Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I always worried about being too tall. (5' 11") But since being post-op and dating a lot, I am finding that men (and gay women) love tall women. (Of course, the ones who don't would probably not be dating me.)

I even get comments about how nice my broad shoulders are. Of course, it helps to be in good shape too and the BA helped too. If someone had told me five years ago that straight men would be this enchanted with my bod, I would have thought they were crazy, out of their mind, total loon!

So if you are tall, don't sweat it. Be proud!

yea, turns out my flaw maybe actaully an admiration to other people. I'm actaully not very tall, sort of for a women but not really 5 6.5''
We seem to over anaylze ourselves sometimes.

I wouldn't want to be tall. I'm glad I'm 5' 7"....

I'm only 5'10" and worried that I'm too short. So I always wear 3-inch heels.

Not everywhere.  Here in Bulgaria tall women are marginalised and treated like oddities It's a quick red flag of being transsexual.  I'm lucky to be 5'8'' but even so some peeps sometimes take a double look at me because of my height.

In the US being tall is a major asset for women, as long as its not too tall.  5'7"-6'0" you are in this fantasy land of American ideals of beauty for females, especially if you are skinny.  Yeah.  I pass here at 5'9" because I am tall, but not too tall and I am benifiting from how screwed up American culture is (size 6 and very very skinny).  I would be more worried if my hands were large and my feet were large but I am a 9 1/2-10 womens and I have small hands (was remarked by somebody who was cisgender who knew I was trans...you don't have mens hands at all).  The screwed up thing...the standard size in the US, 6, is literally a body and height exactly like mine.  I realized why many women complain about cloths, but I am a HUGE benefactor of this ideal.
US ideals of beauty run tall.  Here it equals sexy.  Not everywhere though.  I have come to realize I am okay in the US and Canada which have these cultural ideals of tall skinny women being attractive.  It has also made me have to get used to things...like the fact is many people see me as attractive, even though I just see an overly skinny rail of a woman with not enough curves.

I'm 5 foot 11 1/2 tall, size 6, 34C, so I'm very skinny, my shoulder are not broad either, so I guess I'm in the sweet spot for beauty in the western world :-).

I'm 6'4" -  and I think the only reason I was ever worried about how tall I was is that I was scared that no-one would ever see me as a girl. I live in Australia, and while there do seem to be quite a lot of taller women going about the place, its not like you see many girls as tall as me. And it has so not been an issue.

Given though, I am as skinny as a rake (I wear a size 10, which I think is a 6 in the US?), and after 20 months of hormones my body has a decent shape to it now. I have pretty big hands and feet and my sholders are kind of big as well, but really considering how tall I am it would look kind of weird if I had tiny hands and feet. Really, what it comes down to is that I think I look fantastic and I couldnt care less if someone thinks that me being this tall is a little weird. Its not like I had a choice or anything, is it?

I do find it weird though, when I get other women telling me how much they wish they could be as tall as I am. Certainly not what I was expecting :).

Megan

Quote from: Keira on November 24, 2007, 06:51:44 PM

I'm 5 foot 11 1/2 tall, size 6, 34C, so I'm very skinny, my shoulder are not broad either, so I guess I'm in the sweet spot for beauty in the western world :-).

Sorry, without the broad shoulders, you don't fit quite fit the Aryan Goddess Mystique :)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.swapsale.com%2FAmazon_Picture_2.jpg&hash=00974e7c3fb5c5abeea17eaf975ab9d450916de8)

Posted on: November 24, 2007, 07:18:17 PM

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Quote from: Amy T. on November 24, 2007, 06:15:56 PM
In the US being tall is a major asset for women, as long as its not too tall.  5'7"-6'0" you are in this fantasy land of American ideals of beauty for females, especially if you are skinny.  Yeah.  I pass here at 5'9" because I am tall...

My suspicion is if one is tall, blonde AND beautiful... it doesn't matter if one is 6'6" One of the most beautiful women I have ever seen naked was this young lady (cisgendered or possibly TS with FFS and GRS) I saw in the locker room a few weeks back. She was absolutely stunning and she was at least 6'4" if not 6'6".  But if you are tall and trans, you gotta have that fabulous face.  Boobs and long, well-toned legs help too.

Before I started transition, in my case, by seeing a gender therapist, I decided that I was happy with whatever La Dame Estrogen would give me.  I was already 5 ft, 11.5 in tall and I had neither desire nor delusion that I would become smaller or petite.

I have the C-cup breasts that I hoped for because my chest measures 46 inches.

I have a waist that I am in the course of defining with a corset.  I am looking for 36 inches or less, preferably less.

My hips, they're around 47 inches at the fullest part.

My legs have a natural curve and that is fine by me.

My hair is all my own, no help from the outside, and I have none on my arms, legs, or body.

I am grateful for how My Creator has made me to be.

I am not concerned about what others think about my appearance.  I am happy and so is my soulmate and lifepartner, Cindy, and that is all that counts with me.


Wing Walker
Opening on Guts

Quote from: MeganRose on November 24, 2007, 07:02:39 PM
I'm 6'4" -  and I think the only reason I was ever worried about how tall I was is that I was scared that no-one would ever see me as a girl. I live in Australia, and while there do seem to be quite a lot of taller women going about the place, its not like you see many girls as tall as me. And it has so not been an issue.

Given though, I am as skinny as a rake (I wear a size 10, which I think is a 6 in the US?), and after 20 months of hormones my body has a decent shape to it now. I have pretty big hands and feet and my sholders are kind of big as well, but really considering how tall I am it would look kind of weird if I had tiny hands and feet. Really, what it comes down to is that I think I look fantastic and I couldnt care less if someone thinks that me being this tall is a little weird. Its not like I had a choice or anything, is it?

I do find it weird though, when I get other women telling me how much they wish they could be as tall as I am. Certainly not what I was expecting :).

Megan

That would be an 8, which considering your height is pretty small.

You really don't need a perfect face or big breasts.  Kind of a misnomer if you ask me.  But over a certain height 6 ft, certain things can become necessities, but not all the time.  To tell you the truth I know a woman, non-trans, exact same height, frame, build, breast size, etc.  Face is different, but I have never really have issues passing unless somebody is really trans aware.  And yes I have clocked women even when they had FFS based solely on height (I noticed the scars, which even on you Melissa are obvious, but you need to know what to look for, most people can't tell).  If a woman is over 6 feet tall I start suspecting things, largely because most transwomen tower over me and natal women over 6 foot are exceptionally rare.  FFS or not...it stands out just as much as the face for me, as does hand size (something more women pay attention to then most transpeople realize, but you can't change the size of your hands).

Melissa you have an over the top idea of passing and what you consider is necessary.  Its not necessary for everybody.  Some tall women would just look absolutely silly with big breasts, myself included.  The truth is on a frame like mine anything over a B cup becomes burdensome, and over C presents health issues, especially considering the fact I have major back problems.  Big breasts are not for all women.  Some people may have height, but still have small frames that can't really support big breasts.

Also with faces.  There is more range to the female face than what Ousterhouse and you think.  Its one of his major faults.  You don't need to look beautiful to look female or to pass, even if your tall.  I am not arguing that FFS is not necessary for some or that tweaking is not necessary for some, but the works, is only necessary for a handful.  It takes less to pass then most people realize and I have seen some beautiful women put off full time based on some of these thoughts and people espousing ideas like yours to get FFS because they thought they didn't pass, when they often did. 

Quote from: Hypatia on November 24, 2007, 11:33:25 AM
I'm only 5'10" and worried that I'm too short. So I always wear 3-inch heels.

In the U.K 5' 10 would be incredably tall.....most genetic women here are about 5' 5" or less and I feel tall at 5' 7".......I never wear heels as I don't want to stand out.

I've seen some Germans on the train in London and they are very tall, both men and women, so I imagine the American population are tall as well?

I think a lot of transsexuals are tall. I went to a meeting in London where there were a lot of transsexuals and it was like 'land of the giants'.....they all looked so odd.....I felt so pleased I was little and more like the height of the few genetic female's that were there...

Germans are not that tall.
The stereotypical German women
is not that tall, but sturdy, which is not the same thing.

US women are 5 foot 5 in the under 30 white female
If you want tall, go to the netherland, where the
overall average is 5.7, and its about 5 foot 8 in the
under 25 population (men of that age are over 6 foot tall!!).
In the netherland, there's 5% of under 25 women over 6 foot,
I kid you not!
So, if your TS worried about your size, move to
the Netherland and voila, no problem :-).

Quote from: Keira on November 25, 2007, 05:17:48 AM

Germans are not that tall.
The stereotypical German women
is not that tall, but sturdy, which is not the same thing.

US women are 5 foot 5 in the under 30 white female
If you want tall, go to the netherland, where the
overall average is 5.7, and its about 5 foot 8 in the
under 25 population (men of that age are over 6 foot tall!!).
In the netherland, there's 5% of under 25 women over 6 foot,
I kid you not!
So, if your TS worried about your size, move to
the Netherland and voila, no problem :-).

Well, whoever they were and where ever they came from, they were blonde and very very tall, both the 2 girls and 2 guys! they all must have been over 6 feet tall....

I don't think I'm that tall at 5' 7"....

This thread isn't about "passing"  (why does every thread here seem to gravitate to that?) or about sour grapes regarding Dr. Ousterhout, or rationalizations that stem from not being able to afford FFS, it's about being sexy. Obviously, a pretty face is part of being sexy. Homely ain't sexy.

Hi Berliegh hon, I pray everything is well with you on this wonderful day.

Well now I am 5' 3" / 125lbs, ya just a slightly chubby Hobbit. Dress size 8, 36B
Brown coppery hair mid back length.
And Jar Jar Binks is my best friend, fastest tongue in the west.

Cindy

Quote from: Keira on November 25, 2007, 05:17:48 AM

Germans are not that tall.
The stereotypical German women
is not that tall, but sturdy, which is not the same thing.

US women are 5 foot 5 in the under 30 white female
If you want tall, go to the netherland, where the
overall average is 5.7, and its about 5 foot 8 in the
under 25 population (men of that age are over 6 foot tall!!).
In the netherland, there's 5% of under 25 women over 6 foot,
I kid you not!
So, if your TS worried about your size, move to
the Netherland and voila, no problem :-).

Actually average height for a female in the US is around 5'6" but the range is MUCH wider here.  What has brought down the average height is increased asian and latino populations.  Average white women here is around 5'7" and the average black female is around 5'8", and in both population groups there is a significant variation in height based even further on ethnicity (eastern europeans/germanic/irish often running much taller).  Basically the height range in the US is signficantly larger then most places.  If you look at what is called the 99% factor, what falls in that 99% is taller in the US then it is in the UK.  Here the breakoff point is 5'11", anything taller it becomes increasingly rare.  There is significant percentages at 5'8", 5'9" and 5'10" as well.  I should know I work in an office where every woman is 5'7" or taller. 

Yes, tall women are considered sexy by some people.  I guess we come in different sizes, shapes and colors and each one of us is sexy to someone.  Like beauty, sexiness is also in the eye of the beholder... ;)  I'm 5'7" and no, I don't want to be taller.. thank you very much!

tink :icon_chick:

I'm 6' 0" tall so I hope tall women are sexy.

I'm only 5'10", wish I could be taller. (sigh) I have everything else needed to be sexy but I only made the 98th percentile or whatever. I used to be 5'11½" but shrank since i started HRT. Recently I've had to move the seat in my car a couple of notches forward for my feet to reach the pedals comfortably.

Amy, I've looked at the stats, and the average for under 30 female white women is 5.5, not more. First generation asian women are around 5 foot tall, but I didn't include them.

There is no where in the US where women on average are close to 5 foot 8 like in the netherland. Nowhere.

I was six foot four like Megan!
Actually I still am I think!
Its hard being tall (like finding shoes that fit!)
But it does have its advantages!
Like long sexy legs....The guys luv it!
The women are jealous that such abody is for real!
Since Im above average IM pretty Hot.
But short women can be sexy too!
I suppose...
Im joking! It comes down to peoples opinions of what is sexy me thinks!

5'9'' here and that's enough.

I'm tall.  It's nice sometimes.  Sometimes it's not.  My main issue is I wish I had smaller feet so I could have more shoe options.  But whatever.

Why would you shrink once you started HRT?  Your bones don't typically shrink, unless it's through aging.  Or I guess I've heard stories about truckers shrinking because of the stress of their spine causes their bones to deteriorate.

I'm 5'8" which is pretty average over here. I know a lot of women that are taller than me or if smaller, not by much.

Quote from: Keira on November 25, 2007, 07:34:54 PM

Amy, I've looked at the stats, and the average for under 30 female white women is 5.5, not more. First generation asian women are around 5 foot tall, but I didn't include them.

There is no where in the US where women on average are close to 5 foot 8 like in the netherland. Nowhere.

Keira, I looked at the stats too. I see 5'6" repeatedly, sometimes 5'7".  So it depends where you look.  You also have to remember US statistics include Hispanic women as part of Caucasian, it is part of the reason the average dropped in the US as a whole, for years it went between 5'6" and 5'7" then dropped largely because of Hispanic women coming into the US.  They are shorter.

Trust me living here the reality is the median height is closer to 5'6" or 5'7".  Averages only matter for much when you don't have a wide height range that you find in the US.  The fact is when you look at the statistical breakdown (percentages per height), there  are significant numbers (generally from 2-5%) at every height from 4'9" to 5'11" in the US and then the numbers fall off a cliff. The largest grouping though, is at 5'6" and 5'7" for US women.    Yeah, I actually bothered to look at these statistics in detail, along with the analysis.    The reason why I mention 99% is for good reason.  99% of women in the US fall between 4'9" and 5'11".  Its when you get to 6' that numbers start to decrease rapidly and you fall into decimal point territory, most heights over 6' cannot even be measured statistically. 

Also most African-American women are taller. 5'7"/5'8" is pretty close to their average height.   
I found out I lost an inch and a half tonight.  5' 7 1/2".  HRT kind of shrunk me.  Realized this when my eyes were at mouth level with a transguy friend who is 5'9" that I used to stand eye level with.   Just measured the height.  I guess I am not that tall anymore.

All this statistical crap is meaningless. People don't go around with a tape measure seeing how tall people are and sexiness surely isn't gauged with a tape measure. People don't go around seeing a woman and "Say, look at that tall sexy women but oh she looks over 5'11"...why that's beyond the statistical norm, must be something wrong here!"

But I guess what it boils down to is that sexy women are sexy regardless of how tall or short they are and unsexy women just aren't sexy tall or short either.

Yes, you can shrink on HRT, and it has nothing to do with getting older.  It happens to alot of young women on HRT, so it has very little to do with age.  The bones themselves don't change, but the cartilage and the muscle does.  It is VERY normal to shrink as a result of HRT.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on November 25, 2007, 10:16:59 PMWhy would you shrink once you started HRT? 

All I know is I used to be 5'11½" and now I'm 5'10". When I started wearing women's shoes before HRT, my size was 10½. Now it's 9½--making it much easier to buy footwear now. :) My bra band size has gone down from 40 to 38 while my cup size increased from A to B. Not to mention my dress size went down from 18 to 14. I now wear size L tops whereas before I couldn't squeeze my shoulders and ribcage into anything smaller than XL. So in general my body is shrinking.

Most likely, its due to posture.
A small variation in posture, makes a big difference
in height. Just look at people trying to find actresses and models height from photographs, its almost impossible because they
seemingly are always in a different posture.

I can vary an inch easily just by contracting my core muscles.
Only if your against a wall and measured by someone else can
you know for sure.
I noticed I have a tendency to slouch (maybe from looking at the ground for years) and just a better posture put me 2 inch taller!!

I'm 1m82, but I rarely was 1.82 on most days since I had such bad posture.

im 5'9ish, and 6ft in 3inch heels, but after going to a pendulum gig with the University's students union education officer, a friend of mine, (shes 5'10) we did laugh at all the short girls struggling to see... plus guys take more notice when the adverisment is bigger ;)
R :police:

Quote from: Keira on November 26, 2007, 06:09:45 AM

Most likely, its due to posture.
A small variation in posture, makes a big difference
in height. Just look at people trying to find actresses and models height from photographs, its almost impossible because they
seemingly are always in a different posture.

I can vary an inch easily just by contracting my core muscles.
Only if your against a wall and measured by someone else can
you know for sure.
I noticed I have a tendency to slouch (maybe from looking at the ground for years) and just a better posture put me 2 inch taller!!

I'm 1m82, but I rarely was 1.82 on most days since I had such bad posture.

Its not due to posture Keira.  The loss in height of 1-2 inches is pretty common for those transitioning or transitioned.  It does not happen to everybody, but it does happen. 

yeah, i WAS 5'11, and im 5'9 now, standing up straight, its NOT my posture, just like my voice apparently just changed how i use it from male to female kiera  ::) dont be so sceptical.
R :police:

Quote from: Keira on November 26, 2007, 06:09:45 AM
Only if your against a wall and measured by someone else can
you know for sure.

This was a measurement taken during my last physical at the doctor's office, when being weighed on that scale thingy that also measures height. What about my shoe size shrinking? That wouldn't be affected by posture.

I love my estrogen.  ;D

Hi Rachael, 

Quoteplus guys take more notice when the advertisement is bigger Wink
R police

"Hee, hee, hee," Now that must be an original. Well I fit snugly under Wing Walkers arm, of course after she washes her underarm. She's 5' 11", "Honey!!! Hows the weather up there?" I love her right the way she is. If any one throws any rotten veggies at me I can just duck behind her. 

Cindy

I'm tired of arguing with you on the voice thing
believe whatever. You can say it all you want,
I'm not discussing it.

Quote from: melissa90299 on November 26, 2007, 01:16:17 AM
All this statistical crap is meaningless. People don't go around with a tape measure seeing how tall people are and sexiness surely isn't gauged with a tape measure. People don't go around seeing a woman and "Say, look at that tall sexy women but oh she looks over 5'11"...why that's beyond the statistical norm, must be something wrong here!"

But I guess what it boils down to is that sexy women are sexy regardless of how tall or short they are and unsexy women just aren't sexy tall or short either.


Well said Melissa.

Being tall doesnt mean anything....
plus tall = sexy all models are 6foot somert!

yeah my doc measured me too... shoe size 12uk down to 8uk
and 5'11.5 down to 5'9 ^_^
R :police:

Meh, I figuire I'm sexy anyway, being tall is just a bonus.

Here's hoping I dont shrink. That would be weird  :-\.

Megan

I am 6'3 and I worry about being to tall and big to pass. I wear size 13 mens, 15 womens, weigh 220lbs, have broad shoulders and fairly big hands.

I believe that being tall is sexy, I love tall women.

I hope that HRT will shrink me also.

Hugz,
Ariana

Wow! well at least your height corresponds with your weight. Not sure about the foot wear though. Size 15 women? Well Wing Walkers feet are 11womens and she's 5' 11-1/2 inches.
Me I am just a runt 125 lbs 5'3" size 8 shoes. Cheez whiz I better make sure of where I am standing or I could get squished and no one would even be the wiser.

Cindy

I'm size 9-9.5 at 6 foot, always seemed like I had
small feet, my mother's 5 foot 5 and she wears
the same size as me (but wide).

I'm 5' 4.5", 118-120lbs, female shoes size 7 -7.5. Just love my size, don't want be taller or shorter. No matter clothes, pants or shoes, every time when I see something I like on a model in the window of a store, as long as I try them, mostly they always fit on me... or the stores always have the size that I need.

These days the average height for fashion models is 5'10".
Coincidentally, I'm 5'10".

win, im 5'9, theres hope yet :D
R :police:

Same here Rachael.  5'9" (to 9 1/4" depends on when I measure).

Sarah L.

While drawing my blood the other day, the nurse shook her head and said to me, "GOD I wish I was as tall as you!"

LOL... I'm 6'2" ;)

I protested, saying how I've always wanted to be small and petite.

She laughed at me, "WHY would you want THAT? Being tall would be SO great! I'm so jealous!"

The grass is always greener and all I guess... ;)

~Kate~

Hi Kate
Well since Wing Walker is the tall one between us two at 5'11 1/2" she notices the other tall women we see when walking around the malls and what not. Yes I guess I'm going to have to start carrying a stool with me if she starts making friends with all these tall ladies.

Cindy.

Kate, when a women is shorter than me. Its impossible for her to assess how much taller I am. I've had many think I'm 5 foot 9 or something. When I tell her I'm 6 foot she'd like, Wow! That tall.

Every day people say, I know this women who's as tall as you and I always say, she's probably smaller. Then, I meet this supposedly giant women and yep, she's not as tall as me.

I'm not sure she'd be so enthousiastic if you told her you were 6 foot 2 or saw you taller than all men around.  And, even then, in a normal setting she'd just assume your wearing heels.

In a way, its a good thing that people cannot assess height that well, it makes height really an non issue except if your also bulky horizontally. That's why I try to wear fitted clothes. I wore loose clothing all my life to look bigger, and it brings back very bad memories.

Quote from: Keira on December 13, 2007, 04:14:22 PM
I'm not sure she'd be so enthousiastic if you told her you were 6 foot 2...

I didn't have to... as she had just measured my height as part of the exam ;)

~Kate~

So there's hope for us 6 footers out there eh? :D

Well, you know, besides that whole intimidation factor!

I once went to a meeting wearing a long velvet sheath dress. As I sat down, the short and squat woman (about 5'1") sitting behind me said: "That dress looks great on you. I can't wear dresses like that. I wish I was tall."

I thanked her graciously. But what I thought--what I didn't say out loud--was: "You wish you were tall, I wish I had a vagina." It's the old "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" principle.

The difference is someday I will have a vagina. Life just ain't quite fair.

Yep that is true life is not quite fair but it seeks to balance itself out if you work at giving it a chance.

Cindy

I'm 5' 7" and to me that's tall enough...

I am very tall, I stand 6'10" and it is a major setback.  Everything is harder at this height, clothes, cars, walking in public without people starring or pointing, ect...But that is fine with me, there isn't anything I can do about it, and I am who I am.  So I am a 6'10" pre-op and I get my fair share of looks and yeah its annoying, but its my life and I make the best of it.  There is no such thing as too tall for me.  I love being this tall and there are very few of us giants out there, and that makes me unique...wouldn't trade it for the world

Quote from: longleggedlindsey on December 22, 2007, 11:23:52 PM
I am very tall, I stand 6'10" and it is a major setback.  Everything is harder at this height, clothes, cars, walking in public without people starring or pointing, ect...But that is fine with me, there isn't anything I can do about it, and I am who I am.  So I am a 6'10" pre-op and I get my fair share of looks and yeah its annoying, but its my life and I make the best of it.  There is no such thing as too tall for me.  I love being this tall and there are very few of us giants out there, and that makes me unique...wouldn't trade it for the world

OMGAWD! 6'10", it means you are taller than 2 Meters, or almost 2.1m?! Congradulation, I guess it might be the world record for TS women!  :D

Hi : longleggedlindsey

Holly smokes, I didn't know they made people that big and I would need a step ladder to see the color of your eyes.

Cindy

Six foot 10 is 2.08 meter.

Anyone who complains of being too tall at 5 foot 9 should get shot
after hearing her story. You're inspiriing that's for sure!

Inspiring is right, and I do pray that all will go well for you longleggedlindsey. Wing Walker is 5' 11.5" tall and still when we go shopping I see ladies that are several inches taller then her so I don't think there are no shortages of women over 6' 0" tall. Maybe the Amazonian ladies have all moved to Vancouver.

Cindy

QuoteI am very tall, I stand 6'10" and it is a major setback.  Everything is harder at this height, clothes, cars, walking in public without people starring or pointing, ect...But that is fine with me, there isn't anything I can do about it, and I am who I am.  So I am a 6'10" pre-op and I get my fair share of looks and yeah its annoying, but its my life and I make the best of it.  There is no such thing as too tall for me.  I love being this tall and there are very few of us giants out there, and that makes me unique...wouldn't trade it for the world

I think that it is now officially time for me to stop complaining about being 6ft tall. I wish you all the best in your journey Longleggedlinsey  ;)

Ayana   :icon_geekdance:

Quote from: Keira on December 23, 2007, 06:17:10 AM

Six foot 10 is 2.08 meter.

Anyone who complains of being too tall at 5 foot 9 should get shot
after hearing her story. You're inspiriing that's for sure!

tall is relative....
in a land of 7ft people, shes short...

in a land of 5'5 average, 5'9 is tall....

it seems everyone in my area is short... most boys are shorter than my 5'9 and its ANNOYING..... best way around it? throw on some heels so i can see the tall boys from a distance ;)
R :police:

I just think that anything 5'9 and under is just like perfect :P

I hate my height but still nothing to do about it! bah!

I have never really given my height too much thought, until my daughter brought it up not too long ago...

"Izzy, how tall are you?"
"Five eight. Why?"
She turns around from the television and looks at me critically, "What size are you?"
"I'm a 3/4 why?"
Well a stream of epithets came pouring out...turns out she was watching America's Top Model and the height requirements are 5'8 to 6'1" (she's only 5'4") and a size 4 or less...now I tease her that I should try out!

Peace and love,
Izzy

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on December 26, 2007, 10:07:11 PM
I have never really given my height too much thought, until my daughter brought it up not too long ago...

"Izzy, how tall are you?"
"Five eight. Why?"
She turns around from the television and looks at me critically, "What size are you?"
"I'm a 3/4 why?"
Well a stream of epithets came pouring out...turns out she was watching America's Top Model and the height requirements are 5'8 to 6'1" (she's only 5'4") and a size 4 or less...now I tease her that I should try out!

Peace and love,
Izzy

Hehe oh yay I could make it on the tall side then for being 6 ft :P  (ahhh to be anything smaller gosh! :D )

3/4? /me sobs :( i need to skinnyfy fast :(
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on December 27, 2007, 07:46:11 AM
3/4? /me sobs :( i need to skinnyfy fast :(
R :police:

Quietly slinking off to a corner...hate to admit that when I graduated high school I was a 00...

Peace and love,
Izzy

In theory, size 0 is 30 inch hips, 20 inch waist, but its obvious that this is NOT the case
in real life... Not many women and even less men, in the world have 20 inch waists!!
Sizes are whatever they feel it should be, so I fit in 4-6 bottoms and 8-10 tops,
once I lose some more of the back muscle, I'll probably fit in 4-6 tops.

Quote from: Keira on December 27, 2007, 02:30:40 PMIn theory, size 0 is 30 inch hips, 20 inch waist, but its obvious that this is NOT the case in real life... Not many women and even less men, in the world have 20 inch waists!!
Sizes are whatever they feel it should be, so I fit in 4-6 bottoms and 8-10 tops, once I lose some more of the back muscle, I'll probably fit in 4-6 tops.

When I started my senior year of high school I was 5' 7 1/2" and 95 pounds...at the end of the school year I was 5'8" and 105 pounds...I have always just been extremely small...to help illustrate I'll use my wrist measurement to help put things into perspective for other...I also only had a 22 inch waist my senior year...which is now up to just 26 inches...

The wrist measurement is just on of the methods used to determine a person's frame size and is simply the measurement around the widest part of your wrist. My wrist comes in at 5 1/8"...don't even ask me about how many bracelets I have lost because they simply fall off my wrist...

Determining frame size:To determine the body frame size, measure the wrist with a tape measure and use the following chart to determine whether the person is small, medium, or large boned.

Women:
    * height under 5'2"
          o small = wrist size less than 5.5"
          o medium = wrist size 5.5" to 5.75"
          o large = wrist size over 5.75"
    * height 5'2" to 5' 5"
          o small = wrist size less than 6"
          o medium = wrist size 6" to 6.25"
          o large = wrist size over 6.25"
    * height over 5' 5"
          o small = wrist size less than 6.25"
          o medium = wrist size 6.25" to 6.5"
          o large = wrist size over 6.5"

Men:

    * height over 5' 5"
          o small = wrist size 5.5" to 6.5"
          o medium = wrist size 6.5" to 7.5"
          o large = wrist size over 7.5"

So regardless if I use the woman's or the men's chart...I am just extremely small framed...

I would never recommend that someone even try to fit in a size 00 or a size 0...unless of course you just happen to be built small and can wear them without risking your health...

Just some more thoughts to throw about...

Peace and love,
Izzy

Quote from: Keira on December 27, 2007, 02:30:40 PMI fit in 4-6 bottoms and 8-10 tops,
once I lose some more of the back muscle, I'll probably fit in 4-6 tops.

Thanks... that would explain how my size in tops and dresses has gone down since I started HRT. I went from 18 to 14.

well this is depressing :(
uk 12/14 tops and bottoms personally...
us 10?
either way, im a porker... :(
R :(

Wow, that is small framed, my wrist is 6 inch, which is already smaller than most women.
It is considered small framed for a women of 6 foot tall.

I'd be slightly worried about osteoporosis with a frame so small.
I know I am, because I've also got quite a slight frame (smaller
than my mother or sister).

But, strangely, I think I may actually have a smaller upper body!!
Since I'm creeping quickly towards a 32 band size!!!
I had LOTS of upper body muscles initially (and still have quite a bit of pecs and back muscles.
Went from a tight 38 band to a loose 34 in 14 months!!

There is a great disparity in upper body VS lower body frame size in my case, since I trained in track and field for years in high jump and used to half squat 1000 pounds, had a crazy 42 inch impulsion. My training for a decade increased my lower body bone size quite a bit compared to my upper body. Which is good since it make my hips stick out quite a bit   :)

Quote from: Rachael on December 27, 2007, 04:47:43 PM
well this is depressing :(
uk 12/14 tops and bottoms personally...
us 10?
either way, im a porker... :(
R :(

...I'm a bit of a porker too!......but I think it helps me........and I'd rather have a rounder shape that a flat skinny shape like my friend which looks even less like a female..

Quote from: Hypatia on December 27, 2007, 03:42:56 PM
Thanks... that would explain how my size in tops and dresses has gone down since I started HRT. I went from 18 to 14.

Yep, HRT causes one to loss of muscle mass...and fat to go up :-\

Quote from: Keira on December 27, 2007, 04:54:15 PM

Wow, that is small framed, my wrist is 6 inch, which is already smaller than most women.
It is considered small framed for a women of 6 foot tall.

I'd be slightly worried about osteoporosis with a frame so small.
I know I am, because I've also got quite a slight frame (smaller
than my mother or sister).

But, strangely, I think I may actually have a smaller upper body!!
Since I'm creeping quickly towards a 32 band size!!!
I had LOTS of upper body muscles initially (and still have quite a bit of pecs and back muscles.
Went from a tight 38 band to a loose 34 in 14 months!!

There is a great disparity in upper body VS lower body frame size in my case, since I trained in track and field for years in high jump and used to half squat 1000 pounds, had a crazy 42 inch impulsion. My training for a decade increased my lower body bone size quite a bit compared to my upper body. Which is good since it make my hips stick out quite a bit   :)

Luckily there isn't any osteoporosis in the family, but I do worry about it a bit. I make sure to take a calcium pill every day and see my doctor on a regular basis. I also worry a bit because the sports I regularly participate in are both shown to cause lighter bone mass as well; both bicycling and swimming cause one to loss mass in the bones...not size...weight of the bones...which can lead to easier bone breakage too.

Like I mentioned above, the loss of muscle mass is normal when you're on HRT, so I'm not surprised you have gone down in band size...although at 32 band is hard to find decent bras in.

Quote from: Rachael on December 27, 2007, 04:47:43 PM
well this is depressing :(
uk 12/14 tops and bottoms personally...
us 10?
either way, im a porker... :(
R :(

A size 10 isn't really bad and that does not make you a porker at all...remember...the only truly important measure is how you look over all...I personally believe that way to much emphasis is placed on size anyway...

Peace and love,
Izzy

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on December 27, 2007, 06:02:53 PM
A size 10 isn't really bad and that does not make you a porker at all...remember...the only truly important measure is how you look over all...I personally believe that way to much emphasis is placed on size anyway...

Peace and love,
Izzy

10 is quite small in my book as most genetic females I know are between size 12 and 16 (U.K sizes)....on ther hips. I'm a 12 and I don't think that's all that big......I actually wish my backside was bigger!

my butt does NOT need help! :D
well i said 10 us, more like 12-14 uk... im entirely within female norms technically, just not up here it seems where everyones so short and tiny ><
i might do a full profile pic at some point, i think i look ok shapewise, just i HATE being what i consider tall in these parts... working on bikiniable by summer :D
R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on December 27, 2007, 06:13:33 PM
my butt does NOT need help! :D
well i said 10 us, more like 12-14 uk... im entirely within female norms technically, just not up here it seems where everyones so short and tiny ><
i might do a full profile pic at some point, i think i look ok shapewise, just i HATE being what i consider tall in these parts... working on bikiniable by summer :D
R :police:

.....what kind of height are you Rachael? you don't look that tall in your pics.....I was working on being bikiniable by 2002......and I'm sadly still working on it..

I'm not familiar with where you live, but here in the States I'm 5'8" and I'm not really all that tall compared to the woman in the area...I'm actually still a bit on the short side of things...must be all the growth hormones they put in the beef these days...and here I am vegetarian...

Peace and love,
Izzy

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on December 27, 2007, 06:19:11 PM
I'm not familiar with where you live, but here in the States I'm 5'8" and I'm not really all that tall compared to the woman in the area...I'm actually still a bit on the short side of things...must be all the growth hormones they put in the beef these days...and here I am vegetarian...

Peace and love,
Izzy

...you are taller than me Izzy .......and over here in England the average females are about 5' 4" or 5' 5".........so at 5' 7".... I'm pushing it...

Isabelle, there's no area in the US were you'd be smaller than average for your age.
In most US area you'd be above average.
Its very hard to visually acertain the population average.

Quote from: Keira on December 27, 2007, 06:48:11 PM
Isabelle, there's no area in the US were you'd be smaller than average for your age.
In most US area you'd be above average.
Its very hard to visually acertain the population average.

For my age perhaps...but it does seem that the younger girls are all so much taller these days...hum...well some of them...I see your point...I don't feel like I'm all that tall around here.....

Peace and love,
Izzy

I'm a hair over 5'10" and I run into teenage women in flats who are taller than I am. The other day while going into the grocery store there were four of us going in, not a one of us in heels, and all my height or above. Still not the norm but I have noticed that it is easier to find long torso tops and Tall jeans these days.

Lost again, don't doubt you, but... in the last 30 years, the height for women the general US population has only increased 1 inch. But, the US population has also become more diverse, with more latin immigrants (usually smaller) contributing to the average. So, locally, its highly possible that even though the general average is still not that high, the variance around the average could be high, meaning there are more people significantly smaller and taller than the average.

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on December 27, 2007, 06:02:53 PMLike I mentioned above, the loss of muscle mass is normal when you're on HRT, so I'm not surprised you have gone down in band size...although at 32 band is hard to find decent bras in.

In less than a year band size decreased from 40 to 38, while my cup size increased from A to C.

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierreremember...the only truly important measure is how you look over all...I personally believe that way to much emphasis is placed on size anyway...

Thanks for saying this... you're right about it. I'm pretty good looking overall for a big girl.

High 5 from another vegetarian. :)

heh bra size is an eternal struggle... my best friend is 28-30 DD/e... she really only has the pornstar bras to choose from! and she hates it :P
R :police:

At least when the number is in the mid-thirties you stand a chance of finding a pretty bra. Once I got down to 38, I suddenly had lots more choices... although 36 is better supplied.

Quote from: Hypatia on December 28, 2007, 01:55:33 PM
At least when the number is in the mid-thirties you stand a chance of finding a pretty bra. Once I got down to 38, I suddenly had lots more choices... although 36 is better supplied.

Invest in a couple bra extenders.

6'2 here. It was the main reason why I didn't start to transition until a month ago (age 22).


Now, I'm pretty sure that I'll end up being one sexy bitch.  ;D

Quote from: Traverse on December 30, 2007, 08:18:25 PM
6'2 here. It was the main reason why I didn't start to transition until a month ago (age 22).


Now, I'm pretty sure that I'll end up being one sexy bitch.  ;D

hehe that was one of the main reasons for me as well.  Now I can only hope I turn out okay :P

Well I transitioned and now I'm just a bitch.

Cindy

Quote from: Keira on December 27, 2007, 07:19:17 PM

Lost again, don't doubt you, but... in the last 30 years, the height for women the general US population has only increased 1 inch. But, the US population has also become more diverse, with more latin immigrants (usually smaller) contributing to the average. So, locally, its highly possible that even though the general average is still not that high, the variance around the average could be high, meaning there are more people significantly smaller and taller than the average.

Hi, Keira,

Sometimes stats are just numbers.  I stand 5 feet, 11.5 inches tall or 181.61 cm.  That is barefoot.

When I lived in Midland, Ontario, on the east end of Georgian Bay, I thought that I was a large woman compared to the rest of the populace, easy to see, standing out in the crowd.

One day I went shopping in a Zehr's/RCSS in Midland and I was surprised to see other women in there who were taller than me.  They were younger and taller, some with hips much wider than mine.  As time went on I saw tall women more often at Wal Mart, Home Depot, the bank, and other stores, and they were always there but there has been no great influx of people to Midland and Penetanguishine, the two towns in that area.

I have a guy friend who lives in Minnesota and he told me about BMWs, not the car, but "big Minnesota women."

You can argue this as much as you want but the incidence of taller women is true.  Just ask one of us who are tall and seen other women who are taller, in the U.S., in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia.  I am a woman and believe me, I notice.

As for tall being equal to sexy, I can't say that it's a magic elixir or a magic ingredient.  I believe that it's more how a woman carries herself and her own desire to be sexy that is the winning combination.

Wing Walker

sure helps you look sexyer than short n dumpy :P
R :police:

I don't WHY I have to argue that tall iis still rare when all statistics say it.
Statistics DO have meanings. Most people totallly misunderstand them.

And young women are only marginally taller than their parents.
Why would they not be, since large increase in height is linked to change
in nutritional imput and health. In general, the health of the female population
has not increased, so height has not increased substantially from the last generation.
It has increased from those born pre 1960 population; so it depends how you define young.

Like I said, locally, because of genetics or whatever, there may be pockets
of slightly taler women.  But, its unlikely that the average of this pocket
would be taller than the population in their original country.

The tallest women as a whole are in iceland and still, most women there are belllow 5 foot 8.
I;ve been there, and just about everywhere in the US and abroad,
and believe nowhere have I seen more talll women than in that country.

Depending on variance and locality,
there could be 0.05 - 0.5% of
the female population over 6 foot tall. Even a seemingly low pecentage like
0.5%, still means you'd  see 1/200 women taller than 6 foot, which I feel is A LOT.

Population averages are impossible to ascertain visually because we tend to
look out for things that fit our view of the world.

Quote from: Keira on December 31, 2007, 09:42:54 AM

I don't WHY I have to argue that tall iis still rare when all statistics say it.
Statistics DO have meanings. Most people totallly misunderstand them.

And young women are only marginally taller than their parents.
Why would they not be, since large increase in height is linked to change
in nutritional imput and health. In general, the health of the female population
has not increased, so height has not increased substantially from the last generation.
It has increased from those born pre 1960 population; so it depends how you define young.

Like I said, locally, because of genetics or whatever, there may be pockets
of slightly taler women.  But, its unlikely that the average of this pocket
would be taller than the population in their original country.

The tallest women as a whole are in iceland and still, most women there are belllow 5 foot 8.
I;ve been there, and just about everywhere in the US and abroad,
and believe nowhere have I seen more talll women than in that country.

Depending on variance and locality,
there could be 0.05 - 0.5% of
the female population over 6 foot tall. Even a seemingly low pecentage like
0.5%, still means you'd  see 1/200 women taller than 6 foot, which I feel is A LOT.

Population averages are impossible to ascertain visually because we tend to
look out for things that fit our view of the world.

Hi, Keira,

I am glad that the retailers of clothing and shoes are are catching on to the fact that there is an increasing number of tall women in the general population.  They show it with expanded inventories of clothing and shoes for women who stand 181.61 cm tall and taller with U.S. shoe sizes of 11.5 to 12.  I suppose that they could make sizes within n-standard deviations and leave it like that, and maybe even label them that way.

There is no need to feel that you must argue as this is nothing more than a conversation.

Statistics are not carved in stone. 

Wing Walker

Statistics are not carved in stone! ARGGGGG
Of course, methodology is important. But stats mean something.
Anyway, moving along...

The reason why retailers are stocking clothing for taller people is
not because there are that much more taller people. Its just they are taking
notice of them! Have you aver wondered why there has been
clothing for petite women for year (women below average height) when
there was none for women above average height. There has always
been as many women at both ends of the bell curve.

Tall women made do with ill fitting clothing forever!
But, ill fitting clothe with less length usually doesn't look
as bad in women than petite's wearing regular clothing.


I've worn "normal" clothes all the time and the place where it bothers
most is in pants and coats. In everything else, there is a way around
the length problem.

Full sleaved blouses are another anoying place. Though,
with the options in tops, a tall women can go around the non availabiliy
of fitting blouses.

Stats are also based on a sample size of a population to infer meaning about everyone.

There is always a possibility to get skewed results with anything you do, not to mention the standard deviation can also become skewed if you don't go about it the "correct" way.  Not saying that stats lie, but people who make them do very much so :D

I'm not saying it's normal for any woman to be over 5'8 either haha, but just my view on looking at stats in general.

Shanetastic, the problem is not stats, its the laypeople's use of stats.
When you don't understand how it can be abuse you're ripe to be abused
by its use. What makes most mad is when people who know how to use
stats willingly abuse those that don't. I can sort of accept the blind leading
the blind, but cannot endure the sighted leading the blinds over a cliff.


Myself, the several stats courses I did, are amongst the easiest.
Once you get into advanced math used in physics (was in physics before switching to engineering) or some more abstract math which are mainly head trips disconnected from any possible reality, you think of stats as quaints.

Stats was still an interesting subject.  I find it harder than calculus or any other math I've taken so far.  I think that's because I tend to have that algebra based mindset though.  Physics is super dooper hard too, not looking forward to taking another physics class :( 

Either way though, what you said about it all makes sense :D

Psychology is the statistical analysis of observable behaviour.  Comments, please?

99% of all persons serving time in the Canadian prison system have eaten tomatoes.  Therefore, tomato eaters are the most likely people to go to jail.

Statistics are most reliable when not *strictly* applied to people but work better with events.  Comments, please.

Wing Walker

Wing Walker,
you respond to one of my threads in a sarcastic way many times.
Its very annoying BTW.

I certainly don't want to go into a discussion of stats here. First, its off topic,
second its pointless if you've already got your own idea.

Since 99% of prisoners tomato eaters (if indeed its a real stat)
and being in prison are certainly uncorrellated variables, your assertion is absurd.

The problem with using stats on people is the difficulty in isolating independent variables.
This is the same problem that causes so many medical studies to fail because
of bad design. Wrong conclusion are extracted out of the data not because stats
is bad, but because the data doesn't allow to give conclusive results and people
don't notice that its the case (Often, its another study team that notices the
methodology and study design faults).

Quote from: Rachael on December 31, 2007, 06:54:21 AM
sure helps you look sexyer than short n dumpy :P
R :police:

LOL w/ ya, Rachael!

WW

Posted on: December 31, 2007, 07:57:18 PM

---

Quote from: Keira on December 31, 2007, 05:29:39 PM

Wing Walker,
you respond to one of my threads in a sarcastic way many times.
Its very annoying BTW.

I certainly don't want to go into a discussion of stats here. First, its off topic,
second its pointless if you've already got your own idea.

Since 99% of prisoners tomato eaters (if indeed its a real stat)
and being in prison are certainly uncorrellated variables, your assertion is absurd.

The problem with using stats on people is the difficulty in isolating independent variables.
This is the same problem that causes so many medical studies to fail because
of bad design. Wrong conclusion are extracted out of the data not because stats
is bad, but because the data doesn't allow to give conclusive results and people
don't notice that its the case (Often, its another study team that notices the
methodology and study design faults).

Hi, Kiera,

I directed nothing at you.  I posted some propositions for comment from anyone who wishes to make a comment.

Statistics can be manipulated and used to prove whatever one wants to prove. 

I am not a small woman.  Petite is not me.  I notice other women who appear to me to be as tall as I am or taller.  It makes me feel better about myself to see them, and we are out there.  That is an "unquantified statistic" that I notice.

Wing Walker
The First Rule of Discussion:  Shoot at the premise, never the one who puts it forth

Sorry!!!! but I been lost since Shantastic's post ????????? Guess this thread wasn't meant for Hobbits.

Cindy.

I think your assertions is totally false Wing Walker, it CANNOT be made to say whatever you want it to say if you've got the whole methodology and know about stats. Only the ignorant of both
can be fooled.

I've said that 3 times already BTW. METHODOLOGY and KNOWLEDGE of stats theory is important.

Stating percentages is not stats btw. Its just another way of stating a ratio.

Sarcasm is being used, in this thread and other answers to what I said.
It annoys me if not any other person. You may not ackowledge it, but I see it clearly.


I tell you about how theoritically absurd your questions are and do you "discuss" this.
No, you come back with the same assertion that you can make stats say anything. Well,
only if you use stats that not stats... The one used in movies and myth.

Greetings Everyone,

Might I suggest that we just admit that there is a difference of opinion here and leave it at that?? Let's try to keep to the topic at hand...please?

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

Quote from: Isabelle St-Pierre on January 01, 2008, 12:41:36 AM
Greetings Everyone,

Might I suggest that we just admit that there is a difference of opinion here and leave it at that?? Let's try to keep to the topic at hand...please?

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

Hi, Isabelle,

According to what I have read, due to the size, shape, and weight of its body, and the surface area of its wings, the calculations say that a bumblebee cannot fly, however, the bee being totally ignorant of aerodynamics goes ahead and flies anyway.

And according to all of the statistical information that I have seen here, I cannot possibly be mistaken for, let alone be accepted as a woman.  Had I paid attention to such things I might have committed suicide after I read the ratios and their occurrence.

When anyone looks at me they see a large woman.  I'm 5'11.5" and I sure got some fine padding from Grandmother Estrogen.

When I look in a mirror I see me, a woman, being the best woman that I can be.

I might have killed myself because if the ratios of the length of my upper arm to my lower arm, the length of my upper leg to my  lower leg, number and size of ribs, the curvature of my spine, the break-point(?) of my arms at my waist, the placement of the vertebrae, the circimference of my head (OK, no wisecracks are necessary, LOL!!), the difference between the bossing on my forehead and the forehead of a natal woman, the size of my hands and feet, and whether I can circle my left wrist with my right thumb and middle finger and vice-versa, if all of these did not fall into some sort of statistical model for a transsexual woman, some might say that I have no right to transition.  If that was the case I might be better off dead.

I come here for support and to support others.  Who knows, there may be others like me who don't take a size 2 and cannot easily find nylons to go the length of her leg.

What do I have going for me?  Not much, maybe, but I don't let that stop me.  I take some comfort in knowing that short of an autopsy no one will find me out.

There are women who have bossing on their foreheads, a skull my size, limb ratios that aren't on anyone's chart, and feet bigger than mine.  Small comfort but it's there.  I have seen them on public transport, at work, in the supermarket, all over town.

So considering that I am what I am and that's all what I am, I see no difference of opinion.  I have no axe to grind.  In 30 minutes it will be a new year and I don't wish to take this subthread into the next year with me, but by the same token, I cannot walk away and leave it untied.

Wing Walker

Wing Walker, what your talking about is still not stats, its again misuses of stat.

Passability has nothing to do with stats since
its due to a instantanous assesssment by the brain of thousands of factors, some
dependent, other independent. If the other person assesses you as female,
what is it, that one of your legs is out of range. My legs and arms are certainly longer
than average, but It hasn't hampered me in the least (I'm the same height as you exactly by the way).

That being said,


Survey's use stats, but only because its too onerous to count the whole population. If you didn't have to sample, then you'd simply get a population ratio which is not a use of stats at all.

Surveys that produce bell curve representation of reality (most population parameters are spread on both side of a bell curve ) could tell you that you fal within some antropometric female range, but it rarely would tell you if your overall body are similar to that 5 foot 11 and a half women because that's the kind of survey that's never taken. So, we don't know if indeed you or me are within that range. We indeed may be. Body proportions in our case is more important that just absolute comparason.

Factor, say shoulder width or hand size, need first to be made proportionate to height to make
sense for us. Even when in absolute term, someone doesn't fall within female range, I've seen that in
a term relative to height most do.


When something is totally point of view driven, like religion or if suchi is good, then
its pointless to continue talking a point through. When something is more
neutral and point of view should not enter into it, like math or if the earth
is flat or round, letting go of the discussion becomes hard. I don't like
to let misinformation stand, a foible I guess.

Anyway, that's all I'm adding on
this subject no matter your reply which I'll neverthless be happy (or not ;-) to read.

i THINK im with kiera....
if you look right, its all that matters, how long your big toe is in relation to your thumb doesnt matter, nobody notices... overall if your within female, you look female, this variation is what makes us look different, and notall boring and the same.

and im with izzy here, can we stop the bayonet charges for the new year? what good does the arguing do?
R :police:

Quote from: Keira on January 01, 2008, 06:02:47 AM
Wing Walker, what your talking about is still not stats, its again misuses of stat.

Passability has nothing to do with stats since
its due to a instantanous assesssment by the brain of thousands of factors, some
dependent, other independent. If the other person assesses you as female,
what is it, that one of your legs is out of range. My legs and arms are certainly longer
than average, but It hasn't hampered me in the least (I'm the same height as you exactly by the way).

That being said,


Survey's use stats, but only because its too onerous to count the whole population. If you didn't have to sample, then you'd simply get a population ratio which is not a use of stats at all.

Surveys that produce bell curve representation of reality (most population parameters are spread on both side of a bell curve ) could tell you that you fal within some antropometric female range, but it rarely would tell you if your overall body are similar to that 5 foot 11 and a half women because that's the kind of survey that's never taken. So, we don't know if indeed you or me are within that range. We indeed may be. Body proportions in our case is more important that just absolute comparason.

Factor, say shoulder width or hand size, need first to be made proportionate to height to make
sense for us. Even when in absolute term, someone doesn't fall within female range, I've seen that in
a term relative to height most do.


When something is totally point of view driven, like religion or if suchi is good, then
its pointless to continue talking a point through. When something is more
neutral and point of view should not enter into it, like math or if the earth
is flat or round, letting go of the discussion becomes hard. I don't like
to let misinformation stand, a foible I guess.

Anyway, that's all I'm adding on
this subject no matter your reply which I'll neverthless be happy (or not ;-) to read.

Hi, Kiera,

Thank you for your reply.  IMHO, it is well-reasoned and a good explanation of stats versus random sightings, objective findings versus subjective findings.  Your tenacity in clearing-up misinformation is a good quality in this case.

I had an image of you as shorter than 5 feet, 11.5 inches. 

The more data samples one takes, the more accurate the curve.  Gathering data for all of the millions of women in America isn't only onerous, it makes no sense, so a limited sample size must be determined and, after studying the accuracy of the data in each sample lot, arriving at a sample size for which data can be collected and analyzed before the results of the analysis become useless.

Rachael, what you have said is how I have felt since the day I realized that I might actually be able to transition.  That was on April 4, 2002.  That was the day of my first appointment with a gender therapist, and it was on that day that I knew I had embraced she who has always been within me and decided to be the best "she" shat I could be.

I have no bayonet charges to make and I never did.  When too many measurements and ratios began to appear I felt them to be detrimental to those of us who have enough problems being who we are. 

I never worried about being accepted as a woman by the rest of the world, even when I knew that there was no way they could be that close to blind.  I am secure in myself after five years of being me.  Kiera is right and I know it:  that no one sees you as each of your parts and automatically checks your proportions to see if they fall within the anthropometric female range.  It's a good thing that it works as it does.  If it didn't, the suicide rate among transsexuals might be worse than it actually is.

Thank you again for your reply, Kiera.  And thank you for your comments, Isabelle and Rachael.

Happy 2008 to all.

Wing Walker

P.S.  The canard about jail and tomatoes is borrowed from an essay I read in 1969 called "The Dread Tomato Addiction."  It was an example of some manner of "newspeak," I think.

WW

Hi Rachael hon, my big toe is smaller then yours. "Nyaaa, nyaaaa." Sticks tongue out. "Hee, hee, hee."
Just messin with you.

Cindy

I have a hard time remembering the spelling for a lot of stuff and by the time I get to the post window I forgot. What I d is copy the name and paste it when I get to the post window and part of their post if need be.

Cindy

Quote from: Renate on January 01, 2008, 04:50:25 PM
Please, everybody, make a super-human effort to get people's names correct.
I know that there are a lot of uncommon names and I know that some people have trouble spelling generally.
When you respond to someone's post, please take the time to double-check the name.

Thanks,

Renate

P.S.  This has nothing to do with my name.

Recently, in another forum, someone unfamiliar with my name spelled it "Hypnatia"  ;D

whats the drama? people typo... its the internet.
R :police:

it happens... i doubt its anything to do with willfully disrespecting thier gender... lighten up. a typo isnt dissing yo womanhood....
R :police: