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I'm not sure if I want to socially transition but I was curious, do most trans women socially transition before passing or wait until they feel that they are passing.  Or does that even matter? 

I've decided that since I have no idea whether I pass or not, I've become somewhat ambivalent to the whole idea.  Maybe even apathetic to the idea transitioning in general.  I look in the mirror and I have no idea what I see and I have no idea what other people see which has caused me to become extremely introverted lately. 

*Sigh

For me, I'm waiting until I pass before socially transitioning.  But my dysphoria is more body than social.     

As a UK girl at the mercy of the NHS,  social transition before HRT is basically a requirement.  I've been full-time now for a month and have just had a greenlight on HRT which I hope to start in a few weeks. It has enabled me to clearly measure the positive mental benefits of social transition without wondering if it was me or chemistry!

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This is highly individualistic and varies greatly to each extreme.  "Most" won't apply.

Some woman socially transition almost as soon as they "come-out" or discover themselves, others live in their male form for many months or even years of HRT and several surgical procedure until they socially transition while others never end-up socially transitioning but live on HRT in their male life.

Quote from: JillianC on May 26, 2017, 05:00:07 PM
For me, I'm waiting until I pass before socially transitioning.  But my dysphoria is more body than social.     

But how would you know you pass?  I guess that's what I am wondering.  Like, what would be the indicators, or what not.  I'm pretty dysphoric about my body as well, actually about everything  :-\

Quote from: meganjames2 on May 26, 2017, 05:02:04 PM
As a UK girl at the mercy of the NHS,  social transition before HRT is basically a requirement.  I've been full-time now for a month and have just had a greenlight on HRT which I hope to start in a few weeks. It has enabled me to clearly measure the positive mental benefits of social transition without wondering if it was me or chemistry!

Wow, that seems like such a archaic and unfair way for trans people to be able to get medical treatment.  Like you have to prove that you need it for a year before they give you anything.  Also, seems like it could possibly endanger someone who might live in areas that aren't so accepting.

Quote from: staciM on May 26, 2017, 05:08:13 PM
This is highly individualistic and varies greatly to each extreme.  "Most" won't apply.

Some woman socially transition almost as soon as they "come-out" or discover themselves, others live in their male form for many months or even years of HRT and several surgical procedure until they socially transition while others never end-up socially transitioning but live on HRT in their male life.

Sorry, maybe I worded the question wrong.  Adding "must" just made the sentence seem to flow better grammatically, lol.  Also, I totally understand that it is highly individualistic and I asked this since I'm going through a bit of a depressive rut.  Maybe I was hoping that there was some random comment that would spark a flash of lucid clarity. 

Quote from: Justarandomname on May 26, 2017, 05:13:57 PM
But how would you know you pass?  I guess that's what I am wondering.  Like, what would be the indicators, or what not.

I'm not really sure.  Probably when enough of my body appears feminine to me, like breast growth is obvious under shirts or my facial features soften and I have long enough hair to get a typical female hair cut and style.  I'm guessing the tipping point will be when I can feel confident/comfortable enough that it feels right.  Right now it feels fake/forced.

I don't believe it really matters. There are always people who know or figure it out... if socially transitioning is what you want, go for it. If "passing" is how you gauge it, then ask a trusted friend... they'll have to be your judge. We are our own worst critics. But I would say when you're comfortable with the idea that you have transitioned, then that would be the time to do it. Passing isn't the requisite for transitioning, it's a state of mind that you are you, and you're ready to correct people when they misgender you...

Being 62 years old, I may never pass completely.  So I am not waiting.  I socially transitioned as soon as I was sure that HRT was the right thing for me and my boobs were getting too big to hide under a male T-shirt.  (They aren't even an A-cup yet, but they are pretty noticeable.)

My benchmark for what I am aiming for in passing is pretty low.  I will be happy if people gender me correctly on first sight.  If they figure out I'm trans, I don't care, as long as they stay polite.

I'm not going to argue which way is best,  and choices vary on location too. I will say that when I see comments from some that the effects of their HRT force them to transition before they might be ready,  it does lend some value to the NHS approach; it's tough but it also builds a heck of alot of self confidence.

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HI justarandomname!!!


Pardon me for being a bit lazy... I am cutting and pasting this from a posting I wrote about 6 months ago to another forum member but it conveys my thoughts on the subject at hand....


Other people are always going to be an unknown in this equation... Wondering and worrying about how others view us ...Whether we are "passing" to those around us constantly can become a huge trap that is hard to escape from and can be the cause of a lot of misery if we let it...

I think you already know in your heart, the direction you must go to live a life that is truly your own and you may find, as you move ahead, that the need to be yourself and relate to others in the way you choose, may start to become more important than if you are passing, as a cis woman, 100% of the the time ...to 100% of the people....

Move forward with confidence in who you are.... A female ...who has a place in this world and a seat at the table of life just like everyone else... After a half century of living a life that was not who I was inside, I finally realized that I had the power to make my life what I chose and did so in short order... If I had waited to move ahead... Waiting for some far off day when I would feel 100% passable... I'd still be waiting!!!... I moved ahead with fulltime the month I started HRT.. Semi passable at best... But I had the confidence that comes with a life that is finally on the right course.... From that day until now, I have never had a bad experience with anyone because of I am a transwoman.... Here I am a few years later, finally connected to others and the world around me in a meaningful way and married to the greatest guy in the world!!!...

I think it is easy to fill in the blanks about how people will react or treat us with our worst fears and the reality is nothing even close to our fears...

I guess what all my blabbing here means is... Just be you ... dont let fear whisper in your ear too much!!!... You are holding the steering wheel of your life ... Hit the gas and steer things where you want them to go... Basing our success or failure on how others see us can easily turn an amazing journey into a decent into misery... I prefer amazing journey...

Onward we go brave girl...

Ashley :)

Completely agree with @tgirlamc.

Whether you may want to go at a faster or slower pace, just try to don't fall in those mind traps. I've seen people who even being the most passable ones still feel miserable and struggling.

Just be yourself (and pragmatic too).

I can't speak for the generalities, only myself.  I've made the decision that I really don't care if I'm "passing" or not.  I'll be socially transitioning (aka going full time) when I'm ready.  The way it's looking right now that is probably going to coincide with the date that I transition at work. That date still needs to be finalized with my employer but I set it based on when I thought I'd have enough body changes from HRT and other efforts that it would be difficult to continue hiding what is going on from my clients and co-workers.

I agree with what the others have said here, I think this is a more healthy approach.  Rather than getting so wrapped up in whether we "pass" or not, we should be more focused on when we feel comfortable going out.

I know we have this discussion in a lot of places, but honestly attitude is so much more important than passing in my opinion.  For instance, tonight, I walked into a Kohl's while presenting completely as male (and I definitely don't male fail yet).  Walked through the Juniors and Misses sections and picked out 3 pair of jeans.  They were very clearly women's jeans (one pair had bling on the pockets even).  They were the only items I had, I took them to the register and treated it no different than any other shopping experience.  The end result?  Not one person batted an eye, not one comment, not one snide look from anyone that I noticed, and the cashier handled it all in a typical fashion with no hit of shock or confusion.  To me, that's more important right now than whether or not people believe I'm a cis-woman when I'm out and about.

Never considered transitioning before passing. Never a RLE until post srs, ffs and ba. Linving my dreams and proud to be the third gender.

I have been dressing and in public since an early age. I have been passing  fairly well by appearance for years before starting transition. My social transition started roughly the same time. I couldn't wait and had to be my true self other wise I would be doing the big dirt nap right now.

Everyone is different and it really depends what state of mind your in. My case I had to and couldn't wait.

Huggs Niki Marie

If I ever socially transition it's going to be at the end of all the medical things, especially ffs. No way I'm trying it before then.

I figured for me that it really didn't matter, as I'm working in the same industry with many of the same people for up to 35 years now, so there's no "passing" for me.  I still have probably dozens of hours of facial electrolysis to go, my hairline is less than feminine, and I've only been on HRT for about 9 months now.  But clean-shaven, I feel reasonably confident with my look and am unwilling to wait until some nebulous point in the future when I might theoretically pass.  Even if I was to present sufficiently femme, the people who know me will always know my history.  I think I'd rather have them accepting me as I am now, cuz it's only going to get better.  If I wait, wait for what?  It's just another arbitrary point in time. 

Erin

Quote from: meganjames2 on May 26, 2017, 05:02:04 PM
As a UK girl at the mercy of the NHS,  social transition before HRT is basically a requirement. 

Haha yes this was my experience too with the NHS. The Way the NHS treats trans patients in general is pretty grim
and often humiliating. But even during HRT i'd say i didn't start passing until about 18 months to 2 years into my transition. I was full time from day 1 though. Noone was gonna stop me living the life i wanted and also importatly i think, building the identity i was moving into.

Social transition was, umm, some time before passing. When I decided to come out, I came right out. Mentally there was no other way.

Looking back at photos from then I think I can understand why some cis people called it "brave"!

It sounds like socially transitioning to some or most means RLE? To me socially transitioning has been a process over 2 decades of gradually moving to a more feminine response and mental outlook, basically changing my brain as much as possible without HRT. In terms of brass tacks, to me that meant and included letting go of male privilege, aggressive response etc. To be sure, it was also in the context of just trying to be a better person.

For me this was so very punctuated when I did begin estrogen, because the change from androgenic hormones probably accomplished more than I had done in all of those years prior.

I began RLE as soon as I started HRT. My RLE has consisted of going as far as I feel able to a non binary appearance and more importantly coming out to everyone I interact with about my gender and plans to transition.

Thank you everyone for the responses.  Definitely something to think about. 

If I had waited for the perfect moment when all the stars align and every one in the world sees me as 100,000% percent female, I would still be waiting.


. . . and for me that would have just been a terrible loss of what I can honestly say has been the best times of my life.

Part of my RLE was social transitioning.  I had HRT - Electrolysis - hair growing out - got a legal name change.  Was living as a woman except for work.  My final step was coming out and working as a woman.

Not sure about the "Passing" part in all this, that is also part of RLE.  I found that I was probably passing in that no one after a while would question my presentation.  And this was before my full social transition and full time at work.

Hi Justarandomname,

I feel just like you, "when do you know your passing?", and does it matter? To me, it does, since I live in a more conservative part of L.A., the southern portion, blue collar part, but when I go to Hollywood, I have no problems, not giving a rats behind. Passing does matter, depending on what part of the U.S. or world you live in, at least for me.
I guess you know your passing, when you start overhearing people, address you more like her, she, instead of him, that guy, or the derogatory it, or worse.

Don't know if that answered the question, but I think I get your drift.

Quote from: SonadoraXVX on May 28, 2017, 01:13:16 AM
Hi Justarandomname,

I feel just like you, "when do you know your passing?", and does it matter? To me, it does, since I live in a more conservative part of L.A., the southern portion, blue collar part, but when I go to Hollywood, I have no problems, not giving a rats behind. Passing does matter, depending on what part of the U.S. or world you live in, at least for me.
I guess you know your passing, when you start overhearing people, address you more like her, she, instead of him, that guy, or the derogatory it, or worse.

Don't know if that answered the question, but I think I get your drift.

Thank you Sonadora,

It matters to me as well and I feel the way you do.  For me, I try to avoid people as much as possible (And I still live, dress, and act male) and noticed that I usually don't get gendered at first.  I have heard the comments sometimes like "I thought that was a girl" or "was that a girl?" etc.  which was nice to hear but now has become annoying as it feels more like ridicule than anything else.  The thing is, I live in a pretty liberal area.

I guess I just wished that I could know definitively if I pass or not.  I will look at different mirrors, in different lighting, and either see nothing but all the glaring male traits or possible look female.  Even when I take photos, I only see the male traits so it does suck.

Quote from: Justarandomname on May 28, 2017, 06:02:19 AM
I guess I just wished that I could know definitively if I pass or not.

There is no such thing as definitively passing.  Even many cis women, in certain lighting, or with certain makeup, or certain clothes, or in certain situations, or when seen by certain people, do not pass.  Success is passing most of the time.

Quote from: KathyLauren on May 28, 2017, 06:22:58 AM
There is no such thing as definitively passing.  Even many cis women, in certain lighting, or with certain makeup, or certain clothes, or in certain situations, or when seen by certain people, do not pass.  Success is passing most of the time.

I dsagree... While it's true some ggs (I started when that was the terminology used in the community) OCCASIONALLY  MOMENTAIRLY get taken as male... VERY few are still taken that way upon closer examination/interaction...

As i see it, having that be the case is what true 'passing' is. I won't venture a guess on how many of those that want to blend seamlessly get to that place... I never did and it's been about 20 years since I transitioned.

Passing is a combination of looks, actions, how one moves , how one sounds (voice quality),  how one speaks (content not voice quality)  how one 'feels' to other people... ALL are import and and if anyone is too far out of expectations sony of those areas, one does draw more scrutiny and will be read by some people (What people key on most varies from person to person so one can pass to some but not to others)

So how does one know if one has gotten there?

It's very difficult to be 100% sure because most people will not say anything directly if they do read you or suspect out of politeness.

So you just have to live your life as best you can and try not to worry about it (easier said than done - particularly early on I know) and be sensitive to how other react/interact act with you...

After awhile you can get a sense from that of were you stand from the contrast of how different people interact with you.

I will say IMO one stands zero chance of getting there if you don't learn to integrate into society as a woman...IMO very few who transition past grade school will truly pass from day one  no matter how good they look without that socialization process...

So anyone who waits until they fully pass BEFORE going Full time will have a long wait indeed...

But i do think having electro at least mostly done and giving HRT reasonable time to work first is a good idea as a reasonable degree of passing is need to get the socialization as woman vs as a TS...

It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem, but at some point one needs to hatch and go out into the world to grow up...

- Karen

Justarandomname,

If you see male traits, like I see male traits in the mirror, then your male appearing, simple and clear, I hate to admit it. Have a girlfriend(friend) about 3 years ago, get a short male crewcut, no way if you see her from behind and from front without shades and with sweat, you would've say she is a man. In a hoodie, sitting in a car, with dark shades,  50/50 yea. If others name you male, your male appearing, hard and fast rule, but upon not seeing you well, then they scanned.

I personally am going for male-fail appearing,but that aint' working yet, after 4 years and 6 months of hrt, but I'm ok with that.

For myself, it was not a before or after question, but more like a before, middle then after type of situation.

My middle years were very androgynous. Sometimes I was called sir and other madam. It just depends on the situation.

I don't pass.  I know this because people who don't depend on me for their living (unlike salespeople wait staff, etc who expect me to pay for stuff and perhaps even tip) pretty consistently use male pronouns in reference to me in any contact closer than just walking past me on the street.

I am still attempting a social transition, at least among people who are more accepting than most.  Frankly, social transition and integration is necessary before I will pass, as my social behavior is not yet fully matching the cultural norms for the female role.

I'm getting my therapist letter for HRT this Thursday. It will probably take another couple of weeks before I actually get the hormones. And I'm also starting laser hair removal on Saturday. No way in hell I would even try social transitioning at this point, I'm remaining a "man" for the next few months while all of this falls into place, I'm also letting my hair grow.

In my head I think I will probably transition socially around this time next year, but I've heard from girls who wanted to wait as well but then transitioned just a few months into hormones. I don't know if this will happen to me, but I definitely want to wait until I am more feminine looking.

When I first began the process I told myself that I wouldn't socially transition until I pass. My biggest hangups are my thin hair & facial/body hair. Now that I've been in hrt for a month and a half I'm starting to get SO impatient. I've seen improvement in those areas but I just don't feel quite ready yet. Hopefully a couple more months of waiting and a little more laser removal and I'll be good to go. I really should spend the next few weekends hitting thrift stores and a couple clothing outlets to bolster my wardrobe, and make appointments to get my ears pierced & eyebrows shaped in preparation.

On top of that, my wife if just finishing up with graduate school and is about 2 months pregnant, so my transition has also been forced to the background behind those events, something that I'm becoming increasingly bitter & resentful over.

Thank you for the replies and the thought provoking answers.  I find that the idea of passing is such a divisive and difficult question to tackle since it seems like something that is very individualistic.  I noticed that my when my confidence is shot and my mood somber, it has a huge impact on how I view myself.  As for passing, I have to admit that most days, I don't care but when my depression sets in, everything seems hopeless and I feel incredibly ugly.

I do agree though that passing is not just about physical attributes but many other things as well.  I have a cis female co-worker who I thought was trans at first (she's 6'2, has a low voice, masculine facial features) but there are other female co-workers that could shave their hair bald and never be mistaken for anything other than cis.

Anyway...this was taken half a year ago (I rarely take photos) http://imgur.com/yrbAvwn (http://imgur.com/yrbAvwn) and I see nothing but male features.

I'm sorry that I didn't get to reply to every post but I think that the idea of passing is a difficult beast to tackle and I just want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences and feedback. 

You look gorgeous!!!... I think for you the battle of "passing" is going to prove to be more internal than the external... All will be well my friend!!!

Onward we go brave sister!!!

Ashley :)

Quote from: Justarandomname on May 30, 2017, 12:35:08 PM
Thank you for the replies and the thought provoking answers.  I find that the idea of passing is such a divisive and difficult question to tackle since it seems like something that is very individualistic.  I noticed that my when my confidence is shot and my mood somber, it has a huge impact on how I view myself.  As for passing, I have to admit that most days, I don't care but when my depression sets in, everything seems hopeless and I feel incredibly ugly.

I do agree though that passing is not just about physical attributes but many other things as well.  I have a cis female co-worker who I thought was trans at first (she's 6'2, has a low voice, masculine facial features) but there are other female co-workers that could shave their hair bald and never be mistaken for anything other than cis.

Anyway...this was taken half a year ago (I rarely take photos) http://imgur.com/yrbAvwn (http://imgur.com/yrbAvwn) and I see nothing but male features.

I'm sorry that I didn't get to reply to every post but I think that the idea of passing is a difficult beast to tackle and I just want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences and feedback.

Girl...what the heck are you even talking about? That picture screams WOMAN to me, and I'm not saying this to make you feel better; I honestly believe it, if I didn't I would just remain silent about your pic. I agree with tgirlamc, the struggle is mostly in your head, if that was a year and a half ago and you are still taking hormones, you probably look even prettier and more feminine now. You have to do your social transition ASAP, what are you waiting for?!

It's more difficult to pass with your hair pulled back instead of surrounding your face however you can pull off either look. You are ready to go full time whenever you want.

Quote from: Justarandomname on May 30, 2017, 12:35:08 PM
Anyway...this was taken half a year ago (I rarely take photos) http://imgur.com/yrbAvwn (http://imgur.com/yrbAvwn) and I see nothing but male features.

You look like the sister of Agent May of Agents of Shield!

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSeki7-4GbCEnLNYbftLHInIsd-fOqsyLNHgWqfbHZZAiGMTIXMxg)

Ok so who is the woman in the picture...ahhhh its you!!...You look great in that 6 month old picture...Would love to see an updated picture?

For me, I'm not going full time until I look the way I want. If I can't get to that point, I won't go full time. For me all my dysphoria is centered around my face.


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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 30, 2017, 10:26:50 AM
In my head I think I will probably transition socially around this time next year, but I've heard from girls who wanted to wait as well but then transitioned just a few months into hormones. I don't know if this will happen to me, but I definitely want to wait until I am more feminine looking.

This was pretty much my original plan last year, but the two things that changed my mind had nothing to do worth passing.  1) I was concerned about potential revisions to federal laws making it more difficult to get ID documents changed and 2) my doctor offered to write me a letter.  There are many reasons to accelerate or to delay.  One ought to be prepared to change course if either concern or opportunity presents itself.  Be flexible.

Erin

Here's the thing -- what is the point of transition?  There's no one answer to this.  For me, though, the point was to be gendered female, by myself and others.  Because male gendering was going to lead to a very bad place.  So.

So, my plan was to transition socially after addressing my passing issues -- facial hair, facial structure, and voice.  These are the still the baseline things almost all of us need to do to get female gendering.  Though, as Karen points out, there's still a lot of socialization to catch up on and develop.  It still takes the baseline passing issues, though, to even get that opportunity!

Hormones didn't do very much for me in this respect. Good thing, then, I started electrolysis and voice retraining immediately, and started raising money for the facial surgery, which happened about 16 months into transition.

But in the meantime, what do we do?  Because I tell you, once I committed to getting female gendering, that made the attendant dysphoria with the male gendering I was getting so much worse.  So of course I had to transition socially, as soon as possible, in as many social milieus as possible.  I did manage to have the restraint to not transition on the job until all financing was secured, but everywhere else I was just me.  Just me.  And that is such a relief.

It makes sense, very good sense, to pass first and then transition.  And a tremendous amount of discipline.  Even so, it's going to be messy, there will be mistakes, but this is to be expected when it comes to learning something.  But don't worry -- as the word suggests, transition itself is temporary. 

Muddle through, move on... and live a woman's life.

i think it depends on the person.  I wanted to wait until I had most of my facial hair gone to go fulltime, but at 9 months I did with about half my beard left.  My dysphoria was more social than physical and decided to just do it, shave everyday, and be ok with looking trans.

For me, it was never a requirement in my eyes.

My best friend who is cis-female, who guided me in the world of female, always treated me as a girl when I was dressed. She showed me a lot of social queues or things women just know.. you like.. how to sit when wearing a skirt.. I never noticed before sitting a woman always brushes her hand down her skirt before sitting on a chair to stop creasing.

When I was full time.. well that became permanent.. I never really made any other female friends before I went full time due to my shyness.. full time seemed to solve this. I learned quickly to socialize as one of the girls.

I pretty much came out way before. I can get by pretty well if I put a lot of effort in makeup and so on. Initially I wanted to wait until 6 month on HRT but then people started noticing and asking about all the  changes, so I ended up just going for it. Might also make it easier while I am still in this awkward in-between stage...

Most of us don't pass.  Given enough attention, the anatomic features associated with our natal sex are noticeable.  Some of this can be mitigated by hormones or surgery, but much of it is permanent, at least for those who transitioned in adulthood. 

Fortunately, most people we interact with either aren't on the lookout for our cross gender traits or don't really care about them if they notice. 

Passing, like beauty, is a combination of genetic privilege, practice and self-confidence.  We can all benefit from the latter two, but considering passing to be a prerequisite for various aspects of gender transition is a form of self harm.  Take care of yourself first and foremost.  What others think affects us, but shouldn't control us.

Quote from: tgirlamc on May 30, 2017, 01:19:32 PM
You look gorgeous!!!... I think for you the battle of "passing" is going to prove to be more internal than the external... All will be well my friend!!!

Onward we go brave sister!!!

Ashley :)

Thank you Ashley, that was so nice.  Lots of internal battles to contend with. lol

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 30, 2017, 01:43:31 PM
Girl...what the heck are you even talking about? That picture screams WOMAN to me, and I'm not saying this to make you feel better; I honestly believe it, if I didn't I would just remain silent about your pic. I agree with tgirlamc, the struggle is mostly in your head, if that was a year and a half ago and you are still taking hormones, you probably look even prettier and more feminine now. You have to do your social transition ASAP, what are you waiting for?!

Thank you, I still don't see female, just the male traits in myself.  I guess every photo and reflection remind of who I was before hrt.  lol, thank you but I'm far from pretty or feminine looking.   

Quote from: Karen_A on May 30, 2017, 06:04:44 PM
You look like the sister of Agent May of Agents of Shield!

That is such a great show!  And May, she just kicks so much butt!

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 30, 2017, 06:39:40 PM
Ok so who is the woman in the picture...ahhhh its you!!...You look great in that 6 month old picture...Would love to see an updated picture?

Thank you.  I wish I had a bit more confidence about these things but personally, I think I look awful.  (Sorry, I meant to say that the picture is with 1.5 years hrt.  I'm currently at 2+ years hrt.)

Quote from: Dena on May 30, 2017, 04:17:25 PM
It's more difficult to pass with your hair pulled back instead of surrounding your face however you can pull off either look. You are ready to go full time whenever you want.

I have no idea what I should do with my hair since it's still somewhat short but I've noticed that hair makes such a huge difference in how people are gendered. 

Quote from: RavenMoon on May 30, 2017, 07:13:44 PM
For me, I'm not going full time until I look the way I want. If I can't get to that point, I won't go full time. For me all my dysphoria is centered around my face.

I feel the same way about going full time. 

Anyway, I didn't expect so this post would actually get any attention so I just want to thank everyone for sharing their insights and experiences.  This thread has been enlightening and a bit depressing in a way but also uplifting in the way that you raze and destroy, then rebuild, starting with a stronger foundation.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on May 31, 2017, 06:08:50 AM
So, my plan was to transition socially after addressing my passing issues -- facial hair, facial structure, and voice.  These are the still the baseline things almost all of us need to do to get female gendering.  Though, as Karen points out, there's still a lot of socialization to catch up on and develop.  It still takes the baseline passing issues, though, to even get that opportunity!

I agree that having electro done, some work on voice and being on HRT for awhile really a minimum to have a chance at starting to get female socialization....

But your list is a very tall order for more than few... and life is short...

You include FFS (facial structure), something that  many can't afford it on a reasonable timeline.

Also I think it's difficult (too say the least) for most to get voice down WITHOUT being full time...

Also while HRT results can be subtle they still matter a lot too...

My HRT results were pretty minimal in terms of my overall shape (next to no breast development, fat did not go to my hips and back side) and I have big frame- broad shoulders, wide chest etc... yet after about a year on HRt with an androgynous hairstyle dressed as male I was often taken as female my strangers- it surprised the heck out of people with me did not realize the slow change.

My point was not that no work was required up front, but that few will pass 100% from day 1 full time no matter how hard they try... It does take experience to ground down the rough edges... experience that i hard to get switching back and forth.

I understand the fear for some in taking that step (I had it in spades) ... but getting stuck waiting for everything to be perfect can be crazy making...

Once one gets to a reasonable point, particularly if one is not likely to fired (most these days I think try to transition on the job initially), waiting for (perceived) perfection can be counter productive ... of course all that is IMO.

- Karen

Quote from: Karen_A on May 31, 2017, 06:38:19 PMBut your list is a very tall order for more than few... and life is short...

You include FFS (facial structure), something that  many can't afford it on a reasonable timeline.

Also I think it's difficult (too say the least) for most to get voice down WITHOUT being full time...

Also while HRT results can be subtle they still matter a lot too...

Yeah, I really should include HRT.  It does, over time, smooth out some rough edges (especially around the face), and some breast growth is better than none at all.  More important, though, imo, are the psychological effects -- in particular, estradiol and progesterone have really made me much more emotionally open, both in terms of social engagement and self reflection, and that's also so very important when it comes to socialization.

But yes, my list is a tall order.  Which is fair -- passing is a tall order!  Sadly, I think it's still true for most transitioners these days, for there's still so very many more of us who are long past our teenaged years.  If you want to pass in the long-term, it's going to take all three.  Well, four, including HRT.

Then, let the transsexing begin.

QuoteMy point was not that no work was required up front, but that few will pass 100% from day 1 full time no matter how hard they try... It does take experience to ground down the rough edges... experience that is hard to get switching back and forth.

I understand the fear for some in taking that step (I had it in spades) ... but getting stuck waiting for everything to be perfect can be crazy making...

Once one gets to a reasonable point, particularly if one is not likely to fired (most these days I think try to transition on the job initially), waiting for (perceived) perfection can be counter productive

This is also a very good point -- and to be clear, I'm not advocating perfection.  And I'm not talking 100% passing on Day One, either, because that's just not going to happen -- even if your presentation is flawless, there will be people on Day One who know your story, and just aren't going to be able to see beyond their own memories.

But I do think one can reasonably identify the crucial components to passing and make significant changes in one's presentation before going full time in such a way as to minimize (not eliminate) the amount of misgendering one receives at that point, and hence the amount of dysphoria and subsequent heartache one has to endure during transition itself.  And I still think it's a wise decision to do so before coming out at work. 

QuoteAlso I think it's difficult (too say the least) for most to get voice down WITHOUT being full time...

I think it's difficult for most to get voice down, period. 

From my experience, accurately judging how well you're passing is really hard. Some days I feel super confident and feel like I "nailed" that day and other days I feel like utter rubbish and am convinced that everyone sees right through me because I am so dysphoric. Then one day you are told through a friend that your mutual trans friend is always so jealous of your passing privilege and suddenly it's like, "Oh! Maybe I do pass... ?"

I think ultimately, so much of it comes down to your state of mind. For me, I was on hormones for 6 months before I (accidentally) went full time but if I had waited until I was sure I would pass, I'd probably still be waiting and I would have missed over a year of feeling so happy, meeting so many new people and forging so many great memories!!

Sometimes I guess it comes "naturally".
The confidence you will exhale as a woman and the social construction that is feminity will echoes to people around you when the will see that in you. When people will call you miss, you transition socially the easy way, smoothly.
That's for the "outer" factors.

when in comes to how you feel the "inner factors" I guess it depends on the goal, where you set the bar, what a woman is to you and how much of a woman you think YOU need to be to be treated as such. It is very subjective and up to you.

LoveLuvLv.
Kael.

I am at the point where I am questioning how to come out to people around me soon. Only my wife and therapist know my "little secret"... I have a few months yet to think and I believe I am going to wait until I male-fail possibly, so that I have "nowhere to hide" but to sigh and let it out to everyone anyway. Or I am even considering transitioning away from everyone in a far place/another country and come back much later on, if ever.

I agree with many of the comments here that we should do our best to NOT postpone being who we are, but I think there are a few things that can be done to help passing before even HRT starts. Such as working on the skin, voice, mannerism. These alone can give a huge boost to passing, and will give you a head start to living life as a woman. Maybe this is what is done in UK, even something harsh being imposed in order to receive treatment, allows the person to get a glimpse of living as the other gender. So if passing is your pre-requisite (as is mine) for transitioning, then make sure that you master the "preliminary tasks" first.

Good luck with whichever way you choose :*

I have to admit that I had some trouble forming an answer to this question. As I slowly come out to family and friends, they will undoubtedly see the effects of the endless hours of laser and electrolysis, the ever lengthening hair, the changing wardrobe and the results of hours of voice training. I still do not "pass" yet but, at the same time, they see a much less masculine person than what they were used to. It's all parts of the package that'll hopefully come together until, one day, most of my masculine traits and features will disappear from my physical and social presentation. I'm seriously considering FFS in a couple of years time to assist my "passing" although many family members say that I don't need it. (I don't believe them!) I hope, by then, it'll be just icing on the cake of a transition that will already be well advanced.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on May 31, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
More important, though, imo, are the psychological effects -- in particular, estradiol and progesterone have really made me much more emotionally open, both in terms of social engagement and self reflection, and that's also so very important when it comes to socialization.

This was my observation as well.  In the first six months or so, I felt like a somewhat broader emotional palette was available to me.  I definitely noticed reduced aggressivity, mostly manifesting as a increased willingness to let a situation unfold before intervening, adding my 2 cents, etc.  It seemed to me that these were real changes.

Over time, however, I think my personality traits have more or less flexed back toward my pre-treatment baseline.  At one point I seriously considered the possibility that my levels had fallen (they hadn't) or that I had gotten a bad vial.  I still think that I process somewhat differently than I did a few years ago, but what with the accumulation of life experience, ongoing counseling, more time spent living as female, I don't really know how much to ascribe to hormones.   In my case, the effects have been far more subtle than what I so commonly see described here.