Susan's Place Transgender Resources

   I used to say that I wanted to pass as cis because I hated the thought of having to depend on people's good will, tolerance, generous intentions, (whatever is the best word) in order to have positive interactions with people. I tend to hate needing anything from anybody. If people knew I was trans, I wouldn't get the free pass of not being different from others, I would keep majority status. Of course, if I am seen as trans, I am then in a minority, something I am mostly not used to.  I realize that people have that minority status all the time. They deal with it every day. They are who they are and never experienced having one status removed for another.  Am I a bit of a spoiled brat, needing to pass so I don't give up majority status? Don't get me wrong, part of me says, "I am who I am, screw you if you don't like it." I have both emotions sometimes at the same time.
   Does anyone else have that insecurity in being seen as a trans person (I know, dumb question.) I am a minority in one sense, I am an Atheist, and that is a status as a minority that doesn't bother me at all. So maybe my internalized, lifelong trans shame and fear are still working on my head when it comes to being seen by strangers as part of the trans minority. Setting aside safety concerns and my desire to be just another woman, does this desire to be seen as cis seem unhealthy? Am I only at peace if I overcome this more completely?
   Not sure if this is a topic that is interesting to others. If not consider it a rant. I am curious to know about comfort levels and being seen as trans vrs cis. Are there different ways to be at peace with this?
Moni

I am an introvert and as such, I don't really need other peoples approval. When it comes to passing, others can take me or leave me as long as they aren't rude to me. I understand that introverts are relatively rare and it's far better to have and enjoy social connections. I suspect part of the reason I developed as an introvert is so much of my life I have had to solve all my problems myself so I never shared much of myself. Possibly I am an endangered species but that would be a good thing.

I think this is an interesting question in how we allow our gender issues to influence our lives in a broader sense. I am a Prof, I teach, I run a Department and I publish and talk in public. I did so when I presented as male, I had to when I transitioned.
What I did notice was that my personal confidence soared when I transitioned, 'he' was aways reticent in public I am not.
Obviously I am seen and known as TG by those who new me prior to my transition and no doubt the word has been passed on; there is no hiding for me in that world, there can be no stealth.

How has that affected how I am perceived and treated?

Well a social experiment did recently develop, as you and many others know I have been ill and under hospital treatment. Although my treating surgeons knew of my background it was not advertised or mentioned in my clinical notes as here was no relevancy to my treatment. It was also decided that my past gender status would be deliberately kept private from staff. So my nursing staff were not aware of my past status. I was just another woman.

So how did that change how I was treated in a day to day manner? I noticed no change. I was treated with the same courtesy and friendliness by those who had no idea of my status as with those who new me in my past life.

I am by nature polite and I treat people with respect and I thank people who help me and I am not 'pushy' (believe it or not from my Forum status :laugh:) and I do find people respond in kind.

So my feeling is that we tend to overstate our gender diversity in society and worry more than we should. Of course there is a caveat, I live in an accepting society in Australia where many people wouldn't care if you painted yourself blue and declared that you were a Smurf. I realise that another places in the world such diversity would not be accepted.

It's not so much for others that I've worked hard to pass as a cis woman, although it's nice to be seen and treated as a women by both men and other women.  It's more about wanting to pass as a woman in my own mind.  One of the reasons I didn't pursue cross-dressing as a coping strategy to counter my early GD is because the idea that I could overcome my masculine body features with clothes, makeup and a wig seemed ludicrous.  When I began my transition and started to present as a woman, the result was not as bad as I imagined, but there's no way I was fooling anyone.  This bothered me a lot.  People paid me compliments on my style of dress and overall appearance, but I knew they weren't being completely honest.  I needed to measure up to my own standards of femininity to find peace of mind. 

I don't show photos of my pre-transition appearance, but people who knew me well back then tell me that they'd never recognize me as that person today.   The need to leave my masculine appearance far behind was a very important part of my transition.  I'm fortunate to have led a productive life, and saved money for many years so that I could afford the surgeries and feminization treatments that were needed to de-masculinize my external appearance.  Today, I'm happy to say that I've largely undone the horrible trick that nature played on me. 

I wish I could pass, and am working in that direction although not with an expectation (just a hope) of succeeding eventually.  But I worry about trespassing into the cis women's world -- they've been dealing with male entitlement all their lives, and now here comes one of them hoping to gain whatever privileges women get.  I just don't know if I would deserve that, if I could earn female trust.

Thank you for bringing this up! I'm a bit behind you on my path, still presenting totally masculine, haven't even started to grow my hair or anything. The whole idea of being in the minority is something that's been hard to get my head around. I grew up as a straight white male (also athiest, but that's more internalized than the other qualities). I try not to care what others think, but it's much easier said than done. I've accepted that I'm not in the majority, but the thing I'm struggling with now is the way other people will perceive me. Honestly, the presenting as a woman part doesn't bother me as much as people knowing what's going on with me while I'm in these early, less physically tangible stages. I think being trans has everything to do with that. I don't want to be seen as transgender. I just want to be seen as a woman. Living & being perceived as a woman is no issue for me, but being perceived as a transgender woman is a bit harder, and given the sentiment & treatment towards our community in many demographics, I don't think that is unjustified. Of course, that isn't cause for me not to transition, just something else to get over along my journey.

I can't say I don't care, I do. I care that people I pass on the street will see me and make a snap decision. Snap as to my sexuality. I've been married 32 years to the same woman. I love her dearly. She is the mother of my children. I wish it could have been the other way around. Snap decision, I am a pervert. A snap decision I am only interested in raping women. A snap decision I want more rights. A snap decision I chose this.
They don't know the pain of living under an assumed name, sex. Believe me it was not a snap decision, It was not a rash decision. I promised my sister I would get therapy. This is the decision Kristi and I came up with. It was not a desire for sex. I've never really been that interested as evidenced by my first marriage..
I hope for acceptance, not to pass. I want when I walk down the street the girls say "I want that dress" or how about those earrings. I want men to look at me and then ignore me and keep their crude comments to themselves.
I've never handled criticism well especially when it is unwarranted. Do they know I am chemically castrated? The thought of  anal sex repulses me. Maybe if I  was 45 years younger, I would not have that opinion. But I defend to the heavens your right to pursue happiness in whatever orifice suits you We are all the same, but different. It's not my outward appearance I want to reveal, it is my personality, my altered brain that wants to be kind and gentle, caring  and true to myself.

I guess I want a piece of what you have Cindy and piece of what Clara has also. I am out as a trans woman to everyone I know from pre-transition. I am very okay with being known as trans to them. It is comfortable enough. The thing is, I don't want to be the trans person in every situation. I crave just being an ordinary  woman too, say, out in public. I don't want to live every minute of life with me defined as trans. The positive emotion tied to that is really wanting to be seen as a cis female like in Clara's situation. I feel like I should feel like Dena, 'whatever your impression of me, fine!'  Maybe I should own being trans all the time, view it as just being a minority group,  and move on. I don't think it is that I am embarrassed to be trans. I am not feeling embarrassed with every one that knows me. I just don't want that 'only trans' approach. Why do I feel guilty saying that? Almost like I am turning my back on any 'trans pride.' Well, everyone is different. It is  foolish to pay heed to 'shoulds' in this life. Truth be told, if I didn't have to lose the rest of my life to do it, I would try to be stealth. I guess I am rambling, sorry.
   Randy, cis women don't have to deal with the mess that is dysphoria. We pay our dues. I think, in fact, that we pay womanhood a compliment because we value it so much we want to be part of it. To me, a woman is privileged just because she has the things I want. Being a man is no privilege to me.
Moni

I'm going play devil's advocate and throw out a rather bleak point of view.  It's not meant to discourage so much as to make you think long and hard about pulling the transition trigger if there are troubling obstacles before you.

Gender dysphoria is no picnic, but neither is transitioning, and very often neither is life post-transition depending on your expectations and how well you're able to meet them.  Just because a person is trans and experiences GD, does not automatically mean they should transition.  One has to do some serious introspection to learn who they are, what they need at a minimum to survive, what they are capable of achieving, and what they are willing to give up. 

Gender transitioning is likely to be the most difficult, disruptive, and costly thing you'll ever undertake with no guarantee of finding happiness on the other side.  If your goal is to become an ordinary everyday woman that blends into society, to be welcomed into the ranks of cis womenhood as an equal, and not experience the heartbreak of rejection for being 'different', you are setting for yourself an objective that very few late transitioning trans women can pull off.  If that's a major concern, I would work on overcoming that need before moving forward; that and any other matter that is haunting you about what the future will be like.  These issues need to be talked out with your gender therapist before you dive in. 

It may turn out that the best path is to continue coping with GD as best you can even if it means GD will be with you forever.  GD is wicked, and in most cases can only be lessened, not erased.  I know a lot of transgender people who have taken this approach knowing that the way forward is so loaded with landmines that there's no reasonable way to live full-time as the person they so dream of being. 

Acknowledgement, acceptance and adaptation to the unique circumstances you face can go along way toward finding peace in your life without transitioning. 

Quote from: Clara Kay on April 25, 2017, 09:17:21 PM
I'm going play devil's advocate and throw out a rather bleak point of view.  It's not meant to discourage so much as to make you think long and hard about pulling the transition trigger if there are troubling obstacles before you.

Gender dysphoria is no picnic, but neither is transitioning, and very often neither is life post-transition depending on your expectations and how well you're able to meet them.  Just because a person is trans and experiences GD, does not automatically mean they should transition.  One has to do some serious introspection to learn who they are, what they need at a minimum to survive, what they are capable of achieving, and what they are willing to give up. 

Gender transitioning is likely to be the most difficult, disruptive, and costly thing you'll ever undertake with no guarantee of finding happiness on the other side.  If your goal is to become an ordinary everyday woman that blends into society, to be welcomed into the ranks of cis womenhood as an equal, and not experience the heartbreak of rejection for being 'different', you are setting for yourself an objective that very few late transitioning trans women can pull off.  If that's a major concern, I would work on overcoming that need before moving forward; that and any other matter that is haunting you about what the future will be like.  These issues need to be talked out with your gender therapist before you dive in. 

It may turn out that the best path is to continue coping with GD as best you can even if it means GD will be with you forever.  GD is wicked, and in most cases can only be lessened, not erased.  I know a lot of transgender people who have taken this approach knowing that the way forward is so loaded with landmines that there's no reasonable way to live full-time as the person they so dream of being. 

Acknowledgement, acceptance and adaptation to the unique circumstances you face can go along way toward finding peace in your life without transitioning.

Maybe I  gave the wrong impression. I am full time 10 months. It is amazing how much better life is. I have not had a single thought of going back. My biggest source of stress is if GCS is prevented for some reason (late June.) I have no doubts that the path I am on is right. Believe me it was a well thought out decision. I have no thoughts that this surgery will fix any other problems. This thread is about a point of view within my transition. Transition itself is not the question. The thought of my whole life as stealth is not a serious thought. Like I said, a large part of my life is involving me as being known as trans. That is something I am at peace with. The part about always being on as 'trans' is the part I am figuring out.
Moni

I'm sorry, Moni, I went off the subject of your original post.  I'm glad that you feel you are on the right track with no desire to turn back. 

To respond to your question directly, sure I have some insecurity about being seen as a trans woman.  For those who don't know that I'm trans, it's hard to gauge to what extent people see me as trans.  My experience and rational mind tells me that most everyone sees me as a cis woman, but there's still some insecurity lingering that causes doubts.  I still take steps to lessen the chances of being clocked.  There's no way I can erase every last vestige of masculinity.  So I pay attention to the details that stand out as feminine.  Most people are, thankfully, not that discerning. 

Does hiding my medical history make me feel guilty about not supporting my community by being out and proud?  Not really.  I identify with a tiny minority of a tiny minority, i.e., transsexual women.  We are less than 10% of the larger transgender population.  My primary concern is the plight of transgender children.  To deal with gender dysphoria before puberty is the answer for people like us.

Quote from: HappyMoni on April 25, 2017, 09:03:10 PM
   Randy, cis women don't have to deal with the mess that is dysphoria. We pay our dues. I think, in fact, that we pay womanhood a compliment because we value it so much we want to be part of it. To me, a woman is privileged just because she has the things I want. Being a man is no privilege to me.
Moni

Thank you Moni.  You're right, we are striving toward something we see as better.  Certainly I feel strongly that the world would be a better place if feminine energy dominated rather than male energy.  I wasn't suggesting that we MtF's have valued male privilege, but rather I was wondering if cis women would resent "males" for intruding into their space. 
But I appreciate your perspective and will keep that in my mind -- we admire and value the feminine side.
Randy

I'll throw my 02 cents in. From someone who has been in a minority group from birth- cerebral palsy, I can attest to the visceral need to simply be "normal ". It's not just the dysphoria – the internal conflict with your own body, The cognitive dissonance that interacting in society as an incongruent gender.  You're also lacking the social grease that comes with falling into the majority, being able to go with the flow, and have all the normal struggles of life that most anyone can relate to.

Along with the cerebral palsy/cp I have several less obvious and yet far more impacting rare health issues. I am patient zero for a rare (obviously lol) form of epilepsy, along with corneal nerve damage that affect less than 1,000 people globally, cluster headaches (worst pain known to mankind) daily migraines, systemic nerve damage from an unknown origin. I'm not trying or wanting pity or sympathy, just trying to paint a picture. My body is the exception to the rule in most every way. At the same time I am often seen by strangers as a freeloader, lazy etc. What those same strangers don't understand is that I would sacrifice anything to be able to just go to work, pay my bills, live my life as a productive member of society. Instead I am constantly judged, deemed an entitled millennial ; a burden on society.

These are all broad strokes of course. What the strangers don't know is that I'm well educated, was mid career in the IT industry when my health failed overnight.

The parallel this very much how the fast majority of people wish they could grab those handicap parking spots without ever knowing the high cost one must pay in order to get that insignia.

Going back to being accepted and partaking in the world every cis person enjoys- I think that wanting to have a normal life in the gender role you should have had is perfectly normal, even to a cis person. While almost no trans individual will ever have that experience, if only due to all the experience missed from birth to transition, and all the mental and emotional issues that come with GID I believe it is normal to aspire, to get as close as we can to the life and experiences that we should have had. There is a certain amount of grieving that took place after I transitioned forthright loss of a normal childhood, a normal puberty, and a normal adult experience. I grieved for the normality of a life not lived as female just as I grieved for a normal healthy childhood. From day one the medical world was a part of my life. My normal growing up was physical therapy, occupational therapy, and after second grade being seen as different with all the teasing, ridicule, and bullying that comes with being different from other kids.

Oddly enough after transitioning I pass 100% of the time. Out of all the weird health stuff in my life, being trans has been the least detrimental in terms of opportunity costs. And yet even so, I wish it was something I never had to deal with, never had to explain to specialists who ask if hrt is for birth control, or when my last menstrual cycle was.

I know that my life will never be normal, that this body is one in seven billion. Does that stop me from wanting and aspiring for a normal, average, and typical life in the days I have left. Most definitely not. I will continue to aspire for what most take for granted.

Average
Normal
Mundane
Typical
Unremarkable

The experience that simply is being human and living a life.


~Brooke~

Of course, I care what people think of me. I evaluate every person I come into contact with. I like to make sure everything will stay all nice and peaceful, especially since my former life was pure hell. Even the beginning of my transition was pure hell.
Fortunately, the past 15 years or so have been without conflict. People have been wonderful. I absolutely love volunteering at the local food pantry, and have friendships with several of the other volunteers. However, memories constantly remind me to keep sharp ears and sharp eyes, just in case. Call it a form of PTSD, if you will.

Quote from: Brooke on April 25, 2017, 11:15:20 PM
I'll throw my 02 cents in. From someone who has been in a minority group from birth- cerebral palsy, I can attest to the visceral need to simply be "normal ". It's not just the dysphoria – the internal conflict with your own body, The cognitive dissonance that interacting in society as an incongruent gender.  You're also lacking the social grease that comes with falling into the majority, being able to go with the flow, and have all the normal struggles of life that most anyone can relate to.

Along with the cerebral palsy/cp I have several less obvious and yet far more impacting rare health issues. I am patient zero for a rare (obviously lol) form of epilepsy, along with corneal nerve damage that affect less than 1,000 people globally, cluster headaches (worst pain known to mankind) daily migraines, systemic nerve damage from an unknown origin. I'm not trying or wanting pity or sympathy, just trying to paint a picture. My body is the exception to the rule in most every way. At the same time I am often seen by strangers as a freeloader, lazy etc. What those same strangers don't understand is that I would sacrifice anything to be able to just go to work, pay my bills, live my life as a productive member of society. Instead I am constantly judged, deemed an entitled millennial ; a burden on society.

These are all broad strokes of course. What the strangers don't know is that I'm well educated, was mid career in the IT industry when my health failed overnight.

The parallel this very much how the fast majority of people wish they could grab those handicap parking spots without ever knowing the high cost one must pay in order to get that insignia.

Going back to being accepted and partaking in the world every cis person enjoys- I think that wanting to have a normal life in the gender role you should have had is perfectly normal, even to a cis person. While almost no trans individual will ever have that experience, if only due to all the experience missed from birth to transition, and all the mental and emotional issues that come with GID I believe it is normal to aspire, to get as close as we can to the life and experiences that we should have had. There is a certain amount of grieving that took place after I transitioned forthright loss of a normal childhood, a normal puberty, and a normal adult experience. I grieved for the normality of a life not lived as female just as I grieved for a normal healthy childhood. From day one the medical world was a part of my life. My normal growing up was physical therapy, occupational therapy, and after second grade being seen as different with all the teasing, ridicule, and bullying that comes with being different from other kids.

Oddly enough after transitioning I pass 100% of the time. Out of all the weird health stuff in my life, being trans has been the least detrimental in terms of opportunity costs. And yet even so, I wish it was something I never had to deal with, never had to explain to specialists who ask if hrt is for birth control, or when my last menstrual cycle was.

I know that my life will never be normal, that this body is one in seven billion. Does that stop me from wanting and aspiring for a normal, average, and typical life in the days I have left. Most definitely not. I will continue to aspire for what most take for granted.

Average
Normal
Mundane
Typical
Unremarkable

The experience that simply is being human and living a life.


~Brooke~

Brooke, thank you so much for sharing this personal information. It does help with my perspective and maybe others as well. Maybe the simple answer is that whatever sets us apart from being 'typical' and the other words you offered, we should strive to be the best 'us' that we can be. There is no shame in wanting to be who we want to be. There is no betrayal of any group that we may be categorized as, to reach for our own personal goals. I had a bad time today at the grocery store with some guy insisting on calling me 'Sir' continually. I thought of Dena and Cindy, who probably would have let it run right off their shoulders. For me, it made me feel like crap. I could have thought of you and thought look at what Brooke has dealt with, and I can't handle this? Well, I guess we all have to take it on a personal basis. I am not really that far along in transition. It makes sense that I hate being misgendered. One day I might have the ability to not care, but I have decided I am not gonna feel guilty for not wanting to wear my 'I am trans and proud' button on my shirt every day. I don't want to speak for everyone, but things like being misgendered hurt more when we aren't satisfied  with ourselves. I am not able to feel confident or happy with myself while I still have what is in my pants. I won't apologize for that either.
   I think sometimes we come close to telling others that, "You shouldn't feel this way or that way." There is a lot of giving and taking of advice that happens on this site. I hope I never tell someone how they should feel.
   Randy, sorry if I misunderstood. I think most woman I have been in contact with don't resent trans folks. It has been quite the opposite, they seem to get joy out of helping me with my transition.
   Sarah, glad your life has gotten so much better. I get the sharp eyes and ears comment.
   Dawn, 'kind, gentle, caring and true to myself.' I love that thought.
   Rambler, you and I have a very similar frame of mind. You will be going through some very difficult, uncomfortable times. It does get better though. You will make adjustments, then more tough times then more adjustments. The good news is it can get really good. Maybe you and I on the lower end of climbing this mountain have to know that those on the summit walked right where we are now at some point in their journey.
   Clara, you had me wondering what I said that led to that direction, but all is good. I love all you ladies for contributing thoughts.
Moni

Great Thread and a good diversity of opinions. Do I care if I pass...the short answer is yes I do...would it ever be a factor in wether I transition or not...NO...I too live in the same society as Cindy and my expectations  are very low...I will never pass as a cis woman...it is stupid for me to even think that. However what I do expect is to be treated with dignity and politeness. I am a polite person and since transition have thrown a good part of my anger away so things don't upset me like they used to.

I went back into the social security office the other day after saying goodbye to my wife  and no kidding 60 pars of eyes turned to look at me...I gave them all my biggest smile and went and sat down. I wasn't trying to pass I was trying to be me.

I was thinking about time, space and how big everything is, how long the universe has been around, how long our lives are in comparison...they are a split second in the whole scheme of things. So why spend that split second being miserable when you can live your life as you wish.

I might have another 20 years on this earth and there is no way I am going to spend it wishing I had lived my life a certain way...I should have done this 18 years ago when I desperately wanted to...but I sacrificed nearly 2/3rd of my life so I don't make other people uncomfortable....

Passing never even entered into the consideration for Transition...45+ years of GD...that was enough!!

Liz

Moni, if your personal truth is that you're a woman, of course you're going to want to be seen as just that.  And the unfortunate reality of our society is that for the vast majority of people in the West, your "trans" history (whether gleaned by virtue of embodiment or narrative) will change how people interact with you, and in particular will change the gendering you receive, though that doesn't mean people won't be kind -- as Cindy points out, respect begets respect, and many will put forth a good-faith effort.  But as someone who's practiced non-disclosure for nearly two decades, while also having experience in disclosed contexts, I think there's a discernible difference in the experience. 

That said, for a lot of people, the initial impression you make will be the impression that sticks.  If you pass, and at some future point narrative disclosure occurs, it might not change anything... in short-term interactions, primarily.  For long-term relationships (work, friendship, love) misgendering can manifest subtly over time.  Context is everything. 

Quote from: HappyMoni on April 25, 2017, 09:03:10 PMI don't want to be the trans person in every situation. I crave just being an ordinary  woman too, say, out in public. I don't want to live every minute of life with me defined as trans. The positive emotion tied to that is really wanting to be seen as a cis female like in Clara's situation. I feel like I should feel like Dena, 'whatever your impression of me, fine!'  Maybe I should own being trans all the time, view it as just being a minority group,  and move on. I don't think it is that I am embarrassed to be trans. I am not feeling embarrassed with every one that knows me. I just don't want that 'only trans' approach. Why do I feel guilty saying that? Almost like I am turning my back on any 'trans pride.' Well, everyone is different. It is  foolish to pay heed to 'shoulds' in this life. Truth be told, if I didn't have to lose the rest of my life to do it, I would try to be stealth.

Our emotions precede conscious thought.  Not only can't we control what they are, they are a source of authenticity.  After all, if we could just make the dysphoria go away with a snap of the fingers, we would, wouldn't we?  But we can't.  So we have to change contexts such that dysphoria is no longer triggered.  And this will vary from person to person -- what I need is not what you need, and so forth.

If you want to experience an ordinary woman's life, I recommend finding contexts where you can maintain your narrative privacy, and go from there. 

Quote from: Sophia Sage on April 27, 2017, 11:05:46 AM
Our emotions precede conscious thought.  Not only can't we control what they are, they are a source of authenticity.  After all, if we could just make the dysphoria go away with a snap of the fingers, we would, wouldn't we?  But we can't.  So we have to change contexts such that dysphoria is no longer triggered.  And this will vary from person to person -- what I need is not what you need, and so forth.

If you want to experience an ordinary woman's life, I recommend finding contexts where you can maintain your narrative privacy, and go from there.

This is so true in my experience.  My SO and I spend winters in Arizona, a rather politically conservative state compared to our permanent home in Illinois near Chicago.  All my friends and acquaintances up north know of my past in complete contrast to our friends and neighbors in AZ.  There are good and bad things about "nondisclosure".  It's not just how people interact with you, it's how you interact with them.  When I know that they don't know about my past, a subtle but different dynamic takes place.   It goes beyond the normal civil respect that I get as a known trans woman in Chicago.  Women, and particularly men, are far less guarded in the way they related to me here in AZ.  It's nice.  On the other hand, we have to be more guarded so as not to give my private past away, something I don't concern myself with where my status is already known.  So it's a two-edged sword.  Deciding what to disclose is a tricky thing, too.  It's impossible to not have a past.  Disclosing parts of it just can't be avoided.  It can be a bit stressful in some situations to have to filter your comments during a conversation.  As basically social introverts, that kind of verbal pre-processing comes natural for us.  And, like with all skills, we've gotten better at it the more we practice.

Quote from: Clara Kay on April 27, 2017, 11:42:49 AMThere are good and bad things about "nondisclosure".  It's not just how people interact with you, it's how you interact with them. 

When I know that they don't know about my past, a subtle but different dynamic takes place.   It goes beyond the normal civil respect that I get as a known trans woman in Chicago.  Women, and particularly men, are far less guarded in the way they related to me here in AZ.  It's nice. 

Yeah, isn't that interesting?  I always feel more "free" in contexts of non-disclosure.  Like I can really be myself.  And that changes when I enter disclosed spaces -- like visiting family, for instance. 

Disclosure changes everyone.  Which makes sense to me -- for "coming out" is a social ritual that (typically) establishes new social categorization.  The problem with disclosure is that while it can help move one past the incorrect gendering pre-transition, it has the opposite effect post-transition.

QuoteOn the other hand, we have to be more guarded so as not to give my private past away, something I don't concern myself with where my status is already known.  So it's a two-edged sword.  Deciding what to disclose is a tricky thing, too.  It's impossible to not have a past.  Disclosing parts of it just can't be avoided.  It can be a bit stressful in some situations to have to filter your comments during a conversation.  As basically social introverts, that kind of verbal pre-processing comes natural for us.  And, like with all skills, we've gotten better at it the more we practice.

Over time, you might find that "translating" the past comes naturally and easily with practice.  I don't really have to filter anything anymore.  My narrative is my narrative -- and only a very few things need to be elided. 

Some interesting ideas being discussed here, but I don't agree with them all.

For example, some people treat me differently when they know, but they are a minority of my friends and acquaintances. For the most part, I'm treated like any other woman they know. I thought, early on, that being out and therefore "different" would lead to me being treated differently, I was wrong. Through observation and experience, I've learnt that to most of them I'm just another woman.

I also don't think "editing" your past is a viable solution.. Sure, I will tell stories from my past, but correcting my name/gender is as far as the editing goes. Too much editing just turns it in to an often hard to remember lie.

For some context, I live in the same city as Cindy, but there's probably about a 20 year difference in our ages. She appears as a fairly normal older woman. As for me? I'm much more identifiable as trans - or at least I think so..

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 27, 2017, 06:17:10 PM
Some interesting ideas being discussed here, but I don't agree with them all.

For example, some people treat me differently when they know, but they are a minority of my friends and acquaintances. For the most part, I'm treated like any other woman they know. I thought, early on, that being out and therefore "different" would lead to me being treated differently, I was wrong. Through observation and experience, I've learnt that to most of them I'm just another woman.

I also don't think "editing" your past is a viable solution.. Sure, I will tell stories from my past, but correcting my name/gender is as far as the editing goes. Too much editing just turns it in to an often hard to remember lie.

For some context, I live in the same city as Cindy, but there's probably about a 20 year difference in our ages. She appears as a fairly normal older woman. As for me? I'm much more identifiable as trans - or at least I think so..

I don't think it's a matter of agreeing, Kelly, each of us has to chart our own way in the world post-transition.  There is no right or wrong way to live.   Everyone's path will be different depending on circumstances like where you live and how well you pass.

I've never encountered a person to treat me poorly, but that doesn't mean they don't treat me differently.  There are some people who, being aware of my past, go out of their way to be nice to me.  It's like they want to prove to me that they are not transphobic.  Others who I have every reason to believe are transphobic drop into PC mode.  Of course there are others who do not care that I'm trans, but the only ones I absolutely know are completely accepting are my SO, my sister, and my son.

I've been disappointed not to be invited to join a group of women in an event when it would have been natural and appropriate to do so.  Cancelling out of an invitation that I've extended after first accepting is also common among those who know of my past.  Contrast this with an invitation to join a group on a cruise this fall.  The difference?  To these people, I'm just another woman friend who they feel would be fun to have along.

The amount of "editing" I do is minimal.  I don't hide my past career, for example, even though it was almost exclusively male profession for my generation.  On the other hand, my marital status and past, if revealed, would immediately raise questions.  To tell people that my partner (a woman) and I have been married for many years would be like telling someone I was a navy fighter pilot in my youth.  Huh?!

I have not made up my mind whether or not to continue with 'non-disclosure'.  It's something that I'm lucky enough to have as an option, but it is not an ideal way to live.  I'm sure that one day I'll be outed and the deception may not go over well with some friends.  Living an authentic life is a goal of mine, but clearly I'm not 100% there yet.

   There is a price to be paid and a cost in effort required for whatever we do. I do see myself as a woman, Sophia, although I am still in the process of emerging. I have a great situation with my family, friends, and job. The cost of keeping that status quo is people around you always attaching the aspect of you being an ex-male to their view of you. It is certainly a spoiler to think they accept your true self only to have the slip up of 'he' interjected in the conversation. It takes effort to calm the thoughts of, "The 'he' comment is deep down how they see me."  It is not always a validating setup. The idea of living in nondisclosure full time has too great a cost and too much effort for me  personally. I might gain some validation from new people, but I would be miserable with the losses that would go with it.
   As of today I am two months away from shuffling the deck for me. I believe GCS will change the way I see things in big ways. Having never been through it, I can't say exactly how or to what extent, but I think I will see many things differently. The mere fact of removing a source of severe physical dysphoria will be a boost for my confidence. Maybe at that point, the need for external validation may not be as great and living with the verbal slip ups might be far easier to cope with. Still, I do really enjoy being perceived as natal born female over being seen as trans. When in the public, I would really love to pass as cis.
   Clara your last post of the different ways people change how they act toward you (when your history is known) is pretty enlightening. Thanks!
Moni

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 27, 2017, 06:17:10 PMI also don't think "editing" your past is a viable solution.. Sure, I will tell stories from my past, but correcting my name/gender is as far as the editing goes. Too much editing just turns it in to an often hard to remember lie.

Name and gender is usually all the translation that's required. 

I find, though, as I tell my stories and meander through my memories, that my experience of something from my past as filtered through my present perspective necessarily of the here and now isn't always the same as the experience I had way back when.  I just privilege the here and now.

I'm not insecure about it, don't think I've ever experienced the luxury(?) of feeling 'normal' in various contexts and not just this one, however I appreciate not all information needs to be volunteered to the whole world, and your social position depends on that fact. You tell people you are trans and it does change their perception, even if they accept you completely, even if it doesn't impact your friendship or relationship much. It makes a difference. A difference that doesn't help much beyond your private dealings any if you're trying to just go about a normal life.

After a life of suppression I can't say there isn't a certain desire not to "hide" anything as this can be unhealthy, but I also know throwing this information around won't serve me. I don't particularly want to get positions or make acquaintances purely because of it, or draw attention to it any more than I would any other medical condition. Being "economical" with the truth hasn't been difficult or detrimental.

Quote from: Clara Kay on April 27, 2017, 08:02:09 PMI have not made up my mind whether or not to continue with 'non-disclosure'.  It's something that I'm lucky enough to have as an option, but it is not an ideal way to live.  I'm sure that one day I'll be outed and the deception may not go over well with some friends.  Living an authentic life is a goal of mine, but clearly I'm not 100% there yet.

If your truth is that you're female, and that you really always have been... well, there are some narratives that some people would call "true" that really aren't at all.  In which case, you might consider those other narratives as the actual "deception" in your case. 

Depends on your frame of reference, your paradigm for understanding the world.

Quote from: HappyMoni on April 27, 2017, 09:23:14 PMThe cost of keeping that status quo is people around you always attaching the aspect of you being an ex-male to their view of you. It is certainly a spoiler to think they accept your true self only to have the slip up of 'he' interjected in the conversation. It takes effort to calm the thoughts of, "The 'he' comment is deep down how they see me."  It is not always a validating setup.

The idea of living in nondisclosure full time has too great a cost and too much effort for me  personally. I might gain some validation from new people, but I would be miserable with the losses that would go with it...

Moni, I lived a compartmentalized life for many years, and in fact still do -- it's not like I've abandoned my family, (though I have set some boundaries).  You don't have to give up everything to have experiences within the context of non-disclosure.  Assuming you get female gendering on first glance, all it takes is entering a new social milieu on your own.  Somewhere you've never been before.  It could be a Scrabble club, or volunteering at the food panty, it doesn't really matter. 

To share those experiences with the people still in your life, though, will take some active boundary-setting.  Make it clear what isn't acceptable, and be firm in enacting the appropriate consequences when the unacceptable happens.  For me, misgendering is unacceptable.  Because it induces dysphoria, which for me triggers suicidal tendencies.  Now, correcting someone at the grocery store just takes using my voice -- then it's perfectly clear I'm a woman.  So I'm not worried about anyone who's met me since transition.  Correcting someone from my past, though...

...well, that took taking a "time out" from their presence, of increasing duration, because I can't be in relationship with someone who misgenders me.  It was a consequence that had a profound effect on my parents and sister, who were deeply invested in not losing me.  So they changed.  And in so doing, they also helped me to recognize the gaps in my socialization and how to fill those gaps.  It's all good now. 

QuoteAs of today I am two months away from shuffling the deck for me. I believe GCS will change the way I see things in big ways. Having never been through it, I can't say exactly how or to what extent, but I think I will see many things differently. The mere fact of removing a source of severe physical dysphoria will be a boost for my confidence. Maybe at that point, the need for external validation may not be as great and living with the verbal slip ups might be far easier to cope with. Still, I do really enjoy being perceived as natal born female over being seen as trans. When in the public, I would really love to pass as cis.

You might find that bottom surgery eases your mind (for it should), but I found it didn't really change anything for me when it came to my social dysphoria. 

But then, again, for me, it was my social dysphoria that predominated.  Which is why my facial surgery was the "real" sex-reassignment surgery as far as I was concerned.  Obviously, not everyone has the same experience. 

I totally want and need to pass. I'm on Zukowski's table next month for the whole enchilada in hopes of achieving that exact dream. I've thought about it and decided I'm vain. I'm going to own that rather than deny it. It is what it is. But I also want to live a life with the "muggles" and be accepted into those clicks that probably would not otherwise let me in without their thinking I am a cis woman. So it's what I'm shooting for in effort to gain what I've always dreamt of. A life amongst women as just another woman.

 Evening folks,

  I have stayed away from this conversation from the start because I feel I am too new to this whole trans life and all of it's terms to give a valid comment. I can answer the basic question though I think. And the basic answer is that I do care what others think about me. That's the short answer.
  Trans or not I have always cared what others think about me and that has made me want to be a recluse all of my life. I have very few friends. I just did a mental count and I counted 11 people that I consider real friends. Those are the ones  I really worry whether they will accept me for who I think I am. I did not try to have them become friends they just did and they complicate my life. I try to be friendly enough to others but keep them at arms length. I am uncomfortable with closeness. I want to be liked and treated right. Other than that I am good with living in private. If I can get by in public without people knowing I'm trans or just being polite to me, I would be good with that. But I fear finding out and I fear the negative reactions. I could be happy living as a recluse, living as I want, dressed the way I want with very little interaction with others.
   This I think come from so many many years of being a closeted crossdresser, indulging and hiding my shameful activities from the world and feeling guilty for doing it. To be honest how can I expect others to accept me as a woman when I haven't been able to myself?  Let me do my thing and hide from the real world. As a recluse others can't hurt me. so yes I care what others may think of me. It scares the H*** s*** right out of me.

Laura or Jeanette or just someone without a clue
 

Wow, there's so much to mull over in this thread. For now I'll just put my own wants out there.

Yes I do care because I want to be me. I don't want to be sitting in a resturant eating and have some hillbilly in the next booth hold his phone up in the air and snap a picture of me. >:( Like I didn't see his arm raised 3 feet above the booth seat?! Dude came in with his wife so I don't know if I was the subject of "do you think that's a trans?" or just some funny thing to send to a hillbilly friend. It happened so fast that I started to doubt what I had seen happen so I did nothing about it.

Here's the thing too, I did have boot cut jeans on but otherwise I only have longer hair and stud earrings. Maybe I should take it as some kind of compliment. Perhaps I look more feminine than I believe I do.

Anyway, someday I want to pass. I want to just be me and not have these things happen. Will that point be reachable? Maybe, time will tell.

Quote from: JeanetteLW on April 27, 2017, 11:06:29 PM
Evening folks,

  I have stayed away from this conversation from the start because I feel I am too new to this whole trans life and all of it's terms to give a valid comment. I can answer the basic question though I think. And the basic answer is that I do care what others think about me. That's the short answer.
  Trans or not I have always cared what others think about me and that has made me want to be a recluse all of my life. I have very few friends. I just did a mental count and I counted 11 people that I consider real friends. Those are the ones  I really worry whether they will accept me for who I think I am. I did not try to have them become friends they just did and they complicate my life. I try to be friendly enough to others but keep them at arms length. I am uncomfortable with closeness. I want to be liked and treated right. Other than that I am good with living in private. If I can get by in public without people knowing I'm trans or just being polite to me, I would be good with that. But I fear finding out and I fear the negative reactions. I could be happy living as a recluse, living as I want, dressed the way I want with very little interaction with others.
   This I think come from so many many years of being a closeted crossdresser, indulging and hiding my shameful activities from the world and feeling guilty for doing it. To be honest how can I expect others to accept me as a woman when I haven't been able to myself?  Let me do my thing and hide from the real world. As a recluse others can't hurt me. so yes I care what other may think of me. It scares the H*** s*** right out of me.

Laura or Jeanette or just someone without a clue

I think it possible that once you experience being perceived as female, your acceptance of being reclusive may change. Two years ago I was where you are with regard to being out in public. It scared the hell out of me. When you get out more it is less scary. It really shocked me how much I loved being regarded as female. I hadn't recognized my social dysphoria. It just makes the world seem right to be gendered correctly, viewed as female. When I think back to having to hide in a room in my own house, I get anxiety. When you experience the world as Jeanette, you will never be able to bottle it up again, I think. My first thought of transition was getting some hormones to secretly change my body. Once I opened my mind to taking a step, it very quickly became necessary to go further and further until full transition was a must. I guess my point is never underestimate the hunger of the trans beast. The only thing, if you are trans, that can hold it back is fear. It is the other major power when it comes to being trans. I was so eaten up with fear in my life that I couldn't take  it any more. The need to be genuine finally became stronger than the fear holding it back.
    I am kind of early in my journey still. I don't know where it will end, what I need to do to attain "oneness." Can it happen with just some parts of my life free of the trans label? I started this thread thinking that the strongest people are the ones who don't care if they are seen as trans. They are either strong or because of physical features have no choice but to be seen as trans. Either way, they must be strong. I also know that the people who live the closed narrative (to borrow a phrase) must also be strong, mentally disciplined, I think. From viewing all of these great posts, there are no bests ways, only ways to go to fit the individual. I think these things unfold as we go. The more we experience, the more we know what we need. Probably everyone on here wants to pass (more importantly, be perceived as who they are.) What distance away  from that optimal  place do we find tolerable?
Moni

Hi Moni,

Thanks for the thread; it had been generating some great dialog.

Yes, I do care about what people think about me but not necessarily around my transgender nature. At home everyone knows my story and they either stay away from me or respect me as a friend. Many times my transitioning is a topic that I bring up to discuss troubles or opportunities in life and it is most often a positive contributor to helping struggling friends or at least making new ones by showing that we all have differences both hard ones and easy ones. This past week my wife and I are on the road, currently in Tucson, AZ. We are staying at a bed and breakfast with three other couples. We have been having dialog with them as well as with many other people in town and neither my wife nor I have noticed any indicators that we have been read. We are being treated as what we are, a couple of eccentric crazy older ladies enjoying themselves traveling. Well I both love it and am a bit bothered by it. It is great to be flying stealth; telling stories at breakfast, talking with sales associates at fun boutiques, asking directions from the bus driver, etc. But I am transgender and in the middle of transitioning. Keeping stealth is also keeping a big part of me out of the dialog and, to some extent, limiting where our conversations can go to and it almost certainly limits our ability to educate those around us about the diversity that is so much a part of our lives.

So yes, passing and being seen as cis is really neat, being me and open to sharing heart stories of life is something that I would miss if it went away.

By the way, prior to realizing my transgender nature two years ago I was extremely introverted, since transitioning I have begun to enjoy an extroverted side of life.

Anne

Very interesting thread with lots of thoughts and wonderful dialogue. I also care what others think of me but in a entirely different view. I am now starting my ninth month of HRT but will not be socially transitioning because of what others think of me. I accepted myself as trans two years ago after battling the transbeast for over sixty years and came out to my wife one year ago. She has accepted me as who I am and accepted my need for HRT but I am honoring her wish's to continue to present as male socially. When coming out to her I could see the pain that it caused her and realized that it would do the same to my kids and grandkids so the decision to not fully transition is based on that knowledge. Caring for her thoughts and of my family are most important to me and to cause them undue pain is not something that I want to be a part of. After nine months of HRT I am realizing the mental and physical changes that are a part of the transition that one experiences. The mental changes have been most welcome with the anger and bitterness becoming for the most part a thing of my past, the feeling of my mind and body finally aligning as one mentally and physically as they should always have been is most rewarding. Given the opportunity to live as who I have always been would be wonderful, but I know that it is not something possible. I am guessing that there are many others in our community in the same position as I am and we all care what people think of us. All of us no matter how we are living our lives need acceptance in our daily life, it is a part of our being. How we choose to live and receive that acceptance in one form or another makes us who we are.

Quote from: Anne Blake on April 28, 2017, 07:50:21 PM
Well I both love it and am a bit bothered by it. It is great to be flying stealth; telling stories at breakfast, talking with sales associates at fun boutiques, asking directions from the bus driver, etc. But I am transgender and in the middle of transitioning. Keeping stealth is also keeping a big part of me out of the dialog and, to some extent, limiting where our conversations can go to and it almost certainly limits our ability to educate those around us about the diversity that is so much a part of our lives.

This got me thinking:
Telling one's story is a basic part of being human.  It's why we have a project of western literature.  I have heard it said that people are just basically a story wrapped in skin.  When we have to edit our story in order to fit a non disclosure narrative that suggests that we are different.  The very fact that we feel a need to edit our narrative is evidence of that difference. An acceptance of it.  Ironically, in attempting to remove ourselves from trans space we are entering into the center of it. Our need to elide, edit, conceal our story in order to fit more cleanly into cis space is understandable given the burdens of disclosure.  The transphobia and the attitude in cis space that what we are doing is wrong, deeply upsetting, perverse.  The ultimate taboo.  And in many settings an invitation to violence against us.  An edited narrative for the purpose of trying to avoid that pain is totally understandable.  Also, why not partake in the pure joy of being accepted as a woman among women.  We certainly deserve it after the ordeal we've been thru.

But it is a very trans thing.  Quintessentially trans.

While the great storytellers of the past draw upon their struggles to make their story fit into a universal struggle for acceptance and synthesis with a universal truth of being human.  We edit.  Sort of like Odysseus eliding the Trojan war from his epic.  To feel a need to conceal the very thing that most makes an interesting character interesting.  Mmmmmm.  Very trans.

I mean just go to an AA meeting and try to find people who don't want to talk about their lost years as drunks.  Just try. You will not be successful.

Denying ourselves what every cis person takes for granted on a daily basis, i.e., the ability to strive to tell our own unique and true story and share it with our community, to weave our past into our present in one's unique narrative in an attempt to find unity with our past and present without having a ton of bricks fall on one's head is a very trans thing.

Yes, non-disclosure does mean giving up something in order to get something.  I as see it, though, I'm not giving up much, while gaining a lot.

It might be just me, but my distant past is not a place where I want to spend much time.  To a large degree the past belongs to someone who is no more -- another person, a man, someone I knew very well, but not the person I am today.

If I miss anything, it's the many years I didn't experience as my real self, a girl, a young woman, a middle age woman.  That missing past is a huge void that I cannot fill.  It's a hole that I cannot draw upon the way others do.  I have no choice.

Filling that gap with memories and stories of that lost friend is not something I want others to know me by.  I'm creating a new past with each successive day that I live.  It's incredibly exciting.  It has injected new energy and wonder into my life, something that was fast disappearing in the years leading up to my decision to free myself from the charade I was so unsatisfyingly invested in.

I don't suppose others feel as I do.  I've always been future oriented.  Maybe that nature helped me cope with the present day stress and anxiety of life that was my gender dysphoria.  The fact is, even when I'm in the company of people who know my past, I rarely bring up my former life.  I find it hard to put myself back into the shoes of a person I no longer identify as.  I refuse to rest on my laurels, or rely on past accomplishments to prove myself. 

Having said that, I still benefit from my past experiences, my education, my travels, my skills, etc. none of which are firmly linked to my former gender identity.  If others sense that I'm reluctant to say more about my past, it could be that my being in a same-sex relationship means that others respect my desire to keep certain aspect of my past private. 

So living with non-disclosure is not burden for me.  In many ways it has helped me to progress in this final stage of my transition during which I hope to become a woman inside and out.

Quote from: Jane Emily on May 01, 2017, 12:07:32 AMI have heard it said that people are just basically a story wrapped in skin.  When we have to edit our story in order to fit a non disclosure narrative that suggests that we are different.  The very fact that we feel a need to edit our narrative is evidence of that difference. An acceptance of it.  Ironically, in attempting to remove ourselves from trans space we are entering into the center of it. Our need to elide, edit, conceal our story in order to fit more cleanly into cis space is understandable given the burdens of disclosure.  The transphobia and the attitude in cis space that what we are doing is wrong, deeply upsetting, perverse.  The ultimate taboo.  And in many settings an invitation to violence against us.  An edited narrative for the purpose of trying to avoid that pain is totally understandable.  Also, why not partake in the pure joy of being accepted as a woman among women.  We certainly deserve it after the ordeal we've been thru.

But it is a very trans thing.  Quintessentially trans.

The point is not to deny ourselves, to edit or elide.  Because people don't have gaping holes in their narratives.

The point is to realize that we were always female.  (Or male, going the other direction.)  It's the final step in the journey -- there never was a gate.  And once that realization is, well, realized... then there are no more narrative issues.  There's just translation... a translation that's predicated on a greater truth. 

If anything, what's "quintessentially trans" is the trans narrative itself.  After all, without that narrative, there's no physical transition -- no hormones, no surgeries -- and there's no social transition, no impetus for anyone to gender you differently than how they have previously.  It'd be nice if there was an "instant pill" that also worked on everyone else's memories of you (including your own memories) but there isn't.   

But for many of us, the "essence" of who we are isn't the temporary experience of transition, or years of GD, but simply having an identity that's firmly on one side of the binary or the other, an identity that was always so.  And when that's the case, then there's a choice to make, of whether to honor that truth and all that truth implies or to privilege the trans narrative.  There's no right or wrong choice to make, but there are consequences of unhappiness for choosing against one's personal truth, regardless of what that truth is. 

So, telling the story of me and my sister, for example.  I'm less than a year older than her, and when we were growing up, as her older sister I was expected to look after her, to make sure she had an easier path through school, and so on.  And this was fine.  We still had an awful lot of fun together, mostly playing dolls and stuffed animals and riding our bikes around the neighborhood.  People would mistake us for twins (usually Irish twins).  But I still kind of relished the responsibility, because it made me feel important.

But then something happened that irrevocably changed our relationship -- we grew up.  And specifically, her puberty started before mine.  Crazy, right?  Suddenly she was the one who knew more than me, and I... I didn't like that!  Our roles were reversed, and unfortunately I was so immature that I became resentful and pulled away from her.  I just couldn't deal with her having an experience that I hadn't had first, especially one that I thought was so important as that, even though it really wasn't. 

We still have a nice relationship today, and enjoy each others' company when we get together, but I wouldn't call it close -- we don't talk on the phone every week or anything, you know. Instead, we both get the regular emotional support we need from our Mom.  I hope if this will change when Mom passes away... because I regret the distance I have with my sister, and maybe we'll recapture the closeness we enjoyed when we were little girls at some point in our lives, because we'll truly need each other.

That's the kind of understanding of who I really was when I was growing up that I didn't enjoy back then, not to mention an understanding of who I am now.

Remember, the past no longer exists, and the future has yet to be.  There's only one moment that really exists, and that moment is the present. 

Quote from: Clara Kay on May 01, 2017, 01:30:14 AMIf I miss anything, it's the many years I didn't experience as my real self, a girl, a young woman, a middle age woman.  That missing past is a huge void that I cannot fill.  It's a hole that I cannot draw upon the way others do.  I have no choice.

Filling that gap with memories and stories of that lost friend is not something I want others to know me by.  I'm creating a new past with each successive day that I live.  It's incredibly exciting. 

This has been true for me -- the longer I've spent living my life in harmony with my personal truth, the more my memories (the "past") have come to reflect that personal truth as well.  It's been incredibly liberating for me. 

And as it turns out, I've discovered that my past was never missing at all, never a "void" -- because it was always me processing the events around me, learning what I needed to learn, and then translating it to a reality that didn't conform to my personal truth, but instead exercised great power over me. 

So really, through transsexing -- and I just realized this just now -- there's not even a "translation" of the past, but rather an undoing of the inaccurate translations of yesteryear. 

Monica, this is a good thread. I thought about it for a day or two before answering.

There is a book from Kate Bornstein called My gender Workbook. It talks a lot about the gender triangle and address your thoughts very well. There is a lot more in our culture than I though about that is not only about being male but being white and tall.

I would have loved to have been correctly gendered today. Only two people called me Miss and the rest gendered me sir. Although several did not address me as miss or sir so I could count that as Miss. No one said anything although I received looks everywhere I went by at lease one or two people. I am in Miami and flew in this morning. I used the woman's room in Philly and Miami. I got a few looks but there were no comments. No one refused to serve me or gave me a hard time. I am an extremely polite and a quiet person and if something was said or if I was not provided service I would not have said anything or caused an issue. I really dislike any conflict whatsoever.

I have lost some privilege at work in the eyes of my supervisor. Before I came out a few years ago I was put on an interdisciplinary team for a project called ESPI by our COO. I am working with some of the smartest persons in their fields. I wonder if I would have been put on the committee if I had come out earlier.

I want so much to just blend in but I do not think this will happen. I will look better and feel better about myself but the reality is I have had to accept I will never pass. I was using my voice techniques today, even on the phone. That did not help. I have not mastered my voice and it has an impact.

I understand your apprehension about not passing and not having female privilege.

   I went out to the store tonight. I  was shopping for something comfy to wear should GCS happen like I hope. As I walked around, I wanted to be so convincing that no one would give me a second thought. That would allow me to relax in just being me. I thought that if I were walking around holding the hand of a guy, I would be much less likely to be questioned. When I walk with my female partner I am a little taller, bigger boned, smaller butt, less naturally female looking.  For a lot of reasons, being with my partner makes me less likely to pass then me being with a guy.  So, on one hand, I am intensely driven to be perceived as my true female self. It is one of the most driving things I have ever dealt with. On the other hand, I love my partner. I want to be with her. We have so much history, and she is by far my best friend. This may not be the perfect example, but it made me think that there are no choices without consequences.
   Legitimacy is in our own heads. Clara passes well. Rachel posted that she feels she doesn't. Denni says she will not socially transition. It is possible that someone who passes well could have less self legitimacy than  someone who doesn't pass or who doesn't transition at  all. Somehow we have to find our own individual peace and self satisfaction. I am in the middle of trans mania. I've gone full time within the past year. I am making so many adjustments. I am trying to figure out my new brain with all the old living situations. I am deep in the process like so many others here. I am trying to understand what I need to find my ultimate happy place. I listen to those like Sophia who are so much more evolved than I am. To me, the important thing is not so much how her happy place is configured. It is that that happy place is possible. Anyone who reads this thread who is struggling to find themselves can look to those who are self legitimized and know it can happen. It makes me hopeful.
Moni
One more thought! I like the idea that Anne brought up about telling our story. We are in a time where trans people are oppressed. I am thankful to those who are visible and vocal. I don't think that is necessary for everyone to be out there visibly like that. The thing is, anyone we can educate helps the situation of all of us, right? I take a little pride in changing attitudes at my work. I have been through my personal dysphoric hell in my life. If I can help reassure or assist any other trans person, it makes my past a little more purposeful, easier to accept. Hope this isn't too soapboxy.

Moni, I can so relate to your situation, even though I'm further along than you.  From the moment the thought of transition seriously entered my mind, I questioned whether, no I feared, I would never be able to pass.  I never wanted to be trans.  I hated the idea of living out my life as an exception.  For once I wanted to look at my reflection and not turn away with pain in my heart.

If I pass today, it's because I've worked so hard at it.  And, you know, I still work hard at it.  It is important to me, and probably always will be.  I wish I didn't care so much.  I have trans friends who don't make it a top priority and get by just fine. 

Some of my cis girl friends have long since given up trying to impress people.  It's so maddening that even without makeup, wearing just a sweat shirt and some pants, and a quick brush through their hair, no one ever misgenders them. 

Most trans women have the potential to pass, but they don't because they make mistakes in their presentation that draw attention to their masculine features.  And, for one reason or another, their friends don't feel they can make suggestions for improvement.   

Some masculine features simply cannot be erased.  I have big hands, an inheritance from my mother.  No one ever misgendered her because of her large hands.   She had enough feminine characteristics to tip the gender balance her way.  It's the same with height, shoulder and hip width, and shoe size.  There are ways to de-emphasize these features.

I'll tell you what changed my world for the better.  It was facial feminization surgery and voice training.  When I nailed those two, passing became possible.  And with passing came self-confidence like I'd never felt before.

Quote from: HappyMoni on May 01, 2017, 09:49:24 PMI thought that if I were walking around holding the hand of a guy, I would be much less likely to be questioned. When I walk with my female partner I am a little taller, bigger boned, smaller butt, less naturally female looking.  For a lot of reasons, being with my partner makes me less likely to pass then me being with a guy.  So, on the one hand, I am intensely driven to be perceived as my true female self. It is one of the most driving things I have ever dealt with. On the other hand, I love my partner. I want to be with her.

That's quite the stark realization.

QuoteI am thankful to those who are visible and vocal. I don't think that is necessary for everyone to be out there visibly like that. The thing is, anyone we can educate helps the situation of all of us, right? I take a little pride in changing attitudes at my work. I have been through my personal dysphoric hell in my life. If I can help reassure or assist any other trans person, it makes my past a little more purposeful, easier to accept. Hope this isn't too soapboxy.

It isn't necessary for everyone to take one path or the other -- it really wouldn't be much of a choice if it were, would it?  But here's the thing -- enmeshing one's self in a social milieu of non-disclosure for one's own personal healing is not mutually exclusive of helping out others who've suffered in the same way we have. 

Quote from: Clara Kay on May 02, 2017, 12:59:20 AMSome of my cis girl friends have long since given up trying to impress people.  It's so maddening that even without makeup, wearing just a sweat shirt and some pants, and a quick brush through their hair, no one ever misgenders them.

There's a real freedom to rolling out of bed, hair askew and makeup washed off, to make breakfast for your lover.  And there's no misgendering, no questions.  Women aren't always "on" -- because no one can be "on" all the time.  So what does it really take to elicit female gendering all the time?

QuoteI'll tell you what changed my world for the better.  It was facial feminization surgery and voice training.  When I nailed those two, passing became possible.  And with passing came self-confidence like I'd never felt before.

To this I'd also add facial hair removal, but yeah.  It's pretty basic.

Finding our voices is so, so important.  And so, so hard.  The other stuff, zapping and surgery, it just takes time and money; other people are still doing the work.  Voice, though, even with voice surgery (I'm still not impressed with the results overall) takes actual work.  Raising pitch and establishing good resonance is difficult enough, but then there's the matter of modulating our speaking patterns (being more "musical" and less "monotone") and then there's still the matter of learning what to say, and when, and why.   

Being early in my transition I sort of have to set aside the worry of what people think about me just to come out and challenge my fears and social conditioning. I think the further I get on with my transition the more I'll begin to care about passing or not.
There's only so much I can take on at one time. I have to look at my situation as it is now and trust that the future will take care of itself if lay good foundations. For me it's more of a gradual acceptance over a binary "I don't care/do care" argument that can only grow with experience, time and a little medical intervention.
One day I just want to wake up and not think about gender at all, then have that day turn into a week and that week into the rest of my life :D

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

Quote from: Shy on May 05, 2017, 05:31:12 PM
Being early in my transition I sort of have to set aside the worry of what people think about me just to come out and challenge my fears and social conditioning. I think the further I get on with my transition the more I'll begin to care about passing or not.
There's only so much I can take on at one time. I have to look at my situation as it is now and trust that the future will take care of itself if lay good foundations. For me it's more of a gradual acceptance over a binary "I don't care/do care" argument that can only grow with experience, time and a little medical intervention.
One day I just want to wake up and not think about gender at all, then have that day turn into a week and that week into the rest of my life :D

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

Sadie, that sounds like a wise approach. You are right, there is only so much to take on at one time. The not caring what people think is easier said than done  once you get a little further down the road. After you invest a lot of time and effort into presenting better, it can be disheartening to be mischaracterized by someone. I have times where I don't care. Then there are times it hits like a ton of bricks. I hope to evolve in physical appearance, but more importantly, like you said, evolve in the mental aspects as well. Good luck to you!
Moni

I try and not let people or things bother me when I am out, I don't know wether I pass necessarily or that people don't care but I don't usually get any hassle. It is a bit depressing to be getting looks after making such an effort. I try not to notice any of it and just go about my business. Sometimes if I let it bother me, it feels almost like it has a cumulative effect and if I keep detecting people staring at me, after awhile I start to doubt myself and begin to feel uncomfortable.

As my self confidence and acceptance has grown I am less inclined to look for people staring or even notice if they are.

But I am certainly not immune to the constant barrage of signals

Quote from: Dena on April 25, 2017, 06:16:59 PM
I am an introvert and as such, I don't really need other peoples approval. When it comes to passing, others can take me or leave me as long as they aren't rude to me. I understand that introverts are relatively rare and it's far better to have and enjoy social connections. I suspect part of the reason I developed as an introvert is so much of my life I have had to solve all my problems myself so I never shared much of myself. Possibly I am an endangered species but that would be a good thing.

From what I've read, introverts make up around 40% of the population. Not endangered but not most either. I'm an introvert too, but can take people in limited doses. What happens is that I'll spend a lot of time alone at work and then I'll crave some interaction and shortly after I'll have had enough. I could never do sales or a job where I had to deal with people all the time. It would be mentally and emotionally draining . On the Myers Briggs inventory, I'm an ISTP.


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Wow so many interesting and honest perspectives. I love it!

For me personally since the age of 13 I have presented outwardly and openly as a gay male so for me I had already accepted a long time ago that I was going to be on the "outside". When I transitioned to transitioning it was surprisingly a painless process because I had already surrounded myself with LGBT+ positive people.

That being said I had no real understanding that as a gay male I was able to fly under the radar and present as a cis, straight, white male if I had to. Now as a trans woman there have been so many times in which I think maybe I should pack some male clothes in my bag just in case I don't pass.

Honestly my greatest anxiety does not come from judgement or from awkward encounters. It comes from a genuine fear of being in physical danger. As a man I could lower my voice and change my stance to protect myself and now there's not hiding my vulnerabilities.

Anyways just sharing my thoughts. Much love <3

I think wanting to be considered cis if completely fine. I've been passing for some time now, and I got rid of most of my fears by telling myself that X thing happens even to cis girls. At first I was afraid of showing my wide, muscular shoulders, but I'm comfortable with doing it now. My muscle mass has considerably reduced, but I still have wide, toned shoulders. And that's fine, because there are cid women with wide and muscular shoulders.

After some time as full time female, I realized I didn't care about how people saw me, I was happy with being not male, or at least not the stereotypical macho I acted like before. Most of the time people treat me as a woman, but there are exceptions. Even some classmates that knew me before still treat me as a male. I didn't bother explaining them about my transition, and I'm fine with them caling me by my old name, even tough I love my new one. I even enjoy when people can't tell wheather I'm a male or female. I think I have the "what other think" part covered.

That doesn't mean I hide the fact that I'm trans. I just don't yell it all the time. Unless you ask, I won't say anything. Not because I'm ashamed, or afraid of what they think of me, but because it's not the most important thing about me. It doesn't define me completely.

I don't want to talk about trans stuff all the day, nor I want to be treated specially just because I'm trans. You don't need to say I have ovaries just because I don't like my genitals. I don't mind if people I trust make jokes about that, actually I make a lot of them.

Being called trans is fine for me, as it also is being trated as a completely normal cis girl. I just don't want the fact that I'm trans to be the most trascendental thing of my life. The word trans is not in my presentation card, and if I ever become famous I'd hate that "trans" was writen before "artist" or "musician" in my wikipedia page.

It has been a while since I've read this thread and I have to admit I was hurt.

Hurt deeply.

Quote from Kelly
I live in the same city as Cindy, but there's probably about a 20 year difference in our ages. She appears as a fairly normal older woman.

Since when have I been normal sweetheart! :laugh:
(must catch up if you are back in Adelaide Hon)

I was also interested in Elizabeth's comments as we caught up for coffee yesterday and she has changed so much over the time that I have known her that there is no doubt in my eyes that she is 'just another woman', well maybe a rather wonderful one as is Kelly BTW :-*

Of course, we do not see the changes, we see our past, our mirror image. That is how our brains, all human brains are programmed.

Why do we look at self portraits with such interest?
An artist produces a feeling of a representation. When we look at a self portrait of an artist we see how much of that feeling and our perception of it is different (to theirs).
Let me expand.

Have someone draw a cartoon of you.

Cartoonist emphasise features and usually to the grotesque. "I don't look like that!." Have someone paint a portrait or take a candid photo portrait - "I don't look like that"!
The results say you do to others.

I read so many FFS posts where people want changes that for them are of critical importance and I struggle to see why. Sure the surgeons will agree and their clinics will often suggest additional procedures to improve the look. And yes the results can be stunning and thankfully usually are - but do you look like a normal woman or an idealised sculpture of one? As long as you are happy great but if you are unhappy where do you go? Usually it then involves the blame game and the image of the cartoonist seems to be prevalent in your mind and maybe not the image of how you look in life.

Let us expand the discussion. The emphasis seems to be, as ever, on 'passing',  and as a fairly weird older woman I've never been sure what that means and to explain that I want you to think about something.

Many of you may have had children. As a parent did any of you look at your much loved child and think - they need surgery to pass? No I don't mean corrective surgery for bat-ears or clefts or whatever.  Facial reconstruction so your daughter would 'pass better'. "My daughter pass!!! But she is female." Sure and no doubt lovely, and she is. She is the most lovely child of yours, she is perfect.

No she isn't.

There are people who are more lovely. There are people who have a better nose, forehead, lip, cheek. Oh you know where I'm at.

You have a son. He, no doubt is gorgeous. A bundle of love and work and a child. Doesn't look too manly though. Not sure if he will pass. "What" My son. He is a guy, of course he passes. Ye but he doesn't look like Brad, his chin could be more square and well he looks - well you know; but he is playing footy and will get a few scars and he's a nice lad.

Maybe he isn't.

Think about those paragraphs.

Quote from: Cindy on August 03, 2017, 04:30:12 AM
Quote from Kelly
I live in the same city as Cindy, but there's probably about a 20 year difference in our ages. She appears as a fairly normal older woman.

Since when have I been normal sweetheart! :laugh:
(must catch up if you are back in Adelaide Hon)

I meant "normal" in looks.. Unlike me, who is obviously trans.

If it helps Cindy, I have always thought of you as normally abnormal. I mean look at what time you posted that last post, it's like you're on the other side of the world  or something. Pretty weird!

I recently have been catching a glance in the mirror and my impression is more of seeing a female. With rare exceptions, I think it is a process we go through to see who we think we are in that mirror. It doesn't happen all at once obviously. We present as one gender and then switch. How can there not be an adjustment? Of course there is. But, like you say, when we don't adjust, when we aren't ever self accepting, it is perhaps the mental aspect that is the issue, not the physical.
Moni