Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am not trying to bring down those here who feel that their dysphoria is biological or inborn. I don't know if this is a type of dysphoria, but I realize that it must be tough for the average man to face society today. I was born a man, and even today, because of disabilities and challenges, I have no basic achievements. I don't even have a low-level job to pay things. I can imagine that if men really looked at it today, they can admit that it's more worth living life as a woman than a man. These feelings of mine aren't intense in the sense that they interfere with my daily living, but I stop and think about society sometimes and I really don't think it's fair for men and boys, especially if your disadvantaged like you have disabilities. Even disadvantaged women are better off because they still have basic aspects of femininity.

I haven't personally been affected by this, but I have read studies and anecdotal stuff that is very painful to read.

But why don't most people believe me and really look at how gender works in society?

Quote from: redhot1 on May 17, 2017, 08:47:02 PM
I am not trying to bring down those here who feel that their dysphoria is biological or inborn. I don't know if this is a type of dysphoria, but I realize that it must be tough for the average man to face society today. I was born a man, and even today, because of disabilities and challenges, I have no basic achievements. I don't even have a low-level job to pay things. I can imagine that if men really looked at it today, they can admit that it's more worth living life as a woman than a man. These feelings of mine aren't intense in the sense that they interfere with my daily living, but I stop and think about society sometimes and I really don't think it's fair for men and boys, especially if your disadvantaged like you have disabilities. Even disadvantaged women are better off because they still have basic aspects of femininity.

I haven't personally been affected by this, but I have read studies and anecdotal stuff that is very painful to read.

But why don't most people believe me and really look at how gender works in society?

Because there is actual data that refutes your anecdotal evidence.

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What exactly is inherently advantageous to having "basic aspects of feminity". You desire these because you wish you could be more feminine, whether through expression or transition (I saw your other post about questioning). There is nothing advantageous about that, that's about as important as a personality trait. Disadvantaged women are more likely to be having to take care of children on their own and less likely to be able to hold down work because they can't afford childcare. Women are also promoted less than men so are less likely to grow and escape their situations in that sense. Disadvantaged men are more likely to be heavier substance abusers and they talk less about their feelings so commit suicide more, though women are not less depressed in fact women are said to be more depressed, though this is probably just because they report it. Then theres issues of rape, and domestic abuse with affect women more. I don't really see where in that you see that women are better off inherently and that men are being subjected to sexist treatment. Everyone has issues. There are regular campaigns about trying to get men with mental health issues to talk about them, there was a whole TV series on in the UK a couple of months ago about a bereaved footballer who was trying to help himself and open men's eyes to the help that's out there if they just give up a little pride. Nobody is oppressing men.

Quote from: redhot1 on May 17, 2017, 08:47:02 PM
I am not trying to bring down those here who feel that their dysphoria is biological or inborn. I don't know if this is a type of dysphoria, but I realize that it must be tough for the average man to face society today. I was born a man, and even today, because of disabilities and challenges, I have no basic achievements. I don't even have a low-level job to pay things. I can imagine that if men really looked at it today, they can admit that it's more worth living life as a woman than a man. These feelings of mine aren't intense in the sense that they interfere with my daily living, but I stop and think about society sometimes and I really don't think it's fair for men and boys, especially if your disadvantaged like you have disabilities. Even disadvantaged women are better off because they still have basic aspects of femininity.

I haven't personally been affected by this, but I have read studies and anecdotal stuff that is very painful to read.

But why don't most people believe me and really look at how gender works in society?

I dont see how woman are better off becaus they have basic aspect of femininity. But i will say that issues men face are more likely to be ignored, for example i just searched for it and it seens that about 40% of vicitms of domestic violence are men but most organazatians who want to help vicitms of domestic violence are pretty much just for woman. For the most part i think that men issues are to some degree being ignored becaus they are expected to be though and there are more men with powerfull positions then woman. Woman arent excepected to be as though and strong they are excpected to be more emotinal and such, so when something happens to a woman people care more about it then they would if it happens to a man.

So i think that society for the most part ignores things or dont care about the issues men face because they think that woman's issues are more important. Which leads to men facing sexism in society and not being able to adress the issue becaus there is an other group that is having problems.

Quote from: Sena on May 18, 2017, 08:57:58 AM
But i will say that issues men face are more likely to be ignored, for example i just searched for it and it seens that about 40% of vicitms of domestic violence are men but most organazatians who want to help vicitms of domestic violence are pretty much just for woman. For the most part i think that men issues are to some degree being ignored becaus they are expected to be though and there are more men with powerfull positions then woman. Woman arent excepected to be as though and strong they are excpected to be more emotinal and such, so when something happens to a woman people care more about it then they would if it happens to a man.

So i think that society for the most part ignores things or dont care about the issues men face because they think that woman's issues are more important. Which leads to men facing sexism in society and not being able to adress the issue becaus there is an other group that is having problems.

That isn't sexism, it's misogyny.

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Men are not victims of sexism at all. Men suffer from patriarchal standards of manhood expecting them to be way tougher and more internalised than is reasonable. But that is enforced by the patriarchy not by women so it is not sexist. I've seen far more men ridicule other men for being emotional than women do. Feminists are also against these sort of oppressive standards of masculinity because they harm everyone. Women have no advantage in this matter because they have "basic aspects of feminity" like feminity is some sort of magic pill that cures societal problems.

Quote from: martiabernathey on May 18, 2017, 09:09:27 AM
That isn't sexism, it's misogyny.

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EXACTLY! Men are expected to act overly tough because emotions are seen as feminine feminity is seen inherently as weakness. This disdain for feminity is exactly what has to be gotten rid of for the benefit of women and men. But inherently, it is sexist towards women, not men. What it does to men is a side effect.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 18, 2017, 09:13:53 AM
Men are not victims of sexism at all. Men suffer from patriarchal standards of manhood expecting them to be way tougher and more internalised than is reasonable. But that is enforced by the patriarchy not by women so it is not sexist. I've seen far more men ridicule other men for being emotional than women do. Feminists are also against these sort of oppressive standards of masculinity because they harm everyone. Women have no advantage in this matter because they have "basic aspects of feminity" like feminity is some sort of magic pill that cures societal problems.

EXACTLY! Men are expected to act overly tough because emotions are seen as feminine feminity is seen inherently as weakness. This disdain for feminity is exactly what has to be gotten rid of for the benefit of women and men. But inherently, it is sexist towards women, not men. What it does to men is a side effect.

Nothing more to say. I cant do anything but applaud you @TomTuttle. Nailed it.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 18, 2017, 09:13:53 AM
Men are not victims of sexism at all. Men suffer from patriarchal standards of manhood expecting them to be way tougher and more internalised than is reasonable. But that is enforced by the patriarchy not by women so it is not sexist. I've seen far more men ridicule other men for being emotional than women do. Feminists are also against these sort of oppressive standards of masculinity because they harm everyone. Women have no advantage in this matter because they have "basic aspects of feminity" like feminity is some sort of magic pill that cures societal problems.

EXACTLY! Men are expected to act overly tough because emotions are seen as feminine feminity is seen inherently as weakness. This disdain for feminity is exactly what has to be gotten rid of for the benefit of women and men. But inherently, it is sexist towards women, not men. What it does to men is a side effect.

This is the kind of thing that i mean when i say that men's issue's are being ignored. excuses are made to deny that men face sexism, like the domestic violence against men is for the most part ignored why? becaus the victems are men if they where woman that wouldnt happen like that what is that if not sexism against men?
Sexism is treating somebody diffrently becaus of their sex or gender it doesnt matter if the persone doing it is the opposite sex or not if you treat somebody diffrently becaus of their sex or gender its sexism.

Sexism? I guess it's possible. If a woman has male hobbies, she might be seen as brave. If a man has female hobbies,  he might be seen as gay.
As far as employment and opportunities, men seen as straight seem to have the advantage.

Quote from: Lady Sarah on May 18, 2017, 11:22:51 PM
Sexism? I guess it's possible. If a woman has male hobbies, she might be seen as brave. If a man has female hobbies,  he might be seen as gay.
As far as employment and opportunities, men seen as straight seem to have the advantage.

Again that's been explained. That isn't sexism, but misogyny.

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I think there's a sense among an oppressing population that any loss of advantage is seen or felt as oppression itself.  So when men perceive a reduction in their ability to limit women' choices, such as social or financial independence, reproductive rights, etc.. it's not that men don't feel some "harm," i.e. a loss of what was perceived as their choice, it's rather that women are simply being relieved of some level of their oppression. 

I think it's the same as how in the U.S., fundamentalist Christians argue that there is a "war on Christianity," just because progressives try to wrest power, like prohibiting mandatory prayers in public education, and such.  This is not an actual harm, but it's a loss of a small part of a significant advantage, so it feels like oppression to them.  In the case of Christianity, there is still an enormous numerical advantage in the U.S., with something like 80% of people identifying as Christian. 

Now back to men, despite having tremendous social and financial advantages, it's not like the ideas of masculinity and femininity don't have a certain level of toxicity.  Men are not permitted to feel attractive, are not permitted to be pursued or desired, are not permitted NOT to be sexually aroused at a moment's notice.  In this, which may be some of the same kinds of things that the OP touched on, I think that men do get a very raw deal socially. However, it doesn't take away the globally oppressive advantage enjoyed by men as part of this trade. 

Erin

Last week I reread Everett Maroon's Bumbling into Body Hair: A Transsexual's Memoir, and was again amused/annoyed to read how, after realizing he wasn't a dyke, but transmale, transitioning at work, and going on hormones full time, within a few weeks, he was recruited for a government job, allowed to name his salary, and had met and won over a hot a new girlfriend, whom he eventually married.

Before, he'd been a fat dyke with a bossy part-time girlfriend in another full time relationship, was overworked, underappreciated, and underpaid.

It was a country western song played backward; as white male privilege cut in (or as testosterone gave him confidence), he found himself rich, successful, and with a wonderful woman.

He and I talked salary, and in this collapsed, tight time frame for making a decision I didn't have the chance to overthink anything. He asked what salary I wanted. I was shocked, realizing that one month into my transition at work, more than fifteen years into my career, someone was asking me this question for the first time. This sexism crap is real, I thought. Like really super-real real. I named a number I thought was somewhat absurd and was grateful the phone didn't communicate how far my jaw dropped when he agreed. He asked when I could start, and we agreed on that, too.

Maroon, Everett. Bumbling into Body Hair: A Transsexual's Memoir (p. 186).  . Kindle Edition.

Quote from: Raell on May 19, 2017, 01:40:50 AM
Last week I reread Everett Maroon's [...] It was a country western song played backward; as white male privilege cut in (or as testosterone gave him confidence), he found himself rich, successful, and with a wonderful woman.

He and I talked salary, and in this collapsed, tight time frame for making a decision I didn't have the chance to overthink anything. He asked what salary I wanted. I was shocked, realizing that one month into my transition at work, more than fifteen years into my career, someone was asking me this question for the first time. This sexism crap is real, I thought. Like really super-real real. I named a number I thought was somewhat absurd and was grateful the phone didn't communicate how far my jaw dropped when he agreed. He asked when I could start, and we agreed on that, too.

Maroon, Everett. Bumbling into Body Hair: A Transsexual's Memoir (p. 186).  . Kindle Edition.

Couldn't be more spot-on @Raell

Sometimes this whole thing about "men suffering sexism" or "females got super privileges" gets to piss me off big time.

Im gonna try to put it really simple for those who apparently are unable to grasp it.

Men DO NOT face sexism (as a general rule). In any case ONLY MEN WHO DO NOT PLAY BY THE RULES or don't conform to the expectations and stereotypes set for them MAY experience a LOSS OF SOME PRIVILEGE but still are men and usually still retain a "baseline status" above most women.

For a woman it takes a real though alpha player attitude (playing by mens rules), an awful lot of self confidence and an incresibly amount of audacity to JUST GET THE AVERAGE STATUS/PRIVILEGE that to a man is ALWAYS granted.

Its like starting a chess match with only 2/3 of the pieces while your opponent has 3/3. That simple.

Not to say that men who lose some privilege and just whine and argue that females have more privileges than them, apart of being completely wrong, DO NOT HELP NEITHER WOMEN NOR THEMSELVES.  If you are a man and you are getting backlash because not conforming to the expectatives STOP WHINING, STOP THROWING ->-bleeped-<- TO WOMEN (who already are IN A MUCH WEAKER POSITION THAN YOU) AND FACE YOUR REAL ENEMY: MALE CHAUVINISM.

The numbers quoted here by some posters in regards of men being domestically/emotionally/whatsoever abused by women sound like fantasy to me. Really. Even percentages around 10% sound utterly phony and SHAMELESSLY fabricated. Just get a walk in the real world and check. Men abused by women (even assuming that because social factors is gonna be very obscured and therefore really hard to notice, lets say just noticing 1 out of 10 cases) is REALLY ANECDOTAL. Just think about how many women abused you know and how many men, and then multiply the number of men by 10. I recall on the cases I have knowledge about and men abused are anecdotal.

But lets give credit to those quoted numbers thar state 40% of men have being abused at some point by women. You know why society is giving visibilty and is acting "so much" when it comes to the abuse suffered by women? BECAUSE MANY EFFORT HAS BEEN PUT BY WOMEN TO HAVE THIS ISSUES MADE VISIBLE. Decades ago women NOT EVEN had this support and they were even more disadvantaged in all the other aspects. Today, at least while still being disadvantaged they have more support in some respects like this one.

But lemme get to the funniest part of it. You say those abused men are ignored while abused women not. And guess how society is approaching this issue? Merely palliating the core problem by "protecting" them. Can you see it? They are still in this weak position and regarded as such. They are not empowering them, nor changing the rules, nor balancing the games, nor giving them tools. They are just condescendingly protecting. Defending them from their aggressors "because they are weak and need it" but ultimately changing nothing (not even getting close to the root of the problem).

And DO YOU DARE to call this "a privilege"? Do you dare to state actually "men are facing sexism"?

I come from one of the most powerful families in Asia. As a male I achieved great  financial success, world class sportsman, and admired by my male peers as a Playboy without peer. I never knew there was an option in gender and dismissed my dysphoria simply as a male quirky sex fantacy. Thus, I never had depressions and live a life filled with positive reinforcements. I knew the benefits of being male and exercised my Alpha male position in a male dominated society. Most definitly did not face any sexism in society. I was fully aware that women faced sexism and continue to do so, women are not mens equal in the work force and sports. However, with age and an exposure to the gender options I chose at the age of 62 to start my journey, So here I am today, 69 years old, fit, beautiful and still positive (that my pic taken 2 weeks ago), as a female, I find  that I have to try harder than males to achieve the same level of respect, in the business world, as a man would face. Dont you ever believe otherwise, its still a mans world but I'm lucky I have the tg card to pull and men feel that they can communicate with my male ego. Men face NO sexism.

Quote from: Wednesday on May 19, 2017, 05:18:56 AM


Couldn't be more spot-on @Raell

Sometimes this whole thing about "men suffering sexism" or "females got super privileges" gets to piss me off big time.

Im gonna try to put it really simple for those who apparently are unable to grasp it.

Men DO NOT face sexism (as a general rule). In any case ONLY MEN WHO DO NOT PLAY BY THE RULES or don't conform to the expectations and stereotypes set for them MAY experience a LOSS OF SOME PRIVILEGE but still are men and usually still retain a "baseline status" above most women.

For a woman it takes a real though alpha player attitude (playing by mens rules), an awful lot of self confidence and an incresibly amount of audacity to JUST GET THE AVERAGE STATUS/PRIVILEGE that to a man is ALWAYS granted.

Its like starting a chess match with only 2/3 of the pieces while your opponent has 3/3. That simple.

Not to say that men who lose some privilege and just whine and argue that females have more privileges than them, apart of being completely wrong, DO NOT HELP NEITHER WOMEN NOR THEMSELVES.  If you are a man and you are getting backlash because not conforming to the expectatives STOP WHINING, STOP THROWING ->-bleeped-<- TO WOMEN (who already are IN A MUCH WEAKER POSITION THAN YOU) AND FACE YOUR REAL ENEMY: MALE CHAUVINISM.

The numbers quoted here by some posters in regards of men being domestically/emotionally/whatsoever abused by women sound like fantasy to me. Really. Even percentages around 10% sound utterly phony and SHAMELESSLY fabricated. Just get a walk in the real world and check. Men abused by women (even assuming that because social factors is gonna be very obscured and therefore really hard to notice, lets say just noticing 1 out of 10 cases) is REALLY ANECDOTAL. Just think about how many women abused you know and how many men, and then multiply the number of men by 10. I recall on the cases I have knowledge about and men abused are anecdotal.

But lets give credit to those quoted numbers thar state 40% of men have being abused at some point by women. You know why society is giving visibilty and is acting "so much" when it comes to the abuse suffered by women? BECAUSE MANY EFFORT HAS BEEN PUT BY WOMEN TO HAVE THIS ISSUES MADE VISIBLE. Decades ago women NOT EVEN had this support and they were even more disadvantaged in all the other aspects. Today, at least while still being disadvantaged they have more support in some respects like this one.

But lemme get to the funniest part of it. You say those abused men are ignored while abused women not. And guess how society is approaching this issue? Merely palliating the core problem by "protecting" them. Can you see it? They are still in this weak position and regarded as such. They are not empowering them, nor changing the rules, nor balancing the games, nor giving them tools. They are just condescendingly protecting. Defending them from their aggressors "because they are weak and need it" but ultimately changing nothing (not even getting close to the root of the problem).

And DO YOU DARE to call this "a privilege"? Do you dare to state actually "men are facing sexism"?

From what i understand you dont believe what i say https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence you will probaly dismiss it as fiction but oh well. But again just like i said before people dont care about the issues men face they will just be dismissed as being not real or not important. And i dont know what you think sexism means but everybody can experince and that means men to!
But here are some more issues that men have.

Combat deaths overwhelmingly male
Homicide victims overwhelmingly male
Suicides overwhelmingly male
Winner of custody overwhelmingly female
Men who deal with domestic abuse are mostly made fun of for being beaten by woman and discouraged from reporting it.
And mutilating the genitalia of little boys is also still acceptable while people get very angry when it happens to girls.


Do those things sound like fantasy to? but its a man who cares if his genitals are mutilated or if he loses his children in custody battles becaus hes a man. I truly hate these things that the things that men face are just dismissed becaus there are woman who face certain things.
I will say that i think that i found an other problem to and that is that men are just grouped together the ones that have power seem to be put together with the ones that dont, you know why care about men if some are the ceo's of company's that doesnt means men have all the power thats just not true individuals have power and just becaus they belong to a certain group does not mean that the whole group has power.

"1.Combat deaths overwhelmingly male
2.Homicide victims overwhelmingly male
3.Suicides overwhelmingly male
4.Winner of custody overwhelmingly female
5.Men who deal with domestic abuse are mostly made fun of for being beaten by woman and discouraged from reporting it.
6.And mutilating the genitalia of little boys is also still acceptable while people get very angry when it happens to girls."

1. Until recently only men in combat. T drives male agressive behavior, many enjoy the risk.
2.Women dont go out alone at night, they spend alot of time as homemakers. They dont have T agression.
3. Men dont talk about their problems, its not a man thing. Women seek comfort and discuss with other women. T drives male egos and when the ego is crushed its a bigger mental problem. Thus sucides are more. I used to be on the hotline for men who are sucidal.
4. Until recently women were the only qualified  home carers. Today, men who are the homemakers also get custody versus a working mum.
5. Some men are gentleman and are taught not to use physical force on women. This is a class issue as blue collar men are not so nice.
6. Circumcision is the male genetial mutatulation and this is done at birth for hygene and religious reasons. Some women mutulate their clitoris culturally. Both are occuring less. Deliberate self mutulation is difficult for females, no penis BUT females cut themselves more.

My two bits for what its worth.

Quote from: Sena on May 19, 2017, 07:00:50 AM
I will say that i think that i found an other problem to and that is that men are just grouped together the ones that have power seem to be put together with the ones that dont, you know why care about men if some are the ceo's of company's that doesnt means men have all the power thats just not true individuals have power and just becaus they belong to a certain group does not mean that the whole group has power.

This is like arguing that racism in America is over because the President was black.  Sexism, like racism, is not a system whereby every single member of the group in question, in this case men, is better off than every single member of the oppressed group, that is women.  It describes an overall bias that favors men in general, with plenty of available statistics that support this bias.  The fact that women are generally paid less than men for similar work is a fact.  That doesn't mean that there isn't one particular woman that makes more than one particular man.  And finding an example like that doesn't invalidate the systematic oppression. 

Sexism doesn't mean that every single man in America (or the world) is living free and easy and has no challenges or struggles.  No one is saying that.  But it's incontrovertible that women have to overcome a bias relative to men, in general.  This argument reminds me of one brought up sometimes in discussion of racism.  White people resent the idea that people of color can use the "n" word in their vernacular without consequence, while a white person using it is persecuted as a "racist."  This is not oppression of white people.  The systematic oppression of blacks still exists, is still real, and that one single percieved limitation is pretty cold comfort to a people facing oppressive biases in education, criminal justice, banking, employment, housing, etc... 

So finding that one man who lost a job to a woman, or those thousand victims of violence, or whatever examples you may cite, are not justification to resume and enhance oppression against women.  Elimination of the systematic biases of sexism WILL result in the loss of some of the extensive privilege previously enjoyed by men.  Sorry.  This will feel less comfortable to some men.  But again, THAT is not oppression.  That is justice. 

Everyone struggles.  No one wants to have their personal struggles belittled or under-appreciated.  But we are not going to either cure or invalidate systematic male oppression of women in our society by finding a few examples of suffering men.  That's just a fact. 

Erin

Quote from: warlockmaker
So here I am today, 69 years old, fit, beautiful and still positive (that my pic taken 2 weeks ago)

OMG :o I thought you were 50 at most! I'm still shocked! And you can bet Im aware of everything medical science can do for us! So... Tell me what kind of black magic are you using right now!!!  :D

Quote from: Sena
From what i understand you dont believe what i say https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence you will probaly dismiss it as fiction but oh well. But again just like i said before people dont care about the issues men face they will just be dismissed as being not real or not important. And i dont know what you think sexism means but everybody can experince and that means men to!

Already addressed this in the last two paragraphs.

Now lets take a close look to some of the facts you pointed out:

QuoteCombat deaths overwhelmingly male

Seriously? Maybe because are overwhelmingly male those who join voluntarily and vocationally armed forces? Maybe because they are those who promote and control the military? It couldn't be otherwise. Women who go combat also suffer casualties. Bu

QuoteHomicide victims overwhelmingly male

Even while murderers and violent crime perpetrators are overwhelmingly male, difference in many countries is way far from overwhelming. UK and USA are about 30% females and 70% males. Statistics may differ depending on the country but most are around 30/70 and 40/60 (females/males).

QuoteWinner of custody overwhelmingly female

Now take a look a the percentage of male parents in those cases charged with criminal records for example.

QuoteMen who deal with domestic abuse are mostly made fun of for being beaten by woman and discouraged from reporting it.

Pointlessly anecdotal and adressed on my last post too.

QuoteAnd mutilating the genitalia of little boys is also still acceptable while people get very angry when it happens to girls.

Sure. Of course circuncidation is pretty much the same thing as getting rid of the whole clit. Pretty ironic to read this comparison in a transgender forum by the way.

QuoteSuicides overwhelmingly male

Again numbers go by 30/70. Not what I would call overwhelming.

QuoteDo those things sound like fantasy to? but its a man who cares if his genitals are mutilated or if he loses his children in custody battles becaus hes a man. I truly hate these things that the things that men face are just dismissed becaus there are woman who face certain things.
I will say that i think that i found an other problem to and that is that men are just grouped together the ones that have power seem to be put together with the ones that dont, you know why care about men if some are the ceo's of company's that doesnt means men have all the power thats just not true individuals have power and just becaus they belong to a certain group does not mean that the whole group has power

Also addressed this on my previous post. Think you may need to read it carefully again.

EDIT: Lol I just realized you already replied her. Im really slow typing on the phone  :D

Quote from: Dayta on May 19, 2017, 09:39:14 AM
This is like arguing that racism in America is over because the President was black.  Sexism, like racism, is not a system whereby every single member of the group in question, in this case men, is better off than every single member of the oppressed group, that is women.  It describes an overall bias that favors men in general, with plenty of available statistics that support this bias.  The fact that women are generally paid less than men for similar work is a fact.  That doesn't mean that there isn't one particular woman that makes more than one particular man.  And finding an example like that doesn't invalidate the systematic oppression. 

Sexism doesn't mean that every single man in America (or the world) is living free and easy and has no challenges or struggles.  No one is saying that.  But it's incontrovertible that women have to overcome a bias relative to men, in general.  This argument reminds me of one brought up sometimes in discussion of racism.  White people resent the idea that people of color can use the "n" word in their vernacular without consequence, while a white person using it is persecuted as a "racist."  This is not oppression of white people.  The systematic oppression of blacks still exists, is still real, and that one single percieved limitation is pretty cold comfort to a people facing oppressive biases in education, criminal justice, banking, employment, housing, etc... 

So finding that one man who lost a job to a woman, or those thousand victims of violence, or whatever examples you may cite, are not justification to resume and enhance oppression against women.  Elimination of the systematic biases of sexism WILL result in the loss of some of the extensive privilege previously enjoyed by men.  Sorry.  This will feel less comfortable to some men.  But again, THAT is not oppression.  That is justice. 

Everyone struggles.  No one wants to have their personal struggles belittled or under-appreciated.  But we are not going to either cure or invalidate systematic male oppression of women in our society by finding a few examples of suffering men.  That's just a fact. 

Erin

Yeah this still looks to me the very thing that i was arguing against just becaus things that men face are adressed does not mean that it resumes and enhance oppression against women that is just crazy. how will stopping genital mutilation on boys or custody in favor of woman oppres woman more. And what i already said men are not opressing woman the only people who can even do such a thing are very powerfull people who might happen to be men.
But im pretty much done with this topic it seems that the only people that respond here just want woman to be victims and men to be these bad beings that oppres woman.
But i do think that it pretty much awnsers "Why do men face so much sexism in society today?" its becaus people care more about woman then men and if you say that men also have problems just like woman you just get talked down to that your wrong that men dont face sexism and that pretty much all their problems are caused by other men or themselfs.

Quote from: Wednesday on May 19, 2017, 09:48:31 AM


OMG :o I thought you were 50 at most! I'm still shocked! And you can bet Im aware of everything medical science can do for us! So... Tell me what kind of black magic are you using right now!!!  :D

Darling, I have invested in seeding nanotechnology as it relates to cosmetics and delivering Stem cells, herbal and synthetic infusion to rebuild the telomete lovally. Look up this very exciting development that will shake mankind lifespan soon.

Plus my family lifespan generally is well over 100 years. Plus I was a really hot looking male haha

Quote from: warlockmaker on May 19, 2017, 10:05:04 AM
Darling, I have invested in seeding nanotechnology as it relates to cosmetics and delivering Stem cells, herbal and synthetic infusion to rebuild the telomete lovally. Look up this very exciting development that will shake mankind lifespan soon.

Plus my family lifespan generally is well over 100 years. Plus I was a really hot looking male haha

:D Jesus, I bet you was!

I read time ago about telomer regeneration through transgenically modified viruses (if I can remember correctly) but  thought if viable this will be available in 20 years at best.

My apologies for momentarily highjacking this topic.

Hi Wednesday, Bill Andrews a member of the Nobel prize team in 2008 for identifying that the length of the  telomere determines the lifespan for human. He is developing a way to directly affect the gene manufactory telomere, and extending its length and thus not only maintaining our age but to reverse the process. He is talking about making this possible later this year for human trials. Yes, it involves injecting a virus and taking antimunity injections 2 weeks before.

However, today many top range beauty creams use nanotechnology to infuse herbal and synthetic products deep into our skin and reverse the telomere aging in the deep skin. Of course this is not permanant and requires regular use to maintain. Please look up "Defytime" in the internet.The best cream I have ever used but its price is unbelievable. Beauty at my age does not come cheap, and I exrecise every day and run 12 miles a week at 8min 30sec per mile pace. I wish it was easier ......

Yay! I'm really looking forward this technology to be available at reasonable prices!

Holly molly, I just checked Defytime, but the price is ridiculously high lol.

I used to train a lot, medium distance running ( my pace was a little slower :D ) and road cycling, but I gave up because I bulkied up a bit (lol sometimes I get too enthusiastic) when my goal was to be skinnier. Just thinking about training again makes me feel tired haha

> End of topic hijack :D

Quote from: Sena on May 19, 2017, 10:03:56 AM
But i do think that it pretty much awnsers "Why do men face so much sexism in society today?" its becaus people care more about woman then men and if you say that men also have problems just like woman you just get talked down to that your wrong that men dont face sexism and that pretty much all their problems are caused by other men or themselfs.

Maybe it's more productive to rephrase this question to something more like: "why does a man have to face certain constraints on his ability to express emotions and sensitivity?"  This is a very sincere and powerful question to pose.  Part of the answer is that our social gender binary construction allows men many favors, but punishes them for violating this constraint.  I am extremely sympathetic to this constraint on men.  It's honestly one of the reasons I began to question my own gender identity in the first place.  The reason that this discussion seems to degrade, from your perspective, is that women reading this compare it to the constraints on women in our society and feel that it pales in the comparison.  I'm sure that many people empathize with the struggles of men.  But in return, those same people ought to empathize with the struggles of women. 

By the way, recognizing that a population is oppressed, and naming and calling out their oppressors is not the same as "wanting to be the victim."

Erin

Re: Circumcision on a transgender forum - Missing the foreskin can, and often does, have a negative impact on the outcome of MTF GCS (so it is something that we should care about). (That's not saying that a circumcised transwoman cannot have a successful GCS - just that it probably won't be quite as good as if her foreskin hadn't been removed, and it also increases the chances of skin needed from elsewhere.)

Quote from: tgchar21 on May 19, 2017, 02:18:58 PM
Re: Circumcision on a transgender forum - Missing the foreskin can, and often does, have a negative impact on the outcome of MTF GCS (so it is something that we should care about). (That's not saying that a circumcised transwoman cannot have a successful GCS - just that it probably won't be quite as good as if her foreskin hadn't been removed, and it also increases the chances of skin needed from elsewhere.)

Lol nice point :D

Basically because most of the people at the top in terms of wealth and political power in the West are men, the conclusion made by feminists is that men are privileged and this basically results in no one giving a crap about the men at the bottom of society. Meaning the massive homeless population, the incarcerated, the poor, mentally ill. Alot of them will say that men's problems are down to not sharing emotions or something. Truth is nobody cares about men's emotions. Women don't care, other men don't care. The answer is man up and stop being a wimp. Every man learns this right down to his subconscious, and so learns to be reserved with feelings. I don't consider myself a man  but I'm male socialized and I haven't cried in 16 years and counting. Make of that what you will. But somehow I doubt I have disdain for femininity.  ::) 

Oh and PS, saying stuff like "Men go out at night more"  in response to "Men are murdered more often than women" is no different to responding "Women dress more trashy" to "Women are raped more than men". Both highly offensive victim blaming. So maybe be more careful in what you say before asserting that men experience no sexism.

intresting responses....

Quote from: JMJW on May 20, 2017, 07:40:36 PM
Basically because most of the people at the top in terms of wealth and political power in the West are men, the conclusion made by feminists is that men are privileged and this basically results in no one giving a crap about the men at the bottom of society. Meaning the massive homeless population, the incarcerated, the poor, mentally ill. Alot of them will say that men's problems are down to not sharing emotions or something. Truth is nobody cares about men's emotions. Women don't care, other men don't care. The answer is man up and stop being a wimp. Every man learns this right down to his subconscious, and so learns to be reserved with feelings. I don't consider myself a man  but I'm male socialized and I haven't cried in 16 years and counting. Make of that what you will. But somehow I doubt I have disdain for femininity.  ::) 

Oh and PS, saying stuff like "Men go out at night more"  in response to "Men are murdered more often than women" is no different to responding "Women dress more trashy" to "Women are raped more than men". Both highly offensive victim blaming. So maybe be more careful in what you say before asserting that men experience no sexism.

You are afraid to cry because of male socialisation based on unrealistic standards of masculinity, which are usually more enforced by men than women. Men are the ones that will beat you up for being a sissy. So it's not sexism, its the brutality of the patriarchy you're feeling there. And to say that people don't care about the incarcerated and the poor because they also care about women's issues is very short-sighted. As I've said before you can care about men's issues and womens issues at the same time just like you can care about the treatment of animals and human rights at the same time. Men are priveleged in the oppurtunities and respect they receive compared to women of a similar class, race etc as them. If you are a homeless man you are less privelaged than a man who is a ceo, and although a woman who is a ceo may have a harder time than the male ceo she is far more priveleged than the homeless man. That's logical.

Men are murdered more often than women. And this, yes, is partly because they put themselves in dangerous situations more because they are not taught constant oppressive fear and hyperawareness of their weaknesses like those socialised female are. In terms of combat deaths etc that is also because they are more easily allowed to put themselves into the dangerous situation that is the armed forces, which is a pretty sexist place, understandably because of the history of it only being men for a long time. But all of this doesn't mean I have no sympathy for men being murdered. Simply that problems that they have doesn't negate the fact that they hold almost all crucial positions of power in the world (which is the definition of a patriachy, shockingly), and that they do not respect women or people who display feminity in the same way they respect other men, and this causes problems for women. Over all, men have more oppurtunity.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 21, 2017, 08:51:40 AM
You are afraid to cry because of male socialisation based on unrealistic standards of masculinity, which are usually more enforced by men than women.

Firstly, being afraid to, implies choice, when I said what men learn - that nobody cares, goes right down to the subconscious. I physically cannot emotionally cry even if I wanted to. I know that's probably hard to understand for someone who started out with an estrogen based endocrine system. Second of all your conclusions contain middle class privilege. Crying with all that talking and therapy is a luxury. It doesn't help you eat the next day or pay your bills.

If it was within my choice to cry, look a few inches to the side to my avatar. I'm perfectly happy and able to go outside dressed like that. What makes you think I care about living up to unrealistic standards of masculinity enough to choose not to cry?   

Quote
Men are the ones that will beat you up for being a sissy. So it's not sexism, its the brutality of the patriarchy you're feeling there.

If men will beat you up, women are the ones who will just cut down your self esteem with a few choice words. As a general rule, men bully physically, women bully psychologically.
So they aren't receptive to sissies either. If they were, people socialized male would be able to share emotions with women more. Not the case. If anything men share emotions with women even less than with other men. Which is what has led to feminists saying men don't talk about their problems.   

QuoteAnd to say that people don't care about the incarcerated and the poor because they also care about women's issues is very short-sighted.

The "also" is incorrect so it's beginning from a false premise. They only care about women's issues. In fact they're talking about abolishing womens prisons altogether. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10015766/Isnt-it-time-to-abolish-most-womens-prisons.html

Yet they're still more than happy to pack male prisons to the rafters because of drug offences.

Also the suicide gap doesn't close in more feminist countries. In Sweden it's still about 3x more male suicides than women.


"As I've said before you can care about men's issues and womens issues at the same time "

You can, but people don't. Male Privilege automatically always brings the conversation back to women as it phrases women as more needy and in need of resources and attention at any given time. Leading people to the magical thinking of if women are helped enough, men's issues will disappear.

QuoteMen are murdered more often than women. And this, yes, is partly because they put themselves in dangerous situations more because they are not taught constant oppressive fear and hyperawareness of their weaknesses like those socialised female are.

So what, you're saying men are leading the killers on by going out at night? Not sexist at all.  ::)

Quote
  Simply that problems that they have doesn't negate the fact that they hold almost all crucial positions of power in the world (which is the definition of a patriachy, shockingly),

But they're voted in by women in the west, who in the west are the voting majority.

Quoteand that they do not respect women or people who display feminity in the same way they respect other men, and this causes problems for women. Over all, men have more oppurtunity.

The National Organization for Women favoured Obama over Hilary and Trump was voted in a great deal in part due to the female vote. Again, if women got behind a female candidate, the male vote cannot stop it.

As for more opportunity, men are out educated 2 to 1 as I'm sure you know, and women statistically out earn men until they reach age 40, where because of pregnancy, men overtake.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3214854/Pay-gap-Women-earn-men-till-40s-20-woman-paid-men-age-group-decade.html

Now there is a level, an upper, highest level of wealth that women seem to struggle to enter. However more women are entering this bracket over time which is unsurprising as it can't happen overnight without huge amounts of affirmative action. 

Even though you now present as a woman, crying was still something you may have been socialised out of. For me though, I also never cry in front of people never have, never will, hate it. Was socialised female. And I'm definitely not middle calss enough to expect people to therapise me, or to be able to pay for therapy. Tbh I don't ever want to talk to people when I'm upset. I'm not glorifying crying just presenting one possible argument.

Most feminine guys I know actually find very supportive female friendship groups. Yes, some women are bitches but the fact that they usually find themselves comfortably socialising with women and less so with men makes me feel that women are definitely less harsh over all on these issues.

I feel like a lot of people online have some crazy view of feminists based on some really radical unreasonable mad feminists they've heard of and somehow have decided those people are the prime representative of the group. Who the hell is actually listening to people who want to abolish womens prisons? That's actual insanity and I find it insulting that you would conflate me talking about womens issues with me or anyone with my views supporting the abloshment of women's prisons, when women obviously do crimes that they need to be locked up for. Do not fall into the trap as taking the extreme as the rule.

It's not really just going out at night is it? Its that their more likely to be involved in violence generally. Which is partly a socialisation thing and partly a testosterone thing and partly just the fact that men can be more confident in their brute force. Not telling them to stop taking risks, just saying theres possible correlation. Women just don't take the same risks mostly because they're scared, not because they're more sensible and therefore I'm saying they have some high ground over men for being more smart and avoiding being murdered or something. No they're just more scared.

Now in terms of voting. As we've established the majority of women aren't crazed feminists who try to ban women's prisons. Women are logical like anyone else. Obama was the best candidate for president in the two elections he ran in so any logical woman would vote for him. In the most recent election Hillary and Trump were both terrible candidates and the whole thing was a farce. I don't know what I would've done if I was an American and I had to vote in that thing. But I know that I have no love for Hilllary Clinton and so I don't see why American women would unless they were so basic that they would vote for her just for being a woman. You see it is very hard for a woman to rise up through the ranks to become a presidential candidate, and Hillary is one who has done it through the various fortunate oppurtunities she's had. But what would be preferable is if there were a a larger crop of women who had that capacity like there is with men. When that occurs, and that's what we really want, then perhaps we could get a female candidate who is worthy of the presidency. Hillary was not unworthy to female voters because she is a woman but because she is a prick and a very uncompelling candidate - no-one should vote in someone who's a bad candidate just to further a cause. Though no-one should vote for Trump either haha.

Oh and one last thing. Think about this "men experiencing sexism" thing this way. A black person making fun of white people is not the same as the whole system that America runs on being racist towards black people (let's add BLACK men to your talk of higher rates of incarceration). Feminists overlooking a mens issue when talking about womens issues is therefore not the same as the full force of the patriachy acting on them. For that reason I find both whining white people and men who claim that because they have issues the world is sexist towards them, a bit rich. (Side note: I am not as white as my profile picture - that's not me it's a guitarist - I'm mixed race)

Have to admit @JMJW the point about victim blaming. Im sorry if that sounded harsh, and never was my intention to blame victims. I just wanted to set in context the facts brought by some posters.

Anyway, I have to agree with @TomTuttle, @Dayta and some other posters: the issues faced by some men ARE NOT "sexism against men", are just the logical drawbacks of the actual sexism against women (name it machismo, male chauvinism or whatever).

There's a good reason that prisons are gender-segregated (which also ties into the discussion on where transgender people should be housed) that has nothing to do with gender stereotypes: To prevent procreation among prisoners.

Quote from: redhot1 on May 17, 2017, 08:47:02 PM
But why don't most people believe me and really look at how gender works in society?

They don't believe you because there's a prevalent current attitude that only women suffer in society; or that if men do suffer, it is in fact their own fault or the fault of other men. The concept of "Patriarchy" according to modern feminist thought ensures that everything is as it is because of Patriarchal oppression - because of men - and that women play no part in determining or shaping any part of that because they always have less power; any negative aspects therefore can always be laid at the door of men. As you can see in the comments.