Susan's Place Transgender Resources

`My heart breaks over their deception.' On Christian conservative opposition to transgender rights

By Jonathan Tilove
myStatesman 03/08/2017



http://politics.blog.mystatesman.com/2017/03/08/my-heart-breaks-over-their-deception-on-the-christian-opposition-to-transgender-rights/


Here's a peek into the mind of the folks in Texas who make up the opposition to transgender people using bathrooms and facilities corresponding with their gender identity.  As an aside, it seems to me that it's really pointless to try to have a rational discussion with people whose go to argument is, 'The devil makes you do it.'

It certainly shows the nonsense that "Christian belief" is.  I went to church as a kid, but came to my senses as I grew older and recognized religion for the delusion it is.

Keep the faith (pun intended)- more people are with us than against us.

Christ must be shaking his head at their unloving actions. Jesus called people that were seemingly legalistically moral but inwardly not, "white washed tombs". One can see the relevance of that analogy.

As I've been schooled so many times here, Nope, this has nothing to do with religion.

QuoteAmong the handful of other people who testified for SB 6 was Cindy Asmussen of Austin.

Asmussen is the ethics and religious liberty advisor at the Texas Ethics and Religious Liberty Committee of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention, and legislative director at Concerned Women for America of Texas.

"Words cannot explain what we saw today at the Capitol. There were hundreds of protestors – many whom were men dressed as women and parents bringing young children they were helping to transition to another sex. Then listening to the complete confusion from SO MANY lost people who testified. My heart breaks over their deception. I physically felt sick at the awful spirit in the hearing room. This is complete deception in which these people need God's delivering power."

Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

I'm afraid that if I was to comment on this in the manner I feel I would likely be banned.
Suffice it to say it disturbs me.
I'll leave it at that.

  Hugs,
   Jeanette

QuoteNope, this has nothing to do with religion

That's why I used quotes around "Christian belief".  All too often, people use religion to justify harmful behaviour towards others.  As I said, I went to church when I was a kid and this is certainly not what I learned there.

To be fair to the Christians in the article, I can pull out some 1600 year old quotes from a Doctor of the Church that say a lot worse things about us.  So they are not really straying outside the boundary here.  It is what it is.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Must.....keep.....my....mouth....shut. :P

I'm a Christian.  It gives me a lot of fear over whether or not my parents(preachers) will ever accept me.  But personally I see 2 options; either the devil has nothing to do with being trans* or just isn't evil, because we're all great people here.


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Quoteor just isn't evil

On the other hand, the way religion is all to often used, as in this example, is evil.

Evil exists as a potential within us all.  I agree though that the people that hang around here seem to have mostly avoided falling into that pit.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

QuoteEvil exists as a potential within us all.

Some dogmatic principle seem to actually encourage it, despite the rhetoric their precepts are clothed in. Guru's are seemingly perfectly misunderstood by the masses. Thus leaving interpretation to be bastardized by opportunists for their own crappy little purposes.

Quote from: Amanda_Combs on March 09, 2017, 03:53:19 PM
I'm a Christian.  It gives me a lot of fear over whether or not my parents(preachers) will ever accept me.  But personally I see 2 options; either the Devyl has nothing to do with being trans* or just isn't evil, because we're all great people here.

Fixed that for ya!  >:-)

Hugs, Devlyn

So much for the separation of church and state.  :(

Quote from: Violets on March 09, 2017, 06:26:13 PM
So much for the separation of church and state.  :(

Unfortunately,  that's never existed anywhere but in the idealists mind.

There are good Christian pastors, as I was pleasantly surprised to find out
: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ugl5hDuaVwQ


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Being as there are many among us that would support the bathroom bill, I am (pretty much) ordered to hits my tongue, and digress. They will probably be overjoyed when it passes. Much to their dismay, my weapon of choice is my birth certificate in a clear plastic envelope, in my purse. That certificate states I am female, which would make it illegal to use the men's facilities, even though I still have a penis.
Forget the spirit of the law. I shall use the "letter of the law" in the event anyone stops me when I need to pee.

Quote from: Lady Sarah on March 09, 2017, 08:45:14 PM
Being as there are many among us that would support the bathroom bill, I am (pretty much) ordered to hits my tongue, and digress. They will probably be overjoyed when it passes. Much to their dismay, my weapon of choice is my birth certificate in a clear plastic envelope, in my purse. That certificate states I am female, which would make it illegal to use the men's facilities, even though I still have a penis.
Forget the spirit of the law. I shall use the "letter of the law" in the event anyone stops me when I need to pee.

Anyone hassles me for using the restroom, they're going to get an earful. The proof will only be presented to the Police....and that will be begrudgingly. Then I think I'll request my assailant be arrested for simple assault. We gotta start standing up for our rights in a more zealous and vocal way.

These laws are not really enforceable and meant to scare people and to prevent children from transitioning. They are the ones that suffer the most from these type of bills especially since they ONLY apply to government buildings and public schools.

For me even after surgery, I can't get my birth certificate amended or changed because TN will NOT change it period. However if in TX (or NC) I would bring my passport with me (that does have Female) since in most cases (not sure about this particular law) a passport trumps a birth certificate. I've never been questioned in the women's restroom (or locker room at my gym) and haven't even been mis-gendered by a stranger in nearly 3 years. So it's unlikely I would ever have an issue.

Another group of people this is going to negatively affect is masculine looking cis-women. They are going to be questioned and possibly harassed in the women's bathroom.

I can't wait til the ftm start to flood the ladies rm  and see how fast they back pedal. I live in Texas and have never been hassled when using the womens rm when dressed, most times I find a gender neutral bathroom. See I don't force myself on others looking for rights above everyone else. I believe we are all EQUAL and no one is above another. I live my life and my fellow Texans let me.

You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.

Quote from: JeanetteLW on March 09, 2017, 11:27:18 PM
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.

LOL ......I feel your pain, Sister!

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on March 09, 2017, 10:50:10 PM
These laws are not really enforceable and meant to scare people and to prevent children from transitioning. They are the ones that suffer the most from these type of bills especially since they ONLY apply to government buildings and public schools.

<<Exactly, It will hurt the children the worst, and that is so sad that they are the ones targeted here. Since most adults will stand up for themselves with sort of ID with their new gender listed... >>

For me even after surgery, I can't get my birth certificate amended or changed because TN will NOT change it period. However if in TX (or NC) I would bring my passport with me (that does have Female) since in most cases (not sure about this particular law) a passport trumps a birth certificate. I've never been questioned in the women's restroom (or locker room at my gym) and haven't even been mis-gendered by a stranger in nearly 3 years. So it's unlikely I would ever have an issue.

<<I recently finally came out (after 57 years of keeping "everything" stuffed deep inside), and am so glad I live, and was born here in Washington State, as I shouldn't have any issue with getting my birth certificate and everything else changed to Female.... YEA....
Although speaking of the locker room at the gym, I found out the the YMCA's nationwide policy is gender inclusive, basically you use whatever locker room that matches the gender you present as. So since I have been F/T since the first of the year, I've been using the women's locker room with zero problems, and so far? I've never been mis-gendered....>>

Another group of people this is going to negatively affect is masculine looking cis-women. They are going to be questioned and possibly harassed in the women's bathroom.

<< It's going yo look awful funny, when all the masculine looking cis-women start filing law suites over sexual discrimination due to the fact that they're being questioned and harassed in not just the women's bathroom, but the women's locker room as well...... Time to sit back, and watch the sparks fly... heehee>>

Quote from: jentay1367 on March 09, 2017, 09:32:02 PM
Anyone hassles me for using the restroom, they're going to get an earful. The proof will only be presented to the Police....and that will be begrudgingly. Then I think I'll request my assailant be arrested for simple assault. We gotta start standing up for our rights in a more zealous and vocal way.

I am sure bigots will start policing bathrooms with their hateful zeal. This is likely to include stores, where they can consider it a public place. In such cases, management and the police will be involved. I will insist. I ain't leaving Texas, just because of BS like this.


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Quote from: Lady Sarah on March 10, 2017, 09:01:31 AM
I am sure bigots will start policing bathrooms with their hateful zeal.

Is it really that bad out there?

I don't want to sound like an idealist but, in reality, what do people think goes on in the ladies bathroom that doesn't go on in the mens?  Lets be honest, its not like its a communal hole in the ground that everyone squats around.  My wife said this to me yesterday about dressing rooms in stores.  Do the male politicians think that these places look like scenes from Caligula or something? It's a bunch of private cubicles for goodness sake.

We went into KFC Basingstoke and they have a gender neutral bathroom.  A row of cubicles, with locking doors, and comunal sinks/ dryers for all the customers to use.  Guess what, nobody was being attacked or abused, nobody was pointing and laughing.  Everyone was just going to the loo!

Worst still is that this isn't an issue about protecting anyone, it's about publicly denouncing trans people as "weirdos" and "perverts."  I know plenty of Cis Men & Women who are very disturbed and frankly violent individuals but, nobody cares because they are "normal!" 
It strikes me that the politicians have an idea of some unpleasant things they would like to get up to in the ladies bathroom, so they paste us with their deformed brush.

Sorry, rant over

Quote from: sammie83 on March 10, 2017, 09:57:41 AM
Is it really that bad out there?

https://thebraguy.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/fear-mongering-over-bathrooms-needs-to-stop/ (https://thebraguy.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/fear-mongering-over-bathrooms-needs-to-stop/)

Oh!

I guess being new here I should be very careful in my choice of words but, does that sort of behaviour not fall into the extreme category a little?  It's outright persecution.  I am sure I will be told differently but, I hope that this example is the exception and not the rule.

Honestly, if I thought that this sort of behaviour was occurring in the UK I would be terrified to go outside!

QuoteHonestly, if I thought that this sort of behaviour was occurring in the UK I would be terrified to go outside!

The U.S. has a long history of religion inspired bigotry.  Even the likes of the KKK used it to justify their beliefs and actions.

Even slavery was justified with the Bible.  Over 600K people died to settle that argument.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

It's difficult not to get drawn into a religious debate I guess, so I will tread carefully.  All I can really say is that, although my parents have religious inclinations, I have always tried myself to be more of a humanist.

Problem these days, one just ends up sounding like a "bleeding heart liberal" when saying things like, can't we all just get along.  The sad truth is, NO, we probably can't!  But that's not the issue here really, this isn't about getting along, its about forcing people to see things from a single narrow point of view.
I guess its not even asking anyone to "like" it but, just to accept that some people have different lives and different opinions. 
(It shouldn't have to be a case of please accept us though, its simply basic human compassion.)

QuoteThe sad truth is, NO, we probably can't!

The topic of this thread is a good indication of where most of that "can't" comes from.

I don't disagree.

For years I have thought of religion of being created as a control mechanism, using pseudo science to explain how the world works, to those looking for easy answers.  It's seemingly pretty easy to justify any sort of horrific behaviour by declaring it as the will of your specific deity.

Frankly I get annoyed that my daughters school take them to religious services at the local church.  Religion and education have repeatedly shown to be incompatible.   
(Again, being careful what I say because I don't want to offend if I can avoid it)

Meh. Good, evil, they're both fine choices.
Having gazed further into the abyss than any of these people have, I'm probably better at being truly evil than they are. They're just dumb and scared.

Luckily for them I'm doing my best to live in love  :angel:

For now   :icon_poke: :icon_evil:

Quote from: sammie83 on March 10, 2017, 09:57:41 AM
Is it really that bad out there?

I don't want to sound like an idealist but, in reality, what do people think goes on in the ladies bathroom that doesn't go on in the mens?  Lets be honest, its not like its a communal hole in the ground that everyone squats around.  My wife said this to me yesterday about dressing rooms in stores.  Do the male politicians think that these places look like scenes from Caligula or something? It's a bunch of private cubicles for goodness sake.

We went into KFC Basingstoke and they have a gender neutral bathroom.  A row of cubicles, with locking doors, and comunal sinks/ dryers for all the customers to use.  Guess what, nobody was being attacked or abused, nobody was pointing and laughing.  Everyone was just going to the loo!

Worst still is that this isn't an issue about protecting anyone, it's about publicly denouncing trans people as "weirdos" and "perverts."  I know plenty of Cis Men & Women who are very disturbed and frankly violent individuals but, nobody cares because they are "normal!" 
It strikes me that the politicians have an idea of some unpleasant things they would like to get up to in the ladies bathroom, so they paste us with their deformed brush.

Sorry, rant over

By the way, the bill states that gender neutral facilities shall not be provided.

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Horrific.  I can't get my head round this at all.

QuoteFrankly I get annoyed that my daughters school take them to religious services at the local church.

What country do you live in?  In Canada, that sort of thing wouldn't be allowed in public schools.  Also, in Ontario, where I live, we have the unfortunate situation of a tax funded separate school system for Catholics.  They're the only religion to have that.  As far as I'm concerned, it shouldn't be allowed, as it amounts to tax payer funded discrimination.  This is before we get to things like duplication of costs, tax payer funding of delusion, etc..  At the same time we're forced to pay for parallel school systems, we're closing more & more schools, cutting programs and more to reduce costs.  This makes having a separate school system even more of an obscenity.

I'm in England and she goes to "non religious" state funded school.  We have "faith schools" here too, with varying levels of secular acceptance. 

Quote from: JeanetteLW on March 09, 2017, 11:27:18 PM
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.
You do not have an opinion Jeanette.

Also, LOL.  100% agreeance with this sentiment. :)

Quote from: sammie83 on March 10, 2017, 11:14:21 AM
Problem these days, one just ends up sounding like a "bleeding heart liberal" when saying things like, can't we all just get along. 

Actually, the preferred term nowadays is "snowflake."   Not sure, but I think it has something to do with men seeming to be too feminine.

Quote from: sammie83 on March 10, 2017, 12:09:30 PM
I'm in England and she goes to "non religious" state funded school.  We have "faith schools" here too, with varying levels of secular acceptance.

I went to a religious school, and I can tell you personally that everything They told me there makes life harder every single day.  I'm really sorry you're not able to avoid that kind of thing even with a "non-religious" school.

I should t complain too much. At risk of sounding like a hypocrite, we still have Christmas... Well, it a mid winter gift giving festival anyway. :)

Ummm...  Christmas was a "pagan" festival that was hijacked by the Christians.  Check out Yule and Saturnalia.

Quote from: Jane Emily on March 10, 2017, 12:58:43 PM
Also, LOL.  100% agreeance with this sentiment. :)


Actually, the preferred term nowadays is "snowflake."   Not sure, but I think it has something to do with men seeming to be too feminine.

No, it's from "special little snowflake". They think that differences shouldn't be catered to.

Quote from: AnneK on March 10, 2017, 01:44:15 PM
Ummm...  Christmas was a "pagan" festival that was hijacked by the Christians.  Check out Yule and Saturnalia.

From the days when Christians were a persecuted minority. They chose the time when the pagan Romans were already celebrating so they wouldn't stand out.

Whenever I hear that snowflake term I laugh at the fact that the ones that use that term the most are the very same ones who are constantly whining about the imaginary great persecution they are undergoing in America.  LOL

Laugh at them!


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Lady Sarah on March 10, 2017, 09:01:31 AM
I am sure bigots will start policing bathrooms with their hateful zeal. This is likely to include stores, where they can consider it a public place. In such cases, management and the police will be involved. I will insist. I ain't leaving Texas, just because of BS like this.


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That a girl! Cuz' if we don't stand up for ourselves, no one else will. We must be united and resolute and like other minorities of the past, not beg for, but demand our rights. Squeaky wheel has always gotten the grease.

Quote from: Dee Marshall on March 10, 2017, 04:02:50 PM
No, it's from "special little snowflake". They think that differences shouldn't be catered to.

You are correct. I looked it up. But for some reason (maybe it's just me) but whenever I hear that term I can hear echoes of the word sissy.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

The one good thing about the internet is that people like that are getting lots of exposure.  That, along with the recent election, is totally discrediting that brand of Christianity as having any claim to either morality or family values.  This is good.  It may still take a while longer but they are destroying themselves.

Don't get mad. Laugh at them!


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Christians did not use the pagan holy days to hide from the Romans,all the pagan holy Christian days started in 329 a.d. as a edict from the universal church of Rome. I may be low income I chose this way of life to hide in plain sight,I'm very intelligent too much for my own well being for I know where a lot of bodies are buried.

Quote from: Deborah on March 11, 2017, 09:46:07 AM
The one good thing about the internet is that people like that are getting lots of exposure.  That, along with the recent election, is totally discrediting that brand of Christianity as having any claim to either morality or family values.  This is good.  It may still take a while longer but they are destroying themselves.

Don't get mad. Laugh at them!


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Unfortunately, the lizard brain feeds off fear. Those who motivate the throng know just how get them riled and brainwash the new novitiates. As much as I'd like to believe were moving forward and they're all going the way of the dinosaur, the new WH gang leads me to believe differently.

Quote from: Deborah on March 10, 2017, 11:13:44 AM
Even slavery was justified with the Bible.  Over 600K people died to settle that argument.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Deborah, being from the south or living there, can you give insight to the mentality? I'm from NY originally and people usually mind their own business. You'd think they'd at least consider the economic consequences like in NC where they lost a lot. I don't get it. In my world, Jesus never preached that. They seem to be children of an angry god. Thanks.


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Quote from: jentay1367 on March 11, 2017, 10:30:10 AM
Unfortunately, the lizard brain feeds off fear. Those who motivate the throng know just how get them riled and brainwash the new novitiates. As much as I'd like to believe were moving forward and they're all going the way of the dinosaur, the new WH gang leads me to believe differently.

The thing is if trump ever vapor-locked or was impeached, pence would be 10x worse. He believes in conversion therapy.


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Well, despite all my rhetoric, in my town I haven't really seen any anti-LGBT activity.  Nobody has ever given me a hard time or really even so much as a second look.  I dress down so I'm not sure if it's because I blend in well or something else but everyone is nice.  Even in complete male mode (except for my hair), picking up estradiol at the military pharmacy people are all smiles and even seem to go out of their way to be helpful.  That's kind of how everyone is in the military but I have never felt any hostility of any kind.

That said, Georgia is somewhat progressive compared to the other Southern states and my town in particular is heavily military so people here are accustomed to quite a bit of diversity.  We train lots of foreigners here from places all over the world.

Maybe if I lived in a small insular place I might have a different experience.

A few years ago I was involved in a Southern heritage organization and heavily involved in Civil War reenacting.  There were lots of rednecks there, LOL, but mostly they were pretty good people.  However, there was also quite a bit of racism not too far under the surface.  It's not as out in the open as it was when I was a child but it's still there to a lesser degree.  Really, that was what made me drop all of that.  I found a booth at an event selling anti miscegenation CDs from some Baptist preacher which infuriated me as my wife is from a different ethnic group.

This stuff is just passed down from generation to generation so it takes a long time to die out.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Thank you.


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QuoteThis stuff is just passed down from generation to generation so it takes a long time to die out.

That's the problem of course, ignorance is an infectious disease.

Yes it is.  But in the USA it's a whole lot less an issue than in many other places.  I worked in one place in particular in Europe where they were still killing each other over a grudge that began in 1389.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Deborah on March 11, 2017, 05:49:33 PM
Yes it is.  But in the USA it's a whole lot less an issue than in many other places.  I worked in one place in particular in Europe where they were still killing each other over a grudge that began in 1389.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Well Deb, let's hope we wise up quicker than that. I haven't been particularly hopeful regarding Americans learning curve, either. :embarrassed:

QuoteThey seem to be children of an angry god.

A huge problem is fundamentalist religion.  They take the view they're right and everyone else, including other denominations of the same religion, are wrong.  They also consider the bible to be the absolute truth, when in fact it's anything but.  So, they take some point in it, often out of context, and then use it to harm others, claiming all along they're "good Christians".  I experienced this myself, when I was a kid, before I realized that religion was nonsense.  Even though I was going to church then, I was apparently not going to heaven, because I wasn't going to the right church!

QuoteWell Deb, let's hope we wise up quicker than that.

As long as there's religion, that's not likely to happen.

Quote from: jentay1367 on March 11, 2017, 05:07:18 PM
That's the problem of course, ignorance is an infectious disease.

Ignorance is bliss, yet misery loves company, and trying to teach the difference may be hazardous to one's health.

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Quote from: TransParkie on March 10, 2017, 05:24:08 AM
<< It's going yo look awful funny, when all the masculine looking cis-women start filing law suites over sexual discrimination due to the fact that they're being questioned and harassed in not just the women's bathroom, but the women's locker room as well...... Time to sit back, and watch the sparks fly... heehee>>

It's  a little late, but I want to welcome you to the site.

I am afraid your descriptions may well come to pass.

I also want to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome information and the rules that govern the site. If you have not had a chance to look through them, please take a moment:

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)	Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)	News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)

Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.

With warmth,

Joanna

I encourage everyone to hang around with young people. You will usually come away with confidence in a brighter future of diversity and acceptance. Are their subcultures of younger folks that try and follow in the sexist, racists etc. footsteps? yes there are but even those people are generally less egregious than their parents.

Finally, religion itself is losing influence on society. I live in one of the least "church attendance" states in the union and as much as i see value in faith,  it is not hard to see the value in lack of it or at least lack of it in any organized way.

Quote from: RobynD on March 21, 2017, 11:57:30 AM
I encourage everyone to hang around with young people. You will usually come away with confidence in a brighter future of diversity and acceptance. Are their subcultures of younger folks that try and follow in the sexist, racists etc. footsteps? yes there are but even those people are generally less egregious than their parents.

Finally, religion itself is losing influence on society. I live in one of the least "church attendance" states in the union and as much as i see value in faith,  it is not hard to see the value in lack of it or at least lack of it in any organized way.

Yes I agree. The younger folks, even in conservative circles are more open than their parents. I also think that we're seeing a last gasp of old time religion with the latest stuff. In 5-10 years they will be a small minority. On the other hand, I'm surprised there hasn't been the economic reaction there was in NC. If Texas loses money, the voters will follow our lead.


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