of moderator duties. You should not feel that you have to walk on eggshells or that someone is looking over your shoulder. That is not what we are about. You may notice that I sign most posts Cassie and sometimes as Cassandra. This is to differentiate between speaking as just another member or as a moderator. I have found that the blue stars can be a little intimidateing and there have been misunderstandings in the past.

That is the nature of writing though. Sometimes our words and our intentions can be misunderstood. Unfortunately Rana took my post the wrong way. I only intended that the parties involved should take a little time out so to speak. Which is precisely why I did not name anyone specifically.

Hopefully she will think better of it or read this and reconsider her departure and rejoin the group. She as well as your spouse are welcome back any time. Neither have done anything that would warrant removal or banning.

Cassie

I must admit I was about to post on the IRS post and mention that everyone needs to remember when dealing only in written word and no facial expressions can be seen and no voice tone can be heard that it is easy to missunderstand how something was meant. I think those using the smile faces can soften the wording sometimes and this is a good thing.

Please remember the good that comes from this site. That is what is most important. I will never forget the tears that welled up when Susan shared someones message she received because something I posted had such an impact to help save that persons life. I don't want this site to suffer from the littleness in all of us that would take us away from the site's purpose. Please let the words me and I out of your vocabulary and think you  and we and they and them where ever applicable.

I'm so sad to hear about Sharie's hurt feelings. So sadden to hear she has left the sight. I was feeling a kinship to her as we share some commen ground. I need that too, as a Significant other here at Susan's. Please Melissa tell her for me.

I have tears in my eyes as I see this thread. Tt hurts to feel someone has been hurt so deeply resulting in such actions. I'm sorry these issues happened is there anything I can do personally to make someone feel better? More Tears... More Tears... More tears...

I have no smile at this time,
Peggiann

As one of the people involved in that discussion, I did not take offense at Cassandra's post.  I took it as she evidently intended, as a polite note to cool the conversation down.  I am sorry Rana erased her profile, it seems extreme for a simple admonishment, so perhaps Rana will return upon further reflection.  Likewise Melissa, I do not recall Shari making any objectionable comments so her return would be very welcome. 

It would good for all of us to remember that these posts are just words, that we all can't agree all of the time, and to chill when the moderators ask us to without taking personal affront.  Since Susan owns this site, I am happy to comply with her rules.

Dawn

naturally I support rule #15, but I'm thinking that a post from the moderator asking "people to behave" tends to be interpreted the wrong way sometimes . . . some may take it to mean them personally when the moderator actually had other people in mind. IMO heavy usage of PMs from moderators to the violators and edited posts might cause less confusion here.

Of course, moderators here may already be doing just this and this was one of the rare times she felt a need to address the issue publically.


The posting personal info thing is a tough call. IMO with the internet being what it is and this forum not being a restricted forum (meaning anybody can read the posts and/or become a member without scrunity) I would NOT be posting much personal information. While personally, I wouldn't care that much, indeed many could easily find out more about me by quoting some of my comments in google, but there are others on the net that will take personal information gleaned from this site and perhaps use it against you down the road.

I realize this sort of commentary is not what some want to hear -- especially from those of you that have found comfort in having close  personal relationships with other members here -- but net safety is something we all have to consider.

QuoteI realize this sort of commentary is not what some want to hear

That may be true, but your point is well made. It is something people should be aware of and is also the reason we have the Just For Us forum so those wishing to communicate a little more can do so without having to worry as much about who might be looking. An occasional reminder of the openness of the forum is a good thing Alexandra.

As to the public posting I was trying not to lay blame on any one person and PM's tend to be taken the same way. Unless a more detailed explanation is warranted I tend not to PM to avoid just such a situation. Apparently da%^ed if you do and da%$ed if you don't. Thanks for your thoughts on it just the same.

Cassie

All great points Alexandra,

When topics get out of control and tempers need to be cooled, those involved are sent PM's warning that their behavior is not appropriate, or something similar.  It is also addressed publicly to show the membership that this type of behavior is not accepted and that everyone can see that.  It is not done to single anyone out and it is usually short and sweet like "Just to let you know that you are getting close",  or "Cool it folks", "Step back and take a breath".

Personal information should not be posted in the forums but in the members profile where is is safe from the scrutiny of the web harvesters, and lets say unsavory characters that roam the web.  Remember guests have free access to view the forums.  Personal information that is usually deleted is an apparent teen advertising their age and email address, or a member advertising their email address, in which case the email address is deleted and replaced with something like "You can contact me using the email address found in my profile".

Basically speaking moderators are required to ensure that the rules are followed which in turn goes a long way in keeping Susan's a safe haven for her members.  I would just like to add that the rules apply to us all from the top down, and that Susan has the final word.

Steph

Just to add a little bit:
With out rules there is chaos. An while I don't mind chaos, this is not the place for it.
The rules here are reasonable and are a part of why Susan's is a good place.

Also, if it is of any relevance I almost commented two posts before Cassandra to say nearly the same thing. Cassandra's actions, in my opinion, were warranted.

Simply put, order must be maintained. The desire is to not step on anyone's toes in the process, however that can not always be.

---

Melissa, please tell Sheri we miss her.

Unless I go totally brain dead I try to use the words--person--someone--they --any word except YOU.  Whan the original poster see the word YOU in a reply they see it as YOU when is was intended to be used in the general meaning as everyone.  As in-- YOU need to see a therapist they see YOU and then it becomes  personal.

If someone posts a statement that is proveabley false--The world is flat or all people have blonde hair then saying you are wrong is acceptable

Something else!  If a mod or admin knows of a flagrant violation of the rules or receives a complaint from a member and does nothing about it or does not send up to another admin or Susan there had better be a very very good reason.

I have made my share of mistakes so I am not casting stones without hitting myself in the rock fight.

It ought to be set up so that people can't type "you" without holding down the "control" and "alt" keys at the same time!  This extra effort will help make sure the poster thinks before posting! :D

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to all the Moderators. for the time that I have been coming to Susan's I think you all have been doing a fine job.
To EVERYONE here, I have come to think you all as family. and love and care for all of you

See sometimes the word you can be good  ;D

Your sister
Brandi

I think the best solution is as it always has been, GO TO THE PERSON INVOLVED and talk to them individually. 

I am addressing this to whom ever feels improperly treated, if you feel hurt, go to the person you have the problem with.  If you then feel things have not been addressed, then and only then go higher up, it probably doesn't ever belong in the open group.

I felt hurt once and went right to the person (a moderator) and we talked and resolved the misunderstanding.

Sarah L.

Is it time for this tread to end?

                    In my opinion there were a couple of instances in the IRS topic where people did somewhat "challenge the person" regarding Rana. One instance involving "you" and another involving "your".

                    That said I think there is something we all need to consider that I think leads to hurt feelings. I believe we must be extra careful when one person has a different opinion than several others. The person with a differing opinion can easily feel ganged up on, even if the posts are mostly following the rules. I think we should step back and really examine our words before we jump into a discussion where several are disagreeing with one person. When this is the case I believe we need to go beyond the rules and show compassion toward this person, not falsely agreeing with their position but just being more careful than usual to avoid hurt feelings.

                     I hope Rana will reconsider and come back. I enjoyed reading her point of view on things.

beth

Rana,

If you read this forum, please reconcider your choice to pull out and disassociate yourself with everyone here at Susan's. Their are those here that will sorely miss your participation.

Smiles,
Peggiann

Rana, Just remember that rules were meant to be broken sometimes and we as human beings are not perfect (especially me who has broken several rules) Feel the love from these posts that people are sending you and know that we benefit from your knowledge and if you stop posting we will lose the part which I feel is important to grow and learn.

We miss you already!

Sara.

Beth, Peggiann, Sara, thank you for your posts. At this point I will say that all I intended to do was just take some time out - I found that I was losing my equilibrium and starting to take things personally & becoming hurt & very angry. Not a good way to be & certainly not fair on other people.

Believe me I have high regard for everybody here.  If I did not, it all would have been like water off a ducks back.  However for a while it seemed to me an inexplicable & concerted attack by people I had regarded as friends. 

Sitting back and reflecting on things I consider that problems in communication were the cause.  I was interpreting posts according to criteria that I am now sure were not intended by those making them. And, I think that Dawn was doing the same with mine.  It has been said before, & Peggiann mentioned again, there are problems with the written word unsupported by other means to judge the nature of a comment.  Also I think cultures come in to it; Australia & the US are very similar in a lot of ways, yet very different in others.

I think it is important to consider the nature of communications, and when I have sorted things in my head, will be posting in PMS regarding this (not because I feel the need to "vent" but because I don't know where else to put it.

Finishing up, Dawn I like reading your posts and have always liked, envied and respected you - I certainly never intended to hurt you.  Understand that I am impulsive & proud and find it very difficult to back down from a position I have taken.  Cassandra, I never thought you were attacking me - it just seemed to me that I had just received a low blow THEN the ref jumps in & says no punching.  Of course the sensible thing to do would have just been to contact you and ask why and in retrospect its obvious that what you did was right & proper.
As for deleting my profile - it was the action of an instant, immediately regretted & I just did not know what then to do about it - it looked like I just flounced off like a drama queen - was not the case I was waiting till I found somebody to tell me how to fix it.

So here I am back to square one again - is a good lesson for me :)

Welcome back, Rana.  So glad you changed your mind and decided to join us again.   :)

I am glad too, Rana. Welcome back.

Dennis

Welcome back rana. After I saw you had deleted your profile, I kind of started this series of threads related to people feeling hurt or unable to post as they please, because my wife was having similar concerns.  She is mostly off here though because this whole TS thing is hard for her to deal with and she just wants to concentrate on school at the moment.

Melissa

Welcome back Rana. I am so glad you have returned. DawnL is on hiatus as she is recovering from her surgery and needs to concentrate on that right now. You can read more about that in her thread on the subject. Again welcome back and remember you can always PM me if you have an issue with an action I have taken or if you just want to talk about anything in general.

Hugs,

Cassie

Hey Rana,

Glad your back it's nice to have others from down under to help educate them from the north. :)

Seriosly though you're right about the written word without other indictors. Keeping things on subject takes a lot of the sting but even then it is easy to take things personally. I try to keep reminding myself not to read to much into what is written. Again sometimes easier said then done. :) A PM to one of your friends here can often help if your feeling a little hurt (hint).

Anyway welcome back dear lady.

Shelley

 :icon_hug: OH Rana I'm so glad to see your post! Just so glad!
I think many of use learned a lot from this experience.

Hun... The only way we fail at something is if we don't learn from is. I look at failure to understand, or failure of anykind as failing forward if I leaned a lesson out of it. So think of it this way... look how many people got to succeed and fail forward just from reading and experiencing from this issue. We all have a chance to come out better communicators from having gone through this all. That the good news of it.

:icon_ihearu: on the there are problems with the written word unsupported by other means to judge the nature of a comment.  Also I think cultures come in to it; Australia & the US are very similar in a lot of ways, yet very different in others.

I used to teach a class on body expressions and reading a person just from there postures and movement. I wounder  ???, If I can work that up for in the written word some how. There has to be studies out there somewhere on the subject. ???

Anyway Welcome back Dear Lady, I'll be looking forward to your posts again.


Big Smiles,
Peggiann

Hello Rana,

            Welcome back!   :)

beth

Melissa
I was concerned to hear that Sharie had deleted her profile - I did not realise she had :(.  Would you let her know that I found her posts interesting & informative.  Please ask her to return when ever she can spare the time from her studies as I, (as well as heaps of others here :)  ),most certainly miss her input on things.

Regards
rana :)

PS Shelley - I can take a hint count on it :)   
    Cassie, I most certainly will - I often would like to ask your opinion & help on stuff, but felt a bit diffident.
    Peggiann Thanks :)  I will look forward with interest for your post on meanings & expressions from the writen word, and look forward some day to chat with you.
To everyone - this just confirms what I originally thought when I first came to Susans. The standard of decency, helpfullness & friendship was more than I ever expected. I will try to live up to your standards :)

Quote from: rana on February 04, 2006, 09:44:19 PM


  I will look forward with interest for your post on meanings & expressions from the writen word

Say what you mean-mean what you say.  Not "you" personally but everyone. 

Quote
  I will try to live up to your standards :)

People live to their own standards, they abide by the rules.  There is a difference.

Hello Leigh,
I am confused by your post, are you addressing it to me or is it a general pronouncement?
The confusion arises from you quoting me, yet not addressing me.

I try to be precise in my English, so I will note your pronouncement as constructive criticism. I am prepared to accept people doing this as I anticipate it will lead to an improvement in my thinking & posting.

However, would you clarify what you mean in your first pronouncement. I regret that I am unable to message you and ask you directly to explain as I would have prefered to do

Rana

Rana

This is why I included: Not "you" personally but everyone.  This is a good example of the confusion that arises from posting.  When I read something that gets me in a wad I reread it several times and sometimes wait until the next day to write a reply. Keeps me from smiteing my own post.

When someone makes a statement, they own the responsibility for it, good or bad. 

When I say I don't date men it means date not that I don't like men or at least some men.   Some people would interpet don't date to read don't like.

I don't date men it means date not that I don't like men or at least some men.   Some people would interpet don't date to read don't like.

While some others might wonder if it means you go around guessing the age of men.

That's why more words to explain ones possition and painting a vivd picture can be more helpful in most cases. The English words have so many meanings and ways of interpritaion for the same word. It can get confusing. Your rereading posts and sometimes waiting for a day to reply is a good practice I have adopted that practice myself sometime ago. It's also important to reread ones own post before clicking the save button.


Smiles,
Peggiann