Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Has anyone ever experienced that?

Sure, people are people. Educating them is the answer, just like it is outside of our community.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Absolutely. There are always going to be jealous people and folks who treat others differently.

I would imagine so.  Not just over looks, but also with where we are in life sometimes.  From a woman's perspective, we are naturally competitive creatures...sometimes to our detriment.

O-M-G, yesss...  ::)

It gets pretty sickening..

Thanks! I'm happy that I'm not the only one. The wisdom here is everything I swear.   :)

Oh heck yes. "If you're not transgender the way I am transgender then you're not really transgender." I see it almost every day on one forum or another.

I see it here too. The insistence that full transition is the ONLY way to be happy in the end is a common theme on this forum. After poking around for a while I have found whole communities of trans folks who are very happy without transitioning, or are happy on only HRT, and have been for decades. This board seems to be populated mostly by those who did find full transition was their answer, and that's okay. It is this board's "speciality." I stay because of the invaluable information I have found, and because it was the first forum I have been involved in. Susan's Place is an amazing resource for trans issues, even for those who have no interest in a full transition.

It's just one of the reasons I left San Francisco.

Heck, yes.  Whacky stuff like Cailan reports, other tunnel vision stuff from 'siloed communities', where folks just pay attention to each other and not the world outside.  I've gotten the 'not trans enough' thing for using pads in the bra.  I've gotten it for not being on HRT while presenting as female.  I've gotten it for not having any surgeries yet.

I've seen it in trans gatherings.  I've seen it in support groups.  It's ugly.

Many, perhaps most transgender folks seem satisfied by just occasionally presenting as themselves, the so-called cross-dressers.  They're perfectly nice folks, and fun to be with at events.  I'm really happy they've found a way to cope, often keeping their Significant Others, careers, and families while scratching that itch.  Some folks get enough from low dose HRT that they do just fine without disrupting their lives.

I'm a little bit jealous of them, actually.  I wish I could have done that, and kept my old life.

People seem to have a drive to find a difference and use it to make themselves feel superior to others.  That's a sad thing, but it seems to be a real phenomenon. 

There are many paths through life.  We each need to find ours, and not judge others who find theirs.


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I face it more from our community then I do the cis world.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on January 31, 2017, 11:06:09 PM
I face it more from our community then I do the cis world.

That was my experience exactly. Also the reason I left all trans spaces even before going full-time.

But I have found this site to be very nice, with great mods, and a very supportive, open-minded community of gender-variant individuals and allies. I can't say enough about how surprised I am by the general openness I find here, even when opinions differ. Very civil, very moderate.

I am glad I took a chance and registered.

Thank you, all of you!

Missy

Quote from: Cailan Jade on January 31, 2017, 09:03:30 PM
Oh heck yes. "If you're not transgender the way I am transgender then you're not really transgender." I see it almost every day on one forum or another.

I see it here too. The insistence that full transition is the ONLY way to be happy in the end is a common theme on this forum. After poking around for a while I have found whole communities of trans folks who are very happy without transitioning, or are happy on only HRT, and have been for decades. This board seems to be populated mostly by those who did find full transition was their answer, and that's okay. It is this board's "speciality." I stay because of the invaluable information I have found, and because it was the first forum I have been involved in. Susan's Place is an amazing resource for trans issues, even for those who have no interest in a full transition.

In my experience of the Forum and of the members I would put your comments slightly differently. There are those who have GCS and discuss it and there are those who have GCS and don't discuss it and those who do not have GCS and don't discuss it.

Certainly there is no bias from staff as to what an individual or a group decide how they wish to proceed in their lives. For many members it is a very private matter and one that I of course respect.

I absolutely have, which is why I don't have many trans friends. All the amounts of hate that I have received for looking "very fish and feminine" with not being on hormones (just started less than a week ago).. to not having to worry about finances when it comes to laser, hormones, general cosmetic hygiene, surgeries, etc.

The biggest one I got was because since I don't live my life as a trans woman, I must not be proud of being who I am. I am very proud of who I am, in fact I don't seem to give myself the credit I deserve, but just because I don't walk around screaming that I am transgender doesn't mean I should get the hate... especially within our community where support is the MOST important thing.

Quote from: jjordann on February 01, 2017, 12:57:23 AM
.. to not having to worry about finances when it comes to laser, hormones, general cosmetic hygiene, surgeries, etc.

This exact thing is what I've had the most from trans people in my own country, the financial thing.

You know, I do genuinely feel bad for.. I don't even know how to say it, being 'loaded'? I'm not rich or anything, but I am unusually financially secure for my age. At 25 I have and earn enough that I didn't need to consider finances when I wanted to start laser for my facial hair last year, I just did it.. Many other trans people here have no choice but wait for their application to the government to go through so most of the costs are covered.

And I DO feel bad about it, ashamed! I no longer really mention it when people within my country and community ask me about it, because I hate the sort of anger I've gotten in return.. It doesn't help that I try to explain how much I appreciate the incredibly fortunate situation I'm in. I absolutely recognize that being a spoiled brat is going to help me get a lot of things without any effort, that others are going to work very hard for.. And I hate that. I wish everyone had the opportunity that I do, to always pay for their HRT and laser, and get the surgeries they want in a timely fashion from professionals.

I feel real shame and I understand why people despise me for it.. But I do wish they would just keep the bile to themselves, cause I already know its unfair and unjust and sadly I don't have the kind of money to pay for them too. It kinda hurts when they keep poking on it.

Forgive me my long winded rant, I was a bit triggered by what you said :embarrassed:

Yes it's there, I'm not "really transexual" for liking punk rock, riding a Harley, interested in muscle cars, not wearing make up etc. Doing a gradual transition caused me a lot of earache, I grew my hair out, did a big chunk of electrolysis & was on HRT for 22 months before transition.

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 31, 2017, 11:02:41 PM
Heck, yes.  Whacky stuff like Cailan reports, other tunnel vision stuff from 'siloed communities', where folks just pay attention to each other and not the world outside.  I've gotten the 'not trans enough' thing for using pads in the bra.  I've gotten it for not being on HRT while presenting as female.  I've gotten it for not having any surgeries yet.

I've seen it in trans gatherings.  I've seen it in support groups.  It's ugly.

Many, perhaps most transgender folks seem satisfied by just occasionally presenting as themselves, the so-called cross-dressers.  They're perfectly nice folks, and fun to be with at events.  I'm really happy they've found a way to cope, often keeping their Significant Others, careers, and families while scratching that itch.  Some folks get enough from low dose HRT that they do just fine without disrupting their lives.

I'm a little bit jealous of them, actually.  I wish I could have done that, and kept my old life.

People seem to have a drive to find a difference and use it to make themselves feel superior to others.  That's a sad thing, but it seems to be a real phenomenon. 

There are many paths through life.  We each need to find ours, and not judge others who find theirs.


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+1

I don't have a "Transness" scale, they are who they are and I am no position to judge anyone. It is journey to scratch my itch, as was so well put, by Michelle

Liz 

I suppose I was lucky to find Susan's Place first. I have found everyone here to be really polite and helpful to myself and everyone else. I hadn't even realized there was this discrimination within the community until the subject was mentioned on some posts.

I can however admit to my own being jealous of others. I hate to feel that way but it does come up. I think it's pretty normal for females anyway. I've had jealous feelings pop up toward other women my whole life. Wishing I had a body like this girl or was pretty like that girl. There's a mom at my kids school who ALWAYS has everything done and perfect. She must spend 20 minutes every morning just doing her daughters hair. It drives me nuts but guess what, she drives all the other working moms nuts too.  :) So yeh, I get jealous feelings sometimes towards some of the girls here. I'm also very proud of them, happy for them, and wish them the best in life. I find everyone here to be an inspiration. I also long to reach the point of just living that it seems some have reached. I think these are all perfectly natural emotions.

It's important for any community to be "adult" enough to put jealousy away and support each other instead. That is what I have found here from everyone at Susan's Place.

Luv you all  :D

Back in the day, the biggest divide was between those who passed and those who didn't.  Now, of course, there are always exceptions -- but in general, those who didn't pass were jealous of those who did, and those who passed tended to discriminate against those who didn't -- namely, there would be no social contact out in public.

I think this is probably still true today.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 01, 2017, 09:58:48 AM
Back in the day, the biggest divide was between those who passed and those who didn't.  Now, of course, there are always exceptions -- but in general, those who didn't pass were jealous of those who did, and those who passed tended to discriminate against those who didn't -- namely, there would be no social contact out in public.

I think this is probably still true today.

Absolutely.  Amusingly enough, that means all my company in social environments outside the trans social support group (all not passing) are ciswomen. 

Passing transwomen with whom I have worked or have known in group therapy don't even acknowledge my existence.  Not really surprising, though.  I'm a risk.  When I get clocked, folks will also wonder about anyone I am with.  Passing transwomen don't want to lose privilege because of someone they are with.

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'


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Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:06:25 AM
Absolutely.  Amusingly enough, that means all my company in social environments outside the trans social support group (all not passing) are ciswomen. 

Passing transwomen with whom I have worked or have known in group therapy don't even acknowledge my existence.  Not really surprising, though.  I'm a risk.  When I get clocked, folks will also wonder about anyone I am with.  Passing transwomen don't want to lose privilege because of someone they are with.

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'



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I dated two trans girls that did not pass. Maybe it's different for me, I see myself as cis, so I dunno. One I dated for 6 months and she didn't even know I had once lived as a man, which was quite validating on an entirely different level. I did get eyed over when out with both of them, but I used those moments to build my defenses and self-confidence. It made me very aware of the cues I send out, and that voice and composure and comportment can overcome even such things as height and a bony face.

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:06:25 AMCiswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'

Yup.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that, generally speaking, once someone's had all their surgeries and the physical aspect of transition is over, they tend to disappear from trans spaces altogether.  This actually makes sense to me -- and not just because it was true for me as well.  Having run the gauntlet, it's just time to move on and see what the rest of life has to offer.  There's an aspect of burnout -- the process is so life-consuming.  And the kinds of conversations transpeople have eventually tend to recur over and over again, there's only so much to talk about, and then it becomes apparent just how little people have in common except this one thing.  It's kind of a relief to leave it all behind after being immersed in it for years.

I did stay in contact with a few select woman, though, after it was all over.  Some dear friends in another part of the country, whom I still see on occasion.  And locally, one woman who was determined to live her life in the same way I was to live mine, namely with a closed narrative -- meaning we had a similar philosophical take on all this, in addition to having other things in common and just genuinely enjoying each others' company, though eventually we drifted apart -- as I moved and she got married.

In thinking about it, folks who have truly completed their transition probably should leave the trans community and just live their lives.  Wasn't that the original goal of transition, to just be a woman?  All the energy that was devoted to transition can be redirected to new goals in their lives, to better themselves and the world around them.

We have goals in life.  When we achieve them, isn't it time to set new goals?

I suspect that transition burnout, pumping too much energy into transition to the exclusion of everything else, is a real thing.  That's part of why I've been seeking connections in the broader community, rather than sticking with strictly trans or LGBT groups. 

At the same time, I've got a strong drive to improve life for transgender folks, as I don't want anyone else to have to go through a life like mine.    Again, connecting with the broader community is important, as a transgender person. Most folks think they've never met or known a transgender person.  (In many cases, I know better. ;) )  I'll take advantage of my decidedly obvious in-betweeny state and self-promotion instinct to make some educational noise. 

That will likely make me an outcast or pariah with some trans folks.  Seriously.  Nobody wants to be outed by association.  At the same time, I hope I really can contribute to making life better.



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Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 01, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
Yup.

The other thing I forgot to mention is that, generally speaking, once someone's had all their surgeries and the physical aspect of transition is over, they tend to disappear from trans spaces altogether.  This actually makes sense to me -- and not just because it was true for me as well.  Having run the gauntlet, it's just time to move on and see what the rest of life has to offer.  There's an aspect of burnout -- the process is so life-consuming.  And the kinds of conversations transpeople have eventually tend to recur over and over again, there's only so much to talk about, and then it becomes apparent just how little people have in common except this one thing.  It's kind of a relief to leave it all behind after being immersed in it for years.

Yes, this is also very, very true. So true, in fact, that I was not willing to have those conversations at all, even with the trans girl I dated last year. I was ok with listening and watching her go through her issues, and being supportive, but I just could not unwind the clock and re-live my transition with her, I was done with all that, and it was very nice to be able to not have to participate any more.

In fact, I suppose I wouldn't have ever come back to a trans space like this, had I not outed myself to my now ex-boyfriend and been rejected as a result. The mental and emotional anguish from being seen as 'less than cis' was overwhelming, and I just needed a place to vent that pain where I knew others would understand. I am glad, though, that I did come back, I have learned so much more than I bargained for, about others, and especially, about myself and the remaining work I need to do to undo my past more completely.

I used to think I couldn't ever consider another transitioned person as a life partner, because of my selfish need to insulate myself from the bad feelings of my pre-transitional life. But since being here, I have had a change of heart, perhaps a burst of personal growth, and I suddenly see that as a welcome option. Funny, how we change over time. Experience and emotional expansion can open doors we once thought closed and nailed shut.

So, yes, I do realize that this is also a form of discrimination within 'our community'. Guilty as charged.

We live and learn. Thank goodness!

Missy

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:06:25 AM


Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'

That's not true. A lot of larger framed women, those who aren't particularly feminine and may have masculine features, DO worry about "failing to pass." CIS women 5'9" and taller who have a stocky or square frame, those who aren't supermodel types, tend to worry about being mistaken for non-passing transwomen a lot. And when that mistake does happen, it's humiliating and devastating, a blow to the feminine ego that eats at you. I know, because that was me from age 15 until the time I realized I was bigender, and it's a common subject discussed between CIS women of that body type.

Quote from: Cailan Jade on February 01, 2017, 11:27:53 AM
That's not true. A lot of larger framed women, those who aren't particularly feminine and may have masculine features, DO worry about "failing to pass." CIS women 5'9" and taller who have a stocky or square frame, those who aren't supermodel types, tend to worry about being mistaken for non-passing transwomen a lot. And when that mistake does happen, it's humiliating and devastating, a blow to the feminine ego that eats at you. I know, because that was me from age 15 until the time I realized I was bigender, and it's a common subject discussed between CIS women of that body type.

Interesting.  I was unaware that there were ciswomen who had felt the hammer blows of misgendering.

I know I won't pass, and I'm resigned to having to deal with the constant misgendering.  It does hurt, a lot, but that's something I have to put up with if I am to deal with my dysphoria and be my authentic self.  It's a big factor in my decision to just be out there and make some noise for decent treatment. 

I don't know what could be done for ciswomen who have to deal with the devastating blow of being taken as a transwoman like me.  I wish our culture wasn't so damn judgmental and caste-oriented, but it is.


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I've been ripped by gender-fluid trans people because I am binary. Since I aim to "go all the way," I am somehow abandoning trans people and I am an elitist. Quite frankly that line of thinking sickens me, I felt like a mob of people who are "proud to identify as trans," as they put it, set upon me to prove that I'm a terrible traitor for wanting to pass and disappear as a woman. They want to steal the community from me.

They also attacked my ability to obtain hormones and surgeries, without a shred of evidence as to how exactly I obtained my surgeries or my hormones. I will work and pay for whatever it takes for me to find my peace and happiness, for all I know these people are working part time jobs and driving cars they can't afford while they whine about what they can't have. That's not my style, it has never been.

On the one hand, I stand united with all trans people, and I always will because all of our experiences are similar. But to counter these people's bias, I wonder aloud who really travels the easier path - someone who doesn't worry about passing but endures endless discrimination, or someone who lives in fear and suffers through financial and physical agony along a very uncertain road to completion?

Intuitively i know that all communities and sectors of society have sub-groups that do get a long, that fight and bicker over petty things, that seek to divide themselves into "higher and lower" value etc. This is part of humanity's selfish and inhumane nature.

Personally, i have not seen a lot of this myself. This is perhaps in part, because i don't hang out with a lot of trans folks. It's not purposeful that i do not, it is just how my life has unfolded socially. I'd like to go to support groups etc, but can never seem to find the time. I do go to pride and I do casually know a few trans people, and i have never felt hostility or discrimination of any type.

Also the whole " women are competitive" and thus mean to one another i do not see at all, which sort of confuses me because i see people say that online a lot and you see it as part of entertainment and elsewhere. All the women in my social circle are accepting and kind people, otherwise i would likely not hang out with them. In casual social contact with women in my business, at venues like bars and concerts, i don't see it either. At least outwardly i see generally pleasant people. Behind one's back? who knows and I really don't care much about that.

I asked my wife about this fairly recently and her opinion was basically; women can be mean and self-centered sure, all people can, but i don't see any specific sort of treatment that is among women"

This phenomena of creating a "circular firing squad" bedevils all kinds of groups and is, of course, not unique to our community.  There may always be someone who judges themselves superior to you and I.  Acting on our judgmental attitudes is even more pernicious.

It can be especially hurtful to be part of a reviled, hated and marginalized group only to be shredded by one who consider themselves to be more transgender than you or I.  One of my worst public experiences was being dressed down by another transgender woman who critiqued my presentation as unacceptably male in her opinion.  The funny thing is that she felt she was doing me and the trans community a favor!  Yup, a foolish consistency is more highly valued than diversity by some folks, so get in line for my class on proper deportment. ;) ;D ;D

Still, this is part of our currently reality.  I was reminded that I can not stay in support group mode or be surrounded only by well wishers without furthering the concept of living in an unrealistic bubble. 

How do we change this?  How do we, as a community and as an individual, really welcome new voices and ideas.  How do we celebrate and honor diversity and inclusion?  How do we draw that bigger circle that brings us all together?  How do we further awareness without being seen as a little different.

I get it and have also experienced the OMG experience of a trans person who I find uncomfortably dissonant with their expressed gender identity.  I know those are my fears and stereotypes at work and I want to turn that around.  The first notable time I saw a person that appeared male with a full beard and wearing a dress was about 1975 at an LGBTQ event.  I loved their bravery and unique declaration of personal freedom.  Decades later as i sought to improve my own congruent appearance I had to stifle the urge to suggest a newbie shave their chest before wearing a dress.  Suddenly I was about to considering myself some judge for other trans people.

I guess this is yet another opportunity to challenge ourselves and be the change we want to see in the world.

I guess I am lucky.  I am aware that discrimination occurs within the trans community, but I have not encountered it.  If it happens on this forum, it must be rare.  I don't browse all the subforums, so perhaps it occurs in forums I don't read regularly.  I suspect it is less common here than in other places on the Internet.

In real life, most of the trans people I have met are in the support group I attend weekly.  The group policy is that there is no right or wrong way to be trans, and the policy is announced regularly and enforced by the moderators.  To be honest, there has been little need for enforcement.  It is a good group.

Yep, It's pretty obvious most of the time. As much as there is a community, there is bigotry, hate, jealousy, and people who want to make sure you know you don't belong, for whatever reasons

I guess I will add my two cents and maybe a little of my own prejudice. I don't think jealousy is a problem. I see people I am jealous of all the time. I get jealous of those who have surgery or look like this or like that. It is a natural emotion and although it is not one of my better qualities I don't deny it. I think the problem is more one of respect. If I am jealous of someone and because of it, I act like a jerk to that person, that is the problem. If I act like I am better than someone else based on looks or trans philosophy, it is not cool at all.
Sounds okay so far, but this is where I might get myself in hot water. I am not a fan of a show like RuPaul's Drag Show. People who like that type of entertainment, well that is there choice. I would not treat someone mean who likes it or does it. It bothers me for one reason. Trans people (until maybe last year) are seen on TV like almost never. I think the show portrays an already misunderstood minority as a caricature of who we really are. It shows an extreme minority of the minority as being typical of the group. Maybe this is based on a misunderstanding on my part. Trans people are fighting for respect. Maybe when we are seen as real, caring, feeling people by the general public we will stop being murdered.
(That realness is not about any particular look in my opinion.)
Monica

I don't think Drag Kings and Queens are that much of a minority, and  in any event, they are part of our community with all of its beautiful diversity.

Hugs, Devlyn

Oh yeah that happens a lot, especially in the tumblr trans community. They call themselves  'truscum' or 'transmedicalists' and bash everyone who disagrees with them, isn't binary, doesn't pass or can't/won't transition how they want them to. It makes me feel horrible about myself

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I guess i didnt think it was so widespread :(

Quote from: frnkierondthedysphoria on February 01, 2017, 08:10:36 PM
Oh yeah that happens a lot, especially in the tumblr trans community. They call themselves  'truscum' or 'transmedicalists' and bash everyone who disagrees with them, isn't binary, doesn't pass or can't/won't transition how they want them to. It makes me feel horrible about myself

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As someone who considers themselves to be a transmedicalist, I would like to say that I'm sorry you've had negative interactions with people who think the same way that I do.

I think the behaviors you're describing are very unique to Tumblr where it is easy to maintain complete anonymity and have no backlash. There is a pretty peaceful coexistence (to the point that it never even comes up) in Facebook groups, ->-bleeped-<-, here, etc. and if you haven't already, I'd encourage you to branch out from Tumblr and see if the grass isn't greener elsewhere. Tumblr IMO is kind of a toxic place and I feel like I can scarcely even call it a "community".

Hi all,

Just a few thoughts I wanted to add to this. I don't think it is just because I am staff but I would like to think we have a community here that is a little easier and more tolerant than some others. That is not to say that people don't occasionally post something that is not cool. However, the staff does try to get rid of that as quickly as possible. There is no policy or Term of Service that puts Trans binary people above or at a different level from any other flavor of trans person. Just as a reminder, if you see something you think is wrong, just click on the Report to Moderator button that appears on the lower right of every post. It will ask for a description and you just write what you think is wrong( ;D see what I did there with the end of that sentence).

Prejudice occurs and has occurred for all time and communities. That does not make it right and people should be called out for it. At the same time, I understand and agree that for those who feel they have completed their transitions, it may be hard to stay in the community and on sites. That is why I appreciate those who have gone through so much and still help out those of us making the long, slog to our goal.

I would also like to mention that I know what Floof means talking about feeling guilty. That is something all people who are privileged should look at and find a good way to move on with. What I mean is whether it is having enough to eat, having shelter, having the money or insurance to get medical procedures done(life threatening or otherwise). There are many in the world who do not have any of these things. Live your life, do what you can for others. If you can do more, do it.  If you can't give money, volunteer. If you don't have the time, find a way to contribute, that you can afford. If you are young and none of that is possible yet, write an IOU in your calendar for 3-10 years and see if you can do something then. I think most of us here have had a lifetime(whatever age you are it is still your lifetime) of shame, guilt and pain. Just because you are able to afford procedures, clothes, wigs, therapy... to alleviate it does not make it any less real.

Sorry. My sermon is done.  ^-^ I kinda feel strongly about that.

With warmth,

Joanna

Quote from: FTMax on February 01, 2017, 08:44:40 PM
As someone who considers themselves to be a transmedicalist, I would like to say that I'm sorry you've had negative interactions with people who think the same way that I do.

I think the behaviors you're describing are very unique to Tumblr where it is easy to maintain complete anonymity and have no backlash. There is a pretty peaceful coexistence (to the point that it never even comes up) in Facebook groups, ->-bleeped-<-, here, etc. and if you haven't already, I'd encourage you to branch out from Tumblr and see if the grass isn't greener elsewhere. Tumblr IMO is kind of a toxic place and I feel like I can scarcely even call it a "community".

Thank you for your kind words. I've met a few nice transmeds but I will agree that Tumblr is a horrible place for that kind of ideology since there will always be someone who gets carried away with their thoughts

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Quote from: Joanna50 on February 02, 2017, 09:45:47 AM
I would also like to mention that I know what Floof means talking about feeling guilty. That is something all people who are privileged should look at and find a good way to move on with. What I mean is whether it is having enough to eat, having shelter, having the money or insurance to get medical procedures done(life threatening or otherwise). There are many in the world who do not have any of these things. Live your life, do what you can for others. If you can do more, do it.  If you can't give money, volunteer. If you don't have the time, find a way to contribute, that you can afford. If you are young and none of that is possible yet, write an IOU in your calendar for 3-10 years and see if you can do something then. I think most of us here have had a lifetime(whatever age you are it is still your lifetime) of shame, guilt and pain. Just because you are able to afford procedures, clothes, wigs, therapy... to alleviate it does not make it any less real.

OMG that hit me right in the feels.. Thank you <3

I am probably guilty of the discrimination, albeit not consciously intentional.  I am a very judgmental person.  I am not specifically judgmental to trans*, though.  I just am to everyone.  My wife and I can spend the entire day on the bench in a mall and judge everyone that walks by.  It is entertaining to us.  Perhaps we should not be this way...I mean, she and I are in no way without flaws. LOL  Seiously. LOL    Never the less, I think we as humans do this sort of thing instinctively, and it is not always with the forethought of how others might be hurt or harmed by it.

Having said that, I would like to add:  I absolutely LOVE RuPaul's Drag Race!!!  I used to hate it because I felt it de-legitimized trans* and our struggles for acceptance, but omg, it is so hilarious and entertaining.  No wonder RuPaul got an Emmy!!  Yep, so I do not miss an episode now...

Quote from: ainsley on February 02, 2017, 11:55:58 AM
I am probably guilty of the discrimination, albeit not consciously intentional.  I am a very judgmental person.  I am not specifically judgmental to trans*, though.  I just am to everyone.  My wife and I can spend the entire day on the bench in a mall and judge everyone that walks by.  It is entertaining to us.  Perhaps we should not be this way...I mean, she and I are in no way without flaws. LOL  Seiously. LOL    Never the less, I think we as humans do this sort of thing instinctively, and it is not always with the forethought of how others might be hurt or harmed by it.
..

What sort of judgement though? I believe judgement is sort a loaded word and can mean many things. The word judge at its base meaning is just to form an opinion or conclusion. We sit and people watch too and most of my judgement is like..."Cute boots" " "Nice outfit i'd totally wear that".

I think where humans start to go wrong is the constant need to find a pecking order or "she is better than her" " I am better than her because...." This is sort of primal instinct that was at least somewhat based in the need to compete for limited resources", but its not a good one. There is a clear path to acts of discrimination from there. I think we sometimes do this subconsciously as you point out.

I try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance) . I try not to assign value or position on those opinions, because in the end. That is hubris of a blatant nature. Who am I to assign value to other people?

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 01, 2017, 09:58:48 AM
Back in the day, the biggest divide was between those who passed and those who didn't.  Now, of course, there are always exceptions -- but in general, those who didn't pass were jealous of those who did, and those who passed tended to discriminate against those who didn't -- namely, there would be no social contact out in public.

I think this is probably still true today.

It is so funny you say this because I am so nervous to go out to even the local support group for this very reason!  I have yet to go out as Paula and it is supposed to be a safe place but I just can't get past the feel I will be judged because I cannot pass BY those who are.  I am by no means saying they will and maybe I am just using that as an excuse. 
Paula

Quote from: PaulaLee on February 02, 2017, 12:48:11 PM
It is so funny you say this because I am so nervous to go out to even the local support group for this very reason!  I have yet to go out as Paula and it is supposed to be a safe place but I just can't get past the feel I will be judged because I cannot pass BY those who are.  I am by no means saying they will and maybe I am just using that as an excuse. 
Paula

Oh, I certainly hope the support group doesn't do that!

Support groups are supposed to SUPPORT.  The facilitator will try to keep the group meetings non-judgemental and supportive.  Therapist-run groups often require an intake session, one-on-one with the therapist and the candidate to join a group, specifically to make sure the person is appropriate for that group.

Even the non-therapy social support groups do this to a lesser extent, via peer pressure on members with an exclusionary lean to be more accepting and open.  It seems to work well in the groups I'm involved with.

We have, for example, members who due to their schedule constraints have had to come to meetups in drab.  No big deal, although we do try to be as sympathetic as possible to their discomfort.  We have non-binary members, with non-binary presentation.  We're comfortable with them and I hope they are comfortable with us.  We have gender-fluid members, a surprise at every meeting, "And, who are we today?"

Paula, the support group is there to support you.   Go, and go as you feel most comfortable.


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Quote from: RobynD on February 02, 2017, 12:26:35 PM
What sort of judgement though? I believe judgement is sort a loaded word and can mean many things. The word judge at its base meaning is just to form an opinion or conclusion. We sit and people watch too and most of my judgement is like..."Cute boots" " "Nice outfit i'd totally wear that".

I think where humans start to go wrong is the constant need to find a pecking order or "she is better than her" " I am better than her because...." This is sort of primal instinct that was at least somewhat based in the need to compete for limited resources", but its not a good one. There is a clear path to acts of discrimination from there. I think we sometimes do this subconsciously as you point out.

I try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance) . I try not to assign value or position on those opinions, because in the end. That is hubris of a blatant nature. Who am I to assign value to other people?

Cute boots, nice outfit, stupid hair, bad makeup, ...you name it.  We judge. :)  We are catty bitches, most of the time.  But, we do it between just the two of us.  I think we do it to build ourselves up, not tear others down.   I think that is what humans do.  I think it is what women do more than men.  I would posit that all women do it in their mind, but filter what comes out so as to not offend.  I think I am guilty of that, and sometimes, perhaps, just maybe, my face or demeanor does not filter what my mind did.  I am not perfect, nor ill intended.  I think it is an inherent and societal-learned thing we do.  I certainly try to overcome it.  I, too, try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance).

I am clockable.  So?  I don't call people out for clocking me, either.  They inherently do it.  They aren't ill intended, either.  I have a higher than normal level of apathy about me.  And I am not above the fray; I clock other people, too....  I am guilty of "Discrimination/Jealousy within our own community".

So, my point is that we may experience Discrimination/Jealousy within our own community, but it may not be ill intended, but, rather, ill controlled instinctive behavior.  I recommend a tall glass of apathy with a pink umbrella in it.  :icon_archery: :icon_birthday: :icon_blahblah: :icon_help:

Quote from: ainsley on February 02, 2017, 01:53:29 PM

I recommend a tall glass of apathy with a pink umbrella in it.  :icon_archery: :icon_birthday: :icon_blahblah: :icon_help:

I may try to order that at the next girl's brunch :) Btw, i judge that i love the name Ainsley

Ha!  Awesome.  It is a lady's drink, to be sure. ;)
And thank you for the compliment!!

In the early days of my de-transition, after coming out to a gay male friend, he told me had been noticing a person at his local grocery store, and he was convinced she was a trans girl. He was pretty excited to have 'spotted' her, and he asked me if he should approach her and let her know she was looking good. I blurted out "Gawd nooo, just leave her be". He was like, "Why? She should know that people are supportive, right?". Again, I was like "Gawd, nooo!!". He didn't understand that for many a trans person, NOT being noticed, especially early in transition, can be the absolute best outcome of any trip to the grocery store. I don't know if this girl was out and proud, or non-binary, or looking to live fully stealth, but I do know, that within our LGBT community, there exists side by side, very different ideas about what support looks like and should look like. I told him, if it were me, and anybody, whether an openly gay guy, or not, had approached me and congratulated me for 'being trans', I would have been mortified at having been clocked, and upset to have been approached with this information, and I probably would never, ever shop there again. He didn't understand this. He couldn't conceive of why I would just want to be seen as a normal girl out doing my shopping, and nothing more. For some, gender-variance is not a condition to be highlighted or celebrated, it something to be rectified, and put away, and the sooner, the better..

Yes, sometimes even the most well-intended 'support' can be hurtful, that's why more education and deeper awareness are so important to any marginalized community. Discrimination isn't just about being told you are less, but also about being told that you should also feel yourself to be more. Gender-variance is not the same as having same-sex attractions, though the two concepts often intersect within us in some ways. I have drifted away from my gay friend, whom I had known since high school. He was unable to meet me halfway on the road to mutual understanding, and could not learn to frame the trans experience anywhere beyond his preconceptions from within the gay community. His gender was an absolute, and his hatred for straights was palpable, especially straight women, though he was also ungenerous to lesbian women.

Missy

Quote from: MissGendered on February 02, 2017, 02:14:01 PM
In the early days of my de-transition, after coming out to a gay male friend, he told me had been noticing a person at his local grocery store, and he was convinced she was a trans girl. He was pretty excited to have 'spotted' her, and he asked me if he should approach her and let her know she was looking good. I blurted out "Gawd nooo, just leave her be". He was like, "Why? She should know that people are supportive, right?". Again, I was like "Gawd, nooo!!". He didn't understand that for many a trans person, NOT being noticed, especially early in transition, can be the absolute best outcome of any trip to the grocery store. I don't know if this girl was out and proud, or non-binary, or looking to live fully stealth, but I do know, that within our LGBT community, there exists side by side, very different ideas about what support looks like and should look like. I told him, if it were me, and anybody, whether an openly gay guy, or not, had approached me and congratulated me for 'being trans', I would have been mortified at having been clocked, and upset to have been approached with this information, and I probably would never, ever shop there again. He didn't understand this. He couldn't conceive of why I would just want to be seen as a normal girl out doing my shopping, and nothing more. For some, gender-variance is not a condition to be highlighted or celebrated, it something to be rectified, and put away, and the sooner, the better..

Yes, sometimes even the most well-intended 'support' can be hurtful, that's why more education and deeper awareness are so important to any marginalized community. Discrimination isn't just about being told you are less, but also about being told that you should also feel yourself to be more. Gender-variance is not the same as having same-sex attractions, though the two concepts often intersect within us in some ways. I have drifted away from my gay friend, whom I had known since high school. He was unable to meet me halfway on the road to mutual understanding, and could not learn to frame the trans experience anywhere beyond his preconceptions from within the gay community. His gender was an absolute, and his hatred for straights was palpable, especially straight women, though he was also ungenerous to lesbian women.

Missy

:o Wow, I mean just wow. "...good safety tip, thanks Egon"(Ghost Busters). I had not even thought of that happening as a compliment. Good to file away so if/when it happens I don't go ballistic at myself.

Really though, thanks for sharing.

Warmly,

Joanna

Quote from: Mia on February 01, 2017, 11:52:22 AM
I've been ripped by gender-fluid trans people because I am binary. Since I aim to "go all the way," I am somehow abandoning trans people and I am an elitist. Quite frankly that line of thinking sickens me, I felt like a mob of people who are "proud to identify as trans," as they put it, set upon me to prove that I'm a terrible traitor for wanting to pass and disappear as a woman. They want to steal the community from me.

They also attacked my ability to obtain hormones and surgeries, without a shred of evidence as to how exactly I obtained my surgeries or my hormones. I will work and pay for whatever it takes for me to find my peace and happiness, for all I know these people are working part time jobs and driving cars they can't afford while they whine about what they can't have. That's not my style, it has never been.

Yeah... I haven't the stomach or mental capacity to deal with that amount of toxicity. I spent most of my youth 'gender neutral' and the only reason for that was I refused to fully commit to the male standing in front of me in the mirror since it wasn't right for me. I grew out of it, realizing, I wanted to be one and not the other and it was only ever the male that caused me discomfort. Maybe these children will outgrow their silliness too? Maybe they wont and they're just terrible human beings, yelling and screaming at whoever will hear them waving sticks around at the sky..

Quote from: Mia on February 01, 2017, 11:52:22 AM
On the one hand, I stand united with all trans people, and I always will because all of our experiences are similar. But to counter these people's bias, I wonder aloud who really travels the easier path - someone who doesn't worry about passing but endures endless discrimination, or someone who lives in fear and suffers through financial and physical agony along a very uncertain road to completion?

I think, if given the option, we'd all want to pass. Though, I'm sure some people love to play the martyr also..

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 02, 2017, 01:01:22 PM
Oh, I certainly hope the support group doesn't do that!

I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that they do, only that I am afraid that they will.  I am quite sure it is my insecurities not their actions preventing me from going.  Heck, my wife has not seen Paula yet and perhaps after that happens, who knows.

Quote from: Joanna50 on February 02, 2017, 09:45:47 AMLive your life, do what you can for others. If you can do more, do it.  If you can't give money, volunteer. If you don't have the time, find a way to contribute, that you can afford. If you are young and none of that is possible yet, write an IOU in your calendar for 3-10 years and see if you can do something then. I think most of us here have had a lifetime(whatever age you are it is still your lifetime) of shame, guilt and pain. Just because you are able to afford procedures, clothes, wigs, therapy... to alleviate it does not make it any less real.

Sorry. My sermon is done.  ^-^ I kinda feel strongly about that.

I would hesitate, though, to make this a matter of being moral. 

Because it really depends on where you're at when it comes to your healing process.  If you have to withdraw for your own health, then withdraw.  There's no time limit -- it might be a lifetime, for all any of us know.  You just don't know.  For all I knew, I wasn't ever coming back to the community.  I just couldn't risk possibly stirring up my dysphoria. 

Being able to help isn't a moral compunction; rather, it's an expression of power, and a rather beautiful expression at that.  It's okay to be powerful, and it's okay to be powerless. 

Quote from: RobynD on February 02, 2017, 12:26:35 PMI think where humans start to go wrong is the constant need to find a pecking order or "she is better than her" " I am better than her because...." This is sort of primal instinct that was at least somewhat based in the need to compete for limited resources", but its not a good one. There is a clear path to acts of discrimination from there. I think we sometimes do this subconsciously as you point out.

I try to confine the opinions i form about people to the mundane and useful (judging someone as dangerous for instance) . I try not to assign value or position on those opinions, because in the end. That is hubris of a blatant nature. Who am I to assign value to other people?

In my experience, the desire to judge -- and yes, I agree that it's really about pronouncing what's "right," primarily for hierarchical reasons -- comes from lacking a sense of inherent value.  Without a sense of inherent value, value can only be assigned through comparison, through establishing a pecking order. 

A nice meditation, I think, which I got from my book club actually, is to actively seek out what we like, so as to establish empathy.  And then, advanced course here, is to simply appreciate others for exactly what they bring to the table, whether we like it or not.  Because inherent value isn't rooted in likeability.  Inherent value is inherent, it inheres, and it's simply a matter of choice to actively recognize it or not. 

Sadly, we live in a culture that is generally antithetical to the notion of inherent value.

QuoteSo, my point is that we may experience Discrimination/Jealousy within our own community, but it may not be ill intended, but, rather, ill controlled instinctive behavior.  I recommend a tall glass of apathy with a pink umbrella in it.

A tall glass of apathy would be nice, but unfortunately our emotions precede conscious thought.  It takes work in advance (again, recognizing one's own inherent value) to nip those negative emotions before they're generated in the first place, and that work isn't exactly easy -- after all, we're now dealing with the subconscious, which generally means it doesn't respond to conscious probing or what we might call "the will," but rather to material demonstration and lived experience.  Which usually takes time to sink in. 

Quote from: PaulaLee on February 02, 2017, 05:32:06 PMI am sorry, I did not mean to imply that they do, only that I am afraid that they will.  I am quite sure it is my insecurities not their actions preventing me from going.

The vast majority of people at support groups are there get their own support, not to pass judgment on others.  Generally speaking, once people start passing regularly, they tend to stop going to support groups, because passing generally does a great deal to ameliorate dysphoria, and so support groups become largely unnecessary.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 02, 2017, 05:57:36 PM

Being able to help isn't a moral compunction; rather, it's an expression of power, and a rather beautiful expression at that.  It's okay to be powerful, and it's okay to be powerless.

Yes.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 02, 2017, 05:57:36 PM
Being able to help isn't a moral compunction; rather, it's an expression of power, and a rather beautiful expression at that.  It's okay to be powerful, and it's okay to be powerless.

Thank you, Sophia!

This is one of those moments when a truth inadvertently shines a light into an unintended corner.

I have this running issue with straight, very masculine men. I attract them easily enough, and can bed them without hesitation, but ultimately, they won't bond with me, no matter how well we get along..

I thought it was my height, or my past, or my same-sex attractions, as each have been cited, but more often, there is no reasonable explanation given, except an allusion to me being 'masculine' in some unnameable way...

And this it, this is the missing piece. Yes, they can almost accept me as being smarter, or more world wise, or more talented, or having bedded far more women than they have, but ultimately, what is undermining these relationships, I am now convinced, is my easy demonstration of personal power. What straight man, what very masculine, manly man, wants to be with a woman, even an especially feminine one, that is more powerful than he is, and in tangible ways? Duh..

Now I see the pattern, the light has come on in the refrigerator.

Thank you, so very much.

I thought it was me. It is not. It is them.

I need a very secure man, a very secure, manly man, one that welcomes a woman with her own power gladly, and is not threatened by it.

Sorry to derail the thread, but when epiphanies strike, it pays to stand up and listen. And I want you to know that you helped me, even without intending to do so.

I am so very glad I also returned to the community.

It has been a very productive visit!

Missy

Quote from: Cannabliss on January 31, 2017, 08:00:06 PM
Has anyone ever experienced that?

I'm the only transgender person I know. 

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:06:25 AM
Absolutely.  Amusingly enough, that means all my company in social environments outside the trans social support group (all not passing) are ciswomen. 

Passing transwomen with whom I have worked or have known in group therapy don't even acknowledge my existence.  Not really surprising, though.  I'm a risk.  When I get clocked, folks will also wonder about anyone I am with.  Passing transwomen don't want to lose privilege because of someone they are with.

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'


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I think I agree with you,I'm a 24 year old MTF and I agree totally with what you said,personally I feel it too myself,because I could not pass.

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:41:31 AM
In thinking about it, folks who have truly completed their transition probably should leave the trans community and just live their lives.  Wasn't that the original goal of transition, to just be a woman?

My goal wasn't to be a woman.  It was to be more myself.

And I've spent most of my life living as a man.  It's a huge part of my history and not one I'd be willing to walk away from, even if I could.

I'm transitioning because it makes me feel better.  I want to look in the mirror and not be grossed out or have to block the awareness that what I see is me.  I would like to relate to people, especially women, the way I see other women relate to one another.  I'd like to look "cute"; well, at least as "cute" as I can be with all that visible testosterone damage.

As long as I can have that (or some amount of it), I don't mind people knowing I'm trans.  Anybody who knows me as more than a random face is going to know it, anyway.  As long as they relate to me as me, and don't use my history as an excuse to invalidate the most precious parts of me, I'm okay with it.

I'll probably keep up with the people I've met in support groups, because they're people who share experiences I've had that cis people have not.  Just as war veterans like to meet with other war veterans because other veterans understand, so I like to spend time with other trans people (incl. NB and FTMs), because they understand.


As for the "more trans than thou" folks, life's too short.  I can't be bothered.  I'd rather spend my few remaining years (and my "remaining limbs" :) ) with people who do accept me.  Besides, I've been erased by far bigger bullies than they'll ever be, and I'm still here.

Quote from: Asche on February 04, 2017, 10:16:47 AMMy goal wasn't to be a woman.  It was to be more myself.

And I've spent most of my life living as a man.  It's a huge part of my history and not one I'd be willing to walk away from, even if I could.

I'm transitioning because it makes me feel better.  I want to look in the mirror and not be grossed out or have to block the awareness that what I see is me.  I would like to relate to people, especially women, the way I see other women relate to one another.  I'd like to look "cute"; well, at least as "cute" as I can be with all that visible testosterone damage.

As long as I can have that (or some amount of it), I don't mind people knowing I'm trans.

Well, yes, we transition to be ourselves and have that sense of self recognized socially, but that begs the question of who you are in the first place.  For me, being a woman is who I am.

If you're non-binary, on the other hand, then you practically must have an open narrative in the first place, because without it you'll just get gendered on the binary by default.  In that respect, being non-binary is kind of like being gay, people don't know unless you say, and even more so with being non-binary because it's so much more rare and there's practically no representation of it in popular media; at least the gay and lesbian population has had a lot of media exposure over the last two to three decades. 

But if you want to be able to relate to other women the way other women relate to each other, it'll be much more difficult with an open narrative.  Not impossible, because a few women can be very open-minded; they can see the invisible self.  Although if you're defining yourself as non-binary, that's an experience far outside the realm of what most people can grasp.  Instead, to have that kind of connection, you'll need...

QuoteI'll probably keep up with the people I've met in support groups, because they're people who share experiences I've had that cis people have not.  Just as war veterans like to meet with other war veterans because other veterans understand, so I like to spend time with other trans people (incl. NB and FTMs), because they understand.

...this. 

I kind of feel the same way, actually -- sometimes I needed to talk about this experience, and the only people I could really talk to about it were a few women who'd basically followed the same path.  They weren't from support group, though, as none of the people I knew from RL support groups went the way of a closed narrative. Instead, I found these friends online, in the midst of my transition, women who shared a similar philosophy and had the same goals... and eventually, the same sorts of experiences.  It's very different, I think, to live and love with a closed narrative versus an open one. 

Not to say that one way is inherently better than the other, just that the experiences themselves are very different... and as such, will be more or less suited to serving particular purposes and intentions. 

People are still people and are envious creatures. I'm jealous of how wonderful you look :) but what I would hope from our community is that we know better so we do better, as having felt 'less than' and bullied much of our lives that we rise above the superficiality and cruelty  that afflicts man and woman kind. Too much to ask??!!

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:06:25 AM
Absolutely.  Amusingly enough, that means all my company in social environments outside the trans social support group (all not passing) are ciswomen. 

Passing transwomen with whom I have worked or have known in group therapy don't even acknowledge my existence.  Not really surprising, though.  I'm a risk.  When I get clocked, folks will also wonder about anyone I am with.  Passing transwomen don't want to lose privilege because of someone they are with.

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'


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This post hurt my heart, Michelle. I want better for us. Maybe in a few generations we will see people as people. But all we can do is try to be an example of that today as an individual until the rest of society catches up with us.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 04, 2017, 10:44:42 AM
If you're non-binary, on the other hand, then you practically must have an open narrative in the first place, because without it you'll just get gendered on the binary by default.

Um, why is that a problem?

I don't care what they "gender" me as, as long as it's not male.  I don't have any inner sense of gender anyway.  I don't like being gendered male mainly because people make all kinds of assumptions and do all kinds of gender policing if they think I'm male.  (And I have horrible and painful associations with being gendered male.)

If they get to know me better, they'll hopefully develop a more nuanced picture of who I am, but that's what I'd hope for even if I were binary trans or even cis.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 04, 2017, 10:44:42 AM
But if you want to be able to relate to other women the way other women relate to each other, it'll be much more difficult with an open narrative.  Not impossible, because a few women can be very open-minded; they can see the invisible self.

I guess it depends upon which women.  So far, my experience has been that the women in the circles I'm in have been pretty open with me, but I'm not sure whether it's my gender presentation or just how I am.  I think I've always related to people more like the way women usually do, anyway.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 04, 2017, 10:44:42 AM
Although if you're defining yourself as non-binary, that's an experience far outside the realm of what most people can grasp.

I'm not defining myself as non-binary.  It's just a description of how I am.  Most people I know wouldn't know non-binary from a hole in the ground, and I'm okay with that (for me, at least.)

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 01, 2017, 10:06:25 AM

Passing transwomen with whom I have worked or have known in group therapy don't even acknowledge my existence.  Not really surprising, though.  I'm a risk.  When I get clocked, folks will also wonder about anyone I am with.  Passing transwomen don't want to lose privilege because of someone they are with.

Ciswomen don't think about 'failing to pass.'

This 'not acknowledging my existence' thing, it also happens to me. But not by MTFs...

I pass very easily, and not because I am XX intersex. My body was altered surgically and I was force fed T and human growth hormones until I looked indistinguishable from a tall, scary dude. My MTF transition was difficult, very difficult in some ways more than others, but I pass because I want to pass, and I did the work to make sure it became my daily experience.

But I am also generally ignored, sometimes even baited, by some in the community.

The non-binary individuals that I met in LGBT and support group settings did not ever acknowledge me in real life, and that also sometimes happens here. I can rest assured that if I post in an MTF thread, I will get a reply, usually by name. Not always so with non-binary or FTMs, not usually, unless it is to maybe take exception to my input. It seems that some react to me as if I were actually enforcing the binary just by existing.

So, that blade cuts both ways, and across broader categories than just the MTF subculture.

I'm just saying, we all make judgements, and act accordingly. And yes, we all have our reasons, whether reasonable, or not...

Missy

Quote from: Asche on February 04, 2017, 03:31:17 PMI don't care what they "gender" me as, as long as it's not male.  I don't have any inner sense of gender anyway.  I don't like being gendered male mainly because people make all kinds of assumptions and do all kinds of gender policing if they think I'm male.  (And I have horrible and painful associations with being gendered male.)

If they get to know me better, they'll hopefully develop a more nuanced picture of who I am, but that's what I'd hope for even if I were binary trans or even cis.

Most people I know wouldn't know non-binary from a hole in the ground, and I'm okay with that (for me, at least.)

I dunno, I think the vast majority cis people gender everyone else on the binary.  So if you're passing, you'll be gendered female.  If you're not, you'll be gendered as some kind of male, though the assumptions that usually follow with male gendering don't often apply when the person is question is also explicitly read as queer in some sense -- openly gay men do not get the same treatment as macho straight dudes. 

Even with passing, though, once the narrative is open the gendering that follows usually shifts.  You might still be gendered female... though often it will be provisionally, with an asterisk if you will... in other words, an "othering."  Which might be "not male" enough to satisfy you, and if so then more power to you! 

But having experienced both open and closed narratives, I can definitely say that at least for me the difference, though often subtle, was still palpable.  In the end, I find an open narrative leads to being "othered" often enough that's unacceptable to me, because implicit in that othering is a measure of male gendering.

And sometimes the opening of a narrative can yield full-scale opposite gendering.

Anyways, this just goes to show how different we all are.  For me, I need to be gendered according to my identity, so while I can intellectually grasp the assertion that it's possible to be okay with not being gendered (or ungendered) as such, it's something I really don't emotionally understand. 

QuoteI guess it depends upon which women.  So far, my experience has been that the women in the circles I'm in have been pretty open with me, but I'm not sure whether it's my gender presentation or just how I am.  I think I've always related to people more like the way women usually do, anyway.

Yeah, I found a greater degree of openness upon transition, when everyone knew my story... but I find a still greater degree of openness and ease in such conversations when my narrative privacy is in place. 

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 04, 2017, 06:38:59 PM
Yeah, I found a greater degree of openness upon transition, when everyone knew my story... but I find a still greater degree of openness and ease in such conversations when my narrative privacy is in place.

Whereas for me, I have a really hard time with the idea of hiding some part of myself.  (I could never be a spy.) The last 6 months before I came out at work were torture -- having to not tell anyone about what was such a big part of my life.  And there's a certain relief, now that I'm out at work, in knowing I don't have to act like I wasn't <deadname> six months ago.

It's not just about my gender.  As mentioned in other threads, I'm dealing with some really awful stuff from my childhood, but was trained that it was not okay to talk about the horrible experiences or the horrible feelings they burned into me.  Part of my journey to becoming a whole person has been to keep telling people about it, so that eventually I hope I will no longer feel that it's something I have to hide.  This is also me: someone who spent most of my childhood wanting to kill myself, still in a lot of pain from it, but trying hard to heal.

But that's just me.  Different strokes and all that.

 Miss Gendered said:
"I can rest assured that if I post in an MTF thread, I will get a reply, usually by name. Not always so with non-binary or FTMs, not usually, unless it is to maybe take exception to my input. It seems that some react to me as if I were actually enforcing the binary just by existing. "

Well said, my experience exactly in day to day life.

I'll never forget a support group meeting one night when a very well-passing MTF woman visited, I was the only person who spoke with her. I didn't get it back then, but now I realize no one else in the group identified as binary. I feel bad for her, she wanted support, community, and was met with cold bigotry from within.

MTFs definitely have an affinity for one another. I'm on a few different boards and I see it all around. It's not wrong, and it's not unfair but they do tend to ignore FTM compared to their own. FTM tend to hang out in the FTM topics and are just less chatty I guess. I don't think they're actively hostile to you, but I sure get hostility in some places for existing. Hell someone told me to enjoy being a Nazi a few months back on a trans board because to them being a male equates to being a Nazi. That's one hell of a shoulder chip.

What bothers me about the divide is that we ought to understand each other much better than cis people understand the experience of the genders. I know things and you know things about the experience, and they can be of use. But the general way people treat each other makes me question whether I'm right about that at all. Maybe I can't relate much or help, because maybe my eyes have always been limited by what I am and the assumption I know what a woman deals with is really coming from some caged animal's deranged perspective. I don't know. My faith in people and in what I believed in myself has taken a nose dive these last couple of years, for a few reasons but the depressing plight of the community is one. I see a community of very isolated individuals, trying hard to connect but separated by many barriers. If something as profound as realizing these personal struggles have so much in common can't really break them down, I begin to wonder if there is a point in seeking to. If everyone lives behind impassable walls.

Quote from: Cannabliss on January 31, 2017, 08:00:06 PM
Has anyone ever experienced that?

No so much regarding discrimination, but yes, I have experienced some interesting responses of jealousy from women.

Some female employees in restaurants or stores are blunt, rude and unkind to me, but once they hear my low voice, they make a big smile with relief and suddenly become very kind to me. After that, they treat me as a kind of celebrity. I have a lot of female friends and admirers.

barbie~~

Quote from: Asche on February 04, 2017, 08:09:02 PM
Whereas for me, I have a really hard time with the idea of hiding some part of myself.  (I could never be a spy.) The last 6 months before I came out at work were torture -- having to not tell anyone about what was such a big part of my life.  And there's a certain relief, now that I'm out at work, in knowing I don't have to act like I wasn't <deadname> six months ago.

It's not just about my gender.  As mentioned in other threads, I'm dealing with some really awful stuff from my childhood, but was trained that it was not okay to talk about the horrible experiences or the horrible feelings they burned into me.  Part of my journey to becoming a whole person has been to keep telling people about it, so that eventually I hope I will no longer feel that it's something I have to hide.  This is also me: someone who spent most of my childhood wanting to kill myself, still in a lot of pain from it, but trying hard to heal.

But that's just me.  Different strokes and all that.

Very well put.

Which is why it has to come back to who we are, the invisible internal self.  Like, for me, practicing non-disclosure doesn't feel like hiding at all, it's more like I'm practicing "active translation" if that makes sense.  What it really feels like is "letting go" of a former self that wasn't ever really me at all, so that "just me" can finally shine through in all my glory.

Having a closed narrative just feels right, and yields very different social experiences for me that I find beneficial to my well-being.  I feel like I'm part of the world, instead of separate from it.

I do have exceptions -- like, I haven't cut off my family, but then they gender me impeccably so that isn't an issue. My real exception, though, has been with other transitioners, depending on social context.  Because there's something about this experience that, I think, only other transitioners can really grok, and i something I have to talk about now and again, much more so the past three months or so since I started doing more "work" regarding my embodiment (losing weight, new hormone regimen, electrolysis touch-ups, etc) and have more work planned on the horizon. 

Quote from: Kylo on February 04, 2017, 09:26:12 PMI know things and you know things about the experience, and they can be of use. But the general way people treat each other makes me question whether I'm right about that at all. Maybe I can't relate much or help, because maybe my eyes have always been limited by what I am and the assumption I know what a woman deals with is really coming from some caged animal's deranged perspective. I don't know. My faith in people and in what I believed in myself has taken a nose dive these last couple of years, for a few reasons but the depressing plight of the community is one. I see a community of very isolated individuals, trying hard to connect but separated by many barriers.

This is interesting -- but actually, I think it kind of makes sense.

Back in the day, I knew this guy "Jack" and he was the only FTM that ever came to support group, and part of why he was there was simply to support the woman he was dating (they ended up in a long-term relationship); he was pretty much done with transition at that point, with his top surgery complete, a really thick beard, great voice, etc.  Anyways, we talked about the fantasy of being able to swap bodies, wouldn't that be great, whereas even with pretty successful transitions we still have to deal with lingering problems of embodiment.

But he pointed out that there'd still be issues with family, and we'd still have missed out on so many formative years, unless you could pull it off at the age of five or something, which no one would allow in the first place.  So there's still the matter of dealing with some kind of dysphoria.  And that really struck me -- even after all is said and done, there's still work to do, there's still lingering dysphoria and how do we go about keeping it from striking again?  We avoid things that trigger it, that's how. 

So I think a lot if not most of the fractures in the community stem from coping with dysphoria, and I wonder if sometimes it's difficult to talk "across the aisle" so to speak, regardless of what side you're on, because there's this fear that something will come up that reminds us of what we've lost out on, and the dysphoria that comes from that realization. 

Plus, people with dysphoria are people coping with a lot of pain, and people coping with a lot of pain are more likely to... lash out, not because of what someone else did, but just because lashing out is something we do when we're hurt, at least a lot of us do.  I've lashed out in my pain, and it wasn't pretty. 

So, anyways, I think it makes sense that there are so many isolated individuals with barriers up, barriers that tend to stay up, just because we've learned to protect ourselves in so many ways all our lives.

Quote from: Kylo on February 04, 2017, 09:26:12 PM
MTFs definitely have an affinity for one another. I'm on a few different boards and I see it all around. It's not wrong, and it's not unfair but they do tend to ignore FTM compared to their own. FTM tend to hang out in the FTM topics and are just less chatty I guess. I don't think they're actively hostile to you, but I sure get hostility in some places for existing. Hell someone told me to enjoy being a Nazi a few months back on a trans board because to them being a male equates to being a Nazi. That's one hell of a shoulder chip.

What bothers me about the divide is that we ought to understand each other much better than cis people understand the experience of the genders. I know things and you know things about the experience, and they can be of use. But the general way people treat each other makes me question whether I'm right about that at all. Maybe I can't relate much or help, because maybe my eyes have always been limited by what I am and the assumption I know what a woman deals with is really coming from some caged animal's deranged perspective. I don't know. My faith in people and in what I believed in myself has taken a nose dive these last couple of years, for a few reasons but the depressing plight of the community is one. I see a community of very isolated individuals, trying hard to connect but separated by many barriers. If something as profound as realizing these personal struggles have so much in common can't really break them down, I begin to wonder if there is a point in seeking to. If everyone lives behind impassable walls.

Hi Kylo,

When I first started my journey, I was hurting, very badly, and I too had a horrid way of seeing men. The chip on my shoulder was more of a boulder, really, and I blamed it on both what men did to me, and what I knew men were doing to their unsuspecting wives and girlfriends. But, I never really did know what men were, no matter how much I may have looked like one, even though I thought for certain that I did. But that changed over time, with a ton of therapy, and what seems like endless hours of introspection. I had to really put myself out there, and make myself both available and vulnerable, and yes, I got hurt, more than once, but I also saw through the pain I had been carrying, and realized I did not really understand them, no matter how much Jung, or Bly, or Joseph Campbell I read. They are an enigma to me, an irresistible enigma.

I have said it elsewhere, though I did not think it up myself, that hurt people, hurt people. Our wider community is comprised of many subgroups of people that have been through the social meat grinder. Deranged, caged animals, yes, even I felt that way, back when I was T driven, and disconnected to my true self, my true life, my true feelings, so that much, I think I can relate to. The fact that cis/straight people all have a shared narrative of biological and reproductive 'normalcy' allows them to relate to each other rather consistently, even over cultural divides. In the gender-variant community, we have no such commonalities, our narratives are set against each others'. You were born bio-female, but are male identifying, your journey contradicts that of a bio-male that identifies as female. I am very binary-wired, what I crave, non-binaries either reject, or cannot fathom. There are far many more poles of opposition pushing and pulling against each other within our ranks. Our umbrella, it covers a group of people with very divided, often contradictory goals. Not so with straight, cis peoples. Their umbrella covers all of them without much division in goals and direction. We have to work harder than they do, just to create an inclusive language, let alone a set of non-offensive terms we can all agree upon and use equally well. I think it is amazing that we are having such a conversation as this one, amongst such varied participants, across oceans, metaphorical, and real.

As in cis culture, relationships are built one conversation at a time, over time, with respect, and concern about the feelings, and perceptions of others. In our wider community, we walk minefields of loaded terms every time we attempt to reach out, and share, or wish to be heard. This makes it much harder for us to navigate to a safe place, where we have a history of shared, safe, inviting interactions. Take our first interaction, we were certainly not hearing each other the way either of us desired to be heard. Yet, you overheard something I was saying here, and made an effort, and now, we are having the actual beginnings of a real conversation. I would posit that even in the face of our differences, we can also overcome the distance between us, by doing exactly what we are both doing now. We are listening, and sharing, and building trust. Yes, it is harder for us in the gender-variant world, we are all over the map, in so many ways, but we are all still humans with hearts.

Thank you for reaching out. It means more to me than perhaps you realize.

;-) Missy

I semi-recently had a strange experience regarding possible 'alienation' within the community when I was at the courthouse trying to have my name and gender marker altered.
Long story short, there were four of us and the judge made us jump through some pretty ridiculous hoops to finalize the process. When it was all said and done, we were all funneled into a small room to wait while our documents were being prepared.

I'll be the first to say that, apart from posting on here occasionally, I have no real world experience with any other trans individuals. That being said, I was a little nervous and mildly intrigued by the prospect of casually chatting with them; there were two other FTMs and an MTF and all three of them had brought along two or three supporters.
I'm not saying this to brag by any stretch, but I 'pass' (urgh) very well and did pretty early on. Not a single person even bats an eye in my direction when I'm out and about.
I sort of tried to make my way over to chat with them (they'd already started to amalgamate) when I caught one of the FTMs in particular giving me a rough side-eye after looking me up and down. He put his back to me and the other two just sort of fell in line. I should note that none of them came together, so it isn't like I was being shut out of a group of friends. It was sort of one of those 'Yeaaaah, you don't belong' moments.
But I'll be damned if all the supports/cis people didn't chat me up like crazy. We were all joking, chatting about random topics and having a pretty good time. I continued to feel rough glances in my direction while this was going on.

Anyway, when all was said and done, everyone said goodbye to me... except for the other trans individuals, even -after- I wished them good luck. They simply continued to pretend I didn't exist.
I was a little baffled, to be honest. My mom and fiancée both commented to me after we left (without my prompting) that the other trans people were super cliquey and rude.
All of them were perfect strangers (I caught some of their conversations; they were not 'friends' type chats) prior to the court date. So what was the issue?
Again, without my prompting, both of them flat out stated that none of them 'passed at all' and cited their possible reason as jealousy.

It was a weird feeling, actually, to be wordlessly and unanimously shut out from a group of strangers that didn't even know one another.

Stone,

Thank you for sharing, your experience echos many of my own...

What an amazing thread this has become. Thank you to everybody that has participated, I am indebted to each one of you for opening my eyes to different perspectives, as well as for validating my own experiences.

Nice!

Missy

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 02, 2017, 05:57:36 PM
I would hesitate, though, to make this a matter of being moral. 

Because it really depends on where you're at when it comes to your healing process.  If you have to withdraw for your own health, then withdraw.  There's no time limit -- it might be a lifetime, for all any of us know.  You just don't know.  For all I knew, I wasn't ever coming back to the community.  I just couldn't risk possibly stirring up my dysphoria. 

Being able to help isn't a moral compunction; rather, it's an expression of power, and a rather beautiful expression at that.  It's okay to be powerful, and it's okay to be powerless.

Sorry to bring this back after a few days.I tried to let this go but it kept nagging me.

Sophie Sage, I'm not looking to start an argument. I just felt my comments were taken a little out of context. I apologize if it seems that I was making sweeping proclamations and judgements. I try not to tell anyone what to do on this site. I think we have all had many telling us what to do to be "right"

I probably do come across as  a supporter of being moral. However, in this case, it was about the guilt some of us feel toward those who are not in as fortunate a situation as we are. My history both including my glacial realization of being trans and my Presbyterian upbringing has left me struggling with guilt for years. The point was not you have to do good. The point was more if you recognize it and can do something, do it. Of course if there is something stopping you that is equally valid, to refrain. For some it might just push it under to fester for a while. Hence my IOU suggestion.

I'm babbling now. The points I wanted to specify:

1)  being trans puts most of us into a guilty, shameful... state. Don't let yourself be trapped there again. If you recognize that, do something. Of course if it is just someone else who is jealous or discriminating, try to see why they are saying it and move forward(with action or without--up to the individual).

2) how well off one is financially, dna wise, passabillity(is that even a word), place along their journey...does not make their pain any less valid.

As I said sorry for taking the conversation back a few days. Work sucks me in now and then. Oh and thank you for the idea of helping as power. It was stance I had not thought of before. Like I said earlier, take or leave any suggestions I give.

Make it work for you.

Sincerely,

Joanna

Quote from: Joanna50 on February 06, 2017, 03:30:23 AMI'm not looking to start an argument. I just felt my comments were taken a little out of context. I apologize if it seems that I was making sweeping proclamations and judgements. I try not to tell anyone what to do on this site. I think we have all had many telling us what to do to be "right"

Oh, I'm the one who should apologize; I didn't mean to imply that you were presenting a straightforward moral argument that I opposed. Sorry. Because yes, I agree that if we're in a position to help, we should, but I just wanted to clarify that not being able to help wasn't a matter of failing morals.

And I'm probably guilty of reading a bit too much into what you previously wrote.  It just reminded me of a conversation from many years ago, someone arguing that being an out and proud activist was a moral position, with the implication that a life of non-disclosure was not a moral position.  As if keeping a closed narrative was a matter of being purely selfish, instead of recognizing it as a therapeutic strategy. 

Yours,
Sophie

Cool, thanks. Glad to know we're good.

I am by no means, an open narrative. One could be a little more closed but not by much.

You brought up really good points. I just felt I needed to clarify(might not have even needed it).

Warmly,

Joanna

Quote from: Floof on February 01, 2017, 01:28:20 AM
And I DO feel bad about it, ashamed! I no longer really mention it when people within my country and community ask me about it, because I hate the sort of anger I've gotten in return.. It doesn't help that I try to explain how much I appreciate the incredibly fortunate situation I'm in.

I started a very successful business at 14 years old, and I'm 19 now. I have parents who have worked incredibly hard for what they have from being dirt poor growing up, without any help but themselves. So I completely understand when you say that you feel sort of ashamed to have the funds that are available whenever you need them. Especially when it's a situation that you just can't help (you can't control your job pay). All you can do is be incredibly thankful for what you have and live your life. I'm a relatively basic person that wears pretty cheap clothes.. but it seems that people will hate on you in the community when you have no financial struggle to get the cosmetic work you want, but god forbid you buy that new Chanel bag or those $1,400 pair of diamond earrings and you will only hear positive stuff when it comes to material items.. at least in my experience. It's a huge downer, and makes you feel ashamed indeed because all you did was work hard for your money.

:( :embarrassed:

Quote from: jjordann on February 07, 2017, 12:09:53 AM
I started a very successful business at 14 years old, and I'm 19 now. I have parents who have worked incredibly hard for what they have from being dirt poor growing up, without any help but themselves. So I completely understand when you say that you feel sort of ashamed to have the funds that are available whenever you need them. Especially when it's a situation that you just can't help (you can't control your job pay). All you can do is be incredibly thankful for what you have and live your life. I'm a relatively basic person that wears pretty cheap clothes.. but it seems that people will hate on you in the community when you have no financial struggle to get the cosmetic work you want, but god forbid you buy that new Chanel bag or those $1,400 pair of diamond earrings and you will only hear positive stuff when it comes to material items.. at least in my experience. It's a huge downer, and makes you feel ashamed indeed because all you did was work hard for your money.

:( :embarrassed:

Yea there is a bit of that; luxury goods are fine for some reason but.. The fact that I don't look at the prices when I decide which cucumber to get at the store really winds people up. I mean the differences in price are relatively small so I want to be able to reduce my carbon footprint and support my local farmers by buying their vegetables, even though they are a bit more expensive.. And this day-to-day carelessness with my money I think is what gets to people the most.. I don't have to penny pinch to save up for my operations.

And well done on running a business at 14! Very impressive, you must have a lot of drive.

Non-binary people face their own marginalizations in the trans community.

I've noticed that a lot of binary trans people, especially older trans women, have a lot of trouble with non-binary trans people.  Usually, they try to be polite, but you get the definite feeling they can't really believe that non-binary exists.  I've run into that here at Susan's.  And when they do try to figure it out, they still try to put it in a box, that non-binary "is" X or Y, and when an NB comes along that doesn't fit into the NB box they've constructed, they insist "that isn't what NB is."  It's quite wearing to deal with, and I've gotten in the habit of simply not talking about my NB-ness here most of the time.  There used to be a thriving NB community at Susan's, but after a blow-up which made many feel that NBs were not all that welcome, most of them left.

There are also the so-called LGBT centers that have stuff set up for trans-masculine and for trans-feminine, but have no place for non-binary.  (NYC "Gay center", I'm looking at you.)  The "everyone in a box" mentality excludes people who don't feel comfortable in any of them.

I'm one of the oldsters, the soon-to-fade-away generation, but I think there's also an age aspect.  Most NBs are fairly young (teens or twenties, maybe 30s), and there's the habit older people have of not taking younger people seriously.  I often get the vibe from them that more established (=older) people have kind of patted them on the head and implied that when they're older they'll give up this foolishness.

Quote from: big kim on February 01, 2017, 02:30:48 AM
Yes it's there, I'm not "really transexual" for liking punk rock, riding a Harley, interested in muscle cars, not wearing make up etc. Doing a gradual transition caused me a lot of earache, I grew my hair out, did a big chunk of electrolysis & was on HRT for 22 months before transition.

I would define growing hair out, electrolysis and HRT as transition in and of itself. Transition doesn't necessarily mean surgery, though for some it does. For many people growing their hair out, electrolysis and HRT are their entire transition, and consider their transition complete at that time.

Quote from: Asche on February 07, 2017, 08:31:38 PM
Non-binary people face their own marginalizations in the trans community.

I've noticed that a lot of binary trans people, especially older trans women, have a lot of trouble with non-binary trans people.  Usually, they try to be polite, but you get the definite feeling they can't really believe that non-binary exists.  I've run into that here at Susan's.  And when they do try to figure it out, they still try to put it in a box, that non-binary "is" X or Y, and when an NB comes along that doesn't fit into the NB box they've constructed, they insist "that isn't what NB is."  It's quite wearing to deal with, and I've gotten in the habit of simply not talking about my NB-ness here most of the time.  There used to be a thriving NB community at Susan's, but after a blow-up which made many feel that NBs were not all that welcome, most of them left.

There are also the so-called LGBT centers that have stuff set up for trans-masculine and for trans-feminine, but have no place for non-binary.  (NYC "Gay center", I'm looking at you.)  The "everyone in a box" mentality excludes people who don't feel comfortable in any of them.

I'm one of the oldsters, the soon-to-fade-away generation, but I think there's also an age aspect.  Most NBs are fairly young (teens or twenties, maybe 30s), and there's the habit older people have of not taking younger people seriously.  I often get the vibe from them that more established (=older) people have kind of patted them on the head and implied that when they're older they'll give up this foolishness.

That's an intriguing point of view that I'd never really considered very much.
It's funny how being trans doesn't necessarily equate to being understanding, per se, to the plight of another when it doesn't (somewhat closely) match our own narrative. I freely admit to not always 'getting' NB individuals--I grasp everything up to three genders but once it goes beyond that, it all gets a little hazy for me--but my 'getting' it is irrelevant and ultimately meaningless. I'm not sure why people think they have to fully understand something for it to be legitimate.
It's funny how a group of people all standing on common ground end up splitting into multiple factions; organized religion suffers from the same phenomenon.
Try putting a deep south Baptist in the same room as a Catholic and watch the heads roll (honestly, play 'mix and match' with any of the other sects in that sentence). Both believe their way is the way and all others (as similar as they may be) are wrong.

Regardless, I'm sorry that you and other NB's have been and/or felt marginalized.

Would it seem then that our task in building a supportive community here and, in real life, is to openly acknowledge one another?  That we can clearly see you and welcome everyone to the table. There is no shortage of love but the challenge is to really feel empathy and compassion for one another. 

A good group facilitator ensures everyone gets a chance to speak or be recognized before the big mouths. like me, dominate the conversation.  This is not just fairness or a reference to Roberts Rules of Order but a way to build trust and gain confidence personally and as a community. 

Are we really threatened by another's success?  Can we appreciate the determination and dedication that it takes to get to any personal goal?  You worked hard to get here, you're wonderful!

Half the time I am scared to speak on topics for most times when I do I get a vacation. This site is my last resort to keep up with the t.g. community for I am permanently banned from many others because I'm not a liberal. I know discrimination real well. I know we need moderators too keep order and they do a real good job. Most times I get a vacation for speaking out and not attacking anyone, just speaking my thoughts on the matter. I'm sorry if I step on toes but shouldn't we have a independent voice also? I know I'm not popular and people find me nasty because I'm as southern as one can get,but being transgender had  been part of my life since I can remember but never seem to fit in with the transgender community,i've always been a outsider because I walk a different path then they do. I've never been chosen for anything most times people treat me like i don't exist and wish I would just go away. I never have intentionally meant to break any rules with  this group or treat people roughly but if a lot of you want i will leave and keep my distance from the t.g. community for he rest of my life and continue to be a outsider. In just  tired of the discrimination within My own community and being treated like I don't exist.

Cheryl Reeves

Cheryl,

I don't find you nasty. I'm southern. I'm conservative. I've made near 4000 posts here and never once had a vacation. If I can do it, so can you. You're welcome to post things that no one agrees with, but it can't be exclusionary or otherwise violate the TOS.

Hey Cheryl,

You and I have traded differing political opinions many times.  That does not make either one of us right, wrong or simply liberal.  We are way more than a single word label and we share this space and grace it with passion.  There is an owner to this site but I hope no one here is asking you to leave.

Please stay and continue to share your concerns and ideas with us.  There are people with privilege and our rides on this journey may vary but I doubt any of us have had it easy all the way.  It is important to hear from diverse perspectives and I think it helps us to avoid a reality bubble.

We see you, you most certainly exist and I wish you all the best.

Big hug, Cheryl! You're a member of our community/family here. You never have to leave. We appreciate your views on gender and managing to get through life and marriage successfully. And girl, I got you beat hands down when it comes to trouble and vacations from the site!  :laugh:

You have strong political views, this probably isn't the right place for those particular discussions considering how many  sites are dedicated to politics alone. Time and place for everything, you know?  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I am glad this community has people with different viewpoints than i do. It helps me to consider their position and helps me to not be stagnant in my own views on things. None of that should lead to discrimination. As long as everyone follows the TOS.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on February 08, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
Half the time I am scared to speak on topics for most times when I do I get a vacation. This site is my last resort to keep up with the t.g. community for I am permanently banned from many others because I'm not a liberal. I know discrimination real well. I know we need moderators too keep order and they do a real good job. Most times I get a vacation for speaking out and not attacking anyone, just speaking my thoughts on the matter. I'm sorry if I step on toes but shouldn't we have a independent voice also? I know I'm not popular and people find me nasty because I'm as southern as one can get,but being transgender had  been part of my life since I can remember but never seem to fit in with the transgender community,i've always been a outsider because I walk a different path then they do. I've never been chosen for anything most times people treat me like i don't exist and wish I would just go away. I never have intentionally meant to break any rules with  this group or treat people roughly but if a lot of you want i will leave and keep my distance from the t.g. community for he rest of my life and continue to be a outsider. In just  tired of the discrimination within My own community and being treated like I don't exist.

Cheryl Reeves

I speak only for myself here...I have enjoyed the interactions we have had. I for one do not wish you to go away. All communities benefit from diversity of opinion and ours is no exception. 

Liz 

Wow ty,i know I tend to get passionate when it comes to the USA and tend to step over the line without meaning to. I love the interactions and helping others with my story. I remember one  time me and my wife we going to a meeting and I was running late because of car problems so didnt have time to dress and they freaked out for they hadn't seen me in male mode before even wearing a mustache they gave me a pass because of car issues but told me not to show up like that again. Oh there was a time when me and my wife got pulled over by a county mounty and when I handed him my drivers license he freaked for he saw two ladies in the car and was wondering why one carried a male id we sat there for 30 mins while he was in his car telling his buddies you won't believe this one...lol my wife has been the one who I give credit for me accepting the way I am and we have had adventures.

A part of reasons for feeling discrimination/jealousy, I guess, is the user interface of this forum. It is a kind of commercial one, but not effective for interaction of users compared with Facebook or other web-based board programs. If possible, a brief comment or the Like/Unlike function may be added as in Facebook or other community sites. Just my thought of 2 cents.

barbie~~