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I thought I would recorded it somehow. I did not shoot a video like others do for YouTube. I was on patches and they are annoying, so my doc gave me a prescription for shots. I assume it will be more potent than patches.

Hey GreyKat,

  I hope the shots work better for you. I can't help you on the potency question. I did patches for several weeks and didn't have any problems except some loosening in the shower but they stuck back down when things died out. I'm doing the pill right now. Not sure if the VA does other forms.

Good Luck to you.

Laurie

Generally speaking, patches and gels are the least efficacious of the delivery systems. Then pills, then shots and pellets. I'm quite sure youll be receiving more E through the injections. You're IM dosage would have to be ridiculously low for that not tobe the case. So low, no endo would bother prescribing it.

Hi GrayKat! Doing shots myself now too, since a couple of weeks, every 10 days (I won't specify the dose, though). I found the IM injection (ventrogluteal site) surprisingly painless! What about you? And as for other symptoms, nothing so far. Girl's dope seems to be smoothly doing its thing... So much more practical than pills. I used to take the pills twice a day, so sometimes it wasn't that practical, even though I always carried a couple of doses in my pocket, inside their blister. I still have to remember to take the AA (I take it 3 times a day) and for that I keep different alarms on my smartphone. Hope my hormone levels will be good! I trust they will... 😌 I hope your experience will be as positive as mine!
Hugs, Sarah

edited: couple of minor typos.

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I take the injection in the leg.  I follow it with vigorous exercise.  Failing to do that the thigh gets stiff.


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Until yesterday, I was on the patches. The problem I had with them, was that without a ton of medical tape and one of those big band-aid patches they would never stay on. They constantly fell off. I finally had enough and went to the doctors office to request another form. So last night I got a call that my method had been switched to the pill. Needless to say I'm happy, happy, happy. Also with the pills my dosage has gone up. ;D

Quote from: jentay1367 on May 11, 2017, 12:07:17 AM
Generally speaking, patches and gels are the least efficacious of the delivery systems. Then pills, then shots and pellets. I'm quite sure youll be receiving more E through the injections. You're IM dosage would have to be ridiculously low for that not tobe the case. So low, no endo would bother prescribing it.

Link or source, please?

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 16, 2017, 12:10:30 PM
Link or source, please?

Hugs, Devlyn

I'm pretty sure patches don't work well when they are stuck to one's underwear rather than skin, but I haven't found a definitive study. 

Now, if someone wants to fund a long term research project into the matter, why, I'd be happy to conduct a study of the efficacy of patches as applied to one's undies vs hide.   ;D

OK, enough snark.

Patches work OK as long as they are attached, and the delivery works OK through one's hide.  No dosages per patch, natch, but I have four of the little buggers on me right now at the max strength my insurance formulary permits.  At a $10 per patch 'copay' (list price!) before I hit my max out of pocket, and changing these twice a week, they are considerably more expensive than injections, pills, or gel.  They are also the only thing my endocrinologist will prescribe, so patch I must...  (The doc doesn't want me riding the estrogen roller coaster, just a nice steady level.  Something about how I present with PMS.  >:-) )

I have to re-order a 3 month supply next week, so all I can say is thank goodness I hit my max-out-of-pocket already.

Quote from: Michelle_P on May 16, 2017, 12:21:43 PM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 16, 2017, 12:10:30 PM
Link or source, please?

Hugs, Devlyn

I'm pretty sure patches don't work well when they are stuck to one's underwear rather than skin, but I haven't found a definitive study.

Now, if someone wants to fund a long term research project into the matter, why, I'd be happy to conduct a study of the efficacy of patches as applied to one's undies vs hide.   ;D

OK, enough snark.

Patches work OK as long as they are attached, and the delivery works OK through one's hide.  No dosages per patch, natch, but I have four of the little buggers on me right now at the max strength my insurance formulary permits.  At a $10 per patch 'copay' (list price!) before I hit my max out of pocket, and changing these twice a week, they are considerably more expensive than injections, pills, or gel.  They are also the only thing my endocrinologist will prescribe, so patch I must...  (The doc doesn't want me riding the estrogen roller coaster, just a nice steady level.  Something about how I present with PMS.  >:-) )

I have to re-order a 3 month supply next week, so all I can say is thank goodness I hit my max-out-of-pocket already.

I think you're supposed to undress before you put them on!  :laugh:

Hugs, Devlyn

I've never tried patches but I was on pills for a while before I changed to injections.  It was a world of difference for me personally and my e levels went up normal levels.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 16, 2017, 12:10:30 PM
Link or source, please?

Hugs, Devlyn

Just waiting for KayXo to post up the links and sources of sound clinical studies.  I know she will. :)

When something is delivered as fact I  like to see the information.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Same here.  I have read the studies and am too lazy to search them out (lol), but I know KayXo has shown them to me in the past, and she is quite a clinical study digger, so I await her arrival.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 17, 2017, 12:15:18 PM
When something is delivered as fact I  like to see the information.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

QuoteGenerally speaking, patches and gels are the least efficacious of the delivery systems.

with of course, the operative word being "Generally".  My answer was presented as anecdotal , apocryphal information that is generally accepted by the community. Never meant to be absolute empirical evidence by any means and I think that was evident by my verbiage. It was intended as a helping hand to an individual asking about generalities regarding the administration of Estrogen. Parsing my words is certainly your prerogative, but in the spirit of intent, I  fall on the sword of merely trying to help the OP with generally accepted outcomes within our community.

My anecdotal experience is that my doctor said all estradiol is the same, regardless of route of administration. She said patches offer more stable dosing than either oral or injected estradiol. Now none of this is fact, either, merely me relaying her words from memory. But I  don't recall her saying we were taking a less effective route by going with transdermal. Which is what you seem to  imply with your experiences.

Just wondering where you got the information.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 17, 2017, 02:02:43 PM
My anecdotal experience is that my doctor said all estradiol is the same, regardless of route of administration. She said patches offer more stable dosing than either oral or injected estradiol. Now none of this is fact, either, merely me relaying her words from memory. But I  don't recall her saying we were taking a less effective route by going with transdermal. Which is what you seem to  imply with your experiences.

Just wondering where you got the information.

Hugs, Devlyn

from my own personal experience as well as my personal Endocrinologist as well as my speaking with other trans Women throughout my journey. In other words, my personal experience. Yours is different than mine. Take my information with a grain of salt if you like.

The point is, there is no information that says

"Generally speaking, patches and gels are the least efficacious of the delivery systems."

that I know of. Please do point to that if you stumble across it.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 17, 2017, 02:26:56 PM
The point is, there is no information that says

"Generally speaking, patches and gels are the least efficacious of the delivery systems."

that I know of. Please do point to that if you stumble across it.

Hugs, Devlyn

All over the internet. Google is at hand

So it is. 

"In addition to offering the same benefits as oral therapy, this type of estrogen treatment has several additional advantages. For one, the patch is convenient. You can stick it on and not worry about having to take a pill each day.
While estrogen pills can be dangerous for people with liver problems, patches are OK, because the estrogen bypasses the liver and goes directly into the blood. A 2007 study also showed that the patch does not pose a risk of blood clots in postmenopausal women like oral estrogen does, though more studies are needed before making definitive conclusions on whether patches are safer than pills. Right now, all estrogens carry the same black-box warning with respect to clot formation."

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 17, 2017, 03:03:19 PM
So it is. 

"In addition to offering the same benefits as oral therapy, this type of estrogen treatment has several additional advantages. For one, the patch is convenient. You can stick it on and not worry about having to take a pill each day.
While estrogen pills can be dangerous for people with liver problems, patches are OK, because the estrogen bypasses the liver and goes directly into the blood. A 2007 study also showed that the patch does not pose a risk of blood clots in postmenopausal women like oral estrogen does, though more studies are needed before making definitive conclusions on whether patches are safer than pills. Right now, all estrogens carry the same black-box warning with respect to clot formation."

O.M.G!......looks like patches are the perfect delivery system for you. Congratulations...you've found your fit.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 17, 2017, 03:03:19 PM"While estrogen pills can be dangerous for people with liver problems

There are different types of estrogen and it is imperative to specify which type we are speaking about. Why? Because bio-identical estradiol is metabolized much more efficiently and rapidly than are non bio-identical ones (because foreign to the body) so that the latter recirculate through the portal vein again and again, triggering changes in clotting factors that increase the risk of a formation of a blood clot in the veins. Studies have confirmed, time and time again, that the differences are significant. For instance, it's been estimated that ethinyl estradiol's impact on the liver is between 500 to 2,500 times stronger than estradiol.

There are studies in ciswomen with advanced breast cancer and studies in transwomen where moderate to very high doses of oral bio-identical estrogen were used and none of them ever showed liver complications while the risk of DVT remained quite low despite the advanced age of the patients (up to 92 yrs old).

Please pay attention to what type of estrogen they are referring to. This is of paramount importance.

QuoteA 2007 study also showed that the patch does not pose a risk of blood clots in postmenopausal women like oral estrogen does

Was the oral estrogen conjugated equine estrogen (Premarin) or bio-identical estradiol? If it was bio-identical, did the administration of this type of estrogen lead to an actual occurrence of DVT or pulmonary embolism?

QuoteRight now, all estrogens carry the same black-box warning with respect to clot formation."

Because pharmaceutical companies prefer to be overcautious to protect themselves. Studies, on the other hand, clearly show the risks to be greater with non bio-identical forms of estrogens taken orally.


As regards to one form of administration being superior to another, it's neither substantiated nor confirmed in transwomen. What matters is the individual's particular sensitivity to hormones and the dose prescribed. Some do VERY well on patches and oral, some do poorly on injections. Just to illustrate, I had much greater breast growth on oral than on injections, despite the fact that my levels were significantly higher on oral. It DEPENDS. I'm actually thinking of going back to oral.

Quote from: KayXo on May 18, 2017, 11:00:03 AM
As regards to one form of administration being superior to another, it's neither substantiated nor confirmed in transwomen. What matters is the individual's particular sensitivity to hormones and the dose prescribed. Some do VERY well on patches and oral, some do poorly on injections. Just to illustrate, I had much greater breast growth on oral than on injections, despite the fact that my levels were significantly higher on oral. It DEPENDS. I'm actually thinking of going back to oral.

Welp, that was not much help!  LOL 
Just kidding.

I think the key is that here is no clinical research out there for HRT for feminization but, rather, it is all for HRT for menopausal women.
Which is not directly applicable to trans women because trans women want to feminize, not maintain a sustaining level to fend off hot flashes..

Quote from: Sarah.VanDistel on May 11, 2017, 02:16:36 AM
Hi GrayKat! Doing shots myself now too, since a couple of weeks, every 10 days (I won't specify the dose, though). I found the IM injection (ventrogluteal site) surprisingly painless! What about you? And as for other symptoms, nothing so far. Girl's dope seems to be smoothly doing its thing... So much more practical than pills. I used to take the pills twice a day, so sometimes it wasn't that practical, even though I always carried a couple of doses in my pocket, inside their blister. I still have to remember to take the AA (I take it 3 times a day) and for that I keep different alarms on my smartphone. Hope my hormone levels will be good! I trust they will... 😌 I hope your experience will be as positive as mine!
Hugs, Sarah

edited: couple of minor typos.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

Actually, I find them quit painful. Not the shot itself, I end up with a big painful lump that lasts for two weeks

Quote from: GrayKat on May 21, 2017, 10:57:51 PM

Actually, I find them quit painful. Not the shot itself, I end up with a big painful lump that lasts for two weeks

Hummm... That's odd. I don't know how much volume you get (me 2 mL) but it's definitely not normal to get a lump, unless there's some sort of local reaction, the volume of medication is too large (> 5mL) or the injection technique is inappropriate (not deep enough? local hematoma?). Was it the first time that you got the injection? Which site of injection are you getting injected on (ventrogluteal is the most appropriate and safest for large volumes, i.e. 2.5-5mL)?
Yours truly, Sarah

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Quote from: GrayKat on May 21, 2017, 10:57:51 PM

Actually, I find them quit painful. Not the shot itself, I end up with a big painful lump that lasts for two weeks

  Hi,

  That doesn't sound right at all. Perhaps you hit the wrong place or possibly not injecting yourself correctly. Have you consulted your doctor about this?
  Hope you get it resolved soon.

Hugs,
   Laurie

I take XXml, the 'beginner' amount.  At this dose, I feel nothing.  I sent her an email but have not heard back yet.

Sorry for interjecting: posting of dosage information is not allowed on this site. If you can please edit your posts and remove the dosage information. Thanks!

Quote from: GrayKat on May 22, 2017, 07:24:56 PM
I take , the 'beginner' amount.  At this dose, I feel nothing.  I sent her an email but have not heard back yet.

Quote from: sarah1972 on May 22, 2017, 08:42:37 PM
Sorry for interjecting: posting of dosage information is not allowed on this site. If you can please edit your posts and remove the dosage information. Thanks!

OK, done  :)

Well, I tried a new vile and I am not having the same side effects. With the first vile, when I injected it into my leg it felt like hot coals going into my leg. The burning persisted for days. I tried to downplay it because I wanted it so bad. The reaction was horrible.

  It could have been a bad batch in the vial or perhaps it was expired? At any rate did you see if you could return the vial for a refund or exchange? The vial should have a date on it.

Hugs,
   Laurie

I am going to contact my doctor and see if I can get a replacement.