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I feel like I get overwhelmed sometimes by Christian influence and messages. I feel more agnostic. I don't really want to believe all the time, but the influence of religion is too overpowering and I get stress from it.

I also have that common fear of hell. I don't obsess about it all the time, but I'm still not thoroughly convinced that it doesn't exist. All the bible prophecies coming out now about the apocalypse trigger me also. I don't really look much forward to Jesus' return immediately. Why can't he spare us 50 more years on earth, at least?  Why does Christianity dare think we are all born to be selfish? I feel like God is "talking" to me about predictions that I don't want to hear lately.

The big problem with religion is the people who believe it.  Accept that all religion is delusion and you'll be able to ignore that nonsense.  However, that still leaves the problem of the religious who feel they have a right or duty to impose their beliefs on you.  The more you're able to ignore them, the better.  Don't forget, the whole concept of "hell" is a religious construction that has no basis in reality, but is a means of control.

Quote from: redhot1 on April 30, 2017, 12:37:59 PM

I also have that common fear of hell. I don't obsess about it all the time, but I'm still not thoroughly convinced that it doesn't exist.

Thanks for posting this instead of just stewing! If it makes you feel better, the concepts behind hell have been seriously exaggerated over time. the bible itself when talking about the fate of the dead is usually very poetic with it's use of metaphor, but here are some scripture that I personally find more hopeful;

Acts 24:15 says that "there is to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous." this is important because God isn't looking for an excuse to get rid  of anyone, but that he's looking for any excuse to save people.

Psalm 146:4 says that "on the day of a person's death his thoughts perish" not happy though, but it's hardly eternal torment, and in fact what scriptures do talk about fiery death will often talk about how "it had never come to Gods mind."

anyway I hope you take this in the spirit it was intended, not to stress you out more but hopefully ease your nerves a little. also whether there's life after death or not, we all derp up and are only doing the best we can. anyone who judges someone else for how they get by is doing something worse then anything you're doing ;)


edited because I'm fowl mouthed xD

The resurrection of the just and unjust doesn't mean everyone is saved. The unjust perish while the just has eternal life. I follow the bible not religon for religon is man's control over their congregations and I know the bible better then any preacher that's for sure.

No, I just ignore them for the nonsense they are.

Both Christian, as well as Atheist messages can be disturbing, depending on the spin of the author(s). People have the right to believe whatever they want to, and many attempt to force those beliefs down the throats of everyone else. Radical extremism of any religious sect can be detrimental to civilized society, as history has demonstrated multitudes of times.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 08, 2017, 12:32:35 PM
The resurrection of the just and unjust doesn't mean everyone is saved. The unjust perish while the just has eternal life. I follow the bible not religon for religon is man's control over their congregations and I know the bible better then any preacher that's for sure.

I get what you're saying, I'm just trying to be positive you know?

I encourage you to look at more "liberal" Christian doctrines that questions not only literal translations of scripture but also, but the existence of a literal hell itself. There are a lot of passages that talk about things like Gehenna (the garbage valley outside Jerusalem and it really was on fire all the time), the concept of Hades introduced from Romanism, and whether hell itself is both metaphorical and describes a life not lived in the love of God as a life that is truly hellish.

Would a compassionate God condemn anyone to an eternity of suffering for a series of choices made in less than 100 years? Valid question. God loves everyone and wants everyone to come to him and not perish. Does God actually get what he wants? If not, than why given the fact he is omnipotent? Is Christ the ultimate payment for a sinful humanity and does everyone benefit from his sacrifice? Is the story of the Garden literal or metaphorical?

Religion is designed to be divisive because when you have an us vs. them it makes controlling people potentially easier. Is faith in the one God really that way?

Many also believe in annihilationism where the gift of eternal life is truly a gift. All others are destroyed as several scriptures say. That seems logically a lot more loving then even the Dante's version of Hell.

I went to a funeral today, and there were a lot of songs, prayers, and speechifying involving the cross and crucifixion. Now, I understand what Christians believe about all that stuff, but the more time I spend outside that faith the more sickening the messaging and such becomes. And it is completely pervasive where I live.

Like, I'm sorry, but such a heavy focus on torture devices and martyrdom is just not a healthy mindset, in my opinion. If someone gets something out of Christianity, through belief or simply community or whatever else they may find in it, then I'm really glad. Whatever floats your spiritual boat, knowhatimean?

But it'd be nice to not have to sit through 20 minutes of such disturbing messaging and imagery when I'm trying to say goodbye to someone.

Look, I was raised going to church every week. I married the ministers daughter.. I got very heavily involved with the church because of this.

What I took away from it all was this:
Being a minister is a job like any other and every minister will put there own personal values into there sermons.

A lot of people go to church simply for the social aspect

A lot of Christians don't practice what they preach

But most of all, religion is what you make of it, and really you should have your own interpretations, opinions and you don't have to believe it in exactly the same way as the person next to you.

I agree with a post above about the more liberal doctrine, after reading the bible from back to front on more then one occasion I realised that it's all about interpretation and who really knows which group got it right.


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I don't know if anyone else can relate, but the parts from the Bible that affect me the most are the scary parts. If there is an afterlife, it's worse than just dying because of the prospect of suffering in hell forever.

The problem with the bible it's a book of roots and promises to Israel the family of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob and we outsiders try to make a religon of it. When actually the bible shows us a way of life if we obey from the heart level and not that we are forced to serve. This is why we have freewill we can choose to serve the God of Abraham or we can serve Moloch the gods of the nations.

I'm agnostic (which actually means the answer is unknowable). I ponder reality and our Universe, but I don't worry about it. I don't believe in an afterlife, but I also don't think we are totally gone either. Reincarnation seems plausible based on the evidence.

Since I was a young child I have rejected religion. It never made any sense and seems to cause too many problems, way more than it fixes. It actually fixes nothing. Besides wars and hatred, you have people worrying about who they can love and what they can think. It's brainwashing and based in fear that a loving god would punish you. Yet the same god allows millions of people die every year.

Just be a good person. Try to help other living things and be good to the planet. Don't kill any living things!

And ignore the Bible and other holy books. They just were written by people. Maybe they had good intentions, but as with religious people today, they mostly want to control people and hold back progress. It's all a bunch of fairy tales really.


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Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 12, 2017, 01:39:26 AM
The problem with the bible it's a book of roots and promises to Israel the family of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob and we outsiders try to make a religon of it. When actually the bible shows us a way of life if we obey from the heart level and not that we are forced to serve. This is why we have freewill we can choose to serve the God of Abraham or we can serve Moloch the gods of the nations.

It's actually a collection of books. The church decided which ones they wanted to include. They removed some and heavily edited others. None were written in the time of the events they are writing about.

Also there is no historical evidence that the Jesus written about ever lived. But he seems to be based on one or two people from that time. He was chosen by the church and basically they fabricated a composite person. 


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Quote from: RavenMoon on May 12, 2017, 05:29:28 PM
It's actually a collection of books. The church decided which ones they wanted to include. They removed some and heavily edited others. None were written in the time of the events they are writing about.

Also there is no historical evidence that the Jesus written about ever lived. But he seems to be based on one or two people from that time. He was chosen by the church and basically they fabricated a composite person. 


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That's because his name isn't Jesus,the current form of Jesus has only been in use since 1826. His name is Yehoshua son of Yosef/Joshua son of Joseph. The Constantine council decided to use a pagan name in place of the true messiah to entice more pagans into the church, Just like the pagan festivals instituted n y Rome to entice pagans and to cater to pagans. Those collections of books were all written by the house of Israel. Like I said the bible is a message to the house of Israel that was made into a religon.

Jesus is simply the angicanized pronunciation of the Greek, IESOUS (Ιεσους).  It was spelled that way in the New Testament, written in Greek, and pre-dated Constantine by over 250 years.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Deborah on May 14, 2017, 06:35:22 AM
Jesus is simply the angicanized pronunciation of the Greek, IESOUS (Ιεσους).  It was spelled that way in the New Testament, written in Greek, and pre-dated Constantine by over 250 years.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Ieosus is Joshua in Latin,Iesus is where they created the name of Jesus by dropping a O. His actual English name is Joshua.

I'm a bible scholar and teacher of you are wondering.

In the Latin Vulgate the name is spelled Jesum.  In the Greek NT it is Ἰησοῦς.  Neither is pronounced as Yeshua.  This is not a conspiracy.  Word pronunciation changes as it moves from one language to another.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Deborah on May 14, 2017, 11:25:29 AM
In the Latin Vulgate the name is spelled Jesum.  In the Greek NT it is Ἰησοῦς.  Neither is pronounced as Yeshua.  This is not a conspiracy.  Word pronunciation changes as it moves from one language to another.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Its spelled iesus in my Latin vulgate and Ieosus is Joshua,my old English kjv makes the correction from Jesus to Joshua..Yehoshua is Joshua in every language on this planet with different variations of spelling. I have made a enemy of Christian preachers for they admit to teaching a fake savour for a paycheck for teaching the true savour would not be worthwhile for it leads on to poverty...I know that's why I live on the fringes of society and not welcome in any church outside of a messianic one and still probably be showed the door for the truth doesn't sell but a lie is profit ask Joel olsteen or Joyce Myer or Benny hinn all selling a fake savour for wealth. In a bible scholar and historian which means I done my homework...


P.S. I grew up a staunch Lutheran til I was showed the door.

P.S.S. I'm not trying to be argumentative in any way...I have a problem with errors which is a part of my problem and that's one reason for no friends....

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 14, 2017, 05:14:52 AM
That's because his name isn't Jesus,the current form of Jesus has only been in use since 1826. His name is Yehoshua son of Yosef/Joshua son of Joseph. The Constantine council decided to use a pagan name in place of the true messiah to entice more pagans into the church, Just like the pagan festivals instituted n y Rome to entice pagans and to cater to pagans. Those collections of books were all written by the house of Israel. Like I said the bible is a message to the house of Israel that was made into a religon.

And still, there's no evidence such a person existed. And your facts are a bit skewed. 

It was the Council of Nicaea. And that happened in 325 AD. Let that sink in a minute. 325 years AFTER the supposed events.

It's mostly all fiction.


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Yehoshua ben Yosef did exist there is too much over whelming evidence but when you go looking for Jesus he did not exist til 1826 before that they called him Heysus the God of swine. Like Jacob Joshuas brother the world calls him James but if you go looking for James the brother of Jesus you run into dead ends. I know all about the council of nicea and  creation of the universal church. When you speak of Christianity to me your not talking to a novice.

I think the study of the faith in all of its various forms is an interesting one. It is a faith that has had profound influence on all cultures of the world, but helped shaped western culture for centuries. Even in very diverse parts of America (here in Oregon we are the least "churched" state in the union"), the influence of Christianity is everywhere and i can totally understand how non-Christians get tired of that.

I do think that when we assert our personal faith in forums like this it can get into a back and forth pretty fast and let's face it, most people do not change their viewpoints on that. Their faith was established by influence from parents or some other significant relationships in their life.

But we may ask, how does that fit with Christ's exhortation to "go make disciples in all of the world"? I think that answer to that is that discipleship is not interactions on forums like this, it is daily willful serving of other people as demonstrated by the example of Christ, whether you believe him to be a historical character or whether you believe him to be an idea that can actually "save the world", our something else entirely.

Serving other people truly does save the world and is probably the most wonderful effect of Christianity's influence on culture. There are examples of it everywhere from street missions to Mother Theresa. That is the kind of Christianity i personally want to focus on, not doctrine that is supposed to change my identity to one group or another, or is designed to keep me from a "fiery hell". Whatever occurs to me in the afterlife will take care of itself in my view.

Ummm...  Mother Theresa might not be the saint some hold her out to be.


From http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html)

QuoteThis returns us to the medieval corruption of the church, which sold indulgences to the rich while preaching hellfire and continence to the poor. MT was not a friend of the poor. She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction. And she was a friend to the worst of the rich, taking misappropriated money from the atrocious Duvalier family in Haiti (whose rule she praised in return) and from Charles Keating of the Lincoln Savings and Loan. Where did that money, and all the other donations, go? The primitive hospice in Calcutta was as run down when she died as it always had been—she preferred California clinics when she got sick herself—and her order always refused to publish any audit. But we have her own claim that she opened 500 convents in more than a hundred countries, all bearing the name of her own order. Excuse me, but this is modesty and humility?

Mr Hitchens undoubtedly has more skeletons in his  closet than any of us.

Well, I'd consider him more credible than "believers".

From https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/13/pope-francis-makes-2-fatima-children-catholic-saints-100-years-after-visions.html (https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/13/pope-francis-makes-2-fatima-children-catholic-saints-100-years-after-visions.html)

QuotePope Francis added two Portuguese shepherd children to the roster of Catholic saints Saturday, honouring young siblings whose reported visions of the Virgin Mary 100 years ago turned the Portuguese farm town of Fatima into one of the world's most important Catholic shrines.

Francis proclaimed Francisco and Jacinta Marto saints at the start of Mass marking the centenary of their visions. A half-million people watched in the vast square in front of the shrine's basilica, the Vatican said, citing Portuguese authorities. Many had spent days at Fatima in prayer, reciting rosaries before a statue of the Madonna. They clapped as soon as Francis read the proclamation aloud.

"It is amazing. It's like an answer to prayer, because I felt that always they would be canonized," said Agnes Walsh from Killarney, Ireland. She said she prayed to Francisco Marto for 20 years, hoping her four daughters would meet "nice boys like Francisco."

"The four of them have met boys that are just beautiful. I couldn't ask for better, so he has answered all my prayers," she said.

So, because they had "visions", they get canonized and their town becomes a shrine.  Even ignoring those visions supposedly happened a century ago, how can anyone conclude they're saint material?  Where is there the slightest shred of evidence???

If I pray to the Great Pumpkin for something and that something happens, is it because the Great Pumpkin did it?  Or, as is much more likely, it would have happened anyway?  Well, that is the precise situation with these so called "miracles".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pumpkin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pumpkin)

Hitchens life's work consists of exposes of Bill Clinton,  Henry Kissinger, and Mother Teresa. Not my idea of credibility.

I'd also suggest that if you hold such disdain for religion, perhaps the Spirituality forum isn't the best place for you to be posting. Because if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

Hugs, Devlyn

QuoteBecause if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

Perhaps you can explain to me why "believers" are free to express their beliefs, but others are denied rebuttal?  I, for one, find such beliefs to be offensive, as it involves passing off delusion as fact or reality.  Why the double standard?

If someone posts their beliefs here, why am I not allowed to challenge them?  Or does "spirituality" not allow opposing views?

Quote from: AnneK on May 15, 2017, 04:00:19 PM

QuoteBecause if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

Perhaps you can explain to me why "believers" are free to express their beliefs, but others are denied rebuttal?  I, for one, find such beliefs to be offensive, as it involves passing off delusion as fact or reality.  Why the double standard?

If someone posts their beliefs here, why am I not allowed to challenge them?  Or does "spirituality" not allow opposing views?

Perhaps you could explain to me where anyone was denied anything.....


The point im making is post respectfully or youll be  asked not to post at all. In this thread you have referred to people as delusional. You put believers in scare quotes. You brought up the Great Pumpkin like a nine year old. There is a difference between worship and cartoons. You're not ready to offer up serious rebuttals. You're just playing games.

Well, you did say this:

QuoteI'd also suggest that if you hold such disdain for religion, perhaps the Spirituality forum isn't the best place for you to be posting. Because if you blast people for their beliefs in this section it won't go over well.

If the spirituality forum isn't the place for this sort of discussion, then where?

Now, please compare my comments about delusional etc., with that Missouri Republican, who claimed there were differences between humans and gays, basing those claims on his religious beliefs..  Now that is something I find offensive.  It is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Quote from: AnneK on May 15, 2017, 08:11:30 PM
Well, you did say this:

If the spirituality forum isn't the place for this sort of discussion, then where?

Now, please compare my comments about delusional etc., with that Missouri Republican, who claimed there were differences between humans and gays, basing those claims on his religious beliefs..  Now that is something I find offensive.  It is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

You can have an opinion but be respectful about it but that is rude to be calling some delusional because they believe in a higher power, I am actually a Christian and believe in God and Jesus Christ and nowhere in the bible does it say gays are different from humans although the bible does speak against it. That's just people being dumb, you don't have to agree with what everyone is doing in their life but be respectful.

I respect Christianity to the same degree that it respects me.  For example. 

QuoteThat is why God abandoned them in their inmost cravings to filthy practices of dishonouring their own bodies— 25 because they exchanged God's truth for a lie and have worshipped and served the creature instead of the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to degrading passions: 27 why their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural practices; and the men, in a similar fashion, too, giving up normal relations with women, are consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameful things with men and receiving in themselves due reward for their perversion. 28 In other words, since they would not consent to acknowledge God, God abandoned them to their unacceptable thoughts and indecent behaviour. 29 And so now they are steeped in all sorts of injustice, rottenness, greed and malice; full of envy, murder, wrangling, treachery and spite, 30 libellers, slanderers, enemies of God, rude, arrogant and boastful, enterprising in evil, rebellious to parents, 31 without brains, honour, love or pity. 32 They are well aware of God's ordinance: that those who behave like this deserve to die—yet they not only do it, but even applaud others who do the same. (ROM 1:24-32, NJB)

The New Testament scriptures call us without brains and deserving to die.  For some reason I don't find that particularly respectful.  And what is the point of calling yourself a Christian and then ignoring the parts you don't like?  That's just making up a new religion as you go.  A do-it-yourself God.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

 :police:

This is Christianity area. Respect it as such.

On this site Respect goes both ways and that is not negotiable.

Cindy

Yes, religion can be depressing since it usually uses fear to control people, for donation purposes.
If you accepted those beliefs as a young child it can hard to shake them later.

If you want to be logical, the Sumerian writings predated the Old Testament by 2000 years, yet tell the same Bible stories, using earlier Babylonian versions of the names used in the Old Testament.
And the tale is told from the point of aliens coming to earth to obtain gold, genetically engineering humans to work in the gold mines by mixing their DNA with DNA from local earth ape men, then engineering animals and crop plants in the garden of Aiden.

The origins of human beings according to ancient Sumerian texts http://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/origins-human-beings-according-ancient-sumerian-texts-0065?

But if you have ever taken LSD, magic mushrooms, or meditated long enough to get in an existential state, you will find overwhelming, unconditional love, unity with the universe. Afterward it's more difficult to buy into hateful, judgmental religion.

To obey the Old Testament, you'd have to stone your kids for talking back, or carrying something on Saturday, etc., and the New Testament says women must be silent in church, wear a veil, marry, have children, and stay at home.

However, there are churches that simply celebrate love and life and accept everyone. I think Unitarian is one but you can google others if you want to attend. Or you can just get out in nature and meditate.

I know some don't like the word "delusional", but what then is the proper term for someone who insists on believing something that not only has no historical or archeaological evidence, but is actually contradicted by those?  For example, King David supposedly destroyed several cities.  Yet, the fact is most of them were destroyed outside of his life time.  Also, history shows him to be a fairly minor figure.  Why no record of the Exodus?  The Egyptians were excellent record keepers.  It's a long list...  If we're supposed to respect them, why aren't they supposed to respect those with opposing views?

Quote from: AnneK on May 26, 2017, 06:18:30 AM
I know some don't like the word "delusional", but what then is the proper term for someone who insists on believing something that not only has no historical or archeaological evidence, but is actually contradicted by those?  For example, King David supposedly destroyed several cities.  Yet, the fact is most of them were destroyed outside of his life time.  Also, history shows him to be a fairly minor figure.  Why no record of the Exodus?  The Egyptians were excellent record keepers.  It's a long list...  If we're supposed to respect them, why aren't they supposed to respect those with opposing views?

I mean I have personally witnessed things that only God could have done, I would never deny his existence, I could go on and on about everything he has done for me but you still wouldn't open your mind up to it, I think most Christians do respect you guys but you get mad at us because we follow a bible that teaches against certain things and it's not like we wrote it and I mean we don't have to agree with everything you do and I feel like some of the LGBT community forces that on people.We automatically get labeled homophobic and transphobic, I respect everyone but don't shove stuff down my throat and I myself am a trans man saying this.

QuoteI mean I have personally witnessed things that only God could have done

Really???  Care to site some examples where there is no other possible explanation?

Quote from: Brandon on May 27, 2017, 03:53:14 AM
I think most Christians do respect you guys but you get mad at us because we follow a bible that teaches against certain things and it's not like we wrote it and I mean we don't have to agree with everything you do and I feel like some of the LGBT community forces that on people.

Nobody cares what book you personally believe in and nobody cares whether you agree or disagree with anything.  But you don't stop at disagreement.  No, you and your ilk constantly try and deprive us of the freedom to live our lives as we see fit.  You guys are the penultimate hypocrites crying your crocodile tears about anyone forcing anything on you.  It makes Christians appear either supremely dishonest or extremely gullible to believe anything they're told from whomever they follow.

At least Christians in the old days were courageous enough to say out loud their intentions, "IN HOC SIGNO VINCES."


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Locked for review and clean up.

I also posted in the thread warning people to be respectful and as that has not been followed the clean up will not be without penalties.

Members are fully aware of the rules of this Forum.