Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Jeez, that looks as rude in print as it sounds saying it out loud..

I am very leery being here, I have been torn to shreds by the trans community in the past, but I can't find any place else on the internet to vent. I don't expect anybody to understand, unless they have been through the same thing, but I have never met anybody else that has my history. I know there must be others like me, but folks like me don't jump up and down and announce ourselves, we lay low, and try to pretend nothing is different about us, that there is nothing 'wrong' with us.

But, I cannot stand the loneliness another second. I just don't fit in anywhere unless I lie about my past. I am a fundamentally honest woman, and no matter how I try to manage my history, there is no right answer. Either I am lying to myself, or my lover, or both. And if I tell the truth, I am looked at as if I am a freak. Or mistaken for trans, and subjected to trans-hate or homophobic reactions.

So, please, be gentle with me. I am such a strong person, I have survived so very much, and yet, even after doing everything I can to make things right, I can find no one that understands, let alone somebody that will love me.

I am generally very well-adjusted, and optimistic, and full of joy. But lately, well, the last few days, I have been despondent. I fell in love with a man that I thought was special, different, smart enough, and secure enough to be my life partner. Then, after love-making, he saw my scars 'down there', and asked what they were from...

I didn't want to tell him anything, but I had just told him "I love you" for the first time, so after balling my eyes out for 20 minutes, I slowly told him the whole story, bit by bit, layer after layer, laying my history and soul to bare before him. He was sweet, at first, but yeah, the earth shifted beneath us, and now, he is gone..

You see, when I was born, I was born with a large clitoris. Large enough that I was mistaken for an hermaphrodite. There are other factors, I was exposed to DES in utero, for example, but as my gyno says; "we will never know exactly what is going on with you on the molecular level'. Yay, how comforting is that?

Anyway, so my parents had been hoping for a boy. And in those days, it was believed that gender was taught, not inborn, so the nice Catholic doctors told them they could 'choose' my gender. They also instructed them to never, ever, tell me what they were about to do, and never, ever, let me act like a girl. Then they took me away from my mother and performed the first surgeries on me, followed by another set at 6 months and yet another at 18 months. They sewed up my vagina, excised my labia, cut my clitoris free, relocated my urethra to the tip of my neo-penis, reshaped my clitoral hood into a neo-scrotum, trans-located my ovaries into the neo-scrotum, and removed most of my uterus.

I feel like I am betraying myself telling all this here, laying myself bare, again, and leaving myself open for attack. Please, please, don't make me regret sharing this!

My parents were brutal in enforcing my assigned gender. My father was especially brutal, he actually hated me, because, of course, I knew I was a girl, and I kept saying I was a girl, and to him, I was a shameful, hideous freak that reflected poorly on his manhood. And he could never admit he made a mistake, even if he had to beat me every day, he was convinced he could beat me into being an actual boy. But he could not. Instead, he beat me into pieces. You see, he gave me DID. He broke me. I have multiple personality disorder, on top of everything else, like icing on the proverbial cake.

Of course, I don't have a Y chromosome, so I never started to look like a boy. They pumped me full of growth hormones to make me grow bigger, but I never started puberty. So, they pumped me full of testosterone. Even so, I didn't feel like a boy. I wasn't a boy. I was a lost little girl, broken into over a dozen alters by the time I reached high school. Finally, one of my 'tough girl' alters had had enough, and she confronted my father, and the beating that ensued lasted forever, and left my face very badly bruised and swollen. My mother had to keep me out of school until the swelling and bruising had subsided, and she told me she would kill me if I ever told on my father for beating me. But, worse than that, my father had broken my mind yet again, and what arose next was the first male alter. The first of many, many, male alters. And 'his' first order of business was to deny our femaleness, and learn to act like a man. To act like a big man, an important, cocky, arrogant man. And for the next several decades, successive male alters ran my life. They succeeded in finding work that suited our true female nature, oh yes, but every one of them acted like an alpha male.

So, of course, I was miserable just below the surface. And to make a long story short, the facts of my birth and 'corrective surgeries' eventually came to light, and I lost my spouse, my career, most of my friends, and all my possessions as I de-transitioned back to female. I started HRT and grew A cups in a little over a month, B cups by three months, and when I mentioned that to the trans community, I was accused of being a liar, and was attacked mercilessly. The gender therapist I was seeing threw me into the trans community for 'support', and it was a disaster. I was a like a duck in the henhouse, and they pecked me relentlessly. I stayed away from the trans community for many, many years, and only very reluctantly am I posting this here now.

I have had vaginal reconstruction surgery (Dr. B is a GENIUS!) and over 100 hours of electrolysis, but all of that was very expensive and painful, but very necessary. I still need to take a $25k trip to Buenos Aires to see Dr. DiMaggio, but who knows when? I will not rest until every single thing I can do to undo the travesty that was inflicted on my body has been done.

For me, de-transitioning was pretty easy and smooth, all I had to do was let my littles walk and talk for me, and 'passing' was a breeze. My male alters had to learn to act like a woman, that was soo weird, because we all have different voices. But, all of my alters are on board, and the only things that get me 'outed' nowadays are my history, and my scars, and my inconvenient attachment to honesty.

And that is the rub. I want to be able to live as if none of this ever happened, to live in 'deep stealth', as trans people call it, but, I hate being dishonest, I really do. I just had my heart broken for telling all to my boyfriend, and who knows if he will be telling everybody my story? I may have to move away, again, and change my name, again, just to have any piece of mind at all.

When I was first de-transitioning, several trans girls told me they wished that they were me, that I should be grateful I was born a girl, and that my journey was going so very well. But that is sooo wrong, and shortsighted. Nobody deserves what I went through, and nobody deserves what I will always have to go through for the rest of my life. I just want to have been left alone. Had my parents not mutilated my sex organs and pumped me full of growth hormone and testosterone, the only thing different about me would have been my large clit, and that would have been no problem for me at all. But, we can't always get what we want, can we?

Thank you for allowing a space on your forum for a girl like myself to vent and tell my story.

We are all humans. We all deserve dignity, respect, honesty, companionship, compassion, and love.

Mostly love.

Welcome to Susan's Place. There are several others on this site who were forced into the wrong gender as children. They had to undergo surgery much like you and received hormones that were wrong for them. You are safe on this site as we welcome anybody regardless of being transgender or not. Should somebody treat you badly on this site, hit the report to moderator button on the right of the post and we will take corrective action. Much of the time we spot problems like this before they are reported but it's not a problem reporting the issue  twice.

This is primary a medical information/support site and we don't allow personal conflict to take place on this site. You have as much right to explore yourself on this site and anybody else. If there is anything I can help you with, let me know.

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Oh my gosh what an amazing thing that you have survived all that. I would never doubt your story. I am so sorry for all that you have been put through. No one deserves what you have had imposed on you. I am honored that you would share your story with us. From all I have seen on this site, I think that people will respect you and what you bring to the table. My name is Monica. Count me as someone you can talk to if you would like to.

Than you, Dena...

I don't know if I will spend much time here, I feel so much better already from having released my truth back into the universe, but I am comforted by your commitment to the humane treatment of all your membership. My past experiences aside, I do know that trans people are often some of the most generous, perceptive, and kind-hearted individuals one may ever hope to meet. There is much common ground between us, such as having been (or being) in the wrong body, experiencing dysphoria and dysmorphia, being mistreated, and misunderstood, by family, friends, doctors, therapists, and society, and so forth. And, I was once a trans-person myself, an unwilling FTM transsexual, in fact, but that is all starting to become a very long time ago, and the memory has faded, and has been long reshaped, and my internal narrative now only reflects my actual truth, and requires no filtering. Well, not until I am subjected to in-depth, and at-length scrutiny, and then I reach a crossroad where I must choose deliberate dishonesty or face the consequences of disclosure. The truth is that I am okay with all of it now, and I know that the problems that ensue after telling all are only a reflection of unresolved issues in the minds of those that cannot deal with my non-standard life journey. It's not my fault that my ex-boyfriend feels 'gay' for having been with me. He needs to face whatever unexplored and unwanted sexual reactions he is having to my past in therapy. Were he fully secure in his manhood, he wouldn't be threatened by my past, but only saddened for me, and happy for me that I have risen to the challenges, and am doing fine now. I was never a man, no matter how convincingly I portrayed one for survival's sake.

Again, thank you for the warm welcome.

Hello Monica!

You are sweet, thank you.

There are many more side-issues that added to my early life misery. I was sexually abused by my psycho oldest brother until he was caught and kicked out, I suffered constant physical abuse by my other brother, a sociopathic menace, and relentless harassment and beat-downs at school (and in my neighborhood) by boys that thought I was gay. There were countless humiliations in gym locker rooms for having a micro-penis, no body hair, and zero muscle tone, by both students and gym teachers. Then came 13 years of alcoholism and drug addictions, misdiagnoses as bipolar, and mis-prescribed psyche drugs, and over half a decade of 8 mg a day prescription Xanax addiction, followed by the most horrendous withdrawal in the history of humankind, lol. It was then that I had the seizure that shut down my brain's core, and began a seven year reign of alters. When my brain finally healed and my core personality rose up out of the blackness a month and a half ago, my de-transition had already been accomplished, and I had to relearn what my alters already knew, and had to start to 'remember' what they had been doing in my absence. I saw a lot of it as I slept, but only like a movie on a screen at a drive-in while dozing in a car full of dozens of chattering friends. Yeah, what a long, strange trip this has been! I awoke with a boyfriend, a vagina, boobs, a new life, new clothes, a new location, a new everything. But somehow, I am still who I always had been, somewhere, all along.

My family was pretty stoked that I came back, they thought I was gone for good, and that I would always be in pieces. It was a happy re-awakening. I was especially happy to find that my sisters and female relatives were all very supportive of me being restored to my female anatomy. I know a lot of trans people are rejected by their kin, but my family remembered the 'clues' and accepted the truth without hesitation, even before they saw any of the reams of medical documentation. I am a very, very lucky woman! I have so much to be grateful for, and my joy is genuine, even though my loneliness is so very, very profound..

Thank you for your trust in my truth.

Quote from: Dena on January 12, 2017, 07:26:10 PM
Welcome to Susan's Place. There are several others on this site who were forced into the wrong gender as children. They had to undergo surgery much like you and received hormones that were wrong for them. You are safe on this site as we welcome anybody regardless of being transgender or not. Should somebody treat you badly on this site, hit the report to moderator button on the right of the post and we will take corrective action. Much of the time we spot problems like this before they are reported but it's not a problem reporting the issue  twice.

This is primary a medical information/support site and we don't allow personal conflict to take place on this site. You have as much right to explore yourself on this site and anybody else. If there is anything I can help you with, let me know.

We issue to all new members the following links so you will best be able to use the web site.

Things that you should read

• Site Terms of Service and rules to live by  (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
  
• Standard Terms and Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)
  
• Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
  
• Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)
  
• News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)
  
• Photo, avatars, and signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)
  

Awwwwww.... I so love you Dena!!!! You are so nice and comforting ....you always know the right things to say to a person in distress.......

MissG,

Welcome to the site.

You are incredibly strong to make it through all that. Also for sharing your innermost secrets and pains. I would like to think that there is no one who would misuse you on our site. However, as Dena stated, we try to keep a close eye on what goes on. Even with the large number of members. You should be safe here.

You are not alone here. Without having met, we are family.

I wish you love, acceptance and a smooth path from here on.

With warmth,

Joanna

MissGendered,

You have certainly had a very rough time.  That is why genital surgery of infants should be avoided except for that which is necessary for proper bodily functions.  The child should be allowed to make the choice when old enough to make the choice.

Quote from: Joanna50 on January 13, 2017, 10:38:30 PM
MissG,

Welcome to the site.

You are incredibly strong to make it through all that. Also for sharing your innermost secrets and pains. I would like to think that there is no one who would misuse you on our site. However, as Dena stated, we try to keep a close eye on what goes on. Even with the large number of members. You should be safe here.

You are not alone here. Without having met, we are family.

I wish you love, acceptance and a smooth path from here on.

With warmth,

Joanna

Thank you, Joanna!

It has been a long and winding road, but there have been amazing vistas, and incredible relationships, and great pleasures all along the way. Most of my severe pain was limited to my first two decades of life. What came afterward was often very confusing, lol, but extraordinary as well. My personal achievements in the creative arts were sufficient to keep my head above water, and my blood in my veins, though I was at the end of my rope with alarming regularity, for sure.

There is a Japanese art form called 'KIntsugi' that is my personal model for healing. It is basically a way to fix broken pottery with gold or silver-infused epoxy, which renders the shattered clay into something not only again functional, but stronger, and more beautiful, than the original object in question. I am a 'glass half full' kinda woman, I have learned, finally, through MUCH trauma therapy, DID therapy, and personal experience, to release my negativity back into the universe, and to open up pathways for not only healing, but succeeding, and excelling, as I move forward through time. Was any of this easy? Hmm, well, yes, some was very easy, but truth be told, it was a purification by fire, and the journey took me through the seven circles of hell, down to Mordor, and to the edge of the known universe, and back. Without having completed this round trip, my world view would certainly be much, much, much more pessimistic, bitter, and hateful. But, having reached full circle, even though I still desire some physical remodeling, I am 'good' with it all already.

Thank you for your further assurances of fair treatment and kind consideration on your site. The world is full of good and helpful humans, and even when the hateful ones are yelling the loudest, the fact remains that goodness cannot be extinguished from outside us. We are all masters and mistresses of our own experience, and I hope that all humans someday realize this fact, and make good use of its potential to re-align one's self for the greater good.

Much love!

MissG

Your metaphor of fixing broken pottery is wonderful and powerful. Thank you for sharing that. I cannot fully understand all you went through. However, I can certainly empathize with it. The strength and beauty from within must shine to the outside as well.

Wow, I sound like a Hallmark card. Sorry. I do sincerely mean it though.

Stay strong yet flexible.

With warmth,

Joanna

Quote from: mac1 on January 13, 2017, 10:57:39 PM
MissGendered,

You have certainly had a very rough time.  That is why genital surgery of infants should be avoided except for that which is necessary for proper bodily functions.  The child should be allowed to make the choice when old enough to make the choice.

mac1,

Indeed, the interests of parents in these situations have long overshadowed the rights and needs of the children. My first remembered words were "I am a girl", as I had already felt myself to have been miscast as something other than myself. This enraged my father. He was a man that never admitted a mistake, or a failure, or even having had a genuine emotion. Basically, as a human, his abject failure is epic.

These mis-assignments are still being perpetrated behind closed doors. My heart goes out to all that receive such a welcome into this world. Such things tend to dominate what ever might else have been...

I hope you find your way to your desired goals, as well. Hang in there, it can happen, make it so..

MissG

Quote from: Joanna50 on January 14, 2017, 12:02:12 AM
Your metaphor of fixing broken pottery is wonderful and powerful. Thank you for sharing that. I cannot fully understand all you went through. However, I can certainly empathize with it. The strength and beauty from within must shine to the outside as well.

Wow, I sound like a Hallmark card. Sorry. I do sincerely mean it though.

Stay strong yet flexible.

With warmth,

Joanna

((HUGS))

Thank you, I needed that..

Quote from: MissGendered on January 12, 2017, 06:27:10 PM
I may have to move away, again, and change my name, again, just to have any piece of mind at all.

Sooo, on a lighter note..

I just caught this typo, lol, and for a DID person, this is the ultimate 'Freudian Slip'...

Y'all have been awesome so far, thank you so much for your generous reception..

Thank you!

MissG

Dear MissG,
I have to say that your strength, will, or spirit, whatever you call it, is inspiring. You not only have survived but seem to have come through it as a warm, sensitive, strong woman. I am curious as to how clearly you envision what is next for you. Finding love is such a difficult thing for so many. I think this is something you mentioned in your intro. Is this your next mountain to climb? Sorry, I don't mean to seek information that is more than you want to share. I guess based on what you have posted, I wouldn't bet against you climbing that mountain, though.
I know you seemed very hesitant to post initially. I can't say that I understand how things have been for you. This site is kind of an amalgamation of people who the vast majority  of people can never truly understand on a personal experience basis. I am thankful you post. It is helpful to see your perspective. It makes me less isolated in my little trans bubble to know your story is there. I want people to be okay with me, obviously. I know you want similar acceptance and respect. It really makes me angry that others, upon hearing your story, have treated you unkindly. Thanks for expanding my mind a bit.
With warm feelings,
Moni
PS I corrected my typo. Instead of "  vast majority", I initially put "waste majority." Not sure what type of "slip" that was.

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 14, 2017, 11:09:27 AM
Dear MissG,
I have to say that your strength, will, or spirit, whatever you call it, is inspiring. You not only have survived but seem to have come through it as a warm, sensitive, strong woman. I am curious as to how clearly you envision what is next for you. Finding love is such a difficult thing for so many. I think this is something you mentioned in your intro. Is this your next mountain to climb? Sorry, I don't mean to seek information that is more than you want to share. I guess based on what you have posted, I wouldn't bet against you climbing that mountain, though.
I know you seemed very hesitant to post initially. I can't say that I understand how things have been for you. This site is kind of an amalgamation of people who the vast majority  of people can never truly understand on a personal experience basis. I am thankful you post. It is helpful to see your perspective. It makes me less isolated in my little trans bubble to know your story is there. I want people to be okay with me, obviously. I know you want similar acceptance and respect. It really makes me angry that others, upon hearing your story, have treated you unkindly. Thanks for expanding my mind a bit.
With warm feelings,
Moni
PS I corrected my typo. Instead of "  vast majority", I initially put "waste majority." Not sure what type of "slip" that was.

Monica,

My next mountain? Probably self-acceptance, to be honest. And maybe next should come indifference to the opinions of others. But only without allowing myself to become thick-skinned and calloused.

Then, gathering finances.

Then, facial remodeling and a few other procedures to optimize my appearance.

Then, implementing my deep stealth plan.

As it happens, my ex-boyfriend has had half a change of heart. He has decided he still finds me very desirable, and that my past doesn't make me unattractive to him sexually, BUT he cannot see himself falling in love with me and marrying me, for his own reasons. We have decided to stay friends with benefits for now, and see what may or may not develop. This is not a perfect solution, though validating in many ways, but I am not happy to love a man that does not love me, but I am happy to be able to love a man at all, especially one that rings my bell. Either he will fall for me or he won't, but I will find a true love again someday, and that knowledge cannot be taken from me by any man.

Yes, I was reluctant, at first. I was hurting very deeply, and my pain was clouding my vision for my future. I am over that now. And I am better for the tears I shed. You have also helped me, sweetie, thank you!

You are also a very kind woman, never underestimate your potential, nor your current value. You rock, sister, never forget that fact..

MissyG

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 14, 2017, 11:09:27 AM
It really makes me angry that others, upon hearing your story, have treated you unkindly.

Monica,

There have been a wide variety of reactions from those that have heard my story in detail.

Cis women have been universally outraged and angry at what happened to me, and immediately accepting, even when I still appeared male to their eyes. Now that I look as I do, they are even more sympathetic and bewildered that a woman had to go through any of that stuff.

Female doctors and therapists have been known to weep. Male doctors tend to be indifferent to my past suffering, but are fascinated with me as a 'case'. My gyno says he has waited 30 years for such a woman to walk through his door. I have to openly discourage male doctors from turning me into some kind of study, whether genetic, neurological, psychological, or medical. Female doctors understand my desire for privacy and anonymity instinctively.

Gay women sometimes see me as trans, especially trans-exclusionary radical feminist types, and reject me as a woman because I have never menstrated. One woman I dated has stalked me with "be honest, you are really trans, aren't you?' anger, and any attempt to explain has brought accusations of dishonesty. One very masculine gay girl where I lived during my change actually threatened to beat me up, and tried to bully me in my apartment complex. One of my protector alters responded and scared the living crap out of her, lol. She almost wet her pants, lol.

When I was first de-transitioning, gay cross-dressers sometimes attacked me as a liar, telling me I was 'no better than them', I was just a cross-dresser with a delusional lie.

When I first went to a real life trans support group, I was immediately accosted by a pre-op transwoman for being 'elitist' and she waved a diagram in my face that depicted some sort of trans-heirarchy pyramid which showed non-passing pre-op MtFs at the bottom and XX intersex women at the top. I had never heard of such an arrangement, nor did I ever subscribe to any such notion, and I still do not. She made it impossible for me to be involved with the LGBT in that city, as she went to all the meetings and ran me down constantly to anybody that would listen. Because I am very feminine, the trans girls that are not interested in binary life were receptive to her hate speech, and they shunned me and made fun of me, too.

When I was doing trans support online, I faced a lot of the same hate from some girls, and when my DID became apparent, I was accused of being a fake and a liar, and banned from two different sites.

When my female relatives were told of my situation, they all gathered around and immediately accepted me as a woman and began socializing with me appropriately. We shopped and shared dressing rooms even while I was pre-op, they never flinched. My male relatives never even responded to my texts or calls, they all ignore me now, except my sisters' sons. They get it and are very cool.

Once I started wearing female clothing, I began to pass everywhere, and I stopped trying to participate in real life LGBT things, since I never got any real help from them, and cis people saw me as a normal woman.

I still find it ironic that those that should have been supportive, hated me, and those that would hate if they knew my past, accepted me universally. It was only male family and LGBT that hurt me, really...

But that is all a long time ago now. I am me, and in one piece, and all is well that ends well, ya know?

Thank you for your compassionate interest and support. I will answer any of your questions best that I am able. Don't be shy, I trust you.

MissyG

Thank you Miss G for that detailed personal disclosure.  I worked in obstetrics for many years and the situation you described at your birth sadly continues to this day.  Disorders of sexual development or being intersex happens more frequently than most people know (maybe 1 in 1800 births) and has over 57 different conditions/causes.  I applaud your self direction and, of course, your identity and affiliation as self determined.  I know a few intersex folks do identify as trans and many who do not.  I hope you will feel welcome here and continue to share with us your unique perspective and experience.

What we share in common includes surviving and moving forward with our lives as self determined people.  It is good to have you here, thanks for speaking up.

*
My heart extends to you.

Sadly, birth-room surgeons butchered new-borns with regularity in prior times; to a lesser extent now.

Wow!  You and I share many similarities.

I grew up acting out 'feminine protesting' tantrums with a M-F transsexual identity.  By my puberty years, I was developing slightly female, but not male.  All the while, my parents also tried beating male into me - they failed.

I took that into my transition that I began at age 18.  Several years later (1982), I managed to convince doctors to do a physical exam because of my irregular external appearance.  They determined, in actuality, that I had an enlarged clitoris with fused labia obscuring a vagina.  They cut me open to examine my internal anatomy - nothing male inside.  Sure enough, they concluded that I am female inter-sexed.

While still in-patient, a counsellor summoned me for mental examination.  He tried several ways to convince me to not continue with my M-F transition.  I would not budge on my resolve to transition to female full-time.

I learned several months ago that doctors differentiate trans patients from inter-sex patients.  That resource asserted that the trans patient is mobilized to change their anatomy to fit their gender identity whereas the inter-sex patient accepts their erroneous assignment and ambiguous genitalia.  Looking back in my specific case, this explains where that counsellor was coming from.  He saw me as inter-sex and sought to keep me 'male' while I saw myself as trans and sought to keep myself female.

I lived my life in stealth, though I had not yet learned that term. 

I am active in feminist causes.  There was a time during the early 1980s when I, still presenting as 'male',  expected possible empathy by sharing my history and transition with other women.  Then I realised that would be a bad idea.  Again, I did not know the term TERF, but I perceived that notion among the very women to whom I might have outed my self.  That was a wise decision to keep mum.

I had two boyfriends during the late-1980s and one Lesbian girlfriend during the mid-1990s.  I faced that universal dilemma:  'To tell or not to tell', that is the question.  Lucky for me, nothing went far enough for me to get to that question.  But it is a question that persists in my life and perhaps has been a wall preventing me from going past a certain point in a relationship.  I do feel it is no one's business but my own - my private medical history is private.

Then again, I agree with you that none of my past existence during infancy, childhood, and puberty was my conscious decision, but rather what adults imposed against my will and nature.  I survived going from female to male to female.  If a partner can't accept me, then that is on them, not me.

I have no family happy ending.  My parents opposed my transition, my sister wants nothing to do with me, no relatives in my extended family want me in their lives.  I learned to make my own family of sisters and brothers.

Thank you for sharing your life story.

*

My heart goes out to you for the horrible injustice the doctors did to you as an infant, MissGendered. I am also the female alter of my DID System and was molested by Mom and raped by my cousin.  And I am proud of you for being a survivor.

Quote from: MissGendered on January 12, 2017, 06:27:10 PM
all I had to do was let my littles walk and talk for me, and 'passing' was a breeze.

This is a very small point from your thread but I thought it might be affirming to you to know this is exactly how it has always been for me. Primary's gender therapist was sure he was transsexual. She tried to slow me down but I had no problems with people being able to tell I was a girl the first time I stepped out the door after I realized I was a separate person. It took a while to learn how to make Primary's voice higher. But I didn't need hormones or have to learn how to be a girl because I already knew how from being primary when we were small and all the years I spent watching how other girls acted.

The only thing that ever mattered to me (my perspective as the girl alter, not the general feeling of the System or any of my other alters) was that people saw me as a girl. It goes back to my when my best girlfriend started treating me like a boy when I hit my teens. Nobody has ever questioned me, not from the first day I stepped outside the house 6 months after I realized I was a separate person. But I spent the first ten thousand hours of my new life putting myself in every situation I could think of to fail trying to convince myself they weren't all just being polite.

Therapy and living eventually helped me make my peace with who I am. But like I replied to your post "Re: Image recognition and being blown out of stealth online" at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216179.msg1937198.html#msg1937198 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216179.msg1937198.html#msg1937198), it works OK because I only want a little world. If I was primary alter it would be a really big problem.

Wow, damned harsh experiences, soo much pain!  I know we can do better than that!

If only big virtual hugs could help, well, have all you want they are freely given.

Okay, where to begin?

I have a tall glass of strong ice-coffee beside me, and I have freed up my schedule for a few hours so I can address the many, many issues that need clarifying and elaboration while the ideas are fresh in my mind. Bear with me if I jump around from topic to topic, there are lots of synapses firing all over my brain, ha!

First issue, I have to confess I was thinking very seriously about logging onto the site this morning and removing all my posts and deleting my profile. As I was sharing with a mod in PM, I am a very private person now, despite the fact that I lived a very high-profile public life while I was stuck in 'male' mode. My ex-bf and I spent a wonderful evening together last night, and though I love him, and though he does not reciprocate my love, we do share passion, and common interests, and we are becoming great friends. But, as I told the mod, all I really wanted to do today was make him breakfast and chat with him while I did the breakfast dishes. Those that knew me in 'male' mode would be sooo disappointed that I am so unmotivated to succeed at anything beyond intimacy with a man. Yes, I am still passionate about being creative, but only in traditional female pursuits. I make clothing and jewelry, mostly, not high-art, not performance art. I have given up celebrity for just being the tall woman next door, lol.

Sooo, yes, I was going to pull the plug. Then I read my PMs and the replies to my posts. And I was moved. Why? Because I see so many wonderfully considerate people here, all trying to find their own way, and here I am, having completed most of so many difficult, soul-crushing journeys, and I am selfishly not willing to even let anybody have a glimpse into how I did these things. But I am loathe to be perceived as someone that celebrates herself in any way. I truly only want to be normal, as if nothing unusual ever happened to me. And honestly, I feel like that now, most of the time. When I am here, I become aware again of just how long and difficult my road had been, and it makles me self-conscious. But now? I am not in much pain, not really. Yes, I was despondent when I first posted, but truthfully, it was a very self-indulgent post, a wallowing sort of cry for compassion, and I feel a bit guilty for invoking so much of my past in order to receive sympathy.

So, thank you, Tessa, for your offer of hugs and comfort, but dang, I am happy go lucky today, and full of light, and I feel pretty dang good in just about every way possible. I got laid last night, had a great steak dinner, got laid again, and then cuddled and chatted softly with a herculean man that I admire and love. And he knows all about everything, and is okay with all of it, so even if he doesn't love me forever, so what? My glass is 85% full, who am I to belly-ache? ;-)

So that is the first round, gimme a minute to regroup and pee, lol, and I will dig into the next order of business..

Quote from: MissGendered on January 15, 2017, 01:21:37 PM
Okay, where to begin?

I have a tall glass of strong ice-coffee beside me, and I have freed up my schedule for a few hours so I can address the many, many issues that need clarifying and elaboration while the ideas are fresh in my mind. Bear with me if I jump around from topic to topic, there are lots of synapses firing all over my brain, ha!

First issue, I have to confess I was thinking very seriously about logging onto the site this morning and removing all my posts and deleting my profile. As I was sharing with a mod in PM, I am a very private person now, despite the fact that I lived a very high-profile public life while I was stuck in 'male' mode. My ex-bf and I spent a wonderful evening together last night, and though I love him, and though he does not reciprocate my love, we do share passion, and common interests, and we are becoming great friends. But, as I told the mod, all I really wanted to do today was make him breakfast and chat with him while I did the breakfast dishes. Those that knew me in 'male' mode would be sooo disappointed that I am so unmotivated to succeed at anything beyond intimacy with a man. Yes, I am still passionate about being creative, but only in traditional female pursuits. I make clothing and jewelry, mostly, not high-art, not performance art. I have given up celebrity for just being the tall woman next door, lol.

Sooo, yes, I was going to pull the plug. Then I read my PMs and the replies to my posts. And I was moved. Why? Because I see so many wonderfully considerate people here, all trying to find their own way, and here I am, having completed most of so many difficult, soul-crushing journeys, and I am selfishly not willing to even let anybody have a glimpse into how I did these things. But I am loathe to be perceived as someone that celebrates herself in any way. I truly only want to be normal, as if nothing unusual ever happened to me. And honestly, I feel like that now, most of time. When I am here, I become aware again of just how long and difficult my road had been, and it makles me self-conscious. But now? I am not in much pain, not really. Yes, I was despondent when I first posted, but truthfully, it was a very self-indulgent post, a wallowing sort of cry for compassion, and I feel a bit guilty for invoking so much of my past in order to receive sympathy.

So, thank you, Tessa, for your offer of hugs and comfort, but dang, I am happy go lucky today, and full of light, and I feel pretty dang good in just about every way possible. I got laid last night, had a great steak dinner, got laid again, and then cuddled and chatted softly with a herculean man that I admire and love. And he knows all about everything, and is okay with all of it, so even if he doesn't love me forever, so what? My glass is 85% full, who am I to belly-ache? ;-)

So that is the first round, gimme a minute to regroup and pee, lol, and I will dig into the next order of business..

Ok then you may just need a very plush and soft cushion to sit upon as you reflect on that carnal luxury while you hit the keys ;)  Plenty of opportunities for ying and yang on this ride ;D

"Hetro-Normativity"

There, I said it, lol...

So, yeah, here I am, highly hetero-normative, on a trans support site. I will try to remember that compared to most here, I am traveling backward. My 'trans' experience was imposed on me from the outside in. Doctors made me 'trans', and with my parents' consent and encouragement, they mutilated my female body, and crushed my feminine spirit, and stole my birthright to bear my own children. For me, 'trans-ness' was a nightmare. I was an unwilling FTM transsexual. For trans-people, 'trans' is who they are, and something many celebrate, while yet others frame it as a disorder to also be corrected. There are several key issues at play here, and my needs run contrary to the majority of trans folk, regardless of how they frame their condition. Soo, of course I get my feelings hurt in such populations, and of course my assertions rankle and trigger negative reactions from those that were born trans, regardless of how they frame their circumstances. If I may be so bold as to speak as if I understand anybody other than myself, to those trans people that frame trans-ness as something that occurs naturally and as something that should be celebrated as biological diversity, my repugnance at my own 'trans' history seems insulting. To those that frame their trans-ness as being a disorder that requires 'curing', my easy de-transition from 'male' to female seems desirable, and they cannot fathom why I am not celebrating my success in becoming the woman I should have always been. For me, my womanhood was stolen, denied, and worse. Becoming who I was biologically ordained to be genetically, was too little, too late in my mind, at times, though not so much now that I have attained so much of that which I had lost before. So, there is little I can say about my journey that reflects the experience of a biologically male, female-brained transitioner, no matter how she frames her experience. I will try to remember this fact, so as to not offend your sensibilities, but please, bear with me, my own perspective is also legitimate.

Now, onto the intersex issue.

Again, intersex people tend to frame their experience in one of two ways. One group sees their intersex status as being part of the natural biodiversity of humankind. And, for some, it is. But, my IS status was not part of the spectrum of human biodiversity, it was imposed on my body through exposure to Diethylstilbestrol while in utero. My mother was prescribed this carcinogenic synthetic super-estrogen as a miscarriage preventative. I am a DES Daughter. My inter-sexuality was inflicted on me, and I want that fact to disappear. It is unnatural. It is a nightmare from which there is no awakening.

The second way IS people tend to frame their status, is as a disorder that may, or may not, require medical intervention to 'fix'. My parents and doctors saw my situation like that, and upon seeing my large clitoris, they decided 'fixing' me was the way to go. That was the wrong answer, lol. I would have been just fine with my anatomy as it was when I was born, and I could have lived a normal life, had kids, grandkids, etc. Yes, the risk for clear-celled carcinoma would have been present, and my descendants for at least three generations would have been vulnerable to the possibility of having odd sex organs, etc., such as "T" shaped uteri, but we would all have had normal lives.

So, yes, my direction down the transition highway is the reverse of most transitioners, I am running toward the very same hetero-normalcy that has disabused the entire LGBT population is some way, shape, or form. I get it. I want to be that which you can either perhaps never be, nor likely wish to be, nor likely think that anybody should especially promote. So many LGBT-ers have been, and continue to be, traumatized by hetero society. I get that. I feel your pain. But though they are often horrid to you, these are my people. I will try to remember this, and be more sensitive to your point of view, and likewise, please, realize that not all hetero-normals are haters. I am certainly not a hater.

Whewww, that was a hard one. Gonna need more coffee, lol. Back later...

Quote from: Tessa James on January 15, 2017, 01:39:03 PM
Ok then you may just need a very plush and soft cushion to sit upon as you reflect on that carnal luxury while you hit the keys ;)  Plenty of opportunities for ying and yang on this ride ;D

Too funny, I actually do have a bed pillow on my chair, lol, I am a wee bit sore, ha ha ha!!

Yeah, it's all good, ha! ;-)

Miss G I trust no one will challenge your perspectives about your own experiences.  Your gender identity, orientation and affiliations are certainly yours to own and affirm. 

I would suggest that many people do consider themselves "hetero-normative" after fully transitioning and that they too have a private medical history that does not preclude being part of everyday life. Some folks acknowledge being transgender but may consider it part of their past as they live fully integrated lives.  Still, who we hang out with and identify as "my people" does not guarantee our welcome inclusion as a full rights member?

I love being part of the whole rainbow world of LGBTQIA people and feel part of the greater world we also inhabit every day.

Quote from: Tessa James on January 15, 2017, 02:18:27 PM
Still, who we hang out with and identify as "my people" does not guarantee our welcome inclusion as a full rights member?

I am fortunate that 'my people' cannot see my past, and usually treat me as well, or poorly, as any other full rights member. Unless I disclose, that is, then my membership card can be revoked, hence my desire for leaving my past behind.

Yes, I have known trans-girls that enjoy the same privilege, and these are also 'my people', but in an even more special way! :-)

MissG your story is horrific. I feel so sad that you had to experience all of it. Your inner strength however is quite inspiring. Everyone here has always been very supportive and understanding. I didn't even realize there was those divisions in the trans community until others have mentioned similar treatment from other sites.

I have found the support from everyone here at Susan's Place to be invaluable. I hope you find the same here.

Missgendered,

Please stay and continue to share your experiences and views.

With the gender anatomy which you described having at birth I am surprised the didn't choose to raise you as a girl.  With just a slightly large clitoris that should not have been a problem.  Also, there would not have a need for any surgery.

How large was your clitoris at birth and how large is it now?  Could you have lived with it as a girl?

Quote from: mac1 on January 15, 2017, 11:23:13 PM
Missgendered,

Please stay and continue to share your experiences and views.

With the gender anatomy which you described having at birth I am surprised the didn't choose to raise you as a girl.  With just a slightly large clitoris that should not have been a problem.  Also, there would not have a need for any surgery.

How large was your clitoris at birth and how large is it now?  Could you have lived with it as a girl?

Mac1,

Well, my parents wanted another boy badly enough that my mother risked her life trying for 4 years. She had an RH clotting disorder that threatened her with death by hemorrhage with every pregnancy. She also tended to miscarry, and had two stillborn twins with her surviving children, as well. Between me and my next oldest sibling, she had no less than 4 miscarriages, but she was determined to give my father another son. This is why she was taking so much DES, to help with miscarriage prevention. No, DES was not actually helpful in that regard, but that was the idea. So, given the choice, they opted for 'male'..

Google 'women with large clits' and see what pops up, you will get the idea. Some women have HUGE clits, and they are doing just fine. How big was mine at birth? I dunno, nobody will ever know now, lol, but I can tell you that after T treatment it kept growing, and growing. At 15 I had less than 3" fully erect, but it kept growing all my life, and I kept getting taller, too. My clit was over 8" when I started T blockers and E, and I had grown 4 inches taller since high school, too, It shrunk a LOT once I was on E, and my guess is it wouldn't have been much bigger than a small thumb had I been left alone. My vaginal depth is about 6 inches, which takes it as deep or deeper than most women, and it expands just like any other girl when I am excited and penetrated.

Now that I have had my infant phalloplasty reversed, my clit is a bit bigger than normal, but not abnormally large at all. Dr. Brassard got it exactly right, and my entire reconstruction has been a resounding success. Because of the risk of clear-cell carcinoma from DES exposure, he used my clitoral skin to re-line my vaginal canal. Only internal female tissue is at risk for cancer from DES, so it is a blessing in disguise that my clit grew so large from T exposure. I lubricate very nicely, and I am very sensate inside, and my G spot works as if there had been no problem whatsoever, and my clit is VERY sensitive and orgasmic as well. I certainly cannot believe that all the slicing and dicing while a child, and again more recently, has made my lady parts any better than they would have been had they left them alone, but I can say for sure that as they are now, they get the job done as well, or better, than many women with no surgical history. All is well that ends well, for sure!

Yes, I think I could have lived with a large clit as a girl. I would likely have been self-conscious, but once I figured out that bigger meant more pleasure, I would have celebrated my 'difference'.

Quote from: josie76 on January 15, 2017, 11:10:43 PM
MissG your story is horrific. I feel so sad that you had to experience all of it. Your inner strength however is quite inspiring. Everyone here has always been very supportive and understanding. I didn't even realize there was those divisions in the trans community until others have mentioned similar treatment from other sites.

I have found the support from everyone here at Susan's Place to be invaluable. I hope you find the same here.

Thank you, Josie!

One should never underestimate a woman. I did what I had to do, nothing more, nothing less. You'd likely have done the same had you walked in my shoes, I am not special in that regard...

Missy,

I hope you stay, I hope you keep telling your story.  Why?

We need to know it, I need to know it.

Monsters are real, Evil is real.

A survivor like you, of this kind of corruption, no matter your gender, it is necessary to hear what you have to say.

Quote from: Veda on January 17, 2017, 12:31:06 PM
Missy,

I hope you stay, I hope you keep telling your story.  Why?

We need to know it, I need to know it.

Monsters are real, Evil is real.

A survivor like you, of this kind of corruption, no matter your gender, it is necessary to hear what you have to say.

Thank you, Veda. Truthfully, I have probably already said most of what needs saying, except maybe more detail about my DID and alters and how that plays out with gender-variance. Most DID-ers have alters of both genders and/or mixed gender and/or no gender. So, yeah, gender-fluidity is what it looks like from the outside, for sure. Sometimes DID is mistaken for trans stuff, sometimes trans stuff is dismissed if somebody is DID, sometimes, as in my case, there are trans issues, DID issues AND intersex issues all jumbled together. I am lucky. When my core, me, re-emerged, I was happy to find out about my de-transition to femaleness. Had it gone the wrong way, I might have woke up and been like "<not allowed>, where is my <penis>!!!!!, oh nooooo!!!", lol... So, yes, I will stay long enough to get my take on that mix of things on record, but again, truthfully, I am becoming fatigued by dwelling in the past, though it has been a fruitful visit here for me up to this point. We'll see.

Missy

Moderator edit: Edited out a word not allowed(even with asterisks) and changed a slang term to a clinical one.

I hope you just hang around then, no need to talk about the past.

Give fashion advice, tell jokes, offer support, whatever you like.

What you have described, it's beyond my ability to imagine myself in your place.

Though there are others here who are able, I'm sure.

If and when you do feel like talking more about it, I'm wondering, have any of the conspirators in this crime come to justice?

The reason I ask is that things like what happened to you are still happening to others, and I would like to know if it is possible to bring charges against them.

Quote from: Veda on January 17, 2017, 04:42:44 PM

If and when you do feel like talking more about it, I'm wondering, have any of the conspirators in this crime come to justice?

The reason I ask is that things like what happened to you are still happening to others, and I would like to know if it is possible to bring charges against them.

My parents are thankfully both dead, and they should be glad they are, I have some very 'assertive' alters that would like to have had some time alone with either or both of them. I am very glad my system is unified behind me now that I am conscious again. Protector alters are volatile enough, but punisher alters have tunnel vision. It may have not been pretty.

The doctors involved are likely all dead also, if not, I doubt any legal recourse would be available, and even if it were, the case would be public record, and that would make being deep stealth even harder than it already is.

My brothers were minors when they abused me. No recourse to be had there, either.

Bullies were all minors, and there is no proof, just the emotional scars, so again, nope, nothing I can do.

I could hunt them down, easily enough, but no, I am way past that, and I am glad I am.

It is perfectly normal for a person to be outraged for me, and want to see justice done. Any time I have shared even a sliver of my past with a guy, they immediately want to hurt the brother that raped me, but that is about them, really, not about me. It would only bring more pain and humiliation on me, and it would feed the psychotic brain with attention. Serial killers drag out telling about their victims for decades, because reliving their crimes gives them pleasure, even if it is on the witness stand. Let him rot, also.

What I meant about reliving the past being tiring for me was as much about the abuses as it was about having lived as 'male' and wanting to forget that fact. I have been visiting here for less than a week, and in that time I have thought more about my 'male' past than I have in many years combined. I like not thinking about it, I love living without remembrances of that part of my life, I adore my newfound freedom to be a woman in everybody's eyes, especially my own.

But, it has been healthy for me to acknowledge my relationship to others with gender-variant experiences, and share and commune with those that can relate to such things as gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, discrimination, and so on. Living in the straight cis world is amazingly comfortable for me, now that I can. But I also have to be honest with myself, I wasn't always so lucky. I have seen and done things no other straight cis woman has ever done, not to my knowledge, anyway, and only in a community such as this can I let down my firewall, and tinker on the work inside that remains undone. There is not much undone, but there is still enough to warrant making the effort. I want full healing, nothing less. And without help from those that can relate even a little bit, that work would go undone.

So, thank you for indulging me. I need this, too.

Missy

Quote from: MissGendered on January 17, 2017, 05:07:10 PM
It is perfectly normal for a person to be outraged for me, and want to see justice done. Any time I have shared even a sliver of my past with a guy, they immediately want to hurt the brother that raped me, but that is about them, really, not about me. It would only bring more pain and humiliation on me, and it would feed the psychotic brain with attention. Serial killers drag out telling about their victims for decades, because reliving their crimes gives them pleasure, even if it is on the witness stand. Let him rot, also.

I can't say I'm outraged for you, nor can I say would I seek justice for you, those things belong to you.  You are obviously healing and that is very nice to know, and that is justice you provide to yourself.

If it were up to me you would be free of any participation at all, and allowed to be as you wish.

I would seek justice for the criminals sake, for them to confirm with their own recognition the evil they have done, for them to understand why they are being held accountable and for them to knowingly despair their actions.  I know that is unlikely to happen, but it is the end I would seek, not for me, and not for you, but to add to the common definition of right and wrong.

Thank you for your story.

Quote from: Veda on January 17, 2017, 09:06:51 PM
I can't say I'm outraged for you, nor can I say would I seek justice for you, those things belong to you.  You are obviously healing and that is very nice to know, and that is justice you provide to yoursel

I wasn't implying you were, nor should be, I was just elaborating on how this information affects men I have told when I was dating them...

Thank you for your support, and the acknowledgement of healing.

Missy

Thanks, my apologies if I have been overbearing, it's just that I get extremely angry over this kind of thing.

In my book, it falls under, or near, the category of eugenics, one of the most vile of human creations.

But that discussion is not something that belongs here.

Quote from: Veda on January 18, 2017, 01:49:41 PM
Thanks, my apologies if I have been overbearing, it's just that I get extremely angry over this kind of thing.

In my book, it falls under, or near, the category of eugenics, one of the most vile of human creations.

But that discussion is not something that belongs here.

No worries, hun. I know you have your own stresses hanging over you these days, too.

I often refer to my medical treatment as a Nazi Doctor kinda horror story, so yeah, I get where you are coming from..

Honestly, though, in the scheme of things, at this point in my life, I am almost over getting over it, lol..

Life goes on, and most of life is not about me, anyway, ya know?

:-) Missy

Sooo, yeah, here I am still, almost a week exactly since registering...

I wouldna thunk it, I had been doing fine on my own, mostly, since giving the ol' heave ho to online life and support groups and anything resembling gathering 'round peeps outside the center of the ol' cis bell curve.

But, lo, I have learned so much this time in the mix, about myself and all manner of peeps with views and lives like and unlike my own.

I finally figured out what it is that is at the center of my craving for a man, despite the fact that I still find pretty girls sooo yummilicious. I thought what I was looking for was the feeling of being desired, wanted, as a sex object, and the validation that my de-transition had left me looking pretty enough for a man to not notice that my body had once been altered so horribly. But what I realized today, while answering a post about HRT and sex, was that what I want, what I crave, is to be loved and desired by a man enough for him to envision me as the mother of his children, and to want to plant his seed inside me, and make me pregnant with his child. Damn. I did not see that coming, I was so wrapped up in 'passing' and 'lusting' and 'needing', that I overlooked the most basic thing taken from me, my fertility. I desire to be mated with the father of my children, to fulfill the birthright that I have been crying about losing, but never connecting with on a fundamental level. What I want, even if it cannot happen at this stage in my life, is to be seen as a fertile woman. Nay, to be experienced as a fertile woman!

I have been looking at this from the wrong end of the telescope.

Now, I have to ask myself this difficult question: "Can I fix my body and face enough to ever fool a man's basic instincts into seeing me as what I can never actually ever be?"

Am I on a quest for something that once stolen, can never be found again? Am I delusional about believing I can undo what has been done to me sufficiently to sip from that cup, so long after the deed was done? Lacking ovaries, do I just not 'smell' right enough for a man to lose himself inside me in that way? Sure, fetishists find me desirable, sure casual observers see me as pretty, sure men ask me out and buy me dinner, but the truth is, I have never had a man crave me like I feel I deserve to be craved, let alone loved on top of that need to inseminate me, again and again.

Women used to desire me as I now desire a man, even though I was sterile. Do men 'know' on some level, some basic, fundamental level, that I no longer have ovaries or a uterus? Is that what keeps them from bonding with me the way I need to be bonded with?

Holy crap, have I reached the limits of my womanhood, imposed from birth, and just now realized?

Damn.

Soo, a good, long cry, and a nap, and a plate of nachos later...

And a quick re-read of what I wrote earlier...

Hmmm. Not something I relish thinking, nor believing, nor having to accept as true. But, it might really be possible that what I lack now, is not good looks, or intelligence, or a shapely body, but something deeper, something that I cannot fix, nor control, nor ever have. That sucks. I can reclaim my femininity, I can rebuild my body, I can find my true self, I can be authentic, be real, be me. But I can never be a mother to my own child, never give a man his child, our child, never know the joy of childbirth. Ok. As much as that is to swallow, maybe I can get over that, maybe I better start trying to get over that. But how do I get over the feeling that men may sense something that prevents them from being satisfied with me as a woman? How do I cope with that, if indeed, that is the obstacle I am having finding a man that suits my needs exactly?

The reality is that most women my age have no interest in having children, and most men my age have no interest in having any more kids, either, but in my recently re-feminized mind and body, I am just now approaching my childbearing years, my adolescence is only a recent thing, psychologically and emotionally. I am still not even old enough to buy beer. Funny, being a teenager after being alive so long, isn't it? I know I have this in common with transpeople, this untimely, though oh-so-welcome puberty, lol.

So, do I just 'grow up' and accept it? Do infertile teenage girls just 'accept it', does this issue hinder them as they seek a husband? It must, right? It must be heavy on at least some girls, if not all, right?

I know, in my logical mind, I think, I would tell such a girl that for the 'right guy' this won't be a 'thing', but is that really the right thing to think or say? I dunno. How many times would such a girl lose an otherwise great catch, just because she is barren.

OMG, that's it, I AM BARREN....

Yes, of course, there is stigma attached to this, as well as practical limitations.

Virile men, are they attracted to barren women?

My guess is, no.

Damn.

My wife was born with vaginal agenesis.  A rare birth defect that results in no vagina (without dilation), no uterus, no fallopian tubes, no cervix... basically just ovaries.  The only "advantage", never a period....saves on tampons/pads :). We met as teenagers and it had absolutely no bearing on my attraction to her or us falling in love.  As an interesting side note, i actually helped her create her vagina with dilation, a task that I hope she can help me with in a few years.....I bet that's unique :)

  Due to her condition we figured that the only way we could ever have a baby was through adoption, something we planned on and were ok with.   However, science is an amazing thing.  Our sister in law offered to be our gestational surrogate.  The Dr. was able to harvest eggs via a foot long needle through her abdomen into her ovaries, fertilize them and implant them via IVF into our sister in law.  One cycle and 9 months later our beautiful and perfect son was born.

My point is that there are people in this world that can love you regardless of your condition .... and science is a hell of a thing....I don't know your entire medical history or plumbing, but amazing things (almost miracles) can happen, it happened to us.  Perhaps you can't carry, but maybe having your own child via IVF is possible?  If not, you can always experience the love of parenting via an adoption.  Regardless, keep your head up and be proud of how far you've come and the wonderful possibilities in your future.

Staci

Missy,
   I think you are talking about two different things in my opinion. I think you are mourning the loss of your ability to become pregnant. This is understandable. Even if you don't want a baby at this point, the idea that you can't is really tough to deal with. You deserve to be sad about this. I can relate because of all the things I have missed out on because of "finding myself" so late in life. I get bummed out and I allow myself to do this for a while. Then I don't allow it to go on. Every minute I agonize over what I have lost is time I don't enjoy what I have now. So, if you have just realized this loss, mourn it. You have the right. Don't let it ruin what you have accomplished in your recent past.
   As for men being able to pick infertility up on some sort of radar, I don't see it. So many don't want kids to start with. Love is a very tough thing to find. I tend to lean toward the idea that you keep trying. Maybe luck has not been with you. You are not alone in not finding your soulmate. Men and women with no history of any gender circumstances have  this issue all the time. Of course this is only my perspective.
   Moni

Quote from: staciM on January 19, 2017, 07:26:57 PM
My point is that there are people in this world that can love you regardless of your condition ....

Hi Staci!

Thank you for such a warm and kind message, I really do appreciate you taking the time to be both reassuring and encouraging!

I do realize that finding somebody that wants to love me is not impossible, though my initial post certainly did indicate a despair in that regard. My introspection this last week while participating on this site, though, has lead me a deeper understanding of what it is I have been really needing in a life partner. Though I am probably still truly bisexual, my recent epiphany has been that what I have been really wanting, and not actually finding, is a very masculine, very hetero, very virile man. This does of course make my situation more challenging than if I were pansexual or still actively dating other women. I don't know where my search for love will lead, perhaps I am on a round trip journey, and I will find happiness in the arms of another woman someday. But at the moment, that just doesn't feel right. Maybe it's my adolescence, maybe my optimism, but I just don't want to give up on the hope of finding my hercules, lol.

Your story with your wife and her sister is sooo amazingly beautiful and thought-provoking in the best possible way. My uterus was mostly removed when I was 18 months old, my ovaries had been transplanted into a neo-scrotum, and were removed when my vagina was reconstructed a few years ago. Uterine transplants are off somewhere in the future, though I would go in for one today if I could, believe me. I have so much surgery ahead of me and behind me already, I am amazed that I am even willing to consider being cut up again even one more time, but apparently I just can't get enough, ha!

I am so far in debt already (and need another $25,000 to finish my surgeries), that I cannot imagine how I could  ever afford a child, especially with no apparent job history, so I guess kids are just not in my future. Besides, my DID, though essentially resolved, still distorts my perceptions of time enough as to perhaps make my fitness for parenthood something worth considering, also.

Again, thank you for the kindness, and support, and acknowledgement of progress. I do realize how lucky I have been, but also how much of that luck was self-made. Yes, I am proud of what I have managed to do. But still self-aware enough not to let it go to my head, I really only did what had to be done. Had it been up to me, I would have chosen a normal, uneventful life. Such as it was, normalcy was never an option, lol.

Big hugs for you and yours, thanks again!

Missy

There is a sad truth about sex and that is it's easy to find a man who will have sex with you but it's difficult to find one that will commit to you. This is the reason for the traditional idea of no sex before marriage that became far less common as the result of the sexual revolution. If you want a lasting relationship, you should consider meeting men though charity work, church or some other social activity away from bars. There are many good men out there and some even have families just looking for a good mother. Yes, they may not be your own flesh and blood but they can love you just the same.

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 19, 2017, 07:58:41 PM
Missy,
   I think you are talking about two different things in my opinion. I think you are mourning the loss of your ability to become pregnant. This is understandable. Even if you don't want a baby at this point, the idea that you can't is really tough to deal with. You deserve to be sad about this. I can relate because of all the things I have missed out on because of "finding myself" so late in life. I get bummed out and I allow myself to do this for a while. Then I don't allow it to go on. Every minute I agonize over what I have lost is time I don't enjoy what I have now. So, if you have just realized this loss, mourn it. You have the right. Don't let it ruin what you have accomplished in your recent past.
   As for men being able to pick infertility up on some sort of radar, I don't see it. So many don't want kids to start with. Love is a very tough thing to find. I tend to lean toward the idea that you keep trying. Maybe luck has not been with you. You are not alone in not finding your soulmate. Men and women with no history of any gender circumstances have  this issue all the time. Of course this is only my perspective.
   Moni

Moni,

You are right about me having things mixed up. I am also mourning the loss of not only being able to bear a child, but having lost the chance to share the conceiving of a new life with a man that wants me for that purpose. i have lost abilities, and roles, and partnerships, and the lifestyles of a mother, grandmother, and so on...

The layers of loss keep unfolding in my mind, things I never realized before while I was busy struggling with merely de-transitioning from the Frankensteinian life I was assigned to..

Now that I am actually me, and not somebody busy undoing that other stuff, reality is sinking in, and it sucks on more levels than I realized. I have a lot to process, thank you for trying to help. You are very sweet, and I do appreciate your input.

My sex life with men is not as good as it should be, and I am trying so hard to get it right. My fear is that having been altered as much as I had been, I may have deficits that straight guys sense, and which I may never ever be able to overcome. I want to be wanted as if nothing was ever wrong with me or my body. I hope that can happen, I really do..

Missy

Quote from: Dena on January 19, 2017, 08:08:41 PM
There is a sad truth about sex and that is it's easy to find a man who will have sex with you but it's difficult to find one that will commit to you. This is the reason for the traditional idea of no sex before marriage that's became far less common as the result of the sexual revolution. If you want a lasting relationship, you should consider meeting men though charity work, church or some other social activity away from bars. There are many good men out there and some even have families just looking for a good mother. Yes, they may not be your own flesh and blood but they can love you just the same.

Hey, Dena, how have you been? :-)

Well, I have certainly considered the no sex angle, but I am still learning how to have sex with men, to be frighteningly honest, I have only had intercourse with 6 or 7 guys, and only 3 were boyfriends. At first I was so busy worrying about not being clocked, I wasn't really able to explore my own needs at all. The guy I am seeing now is the only guy I have ever dated that knows my history, so I am a bit more relaxed, though super self-conscious since he can now plainly see where my body is different than it would have been had my history been normal.

I am kinda trying to juggle a whole lot more feelings and insecurities than I even want to admit here.

So, the idea of giving up sex before marriage seems premature to me, I just don't have enough skills or confidence yet. Which is sooo weird, since I used to have such an easy time pleasing women while pretending to be male, even if I was super dysphoric, ugh!

Missy

I have a bit different approach. I am asexual and have never been in a relationship. I can envision someday possibly finding somebody I am interested in so I know my game plan. I will disclose before sex but things will have to get pretty serious before I consider sex. Should they not be willing to take me on as an amateur, that's there loss. The person I want in my life need to be somebody I don't need to hid things from and who will accept me as I am.

For me, sexuality is only  a small portion of a relationship. The human contact and the day to day company is what really makes a relationship. You can always figure out stuff in bed (and I am told it's a lot of fun) but relationships break up because couple can't get along with each other and not because of what happened in bed.

Quote from: MissGendered on January 19, 2017, 08:23:43 PM
Moni,

You are right about me having things mixed up. I am also mourning the loss of not only being able to bear a child, but having lost the chance to share the conceiving of a new life with a man that wants me for that purpose. i have lost abilities, and roles, and partnerships, and the lifestyles of a mother, grandmother, and so on...

The layers of loss keep unfolding in my mind, things I never realized before while I was busy struggling with merely de-transitioning from the Frankensteinian life I was assigned to..

Now that I am actually me, and not somebody busy undoing that other stuff, reality is sinking in, and it sucks on more levels than I realized. I have a lot to process, thank you for trying to help. You are very sweet, and I do appreciate your input.

My sex life with men is not as good as it should be, and I am trying so hard to get it right. My fear is that having been altered as much as I had been, I may have deficits that straight guys sense, and which I may never ever be able to overcome. I want to be wanted as if nothing was ever wrong with me or my body. I hope that can happen, I really do..

Missy

Missy,
   I am getting the sense that this is hitting you like a ton of bricks right now. In my talks with you I have come to know your amazing sensitivity. I think it is a wonderful quality that you have. Unfortunately, that quality can cause you some heart ache some times. I would hope that with these new revelations, you don't panic. Take a little time to take it in, to process it, and you will come to a place at some point where you can deal with it. I think some of these thoughts are new to you. Combined with your frustration with the male friend situation, you might tend  to be a bit more  negative in your outlook. Keep in mind, it won't always be this way. I think you must eventually find your positive outlook again. If you view your love prospects negatively, you run the risk of it becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.
   Now that you are not so much focused  on returning your body to who you really are, it is not surprising that you might enter a turbulent period. Remember to breath, Hon. You will find it. You will figure it out. You are an awesome person and you deserve happiness.
Moni

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 19, 2017, 08:49:57 PM
Missy,
   I am getting the sense that this is hitting you like a ton of bricks right now.
Moni

Moni,

Your sense is correct. I am allowing myself to feel things that haven't even crossed my mind before, and I do know that it is a healthy process, no matter how much it hurts me. I am less than 2 months living with my full brain working as a single personality, and as such, there is much greater detail and depth to my emotional and intellectual experience. I have almost 40 alters, and the adult alters, about half of the total, were not present much at all for the last 5 years as I de-transitioned. Part of that is because they are all male alters, with the exception of the most current and most dominant alter, she is undeniably female, and a protector alter par excellence. She forbad the male alters to come forward and participate until they had completed their MTF transitions internally, lest they inadvertently out us and put the whole system in danger. That was an amazingly effective strategy, but it also effectively eliminated our entire adult life history and base of experience from our mind, so it was mostly children and teenage alters running amok, lol, and doing the best they could to enjoy their newly regained consciousness and the opportunities that living with a female body entailed. Those were heady days! OMG!! Soo much fun, so much joy, so many risks taken, lol. Yeah, it was good, mostly..

When my male alters began to resurface last summer, they did so as fully reformed females, and one by one, they emerged, and got caught up with our present life, and began to contribute to our forward progress in ways the little ones had not and could not. Material gains were made, our dating life became actual dating life, instead of dating site hit and run experiences, and new plans were hatched to help us find our way to better integration and finally, emergence as a unified person. I am only speaking of 'us' retroactively, my current perception is that of a single person, but I am still aware of the discrete persons that make up my whole, and I know that if my main core, me, were again disabled, the entire crew would again take over the helm, as before, and move forward as a multiple system. In that sense, I am not 'cured', but rather restored. I actually like knowing I have a back-up team behind my every thought and perception, and knowing the multiplicity of opinions and experiences they are able to contribute enriches my every moment. While the typical human brain functions much like a single core computer, my brain is very much a multi-core processor, and that explains much, if not all, of my sensitivity and perceptive advantages.

Enough about that though, for now...

In my present, as I correlate my thoughts into some sort of cohesive whole, and turn my mind to what I am, versus what I needed to stop being, the depth of what I lost, instead of what I needed to lose, has come crashing down around me. It is one thing to say 'I am a woman', it is another thing altogether to believe that truth to one's core, and to see the world from that framework. Now that I am 'here', and I am done with the journey back from whatever it was I was, I am free to see and feel and absorb the consequence of my parents' choices and how my past lives impacted me as a woman. And, well, you are right, it will take time to assess and experience and plan and heal from those things. And you are also right about me eventually finding peace with the facts, once I know them accurately, and own them fully, and move beyond them emotionally.

I am fortunate to have the space and time to address these issues as deeply as I am now able. Thank you for being a part of this portion of my voyage, I really do appreciate it. I am also very appreciative to Susan's and the other members here for hosting me as I endeavor to know myself better, and to heal more completely. Such things are impossible to discuss in cis-dom, thank you all for your kindnesses and patience and considerations, as well as your feedback and support.

Much love..

Missy

Quote from: Dena on January 19, 2017, 08:47:13 PM
I have a bit different approach. I am asexual and have never been in a relationship. I can envision someday possibly finding somebody I am interested in so I know my game plan. I will disclose before sex but things will have to get pretty serious before I consider sex. Should they not be willing to take me on as an amateur, that's there loss. The person I want in my life need to be somebody I don't need to hid things from and who will accept me as I am.

For me, sexuality is only  a small portion of a relationship. The human contact and the day to day company is what really makes a relationship. You can always figure out stuff in bed (and I am told it's a lot of fun) but relationships break up because couple can't get along with each other and not because of what happened in bed.

Well, I am a very sexual person, even hyper-sexual at some points of my life. I am sure that had a lot to do with having been sexualized as a very small child onward, but even so, sex is a major component of my needs array, lol. So, when you say that people don't break up because of what happens in bed, I have to respectfully disagree. I know plenty of people that have ended relationships because their sexual needs were not being met, male and female. Many, many people justify cheating for this very reason. Others open up marriages to accommodate this very reality. But I do agree that companionship and compatibility are the foundation of any lasting union, for sure.

That said, there exists a very wide variety of people out there, and with 7 billion peeps to choose from, I don't believe that there is only one possible 'soul-mate' for any given person. I believe we grow into love as often or more than we fall into it, and that putting oneself into positions where our odds are better at finding compatible partners is the way to go. I don't drink or smoke and I won't date anybody that uses tobacco at all, so that cuts out a huge portion of humanity from my potential dating pool, loll. I have used dating sites in the past when I was bonkers, and that did get me a lot of attention and experiences that I otherwise would not have had. Your suggestion about becoming involved with activities and organizations that attract 'good' people is spot on, and that is my plan going forward..

Also, thank you for mentioning men with families of their own. I have been avoiding single parents as dating partners up to now, simply because I didn't like all the extra crap that goes with ex-wives and having to pass muster with another woman's children. I can't compete with somebody's Mom, and I have no child-rearing experience, and I am a bit selfish and want all the attention for me. But, perhaps as I mature, and gain better insight into my long-term needs, this will be the way to go. I dunno, but when I read your suggestion, I liked it..

Thank you for your thoughts and support, Dena. You have been very sweet!

:-) Missy

Quote from: Sharon Anne McC on January 15, 2017, 06:20:20 AM
I took that into my transition that I began at age 18.  Several years later (1982), I managed to convince doctors to do a physical exam because of my irregular external appearance.  They determined, in actuality, that I had an enlarged clitoris with fused labia obscuring a vagina.  They cut me open to examine my internal anatomy - nothing male inside.  Sure enough, they concluded that I am female inter-sexed.

I don't know if it's of any help knowing this, but if you were born in 1956 and don't have Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, then it's highly likely that your mother was given a drug called ethisterone during her pregnancy with you. Ethisterone is a lot like DES in that it's a manmade hormone that turned out to have gender bending properties. Like DES, it was administered in pregnancies where the mother was thought to be at increased risk of miscarrying. The main difference is that, whereas DES usually causes female development in genetic males, ethisterone turned out to be capable of driving male development in genetic females. It causes phallic enlargement and labioscrotal fusion (and I suspect, male brain development if exposure occurs during the later stages of the pregnancy).

Ethisterone, and a similar drug called norethisterone, seem to have been in widespread use alongside DES throughout the 1950s and 60s, and there must surely be thousands if not more babies who ended up intersexed as a result of being exposed to them. I've been more looking at them as a possible cause of FTM transsexuality, but if your exposure was during the first trimester only, you could easily end up with the masculinized genitals but a brain that remained female.

I found a number of case reports, e.g.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj150%2Fmightyhugh%2FWilkins%25201960%2520p2_zpsdoohf4lk.png&hash=f66c41680b622217df336b0d557cd145a1e7e26b)
I guess one advantage you (assuming you're a progestin baby) have over us genetic males that were exposed to DES, is that at least some case reports were actually written up and published in the medical literature, so the medical industry can't very well deny that it happened!

If you or anyone else reading this is interested, I've put a note on my newly created facebook page with links to some more case reports about intersexuality caused by progestin exposure.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/protect-the-unborn-child-from-synthetic-hormones/intersexuality-caused-by-progestin-exposure/1632158097087158

Hugh,

Thank you very much for this information, I have read the page you pasted, and I will dig more deeply into your FB links another time. My diagnoses are for DES exposure, indeterminate sex, ambiguous genitalia, pseudohermaphroditism, and gender dysphoria (and C-PTSD, and DID, for extra fun, lol). Whether there were other drugs involved in generating my physical anomolies is an open question, one I haven't even considered. It is not inconceivable that I was exposed to multiple drugs, since my mother was very much at risk for miscarriage, and her doctor was not shy about dispensing 'prenatal vitamins' of unknown contents, from his office, without a prescription, as well as prescribing anything, and everything, available. He was the doctor that treated me secretly, behind even my pediatrician's back, and it was he that referred me to additional specialists throughout my childhood. The whole thing was very hush-hush and creepy as hell..

Thanks again, your input is very welcome.

Missy

Hugh,

I just read your FB page. Sent a wave of goose-bumps down my body. Ugh!

I just want it all to stop now, and never to have happened.

I don't want anything male to be real. Not in my body, nor my brain. I want my original birthrights restored and all else forgotten and lost forever..

A girl can dream, can't she?

Ugh.

Missy

I just read a bit more and yes I am in the at risk age group for the worst of the drugs used.

Now I just want to puke.

Hugh,

I have been looking into norethisterone a bit more, and it does seem like the missing piece to my anatomical puzzle. My gyno is also the trans/intersex specialist at the university women's hospital near me, and when I first saw him he expressed doubt that DES alone explained my clitoral enlargement and ran a CAH test on me that came back negative. He wanted to run further tests, but I told him no, I was tired of being a research project and that I just wanted to live in peace from now on..

But, I have an appointment in a few weeks, so I will bring this topic up with him, and see what he thinks about it, and find out if there is any reliable diagnostic methodology he can employ...

Grrr. I am really mad about this all over again. I know you didn't mean to upset me, but I am almost beside myself with anger. And hurt. And the feeling that I will always feel like I am less than a normal woman..

Missy

Not a good night's sleep at all. Fitful dreams about my ex spouse, my mother, and the sense that I am not living any sort of real life at all, just treading water without even enough money to finish electro and see a dentist, let alone pay for facial remodeling.

Woke up earlier than I should have with my brain already spinning about my 'enlarged' clitoris and 'masculinized brain'...

A big clit and a mis-gendering can be surgically modified, but what does a binary woman like myself do about a chemically induced man-brain? How can I ever expect a binary man to want such an abomination? Is THIS why I cannot seem to bond with a hetero man is a meaningful way? Or rather, why HE cannot bond with me? And if I end up with a woman, will I always be seen as the 'less than female' partner? Will I have to be the sexual aggressor, and the calmer of her emotions, and play the male/dominant role again with her? Ugggghhhh!!!!!

Dark dream fantasies of unspeakable things done to those that hurt me. Haven't swam in this muck and mire for a looong time. Not happy about any of it, this is not me, or is it?

I wanna go back to the unicorn forest now, please. Make it stop!

Missy,

Are you doing any better? Sleep better? I hope so. I am no way qualified to calm down the dark thoughts and let you into the forest. But I can think good thoughts and hold  you in my prayers.

Breathing is always good. (face palming for such obvious comments) I wish I could just give you a calming hug. Perhaps, mind clearing meditation could help. Like me, you seem to think very quickly and perhaps to extremes.

I have to sleep soon myself.

I hope you are having a  better day...and more.

With warmth,

Joanna

Quote from: MissGendered on January 20, 2017, 06:06:20 PM
Hugh,

I just read your FB page. Sent a wave of goose-bumps down my body. Ugh!

I just want it all to stop now, and never to have happened.

I don't want anything male to be real. Not in my body, nor my brain. I want my original birthrights restored and all else forgotten and lost forever..

A girl can dream, can't she?

Ugh.

Missy

I felt a lot like that too, when I first found out that my androgynous looks, my comparatively shy and unassertive personality, my difficulty making male friends and the bullying and social isolation I experienced at school, might all not just be a quirk of who I am, but due to a chemical I was exposed to in the womb that disrupted my sexually dimorphic development, and made me into a kind of a mixture of a man and a woman. However, I've long since got past that, and now I wish I'd known when I was a lot younger, so I wouldn't have spent most of my life hating myself and trying to force myself into a stereotypical male mold.

For me it was a lot like the 5 stages of grief: the denial stage I was stuck in for most of my adult life, anger, bargaining and depression when I first found out, and finally acceptance, learning to live with who I am and trying to figure out how to make the most of the rest of my life.

Quote from: Joanna50 on January 22, 2017, 02:18:06 AM
Missy,

Are you doing any better? Sleep better? I hope so. I am no way qualified to calm down the dark thoughts and let you into the forest. But I can think good thoughts and hold  you in my prayers.

Breathing is always good. (face palming for such obvious comments) I wish I could just give you a calming hug. Perhaps, mind clearing meditation could help. Like me, you seem to think very quickly and perhaps to extremes.

I have to sleep soon myself.

I hope you are having a  better day...and more.

With warmth,

Joanna

Joanna,

Thank you, I did sleep a bit longer and more deeply last night, but still with fitful dreams. Nothing like the unrelenting nightmares I had most of my life, thank goodness! Trauma therapy did wonders in that regard, and my lucid dreaming skills are very well developed, so no, no night terrors, just tossing and turning, and unpleasantness..

One cannot be reminded too often about the effectiveness of proper breathing techniques or mindfulness. The basics work best, most often. But anybody can forget about proper grounding techniques, thank you for the reminder!

I feel like I may have left the unicorn forest a bit too soon lately. I miss the quiet and gentle companionship of my friends there. Humans are okay, but, yeah, I miss what I miss...

Missy

Quote from: HughE on January 22, 2017, 07:30:30 AM
I felt a lot like that too, when I first found out that my androgynous looks, my comparatively shy and unassertive personality, my difficulty making male friends and the bullying and social isolation I experienced at school, might all not just be a quirk of who I am, but due to a chemical I was exposed to in the womb that disrupted my sexually dimorphic development, and made me into a kind of a mixture of a man and a woman. However, I've long since got past that, and now I wish I'd known when I was a lot younger, so I wouldn't have spent most of my life hating myself and trying to force myself into a stereotypical male mold.

For me it was a lot like the 5 stages of grief: the denial stage I was stuck in for most of my adult life, anger, bargaining and depression when I first found out, and finally acceptance, learning to live with who I am and trying to figure out how to make the most of the rest of my life.

Hugh,

I have been through those 5 stages sooo many times, for so many unreasonable things, that I cannot believe I am still being challenged by fresh revelations and the fallout from them.

I have had enough. Really. Even for a survivor like myself, there are moments where I just don't care about being rational nor calm. I want to stand up tall and scream from the bottom of my feet through the top of my head. There is no relief from such things, just accommodation. I am not there yet. But I cannot be outraged again and again forever, logically, there must be a finite end to all this crap.

Missy

Why does it have so difficult for us to achieve our true identity and acceptance?

Quote from: mac1 on January 22, 2017, 03:21:44 PM
Why does it have so difficult for us to achieve our true identity and acceptance?

I don't think there is an easy answer to either part of your question.

But I am comforted knowing that such existential musings are not limited to the alphabet community.

Self-awarenesss elicits such considerations.

Missy, Thanks for sharing your story. I know it can't be easy to go through retelling everything, but I am glad you have found comfort in sharing it here.  I fully understand not having someone to talk to about my trans issues.  While I have close friends I can confide in, even those who are trans, I feel comfort in talking in an anonymous forum.  I feel I can say more than I ever could while talking one on one with a friend.  This is one reason I came back to the online forums, the sense of community and support.

Your posts have been a pleasure to read and have given me many things to think and reflect upon.  And for this I am grateful.  I often feel that I don't have much to relate to those going through transition now, because I cannot remember specifically what it felt like after surgery. Or even what it was like to me a boy.  It all feels like a dream of a past life with no details to recall.  I only know I lived there, I was happy, but I cannot picture myself as who I was.  I am not sure I can describe it, all I know is I want to tell someone about this, and not sound crazy.

Anyway, I think I have digressed too much. Missy, thank you again for your story.  It touched me and had an impact.  Much love...

-Sarah

Quote from: Inarasarah on January 24, 2017, 12:10:33 AM
Missy, Thanks for sharing your story. I know it can't be easy to go through retelling everything, but I am glad you have found comfort in sharing it here.

Sarah,

You are welcome, and thank you, too. I was in a very bad place emotionally when I registered here and wrote my first post. I didn't think through what would come after I hit the 'post' button very clearly, I just felt a tremendous need to form the sentences and push the feelings I was having out of my head and into the larger universe. Beyond that first post, and perhaps a few others that came shortly afterward, I have truly been surprised at the amount of comfort I have found sharing with this community. My experiences here have been almost exclusively good, though I am beginning to feel I am beginning to get a bit of blowback from some with perspectives unlike or counter to my own. I guess the law of diminishing returns is finally starting come into play, and harbingers of my departure are sounding...

Quote from: Inarasarah on January 24, 2017, 12:10:33 AM
I fully understand not having someone to talk to about my trans issues.  While I have close friends I can confide in, even those who are trans, I feel comfort in talking in an anonymous forum.  I feel I can say more than I ever could while talking one on one with a friend.  This is one reason I came back to the online forums, the sense of community and support.

I have been away from anything and everything trans for over 4 years, I went full-time without trans-supoport, went to Brassard without trans-support, everything. I even dated a few trans-girls without telling them my history. I did eventually tell one girl, since she became very suspicious that I knew so much about HER issues, lol. But I was pre-op then, so disclosure was inevitable if we were to become intimate. I had another trans-girlfriend that I was virtually living with for 6 months after my surgery that I never disclosed to, and it was very validating for me to have vaginal sex with a trans-girl that remained clueless that my history was so similar to her own.

One of my prime directives in life is to never disclose anything to anybody, I have found that disclosure never helps me in any way, except to invalidate me as a genuine woman in the eyes and minds of others, in some fashion, and I did not go through all this pain, and effort, and expense to be seen as less than I am.

Quote from: Inarasarah on January 24, 2017, 12:10:33 AM
Your posts have been a pleasure to read and have given me many things to think and reflect upon.  And for this I am grateful. 

Thank you, I am happy that you have enjoyed my input, and even happier my input has been thought-provoking..

Quote from: Inarasarah on January 24, 2017, 12:10:33 AM
I often feel that I don't have much to relate to those going through transition now, because I cannot remember specifically what it felt like after surgery. Or even what it was like to me a boy.  It all feels like a dream of a past life with no details to recall.  I only know I lived there, I was happy, but I cannot picture myself as who I was.  I am not sure I can describe it, all I know is I want to tell someone about this, and not sound crazy.

I feel very similar things. But having only been restored to full awareness for less than two months, after being floridly dissociative for so many years, I am kinda remembering my de-transition journey 'out loud' here for my own benefit as well as to share with those still in the thick of it. But, yes, my internal narrative has been completely over-written by my current reality, and it is so vague, the past, unless I am very specifically digging into pockets of past memory, I could easily imagine that none of that ever really happened. One of my sisters told me the other day that she can't remember a time when I wasn't a girl, either, and that she doesn't miss the old me at all, and that she loves having me as I am in her life very much. We have become very close, closer than ever.

Quote from: Inarasarah on January 24, 2017, 12:10:33 AM

Anyway, I think I have digressed too much. Missy, thank you again for your story.  It touched me and had an impact.  Much love...

-Sarah

Thanks, again, Sarah. Knowing I have had even a tiny positive impact here makes me very glad I stayed as long as I have. But I do feel I have perhaps overstayed my welcome, and I don't know how much longer it will serve me, nor anybody else, either. But I do know that I have had many, many wonderful new insights into myself and other gender-variant lives since arriving, and when I go, I will leave a better, and more fully realized human being.

Many thanks, to all that have enriched me here!

Missy

Missy - Don't Go!

Soo, I got an email from my friend-with-benefits, ex-bf, this morning. Seems he felt compelled to tell me his now pursuing another woman, and that he hopes I am okay..

Yeah. I'm just dandy. Feeling super passive-aggressive, but hey, otherwise, sure, I'm great...

We had a TON in common, got along great, had super conversations, we communicated very well, but...

But, I told him my history, and now, he is gone, again...

I really am going to be okay. Just not yet...

I also got an email this morning, from a cis woman I used to date, the one that is a trans-phobe. She is putting out feelers to see if I might want to try again with her. She says she 'enjoyed me', lol..

I can do better than either of these two. I must do better than either of these two. I need to move on, leave the past behind, and keep my heart safe, my mind open, and see beyond my own self-doubt and insecurity and loneliness...

I'll be okay.

Sure.

Time for a good, long cry first...

:-(

OMG, soo sorry, way too harsh and painful.  Wish there was an appropriate salve, balm or offering one could make to help.

Knowing you, only through these pages, convinces me that you are right on...you can and will do better than that.  You are wonderfully thoughtful, creative and expressive and you will rise above that noise.  Your love deserves to be answered with love as great.

Passing the Kleenex box your way...

Yup a good cry can be great.

You can be better than those two.  As my youngest daughters says, "No discounts"(as in doubting or putting oneself down).

Sleep can be pretty great if you can spare the time and drift off as well. Then wake to the you that is clear and positive and moving forward.

Now, I just need to take my own advice ;)

With warmth,

Joanna

Quote from: Tessa James on January 26, 2017, 02:30:20 PM
You are wonderfully thoughtful, creative and expressive and you will rise above that noise.  Your love deserves to be answered with love as great.

Passing the Kleenex box your way...

Thank you, Tessa!!

I had my cry, and sobbed it out, wallowed in it for a moment, just enough to feel the anguish, so as to be sure I remember how such things feel..

Then I ran a hot bubble bath, lit some scented candle, put some sweet sax music on, compliments of Sonny Rollins, and soaked away the tension. Then I shaved my legs, switched on the whirlpool jets, and stretched my back and legs and arms. I feel much better now!

Next, after a moment on my back on my bed, I'm gonna put a chicken on the rotisserie in the countertop convection oven my sisters bought me for Christmas...

I see the rain has turned to snow here, and everything is now covered in what looks like a sugar frosting! What a wonderfully appropriate turn of events..

Thank you for the compliments.  :)

Missy

Quote from: Joanna50 on January 26, 2017, 02:33:27 PM
You can be better than those two.  As my youngest daughters says, "No discounts"(as in doubting or putting oneself down).

Thank you, Joanna!

These two are left-overs from when I was in pieces, floridly dissociating, and using dating sites to find lovers..

They are the last of that bad news, and good riddance, from now on, I am only going for full retail, no cutting corners to fill the voids in my life. You daughters are wise beyond their years!

:-) Missy

Sooo, today, today, today...

Not the best day ever...

I've been thinking a LOT about my upcoming visit to my endo/gyno/trans/intersex specialist. In the past I had told him I was over and done with being tested and examined and re-diagnosed and generally seen as anything other than a woman...

But, now I am thinking differently. And those thoughts are undermining 5 years of transitional efforts. Why? Because I am almost positive that the unexplained portion of my anatomical 'differences' are due to Norethisterone exposure in utero. I have already been diagnosed with DES exposure, but the degree of differentiation in my exterior sex organs was not consistent with just DES, and there is more. DES does not typically impact neurological development, not to the degree that my brain seems to have been altered. I thought the male-ish characteristics were due to my male upbringing, or the influence of my 'male' alter personalities. But, I am over 5 years post-transition, and my personalities have all integrated and unified, basically I am 'cured' of my multiple personality disorder. And yet, though my body is genetically female, and my appearance and social skills reflect that of a cis woman, somehow, in some ways, I now sometimes feel like I am a little bit of a man in a woman's body. Yes, I know I am a woman, and my gender identity is female, but when I am thinking certain things, using certain portions of my brain, I know that I am in 'male' territory. Up until recently, I thought I could explain this phenomenon away as relics and remnants of my past programming, or whatever, but what I am beginning to feel, against all my efforts to reject such a notion, is that my basic wiring, not the grey and white matter tissues, that is all female, but the actual conduits of consciousness, those wires, some of them, they 'feel' and 'perform' in a typically male fashion, like right now. This post is being written from such a place, a place of succinct analytical clarity. And I hate that, I don't want such clarity, nor do I welcome such analysis. I just want to be a woman thinking as a woman thinks. Period!!

Yes, I go back and forth, and the overall effect looks like gender-fluidity. But it isn't about gender. It is about neurological reality. How does one 'transition' away from a mixed-gender brain?

Is it any wonder that I can attract straight males from a distance, yet somehow, no matter how sincere the attraction, something about me just 'seems' off. Sometimes they begin to suspect I am trans, other times, they eventually say I am too masculine, but they cannot say for sure 'how' I am masculine. It is something they perceive, but cannot define. My presentation is feminine, and female, and so on. But, somehow, things never work out..

Damn.

Sooo, yeah. I need to engage my doctor's expertise fully. I need to know what is real and what is not, what is perception, and what is belief.

I need to know the absolute truth about my physiology.

Nothing less will suffice.

Did I mention I was having a bad day?

Yeah. I am.

Missy,

That sucks.

So sorry for how you feel right now. I remember hearing that much a person's personality is cemented in by the time they are X(somewhere between 4 and 7, I don't remember). Is it possible that that alone would be enough? It has been 5 years you say but what fraction of your life is that?

Not trying to grasp at straws... I hope your visit with the doctor is helpful for you.

With warmth,

Joanna

Quote from: Joanna50 on January 31, 2017, 08:39:28 AM
Missy,

That sucks.

So sorry for how you feel right now. I remember hearing that much a person's personality is cemented in by the time they are X(somewhere between 4 and 7, I don't remember). Is it possible that that alone would be enough? It has been 5 years you say but what fraction of your life is that?

Not trying to grasp at straws... I hope your visit with the doctor is helpful for you.

With warmth,

Joanna

Joanna,

By the time I was 7, I had 10 alters, all female. Soo, I am not sure how or if traditional psychological concepts about child personality/developmental theories apply, or whether they only apply to 'singlets', sooo, I dunno. Seems to me that since all my young personalities were girls, this shouldn't be an issue now. But this issue is consistent with having a masculinized brain structure due to in utero progestin exposure...

Yes, my 5 years of HRT and female re-socialization are only a fraction of my life experience, but this phenomenon doesn't seem to be sociological in nature. It seems to be deeper than behavior and culture. It seems to be neurological. Thus, my worry that no matter how much HRT I have, no matter how 'perfect' my female life, no matter ow deeply stealth I live successfully, there will always be this reality lurking beneath my skull, popping into my experience as context dictates and circumstances warrant...

I need to know if this is a permanent structural reality, lest I find myself hating that which I am, rather than that which I do..

Missy

Weird, I haven't felt like 'boy brain' has been working at all today, yay!!!

Maybe I am still sorta meshing the different personalities and wires and stuff together, since I've only been 'whole' for two months, fingers crossed! :-)

Missy

Thanks for sharing your story MissGender. I am happy to see the outpouring of support here and also extend the same. Wishing you love and peace. Keep hanging in there. The world needs you!

Quote from: TigerLilyNYC on February 04, 2017, 09:45:07 AM
Thanks for sharing your story MissGender. I am happy to see the outpouring of support here and also extend the same. Wishing you love and peace. Keep hanging in there. The world needs you!

((HUGS))

Thank you, hun!!

Quote from: MissGendered on February 03, 2017, 11:17:50 PM
Weird, I haven't felt like 'boy brain' has been working at all today, yay!!!

Maybe I am still sorta meshing the different personalities and wires and stuff together, since I've only been 'whole' for two months, fingers crossed! :-)

Missy

Yay!! indeed. Slow but steady ?

With warmth,

Joanna

Missy, When one lives a life in one gender even though misaligned for the length of time that you have, and for that matter most of us older generation have, it is inevitable that there will be times when we seem to revert back to that time in our life. I relate to it as being similar to muscle memory, our brain has memories of our past and they will  continue to be there with us. You obviously have a tremendous amount of inner strength to have been able to survive the amount of abuse and personal struggles that have been a part of your life until now. That strength shows through with your original posting and response to others, and have been a inspiration to others, myself included. Continue to share your journey, your thoughts are most appreciated. Take care and hugs

Quote from: Joanna50 on February 06, 2017, 03:39:39 AM
Yay!! indeed. Slow but steady ?

With warmth,

Joanna

Hi Joanna!

I haven't seen you around lately, I hope all is well in your world! Thank you for your steady support and continued kindnesses. The welcome and acceptance you have extended to me is a big part of why I keep coming back. I do, of course, frequently have moments of self-criticism and insecurity while I am here. I do still feel like a bit of a duck in the henhouse, but this time, thankfully, I am not being pecked to death by the resident chickens, lol. It has been very good for me to be able to listen and learn, as well as to throw my own thoughts out there and see just what I am thinking without filtering, and to have feedback from others that have similar life experiences. While I am likely to always have deep down feelings of being different from anybody and everybody else on this here spinning planet, whether cis, trans, intersex, gay, bi, or straight, there are aspects of myself I see echoed here more than anywhere out in cis-dom. I have truly enjoyed and benefitted from this experience, even when it has pushed my envelope, and expanded my need for personal growth. Thank you!

Much, much love, and appreciation!

Missy

Quote from: Denni on February 06, 2017, 10:42:03 AM
Missy, When one lives a life in one gender even though misaligned for the length of time that you have, and for that matter most of us older generation have, it is inevitable that there will be times when we seem to revert back to that time in our life. I relate to it as being similar to muscle memory, our brain has memories of our past and they will  continue to be there with us. You obviously have a tremendous amount of inner strength to have been able to survive the amount of abuse and personal struggles that have been a part of your life until now. That strength shows through with your original posting and response to others, and have been a inspiration to others, myself included. Continue to share your journey, your thoughts are most appreciated. Take care and hugs

Hi Denni!

I am hoping that what you describe is in fact what I am going through at this point. I will seek better understanding of my physical differences though, because I think I am at a place emotionally where I can handle a bit more information as I go forward. For many years, I wasn't wanting to think about cells and neurons and genetics, I just wanted a purse that matched all my stuff and was big enough to hold my daily necessities, lol. Those were the days, ha!

I really do hope that by sharing my journey I am helping somebody else, somewhere, that faces similar challenges. I can't ever be sure if what I say is more likely to offend than inspire, since so much of my path is binary-driven and  specific to my need to undo that which was done to me. I have a very deep need to not feel different, while so many here are rightly celebrating their difference, and find disclosure to be so very empowering. For me, it is the opposite, disclosure robs me of my peace, and puts me into the 'other' category, again, and against my will, and counter to my emotional and psychological wellbeing.

But I am also trying to recognize the importance of sharing this part of my path with the many transitioners that have similar goals. I am not the only girl that wants or needs to be seen as just another woman, with no 'otherness' in play. For them, I really do hope I can shine a light forward. Stealth is not as hard as one might imagine, but it takes time to cultivate and achieve. It gets easier over time, just like most aspects of transition, and life in general..

Thank you for taking the time to drop in and say hello, and to be so nice to me. Messages like yours warm my heart, and sooth my fears, I do very much appreciate that!

Missy

Hi Missy,

I have work in theatre. Between that and my family I often am pulled away in the early evenings and week ends. So I tend to disappear then. Every so often when designing a big show, I am off for a couple weeks or more. I try to check in if someone has messaged me but respond less often.

I too have learned much from you and about myself from your posts. I would like to think in a face to face world we would be fast friends.

I understand how you feel different with your past challenges. I have started attending group social meetings in the past year and still feel a little on the outside. It's is not like your experience and probably because I am new, but still just feel a little off. Even occasionally here.

It has been great having you here. Thanks again for your posts and your kind words.

Most warmly,

Joanna

Quote from: Joanna50 on February 07, 2017, 08:03:56 AM
Hi Missy,

I have work in theatre. Between that and my family I often am pulled away in the early evenings and week ends. So I tend to disappear then. Every so often when designing a big show, I am off for a couple weeks or more. I try to check in if someone has messaged me but respond less often.

I too have learned much from you and about myself from your posts. I would like to think in a face to face world we would be fast friends.

I understand how you feel different with your past challenges. I have started attending group social meetings in the past year and still feel a little on the outside. It's is not like your experience and probably because I am new, but still just feel a little off. Even occasionally here.

It has been great having you here. Thanks again for your posts and your kind words.

Most warmly,

Joanna

Joanna,

Ahh, theater, yes, once upon a time...

I do believe you are right, in real life, we would hit it off instantly.

My issue with theater in my present life, would be the difficulty not being scrutinized for transness amongst so many LGBT-ers. They tend to be out and proud in such circles, and are consumate 'trans-spotters'. I had an experience when early in transition, while selling some of 'dead name's' things, where an openly gay fellow and his 'no, I'm not gay' friend came by to look over some items. They gendered me correctly, but when demonstrating the said 'boy items', the out and proud gay guy's face lit up, and he reaches up and tugs his one earring, and asks me 'how long has it been'. I acted like I had no idea what he was talking about, and said 'oh, I haven't used this thing in ages'. He presses on "no, hey, I'm gay, how long since you transitioned?". I looked up at him and said I was born female, but he would not let it go. He was smugly satisfied he had spotted a trans woman, and he was proud to have been so clever. His buddy then offers, 'well, your voice is kinda low, that's what gave you away". I did the deal, and hurried them out the door, mortified. My sister has a voice lower than my worst voice, and that kind of arrogance was completely unwarranted and unhelpful. So, I know better than to hang out with gay men anymore, or gay women, for that matter, or, heck, even trans people, they can be just as unwittingly unhelpful. I have much love for all of the above, but, my need for privacy outweighs everything else. Unless I tell my WHOLE story, somebody that thinks I am trans will never let go of that belief, once acquired. Even with full disclosure, they will want to group me under the trans umbrella, or at least 'other' me. Cis/straight women do not do this, though both gay and straight men do. Cis/straight women invariably see me as one of their own, but as somebody that went through incredible hell and survived all of it well, even though I am bi. So, I tend to socialize with cic/women almost exclusively as a result, but I do welcome time with bi gals whenever possible. And honestly, these are not bad crowds to hang with, anyway, ha!

Missy

I just sent you a pm. May I say how beautiful your avatar is.

I am so sorry how badly our own community has treated you. That is just too much. I guess it is like the other time you mentioned your gay friend who could not understand why not compliment the "trans" she spotted. I know that "gaydar" is almost a game among my gay friends, I guess I didn't realize it extended to us too.

I always look forward to your posts.

Warmly,

Joanna

Quote from: Joanna50 on February 07, 2017, 11:51:53 AM
I just sent you a pm. May I say how beautiful your avatar is.

I am so sorry how badly our own community has treated you. That is just too much. I guess it is like the other time you mentioned your gay friend who could not understand why not compliment the "trans" she spotted. I know that "gaydar" is almost a game among my gay friends, I guess I didn't realize it extended to us too.

I always look forward to your posts.

Warmly,

Joanna

Thank you, Joanna! I do only post older photos, for stealth reasons, and because I haven't taken any new ones in over two years now. I cannot believe how much I have changed. My sister and I were looking at old family photos last summer, and we came upon one in particular, and I was identifying the people in it with her, and one fellow was unfamiliar to me, so I asked out loud "hey, who's that?". My sister looked closely and was stumped for a moment, then we both suddenly realized that it was 'dead person' and we had a mutual 'oh, wowww' moment. She has completely let go of 'old name', and that warms my heart, but with a deep respect and gratitude that 'old name' kept me alive all those years, despite his pain and misery. He was a good guy, I would date him in a heartbeat if I met him now, I really would.

But I do want to be clear about something. It might well be imagined that my changes are due to my XX status, and that is an assumption that is both false, and invalidating, when held by anybody, especially bio-male MTFs. Chromosomes only play a small role in sexual differentiation, most secondary sexual characteristics depend on at least 25 other known genes that play significant roles in how our bodies develop, and both males and females have these genes. We all have seen very girly looking bio-males, and very man-like bio-females, right? And we have all seen bio-male MTFs that look ah-may-zingly gorgeous and feminine after a minimum of HRT and transitional effort. My body was highly masculinized by T dosing and HGH as a child. I looked like a biker, not a woman. I feel I had no advantage over any bio-male when it came time to transition, or rather, de-transition, and my results have not outpaced bio-males at all. It took several years of HRT to achieve the look you now see. It didn't come fast and hard, as I hoped, and I had to work to learn to unlearn my maleness just as bio-male MTFs do. I am not saying all this for your edification, I really think you understand this already, but I am saying it for the MTFs that will read this later, so as to clarify my situation, and allow them to realize that they likely may have as much or more potential for feminization than I did, or do..

Back to the gaydar thing. Yes, cis gay/lesbians seem to feel they have a right to out us as if we are a sub-sect of their experience, and that they have privilege over us. What that gay guy did was heartless and thoughtless and arrogant. What business is it of his to judge me or even broach such a subject, let alone feel superior enough to explicitly imply I was lying to him about being born female? How dare he? Right? Smug, self-satisfied moron, and his closeted buddy? How dare he critique my voice? How insulting and invalidating was that? Gay/cis privilege coupled with male patriarchal privilege, and a big dose of supposed moral superiority. No thanks, I will take the full acceptance of cis/straight women any day over hashing out my full history with such thoughtless people.

But, people are just people. There are idiots everywhere, but good, kind, thoughtful, open-minded, open-hearted people exist side-by-side with them. We are all living and learning, though some are learning faster than others, lol...

Thank you again, for your feedback and kindness. I always look forward to your replies, thank you so much!

Missy