Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I hope the following puts a  :icon_lol: on readers' faces
(for more than one reason :icon_exclaim:)
Republican't "TrueColors" ...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2F4ui3qr.jpg&hash=c23de3887e45a603764fb163d639de30c4d75b61)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi67.tinypic.com%2F4qf4m.jpg&hash=302967aa6770c507a7f300bab6e2504fb54eff6a) (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/05/28/republican-claims-state-will-balance-budget-by-cutting-transgender-care/)

I swear, I fail to see what joy people can gain from causing others' suffering.  It's like he wants to hurt people so bad he's willing to look like an idiot to do it.  Sorry, I guess that should read "as an idiot," there's little question about his capacity. 

Erin

Quote from: Dayta on May 28, 2017, 12:54:42 PM
I swear, I fail to see what joy people can gain from causing others' suffering.  It's like he wants to hurt people so bad he's willing to look like an idiot to do it.  Sorry, I guess that should read "as an idiot," there's little question about his capacity. 

Erin

It gives their base an issue to rally around all wrapped up in religious colors.  It's the oldest story in politics.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

I dislike too ask but where in the U.S. Constitution is it worded that taxpayers pay for Transgender or cis gender health care? Remember for free Healthcare and surgeries someone has to pay for it so you can have this care. This is the problem with social economics /socialism expecting those who work to support those who don't work.  When was the last time you thanked a Taxpayer for your free healthcare?

Well, there you have it.  The worth of a human being is solely dependent on their economic contribution to society.  If socialism is ensuring that those less fortunate are taken care of, then call me a socialist.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 29, 2017, 08:40:02 AM
I dislike too ask but where in the U.S. Constitution is it worded that taxpayers pay for Transgender or cis gender health care? Remember for free Healthcare and surgeries someone has to pay for it so you can have this care. This is the problem with social economics /socialism expecting those who work to support those who don't work.  When was the last time you thanked a Taxpayer for your free healthcare?

Hi Cheryl, Happy Memorial Day.  It's a leap that because someone is seeking treatment for their dysphoria that they are necessarily not contributing.  Speaking for myself, I do pay taxes, and I do seek treatment, much of which is covered by my employer-provided insurance.  So, is my treatment paid for, at least in part by tax dollars?  Maybe not directly, but I'm not taxed on the value of insurance received, so perhaps in the intricacies of finance, taxes and insurance, I get a tax benefit which could be interpreted as money from the government for my treatment.  There.  Now is it right or fair that someone whose employer provides less comprehensive insurance, or pays less taxes, or lives in a state requiring additional gates before delivery of gender-related services gets less than I do? I find it VERY difficult to say "yes." 

Taking a slightly different perspective, if we consider our competitive position in the world, the U.S. had long enjoyed its status as the provider of the best health care, and hosted one of the happiest, most satisfied populations on Earth.  This is no longer true.  We have been since surpassed on both counts by European liberal social democracies, like Denmark, Norway, Finland and the Netherlands.  Now, if you believe that it's not in our nation's interest to provide the best health care, to everyone, and to provide for a citizenry that proclaims to the world that they are happy and proud of the life they lead, as supported by a responsive government, I'm curious about what kind of measures we ought to be using in order to guide our lawmaking and social systems. 

We are still among the richest of nations on the planet, and in fact, outperform most of those aforementioned countries.  So why are we unable to provide for similar levels of social services to our people.  We're literally protecting our people less well than other nations who are poorer.  If we, as individual citizens, were making this kind of comparison to our peers, we would certainly try to adopt best practices to improve the value received for our money.  Well, if we do that as a nation, we see that the best performing nations provide their people comprehensive health care.  If we choose not to follow that path, we ought to do so recognizing that we are deliberately sacrificing the happiness, and in many, many cases the lives of people in order to hold to some other value.  I personally don't think there is a higher value for us to hold, but I'm certainly listening.  Please take care. 

Erin

Completely agree!

Quote from: Deborah on May 29, 2017, 08:46:13 AM
Well, there you have it.  The worth of a human being is solely dependent on their economic contribution to society.  If socialism is ensuring that those less fortunate are taken care of, then call me a socialist.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 29, 2017, 08:40:02 AM
I dislike too ask but where in the U.S. Constitution is it worded that taxpayers pay for Transgender or cis gender health care? Remember for free Healthcare and surgeries someone has to pay for it so you can have this care. This is the problem with social economics /socialism expecting those who work to support those who don't work.  When was the last time you thanked a Taxpayer for your free healthcare?

Where does it state in the Constitution that the way to improve health care is to cut benefits to the poor, while giving personal tax breaks to the insurance company execs?

Also, there are many, many people who go to work every day, but still struggle to survive, due to poverty wages.  Are they not entitled to some help?  Take a look at Walmart.  It's a large multinational company, that's owned by some of the richest people in the U.S.  Yet, they pay many of their employees so poorly that they need state benefits to survive.  One example I read about was Wisconsin, where the average Walmart employee costs the state (read tax payer) some $4000 in benefits per year.  Those people in Wisconsin are being forced to subsidize billionaires.  Seems to me that's part of the problem where on one hand, many people are forced into poverty and then denied needed benefits on the other.

I believe it was Warren Buffet's son Peter, who said that many charities wouldn't be needed, if employers paid living wages.

I've been in the work force long enough to remember the time before "Reaganomics", with the trickle down effects etc.  The main result of this is a serious decline in the standard of living, for the bulk of the population, while the super rich, the so called 1% became much wealthier.

Transgener support is part of health care, just as much as other surgery, psychiatric help and other.

Regarding the above/interesting social/political debate:
I'm refraining from joining in the debate ...
'cuz @ the core of my above/original post
(which I (still) don't find amounted to a PoliticalAttack :rolleyes:)
was how a "politician" publically declared that
the way to balance the budget was
to cut "TransGender HealthCare"
when the politico's state actually provides none :icon_rolleyes2:

Quote from: Dayta on May 28, 2017, 12:54:42 PM
"I swear, I fail to see what joy people can gain from causing others' suffering.
It's like he wants to hurt people so bad ...
Erin"

Ever since having moved (back) to the USA ... 2½years ago ...
I've repeatedly "sensed" that ...
if/when "someone (seemingly) hates you" ...
what they (seemingly) "want" is ...
for you to become filled with hate ~
which they seemingly/mostly try to achieve
by (trying to) fill you with hate ... for them ...

Translation/Relevance:
Maybe the Republican in question above
(for whatever reasons) "hates" "non-CIS" human beings ...
and wants to stir hate those hated :icon_confused:

^ I'm sorry for this, but even though you might have some very interesting and compelling things to say, I'm really having a hard time reading them since every one of your posts uses multiple colours and text styles etc.  Would it be possible to just use standard colour and formatting?

^^^^
+1

I was tempted to send her a PM to say the same thing.

Quote from: staciM on May 29, 2017, 12:18:24 PM
"^ I'm sorry for this,
but even though you might have some very interesting and compelling things to say,
I'm really having a hard time reading them since every one of your posts
uses multiple colours and text styles etc.
Would it be possible to just use standard colour and formatting?"

I personally cannot (manage to) read
some of the most common posting styles found @round the WWW ...
For example:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi876.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab328%2F007www%2FSsP%2FParags01_zpsmgwyprxe.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=63cee9516243f722e16da47a00ef198ebd8d3d79)

I simply cannot keep my place/line# straight ...
when trying to read posts that are as wide as the computer screen
and sometimes/almost one endless run-on block of text ...

No one of us can write in such a way to please everyone ... can we :icon_confused:

^^^^
Perhaps the thing to do is just leave things at the defaults, as most of us here do.  That will produce text like mine.  Do you have trouble reading this?

I agree there's a lot of hard to read text out there.  It's usually because someone likes to get fancy with styles, fonts, colours etc.

Bottom line, if people find your writing hard to read, as at least two of us here do, your posts will be ignored.  Your choice.

I have a few problems with the current state of health insurance in the states.

1st. Typically insurance is optional coverage you can buy to cover a what if/maybe will maybe won't happen.
Every single person will need healthcare at some point in their lifetime. Can we really call this type of optional healthcare an "insurance"?

2: our healthcare insurance is intrinsically connected to an employer. Problem is many of the people who need it worst are unable to work. It also limits options severely for those self employed.

3: Coverage should be based on the best available medical evidence and what is determined to be medically necessary care by said medical expert/provider and the patient.

4. Most of the arguments here don't take into account for people born disabled or become disabled mid career. As someone who has dealt with both (and paid taxes for years) i can say say it leave much to be desired.

So yes, I think if people are genuinely disabled and motivated to get better and are compliment with the care prescribed for them I believe they should have coverage for medically necessary issues that may not be directly connected to the issues that are preventing them from working.

I also believe that every person that holds a full time job should have a living income, and access to comprehensive healthcare.

But, I'm definitely biased here (obviously). So maybe I'm completely off base. ;-)


~Brooke~

I live in Canada, where health care is available for all.  In Ontario, we used to have premiums, but they were abolished years ago.  This covers basic health care, though not most prescriptions or dental.  Private insurance is available to cover these and extras, such as private rooms in the hospital, glasses, etc.  According to what I've read, the U.S. has the most expensive health care in the industrialized world and many people are still left out.  Private insurance coverage here is often provided by employers, but may also be obtained individually or through some group.  For example, I'm eligible for a group plan through the college I went to and also the auto association.  Probably elsewhere too.

This morning I had some blood tests, as requisitioned by my doctor, and I just had to provide my health card to have them covered.

Why does health care have to be so difficult in the U.S.?

Quote from: Brooke on May 29, 2017, 02:00:18 PM
1st. Typically insurance is optional coverage you can buy to cover a what if/maybe will maybe won't happen.
Every single person will need healthcare at some point in their lifetime. Can we really call this type of optional healthcare an "insurance"?

Thanks, Brooke!  I do believe that the discussion can be driven by the concept of insurance, which we accept in almost all circumstances as an option (think home, apartment, life, travel, etc...).  Perhaps a reframing of the issue as simply "healthcare," as something that we receive from the government just like we accept many other things, such as road maintenance, receiving mail, air, use of public parks, ...without having to pay a specific fee for. 

Curiously, we seems to have accepted, as a society, the necessity for paying for auto insurance as part of the responsibility of driving.  Given the necessity of healthcare, as you stated, I don't understand the near-violent opposition to the healthcare mandate under the previous administration.

Erin

QuoteI don't understand the near-violent opposition to the healthcare mandate under the previous administration.

My take is that a big part of the problem was not the plan, but the fact that it came from Obama.  If GWB had implemented the exact same program, we wouldn't be hearing anywhere near the objections.  In viewing U.S. politics, from this side of the border, I get the impression that many of one party consider anything from the other to be evil, regardless of what it actually is about.

Quote from: AnneK on May 29, 2017, 04:09:57 PM
My take is that a big part of the problem was not the plan, but the fact that it came from Obama.  If GWB had implemented the exact same program, we wouldn't be hearing anywhere near the objections.  In viewing U.S. politics, from this side of the border, I get the impression that many of one party consider anything from the other to be evil, regardless of what it actually is about.

I agree.  This administration has attacked anything and everything with Obama's name on it....sometimes I don't even think they read the legislation but the signature.

Political posturing and misinformation by a politician using transgender surgery as a "red herring" need not require an angry, partisan or polarizing response here. 

Like AnneK we can ask why the USA as a whole, is unable to see health care as a basic right rather than a privilege for those with $.  A healthy populace is simply more productive, happier and adds immeasurably to an improved quality of life for all of us.  A national health care care plan for everyone is hugely less expensive and the distribution of resources far more equitable.  We can move that direction now.  It takes political courage and the will of the people.

Our current practice of deciding what group of people or what preexisting condition is left out will always end up with winners; usually the rich and losers; usually the poor with just name a disease.  Community and cooperation beats brutal competition every time.

I've always found it a big odd that America has no issue with a single payer system for a segment of our population. It's called Medicare. Yet as soon as the idea to expand Medicare to the entire population (or an equivalent), outrage! All of a sudden it's Socialism.


~Brooke~

Medicaid is single payer too, so is the VA, as is Tri-care,  and Child Health Plan Plus (CHP+) and the Federal Employee Health Benefits System FEHB, the same one congressmen and senators and judges use.

But when politicians use it all of a sudden it's not single payer or socialized medicine anymore.

 

Medicare Part A is a system most people pay into for most of their working life, and there are many things it does not pay for.  Unless you get separate coverage plans of your own.  It is questionable if the little payed in will cover for how long.
You pay extra for Part B and Part D.

Medicaid has many restrictions, and has its own problems.  One being each state has to pay and has restrictions on who is eligible.

Most federal Health Benefits systems are essentially Employer assisted insurance paying plans.  And are not free.
Not familiar with how the Congress/Senate/Judges handle any additional pay in.
As a now retired Federal employee, I paid into the plan when employed and also as a retiree, right now it is about $175/month for a single person plan.  Just like any employer insurance program
Right now under the ACA (Obamacare) I have to provide proof of additional coverage, as Medicare does not meet all  requirements, when TAX time comes around.

The VA system is also an Employer paying plan.

Not familiar with Tri-Care or CHP+.

TRICARE costs nothing in its basic form.  There is a low cost option that provides some extra benefit (about $50 per month for a family).  There are minimal copays for both if you get treatment outside a military treatment facility.

You have to be active duty military or retired to qualify.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: AnneK on May 29, 2017, 04:09:57 PM
My take is that a big part of the problem was not the plan, but the fact that it came from Obama.  If GWB had implemented the exact same program, we wouldn't be hearing anywhere near the objections.

In the 1970's Richard Nixon introduced a health care insurance bill that would cover everybody. It called for a voucher system, where every taxpayer would be given a voucher from the Federal Government to buy health insurance. It was to be financed by a new tax called a Payroll Tax which would replace the employer contribution for health insurance. It never went anywhere mainly because Ted Kennedy wanted a single payer system similar to European countries. The debate continued and the US got nothing.

The only real problem with Obamacare is that it is not properly funded by the Federal Government. Medicare is not too far behind in this under funding situation. The whole concept of insurance is to "Share The Risk". Many young people feel that they will be paying for elderly care and are resentful of that. The only way to cover everybody is to have an all inclusive system mandated by the Federal Government.

I do not blame any one political party. I blame the two party system. They will never work together.

I would like to add any insurance goes up in price when it becomes law to have it..car insurance was cheap til the federal government made it mandatory to have it and the premiums went through the roof, then the auto insurance industry got deregulated and alot of insurance companies sprang up offering cheaper rates then  the big insurance companies and premiums went down and now there is major competition.  The health isurance industry isn't deregulated and cannot cross state lines so premiums are higher and the pharmaceutical companies are deregulated so prices for medication goes up...Where there is no competition their is a monopoly.  The federal government needs to deregulated the health isurance industry so to make it more.competitive.  My ancestors didn't have free healthcare when they came here from europe,my native American ancestors didn't either, when this country was made into a country they didn't include healthcare and according to liberalism they did this on purpose.  I believe in free enterprise where competitor drives down prices instead of raising them.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 30, 2017, 06:58:09 AM
I believe in free enterprise where competitor drives down prices instead of raising them.

Hey cheryl,

The thing that worries me about free market healthcare solutions is that there's no incentives for insurance companies to cover those deemed at higher risk. We saw this in the U.S. before the ACA mandate, where there were many, many pre-existing conditions that pretty much excluded entire populations from being able to obtain insurance.  If you're born with some sort of disease, defect or disability, and your parents weren't able to obtain insurance, you could never, ever get it.  The mandate was one way of getting insurance for those people, single-payer is another.  I don't see the market driving any insurance companies to take on what they see as unnecessary risk. 

My ancestors didn't have phones when they came over here.  People before that didn't have automobiles.  The fact that healthcare wasn't very sophisticated years ago doesn't mean it's not a good idea to provide it now that we have the ability to treat or cure many conditions that used to be fatal. 

Without a mandate for auto insurance, all insured drivers are carrying the risk for the uninsured folks out on the roads.  Yes, that raises rates for everyone, but before that people were carrying that risk relative to damage to their vehicles and selves while the government had to assume the risk for any damage to public property.  Without health insurance, we push the treatment of uninsured people to emergency rooms, so the conditions are more dire, as people are unable to obtain treatment early on, and we end up absorbing that cost anyway.  I guess the solution of letting people without insurance just get sick and die is an option, but it really seems a shame that we, as one of the most prosperous nations on Earth, can't provide adequate healthcare to our people because we didn't used to do it. 

Erin

I said single payer. I never said free.

The single payer is the US Federal Government, aka Uncle Sam,  single payer permits huge bargaining power in dealing with providers, hospitals and large insurance corporations and has been proven to provide better health outcomes in the world's most advanced countries.

That's why the public option was so fiercely opposed when the ACA passed. 
They knew that if people had the option to buy insurance from a public option plan then everybody would choose that plan and its lower prices and better benefits and there goes the insurance company profits.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 30, 2017, 06:58:09 AMcar insurance was cheap til the federal government made it mandatory to have it

It's the states, not the federal government, that make auto insurance mandates. (That's one key difference between that and the Obamacare mandate.)

Corrected for grammar.

Guess most if you didn't get the memo Obama care failed the American people by losing Dr. ,insurance premiums through the roof all in all its a money pit and now the teeth has been yanked from the IRS now you aren't being fined for not having that worthless insurance.  I'm on medicare  and pay for a separate policy from human which costs me 110 dollars a month out of my social security  check,I didn't lose coverage or my dr.because of obamacare. Let me ask when is it the rich people's problem to be taxed to the hilt to pay for the have nots?  I remember when communities took care of each other,now they expect the wealthy to pay the perks they didn't work hard enough to get....I  know some are going to talk about my social security,but that a system I paid into when I didn't have to due to being disabled from birth but chose to work for what I have instead of lamenting how some successful businessperson  isn't paying my way. I know alot of poor people who chose to work without govt  interference and did just fine.  Remember Venezuela and when they stopped the free market what happened and is still happening they drove businesses out of country where it was better to do business.

An old proverb about socialism , you can only print so much money,and sooner or later your.going to run out of other people's money and the whole thing collapses.

The following YTvid best expresses my sentiments ...
about the "spending priorities" :icon_rolleyes2:
of the/"our" government/society ...  :icon_yikes:
Give me HealthCare ... or Give me Death ...
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi876.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab328%2F007www%2FSsP%2FSsP-NewsRepub02a_zpskdowjhqz.png%7Eoriginal&hash=ce2968094a11fc6eda64b268dc1e1757671a18fc) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwuzX38x_Ro)

Please do the research. Insurance premiums are going up for several factors, none of which are because of mandated coverage. Indeed, transgender care has been shown to decrease healthcare costs because in the long term is preventative of many things such as psychiatric care, hospitalizations etc and oh let's not forget suicide. Our suicide rate is nine times the average of all people. If one is against keeping people alive at a relatively minimum cost, well what can i say?

Indeed insurance for profit in and of itself is a broken and wasteful concept. Count me as a socialist, if believing that healthcare is a right and not something that is dependent on your ability to pay for it. (ok call me a socialist in most regards)

States like Oregon that force coverage of transgender people do it for one main reason, it is humane. Look which party generally supports this concept, look what party generally does not. Universal heath care is what we needed in this country, yesterday. California took a big step toward it this week. Good on them.

Decrying universal healthcare spending as socialist in any sort of negative way, ignores the fact that it exists in most civilized countries in the world and is effective and generally loved by their populations. It also ignores a lot of socialism that already exists in the government including military spending. Many of us feel that our military spending is bloated and unjust but would never say go without a military.

For some reason the GOP never seems to care much about military budgets and are great supporters of for profit insurance. It is almost like they are receiving direct funding from those two industries.

Our medical system is the most expensive in the world while delivering  amongst the worst health outcomes of any first world country.  Why?  Because it's not designed to deliver good health outcomes.  It is specifically designed to deliver profits to the drug companies and to the hospital systems.  In fact, it is working just as intended under pure capitalism.  If anyone thinks that our healthcare system should actually be delivering superior health outcomes then it makes absolutely no sense to continue doing what we have done in the past.  Capitalism is not a religion.  It's an economic theory that in the real world demonstrates some severe shortcomings, particularly in healthcare.  Why do people insist on continuing to do what doesn't work?


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

The problem is 95% of Americans do not want socialism because this country was founded as a republic. What  I do is when someone comes up to me wanting this country to turn socialist I tell em to move to a country that already has it and leave my beloved America alone. Part of my family escaped England in the 1600 til they finally made the voyage over they wanted freedom without govt interference,the other part of my family didn't want the whites here ,but here they came to be free to shape their own destinies without govt interference. This country is about the people and people have forgotten that because of Roosevelt selling us into a democracy where the govt makes the decisions not the people,it's actually the govt  that answers too the people,but these days people want the govt to provide but where does that money come from? Some say let's tax the wealthy til they are poor and tax their businesses out of existence but then where is the money going to come from? Most don't realize it doesn't appear like magic or we can keep printing make believe currency backed by nothing but human beings.  See just because I'm Transgender doesn't mean I didn't study,when I was in the 7th grade I knew more about our govt and history then the teacher teaching it for I schooled her on the real world,for they.didn't teach history in u er liberal college it seems and she left me alone giving me a's just to sit quietly and do my own thing and she would leave me alone. I'm not being mean but look what happened to Rome when it went from a republic to a democracy  it became a church to save itself from ruin but still maintained control through threat of death.

Just some figures to consider:

Corporate tax rates:
1915    1%
1940  24%
1951  51%
2014  35%

Top Marginal Income tax rates
1915   7%
1940  80%
1951  92%
2014  35%

Corporate Profits
1951  ~$50B
2014  $1.7 Trillion

The poor are not stealing anyone's money.  The rich are not being taxed until they're poor.  Corporations are not being taxed out of business. 

Marie Antoinette - "Let them eat cake."
Inavka Trump - "Make champagne popsicles this Memorial Day!"

We're not becoming Rome, we're becoming pre-Revolutionary France.  And that didn't end well either. 

Erin

So the problem is someone worked hard and became successful so someone else doesn't have to ? Someone doesn't go into business to fail but succeed. Just because they have money and you don't doesn't give you the right to steal their money through unfair taxation that's how youdive companies out to do business elsewhere. Just ask California about their corporations moving too Texas about that.  Can I ask do you really understand how an economy is suppose to work?

I think that the system and the values supporting it are important, but the results are also important.  If a free market health care system is resulting in worse outcomes for virtually everyone in the U.S. save for the ultra-wealthy, then I believe it's not only fair to evaluate alternate solutions, it's our obligation. 

If the outcome of capitalism is ultimately for one single person to accumulate all of the wealth, all of the money, I don't believe that the entire rest of the population should simply sigh and say "well, he/she got all of the money fair and square," and then all die.  If the result is an inequitable distribution that's perpetuated by that same money influencing legislation and policy, then maybe the system requires a little tune-up.  If this is how the system is supposed to work, then it's not a good system, in my mind. 

I live in California, by the way, and every one of the people I know here that complain about taxes and businesses having a hard time is currently employed in a high-paying job in tech or retired from same with a guaranteed pension, which a lot of people outside of L.A. have probably never even heard of.  California is paying the Federal government between $1.01 and $1.70 in taxes for every $1.00 of Federal money req'd, which has put it in the top five donor states over the last ten years or so.  I think one could do a lot worse than live in California.  Just a thought. 

Erin

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 05, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
.didn't teach history in u er liberal college it seems

Don't make assumptions.  My college was the opposite of liberal.



Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

QuoteThe problem is 95% of Americans do not want socialism because this country was founded as a republic. What  I do is when someone comes up to me wanting this country to turn socialist I tell em to move to a country that already has it and leave my beloved America alone.

What does one have to do with the other?  Being a republic doesn't mean a country can't help the average person improve their lives.  Incidentally, the England of time of the American Revolution was a very capitalistic society, with extreme class differences.  What do you think was the inspiration for Dickens to write his stories?

Incidentally, I came across this article recently:
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/06/03/democrats-fight-trump-in-bid-to-reignite-push-for-canada-style-health-care.html (https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/06/03/democrats-fight-trump-in-bid-to-reignite-push-for-canada-style-health-care.html)

QuoteSo the problem is someone worked hard and became successful so someone else doesn't have to ?

What about that large portion of the population that does work hard, but doesn't earn enough to properly support themselves?  Why are they being forced into poverty?  Why is it so wrong to help them?  What about those who can't work?

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 06, 2017, 12:40:04 AM
So the problem is someone worked hard and became successful so someone else doesn't have to ? Someone doesn't go into business to fail but succeed. Just because they have money and you don't doesn't give you the right to steal their money through unfair taxation that's how youdive companies out to do business elsewhere. Just ask California about their corporations moving too Texas about that.  Can I ask do you really understand how an economy is suppose to work?

Steal their money through unfair taxation? what do you mean? tax avoidance is rife all over the world. Most citizens do pay their tax but seems as though certain multi national companies and certain very rich ppl play the system and get away with ripping countries off. What's wrong with socialism? do you prefer predatory capitalism? Because that only seems to be benefical for a few ppl doesn't it. I guess everyone has to wait for the riches wealth to trickle on down. And blaming socialism for the Venezuelan crisis is a bit misleading because funnily enough those profiting from the crisis are mostly right wing elitist who delve into fraudulent import deals and criticise socialism to deflect from their own criminal behaviour. Unsurprising that many hold this view of socialism though, capitalism just has to be maintained doesn't it. US media tend to make fun of the situation in Venezuela as if the predatory capitalist system in the US doesn't fail it's citizens as well. It would be so kind of you to explain to everyone how an economy works?

And the US is already filled with socialist programs so i don't understand why ppl rail against socialism. And 95% of US already love socialism lol they just don't like to know that things are socialist because socialism is something that the US has been taught to fear. As rich as the US is it's disgraceful that peoples healthcare of all things is messed around with. Has military spending been cut? Some of that money could go towards fundamental services ppl need, who knows they might even get the military out of countries they don't belong in. Oops what will breitbart and fox news talk about then.  ::)

QuotePart of my family escaped England in the 1600 til they finally made the voyage over they wanted freedom without govt interference

You seem to have a very distorted view of history.  Back in those days, the main driver for moving to the New World, was to escape religious persecution.  Even then, it wasn't until 1776 that they parted from England.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 05, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
look what happened to Rome when it went from a republic to a democracy

When did that happen exactly? Could you elaborate on that a bit with dates and discuss the consequences a bit more? I'm not sure exactly which historical event/period you are describing here in support of your argument.

QuoteSome say let's tax the wealthy til they are poor and tax their businesses out of existence but then where is the money going to come from?

QuoteJust because they have money and you don't doesn't give you the right to steal their money through unfair taxation that's how youdive companies out to do business elsewhere.

Perhaps you should research some recent history.  The standard of living had been rising for decades.  Then Reagan got in and started cutting taxes for the wealthy and corporations.  Since then, we've seen a significant decline in the standard of living for the bulk of the population, while the extremely wealthy have been getting much wealthier and more and more of the wealth being held by fewer and fewer.  Contrary to the "trickle down" theory of Reaganomics, money floats up.  Perhaps, since the government represents everyone, it has a duty to level things out a bit, so that the wealthy don't wind up owning everything.

Quote from: Jane Emily on June 06, 2017, 08:58:04 AM
When did that happen exactly? Could you elaborate on that a bit with dates and discuss the consequences a bit more? I'm not sure exactly which historical event/period you are describing here in support of your argument.

Yeah, Rome stopped being a Republic in 49 BC and didn't become a democracy until after WWII.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Jane Emily on June 06, 2017, 08:58:04 AM
When did that happen exactly? Could you elaborate on that a bit with dates and discuss the consequences a bit more? I'm not sure exactly which historical event/period you are describing here in support of your argument.

Probably around the time the Goths invaded.  Yeah, right!   ;)

As I recall from history, Rome wasn't much of a democracy back then.  It was more of plutocracy, which is government for the wealthy.

Quote from: AnneK on June 06, 2017, 07:34:04 AM
You seem to have a very distorted view of history.  Back in those days, the main driver for moving to the New World, was to escape religious persecution.  Even then, it wasn't until 1776 that they parted from England.

Not so. It was just one of many. The main reason was to attain a life of opportunity. Religion was the reason for Pilgrims and Puritans but to say it was the motivation for most of the immigration would be false. As always greed was a great motivator.

My ancestors came here in the 1700s for an entirely different reason.  One to avoid prison and another to avoid probable execution for participating in a failed insurrection in Germany.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

One should really study history objectively and understand not only to the level that it supports some simplistic argument but with all of the nuances of "what really happened". Democracy and Republics have never meant "all men and women for themselves" and are never ever a pure meritocracy. There can be no pure meritocracies because it just doesn't work given human nature and its actually inhuman to dole out resources only based on merit.

Democratic Socialism no matter if it flies under the banner of a republic like Portugal, a Monarchy like Canada or some other form of democracy such as Switzerland, have been a success. They are not new concepts. Social reform in Europe started in the 19th century and greatly effected the empires of the time.

The US is already a socialist country and has been for most of its existence. Postal service, public education, a military that everyone pays for, public utilities and roads, airports, medicare, social security (yes people pay into it but it is managed and distributed based on a social contract) and the list goes on and on.

Healthcare is one area we have woefully lagged the rest of the world and that has caused corporate welfare ( you are welcome Walmart), inequality and plain killed many people. Our public education is also suffering based on comparisons to other countries. Still, we have by far the largest military expenditure in the world and for some reason many people don't ever question that or compare it to the scenario where a big portion of it could be cut and provided to citizens in the form of a better healthcare system.

Quote from: Deborah on June 06, 2017, 11:48:29 AM
My ancestors came here in the 1700s for an entirely different reason.  One to avoid prison and another to avoid probable execution for participating in a failed insurrection in Germany.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Yeah a whole side of my family too fled Germany in the late 1840s due to political unrest. I'm sure they believed they were saving their lives.

Quote from: AnneK on June 06, 2017, 06:19:17 AM
What about that large portion of the population that does work hard, but doesn't earn enough to properly support themselves?  Why are they being forced into poverty?  Why is it so wrong to help them?  What about those who can't work?

Under the Clinton and Obama administration's they went after the middle class to break it,for without the middle class the whole thing collapses,the thing is Clinton tried but the Republican held senate refused to go along with Clinton, under Obama we had both houses controlled by the Democrats and they went on a spending spree to break the middle class and it worked til the Republicans regained both houses and stopped the spending spree.

See I worked for 22 yrs on paper with a disability so to pay into it for insurance toward the day I couldn't work full time anymore,the problem I have is alot if people want work but the jobs were shipped overseas  under the Clinton administration for the Clinton were in bed with China at the time and it paid off big time for Bill and Hillary for they became rich after leaving office by selling out Americans for money.

See before we had government interference communities took care of one another,now they expect the government too do it because of social programming,in a free market healthcare insurance rates would drop just like car insurance did when it was deregulated,where there is competition prices go down not up.

Socialism look to Venezuela under Chavez,everything became owned by the government and prices were set so there was not profit or competition so businesses closed or moved to Brazil,and now their economy tanked,food supplies are short or non existent. Britain did not have capitalism for the nobles ran the government through parliament and taxation for the colonies for taxes were higher then the other colonies because the output was higher,plus the colonial script was worthless in England.

See I understand how economies work and how they collapse,go look at a socialist country and compare it with our country and you will soon find the USA is a better place to live,Muslims come to America like the illigal too take what the USA has to offer but want to change the country into the one they left,which bothers me,if you didn't like where you came from why change another country to the standards of the one you left. I've had family on these shores for almost 400 yrs on my mom's side and over 3,000 yrs on my dad's side so I love this country and don't want it too change anymore then it has for over the last 84 yrs.

Quote from: Deborah on June 06, 2017, 11:48:29 AM
My ancestors came here in the 1700s for an entirely different reason.  One to avoid prison and another to avoid probable execution for participating in a failed insurrection in Germany.

Interesting.  The first of my relatives to come to North America arrived in 1630 to Plymouth Colony.  He was a deacon so I imagine he could have been fleeing persecution.  There were also quite a few Quakers in the family tree.  I imagine many fled England because of persecution and then fled to Canada after the Revolutionary war.   The rest of my relatives came to find new opportunities.

Paige :)

QuoteSee I understand how economies work and how they collapse,go look at a socialist country and compare it with our country and you will soon find the USA is a better place to live

Compare with northern Europe? 

P.S. look at gas prices where there is competition prices go down not up so to compete. The reason people came here after the revolution with Britain was to build better lives see capitalism is what this.country was founded on,you could come here broke  and through.hard work open their own businesses and compete for the.consumer. People came here to be free without government interference on their lives.

In 1917 the.democratic congress voted in the federal  Reserve and in 1933 the Federal Reserve bankrupt the USA  in 1933 when Roosevelt sold us to the world Bank and our money became colonial script  backed by nothing and our government became a war powers government controlled by the fed.and the world bank.
JFK was going to stop this bleeding and fleecing of Americans but was murdered before he.could sign the paperwork. The USA isn't rich for the wealth was stolen and is still being stolen through the fed and world bank,when our government wants too print more money they have to do a census first,for humans are collateral so the federal can print more money based on new population numbers, that's why foreigners who come here have a better shot at succeeding then the natural born american. Like I said I know how.it works for I studied this for over 40 yrs.

Quote from: Paige on June 06, 2017, 01:50:38 PM
Interesting.  The first of my relatives to come to North America arrived in 1630 to Plymouth Colony.  He was a deacon so I imagine he could have been fleeing persecution.  There were also quite a few Quakers in the family tree.  I imagine many fled England because of persecution and then fled to Canada after the Revolutionary war.   The rest of my relatives came to find new opportunities.

Paige :)

My family started the Plymouth colony,William Brewster and Miles Standish.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 06, 2017, 01:35:45 PM
See before we had government interference communities took care of one another,

over 3,000 yrs on my dad's side so I love this country and don't want it too change anymore then it has for over the last 84 yrs.

Hi Cheryl,

I'm guessing your father has Native American roots.  I can't imagine anyone with that heritage talking about the good old days, maybe pre-Columbus.

Take care,
Paige :)

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 06, 2017, 01:35:45 PM
in a free market healthcare insurance rates would drop just like car insurance did when it was deregulated,where there is competition prices go down not up.

Yes, before the ACA we had lower prices for an inferior product that excluded tens of millions of people.  Second, the market is not truly free as there are just a few insurance companies and the barriers to entry into that industry are huge.  It, like many other large industries today are oligopolies.  That is not free and it doesn't work in the interest of the consumer.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Deborah on June 06, 2017, 03:36:46 PM
Yes, before the ACA we had lower prices for an inferior product that excluded tens of millions of people.  Second, the market is not truly free as there are just a few insurance companies and the barriers to entry into that industry are huge.  It, like many other large industries today are oligopolies.  That is not free and it doesn't work in the interest of the consumer.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

When I did have company insurance it was pretty cheap for a family of 3 for mine was paid by the company and it was great insurance and my deductible was cheap also. Now I have humana insurance and it's a pretty good policy 25 dollars for my gp and 45 for a specialist and I pay 119 a month and have been on it for 5 yrs now with no problems they even have Transgender care on my policy.  I was exempt from Obamacare due to being on medicare which saved me a lot of money. If you deregulated healthcare and make companies compete for your business prices will be driven down not up,government healthcare is a monopoly.and not deregulated the pharmaceutical industry that's why prices are high for medications,you make pharmaceutical companies compete prices will go down. That's how a free market is suppose to work,I may not have a paper stating my education but I couldn't find a college too teach me for I was ahead of the teachers who taught my field of study,so I went to the school of hard knocks instead and learned alot,drove truck across the USA more times then most folks and I observed alot,I was the go too assistant manager for a dominoes I worked for because I competed for business and took alot of business away from 2 pizza places in town and closed a couple,became the only assistant Mgr too bonus 2 of the owners stores,matter of fact was the only one he had that could do it,not even he or the supervisor could do it,it was because I made sure the customer got the best pizza I could make,I didn't allow very many people to run the make line that was my area and I was fast enough to do it by myself.  See I know how the free market works for when I quit that job over a disagreement that was not in my best interest the owner lost both stores. I worked in the house hold moving industry and saved customers money which made the owners mad and the fired me,they went out of business. Socialism does not and will never work nor redistribution of wealth, if you want wealth find a product and sell it,if I had a backer for a pizza and spaghetti place I would put alot of other businesses out of business for I could make a superior product cheaper then they can,but not having a boost kept me from succeeding,this is what I would like help with for then I could get off social security and make a better living, I showed several backers the numbers and it scared em off for they couldn't figure my numbers out and the profit margins because they were in the high range which scared em off.

The free market this country was founded on worked so well international bankers wanted the country and the profits when 2 wars and a failed backing of the south, they found a way in through the northern politicians and they worked at it til the Republicans revolted and the Democrats embraced it and the Federal Reserve system was passed which placed this country into the hands of 12 families and made them richer and Americans poorer, even billionaires are pale in comparison too the wealth these 12 families have.  If we obsolete the federal Reserve our debt would be null and void but our resources belong to these 12 families so we have nothing to base a new currency on, Johnson seen to that by flooding Europe with gold and emptying fort Knox and our gold reserves,our currency is worthless if the federal Reserve stopped backing it you would have nothing but empty paper with a promise.  Like I said I know alot about our govt and economy.

More of that res ipsa loquitur sort of brilliance to shine the light of true understanding on the way things really are.  How fascinating to read of the historical contortions some polarized positions invoke. 

Diverse political positions within the transgender community?  Oh yeah, we got that covered :D

In The USA We Do both,weapons To Keep The Govt In check,And food To feed us while we protect ourselves.  This is why the USA has a set of amendments making sure of that right.

I've been accused of being afraid of socialism, the problem is I am not,I just know socialism fails the people everytime,socialism has been tried for over 5,000 yrs and still doesn't work no matter how you flavor it to make it look good, socialism only takes care of those in power and destitutes those not in power. I'm very highly educated and have studied countries and nations for over 40 yrs. Capitalism works if there is no govt interference and the middle class thrives, socialism  no one really thrives but the top 5% who hold power.

QuoteIn The USA We Do both,weapons To Keep The Govt In check

My impression, from this side of the border, is that Americans have much more to fear from those who feel they need weapons to "keep the govt in check" than they do from the government.  A lot of those types are downright scary!  One big problem the U.S. has is those who think the solution to every problem, including gun violence, is more guns.  Maybe they're the cause of the problem.  Also, don't think I'm against guns.  In fact, I used to own a rifle.  But I am against those guns first types.  Don't forget, the NRA is largely a front for the gun industry and prior to mid 60s, the NRA was mainly about guns safety and responsible gun ownership.  Now, it's become a very serious contributor to violence in the U.S..

What's weird is I have a Derringer and it hasn't shot me yet...Now I'm kinda scared thinking it may be plotting kill me.....sorry not trying to be sarcastic, but gun violence  pales in comparison to legal murder of the unborn,more unborn babies die everyday then anyone due to gun violence.  Matter of fact where the populace is armed robberies  go down and the only ones usually wind up dead is the bad guy,too some the bad guy is the good guy trying to make a living robbing and some dastardly home owner or store owner had to shoot him why he was a good man just doing his job robbing and killing. Enough of that before I get my walking papers.

Once appon a time Germany banned citizens from owning guns we seen how that turned out,Russia, China,Venezuela all the same,Europe is falling to Islam because of gun bans. The USA is a safe place in areas where there is no gun bans,look at florids,Oklahoma, Texas,and other states that allow open of concealed carry th I see places are safe to live in for those states along with a few others respect the citizens, where there is gun  bans the violence goes up. 

The USA  was set up so the govt would fear and respect their citizens,but most of that ended in a heap in 1933 and the nightmare began, the government  has been trying to ban weapons so too be able to run roughshod over us, besides alot of the military would revolt against the government so the USA stays a safe place too live where you can be somewhat free.

IDebated  alot of so called learned people and all they seem to know is what the universaties teach and they don't go beyond that,that's why I didn't go for I knew more then those teachers by the time I was in 7th grade on the rruth of the robbery that took place in 1933, bUT what stopped them from fully stealing our country was a armed population, so they got smart and created the department of  education to slowly mind wash the young so when they got older they could take more and more and the cycle still goes on. I was smart by the time I was in second grade I went to outside sources and actual history and became a enemy of my history and economic teachers for I knew the truth they weren't teaching same with religion. When I saw the matrix trilogy I started to use it to slowly wake others up to the truth that you can find easily on the Internet these days,when all I had was what I could find for we had no web.

Like I said socialism never works out for those not in power,read too many examples where it was tried and failed.

Anyone who thinks that the military is going to revolt to support some right wing revolution is one who has no understanding of the US Military.

And anyone who thinks that armed citizens can stand against US Soldiers will be in for a rude awakening.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

I know there are many that would jump for joy if all guns were made to be illegal. Of course, they do not take into consideration the need to hunt in order to control animal populations. Not everyone lives in cites, nor wants to. Personally, I feel no need to carry a weapon. If threatened, I am sure someone else will have a handgun handy to remedy the situation.
The military will follow the orders given them. A nephew of mine said he would shoot his own mother if ordered to do so. This is what they are taught, and they have much better weaponry than any citizen could have. If the military came for me, I'm a goner. Alas, I fear more of Russia taking over. I do not trust the Trump administration.

Seriously... and I don't even live in the city, I live in the backwoods of the appalachian mountains.  Here we have bears, deer, racoons, weasels, and other varmint that need shooting.  We also have meth heads, drug dealers, and just general scum who'd as soon shoot you and bury you under some random trailer as look at you.

Yes I believe in self defense.  I honestly think you're an idiot not to.  Have I shot anyone? No, never.  Do I plan on it? Of course not!  Should the need arise would I? Yes.  And none of my firearms have gone off & plotted my murder amazing as it seems.

Just because something isn't right for you, lets not mandate its not right for everyone else too.

Soldiers are trained to refuse to obey illegal orders and trained to know what is illegal.  Obeying an illegal order is illegal in itself.  So they are not simply killer robots.  However, they do take an oath and they take that oath seriously.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 07, 2017, 08:47:12 PM
What's weird is I have a Derringer and it hasn't shot me yet...Now I'm kinda scared thinking it may be plotting kill me.....sorry not trying to be sarcastic, but gun violence  pales in comparison to legal murder of the unborn,more unborn babies die everyday then anyone due to gun violence.  Matter of fact where the populace is armed robberies  go down and the only ones usually wind up dead is the bad guy,too some the bad guy is the good guy trying to make a living robbing and some dastardly home owner or store owner had to shoot him why he was a good man just doing his job robbing and killing. Enough of that before I get my walking papers.

Once appon a time Germany banned citizens from owning guns we seen how that turned out,Russia, China,Venezuela all the same,Europe is falling to Islam because of gun bans. The USA is a safe place in areas where there is no gun bans,look at florids,Oklahoma, Texas,and other states that allow open of concealed carry th I see places are safe to live in for those states along with a few others respect the citizens, where there is gun  bans the violence goes up. 

The USA  was set up so the govt would fear and respect their citizens,but most of that ended in a heap in 1933 and the nightmare began, the government  has been trying to ban weapons so too be able to run roughshod over us, besides alot of the military would revolt against the government so the USA stays a safe place too live where you can be somewhat free.

IDebated  alot of so called learned people and all they seem to know is what the universaties teach and they don't go beyond that,that's why I didn't go for I knew more then those teachers by the time I was in 7th grade on the rruth of the robbery that took place in 1933, bUT what stopped them from fully stealing our country was a armed population, so they got smart and created the department of  education to slowly mind wash the young so when they got older they could take more and more and the cycle still goes on. I was smart by the time I was in second grade I went to outside sources and actual history and became a enemy of my history and economic teachers for I knew the truth they weren't teaching same with religion. When I saw the matrix trilogy I started to use it to slowly wake others up to the truth that you can find easily on the Internet these days,when all I had was what I could find for we had no web.

Like I said socialism never works out for those not in power,read too many examples where it was tried and failed.

What do you mean Europe is falling to Islam because of gun bans? By that logic wouldn't that mean Australia would be falling to Islam because of gun bans? Because it isn't. Wonder who funds these fundamentalist groups? Who just made an arms deal with Saudi Arabia? There are 2 groups which use a distorted view of Islam to cause hatred and division and they are Daesh and ppl from the far right.

Another thing, how is Florida safe? Gun homicide has risen in Florida due to the stand your ground legislation making it easier for ppl to kill others and then claim self defense later.

And how has the education dpt brainwashed the younger population? It's true that the more educated you are the more progressive you are, i don't see anything wrong with that. An educated population is a positive thing. A more educated/progressive populace is going to mean that people like you and the rest of us are more accepted and can live without the bs we live with today. And i don't think the US is at the same level of North Korea in respect to brainwashing its youth lol.

You still saying socialism doesn't work, full socialism may not work but social democratic nations tend to prosper. Venezuela is not a good example of how socialism has failed (if you had mentioned Czechoslovakia i might agree). There were far more factors that added to the decline of Venezuela.

Really the more you are educated the more your progressive?  This is why I skipped going to college for most are liberal leaning and I knew I would not be welcome. For I don't believe or pander too that propaganda,I was raised too be a free thinker which got me in trouble for I can't be controlled not one teacher in my education controlled me and they found it best not to challenge me,not wise for teachers too show face to a student.  They made a mistake when I was in 6th grade by giving me a I.Q. test and found they couldn't teach me for I was beyond them,so instead of promoting me they let me do my own thing and just coast,graduated on em too.

I've read the arguments many times well socialism failed in that country but progressive Americans can do better,well 10 trillion dollars later and failed inner cities and a nation in heavy debt. Well 8 yrs of it and it failed so bad the conservatives are now in power, wow,hillary carried the major cities but trump took the country,wonder why,maybe people got sick of it.  Social programs don't work ask the blks living in poverty in the ghettos,the blks that gained power robbed their own people, ask the American Indians living on reservations how that is working,the ones that have casino's have it somewhat luckier,but many don't.

So tell me more of this socialist utopia we can have in the USA if we give our lives into the hands of politicians?

Europe i s falling to Islam ,that's a fact, Muslims in Texas have learned hard how we can careless of their so called religious laws,we passed laws preventing them to put their rights above texans. Matter of fact a couple of Muslims found out d op nt mess with a Texan for it can get you dead,a dead they got,they go elsewhere out of state where it safer too do what trouble they want to do. Right now Texas is safer then alot of places in Europe because we are armed.

Quote from: AnneK on May 29, 2017, 03:17:13 PM
I live in Canada, where health care is available for all.  In Ontario, we used to have premiums, but they were abolished years ago.  This covers basic health care, though not most prescriptions or dental.  Private insurance is available to cover these and extras, such as private rooms in the hospital, glasses, etc.  According to what I've read, the U.S. has the most expensive health care in the industrialized world and many people are still left out.  Private insurance coverage here is often provided by employers, but may also be obtained individually or through some group.  For example, I'm eligible for a group plan through the college I went to and also the auto association.  Probably elsewhere too.

This morning I had some blood tests, as requisitioned by my doctor, and I just had to provide my health card to have them covered.

Why does health care have to be so difficult in the U.S.?

It is simple.
$$$$$$$$$
It has always astounded me that to get good health insurance you have to probably compromise somewhere else in your employment.  i.e. wages.
As someone posted above, everyone in the USA should all assume that everyone in the best country in the world earns a living wage and health care insurance is not based on your employment status.  Like all other 1st world nations.

As long as the USA places profit before people's health we will continue to spiral to our future as a 3rd world nation.  AKA Somalia.

Also I find multiple fonts and colors disconcerting.  Keep it simple baby.S

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 07, 2017, 11:17:27 PM
Europe i s falling to Islam ,that's a fact, Muslims in Texas have learned hard how we can careless of their so called religious laws,we passed laws preventing them to put their rights above texans. Matter of fact a couple of Muslims found out d op nt mess with a Texan for it can get you dead,a dead they got,they go elsewhere out of state where it safer too do what trouble they want to do. Right now Texas is safer then alot of places in Europe because we are armed.

So are you proud of the burning of the mosque and the rise in hate crimes, bigoted graffiti, racist fliers handed out at universities against Muslims in Texas?

What legislation was passed to prevent them from putting their rights above texans? I'd be interested to know how Muslims were going to do that?

It is not a fact that Europe is falling to Islam. Where did you learn this? lol

 I have removed one post for bashing people.

If there is any more I shall get rid of the thread.

Cindy

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 30, 2017, 06:58:09 AM
I would like to add any insurance goes up in price when it becomes law to have it..car insurance was cheap til the federal government made it mandatory to have it and the premiums went through the roof, then the auto insurance industry got deregulated and alot of insurance companies sprang up offering cheaper rates then  the big insurance companies and premiums went down and now there is major competition.  The health isurance industry isn't deregulated and cannot cross state lines so premiums are higher and the pharmaceutical companies are deregulated so prices for medication goes up...Where there is no competition their is a monopoly.  The federal government needs to deregulated the health isurance industry so to make it more.competitive.  My ancestors didn't have free healthcare when they came here from europe,my native American ancestors didn't either, when this country was made into a country they didn't include healthcare and according to liberalism they did this on purpose.  I believe in free enterprise where competitor drives down prices instead of raising them.

Cheryl.  First, the federal government has nothing to do with vehicle insurance.  It's one of those pesky state rights issues. Blame it (whatever "it" is) on your state legislators. 
Second, the insurance company executives can sit down at the Waffle House and divide their markets up anyway they want now (or pre-ObamaCare) an there is nothing you or I can do about it to get prices down.   The system is rigged.
Third.  Your ancestors average age was 47 years old for men...35 for women.  Your native American ancestors was even lower.  Your ancestors did not have cars, regular jobs or houses with electricity or A/C.  Sweetie, times change.  Maybe we need to also.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on May 30, 2017, 10:38:22 AM
Guess most if you didn't get the memo Obama care failed the American people by losing Dr. ,insurance premiums through the roof all in all its a money pit and now the teeth has been yanked from the IRS now you aren't being fined for not having that worthless insurance.  I'm on medicare  and pay for a separate policy from human which costs me 110 dollars a month out of my social security  check,I didn't lose coverage or my dr.because of obamacare. Let me ask when is it the rich people's problem to be taxed to the hilt to pay for the have nots?  I remember when communities took care of each other,now they expect the wealthy to pay the perks they didn't work hard enough to get....I  know some are going to talk about my social security,but that a system I paid into when I didn't have to due to being disabled from birth but chose to work for what I have instead of lamenting how some successful businessperson  isn't paying my way. I know alot of poor people who chose to work without govt  interference and did just fine.  Remember Venezuela and when they stopped the free market what happened and is still happening they drove businesses out of country where it was better to do business.

An old proverb about socialism , you can only print so much money,and sooner or later your.going to run out of other people's money and the whole thing collapses.

Seeing how you are dependent on Medicare and Social Security, I would suggest that you pray that the money does not stop flowing to the Feds and thus to your socialist needs.
I struggle to see how your logic works.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 05, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
The problem is 95% of Americans do not want socialism because this country was founded as a republic. What  I do is when someone comes up to me wanting this country to turn socialist I tell em to move to a country that already has it and leave my beloved America alone. Part of my family escaped England in the 1600 til they finally made the voyage over they wanted freedom without govt interference,the other part of my family didn't want the whites here ,but here they came to be free to shape their own destinies without govt interference. This country is about the people and people have forgotten that because of Roosevelt selling us into a democracy where the govt makes the decisions not the people,it's actually the govt  that answers too the people,but these days people want the govt to provide but where does that money come from? Some say let's tax the wealthy til they are poor and tax their businesses out of existence but then where is the money going to come from? Most don't realize it doesn't appear like magic or we can keep printing make believe currency backed by nothing but human beings.  See just because I'm Transgender doesn't mean I didn't study,when I was in the 7th grade I knew more about our govt and history then the teacher teaching it for I schooled her on the real world,for they.didn't teach history in u er liberal college it seems and she left me alone giving me a's just to sit quietly and do my own thing and she would leave me alone. I'm not being mean but look what happened to Rome when it went from a republic to a democracy  it became a church to save itself from ruin but still maintained control through threat of death.

Cheryl you intellectual processes are remarkable.  And you proclamations are too.  Your logic, not so much.
Your country is a socialist country.  As per your previous post, you are a dependent on that socialist country's benefits. 

Quote from: Dayta on June 06, 2017, 12:22:24 AM
Just some figures to consider:

Corporate tax rates:
1915    1%
1940  24%
1951  51%
2014  35%

Top Marginal Income tax rates
1915   7%
1940  80%
1951  92%
2014  35%

Corporate Profits
1951  ~$50B
2014  $1.7 Trillion

The poor are not stealing anyone's money.  The rich are not being taxed until they're poor.  Corporations are not being taxed out of business. 

Marie Antoinette - "Let them eat cake."
Inavka Trump - "Make champagne popsicles this Memorial Day!"

We're not becoming Rome, we're becoming pre-Revolutionary France.  And that didn't end well either. 

Erin

You go, girl

Quote from: Paige on June 06, 2017, 01:50:38 PM
Interesting.  The first of my relatives to come to North America arrived in 1630 to Plymouth Colony.  He was a deacon so I imagine he could have been fleeing persecution.  There were also quite a few Quakers in the family tree.  I imagine many fled England because of persecution and then fled to Canada after the Revolutionary war.   The rest of my relatives came to find new opportunities.

Paige :)

Paige
We are relatives.  i have supposedly 13 ancestors on the Mayflower.  It is still hard to get admitted to the Mayflower Society.
To get my grandsons accepted is a life goal.  15th generation.
Julie

Quote from: JulieOnHerWay on June 08, 2017, 12:21:21 AM
Seeing how you are dependent on Medicare and Social Security, I would suggest that you pray that the money does not stop flowing to the Feds and thus to your socialist needs.
I struggle to see how your logic works.

You must have no knowledge of how social security works, see I paid a tax to social security towards the day I couldn't work,under the LBJ administration the democratic congress got their hands on it and bankrupted it. The government has to pay me back for the money I sent in. So how is collecting my money from the government socialism? It's my money held in trust by the government. .

On another note I see we have more mayflower descendants here,mine was William Brewster and Miles Standish  direct decendant, if it wasn't for those 2 their wouldn't have been a mayflower or Plymouth colony.

Also the federal government did make it mandatory to have car insurance but the industry became deregulated and car insurance went down,deregulated the health industry making it possible to compete.  I know how this works, look at the trucking industry due to deregulation freight became cheaper and companies had to compete to stay alive.


What is scary is how progressives plot to steal other people's money in the name of redistribution of wealth, except the wealth stays in the hands of the 10 percent and never trickles down. Some of you must think I have no clue too the real world which is even scarier.

I have been keeping this line according to TOS.and haven't tried to bash anyone but certain groups do not buy into political correctness.

It's good to see you are up for some discussion. 
Yes, I have a more than average understanding of SS.   All the money you have contributed to SS over the years are usually distributed to you within a few years(5 -10) of retirement.  After that we are dependent on the working class to support us.  There are many problems with the SS system but it has worked well for over 70+ years and as long as we have a robust economy with a large work force making a living it works.   Yes, your money is held in trust and it would be nice if the money that Congress took from SS was returned.  It was looted to balance the budget and not raise taxes on the rich.  So it is delayed socialism.
And we are cousins too.  Brewster is one of the known relative of mine also.  The hard part to verification is to nail it down for the hootie-snooties at the Mayflower Society.

You are right and incorrect at the same time.  While the feds have required some individual responsibility for vehicle owners, it is indirect.   It ties fed dollars for state DOT projects to state requirements for insurance.  Kind of a left-right compromise.  Follow link for more info.
https://usinsuranceagents.com/answers/2493/federal-government-require-drivers-carry-insurance-coverage
From the explainer.  "The only connection that the federal government has to car insurance is that it limits the amount of federal highway assistance provided to states that do require insurance under state law. While this is not a direct requirement for people to have insurance, the funds provided for highway projects is a tremendous incentive that most of the states have chosen to accept."
To equate everyone's health care insurance to the trucking industry is bit of a stretch.  While we all need trucking, in the long run we need heath care coverage more.  And it should not be  choice or to me even a part of the discussion.  Besides, have you been to a large truck stop lately and seen all the truckers hanging out because of federal mandated rest requirements.  They have logged their maximum hours and have to take  break.  That is very socialist, big government, inefficient and a detriment to a free economy.  On the other hand, the drivers are more alert and get in less accidents while their loads sit in a truck stop.  We seemed to have adjusted to 12 hours late tomatoes somehow.
While I will embrace that I am a progressive I don't see it as a pejorative or a negative thing.  I am a progressive that wants to see all the citizens of my nation to enjoy the fruits of their labors and have a bright future for themselves and their family.  And not be under the thumb or a minimum wage slave to their corporate masters.  It is not that I want to steal the rich folks money.  It is to level the playing field and control corporate greed run amuck to benefit the greater good.

Quote from: JulieOnHerWay on June 08, 2017, 02:14:45 AM
It's good to see you are up for some discussion. 
Yes, I have a more than average understanding of SS.   All the money you have contributed to SS over the years are usually distributed to you within a few years(5 -10) of retirement.  After that we are dependent on the working class to support us.  There are many problems with the SS system but it has worked well for over 70+ years and as long as we have a robust economy with a large work force making a living it works.   Yes, your money is held in trust and it would be nice if the money that Congress took from SS was returned.  It was looted to balance the budget and not raise taxes on the rich.  So it is delayed socialism.
And we are cousins too.  Brewster is one of the known relative of mine also.  The hard part to verification is to nail it down for the hootie-snooties at the Mayflower Society.

If I wanted to be apart if the mayflower society I wouldn't have any problems,my great grandpa was direct decedent of the Brewster family,my great grandma was direct decedant to Miles Standish. My great grandpa was born in 1865 and lived to be a 102 when he died in 1967 when I was 2. My dad's side we don't know much of outside of being Irish Cherokee and related to Jesse and Frank James. Those two brothers did alot to fight corporate greed and gave what they stole to the farmers in need in Missouri which made alot if wealthy people upset.

QuoteOnce appon a time Germany banned citizens from owning guns we seen how that turned out,Russia, China,Venezuela all the same,Europe is falling to Islam because of gun bans. The USA is a safe place in areas where there is no gun bans,look at florids,Oklahoma, Texas,and other states that allow open of concealed carry th I see places are safe to live in for those states along with a few others respect the citizens, where there is gun  bans the violence goes up. 

In Canda, guns are not banned.  However, we do things that lead to responsible gun ownership.  For example, before I bought that rifle, I took a gun safety course.  How many Americans have done that?  Carry permits, for handguns, are hard to come by and required a thorough background check.  Compare that to the Newton school shooting a few years back.  The guy that did that was known to be psychotic.  Yet despite that, his mother thought it would be a good idea for him to have access to guns.  Well, she was his first victim.  Just the other day, I heard about a 3 year old, who shot a 2 YO.  How is that responsible gun ownership, when pre-schoolers can grab a gun?  What about those stand your ground laws, where claiming you felt threatened can get you off for murder.  You may recall that guy in Florida, a couple of years back, who actually pursued the guy he killed, even after being told by police to stop following him.  Yeah, that guy was seriously "threatened".   Why does Chicago have such a high murder rate, if guns save lives?  Think maybe those people are being murdered as a result of guns being so handy?

QuoteI know there are many that would jump for joy if all guns were made to be illegal. Of course, they do not take into consideration the need to hunt in order to control animal populations. Not everyone lives in cites, nor wants to.

I have never advocated banning guns and in I used to own one.  What I have a problem with are the gun happy idiots, who think that more guns will solve problems.  While people may have a right to own a gun, they seem to forget that with rights come  responsibilities, such as not leaving guns wear kids can get them or knowing what you're shooting at, before pulling the trigger.

Also, let's not forget that the 2nd amendment dates back to the times when the U.S. did not have much of a military and relied on militias.  Back then, the guns were also muzzle loaders, which tended to be inaccurate and slow loading.  There is absolutely no justification for a civilian to have an functioning assault rifle.  There is no legitimate use for it.
Don't forget some of the activities of the "protection from the government" types, such as Waco, Oklahoma City and many more.

QuoteIt is simple.
$$$$$$$$$
It has always astounded me that to get good health insurance you have to probably compromise somewhere else in your employment.  i.e. wages.

Or not facing bankruptcy due to medical expenses.

One thing a lot of people forget is things cost money.  One way or another they have to be paid for, either directly, through insurance or taxes.  There is no escaping that fact.  Now here, health care is covered through taxes.  I don't have to worry about which insurance company covers what.  It's just available to all.  However, one thing that's abundantly clear is the U.S. system is severely broken and it was long before Obama became president.  It has the highest cost, yet fails to provide health care to so many.  In Ontario, you're covered if you're still breathing.  Is it perfect here?  No, there are things that can be improved, but I never have to worry about having the money to go see a doctor or stay in a hospital.

The Germany banned guns thing is frequently brought up in gun control arguments. Its not true and in fact in 1938 they made it easier to own and register guns, unless you were Jewish:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/26/ben-carson/fact-checking-ben-carson-nazi-guns/

To summarize.

1. Gun sales and registration were banned after World War 1 (likely because they thought they would be used against occupying troops)
2. A 1928 gun law reversed most of this and people could buy and register guns again
3. Nevertheless, much of the population retained guns all through the ban. WW1 Veterans simply walked home with their Government issued rifles.
4. In 1933 the Nazis came to power
5. In 1938 the Hitler Government further expanded and relaxed gun laws

Please check the information we use in debates and let's do our best to keep history as accurate as we can.

Quote from: AnneK on June 08, 2017, 11:14:33 AM
In Canda, guns are not banned.  However, we do things that lead to responsible gun ownership.  For example, before I bought that rifle, I took a gun safety course.  How many Americans have done that?  Carry permits, for handguns, are hard to come by and required a thorough background check.  Compare that to the Newton school shooting a few years back.  The guy that did that was known to be psychotic.  Yet despite that, his mother thought it would be a good idea for him to have access to guns.  Well, she was his first victim.  Just the other day, I heard about a 3 year old, who shot a 2 YO.  How is that responsible gun ownership, when pre-schoolers can grab a gun?  What about those stand your ground laws, where claiming you felt threatened can get you off for murder.  You may recall that guy in Florida, a couple of years back, who actually pursued the guy he killed, even after being told by police to stop following him.  Yeah, that guy was seriously "threatened".   Why does Chicago have such a high murder rate, if guns save lives?  Think maybe those people are being murdered as a result of guns being so handy?

Well In Texas to have a permit to carry you have to take a weapon safety course,its.mandatory. Chicago is a result of gun bans that affect the citizens not the bad guys,see the bad guys will always have access to weapons thanks to the CIA. When I was little if I touched a weapon without permission I got my ass beat,in Texas  we try too teach our young to respect the weapon and also teach em how too shoot. Gun ownership comes with responsibility that most tend to forget.

Hate to break the myth that muzzle loaders were slow loading the applachian men could load one very fast,and most men could also,those men could load one so fast your head would spin,I've loaded a muzzle loader pistol and did it in 10 sec.  If your going to try and make a statement about past gun ownership you need to know your history,for I know it very well for that was my main area of study the founding and keeping this country from the hands of foreign bankers,they financed 3 wars and lost,backed the south and lost,so they went after the.pockets of northern politicians instead,took em a 100 yrs but they finally control our country through fiat currency.

See in the USA gun ownership is not just a right,but it's also to protect us,for when the bad guys are the only one with guns your toast period. This right makes the USA  safer then any other country out there.  If you don't want to own a weapon that's your right,just don't try and take that right away.from me. That's the problem with progressives they want to infringe on the rights of another individual and force their agenda down our throats when we don't want nothing to do with it. If you want to be progressive do it around other progressives and leave the majority of us alone,y'all have California, NYC, Oregon, Washington,we have the rest of the country and that's what makes the international bankers p.o.'d.

Like I said I have had family here 100 yrs before their was a USA and they escaped from tyranny for freedom.

QuoteThis right makes the USA  safer then any other country out there.

Yep, that's why the murder rate is so high.  That's why you have kids shooting kids.  That's why you had Sandyhook.


One other things, many of the guns used in crime in Canada were smuggled in from the U.S., where it's all too easy for people to even buy multiple guns.

Quote from: RobynD on June 08, 2017, 12:36:36 PM
The Germany banned guns thing is frequently brought up in gun control arguments. Its not true and in fact in 1938 they made it easier to own and register guns, unless you were Jewish:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/26/ben-carson/fact-checking-ben-carson-nazi-guns/

To summarize.

1. Gun sales and registration were banned after World War 1 (likely because they thought they would be used against occupying troops)
2. A 1928 gun law reversed most of this and people could buy and register guns again
3. Nevertheless, much of the population retained guns all through the ban. WW1 Veterans simply walked home with their Government issued rifles.
4. In 1933 the Nazis came to power
5. In 1938 the Hitler Government further expanded and relaxed gun laws

Please check the information we use in debates and let's do our best to keep history as accurate as we can.

That's not the history I read,I read German history and Hitler had all weapons checked into the local police stations and when all weapons were out of the hands of the citizens he took supreme power for their was no one to challenge their authority.... I  know my facts,I'm a history buff and studied more history then those who teach it.
I also fact check my sources before posting to make sure my information is correct.
So when I mention Germany I have my facts  from the tons of books I read for we had no Internet back then.

Quote from: AnneK on June 08, 2017, 01:04:24 PM
Yep, that's why the murder rate is so high.  That's why you have kids shooting kids.  That's why you had Sandyhook.

Sandyhook was a hoax, the FBI came out and admitted it was a drill they were running,what's weird is one of the lady's who had her picture took showed up at other shootings. No one was killed that day for the school they were running drills at was closed down and had no students in class there. I read all the information that came out and it was fake news  used to try and ban all weapons and that failed and we no longer here about sandyhook.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 08, 2017, 01:04:55 PM

That's not the history I read,I read German history and Hitler had all weapons checked into the local police stations and when all weapons were out of the hands of the citizens he took supreme power for their was no one to challenge their authority.... I  know my facts,I'm a history buff and studied more history then those who teach it.
I also fact check my sources before posting to make sure my information is correct.
So when I mention Germany I have my facts  from the tons of books I read for we had no Internet back then.

Please cite your source.

You might be confused with the Jewish racial laws that restricted gun ownership for them. Indeed by 1938 Jewish people had lost most freedoms in that society. People ask if the jewish population could have mounted some sort of armed resistance. That is pretty unlikely and most of their restrictions were implemented piecemeal over the 30s. By 1938 it would have been wise in hindsight to leave Germany as soon as possible. (Sadly, not enough did or could)

We can have opinions on the facts and their effects on society, but facts are facts.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 08, 2017, 01:08:38 PM


Sandyhook was a hoax, the FBI came out and admitted it was a drill they were running,what's weird is one of the lady's who had her picture took showed up at other shootings. No one was killed that day for the school they were running drills at was closed down and had no students in class there. I read all the information that came out and it was fake news  used to try and ban all weapons and that failed and we no longer here about sandyhook.

If we are stooping so low as to call the factual murder of school children a hoax, perhaps it's time for rational people to step away.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 08, 2017, 01:08:38 PM


Sandyhook was a hoax, the FBI came out and admitted it was a drill they were running,what's weird is one of the lady's who had her picture took showed up at other shootings. No one was killed that day for the school they were running drills at was closed down and had no students in class there. I read all the information that came out and it was fake news  used to try and ban all weapons and that failed and we no longer here about sandyhook.

oh girl you tried it. First your coded language about Muslims and now the death of children was a hoax? Let me guess Alex Jones taught you that right?  ::) You can have this thread all to your self.

Quote from: Deborah on June 08, 2017, 01:38:27 PM
If we are stooping so low as to call the factual murder of school children a hoax, perhaps it's time for rational people to step away.

I agree 100%.  This nonsense should have been shut down a long time ago.

Sandy hook  hoax was all over the newspapers that's where I got my source on this,there was one woman who was at 3 different shootings that's how this broke loose, it was staged to get congress to make a Australia gun grab and blew up in there faces. Not all news is fact we have found out some news groups stage fake news to push an agenda,it's lIke the propaganda that got Lenin and Hitler into power pull enough on people's heart strings and they give all their freedoms to a govt.

See I pay attention for a reason and that reason is my own,I've known things before they happen which has floored alot of people that know me. I don't play in Alex Jones circles for I know more then he does. My daddy taught me to pay attention to what goes on around me.

911 was staged by the US govt to get people to go along with war in the middle east and Afghanistan  and it worked, I  knew this 20 yrs before it happened and had people come up too me and ask how did I know.

I'm not a novice when it comes to history and our govt.for I've studied others as well and that's how I know alot for history repeats  itself.

So call me what you want,I'm used to it.

Oh my!   And this is the best example of standing up for a political party's true colors? 

Psychic powers?  Really good way to represent for the GOP.

Fascinating revelations!

Thread Locked.

I allowed the thread to run as long as it was not insulting or bashing of people, no matter how naive some comments may be.

However it has now gone into delusion and insulting the memory of the dead and I have had enough.

Locked