Susan's Place Transgender Resources

It has been requested of us to spearhead working on some updated definitions for the local susans.org wiki entries for Androgyne, Non-binary, etc terms that fall within our area of expertise. I know that talk of updating Wikipedia's entries was being discussed and action on it was being debated but for the time being, lets get this effort going for our own wiki and go through with it. What ever result we come to in a week or two, we'll go ahead and get submitted.

Some things to keep in mind when working on these definitions. You don't want to make the definition specific to you, thats not the point. The point is to present the concepts in a way that others may understand the terms, not as much focus on specific incarnations, though mention briefly of how some interpret these concepts would be appropriate.

Have at it!
If you need specific links:

Androgyne - First and foremost we'll need a seperate Androgyne term and not just a redirect from Androgyny
Androgyny - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny)
Non-binary - Needs to be created
Third-Gender - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Third_gender (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Third_gender)
Null-Gender - Needs to be created
And any other terms that need updates or be created

Marq and Mia
This is now now

Hi Marq and Mia

Ok, this thread appears to be the most recent. Well you two already know about who Cindy is, as for myself I am still only scouting the outer edges of androgyny.  I am post op but I still feel I need to learn more. I am happy and proud on my achieving becoming a woman. I am comfortable with that, but in the last couple of days I have spent a lot of time exploring what androgyny is, what I did learn is I did have many of the traits, I never knew what androgyny was before I came here, but it is enough to want to help in any way I can.

Cindy   

   I think we could appropriate the definition of genderqueer on wikipedia as a definition for androgyne.  They seem interchangeable to me.

   Just a thought.

Yes, androgyne could be based on the Wikipedia genderqueer entry with some minor modifications.

Here's a quick first draft for a couple of paragraphs of non-binary. Someone with a different view of gender please add to it.

Quote
Non-binary, as a gender term, is typically used in two ways. It can refer to the idea that there are more genders than the traditional male and female, and it can also be used to describe the gender of someone who does not identify with either of these two genders. The term non-binary encompasses several different views of the gender system.

As one example, it is possible to consider gender as a spectrum, rather like colours. In both cases there is a vast number of hues, but these are divided into different categories. It has been known since the 1960's that the colour terms of different languages form a hierarchy: if a language has only two colour terms, those correspond to 'black' and 'white; if three, 'black', 'white' and 'red', and so on.

The conceptualisation of gender can be seen similarly. If the spectrum is divided into two, these are 'male' and 'female'. This is not the only possibility, though, but a more fine-grained gender division is possible. For instance, a three-gender system could have 'male', 'female' and 'androgyne', or a five-gender system 'male', 'female', 'bigender', 'null-gender' and 'intergender'. In a sufficiently fine-grained division the genders would no longer have a matching physical sex.

  Nfr

I like that, nfr

Thanks; me too. ;)

Still, I'd like others to add one or two different non-binary views, to get a bit more balanced article. Also, it might be useful to add a sentence or two on how transexuality does not require a non-binary view.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 16, 2007, 01:25:25 PM
Thanks; me too. ;)

Still, I'd like others to add one or two different non-binary views, to get a bit more balanced article. Also, it might be useful to add a sentence or two on how transexuality does not require a non-binary view.

  Nfr

Opposed.  Transsexuality part is NPOV and off topic for this article. It might be ok for the TS article if you can find sources for the statement.

I just thought of noting that for some TG subtypes it is not necessary to challenge the gender binary; for androgynes it seems to be. But yes, I see how that is getting a bit beyond the scope of this article. Thanks for pointing it out.

  Nfr

We're going to start the first revision of the androgyne and non-binary entries when we return from Thanksgiving. Submit any additions in this topic by then.

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne)
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny)
Non-binary - New Article
Null gender - New Article


M&M

    I really stink at this.  I can't seem to fully grasp the concepts.  Not that there's anything wrong with them.  It is how my mind works.  I feel what you say, but I don't understand in a logical way.
    I'll help in any way I can, but I probably work better in a situation such as this if I have a task and responsibilities defined for me.

Maybe I'm useless.   :-\

Hi Rebis
Na! Never useless, some things just aren't our cup of tea, but it don't mean we can't do in part the task in question. We are only human. I at times have difficulty interpreting some written concepts especially when the documentation gets a little to windy, then my mind wanders. To have specifics assigned to one would greatly help. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the androgyne concept to really get involved.  just got on the boat.

Cindy

Ok Post a rough draft of what you might put for the Null Gender entry or the Non-binary entry.
You could also look at the Androgyne or Androgyny definition and mention anything you would change, add, or remove and post that here for others to discuss.

M&M

Quote from: Marq and Mia on November 20, 2007, 11:00:27 PM
Ok Post a rough draft of what you might put for the Null Gender entry or the Non-binary entry.
You could also look at the Androgyne or Androgyny definition and mention anything you would change, add, or remove and post that here for others to discuss.

M&M

Hey there M&M.

You now have access to edit the Wiki.  See the PM I sent you, it has your log-in credentials.

Steph

Anyone else wanting access to edit the site's wiki just get with Steph she will be happy to set you up...

Got a sort of null gender thing in my head just need the time off work to get it out, they're really whip cracking at the moment.
Also, what was the difference between androgyne and non-binary except petulance?

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 21, 2007, 04:01:39 AM
Also, what was the difference between androgyne and non-binary except petulance?

The way I see it, androgyne is one of the genders in a non-binary system.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 21, 2007, 06:39:00 AM

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 21, 2007, 04:01:39 AM
Also, what was the difference between androgyne and non-binary except petulance?

The way I see it, androgyne is one of the genders in a non-binary system.

  Nfr

Just my 2 cents but I believe that the term Androgyne refers to "The person" a person who is genderless, between genders, non-gendered etc.  If the word androgyne is to be considered one of the genders in a non-binary system, doesn't that contradict the definition?

Just wondering...

Steph

The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

Quote from: Alison on November 21, 2007, 04:26:36 PM
The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/n/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

Agreed.  Personally I don't care much if somebody wants to extend the term to include me* but I never use it to describe myself.  I'm not some mixture of man and woman, I am neither.  I think being n makes me more of a 'third gender' than a 50/50 mix of male/female.

*That'd make me petulant wouldn't it?

Quote from: Alison on November 21, 2007, 04:26:36 PM
The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

Valid point Alison but in the following:

Quote from: WikipediaAndrogyny is a term derived from the Greek words ανήρ (anér, meaning man) and γυνή (gyné, meaning woman)[1] that can refer to two concepts regarding the mixing of both male and female genders or having a lack of gender identification. The first is the mixing of masculine and feminine characteristics, be it the example of the loud fashion statements of David Bowie, Jeffree Star, Boy George, Brian Molko, Marilyn Manson, Annie Lennox, and Visual Kei musicians, or the balance of "anima" and "animus" in psychoanalytic theory. The second is in describing something that is neither masculine nor feminine, for example the Hijras of India who are often described as "neither man nor woman" or angels which are often portrayed as genderless.

One may also interpret Androgyne as neither nor male/female

I'm not trying to cause trouble in your forum, just tossing some ideas out there as the forum seems to be in a bit of a quandary.

Steph

Can us Nulls just go by the term 'Angel'?

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2007, 04:39:31 PM

Quote from: Alison on November 21, 2007, 04:26:36 PM
The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Any thoughts?

Valid point Alison but in the following:

Quote from: WikipediaAndrogyny is a term derived from the Greek words ανήρ (anér, meaning man) and γυνή (gyné, meaning woman)[1] that can refer to two concepts regarding the mixing of both male and female genders or having a lack of gender identification. The first is the mixing of masculine and feminine characteristics, be it the example of the loud fashion statements of David Bowie, Jeffree Star, Boy George, Brian Molko, Marilyn Manson, Annie Lennox, and Visual Kei musicians, or the balance of "anima" and "animus" in psychoanalytic theory. The second is in describing something that is neither masculine nor feminine, for example the Hijras of India who are often described as "neither man nor woman" or angels which are often portrayed as genderless.

One may also interpret Androgyne as neither nor male/female

I'm not trying to cause trouble in your forum, just tossing some ideas out there as the forum seems to be in a bit of a quandary.

Steph

I've seen that before Steph, but it almost seems like a contradiction in terms.

www.dictionary.com says:

Quote
an·dro·gyne      /ˈændrəˌdʒaɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-druh-jahyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   an androgynous plant.
2.   an androgynous person, as one who chooses unisex clothing.
3.   a female pseudohermaphrodite.
4.   a being of ambiguous sexual identity; one that combines major aspects of both the male and the female.

and

Quoteandrogyne

noun
one having both male and female sexual characteristics and organs; at birth an unambiguous assignment of male or female cannot be made [syn: hermaphrodite]

So saying "I'm a null androgyne" is an oxymoron.


*edit*

I just wanted to add-  I'm not subtracting anyones gender identity, I'm just curious as to the meaning of the word etc... So to anyone who does identify as 'null androgyne' I apologize for using you as an example to make my point.

you can't offend me, i'm made of tougher stuff.

i'd strictly call my self pre-gendered androgyne 'cos null or neutrois seems to imply a wish to eradicate external gender signs, where i feel my androgyne status is equal to that of a baby before self definition and initiation into a given gender begins. i am not overly bothered about having a male body because it's mine, and so not gendered in my eyes. Besides we've had so much fun together.

But to have my own wiki page to explain the model i have adopted just for myself seems a bit loopy. And to get offended that someone may want to define me loosely so they can get some handle on the subject, and so learn more, sounds even loopier.

I am dead happy to be simplified if it helps people understand me a little more. a start is a start,

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 21, 2007, 07:16:16 PM
you can't offend me, i'm made of tougher stuff.

i'd strictly call my self pre-gendered androgyne 'cos null or neutrois seems to imply a wish to eradicate external gender signs, where i feel my androgyne status is equal to that of a baby before self definition and initiation into a given gender begins. i am not overly bothered about having a male body because it's mine, and so not gendered in my eyes. Besides we've had so much fun together.

How do you explain this message that was found on your body -

QuoteDear Pica Pica,
                 Our time together has been great but I must insist that you keep your hands to yourself.

love,

your corporeal self  :)

I'd tell it that I had been keeping my hands to myself, and I hope it had enjoyed it. >:D

I'm not sure the root of 'androgyne' is really applicable as far as inclusion is concerned.  I would concentrate more on how androgyne people use it today.  I think most of us would include "both" and "neither/null", despite the original meaning...just like 'gay' and 'queer' no longer mean 'happy' and 'strange'.

I do like "pre-gendered", though.

Quote from: Rebis on November 21, 2007, 09:53:37 PM

How do you explain this message that was found on your body -

QuoteDear Pica Pica,
                 Our time together has been great but I must insist that you keep your hands to yourself.

love,

your corporeal self  :)

Quote from: Pica Pica on November 22, 2007, 01:53:18 AM
I'd tell it that I had been keeping my hands to myself, and I hope it had enjoyed it. >:D

umm... :-\

Quote from: Steph on November 21, 2007, 06:52:05 AM

Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 21, 2007, 06:39:00 AM
The way I see it, androgyne is one of the genders in a non-binary system.

Just my 2 cents but I believe that the term Androgyne refers to "The person" a person who is genderless, between genders, non-gendered etc.  If the word androgyne is to be considered one of the genders in a non-binary system, doesn't that contradict the definition?

It's more a matter of viewpoints.

If you want to describe androgyne in terms that originate in the gender-binary, 'a person who is genderless or between genders' is a pretty good description. If, on the other hand, you subscribe to a trinary gender system, androgyne is 'a member of the gender that is neither male nor female'. Neither of these views is ultimately better than the other; it's just a matter of how you look at the gender variation and divide it into concepts.

Quote from: Alison on November 21, 2007, 04:26:36 PM
The word "Androgyne" at it's roots means "male/female"  (Andro/Gyne)  So it doesn't seem to cover null/neutrois/non gendered just by the roots of the word.

Not etymologically, no. Still, etymology is not everything -- for example, woman goes back to Old English wífmon, which is a compound of wíf 'woman; wife' and mon 'man; human' and thus pretty similar to androgyne. What a word means nowadays is more a matter of how it is currently used than of how it came to be originally.

Whether androgyne covers the null-gendered in addition to the intergendered is really a matter of how many genders one wants to have. Personally, I'd understand androgyne in a three-way system to cover them, but all in all I think three genders are too few to be useful over here. Mostly I'd prefer a five-gender system that has male, female, null-gendered, bi-gendered and intergendered. Still, that's just the way I have been looking at genders lately.

  Nfr

The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   :'(

I just started to understand the meaning of 'pre-gendered'.  It just may apply to me better than Null, but I'm not sure because of my body issues.

yeah but I made pre-gendered up, it may not mean nuffink.

exactly.  If I have a made up word, no one can dispute it.  Except you because you made it up.  I need my own word that can't be tinkered with.

Quote from: Rebis on November 22, 2007, 02:40:53 PM
The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   :'(

True dat.

Quote from: Alison on November 22, 2007, 09:57:08 PM

Quote from: Rebis on November 22, 2007, 02:40:53 PM
The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   :'(

True dat.

Aren't you confusing empirical with empire? Imperial sounds more like the word you both are looking for. Like, one step up from royal. ;)

  Nfr

Quote from: Alison on November 22, 2007, 09:57:08 PM

Quote from: Rebis on November 22, 2007, 02:40:53 PM
The word 'androgyne' now gives me an empirical headache.   :'(

True dat.

I can relate. It seems that no matter which word I use, androgyne, genderqueer, non-op ts, m2f2?, non-binary gender variant, multi-gendered, neither, gender outlaw, queer, sissy, faerie, none of the above... none of these come close to truly describing what it feels like to be me.

Dr Z says take two aspirin, and/or a shot of whiskey, and we'll feel better in a century or two when it doesn't matter anymore what gender we are.  ;)

y2g

it's more of Linnaean headache.

Sexually innert?

Cindy

not going to do a viagra advert are you?

"Hee, hee, hee, hee." I'm afraid I'm out of the sausage business.
OK me go back and hide in my hole.

Cindy

I honestly do not know if it is imperical or empirical.  I thought IM, but the internet threw back EM

either way, it hurts.  :D 

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mwscomp.com%2Fmpfc%2Ftfgumby.gif&hash=bec3dc92048a190fb7d0023f17d7b75da7df3e3c)

My brain hurts!

  Nfr

that guy should run for president

It seems to us, from the dicussion, the way to proceed is pretty straightfoward. We'll start piecing it together at work on monday.

Obviously non-binary and androgyne are closely related in some of their definitions. We describe that they're in some case interchangable but also can be seen as being more literal and thus seperate and more specific. The point about Wiki's are they're interconnected entries and so linking between the two is almost a given.

Couple more days folks before M&M starts editing, any ideas, get them out.

M&M

I'm broke.

First Attempt Complete
Please review entries as you see fit and suggest further modification and growth.
Androgyny - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny)
Androgyne - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne)
Non-Binary - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Non-Binary (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Non-Binary)
Null Gender - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Null Gender (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Null%20Gender)

M&M

Quote from: Marq and Mia on November 28, 2007, 08:25:19 AM
First Attempt Complete
Please review entries as you see fit and suggest further modification and growth.
Androgyny - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyny)
Androgyne - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Androgyne)
Non-Binary - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Non-Binary (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Non-Binary)
Null Gender - https://www.susans.org/wiki/Null Gender (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Null%20Gender)

M&M

Hi,

   This line found in androgyny caused a ruckus at one point -

Quotealthough there is a politicized version known as genderqueer.

I think that not all genderqueers consider themselves political or the term 'genderqueer' to be necessarily a political one.

I've only just checked androgyny.  I'm going to check the others.

Thank you for the effort.

---

      I checked out the others and the only thing I can think of suggesting is that there should definitely be a reference in 'Null Gender' concerning the dysphoria that some Null gendered people feel.  Also that they sometimes feel the need to alter their appearance to remove certain gender markers such as breasts for a female and facial hair for a male.

     Just a thought.  I do consider this to be important, however, because my own experience at a gender clinic had me describing (unbeknownst to myself at the time) myself as a Null gendered person and the doctors insisting they would make me a woman.  This caused me some internal conflict and I found soon afterwards that the issue was that they had no concept of Null Gendered people and neither did I.  I notified them of what I discovered afterwards, but I think it is important information for doctors and patients and others to have available.

---

    I think we were offered a chance to submit a first person point of view to add to the definition pages (if I recall correctly).  If so, how do we submit it and what are the guidelines?


Thank you,

Rebis

Quote from: Rebis on November 28, 2007, 09:13:46 AM
    I think we were offered a chance to submit a first person point of view to add to the definition pages (if I recall correctly).  If so, how do we submit it and what are the guidelines?


Thank you,

Rebis

Any first person point of view must be submitted to myself for review before I will allow them to be added to the Wiki.  I will probably add a link to a new article that will contain them, at this time they will not be permitted to form the part of any main article.

So far the articles look very good.

Steph

Okay.  I will try to write something brief by the end of this weekend.

lovely start, sorry for any lack of help from this direction.

Quote from: Marq and Mia on November 28, 2007, 08:25:19 AM
First Attempt Complete
Please review entries as you see fit and suggest further modification and growth.

M&M,

Thanks for doing this, these look very good to me. About the only thing I'd suggest adding is that some (not all) people who identify as androgyne, null, non-binary, etc., experience intense levels of gender dysphoria and thus desire hrt or surgeries to bring their body more into accordance with their gender (or lack thereof) identities.

zythyra