Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The spouse and I had the talk about GRS this weekend.  We now have agreement that there is a finite length to our marriage.  Now we only have the end date to negotiate.

Oh Lisbeth, I'm so sorry.  I was soooooo hoping....

Beverly

Quote from: Lisbeth on November 12, 2007, 09:20:23 AM
The spouse and I had the talk about GRS this weekend.  We now have agreement that there is a finite length to our marriage.  Now we only have the end date to negotiate.

I'm so sorry, Lisbeth!

GRS really does seem to be the deal-breaker for many marriages :(

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on November 12, 2007, 09:46:43 AM
GRS really does seem to be the deal-breaker for many marriages :(

Indeed.  I already knew it was her final deal-breaker.

And we agreed that the children are our main priority in setting the end date.

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on November 12, 2007, 09:31:52 AM
Oh Lisbeth, I'm so sorry.  I was soooooo hoping....

Beverly

Some hopes die before their time.  And some outlive their usefulness.  I'm looking to the future, not the past.

I'm so sorry Lisbeth, I know most marriages end when transitioning starts. I'm very sorry for the both of you.

I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth in here. I may not understand but I'm still married. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes and I'm just looking for some understanding of why.

What I don't understand is if you are expressing yourself in the opposite gender that the doctor said you were when you were born, then why would a marriage break up because of the surgery. I would imagine, in my case, you would have been on hormones so there would be no sex, like in the Male/Female standard. You would have been presenting to the world and your family as female/male. Then why would you get divorced if you love this person. Now, if you were wanting to try the equipment out and wanted your life to be a woman/man, then I could understand. If you do love this person, then you could find a way to be intimate or not.

Again, I wanted to say something on this subject and I didn't want to step on anyones toes or make something out of nothing. Just looking at why this happens.
Sheila

I'm gobsmaked and amazed how many people who are TS are still married or even married in the first place. It's still an alien area to me........but best wishes to you Lisbeth whatever the outcome..

Quote from: Sheila on November 12, 2007, 10:19:14 AM
Then why would you get divorced if you love this person. Now, if you were wanting to try the equipment out and wanted your life to be a woman/man, then I could understand. If you do love this person, then you could find a way to be intimate or not.

Speaking for my own wife, she wants the dynamic of a male/female relationship. And frankly, so do I. Yes, we love one another. And we'll always be wonderful friends. But we're not "spouses," and as she'll tell you, we never were. We tried to find a way to be intimate for almost 20 years, and it just never worked. And that's WITH contrasting genitals.

Now, living together as very good (platonic) girlfriends for the rest of our lives isn't the worst thing in the world, I'll agree. BUT, both of us can't help but wonder if that's fair. We're getting older, and I don't know if EITHER of us can live with never experiencing a relationship the way we were both meant to.

So I don't think divorces necessarily mean the wife doesn't love her partner anymore. It's just that emotional needs are complex, and sometimes even love isn't enough to fulfill one's needs for intimacy and relations.

~Kate~

Thank you Kate.
Sheila

 :-\

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 10:26:30 AM
I'm gobsmaked and amazed how many people who are TS are still married or even married in the first place. It's still an alien area to me........but best wishes to you Lisbeth whatever the outcome..

I think the reason is, Kim, is that some of us fight against our feelings when we reach adulthood and try to prove to ourselves and others that we can be 'real men', thinking that marriage will 'cure' us of wanting to be female. In other words we go into denial, which can continue for many years as we try to function as 'normal' males. That is not to say that the love we have for our wives and partners was never real, that would just not be true. For the same reasons some of us take up stereotypically male occupations which few women would be physically able to do. Then when our true nature comes to the surface everyone is shocked and dismayed because they think we've been conning them all those years. That's when marriages fall apart and friends and family head for the exit.

Lisbeth, I am so sorry for you.

Louise

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 10:26:30 AM
I'm gobsmaked and amazed how many people who are TS are still married or even married in the first place. It's still an alien area to me........but best wishes to you Lisbeth whatever the outcome..

I would second that, I'd also have this issue out in therapy.  I can only speak from my perspective of not having been married.  The short answer, at least it was 10 years ago, is that it always blew my mind when married TSs would be absolutely shocked when their spouse reacted this way.  Naieve little old me would think, "Duh!  Shes not a lesbian!"

I don't think its that simple anymore, as other people have pointed to marriage is a complex relationship on a number of different levels.  I think the issues can be worked out and it may be that seperation and divorce is the only answer.

You can still be friends, but one your transition is permanent (yeah that's rather simplistic, but that's how most non-TG people see it), you're not ever going to be the same person she married.  People get divorced for that reason all the time.

So sorry Lisabeth to hear your news. Luckily I am in same boat as Sheila except I haven't had GRS and probably won't due to finances. Oh we don't have money issues, but with 3 kids and one more due for Christmas time there are priorities to look at. I am fully transitioned otherwise though and we are blissfull together. She finds me more the person she fell in love with, the one that started fading away the more I pushed my reality deep inside to hide it. Now that I am not feeling weird showing my feelings and emotions and treating her the way she loves to be treated we are again stronger than when I was trying to be a guy. I think our situations are the same idea as military life. some women can handle it and some can't. Some try and crash and burn which is a shame. And as far as intimacy goes there are ways without intercourse. I also feel another fear some women may have (not that I am a professional here mind you) is that as we embrace our feminne selves our orientation will change too. We all know that one has nothing to do with the other but the fear does root itself into our spouses. I know my wife's first concern she voiced was just that. Once I assured her I am lesbian and find the male anatomy revolting she was content. Good luck as you journey forward Lisabeth,
                Kim   :angel:

Sorry to hear the news Lisbeth. I hope things go reasonably well for you during this process!

zythyra

Quote from: Kim on November 12, 2007, 11:43:17 AM
I also feel another fear some women may have (not that I am a professional here mind you) is that as we embrace our feminne selves our orientation will change too. We all know that one has nothing to do with the other but the fear does root itself into our spouses.

Again, I think it exists on a number of different levels.  Lots of MtF start out as lesbians only to find out as their bodies, emotions, etc change so does who they're attracted to.  Its only fair that wives at least fear that outcome.

Its more then just a physical issue though.  Its not just our anatomy that our significant others are attracted to.  Years of hiding, etc may have created the personality traits that attracted them to us, just as transitioning strips all that away.  Changing who we are, physically, emotionally, etc changes the relationship.

Its more then physical, its more then sex.

Quote from: Sheila on November 12, 2007, 10:19:14 AM
What I don't understand is if you are expressing yourself in the opposite gender that the doctor said you were when you were born, then why would a marriage break up because of the surgery. I would imagine, in my case, you would have been on hormones so there would be no sex, like in the Male/Female standard. You would have been presenting to the world and your family as female/male. Then why would you get divorced if you love this person. Now, if you were wanting to try the equipment out and wanted your life to be a woman/man, then I could understand. If you do love this person, then you could find a way to be intimate or not.

The answer is really quite simple.  She does not want to be a lesbian.  I have known this quite painfully for years now.  To turn your question around, why would I want to remain married to someone who does not want to remain married to me?  Please, do not anyone feel sorry for me.  I came out to her ten years ago, went full-time almost six years ago, have been on HRT for 2 1/2 years.  There aren't any surprises in this happening now.  We have been drifting apart for all that time.  It will be a relief to finally have closure on it, so I can get on with the rest of my life.

As for my sexual orientation, I'm bi and always have been.  I don't care what kind of parts anyone I love has.

Quote from: Lisbeth on November 12, 2007, 12:14:15 PM
Please, do not anyone feel sorry for me.  I came out to her ten years ago, went full-time almost six years ago, have been on HRT for 2 1/2 years.  There aren't any surprises in this happening now. 

I understand hon.  But I always had a little hope that maybe she would become as understanding as my "D".  We both know someone who's wife was always saying "If you (insert next step in transition) I'm leaving" and they are still together.  Her wife even accompanied her to Montreal if you remember.  So I'll still hold out hope even if it's hopeless.

Anyway, you know where I am and you've got my number if you ever need a shoulder or even just someone to chat with.

Hugs,
Beverly

Quote from: louise000 on November 12, 2007, 11:06:06 AM
I think the reason is, Kim, is that some of us fight against our feelings when we reach adulthood and try to prove to ourselves and others that we can be 'real men', thinking that marriage will 'cure' us of wanting to be female. In other words we go into denial, which can continue for many years as we try to function as 'normal' males. That is not to say that the love we have for our wives and partners was never real, that would just not be true. For the same reasons some of us take up stereotypically male occupations which few women would be physically able to do. Then when our true nature comes to the surface everyone is shocked and dismayed because they think we've been conning them all those years. That's when marriages fall apart and friends and family head for the exit.

Lisbeth, I am so sorry for you.

Louise

Seriously why get married? with the intention that later you will transition and hurt the person you marry? I didn't get married on the basis that I knew I was transsexual and I didn't want to dress or look like a man or walk down the isle as a man....

Some women may feel hurt and decieved that the 'man' they married is not really a man at all and they have been decieved for many years. To me that's not honest and I can't see why people don't come 'out' at the start, before they get married.....it would save a lot of heartache..

I do have a lot of sympathy for those in this situation but it is to a certain extent self created. Those women who stick by their husbands who later decide to transition are extreamely tolerent and understanding and they too may face the same ridiclule and prejiduces...

Am I wrong to stick to my beliefs and have enough repect not to drag someone through that awful situation. I don't believe in the inforced conditioning.... 'I tried to conform'' arguement or the age factor as I grew up in the 70's and 80's.....I know I'm in the minority..

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 01:03:41 PM
Seriously why get married? with the intention that later you will transition and hurt the person you marry?

I didn't get married on the basis that I knew I was transsexual and I didn't want to dress or look like a man or walk down the isle as a man....

Am I wrong to stick to my beliefs and have enough repect not to drag someone through that awful situation...

I don't believe in the inforced conditioning.... 'I tried to conform'' arguement or the age factor...

I resent the implications in all this, painting a picture of all married TSs as selfish, uncaring, male-life-loving cruel people. You've made it *abundantly* clear in many other marriage threads as well that you don't accept or believe the many explanations you've been given. I don't know what more to offer you.

~Kate~

QuoteSeriously why get married? with the intention that later you will transition and hurt the person you marry? I didn't get married on the basis that I knew I was transsexual and I didn't want to dress or look like a man or walk down the isle as a man

I can't speak for others but myself here. Due to a same sex person rape ( as I have mentioned through other threads) my mind worked overtime (subconciously) to supress my ISism down to the point I didn't really know it existed, even controlling my estrogen - ah the mind is a mystery and weird thingy isn't it? So when I married I honestly didn't deceive my wife, at least not intentionally. It was only over the years of our marriage that I knew something was wrong. The more my mind supressed my true self so to did it supress some of my charecteristics, which caused great frustrations in me-knowing I am changing but not knowing why or how to stop it. I also knew I was trying to be like other guys around me but didn't know why or how to stop it. But once my mind couldn't go any further in this contoll and I realized who I was, all the characteristics that are natural to me and my wife adored when we dated came flowing back quickly and the person she really married was alive again to stay. And my estrogen did what it was always suppose to. Yes, I know my story is different from most but all I know is that all is much better in our marriage and happiness is abound for us. I guess I would make a good science experiment someday but they have to catch me first!!lol
                                                                                  Kim  :angel:

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 01:03:41 PM
Am I wrong to stick to my beliefs and have enough repect not to drag someone through that awful situation. I don't believe in the inforced conditioning.... 'I tried to conform'' arguement or the age factor as I grew up in the 70's and 80's.....I know I'm in the minority..

I think its a weak argument, at best, that married MtFs did it only to prove their manhood.  Love, and Marriage, is a complex emotion.  It's just not as simple as you might believe it to be.  Neither are the reasons some marriages fail and some dont post disclosure and transition.

If all of this wasn't complicated by conflicting emotions, social values, etc, none of us would be here trying to work out our issues.

Quote from: Kim on November 12, 2007, 01:47:17 PM
I can't speak for others but myself here. Due to a same sex person rape ( as I have mentioned through other threads) my mind worked overtime (subconciously) to supress my ISism down to the point I didn't really know it existed, even controlling my estrogen - ah the mind is a mystery and weird thingy isn't it? So when I married I honestly didn't deceive my wife, at least not intentionally. It was only over the years of our marriage that I knew something was wrong. The more my mind supressed my true self so to did it supress some of my charecteristics, which caused great frustrations in me-knowing I am changing but not knowing why or how to stop it. I also knew I was trying to be like other guys around me but didn't know why or how to stop it. But once my mind couldn't go any further in this contoll and I realized who I was, all the characteristics that are natural to me and my wife adored when we dated came flowing back quickly and the person she really married was alive again to stay. And my estrogen did what it was always suppose to. Yes, I know my story is different from most but all I know is that all is much better in our marriage and happiness is abound for us. I guess I would make a good science experiment someday but they have to catch me first!!lol
                                                                                  Kim  :angel:

You seem to put a lot of enphasis on estrogen......which I don't understand why? I was also raped as well when I was 17......but I managed to fight the man off before it got too graphic..

I'm really sorry about your situation, lisbeth. I can't imagine how hard it is.


Berleigh: Well.. I *did* try to conform to parental and social norms. Which is probably why I'm gynesexual(not a fan of the lesbian term for us). I went into my own relationship pushing away my gender issues in hopes that they'd go away. I also went into it *thinking* there was nothing that could be done about it anyways. Now, a year later, I've dropped the bomb on my girlfriend. It could have been another 2, which is when we were planning on getting married. Or another 10, when we would have children.

We're both victims here. We both love and are heavily attracted to eachother right now. She's beautiful, a hell of a lot of fun, funny, intelligent, and the sex is amazing. I'm also a very good partner (though poor at the moment) for her. We just compliment eachother in so many ways. The gender roles have always been mixed in our relationship; she hates foreplay and I love it, she spoons me, she's aggressive and I'm passive, ect. But now she's not sure what she is (lesbian or not) and keeps hinting that she loves my male bits (yet, plays with my breasts..). I'm about to start HRT soon and I'm scared to death to lose her, but I'm also scared to death to lose my mind if I don't do HRT.

So yeah.. it's not fair to anyone in a relationship where one is coming to terms with being transgendered. It's hard. Not everyone has had the experience in life leading up to a) knowing you're trans and want to transition and/or b) not being scared to death of other people knowing.

QuoteYou seem to put a lot of enphasis on estrogen......which I don't understand why? I was also raped as well when I was 17......but I managed to fight the man off before it got too graphic..

First off I only mentioned it twice. I was only pointing out how far my mind went in the supression and secondly to show how things recovered after it let go. I'm glad you escaped your rape. I used to be a cheap drunk so between that and a rough voyage over to my uncles I passed out while waiting for him to return home. When I awoke I was cuffed to the damn bed so escape was not an option. I was tortured and raped for over 3 hours. Enough now to explain my mind doing weird circus tricks or no?? One must read the whole post before replying as I never linked my rape and my estrogen together, just why my mind flipped my life into high flips and down slopes like a rollercoaster. Trust me, anyone who is not bounded will instinctly have their fight or flight mechinism kick in and do everything to survive-estrogen or not.

I know I'm on my own here and most transsexuals? on the forum seem to be married or used to be married. I do sometimes feel as though I've come from a totally different planet. I do disagree with folk a lot of the time but there are the occasional few people like me who stick to the road they were on right from the start...

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 02:11:00 PM
there are the occasional few people like me who stick to the road they were on right from the start...

Getting married doesn't mean someone didn't "stick to the road." It may not have been YOUR road, but it was ours. We each walk our own path to get where we need to be.

~Kate~

All we can hope is that your relationship morphs into something that is wonderful for all of you. Just don't let the seperation be the end, just a new beginning.

Quote from: Kate on November 12, 2007, 02:26:09 PM

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 02:11:00 PM
there are the occasional few people like me who stick to the road they were on right from the start...

Getting married doesn't mean someone didn't "stick to the road." It may not have been YOUR road, but it was ours. We each walk our own path to get where we need to be.

~Kate~

Yes, but during that process people get hurt and feel mislead and betrayed.....
Kate, you must not put me down because I did not want to experience that lifestyle.
There is no right or wrong solution in life but I hope things work out for all who are in a married sinario...

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 03:10:42 PM
Yes, but during that process people get hurt and feel mislead and betrayed.....

Whether we transition at 8 or 80, the same is true not only for us, but for our families as well.  No matter when or how its done this is a painful process and really requires nearly everyone in our lives to "transition" on some level.

And to discredit someone's marriage as simply hiding from the truth is hurtful to both parties.

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on November 12, 2007, 12:55:38 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on November 12, 2007, 12:14:15 PM
Please, do not anyone feel sorry for me.  I came out to her ten years ago, went full-time almost six years ago, have been on HRT for 2 1/2 years.  There aren't any surprises in this happening now. 

I understand hon.  But I always had a little hope that maybe she would become as understanding as my "D".  We both know someone who's wife was always saying "If you (insert next step in transition) I'm leaving" and they are still together.  Her wife even accompanied her to Montreal if you remember.  So I'll still hold out hope even if it's hopeless.

Anyway, you know where I am and you've got my number if you ever need a shoulder or even just someone to chat with.

Hugs,
Beverly

Indeed.  We both know that story well.  But that was their story.  This is mine.  I know you are there for me.  Give my best to Dee.

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 01:03:41 PM
Seriously why get married? with the intention that later you will transition and hurt the person you marry?

You seriously presume too much in your statement.  I will not bother to elaborate.

Quote from: Kate on November 12, 2007, 01:37:26 PM
I resent the implications in all this, painting a picture of all married TSs as selfish, uncaring, male-life-loving cruel people. You've made it *abundantly* clear in many other marriage threads as well that you don't accept or believe the many explanations you've been given. I don't know what more to offer you.

~Kate~

In particular the willingness to attack a person when they are at a low point in their life.

Quote from: Susan on November 12, 2007, 02:57:00 PM
All we can hope is that your relationship morphs into something that is wonderful for all of you. Just don't let the seperation be the end, just a new beginning.

I think it will.  We were best friends long before we became lovers and spouses and parents.  We seem to be ending as friends again.  Perhaps best girlfriends who share a long common history.

Quote from: Berliegh on November 12, 2007, 01:03:41 PM

Seriously why get married? with the intention that later you will transition and hurt the person you marry? I didn't get married on the basis that I knew I was transsexual and I didn't want to dress or look like a man or walk down the isle as a man....

Some women may feel hurt and decieved that the 'man' they married is not really a man at all and they have been decieved for many years. To me that's not honest and I can't see why people don't come 'out' at the start, before they get married.....it would save a lot of heartache..

I do have a lot of sympathy for those in this situation but it is to a certain extent self created. Those women who stick by their husbands who later decide to transition are extreamely tolerent and understanding and they too may face the same ridiclule and prejiduces...

Am I wrong to stick to my beliefs and have enough repect not to drag someone through that awful situation. I don't believe in the inforced conditioning.... 'I tried to conform'' arguement or the age factor as I grew up in the 70's and 80's.....I know I'm in the minority..

Yes, you are right, it's not honest. And I admire you for being true to yourself.
Louise

Well, I'm glad to hear your assessment of my honesty, and I think I'll just go away now and leave you to your self-righteousness.  I have enough pain in my life without letting people rub salt into my wounds.

Quote from: Lisbeth on November 13, 2007, 10:10:36 AM
Well, I'm glad to hear your assessment of my honesty, and I think I'll just go away now and leave you to your self-righteousness.  I have enough pain in my life without letting people rub salt into my wounds.

I think maybe Berleigh's comments may have been in answer to what I said about my own life and I responded by accepting what she was saying insofar as it relates to my own decisions in the past regarding marriage and that it had been "dishonest" for me to marry knowing that deep down I didn't want to be male. My reply to Berleigh's comments were in no way meant to offend you. In any case I think maybe we strayed way off topic and I apologise to you Lisbeth. Believe me I had no wish to add to your pain.
Louise

Ok, for what it's worth I agree we got strayed here too. I re-read the posts and feel we need to realize something. We all have our own opinions and have a right to voice as such, afterall we are humans. However, and this isn't the first time I seen this happen, we need to realize we are here to support and help each other. We don't need to force our opinions down each other's throats. We have enough problems being embattled and belittled by members of society that we don't need the pain of members of our community turning on each other. Let's just say we agree to disagree and leave it at that, please.
       Kim   :angel: