Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Transgender pair say they were barred from the Cheshire Inn; seeks explanation

by COLIN MURPHY Senior Staff Writer
08-23-2005

TheVitalVoice (http://www.thevitalvoice.com/cgi-script/csArticles/articles/000006/000624.htm)

"...around 1 a.m. According to DeWitt, she walked through the door past the doorman and security guard only to realize that her friends weren't behind her, as they had been asked for identification by the doorman. DeWitt alleges that the doorman denied Lisa entry because her ID showed her as a man.

"They said, this doesn't look like you and we're not going to let you in," explained DeWitt."

Karen

Showing ID to get into a restaurant/bar when obviously over the age of 21?  What is the world coming to?  And then refused entry for dubious reasons?  Don't want to hear this.  :icon_lalala: :icon_lalala:

She's presenting herself as a woman... yet shows the doorman a male ID... and then screams "discrimination!" when questioned?

I think the "explanation" is that her ID doesn't match her person?

~Kate~

Yeah, I've seen plenty (and I mean plenty) of people refused entry when the ID was not correct. Unless you look obviously over 40, they won't take a chance, they could get their liquor license revoked.

So, not sure if its discrimation. It may be, but its not a very obvious one. If the person was able to show they were the person on the picture and still not let in, then it would be discrimnation.

I spent months unable to go to any bars or clubs where I wasnt allready known by the security because my ID didnt match me....  *Shrugs*  Its the state of affairs in the world we live in...

Anyways... yeah...

Still discrimination and not acceptable. Any time you accept things like this you make it that much harder to overturn it in the future. The state of affairs in the world we live in, indeed.

Quote from: Susan on November 22, 2007, 01:23:37 AM
Still discrimination and not acceptable.

Well isn't the point of PhotoIDs to match the photo?

I'm not sure how it's discrimination? At least as long as ANYONE who's appearance doesn't match their photo is being rejected. If only TGs are being targeted, then sure, it's wrong. On the other hand, it's TGs who will be the most dramatic mismatches with their ID. But if I showed up anywhere IDs were being examined and handed them the PhotoID of a male friend, I'd EXPECT to be rejected.

All she really has to do is change her ID, but apparently won't do that because she chooses to keep her male (legal) identity and life. That's going to create problems for her.

~Kate~

I agree, when TS or TG ask for what I deem unreasonable
entitlements, it plays right in the hands of those that
don't want any laws, even entirely reasonable ones, to
cover us. Like giving us human rights would entitle us
to the most spurious requests.

Some TS, like any human beings, like to deliberately see
alienation where there is none, because of their own
view of the world. I used to think everyone was out
to get me, when in fact the alienation was self-made.

There are rules in society
for everyone and yeah, something they are annoying...
Like paying taxes... But we live with them.

Quote from: Susan on November 22, 2007, 01:23:37 AM
Still discrimination and not acceptable. Any time you accept things like this you make it that much harder to overturn it in the future. The state of affairs in the world we live in, indeed.

Of course it's discrimination. Only the people who resemble their ID will be let in. Also, they discriminate against people who are under 21.

Discrimination isn't a bad thing. I have a discrimination against anchovies and towards chocolate.

i also concord with kate.  the idea of female presentation is to make the necessary changes to be perceived as 'female' in the society we live in.  that includes legal documentation or at least a pic that matches who we say we are.

Theres a median here...

If the person was turned away because of the M on the ID but the picture matched... then thats wrong and most deffinatly discrimination...

If the person was turned away because it was like my old ID... <Scarry pic... me looking like a viiolent criminal with a goatee and glazed eyes> and they looked like me now <Deffinatly not like a violent criminal and deffinatly no goatee and deffinatly not the person in that old picture> I can understand perfectly...  The point of photo ID is that you look like the person in the picture...  Ill never look like the person in that old picture again, and I had lots of trouble till I got the picture updated.  Noone really cares or should care what name s on the ID or what the gender marker say...  If your going to a bar or club or anything else that requires you to be of a certian age, All they really pay attention to <or should pay attention to> Is the picture and the age...

Seriously folks, Its not that hard to go to the DPS or who ever issues yur states ID's and say "I need to update my picture" It costs 10-20 dolars but its well worth the expence.

Quote from: LynnER on November 22, 2007, 12:39:20 PM
Seriously folks, Its not that hard to go to the DPS or who ever issues yur states ID's and say "I need to update my picture" It costs 10-20 dolars but its well worth the expence.

Yup, but this person can't do that. They claim to be transsexual, yet don't want surgery, hormones, or a female identity because they want to be able to be able to perform as a male for their wife. All they do is dress up a few nights each week to go clubbing, yet they expect to reap the benefits of being a transitioned woman, as if it's "owed" them somehow.

I must admit, it's difficult for me to look at this objectively, as I resent their feeling entitled to the same considerations I feel I *earned* through risking everything to transition. I paid a huge emotional and financial cost precisely to avoid situations like that, to fit back into society according to their rules. If she's not willing to do that, then she shouldn't expect everyone to bend the rules just for her. When she cries "discrimination!", what I hear is "make a special exception for ME ME ME!"

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on November 22, 2007, 12:58:26 PM

Quote from: LynnER on November 22, 2007, 12:39:20 PM
Seriously folks, Its not that hard to go to the DPS or who ever issues yur states ID's and say "I need to update my picture" It costs 10-20 dolars but its well worth the expence.

Yup, but this person can't do that. They claim to be transsexual, yet don't want surgery, hormones, or a female identity because they want to be able to be able to perform as a male for their wife. All they do is dress up a few nights each week to go clubbing, yet they expect to reap the benefits of being a transitioned woman, as if it's "owed" them somehow.

I must admit, it's difficult for me to look at this objectively, as I resent their feeling entitled to the same considerations I feel I *earned* through risking everything to transition. I paid a huge emotional and financial cost precisely to avoid situations like that, to fit back into society according to their rules. If she's not willing to do that, then she shouldn't expect everyone to bend the rules just for her. When she cries "discrimination!", what I hear is "make a special exception for ME ME ME!"

~Kate~

Very well said Kate.  In Bulgaria we cannot change the sex on our national identification papers but you can change your piccie to what you look like now.  If peeps dont want to sacrifice their male privileges & desire to keep on living as males, they shouldnt be entitled to be treated as women or be heard when nobody sees them as "women".

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with many of the posts here.  Why was there any need to check someone's ID when they are clearly over 21?  The doorman wanted as many obstacles up as he could, solely because he is a bigot!  If the ID was correct ie: picture, says F not M etc, what would he do then?  Frisk them to check if the genitalia was in order on the pretense that they might be carrying a weapon?  Where does this stuff end?  It won't, if people keep lying down and taking it!  This is definitely out of order and to think this guy is just doing his job, is being very naive.

From what was presented in the article, it was discrimination. One of them was walking straight into the place without being asked for ID, the other two were stopped. One passed, two did not and the bouncer used the policies of the place to bar those two from entering.

If you are going to card, card across the board. I know clubs and other places that cards EVERYONE regardless of how old they may appear. If they are nailed serving someone who should not be served, they get into a lot of trouble and can lose the business on just one infraction.

The bouncer can stop anyone at leasure,
never really understood why some where
carded and some not, must be some
6th sense of something.

Maybe the first one looked older, or it was easier
to ascertain the age of the person because
they didn't have a wig or whatever!

Still, if that person would have had concordant ID,
it would have been very hard to restrict entrance.
Maybe he used that as a means to discriminate,
but it was a legal one...

And, since its the plaignant telling their version of the
story, why should I believe them more than the other?

So, that person assumed the bouncer wouldn't ask for ID, strange assumption unless your clearly old.

Quote from: Kate on November 21, 2007, 10:49:42 PM
She's presenting herself as a woman... yet shows the doorman a male ID... and then screams "discrimination!" when questioned?

I think the "explanation" is that her ID doesn't match her person?

~Kate~

Your license says you are male, so you should present as man?

RLT requires that you live as a woman. The sad thing is RLT is required for SRS, SRS is required to change sex on birthcertificates and drivers license.

The article says they were stopped because they were in womens clothing while their license said male.

Again this is discrimination.

There can be many reasons why a TS may not have had yet, or can not have surgery. Medical problems, Lack of funding, and any of a myriad of other reasons.  That doesn't make the person not TS.

Quote from: Susan on November 22, 2007, 10:44:20 PM

Quote from: Kate on November 21, 2007, 10:49:42 PM
She's presenting herself as a woman... yet shows the doorman a male ID... and then screams "discrimination!" when questioned?

I think the "explanation" is that her ID doesn't match her person?

~Kate~

Your license says you are male, so you should present as man?

RLT requires that you live as a woman. The sad thing is RLT is required for SRS, SRS is required to change sex on birthcertificates and drivers license.

The article says they were stopped because they were in womens clothing while their license said male.

Again this is discrimination.

There can be many reasons why a TS may not have had yet, or can not have surgery. Medical problems, Lack of funding, and any of a myriad of other reasons.  That doesn't make the person not TS.

They were stopped becuase they couldn't prove their identity.  That's not discrimination. 

Establishments have the right to refuse service to anyone, especially anyone that may jeopardize their liquor license.  In fact they are extemely protective of said license and will certainly overreact to preserve it (you didn't think they made all that money selling dinners did you?)

Kate's analysis of this story brings out the problem with "transgenderists" or part-time trannies who will not commit to going all the way. I have a dear friend who is like that-- to placate her wife, she stopped taking hormones and continues to present male at work. Stuck halfway.

Because of my marriage, I was stuck halfway like that for almost 3 years but couldn't take it any longer and had to break on through to the other side. For anyone who remains in that halfway position permanently, I think of lyrics by Melissa Etheridge: "I don't know how you can take it... You must be stronger than me."

The ladies in this news story have run up against the infamous "gender binary" where you have to be all one thing or all the other. It impacts not only androgynes and neutroises but also the part-time "transgenderists" who resist the pressure to snap into one slot or the other. Personally, I happen to fit right into the female side of the binary-- but my heart goes out to people who can't just be one or the other. The system should be eased up to allow for them, because this is part of the natural distribution of variations in the human species. Given the current system, these ladies ran afoul of it because they're not playing by its rules. But I think the rules should find some way to accommodate halfway people.

Quote from: Hypatia on November 23, 2007, 11:32:57 AM
Personally, I happen to fit right into the female side of the binary-- but my heart goes out to people who can't just be one or the other. The system should be eased up to allow for them, because this is part of the natural distribution of variations in the human species.

Plenty of CDs,TVs, etc have active social lives as females.  The current system works, they need to work with in it, rather then screaming discrimination over a system that worked as it should have (denied entry to someone unable to prove their identity).

No, I have to disagree. The current system is unfair to people who don't fit neatly into the binary. The binary is an artificial social construct in the mind, it does not reflect the actual distribution of traits in nature. Even though most people fit it, many cannot. Exclusion of them causes injustice.

Radical gender revolutionaries want to "smash" the binary altogether. I think that's unrealistic, because most people naturally cluster around the two ends of the gender continuum. I just think it needs to stop being so rigid and exclusionary, to be eased up to allow for those in the middle of the distribution.

sounds entirely fair to me tbh...
door staff had a group of people who didnt have id that matched them... ergo, no entry, as it could be false, and the establishment could loose its licence... end of story. trans or not, it doesnt matter... if the women had had ID that showed OTHER women it would ahve been the same scenario...
R :police:

I don't agree susan, the crux here was inability
to assess identity. I'd be surprised the
bouncer actually latched on the male ID thing,
though I'm sure that's what the others think.

The first thing he saw was a photo mismatch, then
probably went to see the gender identificator
(unless the person was totally unpassable, which
is an untirely other question).

Are restaurants obligated to accept all gender variants
if they know it would incommodate their clients?
I'm pretty sure the US supreme court would NOT see
this as discrimination as company has a right to
set a certain standard within their walls. It is private
property after all. As an example of the rights
of private property owners, its legal to put video
cameras just about everywhere on private property
and there's not much the client can say about it
except being warned they are being filmed.

I have to disagree with some of the posts here. I think it was discrimination all the way. What was the reason for the ID check anyway. It probably has to do with their liquor license. Were they over 21, well the ID says they were. If the picture doesn't match the person, what was he looking at? Yes, it said male and she was dressed to look, in our society, female. What has that got to do with being over 21? Who looks like their picture on their Id, anyway. You could change in a few months, men could grow a beard or shave it off, grow their hair long, maybe could have been in a bad accident. Women could be using more or less make up, do their hair different or let it grow out or have had it cut or the color changed. Also could have had a bad accident. You don't go down and change your ID picture everytime you change your look. My God, I would be down there every month with a color change on my hair. If that doorman had a problem with the way they were dressed, then it was his problem and not theirs. I would sue the place. We need a few lawsuits against places like that, then maybe we can get some respect in Congress like we didn't get this last month.
Sheila

the doormen are doing thier job... some places ID EVERYONE... not just under 21s, or those who look it. someplaces thats thier RULES. if they let someone under 21 inside. and didnt id them, the company looses thier license. They loose the license, no jobs for staff... they do it because they have to.
i bet the trans angle to this was latched onto by the women because they were miffed at being turned away from a resteraunt for having mismatched ID and wanted to complain... its TOUGH working in a bar or club, I used to work bars in the city, and having to turn folk away is hard, but serving them when unsure is more than your job is worth... and as for my doorstaff friends, its the same. thier livelihood rests on them doing thier job, the women didnt match thier id, thus cant prove its theirs. male or female, trans or cis. it matters not. no match, id isnt valid, no entry.
R :police:

Quote from: Enigma on November 23, 2007, 11:13:59 AM
They were stopped becuase they couldn't prove their identity.  That's not discrimination. 

Establishments have the right to refuse service to anyone, especially anyone that may jeopardize their liquor license.  In fact they are extemely protective of said license and will certainly overreact to preserve it (you didn't think they made all that money selling dinners did you?)

They had valid and legal identification, which the bouncer decided not to accept because they didn't look enough like the sex specified on the id. You are telling me that when somene presents as another sex a closer look with the included picture wouldn't allow anyone to see that they are in fact the person they said they were. I call BS. I am ashamed of those on my forum who are defending this discrimination. This is the very definition of hypocrisy.

QuoteHypocrisy is the act of condemning another person, where the stated basis for the criticism is the breach of a rule which also applies to the critic.

Are the defenders telling me these TG individuals were able to change their facial structure, their eye shape, eye spacing, their lip shape, jaw structure, skull shape, and their skin tone enough to not look like their id? No any reasonably experienced bouncer would have simply taken a closer look at the id's and matched them to the person in question then allowed entrance without making fuss. This was and is discrimination! Stop defending this or when it happens to you, it will simply be karmic justice, and don't come whining about it here...

thier pictures didnt match them, they didnt look like men, its rather simple imo...
R :police:

And this is not discrimination how. They didn't look like men so they must be denied acccess to society. Are women who cut their hair or dye it denied access. Are men who shave their long hair for short denied. No they were penalized by this bouncer due to not looking like the GENDER that was specified on their drivers licenses by society...

um no, its fairly unilateral.
if the photo doesnt look like the person, no entry, as its not VALID photo id then is it? its not because thier trans, its because thier id wasnt valid.... end of story tbh.
the examples you mentioned would be barred too
i watched a guy get barred cos he grew a beard since his id.... its that simple... yeah, its discrimination.... against people who might cause the establishment to loose thier license... if your id is valid, no risk, if the staff arnt sure, they have to decline admitance or service... because that could risk the establishment, and thus thier jobs...
harsh, but reality
R :police:

Then this is wrong and must be changed it's that simple. As I stated in my message above there are characteristics which can not be modified which can be used to match a person to a photograph even if that person has done some serious appearance modifications since it was taken. There is no acceptable justification on this. Topic Locked